Greg Dunlap 0:02 So I know a lot of people that I know probably don't realize this about me, but I am a really huge fan of reality competition TV shows. I mean anything where you vote people out week after week, and then pick a winner at the end? I will watch it, and of all of those my favorite by far is Survivor. I've been watching it since its first season aired 20 years ago, and this year, it just celebrated its 40th season. In order to just kind of really steep myself in in this event, I joined the Patreon of Rob Has A Podcast, which is a podcast network that was founded by a former survivor player named Rob Cesternino. And its fans call it RHAP. It's kind of an army of podcasters that cover reality shows across the spectrum. And I knew that as a patron I would be supporting some really entertaining content that I wanted to consume. But what I didn't really expect was that there's a really interesting and passionate community of fans behind these shows. And the Rob Has A Podcast network. And so I have asked Rob to come on and talk to us about it and how his community came together. So welcome to the podcast, Rob. Rob Cesternino 1:12 Greg, thank you for having me. Greg Dunlap 1:14 Yeah, thanks a lot for taking the time. So I know that you've gotten into this really extensively on some other podcasts. Rob Cesternino 1:22 But not on this one yet. Greg Dunlap 1:24 Not on this one. That's right. But some of those other podcasts are a couple of hours. And so could you briefly talk about your path coming off your second season of Survivor to sort of getting to become a podcaster and starting RHAP. Rob Cesternino 1:42 Sure. My background is that I was somebody who was a crazy nut about all of these shows. I started watching Survivor in the very first season back in 2000 and I was hooked. And I really wanted to be a person to go and be on one of these shows. I was working in insurance, and it was very boring. And I thought "Boy, this would be a great way to really shake things up in my life to go and be a contestant on one of these shows. And then if I can just do that, surely, you know, that will make my life more exciting and Yeah, that'll open some doors for me." And so I did ultimately get on the show Survivor. I went to go do that in the year 2002. and ended up getting very close, but no cigar to win Survivor. And then I got invited back to play Survivor again a year later in 2003, did not get as close and got much further away. And then was basically done with playing Survivor. Then I was sort of at a crossroads of boy, well, that did not open up as many doors as I thought it was going to. And now I don't know what to do with the rest of my life. I had been approached actually by somebody who was a producer who was working in Los Angeles, and he was developing some sort of a company to try to like figure out something to do with reality people who sort of like had some notoriety, but not really any direction or purpose. Maybe there was something that you could do with people that came off a reality show. So I ended up moving out to Los Angeles, and working at this company, and, you know, TLDR, there's not anything to do with reality people in terms of having a company. That company went out of business, but I made a lot of good relationships and started working with the people from that company. And we ended up getting into creating online content when YouTube really started up. And we worked on, you know, a ton of different web series and started to get some traction with that. I really like had a sort of second college experience, sort of like going to film school. You know, I would learn how to shoot video and edit and market and do all sorts of different skill sets in terms of what you would do with online content. And really, started to have a little bit of another skill set that I ended up picking up and ultimately that company went out of business in 2008 when so many different things ended up losing funding. Around the time of the start of the last decade around 2009 or 2010, I was without any sort of job prospects or anything going on. And I ended up saying, "Hey, why don't I look back at you know, a former passion of mine" which was Survivor. At the time, there was a really big anniversary season coming up for the 10th anniversary of Survivor, and I thought that might be a good idea to sort of show people that I was doing something. So I started this podcast up to talk about TV shows that I was watching, more than anything as sort of like a resume piece. If I went for a job somewhere, that then they could say, well, what have you done? I said, well look at this, I do my own podcast. And I thought that that would be impressive to people. And ultimately, it was not an impressive resume piece for anybody. But it started something that has developed into, you know, my full time occupation over the course of these last 10 years. Greg Dunlap 5:23 At that time, podcasting was really kind of a new form, wasn't it? Like, what was the world of podcasting like, at that point? Rob Cesternino 5:31 There were a few podcasts. I mean, I think that podcasting dates back to 2004, was like the very first podcast. But you know, TV podcasting got a really big boon, no pun intended, with the rise of Lost where that became like the first show to have a ton of episodic podcast discussion about it. As Lost grew in popularity, there was more discussion. That really was a true like water cooler show that really earned a ton of different podcast conversation, and people like wanting to break down each episode and talk about different things that were happening. And so I got into a lot of podcasting. Also another passion of mine is sports. There is a lot of podcasting that came out of that. And then also, Bill Simmons had his podcast, Adam Carolla started to get into podcasting around that time. So I was listening to a lot of podcasts between like 2007 and 2009 at the time, when I first started to play around with doing my own podcast. Greg Dunlap 6:43 I mean, it makes sense that Lost would be a driver for that, this kind of show that, you know, people were really getting into analyzing and digging into and stuff like that. I mean, in a way that kind of carries into Survivor where, you know, you start digging into the strategy and speak you can really like just like nerd out into nerd out on it in depth. Rob Cesternino 7:04 Yeah. In its inception, I mean, Survivor was water cooler conversation, and for younger listeners, like the idea of water cooler television was "Oh, this is the show that everybody is talking about at work the next day after it airs around the water cooler." Now in 2020, people don't actually go to work or have or share an office so that this is you know, something that's probably lost. But I do think that podcasts have sort of come into that space. And podcasts are sort of where you go, when you want to hear your friends talk about something that just happened that you saw on television, whether it's sports or something that's from a television show. Greg Dunlap 7:49 Were you the only one doing a podcast about Survivor at that time? Like now, it seems like everybody and their brother and all of the former Survivors are running podcasts. Rob Cesternino 7:58 I know I wasn't the first. I believe that the Joanne and Stacy podcast is probably attributed as being the first Survivor podcast, but there were at least like three or four other podcasts at the time, when I started up mine. So I have been on for a long time, and not everything that had been started then it's still going, but I was not the first. Greg Dunlap 8:25 Okay. When did you kind of start figuring out that people were listening, like realizing that you had started building an audience. Rob Cesternino 8:34 So in the very first, you know, initial days of the podcast, I think that a lot of the interaction that we would have would happen on Facebook and on Twitter in terms of people like writing back to us. And in the early days of social media, for people who are more newcomers to especially platforms like Twitter, in its inception, in the earlier days, it was a much more friendly place where the people who were on these platforms, were looking to engage and have conversation, and there was very little arguing and not so much negativity on these platforms. So it was a great place to be able to launch conversations and tell people, "Hey, if you heard the show, and you liked it, if you have a question, send it to us on this platform." And we had a Facebook page, which when Facebook pages were first starting, they were a little bit more that they were like groups, where if you have a Facebook page now if you're not the page creator, you can't really start discussion topics where you could on a Facebook page. It was a little bit more like a message board in the early days of Facebook pages, and there was a lot of the Rob Has A Podcast initial community built, like in those first couple years of the Facebook page like 2010, 2011, 2012. Greg Dunlap 10:11 At some point you started, you know, there's a difference between, like, you've got a bunch of people who are interacting with you, who are your fans, and you trying to grow that into something that's sort of a community that, you know, you're on Patreon now. So obviously, you're monetizing it. But you know, that's, that's a community that you kind of own or grow or manage yourself. What did that sort of evolution look like? Rob Cesternino 10:52 So the evolution of it, and I think that evolution is probably a better word than long term strategy. Like, that's how evolution ends up taking place in nature, where it's not like, "Okay, well, 10,000 years from now, here's where this species is gonna get to." It ends up just sort of developing over time out of necessity. I had this podcast, and I love doing it, and that ended up taking up more and more of my time, and people enjoyed that. So there was like, this great, sort of like a feedback loop where people were being, you know, they like the content I was putting out, they said give us more. I was like, okay, I like making this. So I will make more. And it was like this nice feedback loop that we had developing. But in the real world, I was, you know, still working at a company that one of the producers that I had started working with had started and that company was having some problems. And eventually, I got let go from my day job in December of 2013. And I was really upset about the whole the whole thing, because while I love doing the podcast, there was not the kind of monetization coming in, that was going to be able to support my family. I was married at the time, we just had our first son that year. And I kind of felt like boy, I feel not great, I feel kind of like a loser right now. Because I, you know, in my 30s, and out of a job, and this is not great. And so, I was at a bit of a crossroads of, should I give up what I've built so far, and then pursue some sort of like a meaningful day job where I would basically go work for somebody else, or could I potentially get to a next level of this podcast, to potentially do that. And so I decided to give that a try. And that was that the time that I started to look into, and seriously consider doing the Patreon. And that really changed everything in terms of the podcast. And what I did not realize at the time, was really the start of the community of patrons that we would build at that time, because I thought we had a community then. But what I didn't realize until we got started with having a private Facebook group was oh, this is where the community lives. Greg Dunlap 13:37 Patreon was itself a pretty new platform at that. Yeah, too, right? Rob Cesternino 13:40 Yes, I think I was a pretty early adopter. I mean, I don't know necessarily how many people they had at the time when I got started. But back in, you know, 2013, I had gotten a phone call from somebody who worked at Patreon, which, if anybody is not familiar with what Patreon does, it's basically like a Kickstarter that can be on monthly increments where a a group of fans can crowdfund a creator or a series. And so I got a call from somebody who worked at Patreon in 2013, who was a fan of Big Brother, and his name was Cole and he said that, "Hey, I really enjoy the Big Brother podcast, you're the type of person that should be on Patreon." I was like, "People are gonna pay for podcasts? Why would they do that? That doesn't make sense." And so I didn't throw out the phone number or, you know, or the contact info, and I sort of kept that at the back of my head. But what I realized was that when it was a question of, yeah, I don't know if I can do this anymore, I want to, you know, make the decision to do this all the time. You know, can you help support this? People were very invested in seeing me continue on to produce the content that they were enjoying, Greg Dunlap 15:05 So one of the benefits that you've given for people who become patrons of Rob HAs A Podcast is the private Facebook group, which is basically where the community around your patrons has built. First of all, when you first started the Patreon, was that where you started collecting it? Or did you try other things at first? Or was it all just that's the way it's been from the beginning. Rob Cesternino 15:31 So that's really the way it was from the beginning. I wish I could say it was from design, or from like, day one, I think it was probably from a day 10 or something like that we started Patreon. And then I think then we said, "Oh, we should then add people to the Facebook group, who are our patrons will make up a patron group and then go from there." And that was in the very early days of 2014. And it's hard to do. There is no integration between Patreon API and Facebook. So Greg Dunlap 16:09 Even still, today, there isn't. Rob Cesternino 16:11 Still today, yeah, manually adding people. You have issues where people are no longer patrons, but still in Facebook groups. And so it is not the easiest thing. But it was great for people to find each other. And I really wish I could take more credit for this. But I can't. We just had such a ... the first 100 or 200 people that joined, they were so excited to get to meet each other. "Hey, you like this thing? I didn't know anybody else that liked this thing like I do." And not just Rob Has A Podcast, but also Survivor and all the different reality shows that we talk about. And then from there also, "Oh, you like this other thing? I don't know anybody else that also likes this." And people made friendships that still to this day, are amazing friendships where people then turned into like, "Hey, I have to come see you. We have to interact." or "I didn't know you were in my city" or "I'll fly across the country or around the world to know so we can get to meet in person." Greg Dunlap 17:24 Yeah, it's kind of crazy. I mean, I've been part of other fandoms that develop that way. Like I'm in the pinball community, right, competitive pinball. And it was the same thing, like when when the internet first started, and we were on Usenet at the time, and we discovered all of the pinball fans, and then we started going to tournaments all together. And crazy, how online allows all of that disparate stuff to happen. And you got to kind of just watch that as well around this stuff that you were producing. Rob Cesternino 17:58 Yeah, it was really wild to see just how much I mean, there would be, you know, thousand comment threads of people just talking and running jokes, and all sorts of stuff. The first couple of years were just really incredible to watch this community just blossom. Greg Dunlap 18:22 So you've said that you didn't really have a vision or a grand plan when you first started as far as the community or managing or stuff like that. But over the years what has grown into your vision, or your plans or your goals as far as that community? What do you want it to be all of that sort of thing. Rob Cesternino 18:45 There's been a lot of challenges that with the community. I look back to those early days of starting the Facebook group, and I look back at them like so fondly. It was definitely a less polarized time where not even to speak to like the political climate, but the platforms were just much more fun in terms of people did not go to Facebook to argue, or social media to argue. You went there to share interests. Not necessarily to fight or defend or anything else that's like, conflict on these social networks. So that's been probably the biggest challenge in terms of building a community over these years is just just the tenor of conversation on the internet has really devolved over the time that I've been doing the podcast. Greg Dunlap 19:53 Yeah, I think you see that spill out not just from you, but to the people who have been on the shows like the people who have played on Survivor, Big Brother, The Challenge, etc. I mean, you were lucky, because none of this stuff really existed when you played but, you know, I've seen I've seen that spill out in that direction as well. Rob Cesternino 20:11 Yeah, it's, you know, everything has become political in every facet of the society. But, you know, in a lot of ways the exercise of talking politics is extremely tribal. Really the the irony is that with, you know, Seth Godin, his book Tribes was very inspirational for me in the early days of doing Rob Has A Podcast and building the community in terms of how tribes look at each other. It's us versus them. And then you're trying to build up a strong tribe of your own in your community. But when you know, everything on the internet is just so tribal, to begin with, it's very hard to unite your own tribe, when people are already so divided and at odds. Greg Dunlap 21:12 Yeah, it's interesting, because we were just talking about how we've seen these tribes come together around common interests. But it seems almost like the way that people are organizing themselves online has kind of shifted over the years. And that's contributed to some of the tenor of online discussion we've seen on these platforms, combined with the fact that the platforms aren't really building themselves as a place to have, you know, nuanced conversations to begin with, either. Rob Cesternino 21:44 Yeah. It's very difficult. And I think that what I have tried to do in terms of my communities is just to be focused more on the things that bring us together, rather than the things that could potentially tear us apart. Greg Dunlap 22:05 I've noticed that on the Facebook groups, your moderation team has has been pretty hands off. I've seen very, very little active moderation on the Facebook group. And it's worked out for you, and I've seen lots of places where it hasn't worked out very well, where hands off moderation has led to chaos. What do you think contributes to the fact that that has worked out well for you and your community? Rob Cesternino 22:34 So I think there's a few things. I think one is that we have had longevity. You know, we're six plus years of having our Facebook group, and I think that there are just a lot of people that really care about it. So I feel like there's a lot of self moderation that happens, where people are pretty good at knowing when something is out of touch with the way that we try to conduct ourselves in the different Facebook groups that we've established. And so I think that a big part of it. Also, I do think that we have a strong moderation team. I do think that while we are hands off, I like to think that it's not necessarily that we are eyes off the ball. If somebody flags a potential comment, we have a moderator chat where we're often "Okay, hold on, this is a developing situation, let's keep an eye on this. Let's see if this escalates. All right, let them just blow off their steam. Okay, fine, it seems like this is de-escalating." So we try not to step in, unless things have like really gotten out of control. And then we can go ahead and lock the thread or give a reason why we're locking a thread. This is you know, this is a personal attack or for whatever reason. Because, you know, it doesn't necessarily even have to be about when we're talking about politics or hot button issues. Somebody could come in with like, "Hey, I hate this survivor." I always try to push to the group "Hey, tell us what you love. Don't tell us what you hate." Because that way nobody will be like, I love I love this person. Nobody's gonna argue with you about how much you love something, but when you come in, "Oh, I hate this guest on the podcast", that's from a negative place. I feel like that's where most conflict starts. Greg Dunlap 24:40 I've definitely noticed that most of the things that I've seen tend to be around what somebody did on the show yesterday or people's feelings about a particular player and that sort of thing. The politics stuff is actually much lower key I've seen on the groups. Rob Cesternino 24:57 Yeah, we have a thread about politics for those that wanted to discuss issues where they can go to. But it's sort of like an opt in type of atmosphere with that, where it is started by one particular account, which I invite people to mute if they do not want to hear that, and sort of try to direct all of like, the political conversation to that particular thread and sort of like, enter at your own risk. So that's one way that we've tried to deal with it. But I do feel like there's so many other places on Facebook where people have the ability to discuss their political worldviews in everybody's own, you know, particular echo chamber. There's so many other places. Why are you coming here to discuss that, I always like to make, you know, somebody's got a whole long post about something? And then "Sir, this is a Wendy's." Greg Dunlap 26:11 Yeah, and I mean, I think that's especially true in a situation where we're talking about people who are paying to enter this group, right? Nobody gets into the group without subscribing to the Patreon. So in some ways, it's a little self-selecting, I would think. Rob Cesternino 26:24 Yeah, it's self-selecting. And I think that part of what we offer here is that it is curated conversation with people who are here to talk about this specific thing. And we're not going to tolerate somebody who is going to be out of control or looking to pick fights. It's a nice place to hang out and talk about this. If this is something that you particularly care about, you know, we are your friends from the internet, that you get to talk about your favorite shows with. Greg Dunlap 26:56 Another thing that you've done, that's a part of this, and I feel like it contributes to the feeling of community within that group, is you do a lot of interaction with the fans. Be it at the live events, or with your call-in events like Facebook Friday and the Patroncast. And recently, you've been doing things like these game nights with patrons. Do you feel like that's also something that contributes to this feeling of community in the group, Rob Cesternino 27:26 I'm glad you brought up the live events, because that's something you know, obviously, with 2020 being the year that it was, that has been a big loss for our community. Because I felt like when we do the live events ... we basically have a live viewing of a Survivor episode or a Big Brother episode, and we have alumni come out, and it would be a big get together of you know, 300 of your closest friends from the internet. You would go there and like, like, "Oh, I'm so and so", you're placing a real face with the avatar. And I think that so much of the conflict online happens between you know, this isn't a real person, this is an avatar that I'm fighting with. But you wouldn't have this conversation in the same way if you were on a zoom call with one another, if you were even just looking at the other person. So the fact that we have so many people who had met face to face has been, I think, is a real secret sauce in our strong community where so many people know each other from all the various events that we've done over the years. But because of COVID, we've had to cancel a number of events. We had two events that we had scheduled. One in, I think it was the first week of April, and one which I think was going to be the last week of April. We have to cancel both of those events as things started to really escalate with COVID. I'm not sure when we're going to be able to get back together and do one in person. So one of the things that I've been trying to do is more virtual type events with the patrons for a number of different reasons. One, I love to have more offerings to give people to thank them for supporting the content. But I also think that it's great when people get to not only have interaction with with me if that's something that they want, but more especially, I love it when people are able to meet other people in the group. And I think that is a real secret to this. The cohesiveness of the group is the more that we can turn a picture, a little avatar in the group into a real person, that you know what they sound like, you know a little bit about them, that's a real person. And that's more of a connection to what we're doing. And it's a tighter community, the more you can sort of flesh out those little like, you know, Facebook and Twitter avatars into real people. And then when they post a picture, or they post a comment, you're responding back and talking with a real person. Greg Dunlap 30:25 No, and it's totally happened. So they built this online game Sequester, which I know you're familiar with that. And a bunch of a bunch of random patrons all submitted to play together. And we all played together, and it was fun. But those 20 people, now we have a group chat that become very, very tight, we're all super close together. And I think that's true. All of these random people who I never knew before, it, you know, were able to be brought together. Because it's a very diverse group, in age and all sorts of other ways. And we've all found that common ground. Rob Cesternino 31:12 Yeah. So I think that's a really fun thing, when you know, this started as, "Okay, I just like this podcast" but all of a sudden, now, you're part of a network of people around the world, who also share this interest with you. Greg Dunlap 31:29 So you talked about how Seth Godin, his book was a inspiration for you when you first started. As time has gone on, have there been other communities that you've taken inspiration from, or that you've looked up to, and tried to bring their principles into your own community? Rob Cesternino 31:45 You know, I wish I could say that there were some that really stood out to me. But the problem has been that Rob Has A Podcast has consumed so much of my time, and I have not really, you know, it's been at the expense of many of my other interests. And so, I have not really been able to be an active part of too many other communities. This time in my life, when this happened, this also happened to be when my wife and I have started to raise two little boys, who are now five and seven. And so a lot of the other time that I would have to spend pursuing my interests have now gone into being doing a lot of dad stuff. Greg Dunlap 32:34 And doing 12 podcasts a week. Greg Dunlap 32:38 Right. It's either, you know, I'm either dad or, you know, at RHAP. Greg Dunlap 32:42 One of the things about reality TV is that in a lot of years prior to this, it was very much simple, escapist entertainment. But you know, as in the rest of the world, in the last several years, a lot of the issues that are affecting the rest of the world have been brought into this world too. There's been a lot of discussion about representation of people of color, from different backgrounds on the shows. Not just on screen, but behind the scenes. In the editing process. People who have played before sharing their experiences that were maybe not so great. These are serious issues that have been surfaced as a part of this and how has those things affected your approach to your community and your fans and how you even build your podcasts and stuff like that in the last few years? Rob Cesternino 33:42 Yeah, well, especially this year, in 2020. This was such a big issue after everything that we saw this summer in the wake of the George Floyd protests. And we only in the last couple of years, and this is a big mea culpa on my part, was that this was an issue that I was especially aware of. Like I didn't know, as a content creator, that this was something that I should be talking about or discussing. And I'm really glad that we have the opportunity to be able to use this platform to be able to give voice to more people to be able to speak their truth about things that they've experienced. Whether we're talking about contestants that are on the show, or that we've really increased the oster of podcasters that we have to try to create a much more diverse group of people who are able to talk about the shows from various different perspectives. And while people may not agree with every single person that's on the panel, I think that that makes us a better group to be able to have the different viewpoints be brought to the table. As opposed to, you know, a fewer number of viewpoints that we get to hear about over the course of like a long season of Big Brother, for instance. I love hearing from all sorts of different people about what they're seeing. And actually, that, while you may not have noticed this, I am able to that, you know, I noticed that this is going on, because of my unique background. And I think that that just as a listener, I think that's the kind of stuff that I always want to know. Greg Dunlap 35:41 Yeah, I was gonna ask about that, because you did make a big call for submissions for people to join the network as podcasters. This year, I believe you brought in more than you ever have in the past. Rob Cesternino 35:56 I didn't think we were going to find so many good people! Greg Dunlap 36:00 Because usually you have this stable of like 10 or 12 people, and it basically seems like you've kind of doubled here. And you made a very specific plea to bring in much more diverse voices, which you've certainly succeeded in. How has that worked? What kind of challenges or opportunities have come along with it? What's the reaction for people? How has it gone. Rob Cesternino 36:26 So the podcast network is an ensemble. When it started off, it was just me, and then we ended up spinning off more shows and more coverage and getting into things like scripted TV and all sorts of other different reality TV shows that are out there. And then you know, there's an endless appetite of shows that we could potentially be covering. And so as that has happened, we have really grown our roster to the point where, you know, it's a little bit kind of like Saturday Night Live, where we have like the main cast, and then also a bunch of people that are sort of like on the bench that we can go to in a pinch, who are sort of like the featured players along the way. And as we learn who wants to cover what, we have the opportunity to be able to build new podcasts around people who are sort of like, breaking out and having a real connection with the audience. The people that are really doing well on the shows. The issue is just like, kind of like a sports team, is that a lot of times there's just not enough playing time for everybody involved. There's like so many different people that we could probably just come up with a show right now, for them to start doing coverage on, we're just limited by the amount of resources that are available to us in terms of post-production and getting things out. And then also, you know, how well will those new things perform? And is itt necessarily worth the effort to just because somebody would be good? Would that podcast necessarily find an audience? Greg Dunlap 38:13 Not to mention the fact that so many of the shows you cover just aren't doing anything at this point. Rob Cesternino 38:17 That's true, also. Yeah. So there's lots of unique challenges. But you know, we're in a good place in terms of the roster of people that we found who are, you know, excited to podcast about these things with me. Greg Dunlap 38:31 You've been doing this for 10 years now of Rob Has A Podcast and the Patreon has been running for what, six now, I believe. And so, you know, you've grown, you have thousands of patrons. It's been very successful. What are your goals for the future looking forward? What do you what do you see the future of the RHAP community looking like? Rob Cesternino 39:00 Going back to that evolution question. I wish I had a good a good answer about that. I mean, I would love to be able to combine what we're doing with competition shows to be able to continue to provide content around shows that are not necessarily as cyclical. Because what used to keep me up at night was, boy, if Survivor ever goes off the air, I'm gonna have to find a new job. And I think that during this time period, I feel like well, I haven't really had to. Survivor hasn't been on the in you know, we're closing in on six months, and it'll be well over a year, and I think I'm gonna get to still do the podcast. So that's been reassuring. So I would love to continue to develop original, new and interesting content that is hosted by me and then also continue to develop new content that the audience is excited about around people that are not me. Greg Dunlap 40:06 Cool. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time and coming on the show today and sharing your insights with us. Rob Cesternino 40:14 Well Greg I really love what you're doing. I think this is a great idea for a podcast and I'm very excited to see where you go next with this project. Transcribed by https://otter.ai