Michael Franklin TRT 65 minutes [MUSIC] Hello, and welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I’m your host, David Devine. And it’s a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions — Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] David Devine: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Mindful U podcast. Today, we have a guest joining us in the studio today, Dr Michael Franklin. Michael is a Naropa University Professor in the clinical mental health and transpersonal art therapy programs. He has a PhD in expressive therapies from Lesley University. He also has a MA in art therapy from the George Washington University, and has a BA from the University of South Florida, with a double major in studio art and art education. His studio focuses on art, photography, lithography, ceramics and psychology. And it’s really lovely to have you in the studio today with your doggy. So welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Michael Franklin: Thank you so much. It’s great to be here. And I’m really appreciating the way you’ve invited me in and just seeing your rig and your setup, this is pretty cool. David Devine: Yeah, and it was kind of interesting too, because when you walked down here, you saw my drum set, and you’re like, oh, I want to — and I’m like, yeah, afterwards, we can play a little drum. Michael Franklin: Secret to the universe, the drums. David Devine: Someone understands me. Michael Franklin: Everything’s moving. David Devine: That’s right. So to get started, I just wanted to kind of focus from the beginning, you have a lot of degrees. You started with, like a bachelor’s degree, and now you have a doctorate degree. So what I’m curious is, if you can tell us a story of how you started with the focus with the arts and all that, and then you went to like the expressive therapies. Can you tell us what inspired you? What made you want to move forward with these degrees? And you know how you got started? Michael Franklin: So very briefly, when I was young, and particularly in high school, there were a lot of challenges in my life, in my family life, and it was the art room in my high school where I found a lot of refuge and a lot of safety, in fact, to explore what my expressive needs were. And I started realizing how I could communicate to myself, from myself, my inner life. And at the same time, several of my friends were really doing bad things and getting into a lot of trouble. And the art room, and doing artwork was way that I — I kept myself away from them in a way that was kind of socially cool and acknowledged. And so when I got to college, I knew what I had discovered in high school would be worth pursuing in college, and so I did this double major, and I had a really phenomenal art education, both in terms of how to teach art and also how to work with different materials and processes. And I appreciate you naming some of them in the introduction. And I also minored in psychology. And at the time, this is the early 70s, there is really nothing on the radar, at least, where I was about art therapy. So I was doing, intuitively what I needed to do to plant seeds for what eventually led me to, in fact, the field of art therapy. After art school and college, I moved to New York City and tried to be an artist and worked in a pretty high end photography studio, and it was towards the late 70s, so New York was a great place to live with what was going on there. And I decided that I might like to pursue something else, and one day I was helping to teach a photography class for a New York University professor who worked with local people and how to work with their cameras and how to think about making photographs. And on my break, I wandered into the NYU bookstore, and on the shelf were two books on art therapy, and I’m like, what is that? And I stopped, and I picked up the books and read them, and I realized — this is — this is what’s next. So I applied to the George Washington University, was accepted, and had phenomenal teachers, many of whom were pioneers in the field, and I had great colleagues and classmates, some of whom I’m still very close with. And that time in my life, living in Washington, DC, and studying art therapy was exactly what, not only I needed, but this was a soul level agreement, like this is why I’m on this earth. This is my dharma. This is what I’m here to do. And so I graduated, had several jobs in Washington, and then moved back to Florida, where I’m from, and worked there. And then a teaching job came up in Minnesota at The College of St. Teresa in Winona, Minnesota, which is no longer running, they dissolved. It was an all women’s Catholic College, and enrollments weren’t just keeping up. So that ended up being an amazing time, because this was a deeply spiritual community, and they were Franciscan nuns, and they were very service oriented. They were amazing human beings, and also pretty outrageous women for being nuns. They were just always up for adventurous kinds of experiences in terms of discussing ideas and doing like art projects. Then I had another position after that, at Bowling Green State University. Then I got to Naropa. And I did not need a PhD, but I had cancer — prostate cancer, and I’m fine. I’m okay now, and I — I did what people with a life threatening illness often do, and they took inventory of their life. And I just thought, what are some of the things I’d like to accomplish before I leave this body and leave this earth, and one was a PhD. And so my midlife crisis was not a red sports car, but a PhD. The red sports car would have been a lot cheaper and more fun on weekends than doing doctoral work, but I loved what I was able to do in my doctoral studies, and it resulted in the book I wrote, Art as Contemplative Practice: Expressive Pathways to the Self with SUNY Press. David Devine: That’s amazing. Okay, it was quite a journey. Thank you for sharing. So when I first went to Naropa, I think you were still teaching. So you’ve been at Naropa for quite some time now? Michael Franklin: Since 1997. David Devine: Yeah, so I’m curious you kind of sort of just said it that you started teaching at Naropa before you had your doctorate. So you got your doctorate while you’re at Naropa? Michael Franklin: And while I was dealing with cancer. David Devine: And what was your role at Naropa at that time? Were you just the art teacher? Michael Franklin: Oh, no, I was hired in 1997 to be the chair of the graduate art therapy program, which I did for 23 years. David Devine: Oh, wow. Okay. Michael Franklin: And I’m in my 28th year being there. David Devine: Okay, nice, yeah, because I showed up in 2010 and I remember you were like a thing, and you had a studio in the Nalanda campus. Michael Franklin: Still have it. David Devine: That’s awesome. So one thing I’m curious about, in the world of art, there’s so many different ways to express yourself. And in the beginning of this intro, I was talking about, like, all the different types of art you’ve done. I’m curious like, what — what is your main modality? What is your main medium? What inspires you to do art? You know because it sounds like lithography, ceramics, photography, I’m sure you do some painting, it sounds like you do writing. Like, who is Michael Franklin? Michael Franklin: Well, I am drawn to all art materials and all art processes and all — all materials that you work with have their own language. And I love learning the languages of paint, of clay, of printmaking, of photography, and those languages are developmental, just like when you learn to study a language, you begin with the back of a guidebook, and you learn 50 polite words, then you move to being conversational, and then you move to being fluent. And it takes quite a long time to be fluent in lithography and ceramic work or any other art form. But I really do love what is possible with art materials and processes. And I can’t say that I have one favorite if you — if you forced me to give you an answer, I would probably say — David Devine: No forcing here. Michael Franklin: Well — David Devine: You can give me multiple answers. Michael Franklin: Well, I in a playful way, I don’t feel coerced. But I would say that I have an absolute love affair with clay and photography. I still draw a lot. I paint. I work two dimensionally, three dimensionally, and as I said, with film, but clay is home base in many ways, and I keep coming back to it. And I had a great teacher who first introduced me during my undergraduate studies, who used to come to Naropa to teach here, M.C. Richards, who is, I can’t even use past tense because M.C. in my psyche is still an is, not a was. Her teaching, her influence, are still very present in what she was able to transmit to me. David Devine: I really love the idea of how you talked about art and paint has a language, and it’s like, when you’re learning a language, you learn where’s the bathroom and how to say hello and greetings and small conversational things, and then you become fluent. So I was really enjoying that. That really made a lot of sense to me. Because, like, when I’m — when I’m learning art or music, it’s like you have to learn how to hold the drumstick. You don’t just start, like, playing a beat, you know, you have to learn syncopation, independence, you know, there’s a lot of things you got to learn. So it’s weird too, because I think sometimes it can turn people off. They just want to jump right into the creativity, and it’s like, ah, well, you know, to be creative, you kind of have to learn how — you got to, like, have the canvas to be creative upon first. So I really like that idea. So another thing I’m thinking about, too is you’ve been teaching for like, many moons, and you’ve been studying art for a long time as well. And I’m wondering, especially being at Naropa, has your idea of art changed over time, while you have these students coming in and being a teacher, you’re exposed to a lot of different artists and a lot of different styles and creativity. Is there moments where you get students and you’re just — it just like, blows your mind. You’re just like, wow, this is — this is a new breed of artists, or anything like that happen while you’re in the classroom? Michael Franklin: All the time. I have amazing students that I get to work with in the art therapy program. Many of them also come from very disciplined and extensive art backgrounds, and I marvel at their portfolio work, past creations that they show me, and I marvel at being in the studio with them and seeing what they do. You know, one really never knows when and where the teacher will show up. And I keep relearning that with my students, I’m always learning things from them. And with the opportunity to keep engaging with people who come to the program and seeing what they bring and what they do becomes very fertile territory for all kinds of exchanges of ideas and information. But in addition to that, your question about my general thoughts on art is very much related to the way I was trained when I was in Art Education back at the University of South Florida, I had a teacher, a mentor, who I’m still close with today. He’s in his early 90s, Richard Lovelace, who introduced me to the importance of community based arts work. And when I came to Naropa, I was a little frustrated, because contemplative life and practice at Naropa was mostly sitting on the cushion and doing sitting meditation, which for me in the lineage that I practice in, I’m all for, however, the lineage I practice in also believes in social engagement and karma yoga and the idea of Seva, working selflessly to uplift other people. And so I was frustrated with primarily sitting practice without social engagement practice. And so very early on, I fixed that, at least in our program. And in addition to our very excellent meditation education and training component that’s at the center of our curriculum, I also created the Naropa Community Arts Studio in 2001, sadly and poignantly one week after 9/11. I had been working on it for the previous year, but it launched one week after 9/11, and there’s something poetically powerful, sad, vulnerable and also timely about that. Because the studio, the Naropa Community Arts Studio, literally has been thriving since 2001. So in — to my knowledge, it’s the longest running — successfully running, socially engaged program that works directly with our local and regional community at at Naropa University. So that’s quite some time. We’re coming up on our 25th anniversary, which is pretty outrageous, and it’s a very integral part of our — our program, our training, and so I’m trying to create a curriculum with my colleagues in the art therapy program that not only favors excellent clinical training, but also favors the role of the artist in the 21st Century, to be socially engaged, to work with communities, and specifically to explore and research and try and embody the work of a Karma Yoga artist, yogi or Yogini. David Devine: So many labels. Michael Franklin: Yes. David Devine: That’s very interesting. So one thing I noticed when I was looking into you, and I was looking at your bio on the website and all this, is you teach multiple classes — art therapy classes, just art classes. You have studio practicums and all that. And I’m curious if you could tell us about some of these classes that you teach, and also maybe give us an idea of what we would expect if we were a student in your classroom, of like, what we learn, kind of what we experience? Michael Franklin: Well, first, I love coming up with assignments that are transformative, and I think I’ve done a pretty good job at developing assignments that create wakefulness, that create self awareness, as well as awareness of one’s relationship to art, their artist identity, and also beyond themselves to how what’s being learned in assignment applies to being an art therapist and doing art therapy. So that’s — that’s really important to me, to not have dry, arid assignments, but really well irrigated, with excitement, kinds of opportunities for learning. I even say in my syllabi, my goal is for you to fall in love with this assignment. Like, that’s what I hope happens. David Devine: That’s always lovely as a student, you get assigned something and you’re like, yes! Michael Franklin: Yes, I mean, why not have a love affair with — with what you’re studying in your assignment? So in addition to that, I believe in good scholarship, and I believe in doing research and not staying complacent as a faculty member, to keep reviewing and updating and changing your courses. One class I teach is the history and theory of art therapy. I love that class because there’s so much to think about, and there’s so much to choose from when it comes to readings, so that it’s fresh and interesting and exciting. And the title art therapy is two main subjects, art the visual arts, therapy, psychotherapy, counseling and subsumed under each of those discipline areas are many, many, many sub subject categories, plus, at this point in the history of art therapy, there are fields within the field. There are different approaches to how art therapy is practiced. So all these things have to be considered when developing a curriculum and when developing a course and then teaching the class. David Devine: Yeah, I guess we tend to not think about that too much because most of us are probably more student approach, so we think about what we’re learning and not — not about like what is being taught and what is being learned — that’s really interesting. Is it possible to maybe just label a couple other classes you teach? Because I know you teach a couple. Michael Franklin: Yes, well, more than a couple. Another class I teach is a studio class, which allows art therapy students to focus on their artist identity and to really explore the idea of being a contemplatively focused, trans personally focused artist. What does that mean? What does that look like? So there is a lot of space in that course, particularly for people to investigate the relationship between meditation and working with art, materials and processes, contemplative life and practice as an artist, and how to approach that. The best part of this class is that I get to visit each class with each student and have conversations with them about their work. And I always ask them to hold one main question, what are you trying to do in your artwork, and are you doing it? And if not, what is in the way, and what are you doing about that? David Devine: That’s a big question. Michael Franklin: It’s a living question that applies to me in my own artwork. David Devine: Yeah. Michael Franklin: What am I trying to do? And if not, what’s in the way, and what am I doing about that? David Devine: Interesting. I think most artists kind of have that question without even asking it. Michael Franklin: Yes, but since we’re in a classroom space, this is an ongoing background mantra that we’re holding. David Devine: Okay. So I heard you say a little bit about transpersonal. So I just wanted to know, you know, because you are the past chair in the Transpersonal Art Therapy program at Naropa. And I assume everybody knows what art is — everybody that’s listening. But what does it mean to be transpersonal art? You know what I mean, because it’s like, once you add the transpersonal what does that actually mean? So could you explain that to our listener? Michael Franklin: I’ll do my very best — I’ll do my very best because as an art therapist and — and a teacher, all of my course presentations and lectures are filled with visuals, and so when you ask me a question like that, I — I want to show the audience different pictures, but obviously I can’t do that, so my apologies. I’m glad you asked the question, because that’s another favorite course that I teach. I teach transpersonal psychology and in general the word transpersonal, trans, means beyond or through the personal. So there’s even a book called, Paths beyond Ego. It’s an early book, but it holds up. It’s still a good book. So paths beyond ego, or even trans ego, trans egoic, beyond the ego, and ego is not demonized by any means, because it’s important that we strengthen and work with different aspects of ego and understand how it manifests, why it manifests, but to also realize that we’re not always so solid. Ourselves are not so solid. Our identities are not so fixed that there’s more to us. So when you think developmentally, there’s a good question there, developmentally, as a human being, what is our full capacity developmentally? Really, how far is our developmental potential? And in contemplative and religious studies, disciplines, particularly in Buddhism or Hindu Yoga Tantra traditions, the subject of enlightenment comes up. And what is enlightened mind? And that too, for the most part, is a developmental process. And transpersonal psychology is interested in this question, what is our full developmental potential? Transpersonal psychology is interested in what are other ways to self examine our solid identities and perhaps explore who we are beyond these fixed points of view and art is perfectly suited for the inward journey, and are as perfectly suited for taking ourselves apart and putting ourselves back together again. Meditation, science is a subject in transpersonal psychology. Before it was popular with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, which is really getting so much traction now, interesting subject for transpersonal researchers, before it became so popular. There are interests in indigenous peoples and also the topic of cultural appropriation. And also the literature speaks about cultural plagiarism and how to be looking into and studying the brilliance of wisdom traditions from indigenous peoples, but to also simultaneously be very careful about appropriation and plagiarizing their traditions, which is why it’s important to find teachers who are lineage holders, for example, who can help invite someone in to these cultural traditions, the proper way, the right way, and to then, you know, with that mentorship and those transmissions to explore further. David Devine: That’s lovely. As you were speaking, I was hearing about how transpersonal is beyond the personal, and how art is like perfectly established to allow someone to just go really deep inside or really big outside of themselves. And what’s kind of interesting is art without the transpersonal is almost inherently transpersonal. So it’s kind of interesting to even go deeper with the transpersonal and to also have this aspect of it just being like it’s beyond you anyways. Michael Franklin: Well, I think that’s an interesting point. And I would say that there’s always been artists, and the period I’m really interested in is early modernism in Europe and the United States and the artists who are really doing important artistic experimentation. I saw upstairs when I walked into your home, the poster of Wassily Kandinsky, who was completely immersed in studying spiritual aspects of art. David Devine: One of my favorite artists. Michael Franklin: Yes, and he was interested in yoga, so I agree. And in addition to his unique collection of interests that were all feeding what was coming through him in his artwork, there are other artists contemporaries who are also having similar questions and doing similar artistic research. So I just love that period. And so there is an inherent invitation to bring transpersonal curiosity into one’s artistic explorations. For me, it just has always been that way. Art has always been a way to take the inward journey and to also become a better observer of my inner life. And if you think about it, art is really the mind and body wisdom, externalized in lines, shapes, colors, textures and so on, just like music is the externalization of internal emotions. And one of my favorite authors, Suzanne Langer, talks at length about how the arts are the most accurate language for the world of human emotion. And in fact, that’s the purpose of the arts, to articulate human emotion, to show it, and that nothing does it better than the arts, and she particularly focuses on music. David Devine: Yeah, I have — I have this thing where, when I want to listen to music, I ask myself an internal question, what do I want to feel or what do I feel like? And then I follow the feeling towards what I am going to listen to, other than being like, I’m going to listen to this band, which sometimes I do, but most of the time it’s me saying, like, how do I feel? And so I find music that fits the mood of how I’m feeling or how I want to feel. You know, it’s like it could carry me somewhere, or it could facilitate the place I’m already at. Michael Franklin: Well, when I’m teaching about Suzanne Langer, and I’m talking about music and her ideas and relating to visual art, I suggest the musical art form, the blues. It’s not called the yellows, it’s not called the greens, it’s not called the reds, it’s called the blues, and for a very specific reason about what that particular color awakens in us, stimulates in us, provokes in us, and if in a synesthesia kind of way, if you translate the color and the colors of, you know, monochromatic extension of what blues and shades of blues and hues of blues could look like, you get a palette of blues and similar with musicians in that genre, you get a palette, a community of different artists playing this art form that are about certain feeling states that we have named after a color. David Devine: That’s lovely. I love blue, black is my favorite color though. I would paint everything black. Michael Franklin: Black paintings are very hard to do. David Devine: Yeah, I actually just bought, maybe, like a year ago, I bought the fourth darkest black you can buy, and I just bought a couple tubes of it. I just like the absence of color sometimes, which is weird, I’m a very colorful person, but my palette is a — it’s pretty dark. Michael Franklin: I’m with you. I like the nighttime. In the book I wrote, there’s a small section on how I like to go and find caves in different places when I visit, because I not only like to be out and see the light, but I like the dark and feel like what it’s like to go into the interior of the earth. David Devine: Yeah. Michael Franklin: And the quality of silence in a cave is extraordinary. David Devine: Yeah. Michael Franklin: And the darkness inside of a cave is truly extraordinary, David Devine: Yeah, it’s like unmatched. One thing I am curious about is, you know, we’re talking about transpersonal art. What does the transpersonal art therapy program at Naropa offer students, like, what type of program would it be? You know, what type of student would be interested in attending that? Is it artists? Is it therapists? Is it a little bit of both? If there’s just a curious little soul, like what type of student would enroll in such a program? Michael Franklin: So there’s two parts to your question, I’ll take the last part. So this is a generalized statement, and it doesn’t necessarily apply to any applicant. So I am speaking in generalities. Students come to our program, and they have over 30 other choices for other graduate programs, but for the most part, they mostly, or only want to come here. Why is that? Our program, our curricular arc, the way it’s set up, it speaks to the student who is very interested in understanding their interior life and the qualities of how art and meditation and other contemplative practices can cultivate awareness. And the cultivation of awareness, the result of which is greater observation skills. There’s this relationship between observation and awareness. And our students are wanting. They’re hungry. They’re thirsty for both internal opportunities to observe and to become awake and aware and then also to work in ways with other people, to help them awake and become more aware. And many of my colleagues in the transpersonal area, they’re fond of saying, before you sit with a client in extreme states of mind, you need to be able to sit with yourself in your own extreme states of mind, and all other flavors of mind that you might have going on at any one time inside of you. David Devine: It’s very psychologist. Michael Franklin: Well, yeah. I mean, the students who come to our program want to become more aware. They want to become more awake, and they want to take that wakefulness out into the world and to work with future clients across the developmental spectrum. How you practice art therapy, depends on who you’re working with and where you’re working. So if you’re working with four year olds, that’s a very different art therapy approach than if you’re working with people in midlife who are struggling with the ending of a marriage. It’s very different. And so we are training our students to become generalists, as any graduate counseling in art therapy program would do. To become generalists, to begin their careers working in, you know, all kinds of situations with all kinds of populations. As I said, that’s a general response to your question. Probably better — be better to ask some students why they came. David Devine: That was pretty good. So I actually had this thought while you’re talking about the different types of art therapy when it’s with a four year old compared to maybe a 44 year old. And I was thinking about like the art therapy with a four year old is probably trying to prevent trauma or just promote joy and — and creativity and transpersonal experiences beyond ego, kind of like see what their abilities can take them to. And then art therapy with a 44 year old is to help with trauma. It’s almost like you look, the art is to help you look back on things that happen. But with a four year old, someone who has so much more in their life, it’s to help them with what’s gonna happen in their life. So I’m just having this idea of how it could be proactive or retroactive, according to the client, and, you know, not saying, like a 44 year old person can’t also use it to be proactive as well. But that was just a thought I had of just like — Michael Franklin: It’s a good thought. David Devine: The different types of therapy and the directions they can go, it’s like, are we healing, or are we promoting, or — Michael Franklin: I think there’s a good point that you’re making about progressive, retroactive. Sadly, many children have been terribly harmed. They’ve been terribly harmed, and they require a certain kind of art therapy, trauma work. Back to general statements, one of my teachers, who is also a pioneer in the field, Edith Kramer, used to say you have to teach children to work and adults to play. David Devine: Ooh, I love that. Yeah. Michael Franklin: Well, and how can art be a way to show and develop an emerging work ethic in children? And how can art be used as a way for adults to lighten up and loosen up and become a little less serious, a little more playful, and to discover who they are beyond their day to day rigidities? David Devine: Hmm, I’m starting to have this idea that art also has this ability to — to ride the line of discipline and just being creative and fun and whimsical. It’s like you can have both. It can teach you so many awesome core values, and it can also teach you to like let loose and just have fun. So it’s like you can be disciplined while having fun. And — Michael Franklin: My meditation teacher once did a talk, the title was, Discipline is Happiness. And I think you’re exactly right. First of all, as you get moved from thinking of art materials and processes as languages, and you start to get more fluent, you begin to get more serious about what you’re doing and creating art from that kind of fluency, it’s hard work. It’s a slog, and it takes great devotion and commitment and perseverance to explore what it is that’s coming through you and trying to come into the world. It’s hard work. And in addition, art is a whole brain, whole body behavior. It’s — David Devine: Holistic. Michael Franklin: Everything in the body lights up when engaging in any of the arts. My areas is the visual arts and writing. You’re a musician, and there’s a field called neuro esthetics, where there’s great interest in how neurology and neurobiology is affected by the arts, and it’s extensive. And there’s a reason why the technologies of the arts, so to speak, have been around since human consciousness emerged. It goes hand in hand with digging clay and creating clay pots to hold water that were adorned with different kinds of symbols and images, or clapping hands and singing in certain rhythms as a way to bond the community together, or certain dances, oral traditions passed down through carving techniques or weaving techniques. There’s a reason why this behavior has been with us since the beginning and endures until today. And even though there’s, you know, political will to edit the arts out, you can never kill them, them being the arts, you can’t kill it, because it’s so innate to who we are. The drive is always there to express, right, express means, to move out, to show to — to recognize that the arts, single handedly, are one of the main ways that communities connect and stay held together. It’s a social adhesive that very powerfully, powerfully, powerfully holds us together. And I would go as far as to say — David Devine: Love it. Michael Franklin: I would go as far as to say, we are capable of being a very vile species. But what is best about us as a species is the arts. David Devine: I mean, yeah we are very capable of being vile. But if we are capable of doing that, we are also capable of being insanely beautiful, too. I always think of things as like a frequency. You know, it exists in a band, and we can go up or down as much as we can. So — Michael Franklin: I’ve — I’ve always liked working with particularly teenagers when I was doing in patient psych and, you know, young people who are just angry at the world for very good reasons, a lot of the time, and for them to realize that with time, with some discipline and working with art materials and processes in the studio space that I was providing, that they could have tremendous self discovery and connect with parts of themselves that have been literally caked over, crusted over by their anger — David Devine: Justified. Michael Franklin: And to start to see what’s — yes, good word. What’s underneath there? And there’s a lot underneath there and I would never talk them out of their anger, because it’s there for good reason. I just wanted to know — them to know that they were more than that, and that we could work together and, in fact, create artworks that allow for the full range of their emotional life to be expressed. Art Therapy is art in the service of another person. It is not about me in the art therapy world or the art therapy room, I should say. And the world of art therapy is all about art in the service of another person. Not like doing an MFA where it’s you know, only about you doing your own work. David Devine: I see. So I would say that to students who are looking for programs, but I would also tell them that our particular program is profoundly art based. There’s a lot of art experiential work throughout the arc of the curriculum. David Devine: I see. So my next question, what I was wondering, so Naropa University is a contemplative education compared to like just a higher education facility. How does attending a contemplative education type of pedagogy help shape and transform the student while studying in this type of art program. We got art, we got transpersonal art, and then we have contemplative lens on top of a transpersonal art program, like, how — how does that compound into being unique to Naropa? Michael Franklin: So just a slight modification, it would be good for us to say art and counseling or and art and art therapy. David Devine: Okay. Michael Franklin: Because this being a graduate counseling program with a focus in art therapy. What is unique? First of all, in the book I wrote, Artists Contemplative Practice, in the title, contemplative, I’m — I’m very sensitive to words, and so this linguistic sensitivity is always driving me to research etymologies and words. And the word contemplative is really pretty interesting, and the root in contemplative is temple. You know, with temple, con, temple — contemplative. And so the question is, where is the temple? Is it in a synagogue, a church, a mosque? Absolutely. Is it in nature? Absolutely. Could the temple be found while driving in busy traffic? Absolutely. Can the temple be found in art materials and processes? Most definitely. The temple is everywhere, which means contemplative practice leads us to having a contemplative life. Having a contemplative life means that we keep cultivating inner and outer awareness. Wherever we put our awareness, information is waiting to be experienced, learned and metabolized back internally. And equally as important in this idea of a contemplative education is the idea of observation, self observation, which is literally intra personal within the person. Observation, interpersonal observation between two people, as well as the space between them. Community observation, most of my research now focuses on observation and building observation capacity. And the better observers we are, the better everything is, the better food tastes, the better present moment experiences are coming through, walking my sweet little dog, the more — David Devine: It’s like, more meaningful. Michael Franklin: Everything becomes more centered in the present when we are excellent observers. And the arts are such an excellent way to train observation capacity. David Devine: Okay. Michael Franklin: And I think that’s one of the core features of a contemplative education, at least in the graduate art therapy program. David Devine: So it’s not so much of teaching a technique, but it’s — it’s being aware of every aspect of the technique, of like the placement of the hand, the color, the type of medium you’re using, the brush. How do you feel that day? What were you thinking about that day? And it’s like a holistic approach to how an art piece can show up, instead of like what an art piece is showing up as. Michael Franklin: Yes, and therefore the teacher, teachers in our program, as well as I would dare say the whole university, are very adept at how to teach ways of cultivating awareness, how to teach ways of observing internally and externally. There are methods for how to develop awareness and how to develop observational capacity. David Devine: Okay, with all this talk about art therapy, transpersonal art and like counseling aspects, what I’m wondering is, is when a student applies to get, like a graduate or like a master’s degree, what is their like pursuit as in career? Are they entrepreneurs? Are they — want to be counselors? Do they want to be therapists? What do you — what do you notice, like, what kind of career paths are usually at the end of that tunnel? Michael Franklin: All of the above to what you just said. This degree results in all kinds of application. And earlier I had said, in the field of art therapy, there are fields within the field. And so one could be working as an art therapist and a counselor in the school system. One could be working as an art therapist and a counselor in a prison or jail setting. One could be working as a counselor and an art therapist in medical settings or in community based work, for example, within religious and spiritual communities, art therapists could be working in that capacity. I’ve had students over the years who work with industry and are working with CEOs and CFOs and board members to become better at working together rather than competing against each other. Art is a way to really flatten hierarchy and community, situations in community settings. Fields within the field, working with diverse populations, I’ve had students who have graduated working in indigenous communities and on and on and on, working with people who are dealing with addictions, of course, people in private practice who are working with a whole host of challenges that people need help with. Grief and loss, hospice care. Hospice care, I think, is really powerful work, because it’s where the transpersonal model and ideas can be very, very out front, because we’re dealing with the ending of life and the dying process and the big questions, what happens when the body is finished and exhausted? It does — is there consciousness? And does that consciousness survive the body? And if so, what is consciousness? These are all very much related to transpersonal research, particularly consciousness studies, which would have been a good thing to mention earlier. David Devine: Yeah, I can kind of see how the ending of the life, so it’s like a relationship with ego and trans personal is beyond ego, so when you pass away, it seems as though the ego doesn’t go with but consciousness continues. So you’re going to be beyond ego, but — Michael Franklin: Well, careful, because whatever we’ve accumulated in the, you know, spiritual DNA of our being, you know, if we are just greedy and cruel and power hungry, those are karmas that go with us and still have to be worked out. So one way of thinking about it, not everybody ascribes this way of viewing things, but rebirth and reincarnation and rebirth and returning is for the purpose of working through what you maybe started and didn’t finish in a previous incarnation. David Devine: Yeah, that’s true, like the karma is — or not karma, but like being reborn, coming back to the bardo, is the cleansing of the ego, of what you may have done, or a celebration of it. You know, I guess it could go both ways, because it doesn’t always have to be like a negative thing, it could be a lovely thing as well. Michael Franklin: Yeah. David Devine: It could be a bodhisattva. They’re coming back because they’re doing some great jobs. Michael Franklin: My hunch is that I’ve died many, many times, and I have no capacity to have memory of it. You know, sometimes in dreams, I’ve noticed things, but — so I don’t have conscious access to what that was, but I can tell you that it’s important for all of us to try and find what we really love, and to do that in this life, and to do it in a way that uplifts our little corner of the world. David Devine: I love that. So to talk about like reincarnation, I do have one experience. I won’t say it now, but there is one experience I have where I know I was this and I knew I came back and I had this memory. It was like a wake memory. It wasn’t a dream memory. And I was a child and I had this existential crisis crying, and my dad was like, what’s wrong with you? And I’m like, I want to go back to this. And he’s like, dude, you’re freaking me out. Michael Franklin: This is not unusual in transpersonal research that particularly very young children in their dream life are having pretty vivid dreams of past life experiences, and they say things to their parents that are totally confounding, And of course, it's highly debatable if these are provable phenomena, which is a problem with transpersonal psychology, opinion is not necessarily provable. And yet, there are many stories of very young children reporting certain experiences that there's no way they would have awareness of this stuff, even before film and TV. So the veils are thinner with young children, and if there is reincarnation and if there is past life, capacity to be aware of those previous incarnations. It would seem that young children would be more likely to have access than older adults, because we're already so indoctrinated into this realm in way of being, you know, serious adulthood. David Devine: Yeah, the ability to be more transpersonal at a young age or a young mind than at a more conditioned mind. Michael Franklin: Yeah, that raises all kinds of questions with the work of Ken Wilber and pre personal, personal, trans personal, which we really don’t have time to go into, but it’s important that I mention that because there are certain qualities of childhood to try and understand that could look like transpersonal phenomena. But in fact, developmentally or not? So — David Devine: Yeah, I think, I think that’s good to mention too, because it’s hard, it’s hard to determine what children think and directions they go in their heads. So this is a lovely conversation, but I just do have one more question for you, and it’s more — it’s more of a, like, a simple one is, um, I’m curious, like, what type of art are you working with now as like an artist, and what inspires you now and also at the end of that, do you want to shout out, any websites, any work that you’re working on, anything that you’re excited about? Michael Franklin: I just try to do creative behavior, whether it’s cooking or gardening or clay work. I am pretty active as a clay artist, and I create these installation pieces that I don’t know if you saw it, but some years back, I had a show at Naropa, and the title was small, small places to pray, silence, surfaces and clay reliquaries. And I make these clay installation pieces that look like a combination of, you know, a remote reference to like Japanese rock gardens. But if I could shrink myself to be an inch or two tall and walk around these sculptures, it would be a highly contemplative place for my two inch size self. I like thinking that way, and I used to think that way as a child all the time. Just imagine myself teeny tiny and moving around the world with the ants and spiders and so on, and getting along with them. I love to draw and I love photographing. I’m always photographing, always, and I’m really a photographer who follows the idea of Bresson decisive moment, which relates to mindfulness, like the world is moving, there are events that are nanoseconds or microseconds right in front of me, and my awareness, I hope, is open enough and receptive enough to notice this world of nanoseconds moving by and to make a photograph that will be gone in an instant. And I just love that marriage between meditation and mindfulness and applying it to photography and wandering around and being in real attunement with a kind of cultural empathy for the place where I am. And I travel a lot, so I try to be this way wherever I go. I do have a website Art Is Yoga dot com, and on that website, you can see information and reviews of the book I wrote, the art I make, the presentations that I’ve done, the publications that I’ve done. And so it’s sort of like a more dimensional curriculum vitae with pictures, all of which I’ve taken all of the photos on the website. So in terms of other websites, I just say I’m really interested in community based arts and where artists are doing socially engaged work at the moment. You know, nothing’s popping into my head, but searches on those kinds of artists I think are really interesting to do. One — one person, my colleague and friend, Janice Timbotos In Canada, working on art hives, colleague and friend Pat Allen, who is working with her daughter, who is a rabbi, Adina Allen, and working on a very specific studio process that Pat and her colleagues first originated and now is being expanded in new ways of working with spiritual communities. Those are two colleagues that come to mind, but there’s so much more going on, and I wasn’t prepared to bring that — David Devine: On the spot. I had a very lovely conversation with you. You’ve — you’ve definitely inspired me to be a little bit more mindful of my transparency when it comes to my art and my music and my just showing up in artistic expression and in just in life. And — yeah, just really lovely conversation with you today. And I just, I’m really appreciated that you came on and had this conversation with us today and shared with the Naropa podcast. So it’s lovely getting on teachers that I’ve seen around campus since I started going there, you know, like 15 years ago, that have been there longer, you have a legacy. And so it’s really lovely to finally get people on who’ve been here — been in the community for such a long time. So thank you so much. Michael Franklin: Thank you. I’ve really appreciated it, and your generosity with how you’ve asked questions and engaged in conversation is very appreciated. Lastly, I would say the very best art is the most honest art. David Devine: Very true. Thank you so much. You bet [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community, thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates.