Angel Kyodo Williams Sensei [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host, David Devine. And itÕs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:46.23] DAVID: Hello, today I would like to welcome a very special guest to the podcast and the Naropa University. Reverend Angel Kyodo Williams Sensei. She is also a friend to the Naropa community and itÕs an honor to have you speaking with us today. So welcome. [00:01:00.13] ANGEL: Thank you so much. Happy to be here. [00:01:05.06] DAVID: Is there anything else you'd like to highlight about yourself? I know you actually wrote a book called, "Radical Dharma" with Lama Rod Owens and Dr. Jasmine Syedullah. Is that correct? [00:01:15.09] ANGEL: Yes. That is right. [00:01:17.05] DAVID: How long ago was that? [00:01:18.19] ANGEL: Uh we wrote the book - it was published in June 2016. So, its full name is, "Radical Dharma: Talking Race, Love, and Liberation." [00:01:28.01] DAVID: Beautiful. So, yesterday I actually spoke to your friend Lama Rod Owens in this very same room so itÕs a treat to have you here. And, he had a conversation uh Wednesday at Naropa and he was walking into it talking about happiness and he had this reflection moment where he wasn't feeling so happy. And so, I thought it was pretty important to like just ask like how you feeling today? To start it out like that - you know. [00:01:56.19] ANGEL: Yeah me - I am - you know I feel well. I feel - my life is full. There is a lot of moving parts. I am in transition moving from home that I have - a community - I lived in community for many years. And I lived in that home for almost 12 years. And so, it just happened that the date for the move ended up during this time that I am here at Naropa. And so, there is a sense of my - my presence needing to be felt there as well. So, people can ask questions and you all know what itÕs like to move. ItÕs a thing. And so, I feel in the presence of that somewhat rare way I feel as if I am choosing to dance between two places. And so, itÕs a slightly unusual choice for me to do that. And itÕs great. ItÕs what needs to be done. [00:02:53.09] DAVID: Having a real life. [00:02:55.06] ANGEL: I have a very life - a very real life. [00:02:58.03] DAVID: Well thanks for sharing. So, I'd love to start off with what lead you to want to study dharma. Where did you come from kind of like how did you get into it? Where did year hear about it? [00:03:09.07] ANGEL: Uh, I don't know that I really heard about it. I think I really stumbled across it when I was younger, which is great because we are here in the part of the campus that has the art exhibit. I wondered about myself as a younger person that a lot of art that I saw didn't appeal to me. And, you know as we sort of develop and we want to become more complex and layered human beings it was an inquiry of mine to wonder like what is this. And there were other ways in which I found myself different than many people around me. I was uh certainly an introvert. More internal. I've come to realize actually later in life that I was uh much more observing of what was going on around me than it - you know at least people remark that like wow that's pretty observant for a young person. Uh and so I - it was sort of pursuit of wondering about my relationship to art. I at some point ran into some Zen art - what we call Zen art and so it was that word Zen that I had my head when I went to a bookstore and started looking at trying to find something. But, what I found was not a book on Zen art but rather this book on Zen Mind: Beginner's Mind. And, I opened the book and uh I think I finished on the floor of the bookstore there in Manhattan at the time and it made sense to me in all of the ways in which - well not all - you know many of the ways in which I felt myself different from my own community. The aesthetic of my cultural trappings and background. The ways that I felt different were expressed in that book. Something spoke to me there. [00:05:04.19] DAVID: Yeah, oh that is so awesome. [00:05:06.19] ANGEL: It made sense of me. [00:05:08.01] DAVID: That does seem like a beginning book for a lot of people. And itÕs such an easy digestible fun loving just like wow. Very cool, thank you. So, now that you're a teacher and you have like the spiritual practice what are some of the things you face when you take on students, take on the teachings? Are there certain things that you -- have to navigate that you never thought you would or certain things that teach you more now that you are a teacher of the dharma? [00:05:43.23] ANGEL: Well, I was a residential teacher for 7 years. And so that's the home that I am living now. And I joke often that 7 years as a residential teacher - is years as a residential teacher is very different than years as a week to week teacher where someone comes and visits your center. So, I say they are like dog years. Each year is worth 7 years. And so really I've had 49 years of teaching experience. Uh in addition to my other years of teaching experience and I throw myself into that particular configuration. I created that structure that we lived, worked and practiced together. So, it wasn't just that we lived together - we practiced and worked together. And I put myself in that because I was quite interested in -- who we are when we're not trying to be who we say we are. And so, I wanted to see students in all of the facets of their lives. Not just the aspect of themselves that they decided to present to me because they thought well now I am in the practice hall of the dharma center and so now I am a student and that's a teacher and then we take on all of the performances of student and teacher and of course that also challenged me to -- relate to how do I perform? What aspects of performance and you know in this sort of idea of a western dharma. You know what have I taken on as a sense of like oh this is quote unquote how a teacher should show up and so therefore what was there for me to shed? What do I let be seen and in such a - you know small space? [00:07:25.11] DAVID: Yes, it almost seems as though too is what the student shows you when you are in a community. There is a lot more that you get to see them through the spectrum of the emotions and not just how they show up. Oh - I have - I am going to go for this 30 minute sitting. I will be back later. [00:07:46.05] ANGEL: Which often people can bury not only a lot of - nuances of their lives, but a lot of the nuances of their behavior - like who they really show up as. Like how do you show up in relationship and you know itÕs kind of teachers are relegated to that place as kind of like being a therapist and you rely on what people tell you. And, I think I am just not quite as trusting as that. So, I needed to see for myself. I'm like yeah I don't know if you're - that's who really are. I needed to see it all. And so, I got to see it all. I got to see people literally like what they woke up like. And, how they showed up with their partners or who they were dating or like what their relationship was to food and you know - all of these things that I could then make a more comprehensive, complex sentence of like who people were. [00:08:38.20] DAVID: Yeah, and that might inform the teachings you teach these people? [00:08:42.12] ANGEL: That's right. [00:08:43.07] DAVID: Because you are around them so much and you get to -- [00:08:45.13] ANGEL: That's right. [00:08:46.07] DAVID: Dance around that a little bit. Very cool. [00:08:48.21] ANGEL: And not easy. You know for anybody thinking of like don't try this at home. Because intense. Its intense to be in the presence of a teacher anyway. A teacher that is committed to liberation uh and its especially intense to have no place to hide. [00:09:06.05] DAVID: Oh! ItÕs kind of scary. [00:09:09.12] ANGEL: It should be. [00:09:11.02] DAVID: Yeah, I guess so. Taking it on. [00:09:12.04] ANGEL: There is an aspect of it that - there is an aspect of one self that should be uh afraid of it. [00:09:20.01] DAVID: Yeah. There is something that makes me afraid of meeting someone who is dedicated to liberation. There is no messing around with that. That's - but there is something extremely beautiful about that as well. There is this oh my god - they took that on. And that's beautiful and you kind of want - you want some of that I guess. [00:09:40.19] ANGEL: And you have to be willing to get close enough. [00:09:44.17] DAVID: The open heart. [00:09:46.21] ANGEL: And the fire. [00:09:48.17] DAVID: Yeah. There it is. [00:09:50.07] ANGEL: You know so I think a lot of what we do is we talk about the open heart. And we talk about that nice stuff. You know we talk about the things that like make us feel good and you know devotion to our teacher and there is like the rough and rugged stuff you know? There is the ugly stuff. There is the way that you know one shows up when they don't get their way. When they finally realize that they can't manipulate the teacher. The places which people go in which they uh their projections of their parents or their - you know their family of upbringing. Their community of upbringing starts to come out, but you know so we would joke that it would take about 3 months. For people to shed to layer of pretense or performance that would come with - it was like clockwork. So that's one of the things that I learn. ItÕs fascinating. ItÕs that we - we have a rhythm whether we would like to acknowledge it or not. That human beings - there was a consistency to how long a kind of window in which people could hold up - it was one would say that you could not hold up a facade longer than a season. Right, so three months is a season. [00:11:00.16] DAVID: Look at that. [00:11:00.16] ANGEL: So, once you got past a season like something falls away just in a way that seasons do - right? Like something has to turn. And so, emerge again and in that emergence some of the ways in which we performed ourselves have to - have to drop away. We can't - we can't keep them going. [00:11:17.16] DAVID: The connection with the earth and the bio rhythms. Wow -- [00:11:21.00] ANGEL: ItÕs very -- and for years we've seen it. We're like ok - tick, tick, tick. [00:11:27.20] DAVID: You might be noticing something. [00:11:29.15] ANGEL: Yeah. [00:11:30.08] DAVID: Very cool. I was just thinking - so when - when a student has this moment of the layers shedding - things unraveling, being - going deeper within one selves and being able to look at stuff they - hid away. When they are willing to do the work is there like a rapid transformation? Or is it like - like stair step sort of - exponential kind of moment of when you discover it and then you work with it really deeply - it happens and obviously you still want to work to go. But -- [00:12:09.04] ANGEL: You know this is a perennial question. Like gradual enlightenment or sudden enlightenment is a kind of perennial question in the Zen world. And I think many Buddhist traditions - this notion of like which one is it that happens. And I think itÕs both. I think that there is a - perception and I want to just lift up what you said when people are willing. But I can go to a sidebar for a second - my single experience is the reason people don't wake up is because they are not willing. That that's the single thing that gets in people's way. Because they are actually not willing. Whether they say they are or not. They could say it and they could fervently express a wish, a desire but the ego hold that the grip on us is quite strong and quite uh has a lot of momentum and a lot of force. And, we're often not willing - we're not willing to do the work that it takes. [00:13:11.04] DAVID: So, the not willingness is coming from you is that what you're kind of coming with in thinking about? [00:13:18.10] ANGEL: Well -- [00:13:18.21] DAVID: ItÕs like the ego - so it almost seems like the ego is what is saying it wants to be free. But then when you actually confront it then it gets really scared and itÕs like oh maybe not. I don't know if I am ready for this. [00:13:30.13] ANGEL: Well, the ego wants an idea of being free and wants the benefits and the trappings and the perception and the like look at me I am free. I am awake. I am enlightened. [00:13:42.00] DAVID: Look how free I am. [00:13:42.15] ANGEL: I am woke. [00:13:43.22] DAVID: I am so woke right now. [00:13:44.22] ANGEL: So woke, right. But it doesn't want to be confronted. And we will be confronted with the things that feel like that's the domain that I am willing to be confronted. So that's what often happens is people will offer up like - here are the areas that I am willing to be confronted on, but these not so much. And uh that's what living together often reveals right? Like oh no, no, no I meant you to be a teacher of you know my meditation practice, but not to say anything about how I hold my relationships with - with people outside of this space, right? So, if I am being kind of shady or shabby on my romantic relationships - you know not showing up for people or showing up in a way that is ragged you know like they say in L.A. like jagged, right? Then, you can get - as a teacher you get push back with people like - oh yeah not this part. And liberation doesn't have a partial space that it occupies. ItÕs not like ok we're going to be liberated while we're in the practice center and in public but in our private lives and we can - you know be a mess. And, so it asks for more of people - liberation asks more of people than most of us are willing to give. [00:15:03.00] DAVID: Spirit is asking all of you - for all of you and it seems as though Zen has this - you can't just work on one thing. Its everything that you work on. ItÕs all encompassing. [00:15:13.15] ANGEL: Yeah, I think that's true really for all of the dharma traditions for sure. But I think that the collision with capitalism - mutes that. And so, then we have a - form of presenting the dharma that is a commercialized form. ItÕs like would you like fries with that. And if you don't want fries with that - that's ok. We can just get you this other thing even if that's not really the thing that you need. And let's offer you all of the things. Let's market test and figure out what things work for you. How should I say things? You know let's not hurt your feelings too. And - LAUGHS - liberation doesn't look like that. [00:15:59.13] DAVID: Lama Rod was saying dharma isn't sexy. ItÕs not going to be sexy. Its sometimes people want this kind of pre-packaged idea. And, like you're saying liberation is just going to say hello. [00:16:14.15] ANGEL: Right, and itÕs going to do with you what it will. [00:16:17.14] DAVID: Phew. And that's uniquely you on how liberation shows up for you too. [00:16:23.17] ANGEL: Absolutely. Yeah, and that's exactly what happens at that three month part. Is that people will then all of the projections come out and so in whatever way that people can't hold themselves together - if they're lacking a kind of maturity to confront themselves - the conversation becomes like that's other people's fault or this happened or the way this went down. Or the way that I am showing up. Or the reason I did this or you all are you know - or you know like everything - you are manipulating me. Everything becomes a kind of outward and that's always the indication that something is really shifting for people. ItÕs not a bad thing like we don't shame people or anything, but itÕs like oh ok something is falling apart. Good, let's get started. [00:17:11.13] DAVID: When the ego is getting energetically aggressive it sounds like that's when the layers are starting to crumble. [00:17:17.16] ANGEL: Exactly. [00:17:19.05] DAVID: Wonderful. So, in your own definition, how would you define being contemplative or mindfulness? How do you see that? [00:17:27.16] ANGEL: You know I am not a big fan of the word contemplative. I never have been. I think itÕs a - it has a lot of baggage for people that are...yeah, I think itÕs a word that we tend to call into some frame that for me - the notion of being in relationship with myself goes beyond that. And so, this notion of a kind of persistent quietude and that we don't have - you know powerful voices. And we don't raise our voices. And we are not dynamic. And we are not passionate. And we're not - and so the idea of contemplative sort of puts this like you know white washing and I mean that in all the ways - this white washing on our - the experience of our investigation of ourselves and so I think of contemplation as the investigation and we sort of added this notion - when we get to contemplative right itÕs like contemplation like and - and so then there is - we describe some whole sets of protocols - Dr. Jasmine from my co-author would say these protocols on what it means to be contemplative. And in a dominate culture those protocols are actually persistently designed to bind people's that are historically and persistently marginalized and oppressed. So those calls are usually some form of saying you have to do it the way that way that we say to do it. And, that's actually an inhibition to people's liberation. So, some of us need to be actually come into our voice and be loud in order for us to like touch the heart of liberation. And some of us need to be quiet and removed and pulled back, but the notion that this kind of one way to do it - contemplative gets us like that. Uh -- [00:19:21.00] DAVID: I like this. [00:19:22.18] ANGEL: Yeah, when you have a dominate culture defining what contemplative is you - inherently dominate culture is inserting its own ideas about what's appropriate. What's not appropriate. What works for their culture. Right? What is acceptable inside of their culture. And so contemplative is quite dangerous and loaded word for me in that way. [00:19:46.00] DAVID: Awesome. Racial dharma. [00:19:47.09] ANGEL: Radical dharma. And mindfulness you know is - I am not mad - like make mindfulness right. Like we are all eating burgers right. And so, like everybody is going to get a little taste of some meditation and its great - whatever door where you enter into is great. I think the - conflation of mindfulness with a depthful practice that includes an ethic view is a problem. And so, when mindfulness becomes yet another thing that we can modify, and we think is something that is there so that we can consume it. Uh so that it can actually - then itÕs actually serving our ego. Right, and its serving our ideas of who we are. And who we would like to be seen as in our performance of ourselves. And so, in that way - which like anything you know it can become a factor of our incarceration rather than our liberation. [00:20:41.19] DAVID: I've come across moments where mindfulness has got in the way of actually being mindful. And, I call those situation of energetically bullying this space. You know - so...thank you for sharing. So, during some teachings we hear this word - "doing the work." I am curious - doing the work can show up as meditation, practices, engaging in your community and I am curious how do you do the work? How do you show up doing the work and how you're saying you live in a sangha or a community and it sounds like you are never not around doing the work? ItÕs always work. [00:21:22.06] ANGEL: Well, I don't live on it anymore, which its - so itÕs different now. For me, doing the work is -- listening first and foremost. And that's both in internal listening and external listening and I would say external first to know - to have a sense of - and a willingness to be open and to what is happening in the room. What is showing up? Who is showing up? What is the vibration? What's the energy? Are people feeling aggressive? Right, is there a corner in the room where there is a lot of stuckness and then how is that landing in and on me, right? And as a teacher in particular noticing places in which anything might feel like its sticky so that I am not operating out of that place, right oh if that is something you know kind of sticking for me, right? Like clear that right before I kind of barrel in and have something to say because then I would be operating out of something that has got a trigger or a hook for me. So, for me doing the work is first and foremost its listening. And then there are these forms in which we do the work. Right, like that whether that's meditation or held in community. You know those are just the - the how. But, at its essence for me doing the work means to be in attunement with the reality as it is. Right? The reality that I am experiencing and the dance between the reality that I experience and the reality that I project and the reality that I am consistently recreating by my perceptions and really working pretty consistently and persistently at recognizing like oh no that is - I think I see that, but that's not what I see. That's what I've been told. Oh I think that that's what I heard. Or that's the energy that that person is coming at me with, but actually that's something that I inherited in terms of my understanding about how those kinds of people behave or do things. Or what that behavior means and so this kind of peeling away of the layers of assumption is doing the work. [00:23:33.14] DAVID: Yes. [00:23:34.16] ANGEL: Which we've got to be willing to listen. [00:23:36.15] DAVID: Lots of work. I really enjoy the beginning of that - of just listening - stop and listen because I think a lot of us we listen to react. [00:23:47.13] ANGEL: That's right. [00:23:48.02] DAVID: You know and then what you are doing is you're - internalizing it and then - and then you're asking questions internally of like how is that landing for me. Is this - is something happening and then you externally show up. So, you're being extremely skillful. There is something about that. I wish we could all be doing at this moment. LAUGHS. [00:24:09.23] ANGEL: Which and it doesn't always mean - you know it sounds nice. [00:24:13.17] DAVID: ItÕs not all like flowers and cupcakes. ItÕs like sometimes its - it could be wrathful, skillful rage. [00:24:20.22] ANGEL: That's right. [00:24:22.10] DAVID: How does Zen practice show up in the love, justice and race work that you work with? And, how do you channel those teachings? [00:24:31.06] ANGEL: You know I am not committed - and I've said this often - so those of you that are saying I've heard her say that before. ItÕs true. I am not committed to nation building around Buddhism or Zen. And so, I am never thinking how do I offer then a Zen teaching in order to - LAUGHS - make this point or to get something across. I could give a hoot about Zen teaching. Or Buddhism for that matter. You know you get in the boat. You cross the shore. You leave the boat at the shore. You don't carry it around on your back. And so, I don't think of myself as trying to reach for teachings you know as if they're this packaged thing. Like oh I have some M&M's or itÕs a cough drop. You know? And here's the teaching that you need, but rather to allow the teachings that I have integrated into my own being to come through me and to be in active relationship with my study. You know, and my continuous understanding. And so, I may share something that I have that echo in my mind as it comes through of like oh that's from the yoga sutras. Uh or the echo in my mind of you know that is very consistent with the song of - the identity of relative and absolute. Right? And so, that it may come from somewhere that resonates with me as something that has been part of my own teaching in life whether that's very much something that's related to the heart sutra. ItÕs an after thought. Right, it sort of comes afterwards. I am like oh yeah, that's just like the - that's just like in the heart sutra. Right, I try to just live and teach out of my experience. And out of my listening. And out of my seeing. You know to see people and to - do my best to get out of the way of seeing people. [00:26:23.10] DAVID: There is - sounds like there is so much interdisciplinary studying going on. [00:26:28.05] ANGEL: Oh yeah! I think if we don't have interdisciplinary study then we get very static about the teachings. ItÕs almost like we can't save anything else. And we can't draw from anyone else. I had a Twitter exchange with someone today and I think it was because - against the stream made it you know a Tweet - there is a profile of me from Lions Roar and itÕs on the - itÕs going around the web you know wherever the - as Lama Rod said I am - like I am Buddhist famous, right. Which is like quote unquote right? And so, they put out this quote and someone responded - I am sure the Buddha would be a huge proponent of identity politics in the teachings. Something to that effect. And, I responded because you know it was included my little at thing - my name. And I responded, and I said its implicit that he was because he built a monastic - he built an institution that decasted, right, declassed and degraced the teachings and the ability to receive the teachings. And, the person didn't quite get that I was saying that. And they said something like well can you prove it. You know - can you - and can you tell me your source. And I said that's not my work to do. Right? And so, then the person had like energy around it right like oh as a spiritual teacher you know I asked you something. And what they were saying is like - this has to be - there has to be some source that I can go and look at and pick up and touch, but it was implicit. Its implicit in the fact that he not only was it in his teachings - it was in his teachings, his practice and his instruction. That he develop - now he didn't have to then write that down and say look - we should all have access to practice that goes beyond our class, our cast, our color. He built an institution that implied that. But this sort of fixation of the teachings means that if we can't find it written out and spelled out in these words that yes in fact the Buddha - I am a proponent of identity politics. That is somehow we don't - its outside of the teachings. And so, I encourage people to not get caught up in this notion of the teachings in this way that binds us and doesn't allow us to be in the full and vibrant reality of the life that we are living. And, that the Buddha didn't have any set of teachings that was anything other than the life that he lived and what he saw and expressed. And so, there is not some sort of like magic book that he found and that it has the teachings. But rather he expressed his life and then hundreds of years later some people wrote down what they choose to express of it. Right? So, can we live from the teachings of our experience? [00:29:32.14] DAVID: The most unique teachings we can have. Wow. So, what is your relationship with Shambhala and like Trungpa Rinpoche has that influenced you in your path and your spirituality and your - any of that. [00:29:51.02] ANGEL: Yeah, sure. So, at - not too long after finding that Zen mind - beginners mind book and setting about on my path of like - I am going to figure out how to do this Zen thing uh - I went across the country and I came to California. I lived in New York at the time and I came to California. I went to San Francisco Zen Center. I went home with a Zafu meditation cushion tucked under my arm. It was kind of my path now to being a meditator - whatever that is. I eventually found a sangha to be able to - a community of people that practice. To be able to - to practice and you know as we all do - like I started to read and I ran across Trungpa Rinpoche's teachings and the first book which is a great way to start was, Spiritual Materialism. There was such a cutting through of the bullshit that it was present in his teaching - I became very interested. So, I feel like my formal practice was in Zen - this particular Zen community and I went to New York Shambhala at the time - and I will just say at the time it was like frightenly white and frightenly tight. And, this was some years after Trungpa Rinpoche died and so there was a - a feeling of chaos there. Like and a heaviness and a grief and also kind of a suspicion. Some of it had to do with just my lack of understanding of you know for instance the casong - the military dress and the - and my lack of understanding of the way the culture worked, but also not being a welcoming environment that would recognize that a young woman of color coming in would not understand what she was seeing and so there was no intention or you know forthcomingness to explain and say oh this is what you are seeing here - and much to my heart break I couldn't actually find myself in that community. But I stayed with the teachings. And so, I feel like I grew up totally immersed in Trungpa Rinpoche's teachings coinciding and you know living side by side with my own formals and practice. Yeah, and so and I've said often you know that the Zen is what I married, but you know Shambhala has been my lover and -- [00:32:19.19] DAVID: I love that! That is so cool. [00:32:21.21] ANGEL: Yeah, I love it too. And I believe in certain types of eminations of things existing in the world and so for me Naropa is - it needs to exist. It needs to - to be there as a model of something that gives us an inspiration for something that is possible that defies something of our culture. I mean there is ways in which itÕs an institution and it has all of those trappings, etc. You know it has its problems and challenges and all of the things - but the notion that there is a Buddhist inspired university that people are starting a session of a podcast with a bow or a big event with a bow to bow in uh that there is real investigation that way. It harkens to something that is possible and even for those of us that don't have the opportunity to study here. Which it did for me at the time many years ago there was a point which I thought about coming to study here and - and I couldn't quite make sense of it coming from the big city and sticking myself into this bowl of mountains was the challenge for me. But I have continued to feel inspired by the reality of it. That it exists. And so, there is a way in which the Shambhala idea - Shambhala principle continues to live in my heart and in my view. And so I think that that has very much informed me. [00:33:52.13] DAVID: And Shambhala is now your lover. [00:33:54.05] ANGEL: Yeah, and Shambhala is - is my lover. [00:33:56.11] DAVID: And Zen is who you are with. [00:33:58.18] ANGEL: Yeah, well actually I am somewhat you know - I am somewhat poly and not not with anybody really right now. LAUGHS [00:34:05.11] DAVID: Awesome. Just spiritually open. [00:34:08.12] ANGEL: I am spiritually poly. Yeah. [00:34:09.21] DAVID: That's beautiful. I can get down with that. Awesome, well thank you so much for speaking with us today. It was such a pleasure to have you and an honor and we're just happy to have you in the Naropa community. [00:34:21.21] ANGEL: Thank you. I am happy to be here. [00:34:25.05] DAVID: Yes. So, I would like to thank Reverend Angel Kyodo Williams Sensei today for speaking with us and have a beautiful day. [00:34:33.01] ANGEL: Thank you. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]