Charles Eisenstein The Origin of Wrongness [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host, David Devine. And itÕs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] DAVID: Hello. Today I'd like to welcome a very special guest to the Naropa community and to the podcast. Charles Eisenstein. Charles has recently spoken at Naropa. He was the visiting John Cobb Peace Lecturer and he is also a writer of many books and a full time speaker. And I'm also just really excited to speak with him today. So, thank you for joining me today. How are you doing? Charles Eisenstein: I'm doing great. Thanks David. DAVID: So honestly, I just kind of want to shout this out. This is a Mindful U first time podcast where I'm actually interviewing someone through like a video chat. I've actually never done this before -- most of my podcasts are in person. So, this is a little exciting moment for me, I guess. So, I appreciate you giving me your time. Charles Eisenstein: Yeah, no problem. I'm sorry we couldn't do it in person. Yeah, I mean you seem like a very busy dude and our schedules just didn't work out, but I really do appreciate you giving me like the video chat time. So here we are. And I just know Naropa like really enjoyed your talk. And I just wanted to know like how did your talk go? In April you came to Naropa as the Peace Lecturer and you've just given a talk. So, can you just let us know like what your talk was about and how the community received you and how your talk went? Charles Eisenstein: I felt really well received and a lot of residents from the audience -- I spoke on something a lot broader than just peace as anti-war or non-violent tactics or anything like that -- really tracing the -- at least one of the roots of war thinking to ancient Babylonia and the -- what Walter Wink called the doctrine of redemptive violence, which is basically the idea that the solution to a problem -- and in fact the way forward -- the way to make progress for humanity is to conquer something. To defeat evil to impose order onto chaos. And when we take that for granted then whatever problem we face we -- our first step is to try to find the enemy whether it's another country or in society or even within ourselves. It's like what's the bad guy? How do we defeat the bad guy? How does good win over evil? And yeah so that was the starting point of my lecture. I think. DAVID: Okay, interesting. There's like this sort of mindset and or culture that uses a mechanism of demonizing others so they could push an agenda in which they find suitable just for them. Charles Eisenstein: Yeah, I mean that's a basic tactic of war. You have to arouse the population and your allies into rabid indignation, hatred, anger so that they are motivated and have high morale and are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to defeat the enemy. So, to demonize the enemy is essential. In fact, they can't even be an enemy if they haven't been demonized or dehumanized because then they don't fit into the team good versus team evil setup. DAVID: Okay interesting. So, when I was looking into you, I noticed you've done a lot of things. And just for our audience out there can you just let them know what your background was and how did you get to doing the work that you're doing today? Charles Eisenstein: I don't think I've really done a lot of things you know compared to a lot of people. Most of my life has been doing things with words. I was a translator in Taiwan in my 20s. That's where I absorbed a lot of the -- I never studied Buddhism or Daoism very deeply, but I really absorbed it by osmosis from living there for so long. And spent a lot of that time reading whatever I wanted, which I hadn't been able to do in college. I studied mathematics and philosophy at university and I remember feeling so liberated when I finally graduated. I was like I can read whatever I want right now. So, I read very widely and was trying to put the pieces together to understand this lifelong question that I had carried. What is the origin of the wrongness in the world, which is presented to us as a series of fragmented isolated atrocities and injustices and horrors -- without any synthesizing narrative that explains why the world is the way that it is? And I really wanted to understand so that I wouldn't be part of maintaining the status quo through pursuing insufficiently deep solutions that may be actually part of the problem. I think a lot of our solutions are part of the problem -- or you could even say our solution templates -- I mean one of them is the war on evil. So, I wanted to -- to get really deep and eventually I came to understand that all of the crises and horrors that we see in the world are an outgrowth of the mythology of civilization. The story of separation is what I call it, which basically says it answers the most fundamental questions that human beings ask. Who are you? Who am I? What is important? How is life to be lived? What is real? What is possible? How does the world work? And our culture answers that in a certain way. And other cultures have answered it different ways. So, the answer our culture has given is that you are a separate individual in an objective universe that operates according to mathematical laws that can be understood by examining its smallest components that does not have the qualities of a being unlike you and me. There is no intelligence in the world itself and it's full of random forces of nature and competing other separate selves. So that therefore our advancement is a function of exercising control over the random forces in competing other selves. And so here you have our entire civilization that is reflected in our money system. I mean our educational system, in our political system, everything is an embodiment of the story of separation. And it's coming to a crisis point. The story isn't working very well anymore. We're going through an initiation or birth into a new story. That's -- that's the basic template. Yeah. DAVID: Mm hmm. It sounds like the same situations that are like just getting us along on the short term -- they're not going to work anymore because of how many of those decisions were being made in like history. So, we're coming to a crucial moment where we need a new strategy -- a new technique and the like -- the war situations -- the us against them kind of mentalities. Those aren't working anymore. We need to have a collaborative effort with the like earth and with the community and with the people that we share this with. So, you said something about the origins of wrongness and that was like your pursuit of kind of finding yourself and finding this work. What actually inspired that question within yourself? Like where did that question come from? Charles Eisenstein: Being confronted with egregious examples of the wrongness that the marketizing implements of our society we're unable to shield me from completely. When I was a kid, I remember there was a famine in Ethiopia and the images were in Time magazine or on the news of these emaciated children. And I just couldn't explain that to myself in a way that that was satisfying because there's so much food in the world. It's not that there's not enough food. So much food is being wasted. What's going on here? I couldn't add two plus two. That didn't make four. Couldn't make the one data point of these starving children fit the other data point that I had been offered growing up that was basically that our civilization is on the right track. That life is getting better and better thanks to science and technology and reason and democracy and that the world is getting better and better thanks to the way that we are addressing the world. So that was one piece and then becoming aware of the ecological crisis -- the extinctions -- just everything happening in the world. As a teenager, I began reading some really disturbing books. "People's History of the United States" I read. Silent Spring, Gulag Archipelago. I read stuff on the Holocaust. The "Unsettling of America" by Wendell Berry was another powerful influence and these books that -- this information that I came across it shook me up and loosened the grip of the triumphalist story of man conquering nature through technology -- democracy conquering barter-ism -- like all these things -- I didn't have a story that made sense anymore. This is natural to the human condition when your ability to make sense of the world disintegrates then you want to find some new story. The search for meaning to make sense of life is overwhelming. And so, this happened to me. I mean starting in my teens actually and then in my 20s and I think today it's happening to many, many more people as the fabric of our narratives begins to unravel. It wasn't quite as obvious back then, but right now it's -- it's just really obvious that the story is not working. DAVID: Yeah and I find it interesting that our technology and we're advancing in so many different ways, but yet we're not in others. We are able to, but yet we're not trying to make those decisions. Or we might not be the ones making the decisions to make things good. But we want it to be. It's super frustrating to see that. I can see how you feel that the origin of wrongness totally makes sense to me now of how you were seeing that and you're just like what is going on? We have the capabilities to do the good things, but we're not. Charles Eisenstein: Right. And a lot of people are pursuing this. You know and they come -- some people take it to the point -- where it takes them is two conspiracy theories. The origin of the wrongness is a cabal of wicked people who operate behind the scenes and control everything. So, the origin of the wrongness is essentially evil -- conscious evil. I don't subscribe to that viewpoint. I do think that there are conspiracies that some of the subject matter of the conspiracy theories -- you know like the Kennedy assassinations, the 9/11 attack and so forth that they're -- that the conventional explanation is unsound. And you know you can go into -- I don't know if we want to talk about this, but you can go down a real rabbit hole with these conspiracies that take you into almost an alternate universe. The more you study them the more confirmation you get. It's like stepping into not only a different reality, but it's also stepping into a different bardo. You know it's a different state of being that is not actually a state of being that feels but I feel fully at home in. So, I've developed a more complex understanding of the nature of these shadow realities and how they interact with and interfere with the conventional reality. And I just mention that just because that's one place that what is the origin of the wrongness can take people. Where it took me ultimately was that there isn't a wrongness -- or that all the wrongness is part of a larger process. The whole journey of separation is part of a larger trajectory into separation and then to reunion at a higher level of complexity. DAVID: Yeah I do resonate with what you're saying about conspiracy theories because when I was growing up when I was like younger 20s -- I got really heavily involved in conspiracy theory and there was a moment like 5 years or 6 years deep into it I realized I'm a very not fun person to be around. And you can like flip it around and you know maybe some are true and maybe some aren't. Maybe some are fabricated, but what I started realizing was it took my life energy out. There was no like goodness -- there's nothing to look forward to -- it took all the joy out of my life and I realized like ok, well you know say these conspiracies are true and there's no joy in my life. What's the point of that? You know? Charles Eisenstein: Yeah there's a paradox here it's almost like if the conspiracy theories are true then they're most effective weapon will be to propagate conspiracy theories because they're paralyzing. You know there you are in for your computer looking at the conspiracy websites and feeling on the one hand self-righteous and self-satisfied that you're one of the people in the know -- you're not being fooled by anybody. DAVID: I knew it, haha. Charles Eisenstein: Right. And on the other hand, actually paralyzed and depressed. And why should you even try to make changes in the world when these overlords are so all powerful. DAVID: And that's exactly where I went to. And then I had this thought. I kept diving into that and I was like wow I feel so helpless -- like energetically handicapped that I can't do anything and then I realize maybe that's what they want. You know if these are true maybe that's what they want. They want me to feel helpless. So, the best thing that I could do for my life and moving forward is to live a good life. Is to do good things and so that was kind of an invitation for me to be like all right maybe they're true maybe they're not. But I need to take ownership of my life and where I'm going. Charles Eisenstein: Yeah, one place I take it is -- is that their omnipotence, their dominating power in the world depends on a certain understanding of what power is and how change happens. Which is actually part of the story of separation. My theory of change that says that that change happens when you exercise force. And that the more force you have under your command the more powerful you are. But there are other causal mechanisms that are invisible to the lens of force that we begin to experience when we let go of the paradigm of control that is part of the story of separation. Control is a high ideal in the story of separation -- control domination. When we let go of that and release into a larger intelligence then these synchronicities begin to happen that are fundamentally beyond the grasp of planning and manipulation and scheming and control. They require participation in something larger rather than domination over the world. And I've been experiencing these crazy synchronicities recently. I was in New York for two hours and I was going to meet with this -- these people and the meeting was canceled. It's kind of a long story, but -- but then I ended up running into that person on a street corner. And even after the meeting had been cancelled -- like it was going to happen anyway, you know. And then like another friend ran into us on the same street corner who was really dear to me. I haven't seen for a long time. And I was in Manhattan for -- for like an hour and a half and I had these two encounters you know. I wouldn't say that it's a miracle, but it's a glimpse of another -- another order -- like a bohemian implicate order that signals to me that this world does not work the way that I've been told. And if it does not work the way I've been told then those who we see as having power -- you know people in politics or the leaders in government, corporations or could be the Illuminati, you know the puppet masters. Whatever it is they may not have the power that -- that's only a certain kind of power. When I actually have interactions with people in positions of institutional power, I get the feeling that they're in fact not very powerful. That their only power is to discharge the functions of their position. And if they deviate too far from that then they get squeezed out and somebody else gets brought in who will faithfully discharge the job description of their position. Their only arena for the exercise of choice and free will and power is you know what kind of marble they're going to use for their office or are they going to have gold bathroom fixtures or are they instead going to put a Rembrandt in their corporate headquarters or like those -- those are actually totally inconsequential. So, I think we've misplaced the locus of power in our society. And when I find that the more that I let go of that way of seeing the workings of the world -- the more power in another sense I have, which may not look like power. You may not see me dominating others or sitting atop hierarchy. And you may not even notice the influence I have in the world. Like I happen to have some influence from a traditional conventional standpoint because I have a pretty big platform, but I don't think that's what makes him powerful. I think that the biggest effect I might have on a 500 year timescale could be the intimate conversations I have one on one. The special moments I have or the moments with my children or like I have some pretty powerful exchanges with people sometimes. You know deep moments of connection where I -- at that moment maybe I say just the right thing that needs to be heard. And it could change somebody's life. And maybe you've had moments like that with people -- both on the giving end and the receiving end. Like maybe it's the people who can attune to those moments and know what to say that's in perfect surface that are actually powerful in the world. DAVID: Yeah, there's a lot of magic out there and we're learning always how to tap into it. And I've been really connected to synchronicities lately where I do this thing where I take screenshots on my phone when it's like 12:12, which it was not too long ago or 11:11 or you know things like that. And I've been doing it for two and a half years now and I now have like six thousand screenshots of like just those numbers. But what I've realized while doing this project or just this thing that I'm doing is that the more synchronicities you notice the more show up. The more willing you are to notice the magic that is out there and the stuff that's like the universe is moving -- the more shows up for you, but you have to be willing to look through that lens to find it. And also, another thing that you made me think of was I don't know if you know this man, Terence McKenna. He's like a psychedelic -- Charles Eisenstein: Yeah, yeah. DAVID: Amazingly knowledgeable person, but he -- he doesn't believe in any of the conspiracies and all that too. And what he says is like -- what a headache it would be to try and shift the world, to try and manipulate it, to try and own it. He's like that's such a headache. He's like nobody can do that -- the world's going to do what it does anyways, you know he like helped me come out of my little moment of thinking everything's against me. You know itÕs just like wow like the universe is working in order -- whether humans are here or not it's going to keep doing its thing -- like we don't -- we don't have to put our stronghold on it anymore. Charles Eisenstein: Yeah. There is a certain psychological comfort that people get with conspiracy theories because it allows them to go into a familiar mindset of good versus evil. Like ok there's something to fight. If you let go the conspiracy theories and you realize -- you accept that the horrors of the -- of our world are systemic and emergent -- Oh, I've got some kid noise in the background here. DAVID: That's cute. Charles Eisenstein: Yeah, that they are emergent. That they're auto poetic properties of a complex system then it's like in the -- in the body if you're sick you know modern medicine is very comfortable with a pathogen. You find something to kill. And like ok we know what to do or we're comfortable with terrorism because there's some terrorists to kill. Or to surveil or whatever, but when it's an auto immune disease and you can't locate pathogen in anything external to yourself or if it's a social phenomenon -- when you understand that terrorism arises from a complex of conditions that include everything about our society -- then there's a real discomfort there because the familiar solution template of dominate something isn't going to work. So, I feel like conspiracy theories in part are a escape back into something familiar. At the same time, to make things even more complicated here -- to ask ok are they true or aren't they true? You know was there a conspiracy to bring down the World Trade Center on 9/11 or was it as it's been -- we've been told some terrorists from Saudi Arabia. That question already assumes that there is an objective reality -- that it was either this or that, but when we think mythologically we don't accept or discard a myth based on its correspondents to measurable fact. It can be true -- say that the world rests on the back of a turtle. And that truth is not diminished by satellite photos of the earth that see there is no turtle -- like we understand that stories can be true in different ways. And that reality is -- is maybe not objective and maybe you could be in some altered state and see a turtle underneath the world. So, I think that the conspiracy narratives are actually worth taking in. And that whole way of seeing the world it has a contribution to make to our understanding of things. Not -- and I'm not saying, oh, treat it just as a myth -- just as a myth that locution is itself part of the problem because everything is a myth. What we call science is actually a religion. It's founded on metaphysical principles. That for example that the question asked in an experiment does not influence that which is being experimented upon. That reality and observer are separate. That's a metaphysical assumption like you cannot prove or disprove that. You just take it on faith. That in my last book -- my climate book I listed like 20 ways in which science is a religion -- which is not a bad thing. Only science disparages something as a religion, but you stand outside of the scientific disparagement of religion. Then you ask ok what -- what truth is this religion bringing to us? DAVID: And science is an interesting one too because it takes a conscious observer to even jot down the things that are happening. But it is a conscious observer that changes the test or of the thing that they're observing. So, one thing I really like about your message is you speak about a shift -- a behavioral and conscious shift in oneself and about the like structures that inform us in our decisions. And I'm just curious how is it that we go about doing this and changing our values because I know a lot of your talks are about shifting and noticing and being willing to go within the self and to ask the deeper questions and to ask the questions -- where the questions come from and I'm just curious like do you have any tips or insights for us to focus on while we're diving into these deep and hard questions? Charles Eisenstein: So right now, we're -- we're in a very polarized political setting where we're offered different ways to make sense of the world that are mutually conflicting and you take a -- a walk into any one of these and it seems self-consistent and compelling. And then you go into another one and that one seems self-consistent and compelling as well. And the same situation might come up in a social relationship where you might have, you know you might be friends with a couple that's splitting up and each one has their story and you talk to one and you feel like oh yeah this -- that other person is inexcusable. How could they have done that and then you talk to the other one and no I understand now. And boy there is something missing in this story and it's actually the other person that was the -- that was at fault. And so, the -- there are so many invitations into different stories that we can't necessarily distinguish based on evidence. There has to be a choice. So, in making that choice if you can't always rely on evidence and reason -- and this is so true in the political culture now where -- where the two sides even they disagree even on what constitutes a fact. what constitutes valid -- a valid source of information. So, what do you do? How do you choose then? I think that another way to choose would be to realize that the state of belief is a state of being. And to notice who do you become subscribed to this position or that position. Or maybe there is a third encompassing position that includes both or includes some of both, but it's always to ask, who do I have to be to align with this belief? What does is bring up in me? Who do I become? Do I like this person that I become when for example I inhabit the 9/11 conspiracy reality? So, it's not saying is it true or not, but it's who do I become in that? Do I become more effective? Do I become happier? Do I become a positive force around me? And how do I feel inside? So that -- that awareness is an attunement to a -- like an inner compass that can point our way through life without us having to have figured it all out. DAVID: Yeah, I really like that you say belief becomes reality. And it's a very interesting thing to come to a point where your beliefs no longer serve you and you were like at a junction point of trying to figure out what beliefs do serve you. And I'm actually kind of curious like how would one shift the internal fork in the road of finding beliefs that serve them? Charles Eisenstein: Ok it's not that beliefs become reality. What I said is a state of belief is a state of being. DAVID: Ok. Charles Eisenstein: Beliefs are much more than an intellectual construct. DAVID: Ok. Charles Eisenstein: It's also true that belief and reality have an intimate connection. I would not go so far as to say that beliefs create reality, but it's also much more subtle than the standard account of belief which is that they're only about reality. There is an intimate mysterious interconnection between beliefs and reality. And the set of beliefs that we inhabit becomes a lens through which we see reality and can even bring us into a reality that matches the beliefs. And then sometimes something happens that totally violates all your beliefs. And there it is. So, did you create that by some other belief -- that doesn't make sense. But it could signal that your beliefs are ready to change. So, this whole new age law of attraction thing that says change your beliefs and you will then change your reality. Or if they're being a bit more sophisticated, they might say change your beliefs and your experience of reality will change. There's a misunderstanding in there, I think. Or an incomplete understanding which is around how did you actually change your beliefs? Do you do this through an act of will? Exercising domination over your beliefs in the same way that humanity in the story of separation has exercised domination over the world and each other. And if not, then how do beliefs change? When do they change and why do they change? And can we respect beliefs which don't come as individual units. Beliefs are woven together into stories. They are in constellations and galaxies and each one depends on all the other ones. You can't change one belief in isolation from any of your other beliefs and you can't change one belief in isolation from your physical and emotional body. These are all connected to each other. So instead of exercising our controller mind to change beliefs -- we can say what beliefs are ready to change or what changes are happening in me that are out of alignment with my current set of beliefs? And what new belief am I ready for? And what new belief am I almost ready for and not quite ready for? And what -- what condition of my soul makes me not ready yet for this new belief that I am attracted to and I want to inhabit. But maybe there's still a wound here that is magnetizing what they call a limiting belief. Well maybe that limiting belief is actually necessary to maintain the wounded state of being until the time for healing has come. DAVID: Yeah, I see that. Ok. Charles Eisenstein: And maybe the time for healing has come. And a belief that was not ready to change is now ready to change. And if it wasn't ready and you tried to change it you probably had the sneaking suspicion that you're bullshitting yourself. You know, and yeah, I can repeat the mantra one hundred times. I now live in complete abundance and perfect health. But there is another voice and there's like yeah who are you kidding, you know? DAVID: Yeah. Charles Eisenstein: So, this is -- this is a deep practice. And I'm not going to try to explicate the whole thing right now, you know, but just to say -- DAVID: Totally. I hear you. One thing I was thinking about when you were talking was there's this idea of internal beliefs of one's self, but then we have like the collective beliefs as well. So not only do we have individualized beliefs, but we have beliefs of the Republicans, the Democrats, beliefs of the bankers, beliefs of the United States. So, we all have these squished together ideas of what we should be. And it seems like it gets very sticky in those moments. And its very interesting kind of like what you said I'm like understanding beliefs a little bit differently now. So, it's very interesting. So, I appreciate you just answering that and just calling that out. Charles Eisenstein: Yeah right, I said that they're connected to each other -- beliefs -- you know, they are connected to our physical and emotional bodies. And also, as you were saying connected to the beliefs of the people around us. Connected to the built environment that we inhabit, connected to the political and social environment -- the economic environment. We are not separate beings. That's the thing -- we are interconnected. We are interdependent. We are inter-existent. So, when a belief changes that always has implications that are far reaching. I mean sometimes what changes your belief is that everyone around you changes their belief. Like a lot of our beliefs are formed in reference. We're social beings -- and formed in reference to the norms of the culture that surrounds us. And when those norms change -- you don't necessarily have to do anything, but you notice that your beliefs change too. This is happening around you know gay marriage for example or cannabis. It's just become normalized. DAVID: They're doing that with mushrooms too. Charles Eisenstein: Yeah. DAVID: And Denver just decriminalized mushrooms. Charles Eisenstein: I made a video about that actually. DAVID: Did you? Oh, I gotta check that out. Charles Eisenstein: Yeah. I'm not sure where it is -- it must be on my website. I thought that was a very, very significant move. DAVID: So, you know we're talking about beliefs and it sounds like we have this collective belief and I'm just curious -- so we have this like current agenda that isn't working for humanity and the earth. And so, like other than beliefs what are some things that we can do to change the narrative that is kind of perpetuating these things that no longer serve us. Charles Eisenstein: Well for one thing we can articulate a different narrative -- more important than that is to speak from a different narrative -- from a different worldview. That's what I talked about in that peace lecturer that when we tried to address a problem with blame and shame and guilt and setting up the world in black and white -- then even if our ostensible goal is to bring peace to a certain situation -- to stop a war, for example, we're going to be strengthening the underlying psychic field of war. So, I see this happening all the time -- that you know maybe you're campaigning against climate change and there will be some point your narrative where it becomes almost unstoppable to go to the horrible personal moral violations of the executives of the fossil fuel companies. Here's a bad guy -- not realizing that the actions of the fossil fuel companies are written into the system. And if we identify the cause -- the source of the problem as the bad guys rather than the system -- then we're likely to simply exchange that set of bad guys for another set of bad guys. Meanwhile as we do that, we are feeding the basic world view of separation -- of improvement coming through victory over an enemy. That's the same mindset that has us see nature as an other -- an improvement as coming to a victory over nature. It's the same basic perceptual set. And it feeds into all kinds of war thinking. Someone who is steeped in that worldview -- has been watching superhero movies, for example, or pretty much any -- any movie. I mean most Hollywood movies are driven -- the plot is driven by a confrontation with a bad person. When we're steeped in that then we look for that. We look for an enemy. When we look for an enemy, we tend to find an enemy or we even manufacturing an enemy. DAVID: Yeah. I was going to say we make one up. Charles Eisenstein: If I come at you and I just know David that you are an asshole. And I confront you in that way. You're going to probably confront me in that way too. And that'll -- we'll both be validated in that view. DAVID: Yeah. I mean unless the other person is good with themselves and they can -- they can have a moment where they're like wow you're coming at me and you're thinking I'm an asshole, but what's going on? Is there's something wrong in your life? Are you having a hard moment? So, I guess that starts with changing narrative within ourselves. So, we don't have that mindset of like oh they're coming at me so I have to -- I have to give them that back. Other than wow maybe something is really going on in their life that they're having a hard moment and maybe there are issues they're having with me aren't really real and they're just like letting them out on me. Charles Eisenstein: Right. Or maybe they're immersed in a story that holds people like me as just a bunch of enviro crazy libertards. And so, once you understand the story that somebody is in -- then you can short circuit that story. You can say or do something that just doesn't fit into that story. And then if you do that in an obvious enough way then there are like oh there's -- there's like a break. There's like a pause in reality. DAVID: You catch them off guard. Yeah. Charles Eisenstein: Yeah, like hold on. I don't know. Who are you? What is this? What's going on? There's like this moment of disconnect that is a fertile moment. It's a moment of possibility. DAVID: Yeah. And they don't know how to respond other than like oh, what? Because they assume that you're going to give them like a certain sort of feedback that they kind of want, you know, because it feeds them. But that's hard to do I feel like because you have to be totally right in your heart and in yourself to be able to receive energy like that and to also be able to be intelligent enough to say something to break the shift -- to shift them in such a way that they're -- they're like wow ok hmmm maybe I am not saying what I need to be saying at this moment. And I don't think we're taught that. Charles Eisenstein: No there is skill involved. There is some skill involved -- like more than skill it's actually just how we see people. If you've had a lot of practice and training and mentorship in seeing the god in every person -- seeing each person as a sacred being. And really looking for that then you're going to see it. And when you see that -- even if it's some aggressive, obnoxious person who's loud mouthing and you know insulting people with racist and sexist insults. If you could actually see not as an ideology, but actually see the wounded child there and the Divine Being that wants to express -- then you're going to be able to speak to that part of them. And you'll know how to do that. So, you'll have access to all kinds of creativity and what you'll say may not be something so simple as, oh you must have had a hard day like that will come across as patronizing. But maybe what you'll do is you'll make some kind of joke -- like you'll make a joke -- humor is -- if there's no other way to reach somebody humor is the last resort. And maybe the first resort -- if there's no other way to reach somebody humor is the most universal connector. DAVID: What do you think it is about humor that does that? Charles Eisenstein: Well for one thing when you are inviting somebody to laugh with you -- then you are establishing that yeah, we're on the same side. And yeah, we don't take that that seriously. That's not really who we are. Who we really are is -- is people that can laugh together at something? DAVID: That's awesome. I totally feel you. That sounds really good. So, we're kind of near the end, but I just had like two more quick questions for you. And one of them was -- is there anything that you're working on right now that is exciting you or is there anything that you're moving forward in that you're really into at this moment? Charles Eisenstein: I've been, you know I just published a book and I'm happy to not be writing a book right now. DAVID: Okay. Charles Eisenstein: It's -- a lot of the ideas I work with do require a deep dive that makes a book length treatment appropriate, but a lot of people don't read books today. You know they look at videos or whatever -- listen to podcasts. DAVID: Online content. Charles Eisenstein: Yeah. And you can't go quite as deep with a video or a podcast, but you can with an online course -- like a -- something that people engage with over time so I've been making online courses instead of books right now. And that feels pretty satisfying. One of them -- and on topics that I've been passionate about. Like de-polarization. So, I'm going to keep doing that. I'm going to -- I have a series of essays that I'm writing on de-polarization basically because I think that that is probably the biggest crisis that our civilization faces is our increasing division into us and them. When we expend our energy in that conflict -- pushing against each other then we will never be able to cohere enough to actually implement changes in the world. We'll just ride our inertia fighting each other. The ship will continue to go toward the iceberg and we'll be fighting each other so much that it we'll not be able to all get together and all pull on that rudder collectively, which is what we need to do. So that's why I've really turned toward polarization as my main focus. Or one of my important focuses this year. DAVID: Yeah that sounds really beautiful too because it's -- it's the origin of everything. You know you're not focusing on a topic -- you're focusing on where the topics start. So just for the audience, can you just like shout out -- because you said you wrote a couple books and you also have some online content -- just how people can follow you and find you? Charles Eisenstein: CharlesEisenstein.org DAVID: Ok. Wow, I would just like to thank you so much for speaking with me today. I know you're a busy guy and you just totally gave me your time today and just to speak. And you've definitely shined some light on some things that I want to think about and it's -- it's just very good stuff to sit with and to -- and to actually realize and your message has a idea umbrella message of how you go about it and it starts with the self and it starts where ideas originate and I'm really finding that the quality of ideas and the quality of things that we say and put out in the world really mean something. They need to be well thought out and they need to have an idea of incorporating everyone in thought. And I just really appreciate you saying that and having this moment of clarity of things are possible. And we need to start doing the work. And it's just really beautiful to hear. Charles Eisenstein: Thank you, David. It's very kind of you to say that. DAVID: All right, thank you so much. Take care. Have a good one. Charles Eisenstein: All right, thanks David. DAVID: So, I'd like to give a special thank you to my guest Charles Eisenstein for being on the podcast. He was the visiting lecturer for the Bayard and John Cobb Peace lecturer. He's also a writer and a full time speaker. Thanks again. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]