Heather Sutton TRT 49 minutes [MUSIC] Hello, and welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I’m your host, David Devine. And it’s a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions — Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] David Devine: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Mindful U Podcast. Today, we have a guest joining us in the studio, Heather Sutton. Heather has been teaching at Naropa since 2005 and is a core Assistant Professor in the somatic counseling department. She brings over 20 years of clinical experience with a focus on behavioral health and crisis work, and is also a leader in adaptive movement and community based dance outreach through Wonderbound and WellPower. So welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Heather Sutton: I’m doing great. Thanks for having me. David Devine: Awesome. I know you’ve done a lot of clinical work. You’re a licensed counselor. And to get started for our listeners out there, could you give us, like, a brief, linear description of how you created your upcoming with education? You know, what degrees did you get? When did the interest in somatic start. How did this work for you? Heather Sutton: Going back a little bit before Naropa, so I am a Naropa graduate. I had an undergraduate degree in physical education and, was called motor development, at the time, I had been a professional dancer. Wasn’t really sure what I wanted to do for work, but knew that I had made a promise to my parents I would go to college at some point. So I studied and was interested in physical education and the benefits of dance and being able to move, and looking at what potentially would be a graduate program, Naropa University came up. I was very interested both in the contemplative and experiential portion of that education, but also it was one of the few at the time. There’s more now, although it ebbs and flows — interested in dance therapy as a major and so I went to the program at Naropa, the graduate program at Naropa University, and graduated with a master’s degree in somatic counseling with a concentration in dance movement therapy. And then continued with the state of Colorado to pursue licensure as a counselor. So received my LPC licensure and continued to work with the ADTA, which is the American Dance Therapy Association. They offer credentialing on two levels. So I started as a registered dance movement therapist, and then have recently achieved the board certified dance movement therapy credential. So I’m also a BCDMT, and that kind of led me to doing some of the clinical work in the community that I’m — have done in the past, and that somewhat I continue to do now. So had both a clinical position in an emergency department, doing crisis work and assessment, and then also working with Wonderbound, as you mentioned, a dance company that’s in the Denver area, bringing dance and movement and the therapeutic aspects of dance and movement to non clinical sites. David Devine: Okay, that’s lovely. So a lot of credentials, is what I’m hearing. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: You know, you went to Naropa for a dance therapy path, and was there, like, a somatic program at that time? Heather Sutton: Yeah, they actually have, in my experiences, and I’m not sure of the history prior to my being involved with Naropa, they have always had both body psychotherapy and a dance movement therapy concentration, and that shifted and changed in the way that it’s looked over the years. But there’s a lot of overlap. There’s a lot of places where there’s similarities. So kind of this idea of somatic work being a large umbrella, and then these concentrations, these different ways of approaching, or philosophies that tend to get captured, either as body psychotherapy or as dance movement therapy. David Devine: I see. So one thing I’m thinking about is you went to school to become a dancer, is what I’m hearing, but then somehow that dance turned into dance therapy. So was that a path that you’ve always wanted to do, was somehow work with clients as a therapeutic outreach, or was it more of like, I like to dance, I want to be a dancer, and then, huh, I could — I can sort of help people with this. And it was an interest that you found while pursuing that dancing career. Heather Sutton: Yeah, I kind of found it by mistake, as a dancer, and working as a professional dancer was definitely where my passion initiated, but realizing that that’s a really hard life. There’s a lot of living paycheck to paycheck. It’s very tough on the body. It can be very hard to maintain that for long periods of time. It tends to be a short career. So I spent a lot of time thinking about, what did I want to do when being a professional dancer was no longer viable, or it was just becoming too hard, and so I kind of moved in several different directions. Of, well, I could be a dance instructor. I could be like a gym or physical education teacher. And then in the researching of what might come next and what different opportunities, educational opportunities might be available to me, dance movement therapy was one of the things that came up. And I actually remember being in a library with my now husband, looking through the book of professions and finding dance movement therapy and then finding Naropa University. And both of us were kind of like, what is this? I had no idea, yeah. So we started investigating Naropa, looking into what that would be and what it would mean to go to Naropa, what the degree means. And I just fell in love, and it’s the only school that I applied to — David Devine: And you haven’t left. Heather Sutton: I never left. Yeah. David Devine: Still here. All right, so one thing I just have to mention is I was born in like, the early 80s, you know. And so when we had physical ed, you know, we would go to this class and we’d play with these — the little parachute thing you would flip around and jump in. I just remember doing all that stuff. So when anybody says physical education, I think of that, of like trying to touch your toes and you have to run a mile and things like that. Heather Sutton: That’s right. David Devine: So it’s interesting that it turned into dance. Heather Sutton: Yeah, I think it’s that combination of recognizing that people love to move and bodies and movement can be a very joyful thing, but then also, there’s therapeutic aspects to it. So when things aren’t so lovely, when somebody’s having trouble expressing themselves, when things get harder, it also can be beneficial to move our bodies and to move those things through and being able to use something like dance movement therapy to access what doesn’t have words of what can’t be said or expressed verbally yet. And knowing how great I feel, and felt at the time, after taking a dance class or being able to be in rehearsal, it feels great, and finding a way to maybe bring that to other folks that don’t necessarily want to pursue a professional dance career. But how can we be in movement together? How can we be in relationship together through movement? David Devine: Yeah, okay. So what type of dance were you studying when you were first started studying dance? Heather Sutton: Primarily ballet. David Devine: Okay. Heather Sutton: Yeah, I’m not very good at any of the other forms, but I’ve given them all a try. LAUGHS David Devine: You had to like wear those pink shoes and stand on your — Heather Sutton: Oh, yes! David Devine: Okay. Heather Sutton: Yes, absolutely. David Devine: I worked with somebody who’s really close to me, Cassie, from the marketing department, and she’s a ballerina too. Heather Sutton: Yes, yes, we’ve already bonded on that in a meeting when we realized — I actually think, if I’m remembering correctly, she even danced in Boston, which is where I’m from. David Devine: Ooh, okay. Heather Sutton: We weren’t there at the same time. David Devine: Okay, so one thing you were saying was how we feel great in our bodies. And then while you were saying that, I was thinking about what makes us not feel great in our bodies. And it’s like, there’s, you know, sometimes if you don’t feel like moving, it’s because you might be insecure. I know sometimes when I go out, people are like, are you gonna dance? I’m like, I’m not feeling it. You know, I kind of have to feel it to dance, and I can dance really well, but it’s only — it’s a hard switch to flip sometimes. And then I was also thinking about, you know, our bodies get tight with stress, so there’s so many therapeutic reasons to move the body. Heather Sutton: Absolutely. David Devine: And sometimes we have to, like, warm ourselves up to do so. And the more we do it, the easier it gets. Heather Sutton: Totally. And also, you know, I’m kind of shining a light on the really fun, warm, fuzzy parts of this, but there’s lots of reasons why folks would potentially not feel comfortable or safe or at home in their own bodies when looking at things like the trauma informed applications of dance movement therapy or somatic counseling, and allowing folks to reclaim the body as a place that does feel safe or that does feel resilient, or does feel like a place that is supportive. So yeah, not to give this picture of like, everybody’s dancing, and it’s very fun, but also recognizing these applications when things are not so great, David Devine: Yeah, like, the idea of reclaim, that resonates with me. So, you know, I’m envisioning you in a library looking at a book with your future husband right now, seeing the Naropa offerings. So then, you know, you go — you go to Naropa and all that. Where was the transition between student to teacher. How did that happen? Heather Sutton: Oh, it’s such an interesting question. In general, in my life, I feel like things present themselves. So not to say everything just falls in my lap. I’ve worked hard, but also things tend to sometimes present themselves. So I kind of graduated from the program and was like, peace out, Naropa. I think I’m done with this. David Devine: Thank you. Heather Sutton: Yeah, it’s been great. I got a job in a super clinical you know, as I said, I started on an inpatient psych unit, an adult psychiatric unit, and then transitioned to the emergency department. And it’s was very intense, very clinical, very woo. And I was approached by some of the folks that were still at Naropa about the possibility of teaching, and started as an adjunct instructor and fell in love with the balance between working with folks that were still like, not even brand new, not even graduated yet, and that excitement about the field and the excitement about the possibilities and that kind of we’re going to change the world energy to balance with a very clinical place that is, you know, very institutional and very enmeshed in all of these policies and procedures that can be very restrictive and not always patient focused or client focused, and finding the balance between those two things. So feeling like I’m learning a lot, being on the front line, if you will, in an emergency department, and really getting to know what is happening in the city, what is the experience of folks, and then being able to balance that with the energy of an academic setting. Just, it was such a great fit, and I fell in love with it, and was so thrilled to have the opportunity. David Devine: I’m starting to recognize the diversity of that, because you are working with clients and patients and real life things and traumas that are happening to people, and you are there supporting them. But then when you are being an adjunct, and you’re teaching you’re teaching people how to deal with that, so you’re getting like real life experiences, then you’re getting the teachable moments to have with the students who are going to become clinicians or develop practices and therapists. So you get — you get this, like, interesting vortex of learning and teaching and growing as like your own therapist. Heather Sutton: Yes, oh yes, yeah, everything that you said is exactly what it felt like to have these kind of two juxtaposed pieces of both — both sides of the coin so to speak. David Devine: Yeah, it’s less urgent when you’re in a classroom compared to in an emergency setting. Heather Sutton: Yeah, having the time to think about a question or to think about something a student brings versus these quick decisions that have to happen. Also, I think it’s worth mentioning the feedback that I’ve gotten over the years is that I can take a personal story and apply it to something we’re talking about theoretically in the classroom. So it was really beneficial in supporting my ability to teach, or how I developed my style of teaching, to be able to bring in those real world experiences, David Devine: Okay, yeah, I see the importance of how that can enhance the in classroom experiences. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: You know, because you’re not just like, oh, I read this in a book. Heather Sutton: Right. David Devine: You’re like, actually, so this guy, right — Heather Sutton: LAUGHS Yeah, here’s what this looks like in the real world. David Devine: Yeah. Okay, so let me ask you this, when it comes to the student body at Naropa, what kind of students do you come across in the programs, and what are their goals in like, this degree path? And you know, like, what do they bring to the teachings of the classroom? Is there certain personality types that, like, I want to help people personality I know when I was going to Naropa, a lot of the psychology path people were just interested on how psychology works, or like, oh, I had a family thing happen, and I just want to know what’s going on. You know, I heard that a lot. I’m just curious, what is your experience with the students? Heather Sutton: This is a biased response. Our students are amazing. I am so excited about the kind of students that Naropa attracts. We tend to have students that are very active in social justice and what’s going on in the world. They’re willing to take a look at things like counseling and a program like Naropa to say, how do we bring helping relationships into a place where they’re actually helping, not just within an oppressive system, but what is the future of this going to be? I think our students are highly motivated. They are very acutely aware of injustices, and they’re very acutely aware of — of the suffering that can happen as part of the human experience, and they’re very moved to participate in the improvement of these situations. They tend to be so motivated and so passionate to learn. And the specifically Naropa piece is that we try not to have, I mean, you’re going to have a natural power dynamic between an instructor and student. But in the experiential and contemplative learning structure that Naropa has, it very much feels like a give and take that I’ve always wanted to be a learner. If I could have stayed in school forever, I would have done it. And so I found another way around it, by being in school or involved in school in a different way. But I feel like I’m very much also a student, that the things that they bring to class, and that exchange of knowledge and experience is so exciting and dynamic. David Devine: Yeah, and you get different perspectives, because you could be telling a real life story, and they could be like, oh, well, what about this? And you’re like, wow, I never thought about it like that. Heather Sutton: Exactly, right. Yeah. David Devine: It’s really unique and cool. Heather Sutton: Yeah, yeah, coming from so many different backgrounds and locations, it really creates this interesting space for exploration. David Devine: Yeah, and one thing I’m hearing too, is because I had this experience, you know, because I went to college as a 27 year old, and from what I heard from you, you were researching the program. So because Naropa is a unique university with unique lineages, it tends to breed unique students, you know, and or the students are studied up on what to — what kind of content they’re going to be consuming, what kind of content they’re going to be receiving, the contemplative model. So they — they kind of know what they’re getting into is what I’m saying, right? Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: Okay. Heather Sutton: We’re in the process of developing as part of our somatic concentration, a low res somatic program, which is the exciting part of what’s happening at Naropa right now. As you mentioned, I researched Naropa and was able to pick up and move here, but not every student is able to do that. So being able to look at both the folks that are attracted to and want to be in a place like Naropa. But also, how can we offer what Naropa has to offer on a broader scale? David Devine: Okay, my thought, when you say that is online — online programs, okay, do you want to say anything else about that? Heather Sutton: Yeah, so we’re in the process, the very beginning, well, we’re well on our way, but the university reached out about interest in developing a low res portion, or part of our somatic program, similar to the mindfulness Transpersonal Counseling program, they also have a low res part of their program, but for us to take a look at our curriculum and the classes that we’re offering and to consider what that would look like to offer them online in a low res or low residency program. So students will be able to study from a variety of — all over the world, really, but a variety of locations. We’ll come together every semester for in person intensives, so a nice blend of both synchronous and asynchronous learning, online learning at your own pace. The ability to be able to access a Naropa education, even if you still have to be tending to family, tending to a job or potentially a current career, if you’re looking for a career switch, or whatever that might look like, but yeah, being able to offer — to reach more people. David Devine: Reach more people and be more accessible to people’s time, because college does take a lot of time, takes a lot of energy, and I think it’s more easily to attend if you can log on late at night after you like, taking care of family issues or dealing with the family, or dealing with your life and jobs and current day to day here’s and there’s, then you could just sit down and do your studies according to your pace. Heather Sutton: Absolutely, so I think it’s really important. I know that a pretty significant portion of our students, when you ask about the student experience and what is a Naropa student like, we get a fair number of folks that have become disenchanted with an initial career, and being in these kinds of careers that are based in capitalism and hustle, and having to go all the time and looking at career changes and being able to tap into something more than that, being able to understand the benefits of approaching things in a contemplative way, of staying relational, of being able to have experiential learning and be part of a community in a different way. So I think this really would support folks being able to access that. David Devine: Yeah, I’m thinking about being contemplative through an online medium. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: This almost seems like a new modality in its own because, you know, when we were in the classroom, when you and me were in, like, a physical classroom, we would sit on zafus and we’d get to hang out, and, like, our attention would be right there. And you know, it’s like, you don’t really sit anywhere. You just got to, like, be present. And it was — it was really cool. It was like you were allowed to feel comfortable as long as you were engaging. And now it’s like you can be way comfy in the comfort of your home, but there is a component where you’re still behind a computer. So how — is there like practices that are being introduced and new because of this digital format? Heather Sutton: Yeah, I mean, that’s what we’re looking at now, is, how do we offer this program where we maintain our somatic identity, but we also are able to maintain kind of the Naropa-ness of Naropa, even if somebody isn’t on campus, and we’ve got a great amount of resources. This isn’t new work for Naropa, we’ve got a whole team of designers, instructional designers, and experts in online education and contemplative education that have already been working with undergraduate programs at Naropa. They’re learning and hold this knowledge of best practices for asynchronous or remote, contemplative and experiential learning. And so we’re able to come together as a large team and really tap into that existing knowledge as we look at how we’re designing our curriculum. David Devine: Yeah, interesting. It feels like a different way to teach the curriculum. Heather Sutton: Yeah, most definitely. David Devine: It seems as though we talked a lot about the pros. What are some of the cons about an online format for psychology? Heather Sutton: Oh gosh, certainly the — that we’re not able to be together in real time, which is why the intensive component is so important. But I think there can be a tendency to lose track of students, or for them to not feel connected to our instructors and to our curriculum. So trying to hold some of these potential places where there would be gaps, to try to anticipate them and try to solve for them, now, but I think mostly it’s that kind of connection that can be so important at Naropa, that connection that you get to build A) with a cohort or being that cohort model, and then also with our instructors and the folks that are involved in holding the program. David Devine: Okay, is there still an in person availability? Heather Sutton: Oh, yes, yeah, the current structure of the program as it is, isn’t going away, but this isn’t in addition to. David Devine: Okay. So kind of like a yoga class where you get some people streaming in to it, right, but you still have the class with people. Heather Sutton: Yeah, they’ll stay separate, so the class with people won’t be streaming in the low res folks. It’s a completely — they’ll have their own online course in Canvas, the platform that we use to hold courses. They’ll have courses that are specifically designed because they’ll need access to things like pre recorded lectures or some of the online components being able to outreach those instructors, it’s a different way of teaching. So we want to make sure we also have instructors that are familiar with the online format and are able to continue to be available and engage with the students, even though the majority of what they’re doing is asynchronous. David Devine: I see, okay. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: So they’re just a little bit in a different bucket, I guess. Heather Sutton: Yeah, yeah, a hybrid might be where we would set up a platform and students would zoom into class with the in person students, but we’re doing a low res so they’re separate. David Devine: Cool, ooh, this is exciting. Heather Sutton: It’s very exciting. David Devine: I’m sure there’s going to be a lot of learning new things when it comes to that, because in person, we’ve been doing that for such a long time that there’s certain ways you go about teaching things, there’s certain ways that you go about offering information. But when you’re online, it’s, I don’t know, they’re at their own disposal, if it hits or miss when it comes to retaining that information or that concept. Heather Sutton: Yeah, most definitely. And again, that’s why I’m so glad that we have precedent, that we’ve got these programs. There’s been learning feedback from students that have participated in other low res options at Naropa, that have given feedback. So I feel like we’ve got a strong basis or amount of knowledge and experience that we can apply to this program. So in a way, I’m lucky, we’re not really creating the wheel. We’re just looking at how to apply it to a somatic. David Devine: And it sounds beautiful because you are just in addition to. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: You know what I mean? Because people still want to be on campus. Campus is gorgeous, so beautiful, and it’s so beautiful being there with a cohort. Heather Sutton: Yeah, much like the beauty of everyone’s theoretical orientations and the differences in their approaches to counseling and therapy, there should also be the availability of different approaches to learning and being in a counselor program. So the more different ways we can offer for different learning styles and different needs for our students, I think the better it will be. David Devine: Me too. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: Good job. Heather Sutton: Thanks. David Devine: Okay, so I read that you teach a variety of classes, Heather Sutton: I do, ye. David Devine: So I’m going to list some of them off. Heather Sutton: LAUHGHS David Devine: So we have Current Methods and Skills in Psychotherapy, Applied Anatomy and Neuroscience. Internship seminar one and two, Body Psychotherapy, Concentration. Heather Sutton: Ah, I used to be the concentration coordinator for body psychotherapy, but I’m now the concentration coordinator for the dance movement therapy track. David Devine: Okay. Heather Sutton: Yeah, which isn’t necessarily a class, but the way that we’ve structured our program is we like to have almost in addition to an academic advisor. Also somebody who can advise on the specifics of these two different concentrations that we offer. So I am the one that would be available to all of our dance movement therapy concentration students if they have questions about, what does that mean? What is available to me at graduation? What does it mean to call myself a dance movement therapist and to develop that professional identity? Yeah, and then the rest of them are classes. David Devine: Okay, so talk to me about some of these classes. What are they like? So Current Methods and Skills in Psychotherapy. So when I hear psychotherapy, that’s talk therapy, pretty much. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: Sit down. You know, you get a comfy chair. You sit down, therapist with a clipboard. So — so how are you feeling today? You know, how is that different from the applied anatomy and neuroscience? Heather Sutton: Oh, gosh, yeah, world’s different. Although there’s a lot of — there’s a lot of crossover. So the methods and skills class was the very first class that I got asked to come in and teach, and that’s the — a class that actually has recently been sunsetted as we adjust our curriculum to be more in alignment with K-CRAB. And you’re absolutely right. That was a survey class where we started with Freud and went all the way through all of the current methods and skills and therapy that are available to folks in the community when talking about mainstream therapy. So not necessarily somatic counseling, but when our students go out into the world to be in practicums and internships, a lot of times, the site is going to have like, potentially cognitive behavioral therapy as the main modality that they’re using. And so we wanted to have this class in this classroom structure, where they could learn a little bit about what that is, and learn how to translate the somatic work that they’re learning into a language that would be understood at a practicum or internship site. So that they can talk about what they have to offer with a language that might be more familiar to the folks at that site. Yeah. And so as we look to adjusting our curriculum to more align with K-CRAB, that class has been replaced with a professional orientation class, which also covers some of these initial kind of white western approaches to therapy, but also finding places in our curriculum to bring in alternatives in the ways that therapy has been looking in other cultures, and not just shining a light on only white western approaches. And then similarly, as things like body psychotherapy, or, more specifically, what I know about as dance movement therapy, became its own modality. There was a strong pressure to almost align with one of these modalities, more traditional modalities, so it would legitimize the work that was happening. So I can do this work and also talk about how it aligns with the way that a Jungian would approach therapy, or the way that a Freudian or a psychoanalyst would — would conceptualize therapy. And so for a long time in the history of dance movement therapy, there’s been kind of an alignment between these mainstream methods and what dance movement therapy looks like. So it kind of made sense to have it and to talk about it in — in a body psychotherapy or dance movement therapy lens, and not just to talk about them as mainstream approaches or something other than what we’re learning. David Devine: Yeah, somatic has an application of movement. And the — you know, psychotherapy is an explanation, of internal movement, I guess. Heather Sutton: Yeah, yeah. David Devine: You know drama trauma movement. Heather Sutton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It offers a clinical way to look at the work that we’re doing. So can I not just apply dance movement therapy, but can I understand why and what my clinical rationale is for doing that? Yeah. David Devine: So psychotherapy, concentration, so that feels — that feels like almost saying somatic. Heather Sutton: A little bit, yeah, the languaging has shifted a little bit in our program too, to make it a little bit less confusing. So a lot of the psychotherapy has been dropped and replaced, very specifically, with counseling, so that it becomes very clear what it is that we’re here to learn. So it’s somatic counseling, the somatic counseling, concentration, dance, movement theories and applications. So we’re really aligning with that counselor identity, and the idea that what you’re coming here to learn is how to be a counselor, how to be in counseling and be relational and in relationship with others in a way that is helpful. David Devine: Yeah, because you can know a lot of things, but if you’re not able to connect with a client or somebody looking for therapy, I don’t know, might not go as well. Heather Sutton: Yeah, that’s exactly right. At the end of the day, and there’s a lot of research, I think, that continues to happen that supports this, at the end of the day it’s how, how are you able to sit across from another person or people and be — and be relational, and the rest of it is just kind of icing on the cake. If you’ve got this theoretical orientation or these interventions that you want to use if you’re going to use the body in a certain way, that’s all magnificent. But at the very foundation is, can you sit across from somebody and be open, to be in relationship with that person, even if it gets hard. Heather Sutton: Yeah, holding space, that’s — that gets sticky real quick sometimes. Therapists are just learning about that. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: So being emotionally connecting to a client is probably more potent than theorizing something you had learned in a book. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: You know what I mean. So — so feeling connected to from a therapist is probably more healing than it is of hearing the thing you need to do. Heather Sutton: Yeah, sometimes. I think we want all of it available to us, because some people do just want to hear tell me what to do. But if we’re talking about this in a way of you know, maybe, why do I think that our students are better therapists that we’re — we’re — then potentially mainstream therapists — David Devine: More equipped? Heather Sutton: Yeah, is — is that you can track what’s going on in your body when you’re sitting across from someone. You can track when it starts to feel sticky. And can I keep separated, what is maybe something I’m picking up from in the client, versus what is arising for me in my body? That kind of way of staying contemplative, staying curious, and then being able to meet the moment. David Devine: Interesting. Yeah, because things come up in the therapist as well. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: So recognizing is this part of the session? Is it me? Is it — I don’t know, like, my coffee’s just not hitting right in my tummy. Like, what is it? Heather Sutton: Yeah, is it familiar? Does it feel like something I’ve experienced before under similar circumstances? Is this actually empathy? Am I somatically picking up on what my client is feeling, and how do I keep those things separate? What do I do with it when it happens? David Devine: What an awesome practice. Heather Sutton: Yeah, I think it’s pretty powerful. David Devine: Yeah. I mean, geez, that could be helpful to anybody. Heather Sutton: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think I, you know, you said, when it seems like with methods and skills, that it’s just coming in and sitting down and talking, right? And we would talk about that as maybe a top down approach of, like, what’s going on cognitively, and then as you’re talking about it, are you noticing anything in your body? But that some things happen pre verbally, some things don’t have words yet. And so with a somatic approach, with our program, we’re really looking at a bottom up of, can you tap into any sensations or emotions or movement impulses that you’re experiencing, and can we experience them and then start to make the integration and the connection to what you think about it? Or do we want to have a conversation about it? Or is it enough to just be in the feeling and learn more about yourself by staying there? David Devine: No one else can see it, but you’re doing a lot of movement while you’re talking. It’s very — it’s a very somatic conversation, I guess. And one thing that I was thinking about is I think about like neuroplasticity and pathways of, you know, action potentials, of me thinking than me doing something with my body. But then I was thinking about how when people have trauma, they get in that rut that they always tighten up or do something, but like the body does that too. The body has this way of reacting in a specific way, and you’re trying to reprogram of to react a different way. Heather Sutton: Or potentially to allow the reaction. So a lot of times in trauma is when the system is taxed beyond its resources, right? So a lot of times in trauma, when we’re activated and we want to go into fight or flight, and we can’t, for some reason, that impulse and all of that energy still exists, right? And so then a lot of the stuff that will start to happen somatically after that. So what we’re hoping to do is to even sequence or allow the completion of what wanted to happen in the moment. So not just kind of bypassing or changing the experience or changing the response, the organism is intelligent and does what it needs to do to survive. So can we support what wanted to happen in that moment, what needs to maybe process or move somatically, so that there’s more opportunity in the future to have a variety of ways to react. David Devine: Yeah, interesting. Heather Sutton: Does that make sense. David Devine: No, it does. So I was just thinking because the trauma response feels like you’re backed up in a corner and going to a therapist and learning these techniques, feels like you’re not backed up, but you’re still — you still have the issue. It’s not like you’re resolving the issue, which you can resolve the issue through time and practice, but you don’t feel like you only have one option to move through it. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: You have multiple options. Heather Sutton: Yeah, and a safe space to explore that. Yeah. Yeah, totally. David Devine: Interesting. Okay. So you said something about fight or flight, and you can’t act upon fight or flight, like, what’s beyond fight or flight? Because I always thought that was, like, the end all be all. Heather Sutton: It depends on which theory you’re thinking about or talking about, but that’s exactly right. So what — what they would talk about in something like polyvagal theory, is, if you can’t, you fight or flee or sometimes even freeze lives there. But when the system becomes so overwhelmed, we tend to go into that collapsed place where there’s immobilization, there’s a collapse of the system, and nothing is available, that there’s just kind of a collapse. Yeah. David Devine: Forfeit. Heather Sutton: Yeah, exactly right. David Devine: Geez. Heather Sutton: Yeah, which, again, has, I mean, it has its purposes, and the organism will do what the organism needs to do to survive. And sometimes we do need that collapse, and sometimes parts of that are called rest and digest, or being able to process when something has happened. But yeah, if you get stuck in that state, it can be feel, I imagine, to feel very immobilizing that there’s no energy to do things, that there’s no — there’s nothing that’s kind of mobilizing you to action. David Devine: It breaks my heart. Heather Sutton: Yeah, it’s a crummy place to be, yeah? David Devine: All right, well, we talked about online classes and students being in classroom. But this question is morally, I guess, let’s ask it in a way where it’s like we can ask it about the online students, which is a newer version, and then we can ask it about the in class students. So could you tell me about the synergy that is created with the Naropa teachers and the students with you know, the interactions, the discussions, the teachings, all the things that are being developed in the therapeutic setting, like, is there a synergy that develops in the classroom, and is there a different synergy that develops on an online space with that cohort? Heather Sutton: That is such a great question, and it is something that is something that is so hard to put words to. But yes! David Devine: You can dance it out if you want, and I’ll describe it to the — Heather Sutton: Tell everyone what I’m doing. I have an incredible faculty in my department, and they are so skilled at what they do, and I think we’ve been able to bring in representation from such a broad range of ways of applying this work out in the community, but the relationship that happens between the faculty and the students is so special, and so, I think it’s an intentional part of what -- what we’re doing. We meet as a team frequently to discuss how to kind of support and grow these things, but that we’re available, that we’re hoping that students set up office hours with us, and we want to develop that relationship. So holding them in their cohort model for the residential program, and us kind of being present to hold and contain that, I think, creates really special relationships between our students and our instructors. As far as a low res program, that’s to be determined, right? So these classes are just now in development for us to start in the summer of ’26, so the classes haven’t happened yet, so there’s a lot of — David Devine: Oh, ok. Heather Sutton: Yeah, stay tuned. But I think when we have meetings, and when I meet with my team that is supporting the development of this program, those are a lot of our conversations are with intention. Who are we going to reach out to, to hold these classes? Because, again, that’s how Naropa is going to maintain its Naropa-ness is the access to these very particular, very skillful faculty members that we want those relationships to develop. We want the students to get to know who they are, as people, as practitioners, as experts in their areas. David Devine: Yeah, and I can envision a difference between the synergy of an online classroom compared to an in room classroom. I remember when I was going to Naropa, and I’m sure you felt this too. It’s like there’s a buzz in the classroom, because teacher would be saying something. Some people are like, whoa, that’s — that hits pretty hard. And I thought about this, and then someone brings it up, and everyone’s like, well, that’s pretty cool, too. And you know, it’s like, there’s this dialog that is available to happen in the classroom, and I’m sure it’s able to happen in the low res program as well. But it’s more of like you’re typing it into the group chat. Heather Sutton: Potentially, but I think you know what — what going through the pandemic and having this very rapid, which feels like, in my perspective, rapid advancement in the technology that’s available, I think we have a lot of opportunities where we can also offer synchronous portions of these asynchronous classes, and the beauty of Teams or Zoom or whatever that platform happens to be, where there can be a collection or a gathering of people in real time. And then also the benefit of the platforms that Naropa is using and having discussion forums, where maybe it is being typed in, but there’s still the exchange of ideas, and the conversation can continue to be facilitated. David Devine: Okay, beautiful. So let me ask you this. It sounds like there’s many different ways that a student can show up to a Naropa classroom, whether that’s digitally or in person. And what I’m trying to figure out is, what is the student going to learn and develop, and what kind of career path are they interested in when they sign up to the programs that you work in? Are they wanting to — to work with people? Are they wanting to, I don’t know, write books about psychology? Are they wanting — they’re just interested, it’s just like something they’re pursuing because a spirit guide told them, or, you know what I mean, like, what’s in the future for a Naropa student after they graduate? Heather Sutton: I think most of our students come with a pretty clear idea, and it’s something that we ask them about as part of our admissions process as well. Is, what — what do you see yourself doing with this education? What do you see yourself doing with this degree? The exciting part is watching as that shifts and changes, either by becoming more refined and a clearer idea of that, or, oh, if that’s what this is, I wonder what all of these other possibilities are that I haven’t ever thought about before. So I think that’s kind of a an alive thing, that it’s part of the conversation, it’s part of the experience, and then the dynamic way of interacting with the education and with what they’re learning. As far as our graduates, they end up all over the place. We’ve got several students in recent memory that I’ve written letters of recommendation for to go on to programs where they will be focusing on research and potentially writing books or writing research papers. We also have students, or I should say, graduates, that have created their own jobs, that they’ve looked at an area where they see this work would be beneficial, and they’ve been able to work and advocate for creating these programs where they’re able to apply that work. We also have lots of students that end up working in community and agency settings and in similar settings to me, in emergency — emergency room settings or doing crisis evaluation. We’ve got folks that end up going into private practice or becoming part of a group practice. There’s often a lot of talk about finding the places where there’s connection with other modalities or other things that might be beneficial. So kind of creating these community programs where therapy is available, where other modes of therapeutic experiences are available, offering also massage, or whatever their area of expertise was before they came into the program. So I think it becomes a really creative and dynamic thing where there’s just a lot of possibilities when folks graduate. David Devine: Yeah, it’s not always so I want to do this, and this is what you do. Sometimes you have an availability to be creative of the uses of how you apply psychology and how you’re talking about some of the students were able to develop an application towards psychology, like psychology can be used towards anything. Yeah, and just the creativity is really inspiring, how pieces start to get put together, and you don’t know what you don’t know when you’re entering a program like this. So also that kind of ability to have flexibility and curiosity about what this could look like. David Devine: Anything you want to share that is insanely creative that you’ve heard from a student. Heather Sutton: Oh… David Devine: Like, oh, so, you know, I teach kids how to skateboard, but because it’s somatic, I don’t know — Heather Sutton: Yeah, well, I mean, it’s all of it is that, I think for as many people that I know that are kind of mainstream, I’m in a private practice, folks that have gone into being able to apply this work, working with kids, most certainly, folks that are combining other movement opportunities like skate, which wouldn’t surprise me in the least, that someone would graduate and develop a therapeutic skateboarding program. David Devine: It’s out there. Heather Sutton: Similar. Yeah, I’ve — I’ve been able to, in my, just in my own career, apply this work in a lot of different ways. I’ve worked with folks that are experiencing unstable housing and utilizing day shelter. I’ve been able to go into memory care and work with folks with diagnoses of Alzheimer’s. I currently work with kids in an integrated preschool, being able to offer both this work clinically in clinical settings, but also looking at how some of this work can apply in non clinical settings. So can we still take what we know is beneficial about a focus on the body and being able to provide opportunities to move to different populations that may not otherwise have experience or access to that. David Devine: Sounds like a multidisciplinary endeavor. Heather Sutton: Yeah, there’s lots of possibilities. David Devine: Or interdisciplinary. Heather Sutton: Yeah, yeah. David Devine: Cool. All right, so this is my last question. This is more of like a me being interested. So this is my shower thought yesterday. So what I was thinking about was somatic psychology, it’s a specific type of therapy, I would I would assume, because it’s movement, not everybody wants to move. Some people want to talk right? I guess when people think of therapy, most of the time they think about psychotherapy, about talk therapy. So what I was wondering, obviously, there’s certain types of patients that would want somatic compared to psychotherapy. But is there certain types of personalities of a person that would lean more towards somatic compared to psychotherapy? Like, has anybody thought they wanted psychotherapy but their personality and how they’re — I guess astrologically built, leans more towards a somatic type of healing process. Heather Sutton: I think it’ just — it can be personality based, right? So some folks are drawn to a talk therapy where they want to do this deep inner work, kind of like Freudian psychoanalysis historically would have been, and there’s certainly analysts that are out there now practicing in that way that it’s kind of depth work. I think there’s folks that want to be able to talk about something in eight weeks or less and have a resolution to it. So a short term model is going to be more what they’re looking for. And I don’t think that there’s any — if I seek short term therapy, then I’m only the personality that wants short term therapy. I think in that moment, meeting that moment, that was what was the most helpful thing for me. So I think the same thing. I think sometimes with somatic counseling, and all of the different varieties and approaches to somatic counseling and dance movement therapy might be perfect for somebody right now. If it’s not perfect for them right now, in a few years, it might be. So, I think it depends on what their therapeutic goals are, what they’re seeking therapy for, how quickly they want relief, or to feel a different way about something, or to have additional skills to be able to address and approach something. I think the beauty is having all of the different things available to us. David Devine: Wonderful. Yeah. I was just thinking about, like, how I have a lot of friends and they’re just like, squirrely. I’m like, if you ever did therapy, it’d probably be somatic. You need to — you gotta move. Heather Sutton: It’s hard to predict, right? You might have the person that looks very stoic and is sitting still all the time that might really open up and come alive in a somatic program, and the folks that are always squirrely and moving might go to see a somatic therapist and say, no, I don’t want to put my attention there. I just want to talk, right? So it’s hard to predict. David Devine: Okay, well, this was a lovely conversation. I appreciate you coming in and speaking with us today about the Naropa experience, the student experience, and just like your experience as a — as a teacher and offering all this information. Heather Sutton: Yeah. David Devine: But before we leave, is there anything you would like to say last words and or social medias, or how anybody interested after listening to this podcast can reach out to you? Heather Sutton: Absolutely. I love our program. Our program is very special, and I think I speak — I don’t want to speak for my whole team, but I think our general consensus is that we are all very proud of the work that we’re doing, and we would love it if you came and explored options for being with us at Naropa. And you can get in contact with me through the Naropa website and talking with one of our admissions counselors, they would be able to connect you to me directly, if you wanted to speak with me directly. Heather Sutton: To find you, would be naropa.edu. Heather Sutton: Naropa.edu that’s right. David Devine: Yeah. See, look — I had to — I found you. This is how I do my research. Heather Sutton: There I am. David Devine: All right. Well, wonderful. Well, thank you so much for speaking with us today, and we really appreciate it. Heather Sutton: Thanks for having me. This was really fun. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community, thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates.