Candace & Cynthia [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host David Devine. And it's a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions -- Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement. [00:00:45.21] DAVID: Hello, today I'd like to welcome Candace Walworth and Cynthia Drake to the podcast. Candace is a core faculty member teaching in the Peace Studies program. Cynthia is also a core faculty member teaching in the Interdisciplinary Studies Program. So, thank you both for being here. ItÕs quite a treat to have two people. [00:01:01.17] Thank you, David. [00:01:02.14] Thank you. [00:01:04.05] DAVID: So is there anything else you'd like to highlight about yourself - that was a pretty quick description. [00:01:07.15] CYNTHIA: Yes. This is Cynthia. I've been teaching at Naropa now since 2007. And I've had all of the different categories of teaching jobs here. I started as an adjunct which is a part time teacher then I was an instructor for 2 years and now I am core faculty and I am the chair of the Interdisciplinary Studies department. My research interests and the things that I really care about in my teaching and my research include contemplative learning like trying to figure out what that is and how to share with students - how to use different parts of their beings -- their minds, their hearts, their bodies and bring that - all of that into their awareness. Use every part of themselves. I have a PhD in literature. I love literature and I love using literature as a way to learn about the human experience and I am particularly interested in colonialism and how ordinary people are impacted by colonialism on both sides of the colonial divide. I've studied the British empire for quite some time and I am also really interested in the settler colonialism of the United States. And the implications for people in the 21st century who - who have inherited that legacy. So, those are some things about me. [00:02:29.03] DAVID: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Candice is there anything else you'd like to say? [00:02:32.23] CANDACE: Sure. I've been teaching at Naropa since about 1990 or 1991 depending on how you think about time. And, I currently serve as the chair of the Peace Studies program. And, also the chair of Naropa's faculty senate which is Caldron. And since we're going to be speaking about interdisciplinarity this afternoon I think of that job as applied interdisciplinarity. And itÕs at the heart of one of my teaching and research interests as well which is paths of personal and social transformation. And what are the kids of knowledge skills and perspectives that are needed as a change maker. [00:03:13.12] DAVID: Wonderful. Nothing is more interdisciplinary than trying to get a bunch of faculty members together. LAUGHS. I feel like I want to start the conversation off with what is interdisciplinary? What is this thing? ItÕs a degree path here at Naropa. Can you unpack that a little bit more and kind of explain to the listener what that means? [00:03:31.21] CYNTHIA: Absolutely. So, in very simple terms interdisciplinary terms interdisciplinary means drawing upon multiple disciplines. Uh so some people might be a psychology major or others a religious studies major. For the interdisciplinary studies student they want to bring multiple disciplines together and so that's sort of the starting point. But where we go deeper and where it gets interesting here at Naropa is - that we require that our students - they don't just look at a few different disciplines - they bring them together in an interesting and original way. [00:04:11.11] And they look to see where the intersections of those different disciplines are. So, perhaps a student is deeply curious about trauma and the body and making art in response to that. That's a very interdisciplinary place. And, so that student might study some psychology. They might study some dance. They might study some art making. Its where all of those things come together in a quite magical way that the interdisciplinarity really shows up. Uh we could also think of it as trans-disciplinaries as in going beyond or through the particular disciplines but also integrating and integrative studies approach. [00:04:58.22] DAVID: I love the unique custom crafted directions that students can go with this. I actually graduated in the INTD Interdisciplinary program in 2012. So, I feel really charged with this conversation. So, thanks for sharing all that. [00:05:14.05] CYNTHIA: I'd like to ask Candace to speak to a term that is often used interdisciplinary studies - the term is bricolage. So, Candace will you start to unpack that term and speak to how it impacts your work? [00:05:28.21] CANDACE: Sure. I think of bricolage as an approach to interdisciplinary inquiry and to meaning making. It comes from a French word meaning to tinker. And, its sometimes associated with improvisation. Sometimes associated with do it yourself. I don't like that term as much because it is missing the collaborative aspect of interdisciplinary studies, but if you think about I think Levy Strauss was observing crafts people. And, noticing how they use materials that were left over from one project and created something new. So, this sense of giving birth to what does not yet exist. Improvising and using tools and also fashioning tools. Creating tools that didn't yet exist. [00:06:22.13] And I think of this as part of what Naropa students are particularly drawn to interdisciplinary studies because they have a sense of a complex problem or domain that they want to investigate that there is not a prescribed formula for what will either bring healing to a situation or bring people together who have been separated perhaps by political ideologies. So, this notion of not just using existing tools but fashioning new tools. [00:06:54.02] DAVID: Yes. That's beautiful. How do you say that? Bricolage? [00:06:57.06] CYNTHIA: Bricolage. Yes! [00:06:59.14] DAVID: See you learn something every day. Thank you. CYNTHIA: And I would add to this - that well first I want to say that I consider Candace an exemplary mentor in collaboration. In, how to work well with others. How to go deep with others. How to bring out the best in others. And I think that really relates to the - the both the tinkering and the bringing together aspects of bricolage. I feel like on a good day in interdisciplinary studies lots of things are bumping into each other. New ideas. People. Energies. And, we don't always know what's going to happen when things meet and bump into each other. And sometimes we have to improvise. Sometimes we have to just do it on the fly and then we see what comes of it. I think that one of the things that I really love about the bringing multiple things together and then -- figuring out what we're going to do with those things in the moment is - we have to bring anything and everything into the situation. And I think this is something that is - there is a strong ethos for here at Naropa - this idea that - we don't have to reject any part of ourselves. Any part of our history. Any part of our identity. Any part of experience and when we go deep - because we go deep in a lot of ways at Naropa - uh in our contemplative practices, in our inner work - we meet parts of ourselves that we may not have met before. That we may not be comfortable. That we might even be embarrassed about and the training that we do in the tinkering world of bricolage gives us some tools to work skillfully with these parts of ourselves that we need. [00:08:47.07] [00:08:48.07] DAVID: Yeah, there is a feeling of giving the students an empowerment to either use tools they haven't used before and or develop a tool that is unique to their craft and their direction. I can see how this is extremely useful. [00:09:02.02] CYNTHIA: Yes, and I feel as if I am constantly learning things. I mean one of the things we say a lot at Naropa is that the teachers learn from the students and the students learn from the teachers. And that we're all just in this process - maybe a meaning making or a tool making or a play making process of discovering new things, going deeper with our own learning. [00:09:24.17] DAVID: Thank you. [00:09:25.18] CANDACE: Well I'm especially interested Cynthia since I know you've been teaching the Contemplative Learning Seminar at Naropa for a number of years - I am curious about how you see contemplative learning and practices as deepening interdisciplinary study or intersecting with interdisciplinary studies? [00:09:45.04] CYNTHIA: Contemplative practice intersects with interdisciplinary studies at Naropa all the time. And, itÕs always so particular both to the student and the moment. So, for some of our students at Naropa - meditation practice is a big part of their life. ItÕs a daily practice. Perhaps they have a particular meditation tradition that they are affiliated with and for people who engage in a practice whether its meditation or yoga or a kirtan chanting or singing or rapping - that practice - the coming back over and over again to a practice opens up meaning for them. And then that experience of coming back and going deeper with something then when they are engaged with those inner disciplinary intersections in their work - in the work that they are doing for their capstone project or their thesis project. They have new tools, new resources, new skills in perhaps sitting with the discomfort of a discovery or the discomfort of even not knowing. You know because while Naropa is - we're often on a horizon of trying new things. Of drawing upon ancient wisdom traditions, but also cutting-edge technologies, inner technologies perhaps while all of those things are true, but we're also a university and we offer degrees and so we have to - write papers, and sometimes even take tests. And the tools that we develop through our contemplative practice give us new ways of working with some of these more traditional forms. [00:11:35.20] I am wondering what thoughts you - you don't - haven't taught the contemplative learning seminar but I think you've been steeped in this tradition here at Naropa of contemplative learning and contemplative engagement and I am wondering what thoughts you have about this? [00:11:51.15] CANDACE: Cynthia I was just thinking about a number of years ago I was a student of Joko Beck and participated in sessions with her for about 13 years. For those of you listeners who don't know who Joko Beck was. She was an American Zen teacher located in San Diego. And I remember one particular session - I was assigned to be the head breakfast cook. And when I saw my name listed there as the head breakfast cook - my heart just sank. It was like the last thing that I wanted to do to cook breakfast for 60 people. And about dawn that morning I remember having a conversation with Joko as a part practice where I vehemently expressed my distress at this job that I had been given. And she looked at me really quizzically and she said Candace so what if you blow it. So, what if breakfast really uh -- is a mess. We are about a 5-minute walk away from a grocery store where you could bring back bread and peanut butter for everyone and you know what - they wouldn't like that breakfast, but it would be ok. [00:13:02.22] So the spirit of improvisation with working with what is. Being willing to take risks to do something that is way out of your comfort zone. And to learn in the process and maybe even discover qualities of your own body, heart and mind. That perhaps were obscured because up to that point I had been living in the safety of not having been put in that position of being the head cook. So that's an analogy, but I feel like that spirit is part of the spirt that I bring to teaching and to mentoring interdisciplinary study students at Naropa. [00:13:43.02] [00:13:44.04] DAVID: Yeah, itÕs also fun to think about where is that coming from. What's the root of that feeling. So, you're like second guessing yourself. So, the contemplative model allows you to almost kind of stop and be like ok I have anxiety. I have something coming up triggered is happening. So, you can have a moment where you are just like I feel triggered and then you breath. You have a conversation with someone and then you realize that's coming from something that is not serving me and so you can route it back to what does serve you. So, itÕs having a practice and informing that in the education you know. How you are saying about coming to disasters and realizing there is a lot of growth and information within those. You know and itÕs the ego that puts the - itÕs this or that sort of thing on it. But the being just feels. [00:14:31.02] [00:14:31.23] CYNTHIA: Yeah, and Candace you were speaking a moment ago about the mentoring relationship in interdisciplinary studies - this is something - I think mentoring is really big at Naropa and its one of the things that Mark says is a very special school but we are so steeped in mentoring in interdisciplinary studies and I am wondering if you would like to speak a little bit about some mentoring experiences that you've had or one experience that you've had. [00:14:58.13] CANDACE: Yeah, I am thinking about fall semester I taught the Capstone II project at Naropa. And, it was a diverse group comprised of Peace Studies majors and interdisciplinary studies majors. Some of who knew one another and some of whom did not. And, for me part of what was really amazing about working with that group was trying to create a learning environment in which the students would mentor on another as well as - I of course had a mentoring role and I also was able to serve as kind of a hub if you will for pointing students to resources in the larger Naropa community and in the Boulder community at large and sometimes beyond in networks that just happened to be part of my professional and activists networks. So, mentoring for me is multi-dimensional. And at its best it draws for the mentor in the students as well as the faculty member. [00:16:04.03] And, itÕs a kind of circulation system. Circulation of different ways of knowing and it also acknowledges any complex process like writing a thesis. There will be moments where students are disappointed and discouraged. And there will be other moments where they are elated. And you know kind of l like feeling the exhilaration of the creative and intellectual discovery. So, for me there is part of that uh learning community is trying to create the potential for folks to support one another when they are down and the celebrate one another when they are having one of those emphasis. [00:16:45.17] [00:16:46.07] DAVID: Yeah and the mentoring this is part of the program so the students during their journey they have to get a mentor to inform the path that they have chosen - is this correct? [00:16:56.19] CANDACE: That's right yes. Students are encouraged to work with at least two mentors who work in disciplines that the students are concentrating on and then students have - what we call an inner INTD or interdisciplinary studies mentor as well and that inner mentor helps work with the student as they're in that final phase of completing their thesis work and their thesis project. [00:17:25.03] Which is a very intensive process. ItÕs a minimum two semester process of doing the INTD thesis. We ask students to engage in some research. To - select and craft an original question. So, starting with a question of something that they don't have an answer to and maybe nobody has come to an answer to related to their different concentrations. And then engage in some research and then - produce some work. It can be more traditional academic paper. It can also be a creative project along with a slightly reduced academic paper or a social entrepreneurial project. So, the student begins their work in the first semester completes their work in the 2nd semester and then showcases it in the Naropa festival. Which is our new wonderful festival in May that - in which all of our graduating seniors get to showcase their work. ItÕs just a really fabulous thing. And so, this mentoring process is intimate, its structured. Its - itÕs an opportunity for...we faculty to help cheerlead as well as guide students towards completion of their project and itÕs an opportunity for students to go in many cases deeper than they've ever gone before with an academic project as well as with a project that they're going to showcase and share with the world. So, itÕs a really precious moment. [00:19:02.11] DAVID: ItÕs a cheerleader and a challenger - because they do challenge you which is really great for informing the process that you are taking on. CANDACE: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, I am just thinking about some of the capstones projects and Cynthia wondering if you could talk a little bit about one of the projects this semester and maybe highlighting some of the interdisciplinary characteristics? CYNTHIA: Right, so I am teaching the capstone - the final capstone course this semester and so I am working - I am deep in it with all of the students as they are coming to completion with this project that they have been working on - some of them for many months. And, one project that comes to mind is the work of a student, Edward Galan, who has - his project has morphed over the months. So, I think he has been at this for years in different phases. He started with this curiosity about ideological polarity and then this sort of form of discourse in the United States right now that is just all about fighting and all about beating the opponent and setting people up as the opponent. So, he was curious about alternatives to that. About the whole democratic system and how it works and how people can be genuinely plugged in and then that. So, he did a lot of research in these domains and that lead him to some exploration of polarity and how to work with polarity and transcending polarity and now he's at a place where he is looking at - strategies on an individual level - strategies for people to be present with difficult opinions. And, how to work with that. As a way of - not shutting down and not just trying to beat the opponent but actually find some common ground. Find a place of shared humanity. ItÕs been so exciting this semester watching his process and seeing him come to an end point and also to collect material for further research. CANDACE: Cynthia I am thinking about another student who I mentored who has graduated. His name is Patrick Martin. His capstone thesis was called Contemplative Media Studies. And if I had to try to distill the essence of the problem that he was addressing - it was I think he would call it media dependency or media addiction and Pat by nature is - I think he would call himself a philosopher humanist. Very influenced by a study of literature, history and philosophy. And part of his studies at Naropa I think were then to - he studied social psychology as well as Peace studies and trying to understand ways of - addressing the kind of polarization perhaps similar to Edward but using contemplative media and uh digital media technologies. [00:22:15.16] DAVID: Nice. Very cool. CYNTHIA: Yeah, well I know Candace shares the sense that working with our students is such an honor and itÕs such a pleasure and it so inspiring. I feel the possibility for our shared human future when I work with students. [00:22:38.06] DAVID: Yeah, beautiful. CANDACE: I'd like to also note that Pat Martin has recently been accepted to the Joan B. Kroc School of International Peace Studies at the University of San Diego where he will be pursuing a masters in peace and justice studies. CYNTHIA: Oh, that's great. [00:22:54.18] DAVID: That's amazing. So, it sounds like with these interdisciplinary studies degrees there is so many different directions you can go. There are so many different skills that you acquire over time. And there is like so many different ways that you see what you're learning and then you deconstruct it and then you have to learn a different way and itÕs just all exciting. How does the interdisciplinary studies degree program and information that they collect with the contemplative model - how does that inform when you step into the real world becoming a professional and diving deeper into your careers? CYNTHIA: So, I can speak a little bit and then if you have things to share Candace - INTD students go in lots of different directions. Some of them go immediately to graduate school uh we have a student graduate from last year who is now in a PhD program in California uh we have some students who go on and get counseling degrees. Students who start non-profits, go to law school. So, our students tend to be high achievers. They work really hard to do this intensive thesis that we were just talking about and they're able to leverage that hard work into the next phase of their life whether its further training, professional training, vocational training or - starting their own non-profit. We have one student this semester who is starting a retreat center in Mexico when he returns home to Mexico next year. They're really an extraordinary group of students and every year we seem to have another collection of really extraordinary students who have a sense - they may not know precisely what they are going to do next. Or what they are going to do even 5 years from now, but they have a sense that they want to make an impact on the world. And, they go out and - and do that work. [00:24:46.09] DAVID: Yes. CANDACE: Maybe I'd just add - I met recently with one of our alums who when she was here she did an internship with SPAN. Which stands for the Safe House Progressive Alliance for Non Violence. And I believe that year she was awarded with SPAN's volunteer of the year award. She went on to - Thailand where she did a teaching English as a second language program in Chiang Mai. Not sure how many years she was there teaching English, maybe 2 years. Maybe 3 years. And part of what she - shared with me when she was here is a publication -- she worked in Thailand with a non-profit that was working with women who are - involved with the sex trade and sex work. And uh one of the things that she shared with me is about both the foundation that she created for that work - both her internship that's in reference to the notion that the real world is after graduation. I think the real world is here in the student's present moment education. [00:25:53.23] DAVID: Yeah, is kind of nebulous you could say. CANDACE: Uh and we really encourage them to take advantage of actually being embedded in a community with a lot of vibrant social and ecological work that then can serve them in future work. Maybe in different domains like for her it was intercultural, international. She learned Thai and so itÕs in another language but still I think building on foundational knowledge skills and perspectives both from her undergraduate studies here but as well with her community partner - with SPAN. [00:26:28.15] DAVID: Yeah, so much information about this topic that I feel like we can just keep going. And sense it does span multiple degree programs and it spans multiple interests you can uniquely kind of pick whatever you want, whatever you're feeling and whatever direction you want to go in. [00:26:44.14] And that feels extremely empowering. CANDACE: Yes, INTD is very much about self-authorship. Students determining what it is that they need to learn about and pursuing learning and then uh making projects or doing work that engages that learning. [00:27:05.17] DAVID: And they get to pick their own project too. They get to pick what they want to write about. They get to pick the project they get to showcase either to the community or to the glass. CANDACE: That's right. CYNTHIA: Yeah and maybe another thing that is worth saying for any perspective interdisciplinary study students who are listening to this is that itÕs also possible to show up at Naropa and not know. Maybe not even to know what your passions are. Maybe you have so many that you feel vague or nebulous. We have a phenomena here that I sometimes refer to as the zig zag path where students go one direction for another and then another direction for a while and I think often times just honing and refining what is my question really. What are the communities that I hope to serve? And that I am already embedded that I may not even know it. [00:27:58.06] DAVID: Yes. Wow, so thank you so much for sharing the podcast with me today. It was really nice to dive deeper into this program, that I really do feel passionate about. I did have the zig zag moment. I actually came here not knowing - I was like oh yeah, I have to pick a degree. I came here just like wanting to go to school, wanting to have a contemplative edge and I forgot I had to pick a direction. So, itÕs really nice hearing that you don't need to know and even sometimes when you leave college you still don't know. But its ok to not know and as long as you are moving forward in the good stuff then itÕs all good. CYNTHIA: That's right. Thank you very much. CANDACE: Thank you David. [00:28:36.14] DAVID: Thank you so much. So, I'd like to thank Candace Walworth and Cynthia Drake for joining me on the podcast today. BOTH: Thank you. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]