Nataraja & Ben "Yoga Traditions and Studies" [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host David Devine. And it's a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions -- Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:44.00] David: Hello. Today I'd like to welcome Nataraja Kallio and Ben Williams to the podcast. They both teach under the yoga studies program. Nataraja is the program chair and also a Naropa grad himself. And Ben is also a core faculty member graduating from Harvard University. So welcome both of you. Nataraja & Ben: Thanks. Thanks David. Good to be here. [00:01:02.11] David: So how you all feeling today? [00:01:04.12] Nataraja & Ben: Wonderful. ItÕs a beautiful sunny shiny day. [00:01:08.10] David: It is a beautiful sunny shiny day. Yes. So, I am curious - tell me about your journey to yoga. How did you discover this art? Why did you choose this one? There is so many different like body practices. Artistic endeavors you can take on. I am just curious what is it about yoga that draw you to the practice? [00:01:29.05] Ben: Sure. I can start. This is Ben. Well hatha -- postural yoga - is something I came to a little later in my life. I really began practicing meditation. So, the more meditative yoga traditions was the foundation of my interest. And also, some of the philosophies associated with yoga traditions. Very early on I read this text called the Yoga Vasistha and its an extraordinary text full of narrative stories. ItÕs kind of mind bending and reality altering as you read it. It has this powerful effect -- [00:02:03.12] David: Spiritual metaphysical stuff? [00:02:05.10] Ben: Well, it plays with how the mind constructs reality. And how in fact all realities are projection of the mind. It also gets into stories about rebirth and the way we get swept into conditioned existence and how it - it deludes us. But it does it through narrative. Anyways, itÕs got these beautiful yoga teachings. So, I initially got into these traditions through that kind of outlet. And then - I deepened my study by going to school - going to graduate school. First study religions as an undergrad and then studying Sanskrit in the India philosophy. So, at the same time - my yoga practice I always was connected to devotion. And the devotional element of these traditions, but non the less as much of bookdah or a devotee that I was - the knowledge aspect - you know the Gita teaches the yoga of knowledge - the yoga of devotion for example. The knowledge aspect really become a deep continuity in my life that I followed through intensive study. So, as I was a grad student studying Sanskrit and Indian philosophy you know I had recently finished my PhD last July - [00:03:18.04] David: Congratulations. [00:03:19.04] Ben: Thank you. I realized that being a grad student and studying this intensively in a kind of rigorous intellectual environment is not really conducive to embodiment. And so, in that process I kind of really discovered hatha yoga. Like the practice of asana. And fell in love with it for its own sake. It really became a grounding balancing thing. Before I used to do it, so I could sit longer without you know pain in my hips and knees and lower back. That was my initial - I really was a meditator. That was like my - what got me going, but then I was like wow I started to discover you know these natural openings and this kind of joy welling up in my cells just from doing hatha yoga. And then I was like wow this is just a very powerful tradition and practice in its own right. Uh and so that's a little bit of my yoga biography I guess. [00:04:16.13] David: Yeah, itÕs like the body meditation that you discovered through the meditation. [00:04:21.11] Ben: Yeah, exactly. [00:04:22.21] David: Quite a journey. [00:04:23.03] Ben: Some people go the other direction. They start with the bodily physical practices and then discover the inner heart of yoga. And I went the opposite way. So -- [00:04:33.14] David: Very cool. [00:04:34.08] Nataraja: I was uh a product of the 60s generation. Born and raised in a Hindu community. Uh given a Sanskrit name and my parents have an Indian teacher and so I think there was roots of this tradition from the beginning, but nevertheless got to also quickly discover the complexities of community and spirituality as the community kind of shattered apart. But to make a long story short I ended up in India at age 18 and spent about 8 of the next 15 years there immersing myself in both the Bhakti devotional traditions -- the wisdom traditions you might say of the danta and the sematic kind of base traditions of hatha yoga. But I think you know what really brought the practice and tradition alive for me was just having the blessing encounter with some very meaningful teachers. A mentor who certainly I think in the spirit of alchemy really showed the practices ability to leave like no stone unturned. Utilize every aspect of our experience as a part of the path. And that I think landed the practice in a very meaningful way in my own life. That it wasn't based on faith. It wasn't based on an assumed belief or philosophy but an experiential transformational dimension that affected every aspect of my life from the most mundane to the most sublime. [00:06:08.03] David: Oh my gosh. Wow, yoga just goes deep. So -- you told me about your journey and how you discovered the practice and how implement the practice. Can you tell me what is it about the practice that you like? How does it inform your life? Why have you stuck with it? Why have you devoted your life? Why have you wanted to teach others this art? [00:06:32.22] Ben: One thing that comes to mind - one of earliest definitions of yoga - vasistha - a sacred text is from the Upanishad. And it describes yoga as this state once the horses of the senses have been reined in. So, there is this metaphor of a chariot and at this time horse driven chariots were an important part of the culture. So, it was a powerful metaphor and resonates throughout medieval India. Anyways, metaphor comes back again and again. Something about harnessing all of the mental energies is kind of internal mastery uh not letting the mind become your master. But, becoming a master of the mind. I really see that just as a foundational kind of inner technology then you know many yoga traditions emphasize. And how does it inform our life. You know when the mind is not running the show for me - I find this extraordinary thing happens that my perception actually becomes more beautiful. I see things in crisper way. I find beauty in unexpected places. Including in painful or dark situations. And I am able to extract more joy, inspiration and meaning out of life. So, teaching it - you know one of the things I really aim to share here at Naropa with the students is a certain kind of viveka to use the Sanskrit term - it means discrimination or discernment. And the tradition - inner discernment or discernment of experiences foundational to yoga traditions but I like to play with the term and expand its meaning so when I speak about discernment I also speak about a kind of historical awareness - the ability to discern between many different extremes in yoga traditions and understanding their fundamental orientations and outlooks. And practices. And not letting them all get mixed up into this jumble. And this very vague notion of yoga, but actually appreciating the depth and integrity of each - and then when drawing from them. Therefore, having more access to their power. To their transformational power. And I think that's something that in the broader world of yoga practice is deeply missing. Is the kind of viveka. So, that's one thing I think in my teaching here that I like to try to bring. [00:09:14.21] David: Awesome. Thank you. [00:09:17.04] Nataraja: It strikes me that there is two reasons people come to this practice generally. I think both have been very true from you. One is just longing. You know? I mean curious about what's the deal? Right? [00:09:31.00] David: What is this about? [00:09:31.20] Nataraja: Yeah exactly. And, the other - probably more common for many of us itÕs just pragmatic. That when we - take an honest look at our - our mind for the first time and realize wow - maybe not the fine audience listening but perhaps more myself. Well, I'm distracted like 90% of the time and agitated the other 10%. Uh - itÕs not to become depressed but just to have an appreciation of kind of the baseline of -- of where we all are. Or so many of us are psychologically and to really feel how much suffering is born from that. And so, yoga offers just this extraordinary ocean of technology to access, take a - penetrating look at and transform the nature of mind. And I think there is dual process of developmental process of ok realizing that I am just not hard wired to suffer - I can actually take upon practices or life choices that develop the qualities I value. And, simultaneously there this discovery process where yoga is pointing to the timeless essence nature of being. That is beyond a developmental process and I think they both work hand in hand. And so, I found you know there was this incredible practice of unfolding body - subtle body and mind - as well as this mirror of who am I? Who am I? That continuously began to surface - this feeling of returning home. Of no longer just being located and myself images, my projections, my beliefs, my aversions and preferences - but discovering there is another option you know of where I locate as a psyche. [00:11:31.17] David: Wow. What I am hearing from kind of both of is this understanding of body is also understanding of mind and becoming the master of your mind, having skillful discernment and realizing the skillful looking at what you're actually thinking about throughout the day but through the mechanical practice through the body - the mind is able to also develop because the brain ends up - is a muscle. You know so itÕs also this other muscle that you are working, but itÕs this metaphysical muscle that inhibits us in many different ways and itÕs just really interesting to hear this - like I have never heard it this way. ItÕs like - itÕs just like oh itÕs a work out practice. I want to look good or you know I want to be able to touch my toes or something. But what I am hearing is this mastery of mind - this mastery of body and this mastery of life. [00:12:25.00] Nataraja: The basic axiom I think of hatha yoga is really born in the appreciation of the inner relationship of in Sanskrit the terms prana and chitta - prana basically means life force but in the quantum physics perspective that means everything from this dense table to the subtlest feelings - are expressions of prana. And its counterpart chitta is consciousness or chit is consciousness and the two are said to almost like dancers in unison or fish swim in tandem as one moves the opposite -- or the other follows. So just - and itÕs not abstract. You can just feel how every thought, every emotion I have leaves a pattern or creates a pattern of sensation in the body. And, if I affect change in my body it also affects quality of wakefulness or presence so the two are continuously revealing each other and expressing and affecting each other. [00:13:20.11] David: Yeah, it sounds like yoga is making you be present, be mindful of the actual thoughts and the actual body processes you have throughout the day. Very cool. [00:13:28.13] Ben: Yeah and just to jump on that a little. The way that prana shows up in the body is that's the breath. And that breath practice is so fundamental and so this connection between breath and mind is so fundamental and you know - just like the body never lies, the breath never lies you know. You want to know what kind of state of mind you're in just look at what happens with your breath. [00:13:59.01] Nataraja: And that's actually the first practice we'll do in a yoga 1 class is appreciate how the breath is - a mirror is reflecting to us our state of nervous system and mind. And itÕs a tool by affecting skillfully changing the breath we begin to affect change and the quality of our tissues and attention. [00:14:17.20] David: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. That was awesome. So, I am kind of curious - how did both of you end up at Naropa. Why Naropa because you probably could have taught at a yoga studio. You probably could have just toured India for the rest of your life or just sat in sanghas and taught at ashrams or whatever. So, what is it about Naropa and how did you end up here? [00:14:40.19] Ben: Well you know traveling India for the rest of my life sounds really good first of all especially if I had a nice motorcycle. [00:14:46.19] David: Yeah it sounds fun. [00:14:48.14] Ben: And then a motorcycle and it would take a lifetime to exhaust India's sacred geography. And -- cultural diversity. And spiritual depth. And sanity. But you know my training prepared me to be at a university because I did a PhD in the history of religions and these things. That's true I could have applied to more traditional university setting and really focused on that. I was actually in India writing my dissertation when I applied for Naropa and I flew back to Colorado for my interview from India. And I was living there with my wife who is from India. She is Mumbai and she was teaching at a school in the foothills of the Himalayas. So, we - I was up there in the foothills which is the perfect place to write a dissertation. And I was - I felt so supported uh it was a real blessing. I experienced so my solace there. So yeah, I was in this very idyllic place writing and applying for jobs and I remember coming here to Naropa and you know compared to the other interviews I had because I did apply to a few places - I was immediately struck by how warm - the search committee was. LAUGHS. I mean they were like - they were really like welcoming genuinely you know from a heart level. This is something I love -- [00:16:06.23] David: I love our committees. [00:16:08.15] Ben: Yeah exactly this was something I have spoken with Amelia Hall about - I mean she actually did her PhD at Oxford and she is here teaching Buddhism and you know she's had other academics come and visit Naropa and CU for conferences and they're like wow the people are genuinely kind here you know like - it is actually weird. Uh when you become familiar with academia. Maybe not in other settings. So, it actually is novel. So that's one thing is the kind of - a group of colleagues who are actually doing inner work. Who are just extremely interesting people and multi-dimensional people. But where inner life is something that they don't have a superficial relationship with. I really am impressed by the faculty. And they really bring their own lineages of practice and sensitivity and depth and they are really holding something. Each one of them. So just feeling into these lineages and this confluence that is Naropa. And then seeing how that's so important for modeling and creating an environment for contemplative education. For me itÕs been very integrating because in academia my practitioner side was like cards behind my back you know. LAUGHS. I was completely concealed. And here I'm - you know this past semester I taught a course on yoga meditation - a practicum. Where we actually dove in the practice for many yoga traditions. So, it was an incredibly integrating thing to - to bring my knowledge of the traditions and the roots of the traditions together with my practitioner self. [00:17:53.16] David: Awesome. [00:17:55.06] Ben: Yeah and so -- you know hats off to Naropa and its history and legacy for creating a space where that kind of thing can happen. [00:18:01.10] David: Yeah, there is definitely a lot of lineages being held here and a lot of different unique perspectives all kind of like colliding together and sharing and informing each other and just deepening everyone else's practice you know because when you're around the practice you practice. So very cool. [00:18:16.13] Ben: Yeah. [00:18:17.06] Nataraja: That question really makes me reflect on serendipity and synchronicity because I was in Nepal and I got in a bit of trouble with the immigration because I had overstayed my visa unbeknownst to me 40 days. They - in Thailand they stamped my visa for 30 days, but three smudged into an 8 so I thought I had 80 days. And, as a part of that which ended up causing me to try and sneak out of Nepal and thus sneak into India and thus be introduced to yoga fresh for the you know - so anyways, but anyways as a part of that overstay in Nepal I ended up uh studying with a Tibetan meditation master named (?) Rinpoche and he had lived in this hermitage up on the mountain outside of Katmandu and one day studying with him I was usually as the - as one of the only westerners I was suddenly surprised when the door opened and in come walking like 15 American students. And I couldn't help afterwards but ask who are you? Where are you from? Because I wasn't used to being around other 20 year old uh westerners. And they said oh we're from Naropa. And -- I said what's that? I've heard of the - the - the teacher at Naropa but didn't know it was an actual place. And so, I said wait you're getting credit for this? So, that planted a seed that didn't really - come to fruition till many years later when I arrived here but Naropa suddenly it was on my map of a unique place where practice and such things like yoga and Buddhist meditation were uh a part of the curricula. [00:20:03.10] David: Yeah and you got both of your degrees, here right? [00:20:04.16] Nataraja: I finished my undergrad and then did my grad work here too. [00:20:09.07] David: Yeah, you're just in Nepal just like I can get - I can get credits for just being here? This is awesome. Cool. So, I am kind of curious what is it like teaching the students here - we teach in a contemplative model. Like what does that actually mean in yoga compared to like a yoga studio. All the teachers show up with like their inspirational quotes and let me show you how to move your elbow back a little bit further - I don't know like how is teaching in the contemplative model different from teaching in the yoga class and like what can the students expect in the yoga class at Naropa? [00:20:46.01] Ben: Um well we have a pretty comprehensive curriculum in yoga studies. ItÕs just developing more and more. So, what you could expect in one of Nataraja's class is different than what you could expect in one of my classes. Just -- so in terms of uh the classes I teach like yoga history, theory and philosophy - I teach a course on Hindu tantra where we look at tantric yoga uh yoga traditions within the tantras. Not Buddhist tantras but Hindu quote unquote Hindu tantras. You know there is this interesting thing happening right now in the yoga world which is a kind of - a growing interest in understanding what is yoga philosophy? You know I've been doing this practice - I know its transformative. I know I like it. And I know when my yoga teacher you know shares these inspirational quotes they resonate, but where are they from. You know how does this actually connect to a deeper tradition. And how can I feel connected to that in a meaningful way and then from that impulse there is a whole other series of impulses like well what's the history of this tradition? So, I think this is actually - there is like this stirring right now in the broader yoga world and there is evidence of this stirring. One is that a lot of scholars who are scholars of yoga are actually being hired to teach as a part of yoga teacher trainings. And they'll teach Sanskrit pronunciation. The skrit - how you correctly pronounce dandasana for example. But also teaching the philosophy and the history uh one of the classical things that a lot of modern yogis look to is the Patanjali and the yoga sutras - the aphorisms on yoga of Patanjali which is kind of classical yoga. Most teacher trainings just focus on a tiny little segment of the text. And ignore the rest. So, itÕs very non comprehensive approach so therefore there is this call for scholars to come in and supplement. So, there is this turning happening within broader yoga communities. On the other hand, within academia there is a kind of surge of the field of yoga studies. There is great research happening right now. There is the EU just funded a huge grant - like a 10 - I think itÕs a 10 year grant to do research on the history of yoga. So, this is coming from incredibly well established sources to support this research because of yoga as a global phenomenon right and how itÕs really become this global thing. So, I think that the thing that we offer here - even if you did a yoga teacher training or even if you did workshops with some of these scholars you're kind of left to your own devices. You draw a little knowledge here. You combine it with some other thing you heard from this other scholar. You combine with it what your yoga teacher taught you and that lineage of teaching. Which is often idiosyncratic and there is a sense that you're - you don't really have a context for a deep training where you can bring these things together. Not only in your experience, but in your understanding. And so, I think the power of a yoga studies program that is hosted at a university and particularly a university that's a pioneer of contemplative education - is that we can actually do a deep immersion in these things and its consistent. You get this training from Nataraja and company. We have other excellent yoga teachers here as well. And that training is in the whole sematic depth of the tradition as well as working with all of these elements - the body, the subtle body you know the energy centers - thinking about it in light of Ayurveda and other healing traditions in India working with the breath you know and then in addition to that you have a space to really have a consistent immersion and a developing understanding of the history and philosophy of yoga traditions. And, this can unlock - I see it as a broader maturation of the yoga world itself actually. You know and itÕs a space where that can start to happen. ItÕs a really unique environment and then in addition to that the contemplative context allows for the meditative practice of yoga to really be done - it gives space for that to be explored and integrated in a much more powerful way. And, that's something that's really missing often from the yoga studios and yoga workshops. So, all of these things I think really distinguish our program. [00:25:27.00] David: Yeah, I am hearing a wholistic approach. There is - itÕs not a fragmented approach where you're just getting the body. You're just getting the philosophy, the teachings, the theory, the learning how to pronounce the words sort of vibe that you're getting all of that and itÕs not just like a teacher training course where itÕs over a month or two or three. ItÕs an actual school where you come for a couple semesters. You get a degree and then you're learning all this stuff together with a cohort. And you just - you're acquiring all the knowledge from different aspects of this - this like really thick lineage. Its phenomena as you like to say. That has been around for a really long time. [00:26:09.19] Nataraja: Yes indeed. And being situated in a university context as the only accredited undergraduate yoga studies program in the world. Gives us actually the time to even begin this ambitious endeavor to try and cover both the breathed and the depth academically and experientially with this tradition. A scholar describes this tradition as the oldest, longest, literature tradition on the planet. ItÕs not the oldest necessarily. ItÕs not the longest enduring. Of course, itÕs not the only literate but it is the oldest, longest, literate tradition on the planet. So, both in terms of the philosophical tradition, a practitioner tradition and of course yoga as an experience is quite broad. And takes time. And so, we just feel fortunate to be able to offer courses over 2, 3, or 4 years that really touch on the multitudinous, dimensions of yoga. [00:27:16.11] David: Yeah, so - so you could almost say with the longevity of time we have amongst the semesters and the people that you are working with and having a relationship with the teachers and the faculty that you're able to capture the essence of it a bit more other than just kind of like going through a program. [00:27:38.00] Ben: Yeah, I think part of it is you're able to integrate the broad range of knowledge that seems to be coming from disparate sources that otherwise is difficult to organize and integrate within yourself. But you're also starting to kind of open your eyelids to the diversity and plurality of yoga. And you're receiving tools to connect that diversity and plurality of this August tradition into your own practice. And also, to navigate it. So, often people are interested in a single essence of yoga. And once they get it then they stop thinking. We actually - we're at a university where we never want to stop that process. We want this to be a lifelong learning endeavor. You don't do the two week certificate program and you're done and start teaching. That's the problem. With people who are teaching. I tell my students - I am learning every single time I re-read the yoga sutras - I am learning more. I will never feel I mastered that text. In India you re-read text your whole life. You don't read it once and think you understand it. So, what we want at a university to have our students grapple with is the multiple essences and then maybe bring those together into this tincture. That's a really nuanced and complex engagement with the history of yoga traditions including the history of the modern postural yoga, which happened in dialogue with all kinds of streams within colonial India. Including the history of global transmissions of these ideas. Right? How do these ideas transmit across cultures, across civilizational boundaries and how are they adapted into new context? How do you go from Patanjali to doing yoga on horses? Right? There's a story to be told there. ItÕs an interesting story actually. ItÕs not just crass appropriation. ItÕs an interesting story. And itÕs the story of the west reception of the east as well. To recognize you're a part of that story - is to also recognize a deeper part of your identity, right? And so, this might be my approach but itÕs not to simplify - itÕs to complexify. And then hopefully give students the tools to move through that and become powerful articulate agents within this broader yoga community. [00:30:23.02] Nataraja: I think one of the first things that surfaces is the - the realization that this is not a monolithic tradition. That itÕs as radically dynamic now as it has been for thousands of years. That there are many traditions within this umbrella of yoga. Some had a very transcendental arc you know where yoga to put it kind of crudely was an exit strategy. And from there emerged more integrated views of the path that saw it not as an escape model but as embodiment model. And didn't end with a particular teacher or book. That's why we see it shape shifting as much now as it has for - for millennia. So, we look at ok what are our assumptions about yoga now and its relationship to antiquity because I think there is a tendency to kind of mangle history a bit to try and make what is now the same as what was. So, simultaneously being honest about some of the real chasms that exist between modern day yoga and its origins and roots, but then simultaneously also looking - what are the through lines that do connect both in aspiration and realization you know. What Patanjali was experiencing to what we're looking at now. [00:31:44.18] David: Yeah, itÕs like yoga is the root to so many different things whether its spiritual, whether its body practice, whether itÕs just theorizing historical - there is so many different things that can just come from this thing and I feel like most people who aren't deeply in the idea of what yoga is they just sort of see it as like a body practice - something to get fit. Something to probably feel good and what they don't realize there is a really huge tradition and steeped in this thick history of theory and knowledge and philosophy and just body practice and whether you are trying to have an exit strategy or whether you are trying to be more grounded on the earth and connect with your community. There is so many different directions you can go. I mean I didn't know this till right now. You know so this is the learning experience for me too. I am going to be taking your guy's classes this semester. You know - [00:32:41.07] Ben: We're waiting for you to sign up. [00:32:42.07] David: I know. Here we go. So, I got one more question for you and when a student takes this program and they graduate - what do they get? What is that they are able to do afterwards? You get more than a certificate or like a signed piece of paper or something. So, like what is it that they receive, and they can do? [00:33:03.23] Ben: Well, I think as Nataraja mentioned earlier we have a unique program because you can get a bachelor's degree in yoga studies and there is no other university - you know accredited university worldwide but just definitely in the United States there is no other university where you can get a BA. I just got an email recently of a program trying to do a yoga minor. There is a few universities that have a yoga teacher training as like a certificate program through their physical education and gymnasiums you know kind of context at the university. But, what's interesting about getting a BA in yoga studies is we can say we're the first to offer that in the US at least. And, that means what you do with it is kind of new and open. I am new to the program. Nataraja can speak more about our alumni and the kind of work they have been doing, but I think there is like a lot of really interesting in roads whether you make a career as a yoga teacher or you become a proprietor of yoga and you develop a yoga studio. Whether you design retreats and workshops that are held in places like Costa Rica. LAUGHS. Or Bali. LAUGHS. [00:34:13.12] David: Never heard of that. [00:34:14.22] Ben: Yeah, exactly. What is clear is that there is a market. There is no doubt that there is a market for working in this industry and what I think our program will distinguish people within that world by giving them all these tools we've been talking about and hopefully they will be able to bring more depth and more knowledge and more learning and sensitivity to those communities that they build and that they foster. So, that's just a first pass but Nataraja maybe can give you some more data driven -- [00:34:45.00] Nataraja: Spot on. You know a lot of our alumni they utilize their education in very different directions. A number have actually opened yoga studios from New York to Washington. Others make it their private practice you know teaching either privately or in various established studies. Some have taken it into -- health and healing work. So, they are working in different health agencies and veteran centers and prisons. And, I think this is really what has inspired the soon to be launch of master's degree in yoga therapy is creating an advanced training in finding ways to utilize this extraordinary tradition and technology to really interface with aspects of the world - different demographics that don't always have access or awareness to these practices and traditions. So, I think itÕs really wide open in the various ways you can utilize this education and this training. [00:35:45.00] David: Yeah, just the fact that you get a BA is just so much cooler than just a certificate or anything like that and plus you have a long journey of learning with a lot of people in a contemplative community in Boulder, Colorado with - with like amazing teachers. With people who have a steeped history of the practice and itÕs so wonderful to like hear your passion and just like everything you're about and gonna be signing up for that class next semester. But usually they are like packed and you can't get in - so itÕs hard. [00:36:16.03] Nataraja: We'll make room for you. [00:36:18.00] David: Yeah. Awesome. So, thanks for speaking with me today. I really appreciate it and I look forward to new things in the future. [00:36:24.23] Nataraja: Thank you, David. [00:36:25.20] Ben: Thanks, so much David. [00:36:27.19] David: So, that was Nataraja Kallio and Ben Williams on the podcast. They both teach in the yoga studies program and I'd like to thank them again. [00:36:35.16] Ben: Thanks. [00:36:36.05] Nataraja: Thanks David. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]