Deborah Bowman ÒGestalt: Awareness Practice, Healing in the Here and Now" **** [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host, David Devine. And itÕs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] Hello, today I'd like to welcome Deborah Bowman to the podcast. Deborah is a core faculty member of the graduate school of counseling and psychology. Teaching in the clinical mental health counseling and mindfulness based transpersonal counseling programs. It is such a pleasure to have you with us today. [00:01:01.18] DEBORAH: Thank you, David. [00:01:02.20] DAVID: Yeah, would you like to introduce yourself a bit further? [00:01:05.07] DEBORAH: Sure, I'd be happy to. Well, I've been at Naropa 28 years. And, I've been working as a psychologist. This is my 30th year. So, uh - I gave a Ted Talk several years ago. You can look me up on YouTube and its really fun. And, I gave that talk on Falling into Grace about a climbing accident I had in 1979. [00:01:30.11] DAVID: Oh wow. [00:01:30.11] DEBORAH: And, how I -- barely lived but saved my life through awareness you might say. [00:01:36.19] DAVID: Interesting. [00:01:36.19] DEBORAH: So, let's see, I've also written a few books. Uh one of The Female Buddha, Discovering the Heart of Liberation and Love and itÕs a combination of photographs and inspirational quotes and commentary. I wrote a book on The Luminous Buddha - same kind of book. And then, I also did one uh when your spouse comes out. A straight guide - the straight mates recovery manual. It's a way to be compassionate towards your gay partner, yourself, and your family. So -- [00:02:13.08] DAVID: Interesting. Yeah, and you're also the founder of the psychology program and wilderness program? [00:02:19.06] DEBORAH: Well, I'm the founder of the Transpersonal Counseling Psychology program. I initiated the art therapy program and I developed the wilderness therapy program. [00:02:30.19] DAVID: Wow, you're just doing everything aren't you? [00:02:32.15] DEBORAH: Oh, and I also help initiate the counseling center that I think you're going to be talking to Joy Redstone about. [00:02:40.13] DAVID: Yeah, tomorrow actually. Well, wonderful. What are we going to be speaking about today? [00:02:44.17] DEBORAH: Ok. Today, I'm going to talk about Gestalt Awareness Practice. Healing in the Here and Now. So, I'd like to begin by saying I'm going to discuss about it and then offer a little sort of experiential opportunity - a little guided Gestalt practice so if you're listening in I invite you to find a space in your car or at home where you're alone. Where you can speak out loud. Without anybody thinking you're crazy. And, so while you're getting yourself settled I'll start the lecture portion of this. [00:03:25.23] Gestalt therapy -- is a methodology that can be used by counselor uh psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists. You can use it for therapy or you can use it for growth. So, that's why I like to call it Gestalt Awareness Practice. Because itÕs a way of working in the here and now for healing our growth. So, I'm going to share a little background first about the influences on the person that developed Gestalt. Now Gestalt the word is a German word that is not quite translatable. It means the whole. Or something ever greater than the whole. ItÕs something that the idea which is that we're whole with everything and that our goal is to be whole within our self not divided - not split. [00:04:19.19] So, the major influences on the person that developed this - Fritz Perls were first Freud. He was in that period of history with Freud in the early 1920s. And he was analyzed by Karen Horney and he drew a lot from Freud but then split from him because he felt like people we're talking about things and he wanted to experience the person in the moment and have them notice how they interrupt themselves in the moment. And so, if you catch it then - there's the best opportunity to change. [00:05:02.10] So, say somebody is talking about their parents and they're upset, and they start biting their lip or making a fist. He wants them to draw attention to that and notice what's the feeling there in the moment as you're sharing this? [00:05:18.12] So, he was very interested in of course that psycho dynamic approach and psycho dynamic when you think of the word itÕs the psyche - our inner world is a dynamic process of all these parts coming forwards, stepping back, disagreeing with one another. And, so he drew from Freud some of the what we're - Freud called the fences. He called them contact disturbances. Like, I might interject a message from one of my parents. My mom, my dad, or grandparent or sister and brother and it might you know I am stupid. I mean so if interject that that voice is now in my head. [00:05:59.13] So, when I do things that little voice pops up - oh that was stupid. So, he said you know let's catch that in the moment like you say something that's kind of smart and then you - you know say oh well I didn't really mean that. So, he said look you're contradicting yourself. So, - so to have a dialogue - an internal dialogue between these interjected parts which are now your voice. They are no longer mom or dad's. So, the idea is to -- you know catch those in the moment and then say hey - is that my voice or is it somebody else's and do I want that? Is that the language how I want to speak to myself? [00:06:42.16] So, we might interject it. We might project it onto somebody else - so you know - I might imagine you're like my dad because you're a man. So, I might be afraid of you or I might worship you, but you know - who you are would be no reason for me to do those things actually. Ok. Or the other thing I might do is turn it back on myself. So, if I say that I'm stupid to myself and I keep saying it and itÕs like beating myself up and we call a retroflection. So, think of these things. Interjection you smile - the projection you put on someone else and the retroflection you take that message and then you repeat it and repeat till itÕs like you're beating yourself up. [00:07:28.20] So, he was very interested in these -- internal dialogues and sort of interrupting them and catching them and that's the best opportunity for change. He was also highly influenced by the existentialist in that period of time. And, particularly Martin Buber who was a Jewish existentialist who looked at something called the I though relationship. And, he named it that because the other he named as sacred. And not an object. To be worked with because he countered that with what's called the I-It relationship. So, the I-It is when you're something that I get something from. Like I go to get groceries and I am going through the line - and I want that person to hurry because their only job is to help me. Well, that's not treating that person as a person. Right? They are an object. So, itÕs a way we could treat our spouses, our children, to give us the goods we want. Then they are an it. [00:08:34.02] But, if we treat them as a though - itÕs a sacred relationship and the other person is mystery. And we want to make contact with that and it's you know an enlivening experience and when we make contact then we actually change. We're not the same. When we make good contacts. So, that's one of the things we got from Buber and from existentialism we also got a very strong flavor that got incorporated in Gestalt of self-responsibility. So, when I talked earlier about interjecting the father then we don't go around blaming dad you know because of dad I am this way. No, I've taken on his voice. And, now I'm an adult and I'm doing it to myself. Now, when we work with a child - they are still working with that interject in a way that's still very alive. So, you know we're not asking the child to take responsibility for that, but we are asking the adult to take responsibility for that. [00:09:38.08] And itÕs not to be harsh but itÕs the only way we can change - is if we're responsible for our own internal dialogue. So, at the other time in history - in those early 1900s - Reich. Wilhelm Reich was very influential. He was also a student of Freud but also broke away from Freud because he said the body - look what's happening in the body. And so, Perls was also analyzed by Reich and did a lot of the Reichian body sort of exercises to learn how is my body holding these defenses. Holding these retroflections? And think of the retroflection when we tighten our shoulders. When we're angry but we hold it in. And then over years we've got these tight shoulders and of course they hurt. [00:10:29.19] But that's like a retroflection. [00:10:34.00] So, itÕs sort of like itÕs how the body has incorporated these patterns of ways to kind of protect ourselves or to hold our self. And he called that body armoring and so Perls worked a lot in the Gestalt model with that body armory. [00:10:52.10] Ok, so the other thing that was going on in the 1920s was Gestalt psychology which is different than Gestalt therapy or Gestalt awareness practice. Gestalt psychology was sort of a perceptual theoretical psychology where we looked at perception and you know that face where itÕs a face or a face and you look at it - itÕs sort of a psychological test - like what do you see. [00:11:20.01] DAVID: ItÕs like that candlestick that's two people facing each other - is that what you're talking about? [00:11:23.19] DEBORAH: There you go. [00:11:23.19] DAVID: ItÕs like how you perceive the photo because there is multiple photos in it. [00:11:26.12] DEBORAH: Exactly. So, Perls was very interested in this so he incorporated you know how we perceive things - may not be how other people perceive things. So, there is a variability there. So, he was very interested in that and so perceptions - Gestalts psychology also took that name of Gestalt because it reflected the whole. ItÕs not this perception - itÕs not that perception - there is actually something else there. [00:11:54.20] [00:11:55.21] So, the 5th area of influence on Gestalt and the one that has had probably the most impact on Gestalt in the later years was Zen Buddhism. So Perls practice sitting on the cushion and probably Gestalt awareness came from this - strong emphasis on the here and now. [00:12:21.22] Being present. So, he incorporated the body methodology to bring somebody back in the present by reminding them to breath. Reminding them to have body awareness. To shuttle your intention. Your attention from inside to notice what is going on here. Shuttle it - what's going on out there. So, that's sort of like a relational awareness practice where you're not just hanging out of my body - this is what I feel. This is what I think. But I am noticing over there your facial expressions, your body language, your voice tone, and I'm trying to you know notice what that might mean whether you're listening to me or not listening to me. Those kinds of things. [00:13:07.16] Ok, so this sort of attention to my new detail as well - so you're not missing things. So, Perls took a few other things from Zen. You might say he used the Zen stick. So there - you know if you are not familiar with Zen that sometimes the master would take a well-shaped wooden stick and if you were falling asleep on the cushion he might give you a good tap you know on the shoulder. [00:13:36.02] So, that was sort of Perls style. Like it was wake up! Wake up! So, that was -- [00:13:43.08] DAVID: Here comes awareness. [00:13:44.03] DEBORAH: Exactly. So, he would sort of like oh look you're not being intention now. Look, you're not integrated. Look you're biting your lip. Look, you're saying you're sad and you're smiling. Look you're saying you're not angry and you're making a fist and you're sort of beating your hand into your other hand. [00:14:04.08] So, he was sort of like notice - notice what is going on. So, we have those five influences, but then Gestalt is often put on the humanistic psychology spectrum. And the humanistic psychology think about Carl Rogers and you think that itÕs a relationship between you and me. ItÕs not - we tried to sort of shrink that hierarchy - that I am not above you. I am not a clinician trying to figure out what's wrong with you and that I am going to fix you. I am human and I'm in relationship. Well that was part of the methodology, but a man named Claudia Naranjo who was a student of Perls looked at its transpersonal dimensions and what he saw - was that the practice of Gestalt awareness was like an interpersonal meditation. [00:14:55.06] So, what's so cool about that its instead of in your own body - like when we sit on the cushion we try to come back to the present. We try to notice our breath. We try to notice oh my mind has been wondering thinking about this and so now I am coming back and I am going to work at not judging that and just coming back -- [00:15:17.16] DAVID: How long was I gone for? [00:15:19.03] DEBORAH: Well, yes sometimes itÕs a long time, right? Its ok. But we're not judging that. And, so what Neurgho devised - he devised a methodology that sort of built on Perls practice of the awareness continuum. And that's where you're sitting with another person and itÕs like the facilitator - the Gestalt therapist, the Gestalt awareness practitioner is reminding you to come back to the here and now. [00:15:47.17] Ok, so they might say things like breath. Or they might say - I notice you're telling me this story - about your dad. What are you aware of in your body? Tell me what you're aware of now. So, to keep - because there is nothing wrong with relaying what has happened to you as a child or as an adult or a trauma. ItÕs not to judge that. But itÕs to allow somebody to be aware of what's going in even as they are speaking. What they are feeling. You know what emotions are arising. So, the facilitator acts like the neutral mind. The neutral part of the mind that just say hey what's going on now? Tell me what's going on now? And you might often use that word now a lot. Tell me now - what you're aware of. [00:16:45.23] Also, the facilitator is looking at more of the how of what's going on. Instead of the sort of storyline. So, they're noticing how the body is moving. How the voice cracks when somebody says something. How they look away when they talk about something that was painful or shameful. So, when somebody does that the facilitator might say I noticed you just looked away when you said something about your father. Would you be willing to look away and tell me what you're aware of? [00:17:30.13] DAVID: Yeah. [00:17:30.23] DEBORAH: And its - it can be very profound what can come up. Because itÕs an opportunity to pause and notice oh I didn't want you to see my face. Or, oh, I didn't want you to -- look into my eyes at that moment. So, that's where we get to sort of the meaty part that the feelings that are associated with an experience. Ok, so we're also looking for body incongruences. I brought up before that thing where somebody - and this I've often experienced as working as a psychologist doing Gestalt awareness practice. Somebody tells me something sad like - you know they lost their pet - their family pet. And, they smile. And you know - that they're not feeling happy about that. But they're either trying to please me because they don't want to burden of their sadness or they're trying to neutralize it because touching, feelings you know - they might have been shamed for doing that as a kid. So, in the therapy office - you're trying to you know help them touch those feelings because you want to create a safe space, so you might say I notice when you told me about how you lost your dog when you were a child and that you smiled. [00:18:54.22] And, what I might do even - is say - would you be willing to tell me again - without smiling. So, what we're asking for is authenticity and congruency in that moment. Ok, so it may seem confrontive, but it is confronting in congruency and we try to do it with warmth and compassion. But itÕs still you know interrupting their interruptions. Because they were interrupting their sadness by the smile. And then I'm trying to interrupt that process. So, they can actually go deeper. And experience that maybe wasn't safe to experience. Maybe you know it wasn't safe to talk about sadness because so many sad things happened in their family that they all learned to just be cool. [00:19:51.06] So, you notice there is many things we can do in terms of - working with the body and the mind in this process. [00:20:02.09] DAVID: Yeah there is so much you can do - it you got me thinking so many different things right now. ItÕs pretty amazing. And what it sounds like is you invite the now-ness by introducing how you are aware in the moment. So, when someone is telling you a story that is kind of sad and they are - they are smiling, or they are looking away. They are kind of not wanting to present you with that. And they're hiding it from you, but you know you're trained and skilled enough to want to go there. To know that there is a trauma there. There is a something to be looked at. So, itÕs very interesting to kind of like see that. [00:20:38.10] DEBORAH: Absolutely. Absolutely. And itÕs not like people are intentionally hiding. These are sort of reflexes that we do that are habitual old patterns and habitual old patterns. And, habitual patterns aren't easy to change. That's why catching it in the moment is so much more powerful than listening on and on to someone's story and you know not getting to the - the heart of the problem. [00:21:03.16] DAVID: And that might the first time they're ever presented with like hold on - let's - let's back track. Let's - let's actually look at this. Let's unpack this. What's going on? Why are you flexing your hands? And why are you looking away? So, that's probably like the first time they are invited to actually look at what they are doing or not noticing what they are doing. To uncover something that they didn't know was there essentially. [00:21:24.19] DEBORAH: Absolutely. And, its - you know people stop themselves from crying but if you watch the body close enough you can see all those muscles tense in someone's face. And, you might just say I notice all this tension in your eyes. Or I notice you're blinking a lot. Would you be in mind to notice what you're feeling in your eyes in this moment. Yeah. [00:21:47.13] DAVID: Yeah, itÕs also interesting to think that how our emotional well being can show up in a physical sense. How holding emotion and not expressing it and not letting it out - it physically shows up as pain. [00:22:04.08] DEBORAH: Absolutely. Martha Graham you know the famous mother of modern dance - had this saying - you know the body doesn't lie. And, you know - it doesn't. The truth is all there. [00:22:19.04] DAVID: Yeah, if it gets sick it's going to let you know. [00:22:20.12] DEBORAH: Uh huh. [00:22:21.17] DAVID: Yeah, so I'd love to move onto your practice. [00:22:24.23] DEBORAH: Oh absolutely. [00:22:25.07] DAVID: What would you like to share with us? [00:22:26.12] DEBORAH: Well, its uh - itÕs a short experiment. And, itÕs with both breath and with sound. And so, if there is any time you feel uncomfortable - you want to stop just listen. You can say oh I might do this later or -- uh but itÕs very simple. So, we'll take what about 5 minutes or so is that we have here? About 7 minutes. [00:22:50.16] DAVID: Yeah, we can do 5 minutes. [00:22:52.06] DEBORAH: Ok. So first, I am just going to invite you to breath. Ok so -- notice your breathing. And then, as you're breathing - I'm going to invite you now - to just notice what else you're aware of. It could be the sound of my voice. It could traffic. It could be - the drone of your heater or hair conditioner. It could be a sensation in your body. It could be a thought. Just notice. Ok. So, let that go. And breath again. This time I am going to invite you to notice your breath. A thought might come up. Just notice it at the same time. Is your breath shallow? Is it deep? Is it fast? Is it slow? Just notice. Ok. And let that go. And keep breathing. And rest briefly. And now, notice what's going on in your body. Are there any tensions? Any tightness? And breathe. Let that go. Ok. Now, I'm going to invite you - those of you out there listening to the podcast as you exhale - I'm going invite you to make a noise as you exhale. Whatever noise arises. It could be a sigh. It could be a breath. It could be a growl. That as you exhale - make that noise. [00:24:46.15] Ok, now I am going to invite you to repeat that noise one more time. Just repeat it. Just like you made it the first time. Ok. Good. Now, I'm going to ask you when you breath out the next time I invite you to exaggerate that noise. And you can exaggerate it two ways. And you can choose. You can choose to make that noise louder. Or you can exaggerate by exaggerate it by making it softer. Ok? So here we go. 1, 2, 3 breath out. Make a noise. Good. Ok. So, one more time - I'm going to invite you to exaggerate it again. Either louder...or softer. [00:25:43.05] Good. Ok. So, now - I'm going to ask you a few questions for you to just notice in your mind - what did you notice about the sound? Was it rough? Smooth. Shaky? Vibrant? Muted? Dull? Choked off? Exuberant? Hesitant? Pleading? Exuberant? Just notice - no judgement. Ok, now breath and let that go. [00:26:21.11] Ok, we're going to notice one more thing. About - that noise. Did you feel an emotion? And I'll just list a few that might have come up. Shy. Excited. Embarrassed. Angry. Exhilarated. Nervous. Silly. Exposed. Scared. Proud. Ok. Just notice it. It might not have been one I listed. [00:26:55.22] And breath. Ok. Two more questions. Did you judge yourself? Positively? Negatively? Indifferent? Did you judge me what I said or how I said it? Ok. Let that go and breathe. So, I want you to notice on more thing. Just notice what you learned about yourself. Just notice one thing you learned. Ok. Thank you. [00:27:40.09] DAVID: Thank you. [00:27:41.20] DEBORAH: Oh, you are welcome. [00:27:43.11] DAVID: I feel like I can talk to you forever about this. ItÕs extremely interesting. [00:27:48.17] DEBORAH: Oh, thank you. ItÕs fun. [00:27:51.04] DAVID: Yeah its - [00:27:52.09] DEBORAH: Its juicy. [00:27:53.16] DAVID: ItÕs really interesting to have - the model on where you're becoming so aware of everything you do that you're aware of your awareness and it - it seem to break patterns and you're noticing the internal dialogue and you start asking the internal dialogue questions. And the internal dialogue is asking the external dialogue questions and - its just - itÕs just really interesting of the feedback you get from yourself when someone invites you to look into that. [00:28:22.09] DEBORAH: Yeah, its true. You might discover or I had a feeling I didn't know. Or, oh you know I am hesitant. Or, oh - you know I do have some life in me. [00:28:33.06] DAVID: Or oh that is a pattern that other people are noticing that I've never noticed. [00:28:37.14] DEBORAH: Yeah. ItÕs a little scary. And its - you know a vulnerable place also because when we see things about ourselves that we haven't seen before it shakes up the homeostasis. It shakes up our idea of who we are. And that's scary. Because we get this fixed idea - this is who I am and I am uncomfortable and oh these things are getting in my way. This is making contact hard with somebody. This is making it hard for me to go after the things I really love in my life. Oh, but that doesn't mean itÕs easy. [00:29:15.03] DAVID: Yeah, I mean emot - emotions - there is these internally built things that we feel, and we call them emotions and its really interesting to dissect them a bit further to realize who we ultimately are. And how we can utilize emotion for self-healing for self-exploration. Also, use emotion to develop as like a character and as we grow up and become adults and like have families or kids or just relate to our families - it is through skillful emotion use that we can become the people that ultimately, we're kind of like designed for you know. [00:29:51.23] DEBORAH: Yeah, I think so because emotions are natural and there is nothing wrong with them. In fact, they are vibrancy in our color. And they are met - we are not meant to hang on to them. They are meant to flow through us. So, sometimes when we come up with oh man I've been holding onto this emotion for a long time. Or these are the set of emotions I've carried around or these are the ones I think are me. But they're all us. We just - you use the word skillful and that's so important because they are there. We can't erase them. We don't need to judge them good or bad. We just need to kind of work with them gently and skillfully. [00:30:34.14] DAVID: Yeah. So good. Thank you so much. [00:30:37.23] DEBORAH: Oh, you're more than welcomed. Thank you. [00:30:40.12] DAVID: So, that was Deborah Bowman and our podcast. She is a core faculty member of the graduate school of counseling and psychology teaching in the clinical mental health counseling and mindfulness space personal counseling programs - such a mouthful right there. [00:30:56.01] DEBORAH: Yes. [00:30:57.03] DAVID: Really appreciate you. Thanks for speaking with us today. [00:30:59.18] DEBORAH: Oh, I really appreciated the opportunity. Thank you so much. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]