CA Conrad
"Poetry, Ritual, & Creativity"


[MUSIC]

Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in 
Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host David Devine. And it's a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the 
best of Eastern and Western educational traditions -- Naropa is the birthplace of the modern 
mindfulness movement.

[MUSIC]

[00:00:44.21] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Hello, today I'd like to welcome a very special guest to the podcast and the Naropa community. 
CA Conrad. Conrad is a writer, a poet, an author and a teacher. And they are here at Naropa 
teaching in the Jack Kerouac School for the Summer Writing Program. So welcome to the 
podcast.

[00:01:03.04]
CA CONRAD: 
Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:04.22] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah, no problem.

So, I heard that you wanted to start with a poem? And I love that idea so --

[00:01:12.02]
CA CONRAD: 
I'm going to read from this new collection.

And maybe I could talk a little bit about where the poems come from.

[00:01:18.23] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah, please.

[00:01:20.15]
CA CONRAD: 
So, the first poem is called, "Camisado". "Camisado" is a military term that means killing your 
enemies in their sleep and I was introduced to this word in junior high school history when the 
teacher was talking about the -- most famous American camisado which is when George 
Washington crossed the Delaware with his soldiers to kill British soldiers in their sleep. The 
reason I remember this is because he used the word brave. He said it was a very brave decision 
and I thought that was an odd choice as a young child. Even I was like - I don't think that's brave 
to kill these young British soldiers while they are dreaming of you know the Cliffs of Dover and 
eating fish and chips or whatever they're dreaming. I mean itŐs terrible - strategic, but not brave.

"Camisado"
after breaking in                                                                              
the wolf                                                                              
calmed                                                                              
the hens                                                                              
so he could                                                                              
take his time with them                                                                              
twists them open until the right                                                                              
amount of memory fits into the song                                                                     
another high price for belonging                                             
poetry is the opposite of escape                                             
but makes this world endurable                                             
how the smallest puddle                                             
reflects the entire sky                                             
a return to every dream                                             
our minds talked us out of                                             
trusting our math of the star                                             
your hand around my shoulder                                             
poet astronaut you know I love you                                             
I have no sense of failure when I am with you                                             
everything matters because everything                 
hurts someone somewhere as it is mattering                  
we became all we carried into the mast                   
migratory patterns given to the love again                    
a way to end this secrecy of suffering                     
cut a door in the wolf so we                      
can retrieve our dead for                       
a world that matters        

[00:03:12.23]
CA CONRAD: 
So, here's the second poem.

[00:03:14.18] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Ok, what's this one called?

[00:03:15.21]
CA CONRAD: 
"On All Fours I Am a Seat for the Wind"

Most of my family's international travel is being sent to the war
If we judge love we can kill of anything
Dragged by our hair across the days until they make their way inside our dreams where we get to 
evict them
I want to thank the one who invented knocking on the door
but no one remembers their name to tattoo across my knuckles
I asked an archaeologist about first time she stuck a shovel in the ground
her answer had some restorative powers as the grave diggers
when we die
we can no longer wipe the muck off
Just lie there becoming shit of the world
Eat a chip of your own dried blood
Join me in the cannibal sunshine fully persuaded by the world through song
Each morning a blue jay screams at the edge of the clear cut forest
I scream with her at the bleeding stumps
Scream inside something borrowed like ocean, like skin
I want to see before I die a mink wearing a human scarf
Skin from a handsome harry leg
Meow

[00:04:34.12]
CA CONRAD: 
So, actually the part about the blue jay screaming -- that's real. Those poems are from a very 
large ritual that I am doing across the United States with extinct animals. So, I am in my 50s. 
And in my lifetime, the planet has seen a 60% loss of all the wildlife. 60 percent loss.

And, we've recently found out that we've lost 50% in my lifetime of the coral reefs. Europe has 
lost -- this is from a recent article in "The Guardian" from London -- Europe lost 75% of its 
flying insects.

And itŐs an avalanche of species that are going along with it now. So, what I was trying to do is 
think about eco-poetics as not just a focus on degraded soil, air and water, but vibrational 
absence. When a species leaves the planet, they take everything with them. Their heart beat, their 
flutter, their foot falls, their hooves. 

[00:05:31.06] 
DAVID DEVINE:
The metaphysical properties of the insects and not just like the material properties.

[00:05:36.04]
CA CONRAD: 
Right.

[00:05:36.19] 
DAVID DEVINE:
I like that.

[00:05:37.21]
CA CONRAD: 
But, anyway I've been saturating my body with their sounds wherever I go and there are a bunch 
of other ingredients to this ritual. I am including writing index cards with messages for strangers 
and a little drawing of the creature and leave them in shopping malls and bibles in hotel rooms 
all over the place. And people start writing back.

[00:05:58.23] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Oh nice.

[00:05:58.23]
CA CONRAD: 
And then I write back and say you know I am the dusky sea sparrow, and these are the insects I 
used to eat and then I -- here is a SoundCloud recording that this nice ornithologist made. And 
then eventually I say oh in 1988 my entire family, my friends, my neighbors we were all 
destroyed and wiped off the face of the planet. We don't exist anymore.  Thanks a lot.

Then it becomes antagonistic. But we really are living in - I don't want to get into all of that. I am 
trying to focus now on the ritual and this is the ritual that I am working on right now. 

[00:06:30.08] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Would you say the ritual is you going on tour and kind of writing these notecards for people and 
having them reach out to you in such a ways that you are responding to them as the insect itself 
or does the ritual go a little bit deeper than that?

[00:06:44.18]
CA CONRAD: 
Well, I write - I have index cards. And I write on the index cards a message with a drawing and 
an email and I leave them in shopping centers, laundry mats - randomly -- subways and people 
start writing back. Does that make sense?

[00:07:00.12] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah. Totally.

[00:07:02.02]
CA CONRAD: 
And then there is an activist element where I am trying to get legislators to put money aside for 
land bridges that we have only just a couple -- and itŐs a literal graveyard across this country. 
Millions of animals every single day are trying to cross these highways and they cannot. And 
we've cut off migratory patterns of all kinds. The thing that we need to think about is what will 
happen if Trump gets that law made? What about all those creatures that have to go back and 
forth? The birds can do it, of course, but -- yeah, so anyway, I've been here all week at Naropa 
teaching rituals. Not this one, but we were building our own. 

[00:07:41.09] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Would you say a lot of your poetry revolves around ritual? Revolves around a deep intention and 
itŐs not necessarily just like your mind is thinking of something -- you write it down. You're 
thinking like you're experiencing a lot of things from the world and then you integrate ritual and 
then write or -- ?

[00:07:55.10]
CA CONRAD: 
No, I started doing these rituals because I grew up in a factory town. All my family are factory 
workers. And, I didn't want anything to do with the factory. Its detrimental to the human 
experience in every possible way imaginable. It just turns people into drug addicts and 
alcoholics. At least that's my experience. And it just runs their bodies, their spirits -- everything. 
They become broken. But I thought that had escaped the factory back in the 80s when I ran away 
to be a writer. To be poet, not a writer. I got to make that clear. And, what I found out in 2005 -- 
decades later that that factory was in me. And it was visible on my desk and it was a crisis and I 
stopped writing. And eventually, I woke up you know a better part of a month went by with me 
deliberately not writing. And I started making a list of problems with the factory and one of the -
- this is very Naropa 
I would think. One of the lines was the inability to be present. And, I feel like we're living in this 
time period where everybody is talking about being present and I feel like a lot of people are 
talking about it in a way almost like a weapon. You know like oh I am present. You know but 
you are not. 

What people don't understand is that some people don't have the ability and especially if you're 
the majority of your waking hours are spent being an extension of the machine in a factory you're 
either going to be depressed about the past or anxious about the future. You're not going to want 
to be present and then when you leave work you don't know how to shut it off after years. 

[00:09:34.09]
So, its -- we're living in a culture designed to prevent us from being present. So that's where 
these rituals come from. I immediately started making rituals to create a place of extreme 
present. That's the purpose of what I do. And, when I am doing these rituals -- translate into all 
art forms. I teach regularly in Amsterdam at the Sandberg Art Institute every October. I have the 
incoming body of students -- the grad students and I sit down with them as a group and we create 
rituals so that they can see later in life -- when they have many more routines after school. When 
they are busy with families and careers and the art work starts to slip away. That they can find 
space wherever they are at no matter what they are doing. 

[00:10:24.02] 
DAVID DEVINE:
I really like that idea about creating rituals and creating something that will bring you into the 
present moment for something that like is sustainable to your soul and your heart and who you 
are and who you are becoming. I really enjoy that. 

So, you're talking about being present and being aware while writing -- how do bring presentness 
in writing? Like, is there anything that you do personally or -- ??

[00:10:50.04]
CA CONRAD: 
Look, the only thing that matters is the writing. So, the -- and I mean I am talking about the act 
of writing. I don't mean the finished product. So --

[00:10:59.03] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Like the physical act of writing?

[00:11:01.03]
CA CONRAD: 
Like I was saying my rituals create a space of extreme present. Meaning when I am doing them I 
can't think about anything except what I am doing or where I am at. ItŐs not this type of old kind 
of writing that I used to do that everybody does where you become inspired and then you write.

And, sometimes you get nostalgic - I don't want any of that. I feel like itŐs not something I am 
interested in my writing. I have -- no time for that. Nostalgia is pointless frankly. I mean itŐs 
useful for people who are having a very hard time I suppose, but I think to live in nostalgia, 
which I think many people do -- just creates a terrible space politically, socially, creatively -- 
because nostalgia isn't present. 

[00:11:53.03] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah.

[00:11:53.16]
CA CONRAD: 
So, anyway I have hundreds of these rituals that I have been doing. My books are all the rituals 
and then the resulting poems. So, this new book is called, "While Standing in Line for Death." 
The opening ritual - I believe that these rituals could do more than just produce poems.

I had a boyfriend who was brutally tortured, raped, covered in gasoline and set on fire in 
Tennessee. The documentary about my life called, "The Book of Conrad," -- the filmmakers 
went back down to Tennessee with me to try to figure this murder out. The police covered it up. 
The police to this day are covering up -- of course, itŐs just impossible to have your ankles and 
wrists tied together behind you hog tied and gagged with your pants and underwear down to your 
ankles covered in gasoline and burned alive and there is no empty gasoline containers on site. 
And this is in a remote cave in Tennessee. ItŐs not near a gas station. You know so itŐs just 
ridiculous. A 4 year old literally could tell you this is a homicide. 

[00:12:52.06]
But that's a whole other part of the story. The ritual isn't about that. The ritual is about dealing 
with the suffering that I was going through. Especially dealing with the police who were brutal. 
They brutalized me physically eventually and emotionally. Continuously. I was very athletic 
before his murder and then I gained a lot of weight. ItŐs funny itŐs like I've became vegetarian 
instead of vegan and I would eat like terrible food, but I did a ritual to overcome the depression 
and it worked. 

And it made me -- I was macrobiotic actually right up to the point with his murder. Because he 
and I we were in Act Up. And, Queer Nation in the 80s and 90s and we had scores of friends die. 
And, we were kind of burnt out at this point. And we were taking it easy and starting to really 
enjoy our lives again and then he's murdered brutally. 

[00:13:46.19]
When I actually believed that I was getting my life together - it actually was the worst part was 
about to come and I didn't know it. But the poetry is what dragged me back to the light. 

[00:13:59.09] 
DAVID DEVINE:
I am so sorry to hear about all of that.

[00:14:02.01]
CA CONRAD: 
It happens every day in America. And we're faced right now with hundreds of anti-LGBTQ laws 
for this November. I am not an optimist, but I think November is going to be fantastic. We have 
a record number of -- I think itŐs like 300 lesbian, transgender people running for Congress. 
Many, many women. People of color. We're going to get a hold of the steering wheel I think this 
year.

[00:14:28.17] 
DAVID DEVINE:
I am on board with that. I am like ready for this --

[00:14:30.17]
CA CONRAD: 
I am not an optimist, but I think it is going to happen. 

[00:14:33.07] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah, you are not the only one on the podcast that has said the shift is happening. And I totally 
agree with you and we are part of that. 

[00:14:41.09]
CA CONRAD: 
But it also has political action rituals. Dealing with these anti - because you know I would always 
be the oldest person at these protests. And there'd be these young 18, 19, 20 year old protesters 
who were queer. Very brave young people but broken. Suicidal. The suicide rate and the 
violence against gay and lesbians in this country has spiked dramatically in the past year. 70% of 
us like are queer people of color. But anyway, I have a ritual in the book where I was blowing 
bubbles in Ashville, North Carolina -- the HB2 law -- the bathroom law -- which was a very 
violent law in many ways. And itŐs nothing compared to the ones that are coming up in 
November by the way. The one in Massachusetts is going to -- if the referendum goes through -- 
it could allow hotel owners and restaurant owners to once again just evict gay and lesbian people 
legally.

[00:15:31.00] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Really?

[00:15:31.00]
CA CONRAD: 
Oh, there are already these laws now in the past couple years that are existing -- everywhere. 
And, there are laws in Georgia and Kansas -- to protect Christian adoption agencies so they don't 
have to have gay people adopt children -- things like this.

[00:15:49.20] 
DAVID DEVINE:
So, would you say your poetry is a form of healing -- about healing and or its the microphone - 
itŐs a message. Its - it sounds like you use it in so many different ways, not just to see the light, 
but also to show others the light as well. 

[00:16:04.15]
CA CONRAD: 
Sure. My main concern is that everybody understand that they are creative.

[00:16:11.10] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah, I love that. 

[00:16:12.09]
CA CONRAD: 
Well, we need creativity. There is absolutely no way that we're going to figure our way out of 
these problems that are facing us without creative solutions. Creative people are the survivors.

[00:16:24.01] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yes! Why do you think creativity does that and or can hold space to do such things like that?

[00:16:29.16]
CA CONRAD: 
Well, creativity is this vital organ that we have and that's the -- is necessary to being able to 
figure out the new solutions. I mean when Einstein said that imagination is more important than 
knowledge -- what he was telling us was that its far more useful for us to be creating new ideas 
rather than living in the old paradigms. The old paradigms are clearly not working. 

[00:16:53.16] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Cleary, yes.

[00:16:54.02]
CA CONRAD: 
So, we need -- and there are a lot of people. A lot of creative -- and when I say creative people I 
mean all kinds of creative people. Scientists are creative. There are a lot of scientists right now 
who are using their creative abilities to come up with solutions. There is a toilet being designed 
by grad students in Denver -- that is going to turn human solid waste into bio char for the first 
time. Which is unheard of especially for the United States because we have the most toxic diet 
the planet has ever seen.

We have chemical companies that invent chemicals and dyes just to make money in the food 
industry. There is no need for any of it, but -- when people eat the standard American diet their 
solid waste is literally a toxic waste site now. So, these toilets -- these creative young people are 
inventing - I want to say creative scientists is going to just change everything because itŐs going 
to turn the solid waste into these pellets that will be able to be used for fertilizer and fuel. 

That's what I am talking about. We've got some brilliant people everywhere!

[00:18:04.03]
CA CONRAD: 
Yeah, there is a lot of different creative things coming -- itŐs kind of weird because the situations 
that we're in the ocean being thrown - stuff just being thrown away in the ocean just randomly it 
all kind of congregates in this one spot, but people are figuring out ways to clean it up with the 
imaginations -- like these ideas. They have this creativity. ItŐs kind of weird to think that some of 
the ideas that come up wouldn't exist if the problems didn't exist themselves. So, itŐs like our 
creativity is also being transformed by the problems that arise within the situations that we're 
living in. So, itŐs like our creativity is almost being challenged in such a way where I would love 
to see our creativity used in more of a -- that's what I want to do way and not that's what I have to 
go clean up sort of way.

[00:18:51.16]
CA CONRAD: 
I agree. And, creativity is also for activism. When I went to Occupy Wall Street almost 
everybody I met was an art student or creative writing student. It takes creative minds to figure 
out how to get around these barriers the police will put up. I've watched them do it over and over 
again. There would be a barrier - they'd huddle together and come up with a solution. It was a 
great school. It was a tremendous school. And I am talking about creativity for surviving. I am 
talking about the poet, Robert Desnos in Auschwitz and Treblinka as a prisoner writing poems. 
And, the Nazi's -- you know they come, and they round him and itŐs the prisoners are up, and 
they are going to take them to the gas chamber and kill them all, but because he is the poet - 
because he is the creative mind in the group -- he gets off the truck first and he's a palm reader. 
He reads palms -- so he is a early you know 20th century surrealist poet -- they were into the 
occult you know. So, he starts reading all the other prisoners palms like you have a very long life 
line and he is doing it in German. Exuberantly. And, he's dying of typhoid. And he hasn't eaten a 
solid meal in months. And he is drudging the sincerity and this exuberance, and the guards are so 
angry and confused and he keeps doing it -- he won't stop and then they become despondent 
because he keeps focusing on the life line. You madam are going to live a very long life and have 
grandchildren you know retire -- and so they load them all back on the trucks and send them 
back. And a few weeks later the Allied Forces liberate the camp. And, we've been hearing for 
over half a century these stories from the survivors about a poet who figured out how to save all 
of these lives without a single bullet. That's what I am talking about creativity. 

That's the main reason I am talking about creativities necessity. And so, when I am here at 
Naropa teaching my main goal -- yeah, I mean I love looking at the student's poems. ItŐs not that 
I don't want to look at their work -- but my only care is that at the end of my time teaching with 
them -- that they understand that when life takes over -- and you know they get all these 
responsibilities, jobs, children, whatever happens to them -- that they can always find a way to 
write. Because 98% of everybody stops doing their art. 

Almost everybody. Hands down. [00:21:21.08] I know for a fact when I was a teenager in 
Philadelphia I had a few hundred peers of artists of all kinds. By the time we were in our late 20s 
about half of everybody was finished and now that I am in my 50s its extremely rare for me to 
find anybody my age who is still doing their work.

But it doesn't have to be that way.

[00:21:41.23] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah, I love this idea of creativity - because before speaking with you I thought of creativity as 
this extracurricular activity thing that you would do when you have some free time. And what I 
am loving about hearing what you are saying is creativity is inherently always with you and to 
nurture it. ItŐs like a garden. You need to water it. You need to plant some seeds. You need to 
understand that this is a viable thing in your life that does create this energetic flow within you. 
And I am just like really feeling inspired to hear you talk about creativity in such a way like this.

[00:22:17.16]
CA CONRAD: 
Well, good. When I do talks I always -- make sure that I say that I believe creativity is a vital 
organ. And I do mean that. We are only on this planet for a short period of time. Yes, I believe 
we do come back -- whether we do or not, we have a responsibility right now as humans to deal 
with all of the corruption we've done to the surface of the planet. As Elizabeth Culvert says, who 
wrote the book about the sixth mass extinction we are currently in. She says, yes, there are a lot 
of -- actually let me just read the quote.

[00:22:54.05] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yes, please.

[00:22:54.16]
CA CONRAD: 
There are a lot of things that we could do to minimize what we are doing but we're not getting 
back those frogs that I saw that no longer exist. We've lost 60% of all of wildlife. There is a -- 
there is a beautiful called the golden toad that uh just a handful of years ago was wiped out. 
January of this year -- the eastern puma on the eastern United States was completely wiped out 
finally. 

There are so many species -- and when I was a child in the 70s -- there were 25 thousand white 
rhinos on the plains of Africa. In 2018, there are zero in the wild and there are three left and they 
are all in separate zoos. That's what we're talking about here. 

ItŐs a major avalanche of life leaving the planet right now. And that's why we need to be creative. 
We need to figure it out. There are so many people in Europe right now in particular coming up 
with these solutions to -- one use plastic. We've got to stop using plastic. 

[00:23:56.21] 
DAVID DEVINE:
I love -- I just love your passion about all this. It seems like you have such a clear message and I 
love how you insert the creativity into this message as well. 

[00:24:07.11]
CA CONRAD: 
And, I think the students here at Naropa especially at like Jack Kerouac School Summer Writing 
Program -- this is I think my 8th year teaching 7th or 8th -- they are always my favorite students 
to teach because they have a - a political body that's visible. You know I think everybody does, 
but I feel like a lot of people are more reserved about their politics. Naropa encourages this. I feel 
like what Anne Walden and Jeffery and Swainey and everybody doing here is nurturing 
something that is going to sustain not only this community here, but itŐs going to send people out 
to help change the direction we are headed in. And we are headed in a very grime direction. 
There is no doubt about it, but I am not a dark green. You know the green - the environmental 
movement. Many of the environmentalists are dark green and they are like itŐs over. 

There is nothing left. There are people right now who are saying we have just a handful of years 
before things get really dark and awful. I believe that that's not true. And I am not an optimist. I 
simply believe that our collective genius can figure the problems out. We have this opportunity 
right now to stave off this hemorrhaging that is currently underway. And, I think we need to 
actually start with the 7 wars were in. The so called Western world has not seen one of its nations 
invade 7 nations since Nazi Germany. The United States is killing people - our drones have 
killed over a thousand civilians in Pakistan alone - almost 300 of that number were little kids 
under the age of 5. And that was mostly under the Obama administration. I voted for that man 
twice, but it was difficult the second time. Seeing all these people being brutalized. What we're 
doing in the middle east will never be forgiven in our lifetimes. But, we need to end these wars. 
We've got to stop killing people for these resources and we've got to find a new way of living 
without those resources. Because those wars are all about the oil and the gas and we've got to 
stop it. 

[00:26:13.18]
Because if we don't stop consuming these fossil fuels we're going to have to keep engineering 
new wars. You know I can't believe that I am living in this time when I've seen the gay and 
lesbian community co-opted by the military industrial complex. The so called human rights 
campaign -- the equal sign that everybody loves so much. I don't. As somebody who is from the 
80s whose -- in Act Up and Queer Nation -- I never trusted HRC. [00:26:37.19] And, when you 
look at their drop down menu for the corporations they're supposed to be working for -- 
Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Monsanto, Wells Fargo. Like institutional racism and terrorism on 
every -- from like ecology to actual war mechanisms. I am not going to vote -- work for 
Lockheed Martin and build bombs. 

When I think about the people that -- I met Marsha P. Johnson who started the Stonewall Riot in 
1969. I met her in 1990 at a private event in New York City in Topkin Square Park. She was 
standing there with a sign that said Stonewall was her riot not a trademark. And first of all, I was 
like are you Marsha P. Johnson and she is like yes, I am. And I said, you know, I was like I am 
so honored to meet you. I think you are probably the coolest person I've ever met. And she said, 
well of course I am. And we started talking and I was like tell me about your sign. 

And she is like this is all a mistake. Everything -- and this is somebody who didn't just have a 
riot and fight the police. But also, then march in the streets for against the war for labor rights. 
For tenant rights. I mean that's what the gay and lesbian community used to be. [00:27:51.15] 
This like intense revolutionary -- it was like a new American revolution. And, I feel like we've 
lost our way. Because we assimilated to the darkest possible regions of this nation. Our job was 
to convince the dominate culture to join us. But instead we -- thought that the idea was to join 
them. I think the problem is that most of the most radical creative people of my generation died 
of AIDS. And it just wiped out this whole voice -- around us and so we were stuck with these 
sort of like white young rich Republicans who want everybody to get married and vote 
Republican and you know I am just -- its almost like - I can't constantly live in this state of 
disbelief. I have to just accept where we're at. I am actually on the verge of doing a new 
ingredient to this ritual with the extinct animalŐs work. I want to appreciate cement. I want to 
appreciate plastic. I want to appreciate gasoline and coal. I know that sounds insane, but this is 
the planet that I live on. [00:28:54.02] And this is what we've done to it. I don't want to just go 
off into the woods and pretend that all of that doesn't exist. I want to remind myself everyday -- 
my hair is very long. I have it up right now, but I am doing a very long ritual every morning -- 
this is a very long -- this poem is over 5000 pages long -- and every morning I look at the latest 
body count and I measure from the very tips of the hair -- all the war dead and I just let it grow 
with these wars. So, I -- every morning when I wake up I am looking at the latest body counts in 
these countries. The drone reports, etc. [00:29:27.03] And I know when I leave wherever I am at 
-- I am not going to meet a single person in the United States who is talking about these wars. 
And when I go to Europe everybody is talking about them. Everybody I meet wants to say like 
why is your country in all these wars? Nobody talks about it over here. And the media doesn't 
even talk about it over here.

[00:29:48.12] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah, I think a lot of people don't even know we're in a lot of wars. 

[00:29:51.18]
CA CONRAD: 
I don't know how they can't know but I guess you are right. 

[00:29:54.20] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Well, itŐs their filtering systems where they get their information. Where they find what's going 
on -- itŐs not the outlets that want you to know what's going on.

[00:30:04.11]
CA CONRAD: 
War is absolutely evil. And there is no other nation on this planet currently waging this much 
war than the United States -- hands down. If you think I am wrong show me. Because I don't 
think itŐs true. Lockheed Martin unleashed a couple years ago the F-35 Jet. There has never been 
anything like this on the planet. This jet is so sophisticated there will never be a dog fight with it. 
Because -- there - nobody has anything that even remotely close to what this is capable of doing. 
And they are considering it the last fighter jet because we're only working with drones now. As a 
matter of fact, the Spider Jet is almost a drone. Some of the drone operators are here in Denver, 
Colorado. And I mean the drone operators that are killing kids in Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan -- 
you know -- this is more about creativity. There artist in Pakistan right now -- itŐs very easy to be 
in the United States with this isolationist mentality we have and watch TV and Netflix -- 
whatever you want to do and just forget that we're murdering people everyday, but the people in 
Pakistan don't have that luxury. [00:31:12.23] And the artists over there don't have that luxury. 
And what they found out was the artists that the drone operators in Denver can't see facial 
recognition on those drones and itŐs to protect the drone operators from PTSD. 

So, oh its ok for the people in Pakistan to have PTSD -- but just not our precious soldiers here. 
So, you know what they have done? They have taken the photographs of faces of kids that we've 
murdered, and they've blown them to the size of fields - acres. So that when those drones come 
in they can't not see them. I think that is brilliant.

Maybe that will give us more Chelsea ManningŐs. We need more Chelsea ManningŐs.

[00:31:50.14] 
DAVID DEVINE:
ItŐs like humanizing the actual outty of what war is to the people who are trying to not see it. But 
they are involved in it. They are trying to like make it seem like itŐs not this thing that they are 
doing, but they are participating in something that their soul doesn't agree with. Some heavy 
stuff.

[00:32:08.10]
CA CONRAD: 
It is heavy. But it is the reality of the country we are living in. And, every tax dollar you know 
that we pay a portion of that goes to this -- the Pentagon and the war machine. Trump gave them 
an 800 billion dollar raise. That's insane. 

[00:32:26.14] 
DAVID DEVINE:
That's insane.

[00:32:27.11]
CA CONRAD: 
People need medical attention. We have a huge homeless population right now. When I travel 
across the United States part of my ritual involves me sleeping in my car in Walmart parking 
lots. And then -- because Walmart is to me the ultimate -- reesults of manifest destiny. The 
genocide of the native people and wiping out many, many wild species to build WalmartŐs. And 
there are 9000 of them in the lower 48 states. 

And they have about a half a million items in each one. And I listen when 	I wake up in the 
morning in my car - I go into the Walmart. I listen to the extinct animals on headphones. I walk 
around the store into a spiral and then in the middle of the spiral I kneel down and write notes. 
But the thing that I didn't realize was going to happen is that in doing this -- every single 
Walmart parking lot I visit -- there are cars with homeless families. With signs in the windshield 
we need baby formula. We need diapers. There is something about this nation that's just so easy 
for some reason to not see the poor. And we create entire neighborhoods so that you don't have 
to see them. And highway systems. [00:33:42.12] But they are there, and they are there by the 
droves. 

[00:33:46.03] 
DAVID DEVINE:
So, many things that take on -- whoa. You know itŐs like writing is this thing we all learn how to 
do in school, but then there is -- this inserting of meaning within writing and within poetry and 
within the words you write. The way you write it. I really appreciate and acknowledge the fact 
that there are some powerful wordsmiths out there that are really shifting people's thoughts about 
how they should move through the world and it seems - this is something that you've taken on 
too. And this is not no easy task. You seem like you're holding so much in your heart, so much in 
your soul that itŐs like your whole life has turned into a ritual. [00:34:32.16]

[00:34:33.03]
CA CONRAD: 
Well it its. Every day -- I mean this is something that it has done for me. That -- my life is always 
present. I am not interested in dwelling on the past. I've dwelled on the past a little bit to cure my 
depression, but after that was over I am like I got to go forward, and I eat massive amounts of 
garlic every morning. I know that is terrible because you are probably annoyed by that right now. 
In this little room.

[00:34:57.15] 
DAVID DEVINE:
I love garlic.

[00:34:58.11]
CA CONRAD: 
Ok, well itŐs a good thing. Uh -- LAUGHS. But you know the thing is about this writing program 
here at Naropa -- I mean -- I've been here for a few weeks like sitting and listening to panels -- 
this school is not like any other school in the United States. There are brilliant creative people. 
There was a panel yesterday with Dawn Lundy Martin and Rodrigo Toscano and Thurston 
Moore and it was so good. It was such a good panel. And, solutions for what we're supposed to 
do with this culture as it falls apart. Because it is falling apart. But itŐs the best thing is that the 
part that needs to fall apart is crumbling right now. 

I think itŐs beautiful. And, I think that Naropa is like if I meet people who are like maybe I 
should go to writing school - I say well I think you should go to Naropa because -- there is space 
there that you are not going to find elsewhere. 

[00:35:50.16] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah, we have the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied and Poetics here during the normal 
school session and then during the summer which you are here for is the Summer Writing 
Program. And, this is what you are speaking to is like this program that kids get to come to and 
its either you get to come for one week or you can come for all three weeks and every day we 
have panels. We have lectures. We have guest speakers and itŐs just this entourage of intellectual 
knowledge and just meaning and ritual and just beautiful like-minded individuals who are doing 
good work.

[00:36:22.13]
CA CONRAD: 
Very good work. People who are going to help push the cultural forward.

[00:36:27.13] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yes.

[00:36:28.03]
CA CONRAD: 
This sort of deviance that can do that. You know you need - you need a certain amount of 
deviance to be deviance meaning nothing more than outside the acceptable, respectable world 
you know because if you maintain your footing in the acceptable world you're going to wind up 
not being able to change anything. 

[00:36:44.18] 
DAVID DEVINE:
So, to speak more about SWP -- you've been teaching here for -- you say 8 or 9 --

[00:36:49.23]
CA CONRAD: 
Seven or eight years.

[00:36:52.01] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Seven or eight years yeah and I have worked in Naropa for a while and I remember I've seen 
many of your panels, many of your lectures and I was just always so blown away about your just 
openness and your just -- your style of writing and I am curious like how do you define you style 
of writing? Like do you have a style or do you kind of just make it up as you go. Is there 
something - like a bigger narrative has just been taking place over the years of writing?

[00:37:17.21]
CA CONRAD: 
Well, I feel very fortunate to have just been continuously writing for many -- I mean I started 
writing in 1975. So, I'm writing. I've never stopped writing. And, itŐs just part of me now. ItŐs 
like I don't even think about it. I create these rituals. I do the rituals. I take the notes inside the 
ritual. They are not documentary notes. They are notes that are beyond my thinking. I write with 
the speed to get ahead of my -- editor within. Once I get a head of that editor the magical 
language appears.

[00:37:50.12] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Interesting.

[00:37:51.07]
CA CONRAD: 
And then the poems get shaped through those notes. I might use 2% of the words I write down. 

[00:37:57.21] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Huh?

[00:37:59.07]
CA CONRAD: 
Almost all the words are thrown out.

[00:38:00.22] 
DAVID DEVINE:
You go back through that and you choose what you want -- is that how that works?

[00:38:04.20]
CA CONRAD: 
Yeah, I type them all up after they are hand written and its pages and pages of notes and then -- 
itŐs just a tiny fraction. 

[00:38:13.11] 
DAVID DEVINE:
What makes it compared to what doesn't? How do you decide?	

[00:38:17.19]
CA CONRAD: 
I don't know itŐs always different. 

[00:38:19.12] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Ok.

[00:38:19.23]
CA CONRAD: 
And, yeah, I am not sure how to explain that any further. 

[00:38:24.07] 
DAVID DEVINE:
The process -- it just sounds like its happened and over the years you've been doing this you've 
kind of developed your own. And itŐs really interesting to -- so would you say you've probably 
constantly always have a note pad in -- always have a pen. Are you a fan of more writing it down 
or like do you put it in your notes on your phone?

[00:38:43.01]
CA CONRAD: 
No, I always write it down. And then I type it up. And, after its typed up then -- and itŐs just this 
word splurge. It doesn't make any sense. But that's fine. The more it looks like it doesn't make 
sense I know the better itŐs going to be. Once your mind starts to follow a trail -- or a thread or a 
full sentence that's the problem. 

[00:39:03.15] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Interesting.

[00:39:04.10]
CA CONRAD: 
When you maintain that within yourself and just go with that -- you're not finding the real 
magical language inside of you. You have to be willing to get ahead of that. You have to be 
willing to let go of that editor. That editor is invaluable when you are shaping the poem. We've 
been grooming these editors since we were infants. You know like communicating for milk or 
the shiny earring or whatever. And we just keep accumulating these tools on how to 
communicate. And these editors of course eventually learn what syntax is and punctuation and 
that's all well. That's fine. But it gets in the way of the wrong notes. So, I -- itŐs a task that's -- 
that's not always that easy. [00:39:46.19] You get caught in mind loops and I have tools for 
getting out of those.

[00:39:51.20] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah, itŐs like a jazz free style artist compared to someone just reading sheet music and just 
playing the notes.

[00:39:57.17]
CA CONRAD: 
Absolutely. Yeah. That sounds right. 

[00:40:00.05] 
DAVID DEVINE:
I like that. Very cool. Do you notice a difference between - because it sounds like you teach at a 
couple different places. So, when you come to Naropa is there like a difference in the writing 
students here compared to other places? Or would you say writing students in general kind of 
have this uh -- way about them that they have a collective message they usually want to speak 
about?

[00:40:21.16]
CA CONRAD: 
I am excited to visit anybody who is learning to write. That's for sure. And, but -- I think the 
difference isn't the students so much itŐs the institutions. And this institution here fosters a wider 
variety of ideas for being in the world than I can find anywhere else. 

[00:40:41.21] 
DAVID DEVINE:
I like that idea. So, itŐs like the - necessarily the students aren't the people that are different 
coming to the different universities - itŐs the university that is allowing the flow of information 
that you're allowed to kind of like explore and or discuss amongst other people.

[00:40:59.18]
CA CONRAD: 
Well, I am particularly talking about politics. I mean this is the capital of seeing this time. Right, 
so itŐs all about confronting - I mean every year there is a theme that centers around like the 
destruction of ecology, politics, racism, misogyny, homophobia -- these things we talk about 
these things here. 

I am not saying these things are not being talked about elsewhere. I am not saying that. I am just 
saying that there is something here at Naropa that is magical and special. That when you get here 
the land itself -- lends a particular edge to give students the leverage to just really open and be 
themselves. 

[00:41:42.00] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yeah, diving into topics that aren't necessarily ultimately explored.

[00:41:45.20]
CA CONRAD: 
Oh, I see them flourish. They are -- first of all they are brilliant, and they really want to be 
creative. They want community. They want to be -- they are very concerned about these 
problems. And they want to actually do something about it. That's what I find here at Naropa. I 
don't find students that are just wanting to talk about it. They want to do something about it. 

[00:42:06.20] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Yes, I love that. Thank you. So, we have -- we just have like a couple minutes left. And, I just 
want to kind of highlight you a bit. I know that you have written a bunch of books. I am just kind 
of curious do you want to share how people can find your writings. How they can find your 
poetry. Maybe a website or a blog that you do. Anything like that so that people can just follow 
who you are. 

[00:42:26.14]
CA CONRAD: 
Well, if you go on my website -- which is caconrad -- just put that into Google. It will come up. 
CA Conrad dot blogspot dot com. All of my books are there. My new book just won the Land of 
Literary Award, which I am very excited about.

[00:42:40.15] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Congrats.

[00:42:41.10]
CA CONRAD: 
Thank you. And, I have -- my book - the Book of Frank is probably -- well, I wrote a book about 
Elvis that is very popular, but the book I wrote called the Book of Frank is probably my best 
selling book I would say. ItŐs been translated into 9 languages. ItŐs being translated into Polish 
now. The Danish translation came out a couple months ago and I just got this great review and I 
am very excited about my translator Lina Kallmayer and I are very excited - Ovo Press published 
the book because it was a full page review with a photograph of me and raving about the book 
and itŐs in their biggest newspaper - itŐs like the New York Times of Denmark. I am not actually 
-- the festival isn't in Copenhagen -- its outside of Copenhagen. So, I am going to get to be 
reading with Lina from this translation. I am very excited about. 

[00:43:28.15] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Awesome. So, I really appreciate you coming in and speaking with me. There is just like this 
passion that you have. There is this knowledge -- this insight. I love how you incorporate ritual 
into everything you do. It seems like -- there is so many rituals that I can be implementing in my 
life that I am hyper sensitive and aware to the world's state in which I live in and to also ignite 
other people to invite themselves to like kind of show in a more meaningful way and I just love 
your perspective on everything and just thank you for speaking with me today.

[00:44:05.14]
CA CONRAD: 
Thank you. Do you mind if I read one tiny little new poem in the new book?

[00:44:08.17] 
DAVID DEVINE:
I would love it.

[00:44:09.20]
CA CONRAD: 
As a goodbye.

[00:44:10.14] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Please read another one.

[00:44:11.08]
CA CONRAD: 
This is from -- a ritual that I did in Martha, Texas. Where I did 36 rituals a day for 36 days. It 
was quite exciting. 

[00:44:19.06] 
DAVID DEVINE:
This is like a ritual upon a ritual. 

[00:44:21.14]
CA CONRAD: 
It was great. I loved every minute of it.

[00:44:23.07] 
DAVID DEVINE:
An intention.

[00:44:23.22]
CA CONRAD: 

"Saturn.1"

butterfly on a tissue box
not a real one
a painting
a monarch
one more sign
for anguish
poured and
poured a choice to feel or
stack bricks between
I was sad when my
talented friend started designing
television commercials
he told me to grow up
but the rocks in the desert I touch
signal an endless new place something
without money saying Ňnever tire of
demanding love for the worldÓ

[00:44:54.23] 
DAVID DEVINE:
Thank you so much for sharing all that. 

[00:44:56.12]
CA CONRAD: 
Thank you for having me.

[00:44:59.04] 
DAVID DEVINE:
So, that was CA Conrad on the podcast. CA is a writer, a poet, an author and a teacher. And is 
teaching at the Summer Writing Program this semester at Naropa. So, thanks again.

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On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of 
Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more 
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