[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Quip Cast. So today I sit down with some of my fellow coaches, Jodi, Andy, and Whitney, and we talk all about how to choose an evangelization formation ministry for your clear path. This is the second installment in our series about how to choose steps for your clear path. We go through all the different options for evangelization formation.

We talk about the characteristics, the keys for success. Uh, we talk about some of the pitfalls that you need to avoid. It's a really fun conversation if, uh, you or your parish ministry are at a point where you're ready to discern an evangelization formation ministry, or maybe you just want to give yours an upgrade, you're gonna love today's conversation, take a listen.

Hey everybody. Welcome to The Equipped Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Janssen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast. So this episode is part of a special series on how to choose a specific ministry for each step of your clear path. Today we're gonna zero in on the evangelization formation step. So to start, a clear path of discipleship is a parish framework designed to help people take their next steps as disciples of Jesus.

It's your plan for making and maturing disciples. Now, parishes and ministries that have a clear path of discipleship know exactly how they connect with people, how they foster conversion, how they help people grow as disciples, and how they equip people as missionary disciples. They have a context for the missionary disciples in their parish or in their ministry.

To bring people to that place so that they can accompany them on their spiritual journey wherever they need. Whether they need to experience conversion or be equipped for their mission. When they accompany people, they have a place to bring them, a context where they can experience that gift. Well, the concept is simple, but choosing a ministry to serve the individual steps on the clear path of discipleship, take some research and discernment.

And that's where we are today. I have a panel of coaches with me. We're gonna, we're gonna talk about how do you choose a, uh, evangelization of formation ministry to fill that step on your clear path. And so with me, I've got Andy Deka. Andy, how you doing today? 

[00:02:30] Andy Dejka: Doing great. Glad to be here. 

[00:02:31] Jim Jansen: Good. Uh, Whitney Bradley, how are you?

[00:02:33] Whitney Bradley: Hello. Very good. 

[00:02:35] Jim Jansen: Good. I'm not sure what the laughter means. She's faking it. Uh, Jodi, how are you? 

[00:02:41] Jodi Phillips: I am doing all right. 

[00:02:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Jodi Phillips, thank you for being here. I mean, thank you all for being here. I just forgot to say your, me best. Uh, well, better we know now. Uh, okay. Jodi, since I love you best, you're first.

Get us started here. Can you give us just a simple overview? What is evangelization formation? What is that, that ministry as part of the clear path? What is it designed to do? 

[00:03:06] Jodi Phillips: Yeah, I think, um, probably all of us, if we've ever asked anyone, like, what's stopping you from sharing your faith? The first answer is gonna be like.

I don't know what to do or how to do it, or I don't know enough. So evangelization formation is any ministry that's designed to equip disciples as they are sent on mission through the power of the Holy Spirit? Yeah, so this is how we get people from saying, I don't know how to do it. I don't know enough to saying like, I can do this.

The Lord is with me and, and I'm going to do this. Usually within the con, within the community of my parish. I have other people who are supporting me in and through this. 

[00:03:42] Jim Jansen: You know, as soon as you said that there reminds me way back kind of an, an old older book now on, on evangelization, Matthew Kelly's four Signs of a Dynamic Catholic uhhuh.

He did, as I understand a ton of research, like it was very large pool. They did research and they asked people. You know, like if, if you share your faith and they had a really hard time that like, 'cause people would say no. But then when you really dug into it, they're like, oh. But I do give out Catholic books and I do invite people to conferences and these things.

And then they ask people, ha, do you ever feel like you've been like trained or equipped to share your faith? And it was like less than 1%. Yep. Would would say. They're like, no, I'm Catholic. Nobody's ever taught me how to do this. I just kind of like, I do love Jesus and I feel like I have to share. Yeah. So this is fascinating.

This is a, we're in a space that most, I. Catholics, most parishes, most ministries have spent very little time. 

[00:04:39] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. And, and one to your point, like people who have really encountered the love of, of Jesus, I can't help but share him. Right. That's, there's this story in the acts of the apostles in the fourth chap, fourth chapter.

It's one of my favorites after, um, Peter and John, right? They're arrested. Mm-hmm. And, and, um, and they're told like, stop talking about Jesus. And they say, we can't help but speak of what we have seen and heard. And I think that's true of a missionary disciple, but we can help them do it better. Right.

[00:05:09] Whitney Bradley: I made a lot of mistakes.

[00:05:11] Jodi Phillips: Yeah.

[00:05:11] Whitney Bradley: When I first started. 

[00:05:12] Jim Jansen: Well, and, and sometimes, I mean, spoiler alert, sometimes the, the equipping is just, Hey, by the way, your baptism, your confirmation, that's a thing and it's real. And the spirit of the Almighty God resides in you. Yeah. You'll be fine. 

[00:05:26] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. I mean, it's a little more than that, but someone's just reminding them of who they are.

Is, is a really big part of this formation. Yeah. Pentecost happened and is happening. Yeah. And it's, it's real. It's and it's real. It's real. 

[00:05:39] Jim Jansen: Holy spirit's not tired. 

[00:05:41] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. So typically evangelization formation is serving the individuals in the thresholds of missionary disciple and fruitful disciple. So these are people who are obviously disciples, right?

They've encountered Jesus. Mm-hmm. They know him, they love him. They have probably spent some amount of time getting to know him, right? Mm-hmm. Just like anyone in any kind of relationship. Gets to know they're beloved. Like so they know they're beloved and now they're like, well, I want other people to know what I've experienced.

Just like when I have a really good friend, I want other people to know my really good friend. 

[00:06:16] Whitney Bradley: Yeah. 

[00:06:16] Jodi Phillips: And so these are the people who are usually either seeking some kind of formation 'cause they're like, I know there's more. I know there's something I need. Or sometimes have to be sought out. 'cause they're like, I see something in you.

I see a deep faith. I see you coming to adoration every night. Or you know, you've got your regular time. Mm-hmm. Like, you love Jesus. I think, I think you should probably talk about it a little more. Can I help you do that? 

[00:06:40] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I, I appreciate that. 'cause I feel like the, the differentiator. For people who are ready for this step, is this awareness that they are called to be missionary, right?

In their ordinary? Well, I mean, maybe they're called to go to another country, but for most of us in our ordinary comings and goings our, you know, our jobs, our neighborhoods, that awareness might already be there, or it just might. Need to be gently called forth. 

[00:07:08] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. It's something of a, another conversion, you know, for some of us it's immediate.

Like I encounter, I don't know if this was me, so I say us loosely, but like for some people they encounter Jesus. Right? Andrews this way in the, in the Gospels. Mm-hmm. He encounters Jesus and immediately goes to Peter. He's like, I have met the Messiah. Come on bro. Let's go. Like, for a lot of other people, like they meet the Lord and they get to know him, and, and then there's another, like, there's another turning, right?

That's what conversion is. Another turning towards, oh wait, this is for other people? Mm-hmm. Oh. Oh. That means something. That demands something of me. Oh, you asked Peter to drop his net. Not just to follow you, but to fish for other people. You probably mean that of me too. 

[00:07:51] Jim Jansen: Right? Well that's totally my, my story is like, oh no, I'm not, oh no, I'm not sure if, I'm not sure if everybody's gonna like this message.

They may not like me. And then I had to chew. Well, that's like how, what kind of a friend am I? 

[00:08:06] Jodi Phillips: Oh yeah. 'cause you get, yeah, the rejection is just real. 

[00:08:09] Jim Jansen: Well, what kind of a friend am I to them? And does Jesus, like Jesus wants to meet them? He does. Am I willing to make the introduction and take that risk?

Which, which is, I mean, just if we're honest, for most of us here in the western world. That risk very rarely involves bloodshed. 

[00:08:27] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. 

[00:08:28] Jim Jansen: You know, and for some it did.

[00:08:30] Jodi Phillips: It's mostly people just giving you weird looks and walking the other direction, but it really going on with their lives. People do that, you're not.

Right. 

[00:08:39] Jim Jansen: Okay. Jodi, what are some of the, what are some of the characteristics of a fruitful or a healthy, uh, evangelization Formation? 

[00:08:48] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. First of all, I think it's really practical, right? So these are AP skills that the missionary disciple can apply during their time of formation. So the first of those is actually prayer.

Like, obviously we're hoping that the, the missionary disciple has been praying since the moment they encountered the Lord, but the prayer's gonna start to take on a different character. Mm-hmm. Right. My, my prayer is first and foremost, my relationship with the Lord. But as I get to know the heart of the Lord better, I start to see his heart for other people.

Think about a recent retreat that I had and how many times where the Lord showed me, not only how present he was to me in particular memories and just particular situations, but also where he was with other people in my life. 

[00:09:35] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:35] Jodi Phillips: Which is super powerful. Right. So my prayer takes on on just like a different color maybe.

Right? So there's some training in intercessory prayer that that, that we can help with. Like, how do I pray with people? How do I pray out loud without being embarrassed, uh, about it? How do I pray with another person? And those kinds of things. I think also then how do I share my story? Mm-hmm. Right?

Because the Lord has changed my life. I should, I wanna be able to talk about that, but that's. That can be kind of scary. 

[00:10:06] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's not rocket science, but it isn't like perfectly intuitive either. Yeah. Especially in the culture we live in. 

[00:10:15] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. So how do I share my story and particularly how do I share and proclaim the gospel through my story?

So not just, I'm telling you. Okay. So I was born and, and then these things happen, but really like, here's how the Lord has touched my life and, and like, here's how the Lord has entered into history and, and like has made a difference for me and for all. 

[00:10:37] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. And you know, I just point out, I don't know if there are people who are listening who are like, maybe they're just not used to thinking about prayer as a skill.

And obviously there's a lot of really beautiful ways that we can talk about prayer because it's first of all a gift, right? Right. Yeah. But it is also a skill. There's a, there's a, a habit, there's a a thing. I mean, this is why religious orders and Christians from time immemorial have taught others how to pray.

[00:11:02] Whitney Bradley: Yeah. I mean, I, I did wanna jump in earlier 'cause it, it's not like prayer is so unnatural that it does have to be taught. But I, because we, we wanna say like the Lord has a natural way of encountering us, but I think we, it's, at least in my experience, grew up in a church that knew more about devotional prayers than it did about relational prayer.

[00:11:26] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:26] Whitney Bradley: And so by the time you're an adult, you are not in tune with the ordinary ways that the Lord is talking to you every day. And so it's almost like we have to reteach you relational prayer. So we often get people in the mentorship program who are great prayers that, but they. They don't necessarily know how to recognize the Lord's voice, right?

[00:11:48] Jim Jansen: Yeah. They're disciplined, they're dedicated, they're loving. But when they are taught very, very simple skills like Lexio Davina and, you know, a RRR and other kind of things that begin with listening and then, and then a, a conversation with the Lord. I mean, it's life changing. Yeah. Absolutely. For these people.

[00:12:07] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. And just, I think even specifically like to pray with another person, like feels terrifying until you've done it. Like, yeah, because there's this idea that we have to put on a performance, but prayer shouldn't ever be a performance. It's a relationship. Right. And so I'm just inviting the other person a, across the room or right next to me, into that relationship and into that conversation.

I. Which doesn't have to be eloquent. It can be, Jesus, I just want to ask you into Andy's life and he's right here with me, and so please do something. Yeah. Like that's enough. And that's a heart can be as heartfelt as it is, but that feels really scary for a church where we think that only the priest can do that.

[00:12:51] Jim Jansen: Right. I mean, it feels like a good portion of the formation training we're talking about is dispelling of misconceptions about what it means to be a Christian, you know, a a about what evangelization is. And we're like, no, no, no, no, no. We, I mean, fine. If you're given the gift, great. Go preach on a street corner.

What we're talking about is you having a conversation with your fallen away cousin. Yeah, right. You know, and, and just that level of dispelling misconceptions. People are like, oh. 

[00:13:23] Jodi Phillips: And then being courageous in the moment when something really deep happens to say, can I pray with you right now? Yeah, absolutely.

And them saying. Yeah. And just the moment that that can bring. 

[00:13:33] Jim Jansen: Okay, so we've got characteristic number one skills, communicate some, some of these basic skills. Yep. What else? 

[00:13:39] Jodi Phillips: I think the other characteristic, uh, well, I have a few, but is, um, is some kind of formation or discernment of charisms, so, right. We know in first by virtue of our baptism, second by the gifts of the Holy Spirit in our confirmation that we have received the Holy Spirit in very personal and real ways.

Part of that is the gifts that the Lord gives us for the service of the kingdom. Yeah. The gifts for others, for others. Yeah. Again, like this is built into our very sacramental order and are given to all of us, you know, usually by our preteen years. 

[00:14:17] Jim Jansen: Can you give a, an example or two of charisms? 

[00:14:20] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. For, for some people this might be a charism of something like evangelism, so I often think about.

Someone who, like you just meet someone and you, they, it's like you get into a spiritual conversation and without even having any difficulty. Mm-hmm. Right. And like suddenly, like the Lord is there and like conversion is happening and like, you didn't even have to say the right words because the Lord is working through it so powerfully.

Um, and all you're doing is showing up. Yes. Yeah. Like another example though would be like a charism of hospitality, right? So there's a skill of hospitality that I, I find I have to think about, like, okay, we're gonna have, we're gonna clean my house before people show up and. But it's kind of draining for me, which is why I don't have people over that often, like mm-hmm.

Like preparing to be hospitable, but for people with the cares of, of hospitality. I think you've talked about your friend Craig Doring, who's probably been on the equipped cast before. He has like he can, he can, you've said before, like he can make a paper plate feel like, find China. 

[00:15:29] Jim Jansen: No. I dunno if I said that, but, but yeah, we've been in places where it's like.

What was offered was very, very simple. Right. It wasn't about like fine wine and caviar. It was about hospitality. Yeah. About being seen, feeling perfectly welcome and at ease. And I mean, Craig's actually a good cook too, but it's, but it's more than that. It's this gift where you feel a little bit of God's love Yes.

Through the food and the conversation and the environment that's presented, even if it's not fancy. 

[00:16:02] Jodi Phillips: Yep. Yeah. So, or so wisdom would be someone could speak some kind of word of wisdom into a situation that, again, is not like, they're not a dumb person, but like it's a little bit beyond them, right? Yeah.

This gift of wisdom. So there's so many, there's, I couldn't remember the exact number in this moment, but there's so many, and they usually build on our nature, but they are, they are a particular gift of the Lord. Often that are, we've discerned how the Lord's working in and through us in particular ways.

And so, right. I'm participating with the spirit in this particular way, and I'm, I'm kind of growing it and strengthening it, but for the service of others. Right. Not for myself. 

[00:16:40] Jim Jansen: Well, and it matters because when you're aware, uh, as an individual about how the Lord has gifted you for his service, he shows up when you use that gift.

And when he shows up there, because he is who he is, he often does something deeper in people's hearts. Right. It becomes a moment of evangelization where we're like, I thought we were just having a party. You know, I, I thought, or like my, my dad was like a, you know, gift of, uh, craftsman. So like, he just, it was good, but it was more than just he knew how to use a hammer and a saw people would experience God's love.

And in the context of that, even though my dad was not a preacher or a teacher, people would experience conversion. In the context of his craftsmanship. So when people are aware of these charisms, whether they're ordinary or ones that might seem more spiritual, it's their awareness that allows 'em then to cooperate with the Lord's desire to save souls.

Yep. Okay. What else? 

[00:17:40] Jodi Phillips: Another characteristic, um, I think I might have mentioned this super briefly, is as a team approach, I mentioned like it's within this context of, of the parish or the community, so right, there's, there's these stories of Jesus sending out his disciples and he always sends them out two by two.

Mm-hmm. Right? He never sends them out alone. And so when we're, when we're doing any kind of evangelization formation, we're forming people to find their partners, right? Like Yeah. Who's on mission with you? Because I, I don't, I dunno about any of you in this room, I cannot be on mission alone. First of all, that's actually why we're on mission together as a team, but also within the life of my parish.

Like I, I know my team. And I know that there are then actually some areas where it's kind of difficult to be on mission because I feel alone in that space. 

[00:18:27] Whitney Bradley: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:28] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. And it doesn't mean that the Lord's not asking me to do something there, but it won't be as fruitful as the spaces where I'm with other people.

[00:18:34] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, you can imagine from our previous example, the person who has the gift of hospitality throws the party and the person with the gift of evangelism is invited. You know? And like, and they're like, oh, that's great. Like I just was stuck, like trying to talk to people at bus stops. But you have a party, you know?

And like it's just often I think there's a matchmaking role that parishes, you know, like there's this whole team and, and we're able, we're well the whole community of people and we're able to introduce people to one another and they find that missing companion teammate that they've needed all along.

Yep. 

[00:19:10] Andy Dejka: I would just add too, uh, there's been some studies I think, on people that have been involved with. Campus Apostolates. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, as part of a missionary team, and they've been effective on campus, but what happens when they leave? Are they still effective in the mission? And it's the ones that, uh, have a team around them Yes.

That are able to continue. Right. That's, that was kind of the critical Yeah. Factor of what they Yeah. It's a huge 

[00:19:33] Jim Jansen: differentiator. Yeah. Thank you for that, Andy. That's huge. 

[00:19:35] Jodi Phillips: Yep. Yeah. And then finally they're mentored. So, I mean, we have here in the Archdiocese of Omaha, we're gonna talk about a little bit more the mentorship program, but I think this is true of any evangelization formation.

So I think about my own experience. I am, uh, someone who came into full communion with the Catholic church in my early twenties, but I was formed particularly both in discipleship and for mission through Campus Crusade for Christ. So I was discipled. Within small groups, but also one-on-one intentional discipleship.

So when I was starting small groups, when I was reaching out to my sorority, when I was out on campus preaching the gospel, yes, I was one of those crazy people. Whatever the place was that I was doing it, I always had, at any given time, I had a person who was supporting and mentoring me through that process, which was like, it never felt hard because I always had someone helping me.

[00:20:33] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I mean, they were modeling things for you. Oh yeah. They were praying for you, they were encouraging you a little bit, a little bit of instruction. Again, nothing rocket science, but they were just there accompanying you. Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:45] Andy Dejka: Yeah. What I'd like to mention too, just as we talk about like, um, evangelization formation, you know, we listed off a lot of the characteristics here, but we're not actually talking about an extensive, lengthy kind of formation.

Or it something that would like delay action in the mission field. Right. There isn't like a actually doing it right away. 

[00:21:03] Jim Jansen: Yeah. There isn't a marriage badge prerequisite. It's like, well, oh sorry, you've only, you love Jesus, but there are five other boxes you have to check before you're allowed to talk.

Anybody take this, this five year course, right? Yeah. Which is, thank you. 'cause that's a fear I think for some people, meaning like. I think there's two errors on this. Error. Number one is like, oh my gosh, people have to know so much before they're ready and, and there's a mistake there and it, but then I think some people might react against that.

It's like, no, no, no, just send people out. It's like, well, I mean, yes, but also just a little bit of encouragement and a little bit of equipping goes a long way. Walking with to their persistence. 

[00:21:43] Whitney Bradley: Yeah. I mean, both should be happening at the same time. I always, I think about Jesus with the apostles, and sometimes I feel like that error that you mentioned where it's like, well, but Jesus took three years to form his apostles.

And it's like, yeah, he did. But actually, do you know what the first thing he did, he called them and then immediately he sent So sent them out. Yeah. And so if you're unaware, like look up, it's right before the feeding of the 5,000. He sends them, he feeds the 5,000, I'm pretty sure I got this right. And then they come back and they're so amped up it says something like, and then they told him everything they experienced.

And so I can just imagine him listening, encouraging them, and then he is like, okay, let's go pray. Yes. And then that's when his real ministry to them. Starts, it's after he's, they've seen a few things. They're sent and then they have the rest of those three years to be taught and to walk alongside him as he's doing work.

[00:22:40] Jodi Phillips: It's almost like a practicum more than like, right. 

[00:22:43] Jim Jansen: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. There's a con, concurrent reality. They're being formed. I think you can say there's lots of mini sendings. 

[00:22:49] Whitney Bradley: Right. If that's not the only one. Right. It just always sticks out to me. 'cause I maybe growing up never realized there were, it was so quick.

It happens twice. 

[00:22:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:22:57] Whitney Bradley: Because it, we think of him sending the 70, but he sends the 12. 

[00:23:01] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:23:01] Whitney Bradley: First.

[00:23:01] Jim Jansen: That's really good. And, and would say, so that's, I mean, that's maybe there's a mark and I think it fits under what you said. Jodi men mentored. Mm-hmm. But one of the marks of effective evangelization formation is people are doing it.

[00:23:14] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. Right away. Right away, right away. And in that process, they're building skills. Like I can, I can tell you all these stories of, of like, oh, I can remember the room where I learned how to preach the gospel that way, and how I learned when I learned how to give my testimony and when we were diving in the materials, but I was already leading a small group, you know?

Mm-hmm. It was just, I was doing the thing and learning new skills and new habits and and new things the whole time. Yeah. And I was just getting better at it. Like always just getting better. 

[00:23:42] Whitney Bradley: It'd be like turn to learn to cook without ever picking up a knife. 

[00:23:45] Jodi Phillips: Yeah.

[00:23:45] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:23:45] Jodi Phillips: I still have a long way to go, but better.

[00:23:48] Jim Jansen: Yeah. There's a rhythm. I, I mean, I'm actually drawn back to something. Art Fisher. Lucas used to say that wi with Jesus, there was always this rhythm of come and go and come and, yeah. A coming to him, a gathering, a refreshing, a time of prayer. A time of a. Formation and training and then, and then a time of being set and, and that there's this pattern which is deep in evangelization formation.

Okay. Whitney, I'm gonna ask you the hard question. 'cause in some ways this is easy 'cause there's not a lot to say, but, but it's hard 'cause there's not a lot to say. What are some of the ministries and programs that parishes can use to like form people for evangelization? 

[00:24:31] Whitney Bradley: Yeah, so like you said, there's not actually a lot of program that encompass all, not yet at least all the needs of a missionary disciple.

So before I name any specific programs, I did just wanna mention like the types of things mm-hmm. That it does. And I think what you were just saying about Archbishop Lucas is that coming in that going whatever your evangelization formation step. Has, it needs to have a space for community. Mm-hmm. For the disciples to come together and to share the joys and challenges of going on mission.

But in that space, they also need a little bit of formation. All those things that Jodi was just talking about, they need to be formed in. It can be kind of intensive and all at once, or it can be a trickle. It's, there's a lot of ways to do it. And then finally they need support. They need that ongoing mentor and there's gotta be some sort of structure for that.

'cause we're not in our busy society very good. Mm-hmm. At intentionally mentoring and accompanying other people. And so we just, we have to also build that kind of structure and habit into our evangelization formation. 

[00:25:45] Jim Jansen: You know, I just wanna highlight something you said there, Whitney. Just, I mean, both the support piece.

And the community piece, essentially what we're asking people to do. It's very, like, it's very counter-cultural. You know, some of us have experienced this, and I think I've maybe talked about this before, but like, you suddenly find yourself as like, oh gosh, it's hard enough to find a community of faithful disciples.

But now that the Lord has impressed upon my heart, this call to mission, now I feel alone again, because not everybody feels that. Mm-hmm. Even the faithful disciples don't necessarily feel that. And if I'm gonna persist in answering that call to, to step out in faith, to, to be courageous, to go on mission, I need a teammate, I need a community.

I need, I, I need support because I just don't persevere through countercultural things very well without that. 

[00:26:39] Whitney Bradley: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:40] Jim Jansen: Me neither, but seriously now. 

[00:26:44] Whitney Bradley: I need some things. 

[00:26:45] Jim Jansen: Okay, fine. Community formation support. What, like what are some of the things, like what are some of the programs, because this is different again, all of the other steps on a clear path there.

Well, not all of them, but for some of them there's like a thing, a video series or a something. You can get outta the box. 

[00:27:00] Whitney Bradley: Just do Alpha, or just do... 

[00:27:01] Jim Jansen: right.

[00:27:01] Whitney Bradley: Discovering Christ just right. No, we don't have anything. I think that, well, we have a few things that fully encompass, I would say the mentorship program here at the Archdiocese, and then if your parish wants to start a parish base mentorship program that can fully encompass this step.

Evangelical Catholic, which gets a shout out in a couple of our episodes, also does a really good job of filling out this step completely. But otherwise, we've got a few things that will get you pretty far with some of the structures. We have something called School of Mission, which will help you launch small groups and upper rooms, and I.

Teach you some of the skills or start some mentoring in that space. 

[00:27:48] Jim Jansen: Now, just what's an upper room for those who maybe dunno what that is? 

[00:27:51] Whitney Bradley: Yeah, so an upper room is another thing that could be on this list. And it's basically just a, a periodic time that you bring your disciples together and it's, it's reminiscent of the upper room where the apostles after, well before but also after Jesus had ascended, waited upon the Holy Spirit.

And so they gathered together and they prayed and they encouraged each other, and then they received the Holy Spirit and they went out. Mm-hmm. And so is the upper room could do the same thing. 

[00:28:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And which is maybe like devotion to the Holy Spirit should be hopefully a part of every aspect of your clear path, every aspect, you know, your discernment, your, you know, every step.

Certainly. I mean, it's the spirit who fosters conversion. But there's something particular about the need for the empowerment of the spirit when people are trying to set out on mission. I mean, it is, I mean, you could say Evangel evangelization formation in some ways is like a school of the Holy Spirit.

Uh, not a self-referential school, but one that's like, helps you see the heart of God. For others. 

[00:28:58] Whitney Bradley: There's two other programs, by the way, that I'd like to give a shout out to. Oh, please, please. And the first one is called In Gifted. We just love it as a charisms program. Mm-hmm. Just a charisms, not just, but like, it doesn't do all the other things that Jodi was mentioning.

It's a charisms program. Uh, but it also, why we like this one in particular is it brings your disciples together as they're learning about their charisms, to discern their charisms. You don't just take a test and say, oh, that's, these are my top six. Right? Yeah. No, you're actually discerning them. 

[00:29:28] Jim Jansen: And it's communal.

Yeah, it's communal. It's communal. And there's a, there's a little bit of mentoring involved with it. People help you with the discernment process. It's not gonna 

[00:29:34] Whitney Bradley: be your full step, but it can really flush out a portion of the step. 

[00:29:37] Jodi Phillips: And I think if you have other pieces, it's, it's a little bit of like you're building sometimes you're.

Putting things together for evangelization formation and called and gifted really can fit nicely. Yeah. In, yeah, it's quite good. Kind of the collection, we just 

[00:29:48] Jim Jansen: say there are, are several charism kind of assessments, but the fullest kind of learning how to discernment has been put together by the Catherine DeSena Institute.

Uh, and it's worth going through the training to get fully up and up and running. So you have facilitators in the parish who can run the workshop to help people learn their charisms and discern them. Yeah. 

[00:30:13] Whitney Bradley: If you can tell we're not big fans of recreating the wheel when the wheel's all already been made.

[00:30:17] Jim Jansen: Heck yeah. 

[00:30:18] Whitney Bradley: But you know, there are other charism tests out there if, if you want to recreate the wheel. And then beyond that, there is a program actually started by a. Christian Church here in Omaha called Reach one More. And what it does is it, it's like a six week series that takes all of the pri, like the main obstacles that you encounter when you try and encourage someone to go on mission mm-hmm.

And kind of flips 'em on their head and says, this is an obstacle, this is an opportunity, and let's teach you a basic training. So, and I don't mean this in a bad way, but I sometimes call it the mentorship program light. Like it's not gonna do everything that the mentorship program can do for you. Mm-hmm.

But boy can it launch people into that experience of mission if you just have a bunch of. Stubborn people who aren't quite ready for the mentorship program. Right? 

[00:31:08] Jim Jansen: Well, it's a, I dunno if it'd be stubborn, but Yeah, it's a six week, it's a six week start versus the whole kind of two year formation program.

Yeah, and I, I would only add two things. You can purchase evangelization formators, so focus the fellowship of Catholic University students. You can hire parish based missionaries that will do evangelization formation, right? They'll do evangelization and then they'll train your people how to do evangelization.

All the things, right? The conversation starters, the personal prayer, sharing their story. They'll facilitating a small group. They'll train people how to do that and they'll train them how to train others how to do that. The Evangelical Catholic does something similar. They won't send staff, but they will personally train and mentor a point person at the parish to do that for others.

Again, small groups sharing your story. Personal prayer, a lot of the, the kind of foundational things for evangelization and if you have the money, go for it. I mean, it's, it's a, I can't think of a better investment, uh, for the health of your parish. I wanna ask a question, though, here. This is a hard one for, for Andy.

When we talk about evangelization formation, sometimes we talk about things like alpha and lent together small groups and things that I think, you know, if, if those of us who, who wanna have like kind of airtight compartments, we say like, wait, no Alpha's a conversion moment. Wait, no. Lent together is a small group, you know, for faith formation.

Et cetera, et cetera. Why, why would you talk about those things as evangelization formation? Andy, can you just kind of fix all that confusion for us? 

[00:32:53] Andy Dejka: I don't think I can fix it all. No, I think, um, I, I think so when I think about it, it's, it's related to this idea that we are both disciples and missionaries at the same time.

There's not really a true separation be between that call, um, right. Pope Francis says it's, you know, two sides of the same coin. And so I think, I think, I think that's part of the answer is that as we're forming people as disciples, we're also forming them as missionaries. I think the shift happens in the person, right, in the person who is coming to maybe receive formation.

And then when the shift really becomes that they take up the mission of Christ themselves, they might still be involved in the same program. They might still be involved in mm-hmm. In Alpha that they were previously just receiving in. But now they've become a leader. They've, they have a different orientation in how they approach that program where they're now mentoring other people or helping lead other people to Christ.

[00:33:48] Jim Jansen: Right. And behind the scenes it's often really intentional. Mm-hmm. So that, you know, the, those who are leading, let's say used Alpha, which is a great example, those who are coordinating the Alpha program for the parish, they're praying that God would raise up another generation of table facilitators mm-hmm.

And hosts. And then they're looking and they're intentionally inviting people who've experienced it to step into those leadership roles. Mm-hmm. And the very simple preparation for like, okay, so now you're a table leader, you need to patiently listen, you know, as people share. That is a beginning.

Formation in evangelization. 

[00:34:26] Jodi Phillips: You see that built into things like CEC or some of the ecclesial movements too. Right? It's, you went on this retreat. Mm-hmm. And through this beautiful matic experience, we'd like to invite you to be on our team, and over the course of the next six, eight months to a year, however long before the next retreat, we're gonna form you as a disciple.

And for mission. You think you're just going to meetings to plan the next retreat, but you're actually being formed along the way. It's not a bait and switch. Totally. You know? 

[00:34:55] Whitney Bradley: Yeah. I mean, it's not a bait and switch, but we do have evangelization coordinators who know they have to start with a conversion moment and are hoping that their conversion moment will produce some missionary disciples.

Yeah. Who will then be able to help them with other steps on the clear path, and so they're using it. In both ways, right? They want the conversion, but they also want the missionary disciple. 

[00:35:16] Jim Jansen: Right? And the experience itself is formative. Mm-hmm. Like when you see the effect that hospitality has, when you see the effect that a preaching of the gospel has, when you see the effect that simple non-judgmental listening has that trains you to like, oh, I always thought I had to provide an answer right away.

And when I just listened and let them talk it out and just kinda waited, it's like their crazy heretical notion just disappeared. And, and man, I'm glad I didn't try and answer that. Anything else on, on this? 'cause I wanna jump in the discernment space, but do we have, I think we've covered kind of all of the stuff, the, the tools.

Andy, maybe you can say like, the, the whole point of like what we're trying to talk about here is helping people begin to choose and choosing, you know, another word for that would be discernment. What are the things that want that, that we need to keep in mind as we discern a evangelization formation step for our parish or a specific ministry?

[00:36:22] Andy Dejka: Yeah. I'll say a couple things here and then yeah, if anyone else wants to jump in, what's really key is, kinda going back to what Jodi said initially, laying out some of the characteristics, um, is just staying focused on what are the fundamental skills that my leaders need to grow in. Mm-hmm. Right. So the personal prayer, intercession, understanding of the thresholds, um, where people are at in their, in their journey, sharing the gospel.

Then, you know, being formed in, in how to have conversations with other people. So I, I think those are all the fundamental habits that form kind of a, a, a guide. Mm-hmm. Like this is what people need to be formed in. And then really it, I think it comes down to more of just the rhythms of how I gather those people, you know?

Mm-hmm. And how they're being supported by, by other mentors. But it's all, I think it's really fundamentally the same, the same skills. I think another thing to keep in mind is we can easily be tempted to kinda stretch beyond our capacity. Right. Uh, our capacity to mentor people because we think, oh, well this, you know, so many people need to be formed in these habits that I just need to offer something big.

[00:37:25] Jim Jansen: Let's get a hundred people signed up. Let's take a full day and 

[00:37:28] Andy Dejka: Right. Exactly. Give 'em all the things. But if I don't have enough people that are leaders, um, that are equipped. To accompany those people. I'm really just watering down the experience. Mm-hmm. They're not able to get a, a true accompaniment or mentorship in those habits.

[00:37:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's hard. I don't like it that you said that you're totally, you're totally right. But I mean, if you don't have some disciples who have just a little bit of an experience, like they may be led a small group, they know how to share their story, they've been doing intercessory prayer. If you don't have just a few people who are a step ahead, it's hard to provide the accompaniment mentoring needed for, for those.

I mean, you can run 'em through a course and you can train 'em in some skills, but it's hard to do that. Uh, it's hard to provide what, what people really need if you don't have some, some other leaders that are a step ahead to help mentor mm-hmm. Those who are learning it for the first time. 

[00:38:22] Whitney Bradley: And I'm not trying to undercut this point.

Um, I think it's really important you start with what you have, but for anybody who maybe like Jim found that a little discouraging. I just, I'm thinking about several of my parishes that had just started with nothing. Mm-hmm. And, you know, two people went through the mentorship program or, you know, went through something and are now that step ahead and it goes pretty quickly from two people to five people to now we can start something.

And, and it's, yes. You know, I'm talking one to two, maybe three years and, and that might seem long, but I swear you're gonna look back and be like, oh my gosh, we're suddenly ready for something where I thought it was gonna be another five years, another 10 years. So it, it really goes really fast. Mm-hmm. If you're attentive to the taking the time to the little that's in front of you and, and not Yeah.

Taking the time. Not going too fast. 

[00:39:16] Jim Jansen: Well, yeah. Right. It's, it's faster than a, than a false start. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Where you discourage and confuse. 

[00:39:22] Andy Dejka: Well, and I think building off of that, we like to lean into the principle of, uh, deep investment in a few, right. That we're not just. Constrained by circumstances to invest deeply in, in a few, in the few leaders that we have, we actually believe that that's the best and most fruitful model is in the method of Jesus.

Right. Um, how he invested himself deeply in, in the 12 and even amongst the 12, and Peter, James and John. And it was through that deep investment that they were then able to share deeply from their own experience and be more effective and fruitful mm-hmm. With others. So that's, that's the kind of model that's undergirding all of this too.

[00:39:59] Jim Jansen: Okay. I just wanna pivot a little bit here. As people are building, you know, an evangelism well, building a clear path, evangelization formation typically is not the first thing. It ends up coming a little bit later. People often start with, with a conversion moment. Whitney, talk about like, where does this step tend to fall and why I.

[00:40:22] Whitney Bradley: Yeah. So I mean, it can be your second or third step I think most often. 'cause we don't go in with an exact, like you should do the building of the clear path in this exact order. But anytime I sit down with an evangelization coordinator, their team without guiding it, it usually ends up becoming that their second step that they want to build, uh, conversion moment just comes first because you have to be making disciples in order to form them, basically.

[00:40:51] Jim Jansen: Yeah. The o the only people who want to be formed an evangelization are disciples. 

[00:40:55] Whitney Bradley: Right, right. 

[00:40:55] Jim Jansen: Or people who have their discipleship has been renewed by a recent encounter. 

[00:41:00] Whitney Bradley: Right. And so, but then you can't really wait long to send them on mission, otherwise you end up with consumer Catholics. You end up with people who will stay in that beginning of disciple stage and never quite move from there.

We usually typically jump from conversion moment to evangelization formation because we can come back and do, just like we were talking about at the beginning of this episode, you send them and then they can come back for the three years with Jesus and work out with some of the kinks in their formation, but also in being sent, uh, they'll start to learn as well.

[00:41:34] Jim Jansen: I just wanna, I wanna highlight something that we didn't, we, we maybe didn't talk about, like, just the really practical ways to discern. First off, this isn't like anybody alone. So like, if a evangelization coordinator, pastor, lay leader, you know, you're the youth minister, whatever, like, don't try this alone.

You know, if you're trying to figure out how do I form people for evangelization? Gather people together, gather your key leaders, and begin to intentionally pray as the first step of your discernment. Lord, what, like what do you want us to do? How are we supposed to form people for mission? What else? 

[00:42:11] Whitney Bradley: It would help.

But a quick story. Andy and I were just out maybe a month or two ago with Holy Apostles. They're who I was thinking of in particular when I said, it can go really fast. They had two people in the mentorship program. I was lucky enough to be their mentor. And even throughout their year and a half in the mentorship program, these two women were already bringing people alongside them into mission.

Mm-hmm. And so we sat down with that group of people. It was still small. Uh, I think four people around the table would've been five if Father Baron didn't end up having like a funeral or something. And so five people around a table and, uh, we looked at their clear path, we looked at what they already have, which is alpha and nothing else.

And then I, we made them list. All of the people that they've all been walking with mm-hmm. Over the past year and a half. And we expected it to be maybe 20. It grew really large, really fast. We put 'em on sticky notes and we prayed over them. That's how we got there. Mm-hmm. Um, and then we put those people on the clear path.

We said, where are their hearts at? Where do these people wanna be and what do they need next? And they were like, their, their hearts, they could see were all over the place, even though most of them are helping with Alpha right now. And so immediately they were like, we want to get these people into the spaces where the Lord is actually calling them, which for all of them is not alpha to be, to be leading Alpha.

And so what we need to do is we need to form them for mission. We need to help them desire, mission. And even what they're gonna start with is gonna be so low bar you guys, it's like every other month they're gonna gather them for two hours, make it as retreat like as possible. 'cause these people need to be fed and then they're gonna slip in.

Something formative, and they're gonna start with the things that, that speak to Ellie and Paula the most, the things that Ellie and Paula love, because that's what they can then teach. Mm-hmm. And it's like intercessory prayer and it's telling my story. 

[00:44:07] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, and Whitney, I, I appreciate like, what that story, I think illustrates is sometimes as you get ready, you're forming people for mission, you recognize a gap.

Sometimes it's, you know, sometimes it's a, it is a deeper encounter is necessary. Sometimes, you know, it's a formation in the content of the faith. I would say almost always, it's a need for deeper prayer. Mm-hmm. Which you could say, you know, prayer is just part of being an ordinary Christian disciple. It wouldn't necessarily be a part of evangelization formation, except for most people aren't formed in prayer and you, you really can't effectively.

Do anything or bear fruit in mission if it's not an overflow of prayer. So that ends up just don't be afraid of this. Right. When you, when you discover gaps, you're like, oh no, our people are missing. So it's like, okay, we'll just provide it. Yeah. That's why, that's why these regular gatherings are so helpful.

[00:45:00] Whitney Bradley: Yeah. They're opportunities, not obstacles. 

[00:45:01] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I, I wanna give you guys again, all of this, you know, we've been living this as, you know, as missionary disciples ourselves, you know, leading evangelization formation moments. We've been the beneficiaries of that. And then we've been coaching now for years helping parishes discern and build their evangelization formation.

I just wanna give you a chance to give some shout outs and, and tell some stories here. 

[00:45:25] Andy Dejka: Yeah. I think the first one for me is just the parishes that are running the, uh, mentorship program, starting up the, the parish based Mentorship program, St. Vincent de Paul. And, um, and St. Pat's and Elkhorn just have great teams that have, you know, people that have been through the Arch Dasan mentorship program.

Just really praying and, and discerning. Um, they've been inviting a small number of people. They've limited the number of people, uh, intentionally that they can into the program. 

[00:45:52] Jim Jansen: Right? Because these are huge suburban parishes, right? They could have had a room of a hundred if they tried, right? But they're not. 

[00:45:57] Andy Dejka: It's, you know, 10, maybe 15 max.

Um, but it's a, it's a number of people that they can actually accompany and mentor. 

[00:46:03] Jodi Phillips: That was what was on my mind too. And I think one of the reasons I'm super excited about that, among many, many reasons. One, they'll be formed for mission within their own parishes, right? Mm-hmm. So we've, uh, I'm gonna list more than one reason.

I said one reason, but that was a lie. Like we've been forming people for mission around the archdiocese for, I think the mentorship program started seven years ago. They form this incredible community, but then they go back to their parish and if they're lucky enough to have one other person from their parish in the mentorship program, they have someone to go back with.

Mm-hmm. But this is gonna be a solid community of people who have experienced something together and are living it together and it'll just continue. Yeah. They're gonna see each other every week and not just for two years. Yeah. And then the other part of that though, is they will also know their parishes clear path of discipleship really well.

[00:46:55] Whitney Bradley: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:56] Jodi Phillips: So I think about how often we have heard from alumni of the mentorship program, like I'm doing the thing, but like. Come on, perish. Um, and we are not gonna name any of them. Uh, yeah. But in these cases in particular, I, I can with great joy, say like, St. Patrick's and St. Vincent de Paul are, are doing it, you know, and these people will know it.

Mm-hmm. And they will know, as I'm accompanying people, I know where to plug them in and what to invite them to. They, and they will know the clear path that's happening in their community. So I just think that's a great benefit. Oh, it's to doing it, it's huge. It within your own context. 

[00:47:33] Andy Dejka: I think another one is just reach one more.

We have a couple parishes, St. Gerald, St. Stephen, the martyr that have been running, uh, reach one more adapted from Christ Community Church here in Omaha. And they've been, I mean, for one, they've just been so generous in opening that experience up to other parishes. Yes. Um, so that other teams can come in and, and get this experience.

But for them, it's been a moment where they have been just equipping other people in, um, just as like a Kickstarter, right? They kickstart into, into mission where they're just knocking down the obstacles that people have towards mission. And I think that's really one of the main benefits of it. There's so many opportunities, um, where people can be formed more deeply, but it's knocking down obstacles that seems to be the most important thing.

Um, and actually forming people if you never launch Right. 

[00:48:18] Whitney Bradley: If you never sent that first time, we can't do anything with you. 

[00:48:21] Andy Dejka: Right. 

[00:48:22] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It, I mean, it really is. It's not all mental. But it's, I don't know, is is it like golf? I mean, it's just, there's a lot of, it's mental.

[00:48:31] Whitney Bradley: I mean, I mean if it's, no, I mean sport.

I dunno about golf. I don't play golf. But like, the devil doesn't want us to do this, you guys. So fear is a huge tactic.

[00:48:41] Jim Jansen: Yes.

[00:48:41] Andy Dejka: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:42] Whitney Bradley: Yes. And so if we can get past those fears first by praying to the Holy Spirit, but also just by giving us some mental frameworks through something like Reach one more. I think it's powerful.

[00:48:51] Andy Dejka: It's much more fundamental than techniques.

[00:48:54] Jodi Phillips: Uhhuh.

[00:48:54] Whitney Bradley: Yes. 

[00:48:55] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It, it's habits. It's helping people think, I mean, honestly, what are the help helping people think the way Jesus thinks about like, suddenly it's like we, we, we get God's perspective on this, you know? We're like, oh man, I just dunno if I could do that.

And God's like, I mean, I'm gonna do it. I just need you. I just need you to say hello. Like, come on. Okay. This is okay. Let's have some fun with this. How do you know it's working? Evangelization formation. To me, this is the most, I feel like there's two parts of building a clear path that tend to be explosively.

Encouraging for parishes, meaning like when you start a conversion moment and people experience conversion, you are like, holy cow, he's alive and the gospel still works. And it's like really, really encouraging. Evangelization formation is similar. What are some of the effects that it has? What, how do, how do you know it's working?

[00:49:51] Whitney Bradley: Jodi's pointing at me. What do you want me to say?

[00:49:53] Jodi Phillips: I'm just gonna have you start.

[00:49:55] Whitney Bradley: Sorry. 

[00:49:57] Jodi Phillips: How do you know it's working? They look like Whitney. They act like Whitney. 

[00:50:01] Whitney Bradley: I'm like the, not the best example of a missionary disciple, but maybe I will point out. I was just telling the group about one of my, one of my beloved parishes.

I love them all, but, uh, St. Mary's is not the parish that I think from the outside most people will be like, you know, who's doing it right? Uh, but they have a pretty fleshed out, clear path and a lot of that is due to their Christ Life series. They have sharing Christ. But they're, the culture there has started to to change.

So they are noticing things. It's not like they're booming in numbers necessarily that that will happen, we hope, but not yet more. They're just noticing they have an older population.

[00:50:38] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:39] Whitney Bradley: So they're getting on a lot of elderly who are getting confirmed like in their seventies and eighties, but in particular.

[00:50:44] Jim Jansen: Wow.

[00:50:44] Whitney Bradley: The stories I've been hearing recently, and we mentioned Taylor in a different podcast, so if you haven't listened to the whole series, I'd say go and listen to it. 'cause the secretary Taylor that we bring up in a different one is an is is an example of a fruit of coming out of this Christ Life series, but my evangelization coordinator, Rachel, is having an extraordinarily easy time getting volunteers for anything she wants to do.

[00:51:09] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:10] Whitney Bradley: And if you're jealous, you should be like, this is not normal, the normal parish experience that she just has to reach out. I mean, her parish council went from being an obstacle to being so overzealous. And maybe I've already told the story that they tried to get rid of the finance council 'cause it wasn't on the clear path.

[00:51:31] Jim Jansen: Not an endorsed

[00:51:32] Whitney Bradley: No.

[00:51:32] Jim Jansen: You have to have a finance council.

[00:51:33] Whitney Bradley: Don't do you have to have one, but like, that's a fruit if you can see it.

[00:51:38] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:51:39] Whitney Bradley: You know, you step back and see it.

[00:51:39] Jim Jansen: They were, they were enthusiastic and bought in about evangelization and making their parish simple, so nothing distracted from why they really existed.

[00:51:48] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. Can I, I just wanna name some of the things that like, I think are clear in that story. Like, some of the fruits you're gonna see is one, like more people are gonna be coming forward for the sacraments. Yes. And in every stage you're gonna see more people in Christian initiation, more baptisms, both adult and infants.

You're gonna see more people bringing their children forward. You're gonna hear stories of lives changed and instead of the stories of the immediate conversion mm-hmm. Just because they, they came through conversion moment. It's gonna be a conversion moment, a story of a life change. And they'll be like, oh, and this person walked with me.

I can think of one. Mm-hmm. At Steven, the martyr that's really profound. I, um, that it stands out to me of like. Oh yeah, that person. 

[00:52:25] Whitney Bradley: Second and third generation. 

[00:52:26] Jodi Phillips: Yeah, second and third generation. And you can see like how they walked with them and you're gonna hear like. Missionary disciples are just gonna multiply and suddenly you're gonna have all these resources that you didn't have before.

And I'm meaning people as resources, which bear with me in that. But I mean like you will have people when you need them. You're gonna have other people to accompany people. Like, oh, I have this person that just showed up. On May 1st, and they wanna be baptized. And I need someone to accompany them either until our class starts or for the next year.

However you're, however you're running Christian initiation. Oh, but you know what? I have people who can walk with them. Right. Yeah, that's a problem. 

[00:53:05] Jim Jansen: Actually have people who can do that. 

[00:53:05] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. That's not a problem for me. 

[00:53:07] Whitney Bradley: And so even when your ministries aren't ready to be reformed, 'cause you don't have the time or capacity.

[00:53:12] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. But you have the people.

[00:53:13] Whitney Bradley: You have, you have the people. You have the people. And also like the dreams that, like, so back to Rachel, she's been dreaming about relational outreach for a couple of years now, and all of a sudden she's got two people who are starting to do it for her. They're like, we can't wait.

We're gonna host a barbecue. And she's like, it's not gonna be perfect. And they're like.

[00:53:29] Jodi Phillips: But it's gonna happen.

[00:53:30] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:30] Whitney Bradley: It's gonna happen. 

[00:53:31] Jodi Phillips: And it'll grow because people will be inviting their friends. And then I think like. Your ministries will just get easier to run. So you think about like, like that one random ministry that like drives you a little crazy.

Well, interestingly enough, all those leaders have been coming to um mm-hmm. To called and gifted and suddenly it's changing. And it's not driving you crazy anymore. Right. Yeah. Because it's aligning. 

[00:53:55] Jim Jansen: There's a prayerfulness, there's a fruitfulness. Yeah. There's a maturity to the leaders. 

[00:53:59] Whitney Bradley: They have their own ideas about how to change their ministry and you're like, oh, great, because I've been hoping for that.

[00:54:04] Jim Jansen: Okay. But, but, but. 

[00:54:05] Jodi Phillips: But, and then I think to that last point, like creativity abounds, right? Yes. So like. 

[00:54:10] Jim Jansen: Which, which is, which is the big, but 'cause there's a dark side of that. There's a dark side. 

[00:54:14] Jodi Phillips: You're gonna have new ideas and apostolates. Because people are gonna be feeling very, very called to their particular gifts and their charisms, which might not always be within the life of the parish, but they're gonna be feeling called.

And sometimes we're gonna have to shift from constant recruitment volunteers to shepherd. Mm-hmm. And you know, I think of the times when I've gone into my parish and suddenly there's the same holy card in every single pew, and it's just like a little bit misdirected, zil, you know, where it's been duct taped somewhere.

Um, and it is because someone is so passionate and they're like, everyone needs to hear about this, and they're not wrong. But perhaps we can help steer their methodology a little bit. 

[00:54:57] Jim Jansen: And it does seem like, I was like, oh, that's a great, that's the place that you would want to be as a parish leader, as a pastor.

Yeah. Pastoring people that are fruitful or want to be fruitful. 

[00:55:09] Whitney Bradley: Want to be. 

[00:55:09] Jim Jansen: But in real life it might, it's actually kind of annoying sometimes. 

[00:55:12] Whitney Bradley: Yeah. Yeah. To make even more explicit, what Jodi is saying is, your brand new baby missionary disciples are gonna make mistakes and they're gonna make

[00:55:21] Jodi Phillips: so many messes

[00:55:22] Whitney Bradley: messes for you. So when she says shepherding, it might be redirecting them like you would a toddler and cleaning up their mess. 

[00:55:29] Jim Jansen: Yeah. There's no easy way to say this, but there are some of us, I mean, me, you know, in my, in my worst moments, I never made mistakes. Worst. No, I'm not gonna talk about mistakes. I, it's gonna get darker, Jodi.

I mean, there are times where I would rather be alone. I. Then go through the effort to help others grow and mature. There are times that I would rather have things be neat and clean than have the messiness that is children, right? That is that the fruitfulness that is children. But sometimes I wanna sacrifice, I mean, I don't like admitting this, but I'd ra I just want it to be neat and clean and quiet and easy rather than fruitful and young and messy.

[00:56:14] Whitney Bradley: The mess is a sign of fruitfulness. 

[00:56:17] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, it, it's like, you know, people, most people have heard that mantra, right? If your church isn't crying, it's dying. Also, if your church is every, if everything is perfectly in line and perfectly clean and neat and perfectly mature and never false, started and never like, like just zeal, gone a little bit.

Aw, rye. Then, then you might, then you might be pastoring dead people, right? 

[00:56:41] Whitney Bradley: I mean, white-washed sepulcurs. 

[00:56:42] Andy Dejka: And if, if everyone looks like you, talks like you, right? Thinks like you, you're gonna, when you start evangelizing, you're gonna have a whole, a whole bunch of people that suddenly feel like they belong and they're welcome in your parish, but they don't do things the same way that you do. Right?

[00:56:57] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it incredible? 

[00:56:59] Andy Dejka: It is incredible, right? And, but it's, it, it creates its own mess that we need to respond to and equip our people to be able to respond to not, right? 

[00:57:05] Jim Jansen: This is acts to the apostles suddenly like, oh crap, who invited the Greeks? You know, all of a time, all of a sudden the Gentiles are here.

[00:57:12] Whitney Bradley: Do they have to get circumcised? Or like. 

[00:57:16] Jim Jansen: That's a different, that's a different conversation, but there's like, the diversity creates a pastoral headache, the immature zeal. Creates a pastoral headache. And I think if we're just like, if people are like, what the heck are they talking about? The point is it's worth it for fruitfulness.

The messiness is worth it, and this is where you wanna be as a, as a pastor or as a parish leader. You wanna be in this space, even though it's maybe not as familiar as the, the task of constantly recruiting people. Okay. We've covered a lot of ground. Our time has totally flown. Is there anything big that we missed?

Any kind of final words of encouragement or tips here? 

[00:57:59] Jodi Phillips: I have, I have two things I wanna just mention. The first is one, like if you are desiring to be on mission, and there's two things I I wanna just encourage and, and exhort you is one, to just be a person of prayer. St. Bernard, he has this beautiful. I will misquote it, but he talks about us being a reservoir.

Mm-hmm. Rather than a channel. Right. So a channel just kind of grace, just kind of rushes right through, but a reservoir it fills. Mm-hmm. And then the overflow comes out. I would just encourage you to continue being a reservoir, like spending, uh, time with the Lord and letting him love you first, and then the overflow of that love to be able to share with other people.

And the second is I, we talked a lot about being on mission, on teams, and I would suspect that we have some people who are listening who feel alone. 

[00:58:53] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:58:53] Jodi Phillips: And I was just recalling some years where I felt alone in mission, like never here, but in my own maybe personal apostate and sometimes in my parish.

So I just wanted to maybe speak to that a little bit or just, I guess really just encourage you first to find your comfort in the Lord. And to wait on him in that.

[00:59:15] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:59:15] Whitney Bradley: He sees you. 

[00:59:16] Jodi Phillips: Yeah. He sees you in that he is with you in that. Um, he sees your heart for mission. He's, and he's not gonna say like, don't start yet.

Um, like, so to start and, and wait on him, because I think he will provide for that. I've been, like, in the last couple of years, I've been overwhelmed by the Lord's generosity in answering a prayer that I had for probably half a decade. And so just like, just wait on that. 

[00:59:40] Jim Jansen: Well, and I might add sometimes it is our efforts to form others as missionaries.

That's how the Lord provides the companions. We need Paul and Timothy. Right, right. So Paul and St. Timothy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Timothy is both a product of Paul's evangelistic work and then, and his dearest companion, comfort and then companion. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:00:00] Whitney Bradley: I also wanna add in that space of prayer. Jim, you hit it on earlier in this episode, but calling the Holy Spirit, he is your your guide, your light, your dearest companion on this journey. And, um, we can't do it without him. 

[01:00:16] Andy Dejka: I would add, um.

[01:00:17] Jim Jansen: Nobody wants to follow that.

[01:00:20] Jodi Phillips: Andy does. 

[01:00:20] Whitney Bradley: Sorry, Andy. 

[01:00:21] Andy Dejka: No, no. I, I would just add that the one thing that our parishes most desperately need is not more money or better music or more programs, right.

But more leaders that are equipped for mission. And so if we have leaders who are, um, just caught up in other things, but they actually are equipped, they actually know how to mentor. Mm. We need to encourage them to say no to some other things so they can be more free. To mentor right people. Sometimes they're running a dozen different ministries at the parish, but if we can just support them in mentoring people, that's gonna bear a lot of fruit in our parishes.

[01:00:55] Jodi Phillips: Andy, can you drop your mic? 

[01:00:58] Andy Dejka: I guess we're done now. 

[01:01:00] Jim Jansen: No, no. Don't. That's expensive. That's that's not our money. Yes. Amen. Amen. Yeah. Thank you Andy, that that is the shortage, right? Missionary leaders. Missionary disciples. That's the real shortage. I mean, I'll, I'll just, this is super practical, but we've talked many, many times just about the practical tool of the discernment rosary, just as a way to gather a community, a, a team of people to listen to the Lord.

You just present your, your questions to Jesus through Mary, so you meditate on the question on your heart. You know, Lord, who have you given us for, for this evangelization formation? I. Ministry, Lord, what, you know, what, what materials should we use? How should we gather people? Et cetera, et cetera. You bring those questions with the discernment rosary, check it.

I mean, just do a search. We've got so many different episodes where we talk about a discernment rosary. It's a great tool, and that could be really helpful. It just practically bringing a team together to discern your evangelization formation step. Whitney, thank you for being here. Andy, Jodi, thank you.

Thanks, guys. You're welcome. Welcome. It's a pleasure. All right, everybody. You know somebody who needs to hear this conversation, so when, uh, you are at a place, you can share it out. Take a moment. Let the Lord show you who and share it out with them. Tell 'em they're supposed to listen to it. All right.

Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip omaha org. God bless and see you next time.