[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to the Quip Cast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. Designed to help leaders to transform their cultures, to embody the pastoral vision, to be one church encountering Jesus, equipping disciples, and living mercy. 

[00:00:17] Jim Jansen: Alright everybody, welcome to the Quip Cast. My name is Jim Jansen. Uh, I am here today with my faithful and regular trusted co-host, uh, father Jeff Lore from Midtown Omaha.

Well, he's not, he's not from Midtown Omaha, but he's, he's in Midtown Omaha. Father, how you doing today? 

[00:00:37] Fr. Lorig: Broadcasting live from Midtown Omaha. 

[00:00:39] Jim Jansen: That's great. Yeah. Well, you get your DJ voice on. That's nice. That's good. Special, special occasion. So excited. Father, we've got, uh, we've got a guest here. We've, we, gosh, we've been planning getting together, uh, this podcast for quite a while.

We stumbled across an article, uh, in Notre Dame's Church Life Magazine. Which we loved. Uh, really? And, and, uh, I had had a number of friends that had known, uh, Peter from, uh, evangelical Catholic, uh, Peter. We didn't, we didn't know each other, but when we stumbled across that article, I had a friend, uh, that sent it to me.

Little shout out to Adam Ybarra when he sent me that article. I'm like, oh my gosh. We have got to have Peter on the show. So Peter and Drastic welcome. How you doing? Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. Alright, so Peter, we, we always wanna start out here just giving any, any guests an opportunity just to tell a little bit of their story.

So like, who, who are you, tell us about your faith journey. When did you first encounter Jesus? 

[00:01:37] Peter: Yeah, sure. So I was born and raised in Manitowoc, Wisconsin. Little little town in the, uh, kind of northeast Wisconsin, about a half hour from Green Bay, uh, right on Lake Michigan. I was born and raised Catholic.

I'm the youngest of five. My dad was a deacon. My mom, uh, stayed at home, but also did like the CCD coordinator thing for a while. Went to Catholic schools K through 12, and I would say my, my encounter with Jesus was a, a progressive encounter through my whole c child childhood. I would say when I really encountered him, kind of two, two.

Um, moments, or I would say time periods in my life stand out the most. First my freshman year of college, my freshman year of college, I, I didn't quite get into the party scene, and I spent a lot of Friday and Saturday nights going for walks. And in those, uh, in those times, um, I was very lonely and I was, I would start thinking about like, what am I doing with my life?

What, what am I, what I, what do I want to do? And, and, um, I started to hear the Lord, uh, speak to me. And those, those Friday and Saturday evenings going for long lonely walks, um, were, were really my first kind of encounter with like mental prayer. And so the Lord was really speaking to me in and through there.

[00:03:05] Jim Jansen: That's fantastic. I mean, you, you know, you know, I have a, a college ministry background and it's like, that's just really efficient. Like you cut out like, you know, like. All the people who were in the party scene, they would do that. And then, you know, sobering up the next, the next day they'd be like, going for a walk.

Like, I'm still really lonely. So you just, same thing, only really efficient. Yeah. I love that story. 

[00:03:27] Peter: I guess. But then here's where the inefficiency starts. Um, the next couple years I did kinda get into the party scene, although, okay though not, not, not like, I wasn't like, you know, strewn out in the gutters or anything like that.

I, I was, the, the lord protected me from a lot of bad stuff. Um, but a couple years later, um, I really went through another conversion in my life, kind of marked by an intellectual conversion. A lot of questions from, you know, philosophy classes I was taking in college and evangelical friends. Um, and so I started, uh, inquiring about my faith and had a, I would say an intellectual conversion that was followed by a moral conversion when I started realizing.

I was not living in accordance with the truth. And then I had a spiritual conversion where I realized that the, the living morally, um, is too hard. So I started, so I started praying and, um, throughout that whole period, um, was just a progressive encounter, uh, with our Lord more and more. 

[00:04:33] Jim Jansen: Gosh, that's awesome.

I can, I can relate. I had a, a similar journey where I had the gift of kind of an intellectual conversion of sorts at first. It it in my college years and, and it, yeah, I remember very distinctly kind of like, when it really started to make sense to me, you know, the, the horror that that was gonna change my weekend plans and starting to, starting to like the, the consequences of, of what I was beginning to, to believe and, and realize.

Uh, so Peter, we wanted to, um, I, I know you work for an organization called Evangelical Catholic. Just to set a little bit more context before we dive in here, like, tell us about Evangelical Catholic. 

[00:05:09] Peter: Yeah, so the Evangelical Catholic is a nonprofit. We're based in Madison, Wisconsin. Um, though we have people who live all over the place.

Uh, and what we do is we work, we partner with ministries, we partner with parishes mostly also campus ministries, military bases, and also dioceses. And we work with the ministry staff. We train them, we form them and train them to form the lay faithful for apostolate. So we give them a vision for that. We give them a process for doing that, and then we give them, you could say, like technical skills to do that as well.

[00:05:43] Jim Jansen: How does that unfold? Do you, do you do like seminars, webinars, you come in, how, just a little bit of like, how does that, how does that training unfold? 

[00:05:52] Peter: Sure when we contract with a ministry that that partnership will last at least a year. Mm-hmm. And, um, that's to begin with. We have different ways, different you could say, um, um, partnership levels that we have with ministries.

And when they partner with us, they get. Access to an online system that's called Reach more. Think of that as like an online curriculum that has different courses in it, that, that, that, um, form people in different aspects of a mission process, a mission formation process. In addition to having access to that system, they get personalized coaching or consulting from one of us.

And so the system has all the best practices and principles, but then each community is, is distinct and unique. And so we have to help them, uh, customize it to the peculiar situation of, of who they are and where they are in their community. And so it's, it's remote. We've been doing this through Zoom before Zoom was cool.

Uh, and uh, that's great. And we also have different levels of partnership where we do onsite visits as well. Where we'll go and do Okay. Like, you know, impact events for the entire parish. And we work with the parish staff an intense, you know, day long, um, you know, training. 

[00:07:08] Jim Jansen: Yes. So you're in there. This is a commitment.

You're rolling up your sleeves, you're really, you're really there. 

[00:07:14] Peter: Yeah. Most of the parishes and campuses that we work with, um, we partner with them for multiple years. 'cause there's a learning curve. And then once you kind of learn the system or you learn the process, there's always, there's always a temptation for mission drift.

There's, 'cause it's hard. What we form and train parishes, ministries to do is very, very, it's very simple. Mm-hmm. It's very hard. Right. And so there's a tendency to drift. So we gotta help keep them accountable. 

[00:07:41] Jim Jansen: Okay. Why Peter, why is it hard? I, I think I know what you're gonna say here, but it, it, I agree. I love the way you said that.

It's like, you know what principles of evangelization, the skills of evangelization, it's not like they're hard skills. I. You know, it's not rocket science, but it's hard. Like where, where, where's the hard come from? Like, why is it hard? 

[00:08:00] Peter: Because we're dealing with, with people, you know. 

[00:08:03] Jim Jansen: Doesn't that, don't you hate that? I'm just kidding. 

[00:08:06] Peter: I hate people. No, I love people. Um, and, and for that reason, because we, uh, we love people. Um, we, we have to, we have to dig in and it's, it's very arduous. So, you know, we don't just give a parish a program. There's, we don't do a plug and play. Um, there's, there's place for that if you know how to use it.

Um, but there's this, there's this cool line in, um, I think it's the decree in the apostolate of the lady that says that the individual apostolate is the basic foundation and basis of all other forms of apostolate. If you can't get that right, you're not gonna get anything, right? No matter how many awesome programs you have, no matter how many book studies and things like that, because programs don't evangelize people, people evangelize people.

And so what we're doing is we're, we're, it, it's hard because. There's, there's always like a chase element to it. You're cha, you're chasing people down. You're building people up. You're shepherding people, people, you know, concupiscence is real and we, everyone has a tendency to drift and they, they need that, that constant encouragement, uh, at every level.

So, um, so that, that, and then you're, you're doing multiple things at multiple levels. You're, at first, you're just building the beginnings of this movement at a parish. But then as you, as you. Move on. You're layering different aspects of the movement on top of each other. So you're doing multiple things at a time.

Mm-hmm. So it's very, very difficult. And you're always, you're always expanding your circle of influence at a parish. As a, as a parish minister, you're, you're, um, expanding your circle of influence, uh, which means that you're dealing with capacity issues and it's, this, it just, it gets really difficult over time.

[00:09:50] Fr. Lorig: Mm. Peter, you've used the, the word apostolate quite a bit, uh, already, and it's certainly part of our church documents, but is not part of our regular language. Uh, when I speak to my parish staff about an apostolate or I speak to my parish council about apostolate, uh, I usually just have to say, well, it's like a ministry.

So. Mm-hmm. I like, uh, I give up really quickly and I like, it's ministry. It's like your per personal ministry or I it is some sort of ministry that you do in the parish. And, and can you, can you just maybe dive into that a little bit? Sure. Sure. 

[00:10:20] Peter: So, so first of all, it's a mystery, right? And so, um, a, a mystery is inexhaustible and there's, you know, a million, billion different nuances that we could, that we could, um, include here.

And there's exceptions and there's all those things. But for the sake of what we're doing here today, like, we're gonna keep it simple. So if I were to like, uh, define apostolate, apostolate is really the radiation of personal holiness that, uh, that's connected, that flows from baptism and confirmation. So it's the type of evangelization that's proper to the laity, whereas ministry is the radiation of holiness.

Flows from holy orders. It's connected to, it's connected ministry, is connected to holy orders. Um, again, there's it, it's fluid language. Um, but if, if you were to do a word search okay, on the Vatican website, and you were to search the word ministry, and then you were to search the word apostolate, you would find that there's, that, that, that distinction is pretty clear.

In fact, oftentimes in the church documents, you will see the, a word sacred in front of ministry. So sacred ministry referring back to holy orders. So there's a qualifier to de to, to delineate or to highlight the fact that this flows from, from holy orders. So that's in a nutshell, you know, apostolate in the catechism says that it's, you know, any, any and all activity that's aimed at building up the kingdom of God that that's apostolate.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:54] Jim Jansen: Can you give some examples? Just kinda like make the, just like real tangible, just in like people's lives. Like what does, what does it, what does apostolate look like? Which I mean, given what you just said, any and all like, so like that could be, we could be here all day with examples, but just like a couple of examples that maybe kind of illustrate this.

[00:12:12] Peter: Sure, sure. Would it help for me also to give some examples of like ministries as well? Sure, yeah. Yeah, that'd be great. Great. So, um, let's start with ministry. 'cause that's, that I think is, uh, maybe a little bit more concrete, uh, and, and easy for us to imagine. So, ministry, as I said, flows from orders. Um, and basically lay ministry is, is holding, holding any ecclesiastical office.

Okay. So in other words, you know, anytime a layperson is employed by a parish or a diocese, you know, that is some aspect of the pastor's or the bishop's ministry that he has delegated to a layperson. 'cause of their availability, their expertise, things like that. So, so, so ministry, lay ministry is a delegated thing that comes from a structure of the church.

[00:13:03] Jim Jansen: Okay? Right. So despite the fact that they're a layperson and not ordained to holy orders, they're serving in a ministry capacity because they're working right. Directly commissioned by the bishop or the pastor. 

[00:13:15] Peter: Right. It could be an employee position, or it could be a volunteer position, it could be, you know, um, extraordinary ministers of holy Communion.

You know, any, anytime someone does something at the mass, right? Like a, like a, like a, you know, song leading thing. That's, that's like. 

[00:13:29] Jim Jansen: A inner server, ministry, lector, yeah. 

[00:13:32] Peter: Volunteering for a parish or a diocesan program that is, you could say, managed by the parish. Okay. The parish staff or the pastor. It's like a ministry.

Okay. Okay. So apostolate examples of apostolate. So this is, this is kind of fun. So first of all. Anything and everything ought to be apostolate. Okay, so this is really important for us to understand. Oftentimes we think that apostolate is like some, like a, like a project that you do, and it can be that, and at times it takes that form.

But the reality is that holiness and apostolate are only conceptually distinct. So we distinguish them conceptually in our mind so that we can think about them and talk about them. And because discipleship is multi-dimensional, our lives are mul multi-dimensional. We distinguish these things conceptually so that we can provide formation that's specific to those things.

So in other words, holiness or apostolate is the radiation of personal holiness. Just as we can conceptually distinguish between Jesus's identity and his mission, you can't separate the two. He is word. That's his identity and that's his mission. Okay. Just as we can conceptually distinguish between, you could say like the theological trinity.

The Trinity as it exists in itself, and the economic trinity, how the Trinity acts upon creation. Right, right. But the reality is that it's one. Right. Well, holiness and apostolate is, is really one. This is based on our divine affiliation. The way that we participate in the mystery of God. Evangelization is being an instrument of God's presence and action in the world.

Apostolate is the same thing as it pertains to the laity. There's this mystical identification with Jesus such that everything I do, everything I am is the radiation of holiness. Apostolate exists to the extent that holiness does. So give a couple examples. When you are praying a rosary for a friend, is that holiness or apostolate?

Yes. Yes. Hey, hey. You got it? When you're offering mass for someone, is that holiness or apostolate? Yes. When you are working on, um, being more cheerful. At work, is that holiness or apostolate? When you are working on developing a specific virtue, is that holiness or apostolate? All of these things. So everything ought to be apostolate when we're working on stopping gossiping, that's in nature.

Now that being said, apostolate. Ought to take more intentional and organized, uh, a more intentional and organized form from time to time. Mm-hmm. Just like there's times when we have to be much more intentional about like, improving our prayer or much more intentional about improving some virtue. Well, sometimes we have to be much more intentional about like, dealing with other people and, and spreading the gospel to other people and to other things.

So examples of organized and intentional forms of Apostle would be like hosting a small group or a Bible study in your home, any of the corporal or spiritual works of mercy done, like in an organized way. We should be doing those all the time in, in an unorganized way. 

[00:17:09] Jim Jansen: Right. 

[00:17:09] Peter: But anytime we're doing those things and being really intentional about something, that's an, that's apostle.

We can do it individually or as a group. There's other forms of corporate apostle, like the evangelical Catholic, you could say is like a corporate apostolate. We're, we're not a ministry. Uh, we don't, we're not tied to a diocese or an apostolate that has church approval. So apostolate is always done, even though it might not be connected to an ecclesiastical structure, it always has to be ecclesial in nature.

It always flows from the heart of the church, though it should, it ought to take on very distinct forms in people's lives. People should do their own thing, and their own thing should always flow from the heart of the church, but be very particular to, to their life. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:56] Jim Jansen: Yeah. So help us, like, why does this matter, you know, thinking about like, okay, are listeners here good folk from Nebraska?

Like, why does this, yeah, why, why does this matter? I don't think anybody listening is saying like, I don't believe you. That's not the right distinction, but like, what's the significance of, of that distinction? 

[00:18:16] Peter: So what, right. Just semantics, right? Well, semantics are important. Otherwise we wouldn't have dictionaries.

Uh, um, all those, all those poor people at Webster would be out of a job. That's right. Um, well, you know, words are connected to concepts which are connected to reality. If we have a misunderstanding of certain words, it's gonna, it's gonna affect how we think about and therefore deal with reality. Okay. 

So if we don't understand well, and apply well, the distinction between ministry and apostolate, a number of things are gonna happen.

And I'll just touch on a couple because, you know, a million, billion things could happen. Right. Um, first of all, one of the things that's likely to happen is that. Church workers, if everything is a ministry, if everything is a ministry, church workers, professional church workers and pastors will be too focused on building up Add intra ministries.

Okay? Um, building quasi professional church ministries. They're gonna be, they're gonna be obsessed with multiplying ministries, multiplying volunteers that serve the parish, that serve like, like church folk. Parish life is gonna be built up, um, as kind of like this, this kind of anti chamber to heaven.

This, this place where, um, where you, where you go if you want to be a good Catholic, like a club, right? A club. And, um, church workers will inevitably, if this happens as this, as it goes in this direction, church workers will inevitably become very frustrated because that's sets up a false opposition between.

Between faith, life and everyday life. If you wanna be a good Catholic, you get involved in church activities, you have to choose between baseball and soccer or a parish activity. And um, what will happen is some people who have a conversion experience and they don't understand that their apostolate is in the middle of the world, they will get drawn into church life such that they will long to leave their secular life.

Other people will see the disconnect and church life will become faith, life will become irrelevant, and they will drift away completely. They won't see the relevance. Um, so in short, you know, we could, we could dive into to this more, but in short, if we don't do well in distinguishing between ministry and apostolate, the parish, um, and not the world.

Become the setting par excellence of the Christian life. And this will push people away because it grinds against the secular character of the laity. 

[00:21:14] Jim Jansen: And I would add the mission of the church to world. Yes. To the neighborhood. You know, if, if you get it, I mean, we already have a name for those organizations that are designed to care for and serve their members only.

They're called country clubs. Um, but that's not, that's not what churches are for. Churches. Churches are for Yeah. We, I mean, we're right. We're, we're supposed to embody the savior who came to seek and save the lost, who was in his entirety a gift for others. So, um. I mean bad. I don't know how many of the listeners, but like bad news, um, it's more than a hypothetical risk.

I think that's happening, uh, already. Um, I mean, I don't know, father, what's your ex, what, what your experience is as, as a pastor seeing it. But like, I mean, I feel like you're talking about church life in, in America today. You know, both, both different examples of, of extremes. And I feel like that's what Pope Francis has been.

He uses the word kind of like, you know, ecclesial, introversion, actually I think that was John Paul ii. You know, Francis I think likes to use self-referential. Um, but like, gosh, that seems to be where, where we're stuck. This is more than just a theo theoretical trap. This seems to be, I mean, this is, this seems to be right at heart of some of our frustration and experience.

Is there a way out, is there a hope here? 

[00:22:40] Fr. Lorig: It reminds me of something that Jen Moser, our coworker in the office there often says is the, the real vocation crisis that we experience today is the vocation of the laity. Um, where we just so, we so misunderstand it. And, uh, but I think in part, uh, when, when LA don't un do not understand their role, then often priests get really confused as well.

So we, we sort of forget what we're supposed to be doing. And so then there's this kind of a bland idea of what it means to be church, what it means to be a priest, what it means to be an apostolate, and it's not invigorating it at all. So we have these conversations constantly about, uh, well father, this is my ministry and you know, this is what I do and, and it's for the church.

And, and, but that. There's no other apostolate beyond, beyond that. It's just, you know, I'm on this committee and this is what I do for the church. And, uh, so you love it when, when people, you know, of course you love it as a pastor if somebody volunteers or something, but you love it when you hear about them doing something without me knowing about it.

You love it when they, when they're doing their own small group. You love it when they're like, oh yeah, I just got a, a group of neighbors together and we decided to do something for a neighbor who was struggling with this. They were living their holiness and their mission together, and it wasn't organized by the parish.

Hopefully the parish had something to do it because hopefully they're my people in the sense of like, they're the, hopefully I inspired them and equipped them to be able to do that. Um, but, but often I, I just think sometimes people limit themselves in what they can do for the kingdom by just volunteering for the parish.

And quite frankly, frankly, we don't even have that. I. There's not that a lot, lot of fun stuff to do. I mean, if you're gonna help sell, uh, the script, you know, the hope we got all that, you're gonna, like, that's my ministry. Okay, it's your ministry and you're, you're helping me. But like, that's not like, what else are you doing for the Lord?

You know, what are, what are you doing for the kingdom? Like, I just think it's kind of a blah, boring, sort of like, if you're just gonna volunteer at the fish fry, that's, that's not gonna cut it for the kingdom. 

[00:24:40] Peter: You know? Father, I think you're, you're touching on something that's like very deeply true. The, the, the idea that all that, like, that kinda stuff sounds kind of boring because I, I, the reality is that the church speaks of the vocation of the laity as having a secular character.

That's what specifies the lay faithful, okay? Our secular character. That means that we seek the kingdom of God, find the kingdom of God, and build the kingdom of God in the middle of the world. And so, in other words, the world is not only the, the setting of our holiness, of our relationship with God, but it's the means of it.

It's not the cause of it. Grace is the cause of it. But as, as lay Catholics, we rightly feel a gravitational pull toward secular interests, secular hobbies, secular work, because that's where God is calling us to. And a lot of churchy stuff mm-hmm. Is gonna kind of feel boring because. That's not our vocation for the vast majority of Catholics.

Now, when I say churchy stuff, I don't mean like prayer. I don't mean sacraments. I don't mean like, you know, Jesus is the love of our life, and so we should be deeply interested in his mysteries and those things, but he wants us to, to live and complete those mysteries in our secular life. Um, and the vast majority of us are not called to live and complete those, those ministries in what's commonly understood as like parish life.

Uh, many people try to imitate Jesus in his public ministry, his preaching, teaching, healing, if you called to do that. Um, or they, they, they feel what they think is a call to that because that's what we think of when we think of Jesus. But we forget that Jesus was just as divine when he was a carpenter and he spent the vast majority of his adult life.

As a carpenter, and I would also note probably a businessman after Joseph died, he had to take off. You know, he had to, he had to take over the business. And I can only imagine that Jesus was perfect God and perfect man, that as a businessman and as, and as a, a, a carpenter, he probably got excited about new tools and he probably, when he walked through the streets of wherever he lived, Nazareth or wherever, uh, he, his eye would catch like doors and window frames and buildings and you'd probably daydream about like better ways of doing it.

And you'd probably get excited about new business practices and new ways to do this and that because, because that was his vocation at that time. And we have to enter into that hidden life and complete and live those. Those mysteries in our life. So the financial advisor, the teacher, the doctor, the police officer, the stay-at-home mom, those things are the very stuff, the very hinge of their holiness that they need to do with with human excellence and their work well done will be their bait as fishers of men.

That will be. Their apostolate and then their friendships will be their apostolate. 

[00:28:09] Jim Jansen: All of those things. You know, Peter, you're, you're presenting a vision here. When you talk about it, it sounds ordinary, but this is, this is kind of revolutionary because the notion of what it means to be a good cath, like, and a good parishioner, like all of that is so, it's so intertwined with, you know, volunteering for the festival and coordinating the craft fair and selling script and all of, all of these things.

So that oftentimes people who I think, you know, they've had a real encounter with the Lord, they desire to serve him. You know, they, they say yes to volunteer in a moment of weakness, and now all of a sudden they're so busy doing. Churchy things, ministry, that personal holiness fades to the background. I don't really have time for prayer.

My family FaceTime fades. I I certainly don't have any time to get to know my neighbors. I certainly don't have any time to develop relationship or to let you know, to let God's love within me overflow to anyone, you know, spiritually or materially needy around me. And that's kind of be, yeah, that's kind of become an unhealthy normal.

I, I wanna quote you back to yourself here. 'cause in the article there's this line you say, said the parish should provide the minimum amount of necessary ministry structure in order to promote the greatest degree of personal apostolic initiative. Now I think that's a, that's a kind of a principle or an anecdote if we will, that can I.

Help us kind of get our way out of this, but need you to unpack that for a little bit. Like what do you, what do you mean by that, that sentence? 

[00:29:50] Peter: Sure. So really what I'm drawing on here is the church's social doctrine, the principle of subsidiarity. And, you know, the church is a theological society and the church therefore really needs to kinda embody and live her own social doctrine.

And, you know, the, the church's governance, okay, that's the structures of the church. The governance of the church needs to live this principle of sub subsidiarity as well as possible, which basically says that issues are best dealt with by those who are closest to them, right? And, and institutions of like a higher order, um, have the obligation to develop those of a lower order to take care of their sphere of influence.

So what I'm not advocating here is. A sort of like minimalism, like, well, we're gonna do the sacraments and that's it. Everyone go and feed yourself. Figure it out. Nope, that's not, that's not at all. What I'm advocating against is an unnecessary multiplication of ministries and structures and layers. I would say that the primary focus of parish ministry, in addition to the sacraments, ought to be the building, sending and shepherding of the lay faithful in their apostolate.

[00:31:14] Jim Jansen: Okay. Say, say that again. 'cause that, that's awesome. That's gold. 

[00:31:18] Peter: Okay. So the primary focus, the primary ministry of a parish, in addition to the sacraments, ought to be the building, sending and shepherding the. The lay faithful in their apostolate. And now mind you, when I say apostolate, that implies holiness.

[00:31:40] Jim Jansen: Right, the shepherding, the building, the equipping part of it. The essential, or an essential part of that is the equipping for holiness and the building. And holiness, and holiness. All of that. 

[00:31:49] Peter: Holiness and apostolate are the same, right? The, the, the apostolate is the radiation of holiness. But just like anything else, you, people need guidance.

They need encouragement specifically in that, in, in that, um, person to person, relational apostolic dimension of their lives of holiness. 

[00:32:08] Jim Jansen: Okay, so what does that look like? Yeah, because what you describe is kind of alien to our experience. I mean, it, it, it's not totally unheard of, but it happens so rarely and so isolated that I.

When you like, like the primary work of the parish is equipping people for personal apostle. Like, what does that, what, what, what does that tangibly look like? Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:37] Peter: So I think it looks like, um, you find half dozen to a dozen of your most faithful available and teachable parishioners, those get. 

[00:32:48] Jim Jansen: In the sell script. Mm-hmm. No, no. 

[00:32:51] Fr. Lorig: Seven sell script. 

[00:32:52] Peter: Exactly. 

[00:32:54] Jim Jansen: We wanna have the festival even bigger this year. 

[00:32:56] Peter: Yeah. 

[00:32:56] Jim Jansen: Sorry. Okay. Go ahead. Sorry. Little sin coming out there. Go ahead. 

[00:32:59] Peter: You've, you find half dozen or dozen of your most faithful available and teachable parishioners and, um, you gather them together in a community of disciples and you walk with them for a period of time and you, and, and you, and you.

Form them into a community of disciple makers. You give them apostolic formation, they probably have a good amount of discipleship formation already, if these are your most faithful available and teachable parishioners, and sometimes they're hard to find because oftentimes we don't know who they are because they don't come to a whole lot of parish programs.

Sometimes they do, but oftentimes, the really holy ones don't because they don't have time for it, because it's not relevant for them. Oftentimes, 

[00:33:41] Jim Jansen: the most faithful and available parishioners who are ready for apostolate to go on mission into the world, into the neighborhood and their families, they're not, they're not hanging out at the parish.

They're not currently organizing these things because they've, this is my words, not yours, but they, they've already o, they're already kind of obeying the spirit. And they're, they're already in the secular realm and what parishes typically offer is ministry, and they're responding to their call to apostolate.

So the only way to, to, to gather and begin to serve them is to offer them formation for that apostolate. Yes. And you're saying, and then they'll come 'cause that's what they want and need. 

[00:34:27] Peter: Yes. So you have to, you have to do some discernment and you have to do some networking and meeting of people. And oftentimes, oftentimes priests and parish workers will have a sense of who these people actually are.

So you gotta get to know them and you cast a vision for them, for living an adventurous life, of living their faith and sharing their faith more effectively. Um, and being a light to the nations, being a light to the office, being a light to the gym, being a light to their family. And then provide, provide a period of formation where you grow together.

'cause iron sharpens iron. And you build these pastoral relationships among them and between the parish worker and them. And then you give them a few skills, you give them a vision for it and a few skills to give them a little bit of confidence to be more intentional. And more organized with their apostolate.

And then you, you set them loose on their friends and their relatives and their neighbors and their peers. And um, this basically looks like what Jesus did with the 12th. 

[00:35:33] Fr. Lorig: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:34] Peter: When we think of Jesus as public ministry, we think of the preaching, teaching, healing, doing all these things. And he did that.

But why are we here today? Uh, we're here today because he had to replicate himself. In those 12 guys, he had a big enough vision to think really, really small. Okay. Um, he wa his circle of of concern was so huge that he had to focus on his circle of influence. And so 12 guys is about all he could handle in three years, right?

And so Jesus could handle 12 guys, how many can we handle? Right? So small group, this is, this is, if you're familiar at all with the soul of the apostolate, uh, ARD. Yes. Spiritual classic. Love it. This is Love It. Where he, this is where he talks about the formation of shock troops. 

[00:36:14] Jim Jansen: Yes. Okay. Have we ever talked about Soul The Apostle?

I can't believe. Yeah. Favorite, favorite book? One of six favorites. No, it's, uh, 60 favorites. That's awesome. Okay, so keep going. Yeah. Fantastic book. 

[00:36:27] Peter: So basically gather your, your best disciples. Turn 'em into apostles, turn 'em into disciple makers, and then walk with them and shepherd them along the way. And then you gotta do that again with another group of people.

Once they kind of go through this period of basic formation, the, the light switches get flipped on. Um, and they, the zeal starts to radiate out from them. Now, you, you sort of, I say this in quotes. Give them permission to do what they already want to do. They don't need permission. You, you gotta remind, you don't need permission to do this.

This is mm-hmm. This flows from your baptism and confirmation. You encourage them in that, but then you gotta, then you gotta stick with them. You gotta guide them. You gotta provide the spiritual guidance. Sure. 

[00:37:06] Jim Jansen: The shepherding, real encouragement. 'cause they get discouraged, they get right. Overwhelmed, confused.

The world is. 

[00:37:13] Peter: Right. Yeah. And that's one-on-one. That's so what we're talking about here, see we've inherited, in the United States at least, we've inherited in our parishes a structure that is not optimized for this kind of work. We've inherited a structure that's based on, uh, large, medium, and large group for, um, education of children.

Okay. And so even when we wanna focus on adult formation and discipleship and evangelization and all these things, what do we do? We hire a director of adult formation or a director of discipleship, whatever. We plop them into that same structure, and then they try to replicate all that they know and that, and we don't have a very good imagination for lay apostolate and our, because our experience is classroom education, right?

Imagination is formed by our experience. And so what do we do? We plop someone into that structure and then they try to do, um, large group events, you know, large group bible studies, lecture series, all these things, and or try to build up ministries and multiply ministries and get volunteers for things.

When in reality what we need to do is that we have to have a big enough vision like Jesus to think really, really small. When you think of what St. Francis did, what sad Ignatius of Loyola did, what St. Jose Maria Riva did, they thought they, big vision start real small handful of people. Then you just pour into them and then set them loose and then you do it again with another group of people, pour into them and then set them loose.

But then it's one-on-one shepherding. So it's very, in a certain sense, inefficient, which is scary 'cause it's not based on large group. But in reality it's very, very efficient because now these individuals are living a robust apostolate and they're reaching people who you can't. 

[00:38:59] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. You know, it almost sounds like as you talk, it kind of sounds the experience.

I dunno how many of our listeners are familiar with ec collegial movements. Um, and there's, you know, there's no real precise definition. But I mean, some examples I, in the, uh, Latin American Spanish speaking world, there's a ton of different alisal movements. I mean, you referenced, you know, St. Jose Maria Esva and you know, opus de, um, the.

Ec collegial movement that he started. There's a, a number of them, mo very few of them in kind of the American English speaking world. Talk a little bit about that, like just how, because I, I'm drawn back to a quote where Father James mallon from uh, divine renovation, uh, talked about his experience where he saw what you're talking about happening in ecclesial movements, and he's like, why can't that happen in the parish?

Like, why does that only have to happen in these ecclesial movements? Um, and part of they, if even still, if you listen to him when he talks about it, he's like, yeah, I was inspired at the beginning to try and help our parishes feel like the joyful, fruitful life of ecclesial movements. How do you help parishes make that transition?

How do you help individuals make that transition? I don't know. Uh, no, I, I say that probably be gathering a huge, large group and putting 'em in a classroom. Right. Wait, no. Or maybe back to like gathering a small group. 

[00:40:24] Fr. Lorig: Huge event. We should just have Peter come, Peter should just come and talk to our parishioners and he'd just get it, get it all straight for him.

That that's how, how a big event and it'll be settled. 

[00:40:34] Jim Jansen: That's right. That's right. We'll need lights. Ask the question again. What could a parish do to experience some of the life and fruitfulness of these ecclesial movements? Because as you talk about this, you know, this small group of people experiencing formation for apostolate, um, and presumably prior to that they've had, I mean, not even pre they've had experiences of con of conversion that sounds like ecclesial movements.

And when you, when you dig into the ecclesial movements, whatever kind of stripe or particular kind of emphasis they have. There's usually this thing that they do that helps sparks spark conversion, that, you know, that, that fosters the initial counter. But after that, so much of the movement is this formation of individuals in, in a life of holiness, that then sets them, sends them out for apostolate at one level.

There's no reason why our parishes can't feel that way. I mean, there's a, I don't know if it would be properly called an, uh, an Ecclesia movement, but many of our listeners are familiar with the CEC movement here in Nebraska. But fantastic retreats, um, very evangelistic. Um, so many people's lives have been changed, uh, real conversion experiences on those retreats.

And then there's some grouping that happens afterwards. And sometimes we ask a question. It's like, wouldn't it be cool if your parish felt like CEC. Uh, and sometimes we get a starry lookback because it just, it seems, it seems so far away from our current experience, but I don't think it has to be. I think you've given us one clue, and that is start small, right?

Yeah. Gather a small group of people, but like, what else? 

[00:42:17] Peter: You, you have to have, you have to have the courage to think really small, and you have to have the courage to be able to drop certain things that just really aren't that important. Or maybe you gotta drop things that are really important, but actually are better situated as the apostolate of some of your parishioners.

Whoa. Okay. Can you give an example of that? So, I don't know. Let's say, um, let's say there's a, there's a, there's a pro-life ministry. Okay. Pro-life is hugely important. Okay. It's, it's like, you know, one, like one of the top, if not the top. Um, you know, I don't know, apostolate that we have to focus on in today's world.

Okay. Right. Amen. In, in terms of, in terms of, um, you know, corporal works of mercy. Okay. Maybe the parish has a pro-life ministry, but maybe that, that pro-life ministry and, and it's being run by a staff member or whatever, or, or the, the parish is kind of like, it's under the umbrella of a parish ministry and there's staff time and there's budget put toward it.

Maybe that's legit and maybe that should be, maybe it should stay a ministry, but maybe it's actually fruitful enough. That the, the ministry of the parish is actually holding it back from what it could be. And really it's better if it operates independently as the apostolate of the individuals. And so in a sense, you're almost giving this ministry permission to graduate and, and like really flower.

Hmm. Uh, and here's, here's the thing with subsidiarity, with this principle, the principle is sure and certain, but the application is going to vary and differ over time in different places and sometimes over time in the same place. Mm-hmm. And so what's properly done as a ministry in one place might not be properly done as a ministry in another place or at another time.

So I, I just, I throw that up there like, like maybe, maybe fa a TA ton of father's time and energy or the staff member's time and energy is devoted to, you know, five different ministries and they're really important. Maybe one of them is a, is a pro-life ministry and maybe one of them is a, um, ministry to the home bound or whatever.

Maybe one of these is actually mature enough mm-hmm. To be the apostolate of the of, of parishioners who run it themselves. 

[00:44:44] Jim Jansen: I think you're explaining why beautiful things, like they kind of start, they grow and there's a legitimate need for a ministerial seed, if you will, and then they just kind of stagnate.

Eventually seem to suffocate and die and you're saying, no, it's appropriate for them to start. But, but we need to be watching for this lifecycle when there is a appropriate maturity for people to be launched in the mission. And it doesn't mean the role of the pastor or the staff disappears. There's a shepherding and an encouraging and it's not like the relationship has ended and we're not like, you know, we're sending 'em off to be loose cannons or, but, but we suffocate, we suffocate those ministries and we, we stunt the fruitfulness when it remains in a ministry parish run context.

And it doesn't, I. Get the freedom and creativity that comes from just being, being an overflow of, of individuals' lives of holiness. 

[00:45:43] Peter: That's right. That's right. And, and you know, maybe over time what happens is the ministry does start to sing it as it's on, if it's on its own. And then maybe the parish does need to kind of come in and say, okay, we're gonna help you out.

Now we will pro, we will provide, um, subsidy. Right? We'll provide help to this because it needs to flourish. Right? That's, mm-hmm. That's subsidiarity well applied is there's times when it has to flex and there's times when it has to, to, to, to decrease in order to provide the highest degree of personal initiative.

[00:46:11] Jim Jansen: Could COVID be an opportunity you just talk about like all these things that, I mean, it's amazing for how many of us, for almost a full year now. Uh, it's like, oh, and yeah, we didn't classify that as an essential thing. And it just, is there an opportunity here? For discernment and reexamination in this period where so many ministries, so many things being done by the parish, were put on pause.

[00:46:43] Peter: I think this is a golden, beautiful opportunity to develop an imagination for lay apostolate because we don't have any other options in many places that we, we don't have the option of getting involved in all sorts of ministries and things like that. I think this is a beautiful opportunity, uh, and, and this is where we need to, to, to really explore, um, developing this imagination for the lay vocation.

I think, I think in the 20th century, especially the, the latter half of the 20th century, we have, we have developed wonderful conceptual clarity around the notion of lay vocation and lay apostolate. But that, that conceptual clarity has not translated necessarily into a good imagination for what that actually looks like.

Mm-hmm. What does it look like for a financial advisor, for a homemaker, for a grandpa, for, you know, a grad student? What does it look like for them to live a life of apostolate in the middle of the world? Mm-hmm. Um, and, and, and if, if you, if you don't have an imagination for it, it's hard to provide formation for that because, right.

Because you can't, you, you know, you always begin with the end in mind. You have to have a clear picture of what the end goal is in order to form someone to get there. Right. Right. Um. So if we don't know what that looks like, what, what our notion of, of like lay life looks like now is largely like the, the active parishioner, right?

Mm-hmm. The, the per. And so that's, so we keep kind of running in circles, you know, uh, creating formation opportunities and mystery opportunities for like this ad intra sort of churchy parish life stuff. But what I think COVID potentially gives us is the opportunity to really get to know people as they live on their own turf and then form them to live.

On their turf, the life of sanctity. 

[00:48:48] Jim Jansen: Although, you know, I would say, I think we do know what it looks like, right? I mean, it looks like, it looks like St. Joan of Arc. It, it looks like St. Thomas Moore. I mean, lay people living a decidedly, not that you need to necessarily go wage battle, um, gen devar, but like lay people living a decidedly in the world.

Apostolate. Um, it looks like Saint Theres's parents, right? Lewis and Zelly Martin, like it looks. And, and I think that is part of why some of these saints have risen, uh, again, into popular attention. And, and there's, I think, been an emphasis to call attention to their lives. Like obviously Lewis and Zoe Martin, just very recently canonized.

Um, and I mean, again, hundreds, thousands more e examples. If we, if we had the time. Peter, as we kind of wrap up here, can you, can you give us some just real practical takeaways for people to be able to put this into action? And I'd say at two levels, just some, some practical takeaways for just a listener who's like, oh my gosh, like my life is so wrapped up in my parish as an expression of my love for God, but I have no room for personal apostolate right now.

And the Lord's been tugging on my heart and I'm not quite sure where to go now. Um, and then maybe just one or two takeaways for the pastor, the staff member, the super volunteer who is rightly called to that ministerial role and I. Wants to figure out, like, okay, how do I set people free? How do I prepare them for their, you know, their, their calling and their apostolate in the world?

[00:50:33] Peter: Okay. Yeah. So, um, maybe first let's just look at, uh, Joe Catholic. Okay. Oh, I love that guy. Yeah. We've been friends for years. Uh, me too. Couple takeaways, practical things for Joe. Um, first of all, I would say this, if, if you're like all involved in, in parish life and volunteering and stuff, if your prayer life is suffering, if your family life is suffering, or if your professional life is suffering, you're doing too much.

Okay? And you gotta, you gotta pull back from, from all your parish activity, okay. So, so what is, what would that look like? So, you know, you're cutting prayer short because, because you're so involved in church life over here that you, that, that your whole daily schedule is kind of having to shift, and so you have to cut your prayer short, or you can't get to daily mass anymore, or you can't, those sorts of things, right?

Your prayer life is suffering. You're doing too much. If your family life is suffering, you're doing too much. If you're gone at the parish a, a few nights a week, that's probably too much. Ask your spouse are, do you see enough of me? Are the kids, do they see enough of me? If your spouse says, uh, no, you're gone too much, well, then you're gone too much.

That's, it's like, that's it. Well, what if we're not on the same? Danny, are you going to church again? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Even if you're not on the same page with your spouse, boy, if you fail in that realm, you fail. Period. The Lord does not want your family to suffer on account of your parish involvement. And finally, if your professional work is suffering, if you're doing, if you're taking lunch breaks that are too long and doing personal emails, things like that, you're doing too much.

So that's one thing. Also, um, you know, how do you sanctify your everyday life? Well, you know, assuming that you're always striving to grow in prayer in the sacraments, and that you're sacrificing to obtain formation, do what you're supposed to be doing when you're supposed to be doing it and put your whole heart into it.

Mm-hmm. Do it with as much human excellence as your poor limitations will allow. Um, because that's, that's love, right? Love is concerned with details. Get to know your pastor and get to know someone on staff. Um, and this could be your apostolate to them. Um, gosh, like so many pastors. Are so frustrated because they're seeing emptying of pews.

And if, if they know that you exist and you can build a relationship with them, give them hope, this will be a great apostolate for you actually to your pastor, to parish staff. And it will help them to develop an imagination for how to form other laypeople when they see the life that you're living. 

[00:53:21] Fr. Lorig: Hmm. 

[00:53:22] Peter: Um, so I, I can't emphasize that enough.

Build relationships with your priests and with your, your lay parish workers. 

[00:53:34] Jim Jansen: It will. And probably share what you need. I mean, as you're out in the world trying to live a faithful apostolate needs and gaps in your formation in the interior life, intellectually habits like, oh my gosh, what, what church worker.

Pastor doesn't want, someone's like, Hey, father. So I've been, I've been praying and I've been trying to do a holy hour, but I, I'd love a little advice on how to be a little bit more fruitful in my prayer. Like, you know, if we can come and share our needs, our pastors and our, and our church staff members don't have to read our minds.

When we share our, our needs and the experiences and the gaps we, we have in our formation, that gives them invitation to step in and, and to, to serve us and help build us up. 

[00:54:21] Peter: Yes. That's beautiful. And especially, I would say this, it's important to share those needs, um, on, on a personal level rather than saying, why isn't the parish providing this?

I think a lot of people need this and that and the other thing, and that like, that's like, that's not gonna go anywhere. But if, if, if you come saying, I I really need help in this area of my life, that's a completely different question and it's gonna be answered in a completely different way. Hmm. So, yeah.

That, that's a, that's. That's huge. Uh, thanks for sharing that, Jim, that that's, that's huge. Sharing your needs, not what you think the parish needs. Yeah. Um, for, for pastors, for, for priests and for the parish workers. Well, I would say this a little personal, uh, personal, um, commercial here. Check out the Evangelical Catholic, um, you know, evangelical catholic.org.

Um, you get to learn about like what, how we do what we do and, and what that looks like. That's, I would say one thing. Um, you know, call us up, gimme a call, ask for me. We can have a conversation. 

[00:55:24] Jim Jansen: That's an example of some of that formation offered to people for their apostolate. 

[00:55:30] Peter: Right? Because, like I said, it, it is.

If we don't have an imagination for that apostolate, it's hard to give formation for it. And so like priests and church workers who studied theology in the seminary or academically, that is a, that type of formation is calibrated differently than what Joe Catholic needs. It's a d it's, it's not a better or worse kind of formation.

It's just a different calibration of formation. And so when they think of giving formation, they think of giving kind of like, like academically calibrated formation. Mm-hmm. Theologically academic stuff, which is good and important. We need that, but we also need what's called aesthetical formation and human formation, how to grow in the heart and habits of discipleship.

And so, um. That's what we provide at the EC formation and how to do that, you know, other places I would say this, pick up the writings of St. Jose Maria Riva. Um, he's the founder of Opus de and Opus de is an institution in the church that is, that exists for the formation of the laity and, uh, modern, you know, and, um, start reading his writings and you'll get a sense of what that kind of formation, what that kind of imagination looks like.

[00:56:59] Fr. Lorig: Hmm. 

[00:57:00] Peter: Um, or just any, like any of the movements in the church. If, if you are, if you have any kind of access to any of these lay movements, get close to them. Um, get close to people who are in them. Understand how they're formed. Um, not only the content of the formation, but even the setting of the formation is really important.

[00:57:23] Jim Jansen: Yeah. There's something about fluorescent lights in church basements that tends to, uh, suck the life out of, um, authentic friendship and formation opportunities and, and, and styrofoam bowls filled with Hershey's kisses. That that's, yeah, I dunno. It's a, it's a thing. I think it's a chemical thing. So, wow.

Peter, thank you so much for, for being with us. Father, any closing thoughts here as we, as we kind of wrap up here? 

[00:57:50] Fr. Lorig: I think, uh, I have like a thousand more questions, but we do have to wrap up. But, uh, I'm gonna be speaking to the seminarians at at Kenrick here in a little bit. They're gonna have workshops as they get ready to go back to classes, and I'll be speaking about parish evangelization.

So I, I, I can sort of guess what you're, you would say, like, I was gonna ask you the question, like, what should I say to the seminarians? I think we're on, we're on track. I, I think we're aligned, uh, on our ideas. Um. You said something about, uh, uh, I, I think there's a need for seminarians and future priests to be able to know how to form laypeople and, uh, mm-hmm.

Uh, and, and unfortunately, yes, we only received like, how do you form priests? I remember when I went my, my first youth retreat, I, uh, first year the pastor said, Hey, go off and, uh, you need to go do a youth retreat. And I'm like, I only know how to do priest retreats. I only know how like seminarian retreats.

I don't, I don't, I was never part of a youth group. I don't know anything about this. So I think there's a, there's a need that's just, I would kind of hold that up. Uh, your priests, I would say are not equipped, right? So we talk about equipping, uh, our, our, our saints or our disciples for the work of, uh, apostolate or ministry.

However, Ephesians four says it, but, uh, but also I think there's an equipping that needs to happen for our, our seminarians and for our priests as well. What can priests do? Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause we do have a few priest listeners and, and I'm one of them. So I'm just here for selfish reasons. And so, uh, I know you said grab four other people, five other people to uh, really, uh, disciple them, but I don't even know the first thing to do.

Let's imagine, I don't know the first thing to do, um, with them. What am I supposed? So I'm supposed to, what am I supposed to do with them when I gather them? 

[00:59:35] Peter: You get to know each other. You become friends. Uh, you form them in the heart and habits of discipleship. Um, and, you know, this is all like this, this happens over the course of months.

Okay? So heart and habits of discipleship, you know, how to engage in daily prayer. How to make time for that in their life. How to develop a supernatural outlook. Um, how to incorporate more devotions in their daily life without interfering with their work and their family life. Um, how to receive the sacraments more fruitfully.

How to sanctify their work. How to convert their work into prayer, you know, telling them that it's okay to pray the rosary in the car. Um, how do you deal with distractions in prayer? How do you deal with your friends? Um, how do you pray specifically for your friends? How do you engage in intercessory prayer?

How do you engage in mortification? How do you do the, you like, these are things that people are like. Our, our, our are yearning for, you know, how to become a secular saint. Uh, again, this is, this is, these are things that happen over months. Um, but those are, those are kind of some of the topics. The general directory for catechesis is a church document that liss the tasks of catechesis.

The tasks of catechesis are kinda like the categories of, of formation, uh, that by which you can form someone into kind of like a well-rounded disciple. And, uh, those kind of cover the general areas of, uh, of, of formation for people. 

[01:01:09] Fr. Lorig: Fantastic. 

[01:01:10] Jim Jansen: Well, Peter, this has been so good. Peter, if people want to connect with you, if they wanna connect with the Evangelical Catholic, where do they go?

They go to. 

[01:01:21] Peter: Evangelical catholic.org. That's probably like the first best place to go to. Um, and from there, you know, you'll see various contact information for me, for other people on staff. Um, that's, that's the easiest. You can also, if you wanna, if you want a little, like a little bit of a preview of our online system, you'd go to ec reach more.com.

Um, and there's a link to that from our main website, so you can get to that right from our website. And we also have a, a resource called Next Step. Next Step is a resource to help people grow in those habits in the heart and habits of discipleship. So the whole idea is that discipleship is a series of next steps.

People ask, what do I do next? What's the next step? I, I have this conversion experience, I have this sense, I wanna do more. What's my next step? Uh, well, a lot of people just, they need help taking that next step. And so that's a resource that we're, that we're putting together. It's, it's partially complete, but there's like a lot more to be done, but it's already up.

You go to ec nextstep.com. I think you can link that from our website as well. But the easiest place to go is just our regular website, evangelical catholic.org. 

[01:02:26] Jim Jansen: Fantastic. Peter, thank you so much. Thanks for what you do. Thank you for being with us. Um, if anybody would, like, if you didn't write those down, if you're, if you're writing no need to or if you're driving, no need to start to swerve off the road or write, um, you can find all those on the, on the show notes, quip dot arch omaha.org.

Um, that gets you to the blog. You can subscribe there so you don't miss an episode. You can find the show notes. Again, we're on all of the major podcasting platforms. Uh, Google, apple, Stitcher. Just go ahead and subscribe. Um, go there and yeah, you can subscribe to a quick cast, all one word, and, uh, yeah, share this episode out.

This has been a really fun conversation, Peter. Thank you for your time. Thanks for, thanks for being with us. Stay, stay warm up there where you're at. Thank you. All right. Thanks for being with us, everybody.