[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast. Today I sit down with David Spatia. David is the executive director of the Secretariat for Evangelization and Catechesis at the USCCB. We have a great conversation about his own story of conversion, his career as a professional educator, and then switching over to working for the diocese in Joliet, and then heading off to Washington, D.C. to serve the US bishops. It's a great conversation about the Eucharistic revival and all of the behind-the-scenes collaboration that went into that, the priority of the US bishops, the mission directive they're calling it, to seek and save the lost, to reach out to the unaffiliated, to engage them, and really just a beautiful, frank conversation about when you work for the Church and you encounter people being people, how do you let that draw you deeper in your faith and not confuse and scandalize. David shares his own wisdom of how he handles those situations. It's a peek behind the scenes of a wonderful man who serves the bishops, who serve you all. So take a listen.

All right. David spesia, welcome to the EquipCast. How are you doing today?

[00:01:47] David Spesia: Wonderful. Thanks, Jim. How are you?

[00:01:49] Jim Jansen: We were talking off air before we turned on the mics. This is the season where my adult children are headed back to college and missionary work across the country. so it's a little bittersweet.

[00:02:01] David Spesia: It's kind of a good sneak preview because, you're like the home base sending the missionaries out. So we have to talk a little bit about missionary sending today so you're at ground zero of what's it look like at base camp.

[00:02:13] Jim Jansen: Yes, it is fun to see the way they have embraced the missionary spirit really. My oldest is a professional missionary. He works with focus San Jose State. Shout out to JP. The others are missionaries in the truest sense 'cause they're baptized, but they're also, , students, so we have to like, " hey, you do actually have to study."

[00:02:31] David Spesia: Right. Exactly.

[00:02:33] Jim Jansen: So, all right, David, tell everybody just a little bit about your story. When did you first meet the Lord? When did you first hear a call to mission?

[00:02:41] David Spesia: . Well, I was born and raised in Joliet, Illinois, so, I'll give my shout-out to Joliet. Haven't lived there for a few years now, but at my Catholic high school where my parents thankfully sent me, we had Kairos Retreats, and on a Kairos Retreat, I experienced the love of God poured into my heart.

My eyes were opened. It was really an awakening to the reality that God is love and that He's revealed Himself in Jesus. And now, I still had a lot of actual conversion to do from there, but it was just one of those moments where, it's not I who chose Him, but He who chose me.

It's not that I loved Him first. It's that He loved me first. And so that kind of got things rolling and that opened me up, but then through college, it was really when I had what I'd say was an intellectual conversion. I needed to be kind of convinced.

I needed to realize that the church had this wealth of tradition and philosophy and theology and things I got to read and professors I had kind of walked with us in our little major of course of studies. And then also started in response, started thinking like, "Man I need to kind of do some things to try and help some people, I think.

I think that's part of the program here." So doing some service, Christian service opportunities, and then, a year of volunteer work and service after college during that year I got to work in a parish in a inner-city neighborhood, got to be friends with a pastor for the first time in my life and got to work with this sister who just had a heart of gold and I saw her kind of put the gospel into action, loving the people in the neighborhood who came to her drop-in center.

They most of them had mental and emotional disabilities of some sort and So I got to, keep on thinking about, reflecting on, reading about the faith. I got to see the faith in action. So my heart that was open, my mind that was open, I got to try and be of service myself. So that, pattern kind of set up then a process that's probably repeated itself over and over throughout my life.

[00:04:59] Jim Jansen: David, I'm curious, when you had that experience in high school, how countercultural was that?

[00:05:07] David Spesia: Well, it depends, I suppose, how you define counterculture, 'cause it was part of the high school culture, but this was the rip-roaring '80s, there was no language around it. There was no formation around it to support it. It was countercultural in that God broke into my life, and I didn't know that's what God did for people. But it fit with the people who went on the retreat had a lot of powerful experiences and came back, in some ways transformed or at least open to ongoing transformation.

[00:05:40] Jim Jansen: Yeah,

I can relate to a lot of the powerful encounter with the Lord, and then an intellectual conversion coming kinda shortly afterwards to kinda fill in the gaps. I can relate to some of that And part of my own experience, it was pretty counter-cultural that I had to labor to find other people who had a similar interest in growing in their faith. Et cetera, et cetera.

[00:06:02] David Spesia: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say that happened for me for sure through the college years, and that's where, finding friends who actually were trying to take some things seriously. That's when I started stumbling onto an occasional daily mass, which for me was a total revelation. It's Like, We do this every day?"

[00:06:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah, they use this place Monday through Saturday?

[00:06:23] David Spesia: Yeah, right. And actually at one of those daily masses, I heard one of those homilies, it just went straight to my heart, where this simple little priest said, "Celebrating mass every day is the most profound thing any of us can do in our life."

And I was like, "Wow. Wow, I, that... I don't really even know what that means, but I want more of that. I'm looking for meaning in my life. This is the most meaningful thing? Oh, let me, explore this more." So anyway, there were little things like that along the way and people kind of throughout those college years, that there was, support was there if you looked for it and if you sought it out. I think throughout my life then, God also kept inserting people.

[00:07:08] Jim Jansen: Okay, so I'm gonna fast-forward us, and then I want you to fill in the gaps, because I didn't, introduce, like, you are the executive director for the Secretariat on Evangelization and Catechesis in Washington, DC at the uSCCB, the USCCB is the United States conference of catholic Bishops. And i'll let you explain more what that is, but, like, how do you go from a kid who has an encounter with Jesus on a retreat, starts to learn about his faith in college, sees a beautiful witness, priest and sister,

to now you're in Washington, DC, working for all of the bishops in the united States. What happened?

[00:07:45] David Spesia: So first off, my ' corny sense of humor. When I was a little boy, I said, "I wanna grow up to be a church bureaucrat." That wouldn't that be fun?

[00:07:53] Jim Jansen: Don't we all?

[00:07:54] David Spesia: Yeah, but in all seriousness it was, again, these people in my life, and I think I became more and more aware of I gotta try and follow Jesus more closely. But then I suddenly realized, like, oh He might have a plan for me and for my life, and actually He might want me to do certain things and not other things with my time, with my vocation. But I had on my heart from when I was in college that I thought I wanted to be a teacher, and okay, so I thought theology teacher. I had this very influential mentor David Schindler, who died just a couple years ago and really impacted the trajectory of my life. So I thought theology professor, but there was a funny moment when I was a senior in college, and I went to see this other professor and asked some advice about after-college plans, and she looked at me, and she said, "I think you should be a high school teacher."

It's like, what? I was just, I was heartbroken. I was like, "A high school teacher? I spent four years trying to get out of high school, I couldn't wait, and I'm like you want me to go back there for more?" So sure enough, I did some theological studies. We had a young family.

I did a couple different jobs, but I had this thing on my heart, like, "Maybe I should try teaching." And I had discerned not university level, and I kind of got myself out of the PhD program just in time. But I was at a turning point in my life, and I got in a mini car accident. I think I got knocked to the ground a little bit.

We were living in New Jersey, and it was like, "I think I need to get out of New Jersey," for various reasons. And my wife and I had already been talking about, so I went back, and I interviewed for a job at my old high school, and I went back and started teaching freshman religion classes in my old high school, which had since merged with the sister school, so it was a coed experience, a little different location. But it felt a little bit like that old show from the '70s, the Welcome Back, Kotter thing. So like, here I was.

[00:09:58] Jim Jansen: And that is a formative crucible for mission. Like, if you have to try and teach high school freshmen

[00:10:05] David Spesia: Yeah.

[00:10:06] Jim Jansen: the faith, oh my gosh.

[00:10:08] David Spesia: Luckily, one of my best friends, and we'd been in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps together, lived together, he had already been teaching eight or nine years at a Catholic high school in Chicago. He came to the same high school in Joliet when I started there.

So our classrooms were across the hall from each other, and he just pulled me through that first year. He just mentored me how to survive the first day when I wanted to just curl up in a ball and not go back, and then get me through the first week.

[00:10:43] Jim Jansen: David, just give people a glimpse for, like, the non-teachers the room, why is, being an educator so challenging? 'Cause it's one of the most beautiful professions. Everybody loves kids. maybe not high school kids but like, what are you feeling? What are you experiencing? Why, is it so challenging?

[00:11:00] David Spesia: Yeah. I think at that time, to me, the big challenge was, wow, these kids don't care. They just don't care. Whereas I was so in love with the truth and the beauty and the goodness of the faith and I'm like, "Oh, just all you need to do is lay this out for people. If somebody had done this for me in high school, I wouldn't, been such a moron and made so many stupid mistakes, so I'm just gonna lay it out for them."

And guess what? They didn't care. Now, some of them did. There's always quiet minority, but I'm like, "Wow, there's just so resistant."

But what it helped me realize was, until somehow I could help open their hearts, touch their hearts they weren't open to really learning about anything else. So then it became, I started just kind of thinking about effective strategies for engaged student learning, means engaging their whole, their mind and their heart.

It was baby steps along the way. There were some little good signs even the first year that kept me going. And I'd like to think I got better and better as the years went along.

But at the time, I think, and also just the pressure cooker of being with them every day, on the human level, it feels like, oh man, there's no break here. Now, they feel the same way. They're like, "Oh, I've got to come into this classroom again today? Like, can we do this once a week or something?" But-

[00:12:25] Jim Jansen: no, but your witness is in a special spotlight 'cause you're like every day, early morning, late afternoons, good days, bad days and especially if you're teaching, I'm sure there's, it's possible to be a hypocrite as a math teacher. I just don't know how that works. I guess maybe you use a, y- yeah, they catch you at the grocery store with a calculator or something. But like, to try and be a credible witness while teaching the faith, that's day in and day out that's challenging.

[00:12:55] David Spesia: Absolutely, and then that was part of my ongoing lifelong conversion, but especially during that phase, like, oh, boy, I need to make some changes personally or things are gonna start oozing out, when I'm just shooting my mouth off in the classroom all day. One thing that comes to mind was that first year I was teaching, there was a really holy religious sister who had been on faculty there for years, and she was at the end of her teaching career, but she was just this walking witness of holiness and complete commitment to Christ.

Kids would go to her and say, "Sister Grace, can you pray for me f- for this and that?" And 100%, she was right there, and they knew she was with them. And then she retired, and this friend of mine looked and I looked at each other at the end of that year, and we're like, "hey, man, we gotta step up our game. Like, she's gone.

[00:13:47] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Hey

[00:13:48] David Spesia: we were counting on her to check the box for universal call to holiness and mission, but, like, maybe we " need to, make some changes here. make some changes here." Yeah. so-

[00:13:57] Jim Jansen: Hey, buddy you're the new sister Grace."

[00:13:59] David Spesia: Right. Yeah, exactly. Good luck with that.

[00:14:01] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. Okay, so you're loving education. You finish your academic credentialing. You're a building leader for a grade school. How do you end up working for the church?

[00:14:13] David Spesia: So my path from there then I ended up taking a job for a couple years as a elementary school principal in our diocese. So I was at a great little school, downtown Joliet. And through that, while I was there, the diocese did a strategic plan and an assessment, and that was one of the schools that came on the list for, to be closed.

Facility issues, debt to the diocese, all this stuff. It's kind of a common story. But in and through that process I got to know the bishop at the time Bishop Sartain, So when, when that school closed he ended up approaching me, and I was looking at another principalship position at the time and we started a conversation, and he wanted to do some things that would be more, like, new evangelization oriented at the diocese.

So anyway, I went over to the diocese and got to work with him for all of three months before he then got shipped off to uh, to Seattle. But that was my bridge into diocesan work, which I had never pictured doing or thought about, didn't know anything about. And I think there was a similar learning curve. Like, "Oh my goodness, what did I just walk into? I got to figure a bunch of stuff out." And then the new bishop came in, and Bishop Conlin was great, but he had just very different working style and approach, and he and I had a great rapport.

And he then eventually walked into my office several years later after we'd worked closely together, and he dropped this USCCB job description on my desk, and he said, "I'd hate to lose you, but we're supposed to encourage people to think about it." And, a couple weeks later, I flew out for an interview, and then all of a sudden, two months later, I was driving my little car out and starting the job. So it was like one thing led to another, and almost none of it I can safely say did I ever see coming.

[00:16:12] Jim Jansen: But that's somewhat consoling when you look at it, You're like, all right, it's like if I designed this, you'd say like, man , can I stick to anything? But when the Lord clearly intervenes like that... david, I wanna talk about the USCCB, but what did you have to learn at the diocese? Again, you're a professional educator, you're a leader, you're a manager very competent professional. What was new at the diocese?

[00:16:35] David Spesia: I would say one of the first things that comes to mind as new is just realizing that just because the bishop says something or he wants something, that it doesn't just happen with the snap of the finger.

[00:16:50] Jim Jansen: Yes. Say more about that because, like, as I'm just coming off of, almost , nine years working for the diocese, and people just don't know that. People think it's like, " well, the bishop said so." It's like, "Yep."

[00:17:04] David Spesia: The concrete example is that Archbishop Sartan, and then it carried forward with Bishop Conlin, wanted to do a robust faith formation, adult faith formation, that could also be leadership-oriented Catholic school faculty and staff, and workshops for them.

And we were gonna start building out this vision, and I, I went to a meeting with some of the parish faith formation leaders. And I rolled out this idea, which I'm like, "Man, everybody's gonna be thrilled because what we're gonna do is share all the beauty of the catechism in an engaged fashion for adult learners, and it's what the bishop's asking us to do, and we know we need it, 'cause everybody knows we need more formation." And I got out there, and it was just the arms crossed and the cold stares. And I was like, "Ooh, okay. So, let's go to, plan B." So my quick pivot, was to say I gotta figure out some way to get them on board, because they're the key people who are gonna be using this, promoting it.

And so how about if we do some brainstorming sessions as we build this thing out, and come on in and share your ideas? So in some ways we built that together. We built that with real input from some of those leaders who mattered the most and I learned a lot in that process.

I mean, and there's always also all the dynamics between and among offices in the... Bishop Conlin used to, like, use the word curia, so all the people who work for the bishop are part of the curia. So, but all those dynamics of which offices are this and sometimes there can be kind of boundary issues or concerns or, uh, or entrenched mindsets and trench warfare. I mean, I- in reality, I worked with great people, but there's just, there's some longstanding--

[00:18:54] Jim Jansen: RIght. everybody's human.

[00:18:56] David Spesia: Right. Exactly.

[00:18:57] Jim Jansen: I hope we're not scandalizing anybody here, but like yeah, there's a humanness amongst bishops and people who work for bishops. And we're like, I want more money for my budget," and, they're like, "no, and we get the bishop's time," and all of that " just human stuff. It reminds me, I was, the Lord was very kind. I was on a retreat, and I was reading one of the sections of the Last Supper, and in it Jesus just gets done saying, okay, so i'm gonna suffer And I'm gonna die." And then you know what? You know what the apostles do right afterwards? They get in a fight as to who's most most important.

[00:19:31] David Spesia: Right. Exactly.

[00:19:32] Jim Jansen: Andrew's like no, my office," " like, jesus is coming over here." It's almost like you could see this like jesus is like, "Hello, I just poured my heart out." Like, "i'm really kinda " suffering here," and they're arguing about what's most important, which for me was a beautiful... I think the lord used it to convert my own heart to realize like, okay, the Church, the body of christ is suffering now. We're always imperfect, but there's a particular strain I think that we feel in this kind of change of ages, and it's really dumb to be arguing even if it's just in my own head and my own heart, to be arguing about who's most important.

[00:20:09] David Spesia: Yeah. so I think collaboration and building trust, having actual decent human relationships with people so there's enough trust that you can have a difference of opinion that doesn't just become a chasm that separates you from ever being able to work with that person again or--

[00:20:28] Jim Jansen: Right. you've gotta bring buy-in. you've Gotta help people own the things that are being offered them as a gift that you know they need, you know they want, but they're not gonna receive it unless you can collaborate in the creation of it. How does that shape your work now at the USCCB?

[00:20:46] David Spesia: I think there are probably a lot of similarities now that you lay it out like that. And to sit one minute with my Juliet time before I came here one of the things I learned, I heard explicitly from Archbishop Sartain, I saw in action in a lot of ways from Bishop Conlon.

Archbishop Sartain used this phrase "affirmative orthodoxy" back in the day, and it was basically a path to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to the teaching of the church, which didn't rely on kind of a trench warfare mentality. It wasn't a culture warrior kind of mentality. It was an approach to be confident, but open. It was approach to, speak the truth with love and-

[00:21:34] Jim Jansen: and not defensive or reactive or whatever other adjectives you might wanna use.

[00:21:40] David Spesia: Yeah. So, so I think just working with people who they've got their areas of expertise, or they've got the aspects of the faith that have been so important to them, that have brought them in just to be able to see the beauty in that and say, "Okay, there might be some other things that we also need to talk about," but yeah, those are beautiful things.

And maybe I morphed into that as a leadership style to try and lean into people's strengths and figure out what do they really love and kind of let that shine through but I would say this, the National Eucharistic Revival that went on was this amazing experience of the USCCB, led by Bishop Cozzens, who was chairman of our committee, inviting collaborators from around the country in to a process that the bishops had cast a vision for, but somebody had to help get this thing done, and we have a handful of people in my office, and we couldn't get anything done on a national scale.

All these people from different apostolates, diocesan leaders religious and priests and this kind of team of people who came together some of whom were, competitors in different ways, in terms of ministry space but it was a working together that was really so beautiful to be part of and to watch it flower over the course of the three years that were public. For me, it was just the most unbelievable thing I've been part of other than my marriage and family.

[00:23:12] Jim Jansen: Hey that's pretty high praise. But I mean, that rings true to me. I don't know how many of our listeners can really appreciate the scope of this, and I'll let you say more, but like, 190-ish dioceses, right? So you got 190 bishops who really are... they're independent. It's not like the USCCB is the federal, I mean, it is more like a truly federated government, but they're not in charge.

The bishops have independence, autonomy, and all these different ministries, and, everybody's working hard and busy, has their own problems, their own priorities. It can be like trying to herd cats. I mean, it was a huge, endeavor to get people to rally behind this. Talk a little bit about what went on behind the scenes before things even launched publicly.

[00:24:01] David Spesia: We had this executive team that was working with Bishop Cozzens and under the guidance of the bishops on our committee, and we had another advisory group of bishops where we'd report back and get input on different things. But this team of people just poured themselves into it, even though they all had full-time jobs elsewhere, and full-time ministries, and everybody's busy, but there was just this awareness like, wow, if we can't come together around Jesus in the Eucharist, if we wanna keep saying that celebration liturgy is a source and summit of our faith, but we don't actually want to do something together to kind of revitalize this what are we really doing?

And one of the priests who was on that executive team early on he loved a line from John Paul II or Benedict on the Eucharist. They both have beautiful writings on the Eucharist, but that the Eucharist makes the Church.

[00:25:02] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:03] David Spesia: But just a chance to come together. and we had no idea what we were doing, to be upfront about it.

[00:25:10] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Remind me, how long had it been since there'd been a Eucharistic Revival a National congress?

[00:25:16] David Spesia: We had never done a Eucharistic revival. Our closest analog and parallel was the Encuentro process so we kind of reverse engineered it where that went from parish level to diocesan to regional and to national. And we knew we were hoping to do a national event. But we knew we needed to start with leadership formation, so we started with a diocesan year so that those diocesan leaders could get equipped to help the parish leaders and that parish year was really meant to be the place where we made the most traction.

And then the missionary sending year, the going forth after presumably people have had a renewed encounter with Christ, maybe a first encounter with Him. So that was the three-year process, and the national event did get approved by the bishops, thanks be to God, and that was the milestone moment, but it wasn't the end of the revival.

There was actually this whole effort to send people forth as Eucharistic missionaries, to go walk with one person and prayerfully discern who the Lord's calling you to accompany. So anyway, all of that stuff came out of a one-page vision statement about the truth, beauty, and goodness of the Eucharist.

But it just opened up to these different dimensions of like, okay we need to focus on an encounter with Christ. It's kind of like what happened in my own life, my own experience of people need to know Him before they are gonna care to learn more about Him. So start with an encounter.

We knew we needed to do some things on the liturgy and robust faith formation, so was a Jesus in the Eucharist small group study. We knew people coming together sharing faith as adults is a way that everybody wins, everybody grows. And this missionary dimension, the going out dimension that, for myself included, it's a little scary, and we don't, I'm not so great at it.

[00:27:16] Jim Jansen: But that part, just the missionary sending, that makes my heart like so... happy, 'cause so often I think that part gets missed. And, I understand why, but when you read the story of the road to Emmaus, there's this kind of beautiful liturgical pattern in it, where Jesus sneaks up and he kinda walks with them, does a little bible study, liturgy of the word, then he breaks open the bread and they see him. But if you keep going, they immediately run back and tell everybody as missionaries. And so the full view of the story is when they go and they start telling people about their experience with Jesus, that's when he shows up. So like the missionary element is baked into the Eucharist, but for many of us, that was something we had to rediscover later. So I love how that was part of it. David, what are some of the big challenges you guys had to deal with?

[00:28:05] David Spesia: I think the first just on the logistics alone, I mean, you mentioned 190 diocese, so it, was a coalition of the willing. The first challenge is everybody's so busy doing so many other great things and working so hard already, so how do you add anything on top of that or do something different.

[00:28:24] Jim Jansen: If I can illustrate, and this is like I'm embarrassed to say this is like a confession, 'cause I think my first reaction, I'm working at the diocese and ' we've got our vision and our plans, and then you hear about like, oh, we're gonna have a year of eucharist or revival,

and like I just, to be totally clear, I love Jesus, I love the Eucharist, but I think my first thought was kinda like, "Oh, great." ' cause sometimes those things and initiatives can feel like just another thing. And I would like to think I was about as, you had me at hello as any diocesan director, and yet still I don't think my first reaction was unbridled enthusiasm. Let's just put it that way.

[00:28:59] David Spesia: Right. I mean, and that's just natural.

[00:29:00] Jim Jansen: ' Cause I was busy.

[00:29:01] David Spesia: Right. Exactly, yeah. Absolutely. F irst off, everybody's busy, so how do you ever do anything new? How do you add anything else? Unless you take some things off people's plates, or unless you look at things with some fresh eyes and say "If I deepen my own personal prayer life, guess what? I'm gonna actually find more time in the day to get different things done. If I spend time in adoration, if I work time in for a daily mass that I might not otherwise make, that could be my own personal commitment to Eucharistic renewal, but it's gonna have a ripple effect."

But there were some things that we invited dioceses to do, and I think - one of the things, even though we weren't using the language of synodality at the time we started the planning process, we did a very synodal experience of getting input from people around the country. We did these listening sessions on Zoom before we even pulled this planning team together and we were able to get groups of bishops together because Zoom got discovered, post pandemic and that we were able to get voices together and get ideas on the table. The synodal experience at the time was that Diocesan Year was an invitation to consider doing a diocesan gathering, a diocesan day of reflection, or a diocesan Eucharistic congress.

And of diocese did that, and really the feedback we got from those, people were like, "Wow, thank you for giving us this idea. was the greatest that we did in our diocese in quite a while," and people loved it. And so there was that, it was a challenge, but it was an opportunity. People are busy, but think in a different way, you actually do a number of different things all at the same time.

But, I mean, some of the other challenges, there was the political stuff that was going on, about would the Eucharist be used as, a weapon against politicians.

[00:31:01] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Do You deny certain politicians access to the Eucharist because of scandalous, policies on abortion, immigration, whatever? And the bishops are trying to sort this out amongst each other.

[00:31:15] David Spesia: Yeah, the bishops did all the hard work on that. They sorted that out. They charted their path forward, and the teaching document they came up with during that Eucharistic revival, it's called The Mystery of the Eucharist and the Life of the Church. It's a great little read, super accessible and it focuses on the sacrifice. It focuses on the real presence, it focuses on the experience of communion, and then our response to that. But that teaching document just it went to the heart of what the mystery is, but it didn't get into any of these kinds of concerns that potentially would've derailed the whole Eucharistic revival, if people thought it was just a political thing. And then also the liturgy, the ongoing, you know, battles in some whatever you wanna say about the liturgy, and opinions that people have, and what constitutes, reverence in the liturgy, and so on, and so on. That those, some of those questions swirled, at different points.

[00:32:16] Jim Jansen: I mean, yeah, like practically, how did you navigate that? Because there's a lot of diversity in music.

[00:32:24] David Spesia: We had these different working groups, and we had a liturgy working group. And that liturgy working group from the start was in conversation with people and hearing all the thoughts and concerns. And it was a diverse mix of people. But then we knew once that Congress event was approved, the music alone was gonna be, really potentially tricky. And they found the right people who had the right touch with that. So if you go back and, check out the playlist from that it's a mix of praise and worship. It's a mix of songs in Latin. It's a mix of, kinda high, Church.

[00:33:02] Jim Jansen: Yeah, everybody could feel at home.

[00:33:04] David Spesia: Which is really what good liturgy should be. It should be a place where everybody feels at home, and everybody feels welcome at the table of the Lord.

And, I'm not an expert in any of those areas , but we had people who just had the right touch and the right heart, I think, for dealing with all of that.

[00:33:20] Jim Jansen: That's great. Now it's been... it's a three-year process. There's planning beforehand, there's three years public. now we're kinda past the Congress was by, I think, any standard, you know, a success, a beautiful moment. What are some of the, fruits that you've seen come from the revival?

[00:33:40] David Spesia: The Congress team and the National Eucharistic Congress Corporation they've been gathering all these testimonials, just beautiful witnesses that people have written in about either what happened to them at the event, during the event. I think that National Eucharistic Pilgrimage, which started in 2024 with the four paths leading to Indianapolis, the four routes, it carried on last summer and again this ' summer. Those pilgrimage routes alone, the testimonials that come flooding in just from people who witness such faith of those who are, you know, the perpetual pilgrims, those who are on the journey, let alone the encounters with Christ that happen, during the holy hours, during the masses, during the outreach to those in need that go on throughout . So those are kind of peak things that people have just felt compelled to send in their story. So, like, "I gatta share this with somebody."

[00:34:42] Jim Jansen: 'Cause it's hard to solicit those in a systematic way. You do kinda need people to come forward and say like, you know, "This Eucharistic procession is coming through my diocese, my city, my town.

[00:34:55] David Spesia: And then I think more on, like, the data side of it. We did a national study and survey following the end of the revival, and we surveyed people who were engaged in some level or another. Some of them were parish and diocesan leaders. Some of them participated either virtually through the website or maybe in one of the diocesan or national events.

We had that kind of compared to a baseline of, Catholics at large who maybe never even heard of the Eucharistic Revival. But we asked questions like "How does your faith today compare with three years ago?" And what we found was the people who were connected with the revival in some way, shape or form, even if they were already C atholic, overwhelmingly identified growth in terms of their own understanding of the faith, love of the faith, desire to go out to others, and this came up over and over again, just on the personal level.

And then among the leaders who responded they really gave witness to in their parish if they started a Eucharistic adoration weekly or monthly, of which they had never had, just the response of people to that that they started that during the Eucharistic revival and have their commitment to keep it going or the level of participation in actual mass.

If they did the Jesus and the Eucharist study at their parish, for example and people got a kind of a kerygmatic sharing the core message of what really happens at mass, they found that the participation of the lay faithful was, noticeably different. And I think the final thing I'll say that we heard over and over again from the Congress event, and then through this study and follow-up, was the priests who were able to engage with it, they found their own priesthood renewed in different ways, and they were able to articulate that.

That was really gratifying. So yeah I think there's a ripple effect ongoing. There's obviously a lot of good momentum in terms of people exploring the Catholic faith right now. In general, I think the revival is a contributing factor, not a cause, but had its part that it played. But yeah, I think the long-term fruits are really from the beginning what we knew we'd have to wait and see. Like, what do vocations to marriage look like? What do vocations to priesthood and religious life look like? What does the impact on family life look like four years out, seven years out?

[00:37:43] Jim Jansen: David, I wanna keep you on, this level because so much of your work is at this kinda national 50,000-foot level. It's been kind of a crazy run for faith in the united states here. You've got the national Eucharistic Revival and then you've got Pope francis's death, pope Leo's election, which by the way, where were you when Pope Leo was elected?

[00:38:12] David Spesia: Oh, uh, th- this is great. Yeah. W- well, yeah, as it turned out because the bells started ringing sometime shortly after noon Eastern Time, I forget the exact, but one of the guys I work with, he said, you know, heard the church bells across the street at the basilica, and he knew what they were for. So we, everybody who was in the building that day gathered down in one of the conference rooms, and we had it up on this big screen. And the funny thing for me was I was next to this priest named father leo, and, they read off, you know, the name, and he said, he said, Oh, my goodness. Prevost is on my Christmas card list. And I was like... so I'm like, "father leo, you're, almost like a third-class relic right now.

[00:38:54] Jim Jansen: You're to update your list and like, change the name.

[00:38:59] David Spesia: But there was so much excitement and enthusiasm, and couple people claimed they had picked the name, that they were thinking the next pope would go with Leo, but nobody was so bold to say they were picking him in the lottery.

[00:39:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I'm sad to say I was one of those dads who was like, you know, talking to my kids and like, "Do you think we'll have an American pope?" You know, I was like, no honey, I think it's gonna be another 300 years before we have a po-..." And it's like, Oh, or three minutes." You know, I was just like, any credibility that I had that like, " daddy knows about things in the church," it's like, actually maybe not.

[00:39:32] David Spesia: yeah, exactly.

[00:39:33] Jim Jansen: Okay, let's take a fast break to share a word from our sponsor, and then we'll jump right back in.

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All right . Let's pick up right where we left off.

So we've been in this kind of crazy moment here. Again, the revival, the outpouring of love at Francis' death and then Leo's election. What are the US bishops, local diocesan leaders, what are they asking themselves as we stand at this amazing moment? I mean, the challenges are, overwhelming, but there's something special going on. What are they asking themselves?

[00:40:34] David Spesia: I don't know if I can speak to that in terms of, what they're all But the one thing I would point to that maybe precedes the death of Pope Francis, but carries forward the momentum of his papacy, that it precedes the election of Pope Leo, is that the bishops did all come together, and they voted almost unanimously. Th-there's always a couple who vote no on everything. But almost unanimously to approve a mission directive for the USCCB, and this mission directive is all about following the promptings of the Holy Spirit, going out to those who are religiously unaffiliated or disaffiliated, particularly young adults and youth and sharing the Good News of the Gospel.

So that's what they all voted on as the main focus of this current four-year planning cycle that we're in. So that has really shaped the work of our committee for sure. The Committee on Evangelization. But I think it does actually answer in an anticipatory way the question you ask.

I think that was on the bishops' hearts. I think they got an amazing outpouring for Pope Francis for the funeral, the shocking election of Pope Leo. And it's probably been even more amplified that this call that, you know, yes, we need to form and nourish our people, we need to address some of the disaffiliation that's still so problematic, but we need to do it not just in an inward-looking way. We need to do it with the mindset of going out, and going forward in some new ways and to be, creative and bold about that.

[00:42:22] Jim Jansen: Yeah, ' cause what you're saying is huge. You have more context than I do, but the bishops have not named, like, a single priority like this--

[00:42:31] David Spesia: Right.

[00:42:32] Jim Jansen: up until now. There's Something really " special to say, like, No, our unifying single directive is," Outreach to the lost," right? But that's huge because they have responsibility for all things Catholic. For them to say, "Number one priority, let's go seek and save the lost"

[00:42:52] David Spesia: Yeah.

[00:42:53] Jim Jansen: It's striking.

[00:42:55] David Spesia: Yeah, I agree completely, and I think in a lot of ways it's consistent with that Eucharistic revival experience of coming back to the basics. What is the mission of the church? Why does the church exist? The whole Paul VI line. The church exists actually to evangelize, and that's what this mission moment in the church is.

[00:43:16] Jim Jansen: Yes.

[00:43:17] David Spesia: We're still concerned about all the pro-life issues, the social justice issues. We're concerned about immigration and the treatment of migrants We're concerned about the environment. We're concerned about vocations in the church, that all of these things are priorities, absolutely, but this mission directive and the momentum that gives, i think it even adds a little bit of a different flavor to, those other questions as well.

[00:43:48] Jim Jansen: Well, it, it orientates them. As you were talking I was flashing back to this very old... photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy, drawing like, kinda like the culture of death. It was like this plant, right? And it had like, euthanasia and abortion and murder and all these different flowers of death on it. But at root, the kind of the stem stalk and then the root was alienation from God. And it's like evangelization is the only thing that gets at that. You can spend your time trying to snip off the flowers, but if you can get at the root--

[00:44:25] David Spesia: Yeah

[00:44:25] Jim Jansen: you might, be able to make some progress. David, I wanna give you a chance to talk about like, what does this priority mean for your office, for diocese, parishes, and individuals?

[00:44:37] David Spesia: For our office, one of the funny things that happened when it came out, the bishops of the committee... so the way the USCCB is there's all these different committees on different focus areas. So our office staffs Committee on Evangelization and Catechesis. There's nine bishops on that committee.

We also staff and support the subcommittee on the catechism. They work with all the Catholic publishers, so there's nine bishops there as well. Well, the nine bishops on evangelization and catechesis, everybody had kind of a hearty laugh. Like, "Oh, this mission directive, it looks like we wrote that ourselves." Like, this is like, that's great. Like, check, we're already doing this. but then...

[00:45:16] Jim Jansen: David's like, "They finally read my memo."

[00:45:19] David Spesia: Right. Yeah. No, there was the quick holding up the mirror, and they're like, "Okay, what do we need to do differently to respond to this?" So the one thing that we've been working on for the last year is a gathering of leaders this October an evangelization summit.

So our committee has never convened diocesan leaders with leaders from different apostolates around the country. So we're expecting, 175, 200 people to gather together for several days of prayer and discernment and discussion, and it's all centered around engaging some of the key scriptural texts, magisterial texts related to encountering Christ, accompanying others being formed in community, being sent on mission.

And what might that look like for us? So then for the diocesan leaders, how can they go back and do discernment with the parish leaders they're working with, with their own team members on this and say, "Okay, Lord, show us what you want us to do," okay? "We're like the 72 disciples. You had already sent us out.

We've been hard at work for a while. We're coming back to you now to be fed, to be encouraged, 'cause we need encouragement." And also then to be sent out with some new momentum and a new sense of urgency and fervor. So I think that evangelical discernment is what we all need at this time.

So whether you're at a diocese, at a parish in your family, you'd say there's clearly a lot of great things that we are doing, that we need to keep doing." And it's not that there's other things are just problematic, but a discernment in the sense of what's really bearing fruit, and is this bearing fruit or not?

And if it's not, then a consideration of doing some pruning, right? Or, planting some new seeds, going some new directions , but guided by the Holy Spirit and saying, "Okay, Lord, show us where we need to go. Show us who we need to reach out to."

There's so many people on the margins existentially. They're on the peripheries socioeconomically, c ulturally. So, you and I can't reach them all, Jim, but, if we were able to mobilize the core group to actually go, accompany one, two, three people intentionally, prayerfully and figure out where are they on the faith spectrum. Have they ever heard of Jesus? Do we have an opportunity to actually bring good news.

Like, gosh this was the Son of God who laid down His life for you and me, and for the life of the world, and He's alive. And, that that kind of news, some people yawn and act like they've heard it all before, and maybe feel like they've been inoculated. But, that's the power of the core message of the gospel, is to actually have somebody say, "wow, I, I that's for me. That's what I need.

[00:48:28] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I love all of that because there is something universal about our call to, to share our story about our, our encounter with Jesus, but also just, like, making a very personal communal, like, " I forget what you call it, the kind of like an evangelical discernment. Like, okay, What is the Lord doing? What is he inviting? What maybe needs to be pruned out? I mean, it reminds me of the beginning of, like, the Eucharistic revival.

You know, at the start of our conversation, people are coming and " there's this beautiful like, "Hey, let's, let the Lord in the Eucharist renew us again", And that can feel like just another thing. And so letting people really discern, "okay, you are unquestionably called to witness to your faith, but what does that look like for you? 'Cause just get busy is not helpful. Just do more, , is not helpful. And I love the like, okay, we know we're called to share. Let's invite the lord in to say, "What does that look like for me, for my parish, or my diocese?"

[00:49:31] David Spesia: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the way you started this interview, you say, like, I can't remember your exact wording, but something like, "When did I encounter the Lord? When did I first meet the Lord?" Well, I mean, to be able to invite people to consider that, like, what is your story? Yeah. When did you encounter him?

Can I name the ways and times and places when I've encountered him throughout my life? What about today? I mean, Pope Francis in Evangelii gaudium, he says, "I invite christians everywhere at this very moment to a renewed personal encounter with Jesus Christ, or at least an openness to letting him encounter them."

Okay, so, , I'm horrible at doing my daily exam, and at the end of the night, I fall asleep. I'm 60 years old. I just fall asleep at night. But that kind of daily exam, it's like, "Hey, Lord, where did I see you today?" Now, sometimes it's very obvious, and he makes his presence abundantly clear, but there's other times that are more they take a little reflection, and a little guidance from the Holy Spirit to see it. Oh, that was you, Lord. Oh, okay. I see now." So to be able to identify those moments and then to share them, to give witness when the time is right, and whether that's with a family member or whether that's with, the person who you're chatting who says, "You work for the Catholic Church? Like, I used to be Catholic," and Well, how do you respond to that? but you say, you pray, "Come, Holy Spirit," and you, you know,

[00:51:02] Jim Jansen: Yes

[00:51:02] David Spesia: speak of the love in your heart

[00:51:04] Jim Jansen: David, our time has totally flown here, but I wanna give you an opportunity to, offer some encouragement, maybe to be, a little vulnerable yourself here. I think most of the listeners of the EquipCast, are just missionary disciples. Of course, you know, priests and bishops and professional church bureaucrats like you and I. But everybody, regardless of their role, has taken a step, behind the curtain, right? Where it's like, " okay, I'm not just showing up in the pews. I am trying to live my faith and share my faith, and i'm doing that as part of an ecclesial movement, or a parish, or, a combination," where it's kinda taken a step into some of the institutional church. And here you are about as much of a church bureaucrat as anybody. That can be hard, right? 'Cause when you work for the institutional church, when you step behind the curtain and you become part of the organization and leadership, you encounter the human brokenness in a new way. I wanna give you a chance just to share a little bit of how the Lord has met you in that experience, how your faith has been challenged, how it's grown.

[00:52:15] David Spesia: The first thing that comes to my mind is there's an old line from G.K. Chesterton when there was something in a newspaper like, "What's the problem with the world?" And his response was, "I am. Sincerely, G.K. Chesterton." So kind of a variation on that for me is like, what's the problem been with this new evangelization?

We've been talking about it for 20 years, 25, I don't know. And at some level I have to start with myself and say, "I am." I mean, I've been in positions like, "Lord, - forgive me for all the things that I've failed to do, all the ways that I, was selfish, all the ways that, it was all about me or whatever the issues were." So to start with that and say my own brokenness and I think that makes me more that makes us more compassionate towards those we meet. And there's a funny line that one of my brothers-in-law repeats that his father says. So, Big George is fond of saying, "People are people."

And people are- they're gonna keep being people wherever they are, and especially if they're working for the church. They're not gonna stop being people. So that to me is a little bit of a funny reminder of, yeah we're all human beings, and we're all gonna fail.

We all have our brokenness. We all have our wounds, and we bring it all. And we all have our gifts and our talents and our blessings. And so we bring it all together. But I think , for me, maybe it's just an obvious thing, but I mean, the church is the mystical body of Christ. Yes, amen.

And it's also, Was this a Dorothy Day line or is something she quoted from... But it's also the cross on which Jesus is crucified, you know? it's the, the Church, so it's our sinfulness, it's our brokenness. And so it's both at, it's both at, the same time. And I mean, personality conflicts happen some people are more likable to you than they are to me and vice versa, but we're all lovable.

And just to be able to say, "Okay, the, this person whose approach is so different from mine I would never do what they're doing the way they're doing it, but can I still see their good intention? Can I still see what wisdom there might actually be there or is it just like it's not my way, therefore it's the wrong way or something.

So objective evils in the Church failing to address sex abuse scandals, and things like that, those are evils that need to be addressed. And thinking that you're protecting the Church and covering stuff up is shameful. And I came from the generation where a bunch of my grade school classmates were sexually abused by the clergy. And our class is very close. We do all these reunions. I've seen firsthand the suffering, the ways that they've moved on, the ways that they've gotten help or not, the ripple effect of that on others, just because people weren't willing to speak the truth or stand up for the truth or stand up against evil. Okay, that needs to happen always. But a lot of my experience in the Church is a lot of the tensions or the maybe the infighting or when stuff happens, it's more of just a difference of opinion. There's not really an injustice that's going on. It's just a disagreement about strategy or approach.

[00:55:56] Jim Jansen: People being people.

[00:55:58] David Spesia: Right. people. Being people, exactly.

[00:56:00] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:56:00] David Spesia: Yeah.

[00:56:01] Jim Jansen: Oh, David, Thank you. Thank you so much just for, sharing your story and, and your work. It's nice to get kind of like a, a glimpse behind the scenes. Most people don't know a whole lot, I think, probably about the USCCB, but kinda recognizing the Eucharistic revival. Thank you for what you've done.

[00:56:20] David Spesia: Well, thanks Jim. I really appreciate it. It's been fun thinking about this and just having a chance to look back a little bit on experiences and then have great conversation with you. So God bless.

[00:56:32] Jim Jansen: David, where can people go to find out more about your work, about some of the, the cool resources coming out from the USCCB?

[00:56:39] David Spesia: So usccb.org is the home website. and the best way to do that, 'cause then have the different slashes that come afterwards so usccb.org/committees/evangelization-catechesis. But on the usccb.org website, there's a tab for our offices, and just to look for evangelization catechesis there. So yes, and one of the two resources that I'll, lift up the one has been around since shortly after Evangelii gaudium informed and inspired by that, so it's called Living As Missionary Disciples, and it's really a resource for parish leaders on this process of forming and sending missionary disciples.

And then we have a resource called Companion to the Handbook on Catechetical Accompaniment Process. It's a long name, but this companion document is meant for diocesan parish leaders, again, to learn more about an evangelizing catechesis, a way of leading with the kerygma, inviting people to encounter with Jesus first, and then forming them in and through the liturgy, in community, with a mind to sending them out as missionary disciples. So that came out of the process that's been going on working with the Catholic publishers who are great collaborators with our subcommittee on the catechism. And because it's the age of golden resources, so we've got all these great things out there, but how do we form the witnesses who are gonna be sharing the faith, using the resources?

[00:58:17] Jim Jansen: Nice. We will link to those. I'm very familiar with the handbook. It's really, really good. So we'll link to both of those in the show notes.

[00:58:25] David Spesia: Okay, great.

[00:58:26] Jim Jansen: Awesome. Again, thank you, David. Thanks everybody for listening. You know somebody who needs to hear this conversation. So, You share this out with a friend.