[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Quip Cast. So today I sit down with Father Andrew Mattingly. Uh, father is the pastor of Our Lady of Good Counsel in, uh, Kansas City, Missouri. And we talk about the lay apostolate. Great conversation. If you're trying to figure out am I being called to serve within the church in my parish, coming alongside the ministry of my pastor, or is the Lord calling me out to apostolate, right to a a, a service in the world?

It's a great conversation. He lays out the distinction. He talks about how to discern, gives beautiful examples of people that he's worked with, parishioners and friends who have discovered the Lord, calling them out, out into the world, into apostate. It's a really great conversation if you are helping people discern where the Lord is calling them, or if you are in the discernment mode yourself.

You're gonna love today's conversation. Take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to The Equipped Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

Alright, Father Andrew Mattingly, welcome to the Equip Cast. How you doing today? 

[00:01:27] Fr. Mattingly: Great. Thanks for having me on, Jim. 

[00:01:29] Jim Jansen: Oh, father, thank you for being here. I. I mean, I'm, I'm gonna make like a little confession here, right? To the, uh, to the, to the listeners. I'm always tempted to like, kind of like run away in the conversation.

'cause we just started to, we just started, you know, I just always chat with the guests before we turn on the recorders and, and get the mics, uh, rolling. And I am so excited for our conversation today. I feel like I'm gonna nerd out a little bit here, but I think this is gonna be really, really helpful, a gift.

We're gonna talk about the, the lay apostolate and the differences between ministry and apostolate and people kind of discerning where the Lord is calling them to use their gifts. I'm super excited to dive into that. But Father, I wanna give you a chance, uh, introduce yourself. Who are you? What's your story?

[00:02:17] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, I'm father, uh, Andrew Mattingly. I currently am pastor of our Lady of Good Council Parish in Kansas City, Missouri. And I've been pastor there for a couple years. I was ordained in 2015, so coming up on 10 years here, which is kind of wild. 

[00:02:33] Jim Jansen: Nice. Yeah. Congratulations. 

[00:02:35] Fr. Mattingly: Thanks. And um, yeah, I grew up in a Catholic family.

Great parents. I wouldn't say we had too many like spiritual conversations as a family, you know, around the dinner table or anything, but I had a very good upbringing, um, in high school. Went through a personal conversion due to the witness of a teacher discovering the Eucharist, the mission trip, a whole variety of kind of experiences that I.

Nice cumulated. And so by the time I was a senior, I was asking God what he wanted me to do with my life. And, uh, eventually got enough indications that I thought he wanted me to at least try seminary. So, yeah. So I went, I transferred in the middle of the winter to the, to conception seminary, which is on top of a hill in nowhere.

[00:03:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Ooh. The cold winter wind. To confirm your discernment. 

[00:03:29] Fr. Mattingly: It was rough. As a 19-year-old, I, uh, almost left after two weeks, I was like, what is going on? I, I had no knowledge of how to discern big or small things. And so thankfully there was a classmate that urged me to at least stick out the semester and. 

[00:03:44] Jim Jansen: Yeah, you're like, all I know is I'm freezing.

Yeah. It's really cold here. Yeah. 

[00:03:50] Fr. Mattingly: But, uh, but yeah, that's a bit about me. 

[00:03:51] Jim Jansen: Well, thanks for sticking it out. So this is, uh, again, I'm looking forward to this conversation. You are a pastor. You know, you, you mentioned our lead of good counsel, uh, down in Kansas City, Missouri. We're gonna talk about that, but to get us started, we wanna talk about right, the, the lay apostolate.

And that's a term even we're, we'll, we'll take a little bit to kind of de define that, but just to get us started, give us some definition, right? We use terms, mission, ministry, apostolate. We sometimes use those interchangeably, but the church has a very specific vision for what those mean, how they interrelate their distinctiveness.

Give us just a little 1 0 1 to get us started. 

[00:04:36] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. Obviously starting with the definitions is helpful. I'll just look at those three terms you mentioned to start mission ministry and apostolate. And I think one of the most helpful ways to think about mission is that it's simply the overflow. Of the life of holiness, the life of grace.

So it's the overflow outwards into the world. So when we're baptized, you know, the love of God fills our souls, fills our hearts. Mm-hmm. But it, it can't just stay there. The love of God needs to go out. So you might, we might think of holiness in a sense as the love of God received and mission as the love of God sort of poured out.

And immediately upon baptism, of course we enter the lay state. We are automatically a lay person. We belong to that particular state of life. And the church will sit will most often when it's speaking of the mission that's proper to the lay state. Typically we'll use the term apostolate. So we might say that mission for a lay person, uh, is called apostolate.

98% of the time. And, uh, I actually have, uh, Vatican two had a document on the way Apostate and, uh, a few years ago I was sort of searching high and low for a, a definition of apostate. The closest thing that you'll find is in the second paragraph of this document, which is called Apostolic. It's a real, a real gold mine actually.

[00:06:17] Jim Jansen: Yeah, it's fantastic. But it had been, uh, a long time since I'd read it Right, and, you know, in my master's program and an even longer time since I pronounced it correctly. It's a mouthful. 

[00:06:28] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, that's right. 

Yeah, it is definitely, definitely a mouthful. So I can just, I can just read this definition real quick if that's Yeah, please.

It's kind of long. So it says, the church was founded so that by spreading Christ's kingdom throughout the world to the glory of God the father, every man and woman may share in the saving work of redemption. And so that through them, the entire world may be truly directed towards Christ. Every activity of the mystical body with, with this in view, goes by the name of apostolate, right?

So basically any activity that extends the kingdom of God outwards into the world can be called apostolate. 

[00:07:18] Jim Jansen: Right? It almost sounds as though it's an umbrella for all, right? All the stuff the church does, and you can hear, right? You know, the, the rhyme, uh, or the echo of apostle, right? Those who are sent.

[00:07:31] Fr. Mattingly: Exactly. Yeah. And I think one of the helpful distinctions here is that it's, it's the extension of the kingdom of God into the world or throughout the world. 

[00:07:43] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:07:44] Fr. Mattingly: Now, when we look at ministry, uh, it's gonna be a little bit different. 'cause most often in the church documents, when we, when we talk about ministry, it's primarily directed inwards.

And, uh, I owe a lot of my understanding of these terms. By the way we were talking before the show about, uh, Peter Andros. Yes. And some of the articles that he's written over the past decade or so, kind of diving into these different terms and their understanding. I'll just sort of mention that, that, uh, I found his work to be very helpful.

[00:08:20] Jim Jansen: We'll link to it. He did a, uh, a couple, or at least the, the, the one that first caught my attention, uh, from I think Notre Dame's Church Life. Ministry verse apostolate or so something like that. I forget what the, what, what the title was, but it was, it was very, yeah, it was very helpful. Very illuminating.

And he was a guest, right? And we talked about this. He was a guest on the equip cast, uh, early on. And that, that episode just took on a life of its own 'cause it really resonated with a lot of people. 

[00:08:50] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. I think it's called, uh, where does the ministry end and the apostate begin? 

[00:08:54] Jim Jansen: Yes, yes, yes, yes. So you're saying, so, okay, so ministry, this is like, it is the work of the ministerial priesthood.

So, priests, deacons, bishops. But you're saying there's an interior focus, there's a, uh, is it proper to say kind of a care for the flock? Yeah, that's the, that's the role of the ministry. 

[00:09:15] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. That's an excellent way to put it. Usually this is broken down. There are various ways to break down, well, what is, what is this ministry?

What, what does it consist of? 

[00:09:26] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:27] Fr. Mattingly: I would say one of the more helpful is to think about what are often called the, the three offices of, of priesthood, which is teaching governing and sanctifying. And these are, these are all primarily ordered towards those who are already believers who have already accepted the gospel, who are in the pews. Right. 

[00:09:48] Jim Jansen: Right. Well, and that makes sense. Like you're just not interested in, in, uh, a bishop governing you if you don't believe that he's like, you know, Christ representative on, you know, on earth. You're not, you know, you're not interested in being sanctified if you're not a disciple first. 

[00:10:07] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. And so when we look at, yeah, these, these two sort of terms, ministry and apostolate, they, uh, there, while there is some overlap.

By and large, apostolate is directed outwards, uh, towards the world, and ministry is directed inwards towards uh, those who are already already believers, 

[00:10:29] Jim Jansen: which makes sense. Right? So, so that those, those who've been entrusted with this gift of ordination have this responsibility to care for the flock and then everybody else, the flock, if you will, has this responsibility for the rest of the world.

[00:10:47] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, exactly. And you know, people can get a little confused 'cause they'll say, well what about like religious orders that have priests in them whose primary mission is like. The first evangelists in like a, you know, you. 

[00:11:01] Jim Jansen: Right. They are missionary Yeah. And outward looking by their, by their orders charism.

Yeah. Yeah. How do you, I mean, how do you help people make sense of that? 

[00:11:10] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. And that I would say is, is an, is a good example of how like none of these, and that's a caveat should mention from the start. None of these compartments is like so watertight that they're right. There can't be sort of historical moments where certain overlaps are more prominent than others.

And so we don't want to be so tied to a sort of a rigid understanding of the concepts that there can't be some, some level of flexibility, but. 

[00:11:37] Jim Jansen: Yeah. But this, the distinctions are still helpful. 

[00:11:39] Fr. Mattingly: Yep. And I'll also mention too, a historical, uh, reality that's helpful for listeners to understand is that, uh, in the 2000 year history of the church, there really has been very little.

Theological attention, serious theological attention given to understanding what you might call the positive, uh, identity of the lay state, uh mm-hmm. Until the 20th century. And so whereas there's been millennia of attention given to understanding, well, what is the priesthood and what is the consecrated state?

By and large, for most of church history, the lay state has been simply defined as what it isn't. John Paul ii, I think, mentions this. I believe it's in Kristi Fidelis Lachy, which is in his cyclical on the, from 1988. He mentions that. Basically, up till the 20th century, if the question was asked, what is a layperson, the answer given is not a priest and not a consecrated person.

[00:12:46] Jim Jansen: Right. 

[00:12:47] Fr. Mattingly: And so. 

[00:12:48] Jim Jansen: Which is not wrong.

[00:12:50] Fr. Mattingly: Right.

[00:12:50] Jim Jansen: But maybe not helpful. 

[00:12:52] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. 

[00:12:52] Jim Jansen: You're like, we're like, well, thanks. I knew that. 

[00:12:54] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. So, uh, so it's really in the 20th century that we're, we're just beginning to scratch the surface theologically, and then with practical applications of like, yeah, what, what are the positive characteristics of the lace state?

[00:13:08] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:09] Fr. Mattingly: And so it's, I'll just give that caveat from the outset that I feel like my understanding of these things is very limited, but so is the, the churches at large is, is just beginning to kind of delve into these, uh, concepts. 

[00:13:24] Jim Jansen: Right. And part of, I think you, you mentioned probably. Tell me if I'm missing one, but Vatican two in general, talking about the, the mission of the church, I'm thinking Lumen Gentium and then, you know, the decree on the laity and then John Paul II encyclical on, on the laity.

Those are kind of the big documents where the church is beginning to articulate this vision of the mission of the laity and the specific character that they have to be out in the world extending God's kingdom in their own unique spheres of influence. 

[00:14:03] Fr. Mattingly: I think that's absolutely right and uh, yeah, I would recommend definitely to listeners if they haven't to sort of begun to dive into some of those documents.

That would be the place to start. Chapter four. Yeah. Of Lumen Gentium, which is on the laity. Mm-hmm. The whole Vatican II document that we've cited on the Le Apostolate Apostol and, and then. John Paul II's, encyclical. Those would probably be the best three places to start. 

[00:14:30] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. Maybe before we move on there, I love, you know, John Paul II begins that encyclical talking about the, the parable, the, the workers in the vineyard, which understandably many of us get, get kind of like distracted by the whole, by like the, kinda like the, the end of the like, I can't believe the guy pays him, you know, the same amount.

And we're all, you know, we're focused on that part. And John Paul II takes a different angle. He, he's like, laity, you too have a mission and a job. And he kind of focuses on the underused. Laborer, and I think it, if I'm extending his, his metaphor correctly, he's like, no, no, no. The the vineyard owner has a job for you too.

Layman, laywoman, you know, mom, architect by day, you know, church, uh, church missionary by night. The, the, the Lord has, the Lord has a job for you as well. And he's like, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there a line in there? He's like, I commission you like, as he is, like as the Pope, he is like, I commission you go into the vineyard.

I. Man, I don't have the docket in front of me, but I feel like if I could pull out my, you know, my Pauline Press, well creased, uh, copy. I think I've got that highlighted and underlined. 'cause it's, I remember it as a very epic moment where he's just saying, uh, in the name of Jesus, I am sending you into the vineyard.

[00:15:56] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, I don't recall that, but that, that would. 

[00:15:59] Jim Jansen: It's possible. I'm making it up, but I don't think so. 

[00:16:01] Fr. Mattingly: That would fit right into the spirit. 

[00:16:03] Jim Jansen: Yeah, it fits the spirit though. Okay. So Father, before we really wanna talk about the apostate, but maybe it would be helpful if we just kind of tie a bow on. What it looks like when laypeople co cooperate or collaborate with the ministry of the church.

So I'm thinking for, for many of us, if we're doing something churchy, if we're doing something for God, often the first thing we think of is pastoral counsel or choir, or doing something for the church. Which of course is good, but that's, that's more ministry. Can you just kind of break that down a little bit so we can get a thorough understanding there before we launch into the apostolate, which for many of us is gonna be a newer, uh, way to think about how God calls us to serve.

[00:16:56] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, that's a great question. If we, if we take that threefold office of ministry that I mentioned earlier, the teaching governing and sanctifying, we could see how a lay person in a parish could collaborate with the clergy in their parish in any of those three arenas. Someone in holy orders who has this office of teaching, I mean, we primarily see that.

Come out in, uh, homilies Right in. Mm-hmm. But there are other contexts in which someone in holy Orders has to teach in the name of the church. And that's a, that's an important distinction. I would say the one in holy orders is sort of publicly representing the church when they teach. Whereas a lay person, obviously parents need to teach their children.

A friend can teach their friend about the faith, but that's not teaching publicly in the name of the church, per se. And so that's a distinction here, but in a parish. Yeah. A lay person could collaborate with their pastor by helping be a catechist in OCIA. Right. Right. Yes. Um, that would be a common example when it comes to governance.

A lay person could collaborate with their pastor by being on finance council or parish council. 

[00:18:11] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:12] Fr. Mattingly: Or even, uh, in large part parish staff members, many of them are almost exclusively, uh, involved in the, with their day job in collaborating in the governance portion. 

[00:18:24] Jim Jansen: Right. Right. Helping the, especially for very large parishes, they're helping the pastor to kind of corral the huge number of souls.

Exactly. And the operations of this little family. We call a parish or big family in those cases. 

[00:18:38] Fr. Mattingly: Oh yeah, exactly. And then when, when you get to the sanctifying office, which primarily has to do with the sacraments, the liturgy, et cetera, you know, any involvement that a lay person would have in contributing to the liturgy, in particular singing, in the choir, serving, taking holy communion to the home bound.

If there's a, if a parish has lay people doing that, those would be, uh, sort of Yeah. Situations where they're collaborating in that sanctifying office. 

[00:19:08] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. And those, again, at least in my experience, those are most familiar. I, I mean, I think when, when people think about getting involved in their faith, if they think beyond my own personal prayer life or, or my own personal study of the faith, I, I think many of us typically think about, oh yeah, maybe, maybe I'll be an usher.

Maybe I'll, you know, help volunteer, you know, to keep the church grounds clean. Or I'll be on the pastoral council or sing in the choir, or whatever. Those are the things that typically come to mind. Uh, and again, all good things. And for many parishes, sometimes it feels like there's a, there's a shortage of people to do that.

You know, the, the people who've been singing in the choir, they're like, huh, we're getting tired. We need somebody else. We need somebody else to join us. But there's a whole other world of apostolate to the outside. Father, just get us started. Like, what is, what is apostolate? Look like? 

[00:20:09] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, it's a great question.

My own reading of a few paragraphs in Apostol from Vatican two, uh, namely paragraphs five through eight. Uh, my own reading of those is that the document lays out three basic categories of lay apostolate. Mm-hmm. The first one is called evangelization and sanctification. 

[00:20:33] Jim Jansen: Oh, talking it's my love language.

Yeah. You had me at, you had me at, hello. Keep going. 

[00:20:38] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. The, the second big category is called Renewing the temporal order, and the third category would basically be works of mercy. So I can kind of run through these real quick and give some examples. So paragraph, uh six talks about evangelization and sanctification.

And these two terms mean something different. So the evangelization would basically be helping someone who has not yet made a decision for Christ to arrive at that point. And then the sanctification apostate would be helping people who are post-decision to grow in their faith and to be sent out themselves as, as missionaries.

[00:21:22] Jim Jansen: And you know, right away, like what's popping into my mind. I'm thinking about, you know, the, the thresholds of conversion and discipleship that, you know, my team and I use. I mean, it's like, it's like a reflex. It's just I don't have a tattoo, but I, I mean some someday if I do it, that's, that's probably what I'd put on my arm.

Just like the, the, the stages that souls often go through. In the process of becoming a disciple, right. Evangelization. And then this growth in using the church's language sanctification as they grow in maturity as a disciple. And that's part of the lay apostle, that's part of what laypeople, that's one expression.

Laypeople are supposed to be helping others first encounter Christ, you know, like evangelization and then grow in their maturity. Sanctification. 

[00:22:14] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, exactly. And uh, that's often the image I have in my head too when I think of evangelization. Sanctification as your thresholds. Yeah. And then the second one is renewing the temporal order.

And I would say this one is the most unique for two reasons. One is that the church says that of the three types of lay postulate, this is the one that is most proper and unique to the laity. That whereas, for example, I as a priest. I still have a calling to evangelize and sanctify. Like let's say I'm on an airplane and I'm sitting next to a nonbeliever and they strike up a conversation.

I'm not exercising ministry towards them and they're not a believer, but because priesthood doesn't do away with my baptism, I'm still baptized. Right. I still also in that moment am called to live the apostolate of evangelization towards this person. But when it comes to renewing the temporal order, the church will say that this type of apostolate really, like it can't really be done by those in the clerical state or the religious state in, in the way that it's, it's proper to, to the lay person.

So I'd say it's unique in that sense. It's also unique in that the more I've tried to explain this to people over the years, the more I recognize that we still have a long way to go to really sort of. Concretized for people like what this Right. Even referring to, and I can give some examples. 

[00:23:46] Jim Jansen: Yeah, please.

That's what I was gonna ask for is ask for some examples. 

[00:23:49] Fr. Mattingly: So yeah, renewing the temporal order, which comes in, in paragraph seven of the document, it describes what types of things constitute the temporal order. So it would be things like general culture of a society or a city. Uh, so what gets celebrated in things.

For example, trades and professions, politics, economics, and the structures associated with that. 

[00:24:17] Jim Jansen: Medicine, banking, all the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:24:20] Fr. Mattingly: All these sorts of things. So I'll give you an example. Like if someone's a teacher in a school, let's say they're a kindergarten teacher and they suddenly have this light bulb go off one day that, you know what?

Keeping five-year-old boys in desks for six and a half hours a day is just not in accordance with like the nature of a five-year-old boy. And they realize that some structural, yes, policy change needs to be made to how the school goes about educating five-year-old boys. And so they take it upon themself to begin trying to work with the principal and the school administration.

Hey, can we, they might start with something simple. They might say, Hey, can we extend their recess a little bit? They need a little bit more time to get out the wiggles so that they can actually focus in class. And then maybe they, they get that passed and then maybe they say, Hey, can we shorten lessons from, you know, class periods from 40 minutes to 30 minutes.

Right. And they mm-hmm. Begin making these incremental changes that aligns the temporal structure of education to be more, uh, in tune with the nature of the child. Another example of this would be building sort of new temporal structures. Mm-hmm. That, you know, a conversation that's had among the men in my parish.

Often they're big fans of the podcast, new polity, if you're, uh, familiar at all with them. But a lot of guys have had discussions about how can we start a free loan society. So we got all these young families in the parish that are going into massive mortgage debts, trying to buy a new house. Many of them can't even, they're not gonna get a house until they're like 40 and all these financial struggles.

And it's based on broken financial systems. And so one answer to this would be developing a new financial system to alleviate some of these problems, such as a free loan society. 

[00:26:18] Jim Jansen: Right. Well, I think about the, like micro lending, uh, which, which has kind of taken off on the third world where people creatively realize like, Hey, wait a minute, we can provide resources to help women and children and poor families develop an independence.

And they created a new structure, a new financial structure, a new mechanism within the world to do that. 

[00:26:42] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. 

[00:26:43] Jim Jansen: Keep going. There's a question like a brimming in my mind, but I'll, I'll wait. So you're saying those are examples of the temporal order, renewing professions, renewing kind of the way things happen in the world?

[00:26:55] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, and I would, I would be remiss if I didn't say, you know, the, the most profound place of human development in the temporal order is the home. So mm-hmm. Anything that can be done to, uh, design, decorate, maintain a home, that is a phrase often used in, for example, in, uh, Opus Day is a, a home that's bright and cheerful, right?

So, so that's a home where when you walk in, it's gonna be conducive to things like prayer, laughter, you know, all these things that are important for our general human flourishing, but our, our spiritual growth. So anything that can be done to make a home Yeah. Brighter, more cheerful is going to be renewing the temporal order.

[00:27:43] Jim Jansen: And, and so you are, I mean, you're, you're drawing moms homemakers into this? No, it's a particular type of poss apostolate that one. Uh, you can only, you're, you can uniquely do, but there's something, there's, uh, I mean, I think the implications we, we'll dive more into this later. There's a call here, there's a grace here for that type of work.

[00:28:05] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, absolutely. That's a, a great way to put it. Yeah. That the, there's a grace flowing through one's baptism through one's identity as a lay person to help with that particular type of apostolate. Perfecting what you might call the, the trades of homemaking things like, or the skills, right? Homemaking things like cooking and I don't know everything else that goes into, uh.

[00:28:28] Jim Jansen: I mean hospitality.

And, and also, I mean, I just, I have to brag about my, my, my lovely wife here for a moment. Part of it is like, you know, we have over the years, whether it's, whether it was our time with focus, hosting large gatherings of students and missionaries or other things, you know, my, my, my wife's an introvert, but she is, uh, an amazing kind of logician.

Coordinating, you know, all the logistics of our, of our parties. And so, you know, we, we had a big graduation party, and it was, she's made it a science. Everybody, there was like this placard, right? Everybody had like, it's like Jim and Josh and Joey. And then, you know, we had, uh, family in town. Everybody had a, like a little section, and then everybody got like six post-it notes that were put underneath their name.

And she's like, all right, here's the deal. These are your jobs. Grab, grab the post-it note work, top to bottom, and when you get this done, take it off, throw it away, and then, and then move to the next one. And if you're done early, help somebody who's still working on their jobs. If you have questions, come and find me.

And she just very, very quickly mobilized the, the team of people around her to. Prep for a party that probably could have taken six hours to prep for. And we all, we got it all done in two. 'cause she knew what needed to happen and how to organize people and, you know, and who was supposed to do what And it's a, it was a science, it was a beautiful homemaking skill.

[00:29:58] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great example. 

[00:30:00] Jim Jansen: Shout out to my lovely wife, who I, who I love. Okay, so we got one more, we got a third, uh, a third category here of apostolate the mercy. 

[00:30:08] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. Works of mercy. And, and this was, is the one that's probably easiest to explain for people. So you have the, the corporal and spiritual works of mercy that alleviate either some sort of material lack or suffering in somebody or some sort of spiritual lack or suffering.

And those, you can find those lists in the catechism or anywhere of the corporal and spiritual works of mercy. 

[00:30:32] Jim Jansen: And so this would be like those who are like, Hey, I tutor. You know, kids in inner city schools who are struggling with mathematics, right? Spiritual work of mercy, you know, I provide food for those who are hungry or I visit those in prison, or whatever.

All of those things are kind of grouped there. 

[00:30:49] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, absolutely. And, and obviously as you can tell, like a lot of these, you might have two or maybe all three types of apostates that are kind of overlapping in a single activity. So again, they don't have to be watertight. Like if you're tutoring in a kid in an inner city school with, in math, that's, you know, a spiritual work of mercy.

But by all means, if, if you have an open door to talk about Jesus and evangelize, you know, like, so we don't need to think about the apostates too. 

[00:31:15] Jim Jansen: Right. And maybe you're also at the same time you're, you're tutoring this kid and you're, you're starting to serve, you know, on the local school board. To maybe, uh, re renew the temple order and, and see if some of the, uh, some of the structural changes that need to happen can be addressed as well.

Absolutely. 

[00:31:33] Fr. Mattingly: And I'll, I'll make a point about that. You mentioned school board when it comes to renewing the temple order, I think a lot of Catholics. Can make the mistake of being so turned off by the political vitriol that's just sort of everywhere. 

[00:31:51] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:51] Fr. Mattingly: That they, they say, I wanna get as far away as possible from that and not realize that they may have the gifts and the call from God to invest themself, even if it's like, there's a lot of open doors, even in very small level local politics, like neighborhood associations, school boards, city councils, and you can make a significant impact on the temporal order and, and ultimately souls by, if you have the skills for that, you know, investing in those areas.

[00:32:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, I mean, honestly, father, what's, that's exactly, I mean, thank you. You gave voice to, to what is kind of rising in my head because I feel like there is, uh, certainly an implicit, I think it's occasionally explicit counsel, if you will. Hey, stay away from. Bad people stay out of the world. And so there's this almost kind of run to your, your little Catholic bubble.

Your little Catholic jacuzzi. You don't want to, you don't want to be with those people. They say, they say batty, wor bad words, you know, like that potty mouths, you know, or like they don't know Jesus. There's no hope there. And what, what I'm hearing is the vision of the church is exactly opposite. The vision of the church is the spirit of the Almighty God resides in you and might be calling you to that school board.

And we get it. The people sitting next to you on the board have very different views about the human person. Yeah. Very different views about the education of children, gender, ideology, all this stuff. But that's exactly why you're needed. Yeah. And that's exactly what you're graced for. 

[00:33:32] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more and I would say for someone to be successful at going into those very kind of secular worldview environments.

[00:33:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's a pretty intense example I just gave, like, yeah. 

[00:33:44] Fr. Mattingly: But for someone, any, anyone to be successful in that, there also need to be certain cultures or communities that are protected in a sense that are, you know, the family obviously being one of them. We need to have places we can go back to, right.

Friendships we have where we are on the same page so we can sort of build each other up, but not just to enjoy our little, like you said, our Catholic jacuzzi, but precisely to then go back out there. 

[00:34:09] Jim Jansen: And engage. So I, I just have to. I'm not, I'm not even sure what my question is here. It's, I think it's somewhere in the realm of like, how did we get here?

Because it seems like there's an implicit message to like, no, stay safe, stay within the jacuzzi. That is sometimes, again, never, rarely, explicitly, implicitly come out. And there's also a sense that I feel like those that engage in the temporal order, it's almost like they're, they're, they're sometimes viewed as second class citizens.

And, and what I mean by that is like, oh, all this guy does is, you know, he, he's involved with his work and politics and, you know, he serves on the United Way board. And, and he, you know, and, and, and he's not a reader at church like me. He doesn't bel, you know, he doesn't bring communion. He never volunteers at our parish, thrift store.

And there's something actually really laudable about. That person who is engaged in the renewal of the temple of Order. Can you talk about like, how did we get here? How, how did we miss this? 

[00:35:19] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, it's a great question. I, I'm not sure I could quite sort of put my finger on the historical trajectory. I guess I'll say this, I think many Catholics, uh, especially for our listeners, familiar with the, uh, book from Christendom to Apostolic Mission, fantastic book.

Uh, I think many Catholics are still, without realizing it, stuck in the mindset of a Christendom era where the institutions of society more or less match the Christian worldview. And I think the, the quicker we can get to the point where your average Catholic just fully accepts with open arms, the fact that the Christian worldview is at odds.

Almost polar opposites of the worldview of most institutions today in society. Then we can be at peace with the idea of like, okay, now those places are completely like mission territory and, and I just need to be comfortable kind of going into them as a missionary. 

[00:36:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And that's where I'm called Father.

Maybe this is like, I want to get you in a space where you can kind of be your kind of pastor, spiritual director mode. How do you start to discern where the Lord is calling you? You know, as, as, as an individual, whether it's ministry or whether it's apostate or whether it's, you know, kind of like a subset of of, of one of those.

How, how do people begin to discern it? Because hopefully these categories open up a vision for like, oh wow, there's like a whole ‘nother world for me besides serving like at my parish, you know, assisting in the ministry. How, how do you start to discern that? 

[00:37:05] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, that's a fantastic question. I'll give a few principles that can be used off the bat.

So one of them is that, I would say for a lay person, an example I often give is, if you got a young dad who has time either to coach his son's, you know, t-ball team or to serve, you know, fathers invited him to be on the parish council. So the coaching, the T-ball team that's in the world that fits the lay, you know, the lay state, that's apostate being on the parish council would be participating in the, the priest governance.

So it'd be ministerial. I would say for a, a father in that situation, the automatic benefit of the doubt goes to coaching his son's t-ball team. Uh, not only because it's his son, right? So that's sort of, it's al you know, family vocation, but also because of the things I said, it's in the world. It, it fits the lay vocation.

It's more a apostate, the ministry. That being said, a man in that situation, if he brings it to prayer and talks to his wife and so on, like he, he may very well conclude that in this particular moment God wants him on the parish council. But I would say he would need stronger reasons to make that choice than to coach his sons, uh, Tewa team.

So, so that would be principle number one. Another principle that's helpful that is laid out in Apostolic is the priority of what it calls individual apostolate over group apostolate. So it describes in, uh. And I'll read this because I think it's really helpful. So individual apostate, as it sounds like, is apostate that I just carry out on my own.

And a group apostate is where I'm united with, you know, one or more other believers to accomplish some apostolic goal. So in paragraph 16 of the document, it says the individual apostolate is the starting point and condition of all types of lay apostolate, including the organized apostolate, and nothing can replace it.

[00:39:17] Jim Jansen: Wow. 

[00:39:18] Fr. Mattingly: It says the individual apostate is everywhere and always in place In certain circumstances, it is the only one appropriate. The only one possible. All laypeople, whatever their condition are called to it, are obliged to it. Even if they do not have the opportunity or possibility of collaborating in associations or like group apostolates.

[00:39:39] Jim Jansen: Wow, that's huge. I mean, what I, it's like, yeah, just because there's nobody else to help you with this, maybe qualify that there's no other human person, there's some divine persons that are gonna help you with this and you're commissioned to go. Even if though perhaps not ideal, you're the only one right now.

[00:40:04] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. When you think about a, about it on a practical level, it makes sense. I mean, if you work at a company, let's say, and you know there's a decent chance that like. The two or three people you work most closely with who aren't believers or they're falling away or whatever, there's a decent chance that you're the only faithful Catholic that they know.

And so if you don't exercise your apostolate towards them individually, if you say, well, I'll wait for them to get caught by, I don't know, some diocesan group apostolate that's out there, you know, like it's just not, yeah. That's not how things work. 

[00:40:42] Jim Jansen: Right. Or, or I'll even, I'll wait until I have a coworker to to do this with me.

There's something I ideal about that Jesus sends to. Tends to send people out two by two. And yet that quote you just read, it's like, yeah, but you actually can't wait until whatever. You know, it's like, it's like Paul and Timothy. It's like, yeah, sure, God willing, you know, Timothy is on his way. But you actually have to start, you have to begin to develop the relationships and to pray for, and as the Lord allows, begin to witness to these coworkers, even if you feel like you're the only one.

[00:41:17] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I would say for someone discerning like, well, where do I start with the lay apostle? That I would say, first of all, look at the situations where you're literally the only one that could reach a person. And that would be, that would get sort of the benefit of the doubt as kind of your first place to look versus joining some kind of group or something.

Not that that's bad. The church will, the document goes on to say group apostates are helpful 'cause they can train their members, they can accomplish apostolic goals that are beyond the reach of an individual. They obviously have their place. 

[00:41:55] Jim Jansen: I mean, you know what the metaphor that's coming to mind for me, you know, I'm a kind of an amateur historian, so I think about like World War ii, like D-Day and all of the paratroopers.

And without going into detail, some of the, the plans to drop everybody in nice, tight, tight groups where they could meet up and work together didn't work. And there were a ton of soldiers that were like, I'm all alone and I have a mission that's like, oh man, it'd be really handy if there were a couple other guys with me.

But they begin to act on the mission assigned to them. Because they're like, well, I'm a soldier and I'm just, 'cause I'm not with my unit doesn't mean I'm not a soldier. And so they began to move, which was a, you know, again, those individual actions were actually very his heroic and made a huge difference in the success of, of D-Day.

And that's like the image that's coming to mind here. It's like, well yeah, it'd be great if, if there was a team or an association around you, but, but you're baptized, you're confirmed. So you're a soldier. 

[00:42:58] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great image. I love that. Yeah. So back to the discernment question, 'cause I think this is key and probably, I imagine what a lot of listeners are very interested in, how do I, how do I discern this?

I think, uh, yeah, those two principles are helpful. Opting for apostate over ministry gets kind of, apostate gets the benefit of the doubt. Individual apostate gets the benefit of the doubt. And then I would say. One thing that I would take people through in the young adult community that I helped lead for a number of years, and we had some training in lay apostolate.

Uh, we had this kind of triple Venn diagram that we would use and, uh, in one circle was life circumstances such as job relationships, neighborhood, et cetera. Uh, and another circle was talents and charisms. And then in the third circle was, uh, what we'll call like passions, things that you're passionate about.

And I'm sure there are other ways you could design a Venn diagram, but we would sort of walk people through and say, you know, list out a number of things in each of these. Circles and then see where they overlap in the middle. Where do my passion, the things I'm passionate about and gifted in mm-hmm.

Overlap with my circumstances. Uh, and then let me start praying about what a concrete apostolate would look like, whether it's, you know, in, in one of those three different areas. And I'll share some examples. Actually, I had a, yeah, please. We had this initiative for a while and it was 12 or 13 weeks long.

It's actually still going. And the goal is, at the end of it, every participant commits for a year to a concrete personal apostate that they've discerned. And I was interested that early on, basically every single time someone came out the other side, they had, they had discerned nothing at their parish that after they went through this, it was always something out in the world that.

Was what they had landed on. So one example was, uh, someone had decided they had a fallen away cousin a few years younger than them who they knew, still admired them. So they said, well, here's kind of an open door. And so they committed to getting coffee with them once a month, and that was gonna be their apostolate.

Another person, uh, concluded that based on their upbringing and things, they sort of knew how to talk the language of those and maybe like upper to upper middle class society who also need Jesus. Mm-hmm. And so they discerned that they were gonna join kind of a, a bougie like athletic club and they were gonna get a, a personal trainer and they were gonna take tennis lessons and they were gonna, you know, their involvement in this athletic club.

They were gonna try and build relationships with, uh, with people in their same sort of. Yeah. Walk of life, I guess, if you wanna put it that way. 

[00:46:03] Jim Jansen: I just wanna speak to all of you who are like hoping for that call. Right. Jesus, please call me to be a missionary at the country club. Yeah, exactly. But honestly, actually having a few friends, not a lot, uh, who have country club memberships, how do I say this nicely?

Like, they need Jesus too, and if not you, who? So, okay. Keep going. I love that story. Yeah. 

[00:46:22] Fr. Mattingly: Another one was a guy who, uh, he had, uh, played a lot of baseball and, uh, knew the game really well and, and had decided that he was going to help coach at a public, uh, high school baseball team. Right. Um, obviously you could do apostle just as well as a Catholic high school, but this was sort of even one step further into the world and he was able to leverage that volunteer coaching to start mentoring some of these high schoolers and introducing them and evangelizing them at the same time.

[00:46:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:46:58] Fr. Mattingly: So those are, those are a handful of examples. 

[00:47:00] Jim Jansen: Oh, father, that's huge. But, okay, so now, now I just have to like, I'd have to put my list, my, my listener hat on for like the parish leaders. The, and particularly like the pastors that are listening are like, uh, well you had me up until when I start to get people discern and they're like, Nope, not the parish.

Yeah, yeah. You're, I, I wanna give you a chance to speak to this 'cause you're a pastor. You know what it's like to like, oh my goodness, I could use some help here. You know, you know what it's like to, to invest in laypeople, to hope for some fruit back and again, uh, our Lady of Good Counsel is a, you know, blessedly healthy parish, tons of young families.

Can you speak to those again? Who are church, church leadership who are like, man, I'm tired. I need some help. I really want Jesus to call people to ministry. Yeah. I don't want them coaching baseball at the public school. Can you speak to them in, in terms of, you know, how, how they can think through their shepherding of souls and, and this maybe tension that they might feel?

[00:48:09] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, it's a, it's a fantastic question. Yeah. I wish I had like a, a super simple answer. I, I would say in general, the more a parish can make efforts to keep its ministerial programming, if you want to put it that way. 

[00:48:31] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:32] Fr. Mattingly: At a minimum and focus its efforts purely on, yeah. Like, how do I put it? Like forming people in holiness and apostolate versus.

I dunno, this is maybe a question that I think you can answer better with the designing like a clear path, but yeah, I think a lot of parishes suffer in this realm 'cause they're just a bit bloated with, you know, too many, there's just too many things happening. 

[00:49:04] Jim Jansen: No, I ag I agree. I I actually, ironically, I wasn't fishing for that when I asked the question, but, but you're right.

What, when we have too many ministries at a parish, there's two things that happen. What one of the biggest things, and yeah, I talk about this in the book, is that people get distracted. They don't, it actually doesn't help you in engage people in the life of the parish. The multiplicity of choices becomes a distraction.

And, and actually there's really good data that shows the more programming you have, the less likely you are to grow as a parish, which is super counterintuitive, but the data is very solid. Uh, on, on that, you know, and I cite that in, in the book, uh, for those who don't believe me, like, you know, go, go look it up.

But, uh, the other problem is maybe those people are called to apostolate and by creating self-referential ministry programs. We might actually be keeping people from the call of God in their life to reorder the world and, and ultimately what, what's gonna be most beneficial for their sanctification?

[00:50:20] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah, absolutely. Like, am I gonna grow more by being involved in the parish's youth ministry, as great as it is and mm-hmm. You know, as significant an impact as that can make. But someone does have to ask that question of themself, you know, is the Lord calling me to that? Or is he calling me to go to happy hour with two of my coworkers once a week?

And to invest in them? 

[00:50:45] Jim Jansen: Which again, some of us are like, oh, please Jesus, I send me, uh, but, but that is a, I mean, I, I'm being a little facetious here, but that there is a, you know, in my time as a missionary and, and particularly Ashe, seeing. Former missionaries. Now they're, they're no longer working for the church.

They no longer have a business card that says missionary. They're an accountant or an architect or a whatever, you know? And for those who've really maintained their prayer life, they stayed in spiritual direction. They've continued to read and learn. They find themselves being drawn to exactly that type of service.

They, they find themselves being drawn to apostate. What, what I think attracts me about the framework that you're laying out, that the church has laid out for us is that often they do so with a little bit of disorientation. And what I mean by that is they feel that unnecessary guilt and self-doubt about is it okay for me to serve on the board of the United Way?

'cause man, my parish could use some help. Is it okay for me to like. Spend time, you know, like with my fallen away cousin or, you know, going to the, going to the bar or being part of the golf league with my coworkers. 'cause you know, the, the choir is kind of bad and I, I could sing there, you know, like, and, and the ability, the decision to not overload their schedule and the decision to be present in apostolate.

It's done with a little bit of disorientation and confusion. Mm-hmm. Because it doesn't feel like the typical patriotic thing you're supposed to do if you're a faithful Catholic. Yeah. And, and you're helping to say like, actually I think this is what the church is asking for. Yeah. Or at least there's a very good chance that this is what the church is asking you asking for.

There's no need to be ashamed of it. 

[00:52:48] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. No, it's, it's great. I would, yeah. Maybe offer two thoughts. One is that like the more parishes can. This is a tough discernment, but sort of sift through all of their ministries and discern which ones are critical. Like I would, I would argue, you know, the church places such a high premium on sacred music, let's say, saying it's the highest of the sacred arts and it's integral to the liturgy, I would say, like having good music at Sunday mass and having parishioners with great singing ability, joining the choir, like that's a critical ministry for a parish.

And I'm gonna give an example that may, I don't know, offend some people, but like, you know, a quilting ministry. Like I love quilts, they're great. We have a parishioner here that owns like the biggest quilt shop in Kansas City, but like, that's not really like a, a proper to the mission of, I. A parish. Right?

So I think some of this guilt Yeah. Could be solved for the average parishioner by sort of an overhaul, which is what, you know, the clear path is about sort of an overhaul of which things are actually like, like proper to, to our identity as a parish and ministry. So that would trim those down. I think another thing that's necessary though too, is, you know, pastors honestly have to have a proper understanding of ministry and apostolate, because if they don't, they're gonna, even though they might mean, well, they're gonna end up probably applying a lot of pressure, whether explicit or implicit for parishioners to quote unquote get involved in the parish.

And while I, I would say that belonging to a parish means you're part of a family and therefore you should feel a sense of responsibility for your fellow parishioner. So I don't think it's okay to just be a total consumer where you, you go on Sunday, right, and you leave immediately. You don't even bother chatting for like 20 seconds with somebody to get to know 'em a little bit.

Like if you, if you don't care at all about the broader parish family, I would say that's going to an, that's helpful. 

[00:55:02] Jim Jansen: Thank you. Yeah. You have to be a member of the family. 

[00:55:07] Fr. Mattingly: Right. But primarily I would say that like, yeah, people need to be given the freedom and this largely just has to come from the pastor to say, here, here's my vision for what it means to be like a lay Catholic at this parish.

A member of this family. Like I, for example, when someone new registers here, I send them a little welcome letter that outlines the four sort of essentials that I see of what it means to be a parishioner that could cancel. One is attending mass here every Sunday. Not just anywhere in the city, but here alongside their parish family.

That being together is very important. That's, that's the number one fundamental thing. Second is a commitment to get to know other parishioners and build relationships with them. I don't specify really how they go about that, but that's an essential component of being part of a parish. Third is, you know, material support of the parish tithing.

And fourth is spiritual support by praying for the pastor and the other parishioners. And so that's, that's basically it. 

[00:56:20] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. 

[00:56:21] Fr. Mattingly: We have very, very minimal ministries. Are we too minimal? Maybe. I don't know. We need to discern that in the coming years. 

[00:56:28] Jim Jansen: I mean, it does seem like it's working and there's a variety, you know, there's a variety of things.

But I, I've been, I've been to the parish. I, I've visited, there's a special vibrancy, you know, so for those who are, who are listening, who are in the area, and we'll, we'll link to the website, encourage you to make a visit, you know, some Sunday, uh, to our Lady of our Lady of Good Counsel in Kansas City.

Father, any, I mean, our time has totally flown here. Any other kind of last bits of encouragement or ways that either for a pastor or for an individual that, that you can help foster people's, uh, discernment of where the Lord is leading them? 

[00:57:08] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. I'm trying to think if there's anything beyond, you know, those few principles and kind of the Venn diagram, bringing it to prayer.

Obviously if someone's married, I. Any discernment like this needs to, uh, include a conversation with the spouse. 

[00:57:24] Jim Jansen: Very good advice. 

[00:57:25] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. I've discerned honey that I'm, I'm gonna be, uh, at happy hour three times a week with my coworkers. You know, so. 

[00:57:34] Jim Jansen: All things Yeah, that's, that's right. 

[00:57:36] Fr. Mattingly: Don't you care about apostolate?

Come on. 

[00:57:38] Jim Jansen: Yeah. But honey, it's souls. Yeah. No, that's really good. That's, that's, I mean, that's, that's never a bad advice, but it actually, there's a special, yeah. Again, for those of us who, uh, who have been yoked together in, in Mamo, that, that's a pretty sound discernment principle. 

[00:57:56] Fr. Mattingly: Yeah. Maybe the last thing I would just say is like, honestly, maybe the biggest obstacle for people who are, who are bought in, who are like, yeah, like Jesus has changed my life.

I wanna spread him to others and into the world. Honestly, one of the biggest obstacles I see is just they, they feel like they don't have time. You know, mostly this parish is young families. So to ask like someone with four kids under seven, Hey, how about you discern like a personal apostolate? It can seem like just an over, they feel like they're already underwater, like how in the world?

So I would say maybe the first thing is to help them see, well, how can I live some of these apostolates without adding anything to my normal schedule, like during my workday or in a, in a relationship that I'm already, you know, engaged in. And, but then also to encourage them to not be afraid to say, well, how significant is apostolate?

And can I sit down with my spouse and carve out a certain amount of time each week or each month to have coffee with this fallen away friend or neighbor or whatever? Like, like am I willing to make that sort of extra sacrifice to carve out the time? 

[00:59:13] Jim Jansen: Right. No, that's huge. I mean, just that the intentionality.

Maybe what's missing that there isn't maybe a, a ton of new activity. It's the way I approach my interaction with my coworkers or my interaction with my kids or neighbors, et cetera. Oh, that's so good. Father, this has been fantastic. Thank you for being here. We're gonna link, uh, in the show notes, we'll link to, uh, our Lead of Good Council website.

We'll link to those church documents, uh, sorry, no pronunciation guide, but you'll, you'll be able to get right there. There'll be in English, so you can, uh, you can read them. Father, thank you. Thanks for being with us. 

[00:59:51] Fr. Mattingly: Thanks for having me, Jim. This was great. 

[00:59:53] Jim Jansen: Alright, everybody, uh, you know, somebody who needs to hear this, right?

Maybe somebody that just needs to be encouraged where you can just, you know, share this out and say, Hey, I thought of you. Thank you for what you're doing. I admire it. I appreciate it. Uh, someone that, you know, that's already living apostate or maybe somebody that's, that's wrestling, uh, with a sense of call.

Whoever it is, you let the Lord bring that person to mind, and when you get to your destination, share it out. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip.omaha.org.

God bless and see you next time.