[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast. So today I sit down with Father James Mallon. Now many of you know, uh, Father James Mallon, author of divine renovation and several wonderful books afterwards. We sit down and we talk about like his, his time as a pastor, his own conversion, the way his, his thoughts and his methods and his ideas changed over the years, uh, formed by his successes and frustrations.

In being a pastor, we talk a lot about bringing in the harvest. What does evangelization really mean? And what does it look like to bring evangelization to completion, to actually make a disciple? It's really a fun conversation. You're going to really appreciate it. So, take a listen. Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha.

I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go. I'm

James Mallon. Welcome to the EquipCast. How are you doing? 

[00:01:14] Fr. Mallon: Wonderful to be here. It's wonderful to be back in Omaha. 

[00:01:17] Jim Jansen: Yes. I'm really glad. I'm grateful. You were, we were just talking about this before we turned on the mics. 2017, you came out, did a conference for our clergy and their teams. It was one of the first times we, we had our, our pre spring, uh, group of key lay leaders with them and man, we packed the house.

We had a lot of fun. 

c00:01:37] Fr. Mallon: Do you want to hear a funny story about that trip? I wrote a new talk without planning to when I was, I was my flight from Chicago was delayed and I remember I was sitting in the lounge in Chicago and I started messing around with some ideas and I ended up creating a whole talk, which I ended up giving for the first time in your diocese.

Basically, the talk I was supposed to give, I threw away, I can't remember which one it was, and I did this new talk as well. And that talk became really foundational in. Kind of thinking about the church and especially the parish diocese in reality and actually made it was the basis of, uh, of my fourth book, which it just happened that, well, this is the Slovenian version, but yeah, is this anyway?

So, beyond the parish is called in English. So that I just realized that was on my way to your, your, uh, diocese in 2017. 

[00:02:31] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. That's really fun. Maybe for the, maybe not for the Slovenian translation, but you know, if there's ever a second edition English, you can give us a footnote. Yeah, you should.

Okay. Father, you, you know, you, you're an author, priest and pastor first. I love that you always make, make sure that that's first in your, in your biographies. Yeah. You started the divine renovation organization. I mean literally thousands of parishes have been impacted, coached. You're kind of a public figure now.

You're, you're, you're well known. I want to give you a chance to share your story, but I want to, I want to take you right back to when you were first ordained 1997, right? You're graduating St. Augustine Seminary in Toronto. 
Why did you think your life was going to be about as a priest then? And how's that different than the journey the Lord has led on led you on?

[00:03:31] Fr. Mallon: Wow. That's a great question. I remember a particular moment. In my ordination and, and it was right after I was vested, I just had this sense of, okay, let's get to work and it just so happened that the photographer. It was later on. I saw this actually photographed that that exact moment. I've got this photograph and it's like, the look of my face.

It's like, okay, let's, let's get to work. There's a conviction. If we, if we do certain things, Okay. we can start moving the ball in the right direction. I was pretty convinced of that. Now, would that guy have agreed with everything I'm doing now? I'm not sure, but he was pretty sure he knew what to do back then.

And, uh, maybe that's been part of my strength and also part of my weakness that I've always had, uh, like I say, I'm, I'm first and foremost, a parish priest, but, uh, with an opinionated parish priest, I've always, I've always had rather strong convictions. 

[00:04:34] Jim Jansen: How have those changed? 

[00:04:35] Fr. Mallon: I think for me, like, I was looking back, I was part of the John Paul II generation when I was, when I started at St.

Augustine Seminary, our class was theologically very orthodox. We were, we were called conservatives, but Although by the, by the 5th year, the, the 1st year theologians looked on us with great suspicion, the pendulum had swung so, so, so much, but I brought some of that into my early years in parish life. And my conviction was really.

What was really needed was holiness and orthodoxy. We had these ridiculous catechetical resources, very kind of confusing, ambiguous, wishy washy. And I was, I was just like, if we just get rid of all that garbage and get solid material for the kids and for the youth and, and good solid Catholic material for the adults, that'll change everything.

And if, you know, if I can strive for holiness and encourage others to do so, then we'll be fine. No, trust me, I'm not against holiness in orthodoxy. Those are still high values, especially today as we record it's All Saints Day. But what I realized, it took me about 10 years to realize this, that I only ever, you know, if, if previous to my arrival in a parish.

Anywhere between 5 to 10 percent of parishioners were engaged, I guess, or really awakened spiritually, my, my solution at best, maybe raise the bar to 15, but raised it to about 15%, maybe 20%. But I never broke through. They always hit this glass ceiling. It didn't matter how much I preached about the need for Catholics to.

Learn how to read scripture to, you know, read scripture to pray to grow in their understanding of their Catholic faith to, you know, belong, you know, serve in ministry, all the things disciples ought to do, like me preaching. With conviction about this, guess what? It only put a little dent in it. It didn't, it didn't move the need beyond 20%.

And for the other 80 percent of Catholics who heard me and went home and came back the next week, all I did was succeed in convincing them about how crappy they were at being Catholics. Because you see, it's not, knowledge is not enough. And, and I, and I realized in many ways, I laid up, I laid heavy burdens on people because I preach with conviction about this is what we should be doing.

And they, they understood me problem was not the understanding. The problem was one of desire. You know, you, you can, you can lecture, marry people all you want about what a, a good spouse ought to, what a good spouse is, how they ought to live, what they ought to do. But if. Spouses are not in love with each other.

It's, you're just going to burden people. You're going to weigh them down. Now, I had always been passionate about evangelization. I always knew that and believe that was part of the, the thing that we ought to do. And it was in those early years that I discovered alpha is a very fruitful tool for evangelization.

In the first 10 years or so of my life, I did it, but it was more of one tool among others. It was, it was one thing among many things. No, that's not entirely true. I, I knew that it was more important. I knew that it was primary, but not as, not as much as I did when I went to St. Benedict Parish. And I tell that story in my first book.

That's when I teamed up with Ron Huntley and we really doubled down on evangelization being primary. Like, we really Yeah. Made it primary, and that's when by sticking to that, and over the course of a number of years, that's when we broke through the glass ceiling. And that's what we entered into this whole other territory of actually seeing the culture of a parish shift, not just running a program off in the corner for 10, 15 percent of your parishioners.

But actually, breaking through and seeing the whole thing change, or the dominant culture change. We hit a critical mass, and that was the lightbulb moment. It was like, okay, this is, this is a different thing than what I was doing before. 

[00:09:09] Jim Jansen: Say more about, like, what it tangibly meant to put evangelization first.

Because I think, uh, you know, a lot of people's like, yep, you know, like the, the, you'll read a papal quote. You'll see, they're like, yep, that's us. And, and it's like, well, is it us? Like, what did it, what did it practically mean to put evangelization first? 

[00:09:30] Fr. Mallon: Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. Cause if you'd asked me in previous times, I would have said evangelization is first.

I was always trying to, you know, preach that and, and I, in previous parishes. So, in running alpha, what I did is that in the fall. Semester, so to speak, or the fall church season, I'd run alpha after Christmas. I would run on a follow up to alpha because my primary concern at that point was the theology. I want member orthodoxy and holiness.

I was very concerned, rightfully concerned about the catechetical holes in alpha. I mean, alpha, I remember hearing, uh, it was a quote, someone sent me a quote from Cardinal Burke, and it was like the catechetical tool alpha should never be used in a Catholic contest. And I was like. I totally agree, it should never be used as a catechetical tool.

It's not a catechetical tool, it's an evangelistic tool. And so, my primary concern was, fill in the blanks, or, because the theological problem is like, 98 percent of the issues are not what is said in Alpha, it's what's not said in Alpha. 

[00:10:35] Jim Jansen: Meaning like, the Eucharist just doesn't come up. 

[00:10:37] Fr. Mallon: Yeah, there's a whole bunch of things that are not said, or even You know, the, the teaching on the, the last week on the church, I mean, everything that it said in those videos is great stuff, but it's like, it's not the whole, it's not, there's more basic ecclesiology, et cetera, et cetera.

But, but that's a solid pedagogical tool. You know, we did that, learned that in high school science classes, you know, you come into grade 11, they're like, remember what we told you last year about the, you know, how molecules work. And how the atom works well, it's not entirely. It's not the whole truth.

Here's the whole truth here. So that's I get no problem with that. But so, I, I would generally do a follow up. I create. In fact, I created a course called Catholicism to a 1, which was an 8-week catechetical follow up on alpha. And so, I'd run. You know, evangelization to fall and the follow up in the new year, and it never really got alpha moving, mobilizing is that pump and that was what we changed.

So, so here's, here's a quick framework of how to think about it. Like, I'm thinking to the parish I'm in now, like, so I came, came here 4 years ago. It was a merger of five dying communities into one during covid no history of evangelization discipleship, like, just nothing. And it's like, okay, where do we even start?

Wow. And 2 things you have to invest in disproportionately evangelization and leadership, because these things that you need your best leaders. And here's, here's the difference. If you obviously, if you start doing alpha and people have conversion, then you want to naturally draw them into a discipleship process.

But how do you do that if you don't have one created? The temptation is to say, okay, look at this, we've made some disciples. Now let's drop, let's, let's put a pause on evangelizing and move over and start designing adult catechesis or a discipleship group. And let's get our, bring the, our leaders in so we can have good small group leaders.

And what happens is. The momentum you got in running evangelization just peters out and dies when you eventually go back, go back to it. It's like, you remember those old cars you had to like wind up? 

[00:12:51] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, I mean, I never actually did it, but yes, I've seen the videos. 

[00:12:56] Fr. Mallon: Well, remember seeing the, like the Laurel and Hardy movies, right?

Yeah. So, or like, it's a pump. You have to prime the pump again. You've got to, you lose momentum. And that was one of the things that we learned is that, and if you lose momentum, you'll, here's the other thing. You'll never create the culture. Because creating a culture requires you to, to keep doing it and keep doing it and keep explaining why you're doing it and why you're still doing it and preach the why, preach the why, communicate the why, keep doing it, keep doing it, keep doing it.

And eventually, of course, you, you have to build out the next piece of the, of the, of the process. You have to. You know, begin to build your processes for adult catechesis and small groups and all of this, but not in a way that strips your best leaders from the primary thing, which is out, which is evangelization.

If you think about it, people say, might say, well, we want, we really have a desire to see dynamic celebrations of the liturgy, you know, so worship. You're never going to have dynamic celebrations of the liturgy if people don't have, are not in love with God. Yes. If people are just, majority of people are just there out of obligation, guess what?

Your liturgy is going to be boring and drab, it doesn't matter. Ministry, you know, people want, we want volunteers, we want people to serve, serve the poor, do this, do this. But if people are not motivated by, Love of God and neighbor and a conviction about the call for God's kingdom to come in here as it is in heaven.

You guess what your pool of ministry people or volunteers, whatever you want to call them is going to dry up. You're not going to have warm, caring, loving community. If your members are not motivated to, to form those communities and convicted of their need for it, because that's another thing that happens with alpha.

When you truly come alive in your faith, it's like, Oh my goodness. I never before this. I never thought I needed to be in a small group. Now. I know that if I want to keep My faith vibrant, I need more than just an anonymous gathering on, on, on Sunday mornings, etc. Right? So, or, or even discipleship, adult discipleship, you're not going to desire to grow as an adult believer, if you don't care, if you've been awakened.

So, evangelization literally is the pump of the entire life of the parish. And when you keep the pump going the whole time, it maintains, in a sense, the water pressure into all, into all these areas of renewal. And that was the one thing that was that was different from previous times, because I would always do a little bit of evangelization and then drop it and go off and do all these other things.

And so, what is it? What does it look like on the ground? Well, John Paul, the second, I think it was in 1982 or 84, perhaps it was 80 to 84 and address the congregation of the clergy. And this quote was, I got this quote from that weird kind of document that was released about five years ago about the evangelizing mission of the, of the parish that was like. 

[00:15:54] Jim Jansen: Out from the congregation for clergy.

[00:15:57] Fr. Mallon: Yeah. So, it was like this weird hybrid document that was like really like cool and amazing. And then, then it was like, it was written by a Canon lawyer. It was really weird. But anyway, I love Canon lawyers. Some of my best friends are Canon lawyers. It was in that quote, it said. Pope John Paul, Saint John Paul II said this, that evangelization is the cornerstone of all pastoral activity, the demands of which are primary, preeminent and preferential.

[00:16:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:16:22] Fr. Mallon: And we had, you know, in terms of the divine renovation model, we had just kind of come up with our new logo and it talked about the primacy of evangelization. I didn't know John Paul said this. So, when I read that, I was like, you got to be kidding me. He was like way ahead of us. Oh yeah. Who knew?

Yeah. The primacy evangelization though. Let me ask you a question. Now. You're talking about primacy, eminence, and preferentially. Well, what did he actually mean by those? How do we understand those words? We could talk it. We could talk for an hour about that, but however you understand those words. Can you think right now?

Of a parish, well, maybe you can, because you've been coaching parishes, but in general for everyone listening right now, can you think of a parish where in effect evangelization is actually primary that it's meaning it's the 1st thing that new people will encounter in a parish? It's primary. It's primary in importance.

And you sense that. Okay. So primary importance really is about preeminence, right? It's the most preeminent thing. We're clear. We teach that this is the most, most important thing. And it's preferential, meaning we openly, we don't hide the fact that it's the most important thing. We openly, we prefer it. We, we are, it's, it's preferential.

Can anyone think of a parish where that's actually the case? And most people when I ask that question, they say, no, I can't think single parish, most parishes don't do any, don't do any evangelization at all when they scratch the surface, they realize, oh, the thing we were calling evangelization, that's actually catechesis.

Or it's actually something else. And if parishes do do evangelization, it's often checking the box. Let me ask you a question. Okay. You've been in church world for enough time. Parishes. If you say something is primary, show me your budget line. We had parishes who said. We had zero, but our diocese in the templates, they give parishes, not, not, not my guys, as I heard this recently from a priest, the diocesan template for budgets has no line for evangelization, but yet it's the most important thing we do.

It's preeminent. It's preferential. If you have staff, do you have a staff member? What are the chances proportionally for a parish to have a catechetical staff member versus an evangelization staff member? What would you say? 

[00:18:47] Jim Jansen: Oh gosh, it's probably, probably four to one. If there is someone. 

[00:18:53] Fr. Mallon: And that four to one is that, that's pretty amazing.

That's that, that would be very, and my, that would be like an, an amazing diocese. Sure. Okay. Right. Right. 

[00:19:03] Jim Jansen: Four to one, which which is my bias limited experience. 

[00:19:06] Fr. Mallon: You guys have got a great diocese. 

[00:19:07] Jim Jansen: Yeah, we, we do. 

[00:19:08] Fr. Mallon: Own it. You can own it. 

[00:19:09] Jim Jansen: You're right. But I say no probably. I mean, if you're asking me to now broaden my view to North America, the United States and Canada, it's, yeah, it's probably one in 25, 1 in 50.

[00:19:20] Fr. Mallon: I agree. But one in 25, you're right. And no, here's, if you have a hybrid position, if someone is hired to do evangelization and Cates. And it's, and it's supposed to be 50 50, you know, halftime this halftime that in effect, what will it end up being? 

[00:19:36] Jim Jansen: Oh, I mean, 80 20 at best. 

[00:19:39] Fr. Mallon: Exactly. You must have read my notes.

I've been passing you all the answers. Like, that's what I say. It's like, it'll be 80 20 because guess what? The culture will, will shape it to be so. 

[00:19:48] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:19:49] Fr. Mallon: Because we don't, we do not effectively view evangelization as being primary, preeminent, and preferential, no matter what the documents say, or what the popes say, or what our bishop says, because guess what?

Culture eats strategy for breakfast, you know, we got that old, that old quote. So, transforming a parish means really transforming the culture with regard to evangelization. So that's a little bit of, of what that means, uh, and eventually you'll know you've, you've changed the culture. When it's really owned, when a critical mass of prisoners have got the vision of what this means, when there's regularly testimonies and the open fruitfulness of transformed lives, changed lives, event, the, the language evangelization is owned by the majority of people, and it's just, it's accepted that this is what we do here.

All the staff are fully on board. They're not siloed around it. That's when that happens, then the long-term impact is enormous because that culture will drive all the other dimensions of parish life in time. You can't fast track this. This is the problem. I just want to make the, you know, you know, like, we started this divine renovation model thing a year ago, and it's this still hasn't happened.

It's like, give me a break. a year ago. 

[00:21:06] Jim Jansen: Yeah, it takes a little, yeah, it takes a bit. Okay, so I have to ask a follow up question because I think, you know, here we are, we're kind of nerding out evangelization catechesis. We're referencing these documents. Father, for those listening who are like the non nerdies, right, give them a definition.

Like, what is evangelization? But if you could, contrast it a little bit to some things that we commonly think of as evangelization that, that actually aren't. 

[00:21:35] Fr. Mallon: Yeah, so I would say, Theologically, I would say evangelization is making disciples of Jesus Christ, which is distinct from forming disciples. So, we, we confuse these, it's like, well, think of parenting, you know, there's raising your kids and making babies.

That's hot. Yeah. Two very different things. Yes. One of them generally considered to be more fun than the other, but you've got, you've got two related. I mean, here's the thing. If you're. If you're making babies, you should, I hope you're planning to raise your kids. But if you're, if you're not making babies, then any discussion around how to best raise your kids is, is absolutely academic.

It's, it's, it's almost meaningless. So that's the difference. So, making disciples versus forming disciples. Catechesis is a dimension of, of formation. I think of the, uh, Pateceta document put up by the Latin American bishops. 2007 and when they met with Pope Benedict and they had this great thing where they laid out the, what they call the stages informing missionary disciples and, you know, that formation that it was like this 3rd phase, like, phase 1 was like evangelization, get charisma phase 2 was conversion and phase 3 was, Was formation and it was like, this is where sacraments and catechesis come.

They come here and phase three. Whereas in parishes, it's all we do is sacraments and catechesis. We skip over evangelization. So, what is, let me give you another example. The difference between not caring and not knowing, like we, we treat. Everything is like, you know, if you've only got one tool in your toolbox, if all you've got is a hammer, then that's the answer to every problem.

And, and so we treat everything almost as if it's a problem of not knowing. Well, for a lot of people, like, I started my opening story. It wasn't that people didn't know, it's that people didn't care. The heart had never been awakened. They'd never had an encounter with Jesus, an experience of God's love.

You know, God's Romans 5, 7 of God's love being poured into our hearts. They'd never come into a personal relationship with Jesus and never experienced the love of God evangelization is all of those things. It's kind of like it includes the, you know, begins maybe with the charisma evangelization is a whole process, but it ultimately leads to making a disciple.

So, here's the thing. People sometimes say, “Oh, we did a funeral, and we were really nice to people and that's evangelization.” Well, no, it's not. It might be a stage of event. It might be pre-evangelization. If I figured when I do a funeral, if 80 percent of the people leave thinking, you know, those guys aren't as bad as I thought, that's pre-evangelization.

I've, I've, I've prepared the soil to perhaps receive the seed. That's not evangelization. Let's be clear about it. Oh, I might have done an amazing homily. And you can say, well, that's evangelization. Well, it might be evangelistic, but it's not evangelization. Because here's the thing. It doesn't matter how many seeds you so if no one brings in the harvest, how many seeds you so if nothing grows, well, we can we contend the growing of the of the crop.

But ultimately, you know, if you're a farmer, if you don't bring in a harvest, you starve. Transcribed Wow. And we can pat ourselves on the back by how much we plow the fields and how we fertilize the fields and how many, how much seed we chuck around and how we dig around and care for the shoots that pop up.

But if we don't bring in the harvest. We starve and so evangelization is the full thing leading up to bringing in the harvest to make disciples of Jesus Christ. And I often use an analogy akin to marriage, but usually when I tried to do this in a, in a live setting, it always backfires on me that I'll find a married couple.

And the best situation is when I see this. Before you met each other, did you hear about each other? Yeah. Yeah. My, my girlfriend told me about this guy who she thought would be really great for me to, to, uh, you know, to go out on a date with. And so there was, I say, okay, that was like the, the curriculum. I, you heard a message about someone you didn't know.

And then I say, do you remember the first time you met each other? Yeah. Yeah. It was, we get introduced and it was kind of awkward. And I said, “So you had a personal encounter. That's good. You wouldn't, you wouldn't be married now if you didn't have the personal encounter, but a personal encounter isn't the same as being married.”

And then I said, you started going out with each other, right? Yeah, we started going out and you developed a personal relationship. Yes, we developed a personal relationship, but even though you had a personal relationship, that didn't mean you were married. And they're like, yeah, that's right. And I said, at one point, that personal relationship, stepped towards being a marriage because someone asked the question, and someone made a decision.

You decided to give your life to that person consciously. But did that mean you were married? No, we still weren't married. Why? What was missing? There was no public acknowledgement of it because it's not, it's not done until it's publicly celebrated even within the church. And that's the whole thing of You know, I think of what the Parasita document said, that the process of conversion will always be consummated either in the sacrament of baptism or the sacrament of reconciliation.

There generally is going to be a sacramental moment. 

[00:27:03] Jim Jansen: Wow. It uses the consummation language. 

[00:27:06] Fr. Mallon: Yes, I'm pretty sure it does. I think it does. And then I'll joke and say, okay, so at that point you were married and from the day of your wedding onwards, you didn't have to learn a single other thing or grow in any other way.

And of course, everyone laughs because they know that's not true. That that the 1st day of your marriage is the 1st day of the rest of your life, which is going to be in a lifelong commitment to walking on a path towards maturity and growth. That's. Being a disciple as opposed to becoming a disciple. So, evangelization is the making of disciples. Evangelization involves charisma, personal encounter with Jesus, helping people to nurture a personal relationship with Jesus, bringing that relationship into commitment to Jesus as Savior and as Lord.

The Lordship of Jesus and bringing them to the sacraments and that's the making of disciples. So, guess what? You, most people are generally not going to do that just because someone showed up at a funeral. Now, can it play a role? Of course it can. God can do anything and work in any way. But Evangelization, it's driven by relational currency.

You need to invest relationally in people. We need to be clear of what it is and what it isn't because people generally will say, they'll call, you know, a coffee social. That's evangelization or this is evangelization catechesis. Look at how many people we put through catechetical programs. There was a recent survey done by a Canadian company called the Angus Reid Institute in February, April 2022.

I think it was. And in that report of religious experience in Canada, 34%, 34, 38%, I can't remember, but 34 percent of Canadian Catholics, quote unquote, said they had never experienced the presence of God. Never. Wow. But they went through our Sunday school programs. They went to Catholic schools; they'd never experienced the presence of God.

You can do catechesis and not evangelize people. Trust me. That was my reality growing up as well. Right. 

[00:29:22] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:29:22] Fr. Mallon: If we call everything evangelization, we just, well, if everything is evangelization, then nothing is evangelization. Here's, I'll say one other thing. Go back to, 1975, Pope Paul VI, Evangelii Nunciandi, an amazing document.

He said, sooner or later, the witness of life must give way to the word of life. He said, there is no evangelization worth its name if the name, the teachings, the person, the promises of Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, are not proclaimed. So always and everywhere has the expression of life. Explicit proclamation of Jesus.

So don't tell me something's evangelization if there's no explicit proclamation of Jesus Christ and a call to conversion. So, what you're calling evangelization might be pre-evangelization. And let me tell you, pre-evangelization is very, very, very, very important. It's very important, but it's not evangelization.

So, let's be clear. I'll tell you, I'll keep saying, I'll tell you one final story. A priest friend of mine, it's really funny. He said a couple of years ago he was preaching on evangelization, and this lady came up to him. She said, Father, if our bake sale isn't evangelization, then I don't know what is. And he said, “You know something, you're absolutely right.

[00:30:35] Jim Jansen: Oh, Father. I mean, I could nerd out about so much of what you said, but I want to, I want to ask you, zero in on the harvest. And if you could tell some stories about, right, harvest that you've been blessed To see to help reap because I think that is you're listening. You laid out the process so clearly and so beautifully.

I think that's that's the experience that is perhaps often missing. What, what does it look like to harvest? 

[00:31:06] Fr. Mallon: And Jesus said, you know, the harvest is plentiful. Our we operate as if he said, the harvest is pitiful. The question is, do we actually believe he said, lift up your eyes and look to the fields and see that they are white and ready for the harvest.

And how often do we fail to lift up our eyes? We, we often, this is the problem we talk about, Oh, we have to evangelize our own people in the pews, which is true. Yeah. Yeah. But Jesus says, lift up your eyes, look out, and you'll put out into the deep water and let down your nets for a catch. I know I just crossed metaphors.

I just moved from harvest to, to catching fish. 

[00:31:47] Jim Jansen: Yeah, we're kind of landlocked here in Nebraska, so if you could stick with the farming stuff, you, you were on really good territory there. 

[00:31:54] Fr. Mallon: So, uh, Yeah, he says, pray the Lord of the harvest to send in laborers to the harvest. You know, one of the, one of our problems as Catholics is that we, we used to use that scripture quote at the beginning of the prayerful vocations to priesthood, as if bringing in the harvest was the job of the priest.

That, that's number one problem. And so, it's not, it's the, the laborers are the baptized. Not the priesthood referred to the baptism and so we we want people who have a conversion to Christ the conversion to Christ Church and a conversion to Christ cause that they actually own the mission to bring in the harvest.

[00:32:29] Jim Jansen: Wait, wait, that's good. Repeat that a conversion to a conversion to Christ Church and a conversion to Christ cause Allah evangelization making disciples. 

[00:32:39] Fr. Mallon: Mission. Mission, yeah. Primarily evangelization. But you know, the, the cause of, of the kingdom going to the peripheries, feeding the hungry, the giving drink to the, everything that he said was the mission.

But I mean, at the heart of that is the, is the making of disciples and teaching them to do what he told us to do. Conversion of Christ, I mean, again, that, that's the evangelization, that's what drives all this whole thing. Conversion to Christ Church doesn't just mean going to mass on Sunday, it means.

Aspect of community and, and, and then Christ cause is really taking on the mission becoming as well. Francis is made popular the term missionary disciple, which are great because. A disciple has to become an apostle that the apostle, the word apostle is comes from the Greek apostolate, which means to send, which is the Greek version of the, of the Latin word that gives us the word missionary.

So, to be an apostle is to be a missionary, a missionary disciple, a disciple is a student. So, if you think about it, a missionary disciple is a, is a sent student. 

[00:33:42] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. 

[00:33:43] Fr. Mallon: We never stopped being learners. We never stopped being students, and we never stopped being sent. And our primary mission is evangelization.

So bringing in the harvest, I think, you know, my can, one of my driving convictions was always What if, imagine what would, what the world would be like if every parish truly was a, was a, an outpost to the Great Commission from which people were sent into the community, into their families, they were empowered, they were fed, they were nourished, and sent out for the sake of Christ's cause, sent out as missionary disciples.

What if every parent was a place where people could hear the good news? Encounter Jesus, come into a personal relationship, make, make commitments, that whole process of, of discipleship and bringing them right to the sacraments. 
What if, what if every parish that happened on a regular basis? And in fact, what if that was the primary focus of a parish as opposed to most parishes, which sadly can be what Pope Francis called self-referential.

And he said, this pre conclave speech, I know this was quite a while ago, but he said that. The self-referential church is a sick church. It's a church in itself, of itself, for itself. And sadly, when we look at what's under the hood in most parishes, we see it's not the dynamics of, of missionary discipleship, it's the dynamic of consumer, religious consumerism.

[00:35:08] Jim Jansen: Oh, wow. Okay. Break that out. Yeah. 

[00:35:10] Fr. Mallon: Well, yeah. We're, we, we know what we want. Basically, the starting thing is the, this is actually all about us. It's all for us. And as I have my preferences and don't mess with my perhaps, what are the key values of consumers? It's low prices and convenience, which is kind of ironic when you think about the fact that we worship the crucified Lord that that we've somehow made this about convenience.

I mean, I think of that quote of Pope Francis from Evangelii Gaudium, I think it's paragraph 27, when he said, I dream of the missionary option, the missionary impulse capable of transforming everything so that our times and schedules, ways of doing things will be suitably, language and structure will be suitably channeled for the evangelization of today's world rather than for our self-preservation.

And I think of, you know, times and schedules, I mean, have you ever tried changing a mass parish? He could get the death. Yeah. Oh yeah. 

[00:36:02] Jim Jansen: It's hard. It's so hard. Father, you got to see this, this like parish as a missionary outpost. You got to see that start to happen at St. Benedict's in Halifax, like, what did you see?

Like, like what was happening? What were the fruits? How was mass different? How was, you know, Easter vigil different? 

[00:36:27] Fr. Mallon: This takes place over, over time. Canada, Nova Scotia is a very, very secular culture. We saw, you know, people really experiencing Jesus. Encountering the Holy Spirit coming, you know, experiencing spiritual friendship through alpha and other follow-up programs that we did.

We saw it build to being again this thing in the corner to becoming just an accepted way of life in the parish. We saw it slowly transform our experience of the Eucharist as there was people were no longer anonymous. Strangers that the value of hospitality went up and up and up to become very intentional about it.

Celebrations of the Eucharist were more, more beautiful, more moving. We saw, you know, people stepping forward to serve in ministry like never before. People coming into small groups, which had never been done before. I mean, I think right now, you know, the, the priest who took over at St. Benedict for me has, you know, has made the parish even better than when I was there.

They have about 1600 people on a weekend now, and they, I think 1000 people are in small groups. 1000 people out of 1600 small groups. It's incredible and you see, I think right now they have over 200 people doing alpha with the, uh, with the age being quite low. So you see a whole sensitivity towards people who are on the outside that we actually expect people to be there who are maybe don't know where they are in their faith that there's an awareness, consciousness and people own it.

They actually own the mission. So, I saw that happen slowly. I'll tell you another story, and this is something that's going on right now is a young priest, a young seminarian, actually, a couple of years ago, who came to do an internship with us. He was from Toulouse in France, and he wanted to do an internship with divine renovation.

So, he, he worked. Kind of halftime there, and then he went up and spent some time at St. Benedict. Well, last summer, he was ordained a priest, and I went back to Toulouse for his ordination. It was a great pleasure and privilege to be there. His bishop put him into, uh, what they call the student parish, because they had a whole parish set up to reach the, there's a large, very large student population in Toulouse because of the universities.

He reached out to me about six months ago, he did a major problem. He had a hundred and right now, last time, well, the last time I spoke to him a couple months ago, he's got 140 young people in the RCIA process looking to be baptized. 

[00:39:02] Jim Jansen: Wow. 

[00:39:03] Fr. Mallon: He predicts that by the Easter vigil, he have 200, 200 young people.

He says they're getting five requests a week for baptism. That's so good. From young people, the harvest, the harvest is plentiful. Laborers are few. And no, if anyone's been following the news, do you see there's part of our larger shift in France, France, record numbers of adults coming to the sacraments this year, but not all parishes had 200 people.


I mean, the whole thing is there are some parishes in Toulouse area that have zero because it doesn't matter how many fish are swimming by the mouth of the harbor. If your fishing boats are tied up in the nets, sorry, I'm using fishing metaphors, it doesn't matter how big, let me see, it doesn't matter how much corn is out there in the fields or how tall the corn is, if the combine harvesters ain't moving, they're in the [inaudible].

[00:40:00] Jim Jansen: Oh, excellent job. Look at that. No one would, no one would ever know you're from Nova Nova Scotia. That was fantastic, father. Father, I want to go back because, you know. You mentioned Ron Huntley, mutual friend of mine, uh, of ours, really grateful for, for Ron. You know, you've been kind of the spokesperson for what happened at St.

Benedict's and, you know, of course, you founded Divine Renovation. Whenever you get the chance, you talk about the team. Ron and a whole host of others who helped make this happen. Talk about the role they played in this renewal process. 

[00:40:37] Fr. Mallon: Yeah, it's the thing. People are like, it's so funny. It's like You know, I say to people, you know, I'm, I'm actually by myself.

I'm not that great. They're like, Oh yeah, yeah, sure. Father James for the James. I'm like, yeah, come and spend a week, a week with me. You'll figure that out very quickly by yourself. And it's one of the, one of the, the principal convictions of our model of leadership and leadership is so key. It was one of our, one of our keys is the prime, the best of leadership because the pastoral conversion that we need to undergo to get to create the cultures that bring life.

None of these, none of these things are things that happen just by themselves. Like if you, if you do nothing, the things that make the difference will never happen by themselves. In fact, the things that make things worse, Generally will happen by themselves and so conversion is always led obviously through the Holy Spirit, but we cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

So, leadership is important. And 1 of our starting principles and leadership is there's no such thing as a balanced person. Like, we think, oh, you know, the goal of formation is to form balanced people. Forget it. You're wasting your time, everyone is weird, everyone's warped, everyone is uniquely and wonderfully made, beautifully made, we have wonderful, unique strengths, and we have terrible gaps in our formation, in our gifts, we have weaknesses, and so therefore, Don't try to do this alone simple as that because while there is no such thing as a well-rounded person there can be a well-rounded team there can be if you're intentional about building a team around you and that's what needs to happen and I found that out.

The hard way I found it out painfully by making all kinds of mistakes by hurting all kinds of people in a way that not only did I not intend to hurt people I didn't even know I hurt them because people were too scared to tell me. To what I was being an idiot. Mm. Uh, Ron was never Scared to tell me that I was being an idiot and so it's like having people around you who number 1 are totally sold out on the vision like they're as committed as you are.

Secondly, that they this trust and respect, like, it's not because otherwise it's politics, right? But we're on the same team, you're committed to the vision and you love each other, you know, Jesus says, I call you friends when you're, you're, you're friends. And when you're, you're able to learn how to do conflict well, because here's the thing, if you get passionate people around you, competent, passionate people, you're going to disagree, not on the direction of travel, but on how the best way, what the best way is to get there.

And the final thing is, is balance of strength. If you've got people who are strong in the areas that you're not, it's a total game changer. And that's what I learned over the years that you have to have, you have to invest uniquely in those people, which means many priests changing the structure of your ministry, because That's not how we're formed as priests were formed to be everyone's personal chaplain that that's the ideal priest is to be a philosopher monk priest chaplain who's available 24 seven to anyone who wants to see you, you know, the, that's, that's this, this bronze image of a, of a priest who's always on everyone's speed dial.

Uh, and uh, look, if you don't wanna lead at all or really invest in the things that bring about pastoral conversion, then you can live that model. But guess what It puts, it puts the, the priest as the bottleneck of everything. Mm-hmm. Of the short. You can work until you die from exhaustion and you only hit about 5% capacity of what your, the gifts in your parish.

[00:44:24] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:25] Fr. Mallon: Because the gifts, the, you know, leadership, if leadership is the gift that unlocks all the other gifts, guess what, the gifts that God has given is that some will be apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers. These are not, in the early church and scriptures, they're not about referring to apostolic offices or the offices or responsibilities of the ordained, they're talking about the gifts of the baptized.

These gifts exist among the people of God. I mean, again, this is the central, one of the key central insights of the Second Vatican Council. We've got to learn how to lead differently if we're going to see, uh, parish unlocked for the sake of the kingdom. And, and that leading differently isn't going to happen if you don't have a good team of people around you.

[00:45:06] Jim Jansen: Well, and you just, you just referenced Vatican II. I think we would share this. This is just good ecclesiology. This isn't some sort of compromise. Well, I guess the old model isn't working, so we better try this just because it's effective. It turns out this is, this is who we were supposed to be all along.

[00:45:25] Fr. Mallon: Man, it's crazy. You know, I remember my spiritual director, my, my pre theology seminary. He'd say to me, James, there are two books that you should be dog eared and falling apart. He was also one of my Greek profs. He says your Greek, New Testament, your, your, your New Testament and your volume of the documents of Vatican two.

I'm happy to say that, uh, my Vatican two document is, is, is, is falling apart. 

[00:45:52] Jim Jansen: Oh, good job. Yeah. You, you tore that up. Good job. 

[00:45:55] Fr. Mallon: It's dense stuff. It's rich stuff. It's amazing. And I think we're just now 60 years out able to finally receive what the, what the tax actually says, uh, because we. And the years following the council, we only had eyes for the, for the innovation.

We couldn't see the, we couldn't see the synthesis of the, of the whole. We only saw what was novel. And we, I think a lot of thinkers just, you know, unraveled the novel thread of thought from the, from the, from the tradition, the more traditional thread of thought, and they, they extrapolated the novel to somehow say that, What they were advocating was somehow in the spirit of Vatican two, and I think it was a huge mistake.

So, and we left things at such a superficial level of liturgical questions and posture and language and arguments over power that imitated more a worldly understanding of these things. So, I think we're just now in a place where we can really begin to digest really what the council said. It's talked about what beautifully we talked about the lay apostolate and.

And, uh, and just wonderful. 

[00:47:06] Jim Jansen: Mm hmm. Father, I want to go back. Imagining someone listening to this and this could be a priest could be a lay leader. They're like, okay, fine. Where did you find these people? How did you, how did you call them in to help? I'd love to have some help. I'd love to have talented help that have gifts that I don't have.

I don't know where to find him. 

[00:47:28] Fr. Mallon: Yeah, so a number of things. I mean, I'm kind of living through this again in this new parish, starting from scratch, because I went, you know, St. Benedict, we had, I think when I left, we had over 20 staff. And then when I came here, we really didn't have any staff at all. And that was a challenge in terms of, you know, it was like going from sixth gear.

I had to get down to, I figured, well, I probably have to go to third gear. So, I go from sixth gear down to third gear. And then if anyone drives a standard or a manual transmission. There are times when 3rd gear is too high and you and then you're gonna get down to 2nd and then eventually realize no, baby, I'm going to 1st gear back 1st.

I'm going to start over again and building a team, whether it's your staff team or your leadership team, which. You know, in St. Benedict, my leadership team was all senior staff members who themselves supported teams of paid staff. And every staff member then supporting ministry leaders in my new parish, my first leadership team were all parish parishioners.

They were volunteers. None of them were paid. So, I've experienced both ends of it, and the dynamics, the dynamics work. The composition might be different, but same dynamics. And so, I think. You begin with the people that you've got and in every parish has gifted people, uh, people's gifts may not be affirmed yet, but you've, I think that's a starting point is again, build outwards from where you are, if you don't have a staff, then put together a leadership team right away.

So look out at who are the people in your parish who there that are passionate about the mission of the, of the parish who are respected, who are people of wisdom. Some of them, you might be surprised who those people are. Pray, begin to pray, say, Lord, help me to, to recognize, uh, who I might invite. And then I'd say, used to say to priests, go and drink a lot of coffee.

You've got to meet with people and open your heart to people about this is, this is what I see in the parish. This is what I believe and dream. It could be, does this, does this speak to your heart and you'll, you'll find other people who are equally passionate and then you can begin getting by, you know, putting together a leadership team, you know, use a tool that, you know, those of you in Omaha know all about strengths finders.

It comes, you've got the head office right there. We use, we use, uh, Clifton strengths finders or Gallup strength finders to that tool to help us with the different domains to build balanced teams. And go from there and at least that's the beginning of a team there. They can be late people. They're not necessarily staff.

And then when you go to start building staff, I think, again, what is the most critical thing? If you're in a parish by yourself with no staff, then the 1st thing, if the 1st thing you have to do is start doing adult evangelization, then the question. You as a priest has to have to ask is, do you, what, what do you find more life-giving doing evangelization or doing administration?

There's actually, there are actually some priests who love doing admin work. So, if that's you, then you do the admin and hire someone else to do the evangelization. If it's the other way around, you do the evangelization and hire someone to do the admin. And in time that investment in evangelization will begin to yield.

More people on fire for the Lord for the and if you teach on giving, you're giving will start going up, which means you can plan your next hire as you slowly begin to build and invest. And here's something else that I learned the last couple of parishes. I've been in is that in every parish, there are incredibly gifted lay people who have recently retired and bring with them a whole barrel load of wisdom and experience.

And some of them are going to be fired up. If you start preaching teaching about what God is calling you to do in your parish, they, people will step forward. And right now, in my parish here, and in my last parish, I've got two volunteer, I've actually got three volunteer staff members. One is, but he doesn't get paid, but I've got two others, and they serve the parish almost full-time positions, and they bring incredible talent and experience.

There are people like this in every single parish. Yes. So, ask them. And then when the more people you have around you, the more eyes you have, as people will recognize the gifts and others. And as you. And you slowly build a team and sometimes yeah, sometimes you might look, especially the staff, you, you don't know who you've got until you've got them.

And sometimes you don't know that you've got, you don't know that you've got the wrong person until you've hired them too. And so it is, it is tricky. It is hard work. It does take time to. To build a team to build a healthy team. There's no shot to it. 

[00:52:22] Jim Jansen: Well, and they change too, right? I mean, leadership teams grow, they'll evolve.

Some people cycle on, some people cycle off. 

[00:52:30] Fr. Mallon: Yes, absolutely. 

[00:52:31] Jim Jansen: Father, I want to, so 2017, that's when We first met that's also when you stepped away from parish ministry to serve as the vicar for parish renewal and leadership support at the archdiocese. What did your time at the at the diocese teach you?

And what do you wish, what do you wish diocesan leaders knew about parishes, and what do you wish parish leaders knew about the diocese? 

[00:52:59] Fr. Mallon: Boy, that's a great, it's a great point. I stepped into that role as well because we were beginning to grapple at a diocesan level of the need to restructure, you know, to change, to downsize the infrastructure of our diocese.

Especially in the city areas, we had church buildings a mile down the road from each other and so there was a real need for serious change. What did I learn? I learned how easy it is for us to be, to be tribal. What do I mean by that? It's every, most parish priest's favorite hobby is to, you know, blame the chancery, you know.

Remember a couple years ago, we did a Conference, a U. S. national U. S. conference in Dallas, and this priest was being interviewed from up front sharing his testimony. And he, he referenced the chancery, and he said, yeah, my dice is we refer to the chance. He is more door, and everyone was not laughing, you know, because it was like, yeah, everyone knew the joke.

So, when you're in a parish. Those people are just there. They could just leave us alone. We'd be fine. Those people. And then when I worked in the chancery, those people were the parishes. Yeah. So, I'd say the first thing I learned is that there's the, the brokenness of the human condition. It doesn't matter what side of the wire that you're on, you've, you've got to deal with that.

And we need to guard our hearts because we're, you know, the work of. Pastoral renewal is a conversion, and it's, you know, it's about the work of the kingdom, and there is an enemy of the kingdom who sows evil seed, and that seed is sown in hearts, and it's sown through the places where the evil one can sow seed are the cracks that open up, drop down a seed.

That's division, you know, and I'd say that, you know, I, I used to come, you know, complain about those people. Then it became one of those people bothered without bothering pastors and telling them what to do. Speaking on that, I learned. Generally, uh, input is best received when it is freely requested. And often to Paris leaders, we say like, you know, we sometimes have this fixation about, about, you know, getting everyone to do this or everyone involved or everyone on board and, you know, making sure everyone shows up and you end up chasing, you know, it's like herding cats.

You're chasing the people who just don't really want to do it. Don't really want to be there. And I'd say. It's your time. Don't write those people off. Don't ever do that, but invest in the people who want it. And it's like the good soil. It's like the good soil produces 30, 40, 100-fold. And if you invest in the good soil and the fruit is evident, eventually a lot of the people who might not have been that interested will slowly pull their curiosity, but will eventually get the better of them.

So, invest. You know, throw the seed wide, you know, invite everyone say, possibly say, this is what we're doing, you know, send out the communications, keep people, you know, send out the newsletters and let people know what's happening, but don't badger people. Don't chase people who are not interested. You're only going to make them hate you even more.

[00:56:25] Jim Jansen: You are right on target. I mean, thank you. That's so, that's so good. 

[00:56:29] Fr. Mallon: The other thing. As well as I think in chanceries, the other way around, too, is that, oh, there's so many things I, I have in my book beyond the parish and one of the last chapters, I have a whole section of the book on how to improve relationship between parishes and a diocese, you know, it's, it can get quite complicated, but I believe, and I believe in many ways that just as so many of the systems in a parish are designed for a Christendom maintenance model of church.

You can transform a parish, but if things don't are, are also transformed at a diocesan level, you're going to have major problems because again, underneath all of our pastoral modalities and presumptions are a set of principles. And if those principles are based on a world that no longer exists, we're in trouble.

 And that sadly often is the case. 

[00:57:21] Jim Jansen: Thank you. Father, our time is flying, but I want to give you a chance just to speak to maybe two, two last things here. One would be, you know, uh, in divine renovation, you talk about the development of a game plan here in the archdiocese of Omaha. We've referred to it as a clear path of discipleship that it's like, okay, what's your parish's plan for making a game plan?

And maturing disciples. We've got a bunch of parishes that are, praise God, like they're in it. They're trying, they've developed a blueprint of like, okay, here's what we want it to look like. And they've built their first step, you know, they've got something like alpha that's fostering conversion. Maybe they even have a next step that's kind of up and running, but you know, more than most, it's hard work.

I want you to speak to those who are, that they're a couple years into it, they're, they've seen life, they've seen fruit, but they're maybe a little tired. What are the keys to continued growth? 

[00:58:19] Fr. Mallon: I think it's, um, this is the critical thing is, you know, as Stephen Covey once said, the main thing is to keep the main thing, the main thing, or to make the main thing, the main thing.

And that main thing, if you go back to Matthew 28, the great commission, is the making of disciples. If you make disciples, then we teach and we baptize. The making of disciples is the main thing, and that's a lot of work. A lot of parishes can be very busy places, but they're not, they might not be making any disciples at all.

But they're busy as anything, but busyness is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit. And so, what are we busy about? And I think it constantly means that we've got to strip away a lot of the dead weight in parishes, a lot of the, you know, bad ideas and good ideas that drain energy and take us away from the main thing.

There's a reason why we prune bushes, because if we don't prune a bush, if we let everything just to grow wildly and uncontrollably, you're going to have all these little buds and flowers all over the place, but they're all going to be weak. 
They're all going to be small. None are going to be beautiful because it dissipates all the vital energy.

And yes, all life comes from the work of the Holy Spirit, but it's, it's fully human, fully divine. We cooperate. So, we've got to manage our, that our human energy as well, and be very careful that we're putting our primary focus into the, into the main thing. I would say that if you're in this, Remember that it's it takes time often say that the 1st phase of Paris renewal, which takes between 2 and 4 years is simply getting momentum.

In moving in the right direction, which is getting momentum on a culture of evangelization that initial phase takes 2 to 4 years and then it's at least another 4 years to actually begin to build your systems, which includes you're actually having a plan. Because here's the thing, if you say. Well, this is our main thing where we fundamentally make this is what we were supposed to make.

And if you were in production and a factory, and I said, oh, you make, um, hubcaps for cars. How, what's your process? What do you mean process? You don't have a process. We just believe that's what we're supposed to make. You know, once in a while, a hubcap, you know, pops out, but we don't really have a process.

It's like, that's the most ridiculous thing. Like you've, if you're gonna, if you're saying this is fundamentally what we're called to make, and you don't have a process, like Siri, you expect me to take you seriously? Like, what do you expect? Yeah. You know, someone said every system is perfectly designed to get the results is presently getting.

If you're not making any disciples, it's probably because you're not making disciples. You're not intentionally making disciples. You don't have a process. And, and here's one of the critical things is a lot of, see, a lot of parishes have programs, but not process. It's not enough to have programs. Because otherwise we end up in a consumer model, we end up being like a buffet, we'll go to the cafeteria and, um, you know, what will I have to eat today?

Whatever tickles my fancy, but what's our intentional process to grow people? You know, if you've had more than one kid, you probably have some notion of a process of how to raise children. So, it's going to take time. You need to be intentional about it and it's worth it. It really is worth it. So, keep going.

But remember, it's a, it's, it's a marathon. And as you work in preparing a process, be sure not to exclude yourself from it. This is a great question for parish leaders to ask themselves. The pastors and parish staff is. Are my people actually growing? Am I growing? If your staff, your parish staff at the end of, you know, a ministry season are simply exhausted and close to burned out and haven't actually grown spiritually.

In fact, they've become cynical, or their prayer life has become minimal. There's something wrong because we're called to grow our people. So... 

[01:02:26] Jim Jansen: that's awesome. All right. Father, last words, just encouragement advice, you know, and maybe take a moment. I think you have a prophetic gift though. The Lord has used you to say and echo things that are, you know, magisterial documents, but deeper than that, I think they're, they're in the Lord's heart.

So, let's give you, give me a moment just to speak a final word of, uh, encouragement council, just for, for those listening. 

[01:02:57] Fr. Mallon: Well, our third key, I talked about two of the keys, primacy of evangelization, best of leadership. The third key is the power of the Holy Spirit and the key ring represents the Eucharist, the source and summit, uh, that ties off, ties it together, but the power of the Holy Spirit and you know, this is it ultimately, you can have all the, the most, the most, Profound, amazing leadership advice, and you can have the best programs, but if it's not, if you people don't experience the power of God's spirit, nothing will come of it.

Jesus says in Luke 24, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high. Stay in the city. Cathesity in Greek, which means sit. Literally sit your butts down. That would be my translation. Sit your butts down until you're clothed with power from on high. Don't dare to try to do this on your own strength.

And so we need to seek the refreshment of the spirit of God that we need to every day, multiple times a day, pray come Holy Spirit, not a, not in a just come Holy Spirit, come up with an expectant faith, expect the, the spirit of God who flows like a, like a gentle rain. And sometimes comes like a, like a, a current.

To invite the Holy Spirit to come to reflect, refresh, and to renew, pray, pray, pray for the Holy Spirit, for the anointing of the Holy Spirit. In conclusion, the Divine Renovation, it started the year before I came out to visit your diocese. We were a very small church. Group of people. Now we're operating in 98 countries in the world.

[01:04:31] Jim Jansen: I didn't know there were that many countries in the world. 

[01:04:34] Fr. Mallon: It's crazy. And so, we've got, we've been so blessed to connect with parishes all over the world. And we've seen these three principles. that they're transferable into different cultures, into different contexts, and that they're bearing fruit and transforming parishes so that parishes can transform people, uh, all over the world.

So please pray for that movement of God. And if you want to find out more, check out our website, divinerenovation.org, or check out our YouTube channel, there's a lot of amazing resources, and I'm not in most of them, trust me, it's, it's, it's become a movie. It is. There are amazing men and women all over the world who are now speaking about their experiences, and it's truly, truly inspiring.

[01:05:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Father, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your labor, your voice. Really, really appreciate it. 

[01:05:28] Fr. Mallon: Thank you, Jim. It's been a pleasure. It's been a lot of fun, actually. God bless everyone. Keep going. It's worth it. 

[01:05:35] Jim Jansen: All right, everybody. I just want you to take a moment. You know, you know, somebody needs to hear this, right?

That little whisper, maybe they popped into your head as you were listening and you're like, no, no, no, no, no. I could never send this to them. Maybe it's your pastor. If you haven't met him yet, I appreciate, I think you should like introduce yourself, but then afterwards say, father, I, I thought of you when I was listening to something, whoever it is, youth minister, a friend, a teammate.

I want you to take a moment. And when it's safe, don't do it. If you're driving, send this out to someone who thinks, uh, you think needs to hear it. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to the equip cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission.

Stay connected with us by going to equip.archomaha.org. God bless and see you next time.