[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast. So, I just sat down with Chance and Laura Unger. Uh, they are the founders of the Missionaries of the Holy Spirit in the family. And Chance and Laura, like many of us, knew that they were called to be holy. But the question they had is like, how do we do this together?
Does it always have to be the guys over here and the ladies over here? How do we live marriage and family and holiness together? So, if you are called to be a saint, that's pretty much everyone. If you are married, if you want to be married, if you know someone that wants to be married, You're going to really appreciate today's conversation.
Take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to the equip cast a weekly podcast for the archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.
All right. Chance and Laura Unger, welcome to the equip cast. How are you guys doing? 

[00:01:04] Chance: We're great. Thanks for having us. 

[00:01:06] Jim Jansen: We're going to talk a little bit about this beautiful little adventure. The Lord has taken you all on. Almost by accident, kind of starting a little movement for families and, uh, for, for married couples.
You are the founders of the missionaries of the Holy Spirit and the family. But before we get there, I want to give you a chance to just share a little bit, a little bit about your, your story and your faith journey. 

[00:01:27] Lora: I grew up Catholic and I went to a Catholic school my entire life. Um, my faith did not become my own until college.
Um, that's when I felt like I was really able to kind of step into going to mass on Sundays and, and trying to, I always had a desire to be near the church. I just didn't know how. And yeah, I guess I, I started dating Chance who is not Catholic and, uh, maybe I'll let him share a little bit about that part of our story.

[00:01:53] Jim Jansen: Can you say more about like, I wanted to be close to the church, but I didn't know how. 

[00:01:57] Lora: Yeah. I, I wanted to be close to the church, but I didn't know how. My Catholic education growing up wasn't super strong. I didn't necessarily have the best examples of like holy men and women in my life. I just had a desire to be near truth.
And I didn't even really actually know that the, that the Catholic church was the one true church. I just knew like, that I loved Jesus and that, that I knew other people who loved Jesus. I kind of thought it was all the same thing. So, in college, I had gotten involved with other Bible studies that were non-Catholic Bible studies.
And that's when it started to feel a little different, a little off. And that, that's a part that was a part of my journey of really seeking out like, well, what is true is purgatory. True. Is it not true? Um, that was some of the conversations that chance and I encountered when we started dating. And it was just like, Yeah, our pursuit of, of having a good holy relationship in, in a relationship that had different faith backgrounds was like, if purgatory is true, I want you to believe in it.
And if it's not true, I don't want to believe in it. And so, it was really a pursuit of what is true. 

[00:03:05] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And you had to, you had to sort that out pretty early on in your dating relationship. 

[00:03:10] Chance: Yeah, it was actually, uh, it was a sticking point. The story we share, which I was ignorant to at the fact. So, we started dating, you know, at the end of our junior year in college.
And when I was, you know, coming into college, like a lot of people was asking, you know, questions about what is, yeah, what is truth. And I grew up Protestant, but I also, I was really ignorant just to moral issues. I remember even as a freshman in college, I remember, um, someone I was in a group with just asking me, you know, a question about abortion, you know, what would you tell a mom, you know, or a woman who, you know, has a baby and wants to have an abortion.
And I was embarrassed at the time. I realized like, I didn't actually even know what that was. I was so ignorant to a lot of moral issues, even as a 19-year-old kid, it was like a time for me in college. It was like, I really wanted to like learn, learn so much. And I started to ask a lot of really hard questions in my life.
And. And I was seeking just, yeah, like, where does truth lie? And I found it in the Catholic church. And that was around the same time that Laura and I had met, we started dating. And, uh, we had this conversation. This would have been right at the beginning of our senior year of college. And, uh, you know, Laura was kind of mentioning those just challenges that she was having and, and she was having a huge reversion back to the faith.
And I was having this kind of ongoing conversion with the Lord. And, uh, Laura said in this conversation, uh, chance, I think, I just believe the Catholic church is the one true church. That's just really important for me. If, if in a dating relationship. Little did I know at the time she had intended to break it off in that conversation, but what came out of the mouth after that was, I believe that too.
And all these...

[00:04:56] Jim Jansen: to your surprise. 

[00:04:57] Chance: To my surprise that Laura was, was considering ending our dating relationship at the time. And my statement there, this like desire for truth is what kept us dating at the time. And then just growing deeper and deeper in relationship. And You know, I was befriended by some focus missionaries and other people at the time who helped get me connected to the Newman center in Lincoln.
And, and I remember by Thanksgiving, it was like, I was so convinced of the truth that it was like, I was ready to become Catholic, you know, I would joke that even if I didn't want to, I would have, cause I was just so convinced, but I just fell in love with it and, uh, best decision I ever made. 

[00:05:34] Jim Jansen: That's awesome.
I was blessed to watch a little bit of this going on from a distance, you know, but you guys were students at the University of Nebraska Lincoln, involved in the Newman Center, very involved in the athletic department at UNL, which I think is also, I mean, my sense was there was, there's not a lot of, there's a lot of extremes there.
Extreme virtue, extreme kind of exertion, strong Christian, evangelical, Catholic communities there. And it seems like it was a blessing that it brought you to a place where. You didn't kind of wallow in indecision very long. Uh, it seems like the, the two of you, I mean, Laura, you came to the conviction, like, okay, I think the church is true.
And I like this guy, but, and like, you didn't, you didn't stay in indecision, uh, very long. It didn't seem like it at least. 

[00:06:20] Chance: Yeah. I think that would be true. 

[00:06:21] Lora: Yeah. I had, had very clear prayer from the Lord that was like, I, I desire you to marry a good Catholic man. This man is going to lead you and your family in, in the truth.
And I was like, that, that's. That's what I want. And, and I really, I really love this man that I'm dating right now, but if he can't do that for me, that's not, that's not what I want. And so, it was kind of an impasse, and it was, it was hard, but I guess I was willing to let you go, but you stepped up. 

[00:06:53] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's awesome.
So Chance, you joined the church, you all get, get married. Where did, where did you get married? 

[00:06:59] Chance: Yeah, we got married at North American Martyrs. North American Martyrs, British. Okay. 

[00:07:02] Jim Jansen: Lincoln, Nebraska. Alright, so tell us a little bit, you're married, you've got several children, kind of take us back. You, you, you know, we were talking before, um, this is always the way it goes, right?
We start a cool conversation and they're like, Oh wait, we should turn on the microphones. You have this like beautiful thing where the Lord. It starts to just for your own family, draw you to this place where almost by accident you end up, uh, helping to found, uh, and we'll probably talk about father, father Holdren in his role, but you end up kind of founding this movement, uh, for families.
Take us back to the beginning. Um, how did this sense of calling to start the missionaries of the Holy Spirit in the family? How did that first show up? 

[00:07:43] Chance: Yeah, I can start. I know Lori will be able to fill in a lot of important details. Yeah, but one of the things that I remember after I became a Catholic was that I, I was learning about different movements, you know, different ministries and, you know, coming from a Protestant background, you know, had a knowledge of certain things.
And I had heard about Opus Dei, then besides Opus Dei, I didn't, you know, I hadn't heard really any words that were associated with living an ordinary, you know, ordinary Catholic life. So, it was just really on my heart to just learn what, what does the church teach about like how to live an ordinary holy family?
You know, are there examples that we know, or, you know, are there movements or ministries towards that? And there wasn't really a lot. I remember even, you know, reading, there's like a blue book, uh, I think called like, um, a Catholic married saints and blesseds. And it's just a ton of stories of canonized saints or blessed in the church, you know, who were married, but the majority of those stories are families besides the holy family and like, you know, Lewis and Zellie Barton and a few others.
A lot of them are stories about, well, you know, this spouse converted another spouse, or this spouse died and then, you know, someone became a religious. 

[00:08:58] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's what I was waiting for. It's like all the ones that I found, it's like, and her husband died young, and she went into the convent a year later.
And it's like, I mean, that's awesome. I'm hoping that's not our, our path. God, I mean, if that's where Kim needs to, you know, needs to go. Okay, Lord, but yeah, that's great. So, yeah, it's not great, but it is a little like when you're looking for real examples of holiness, it's like, gosh, like, does one of us have to die young and the other one, you know, suffer, uh, nobly to raise the children and then.
Yeah. Enter religious life later. I mean... 

[00:09:29] Chance: Yeah, we were hoping that it was like, we, what, what would it actually look like? It's like, we just knew like really, really great stories of what it looks like to live ordinary family life. Well, and then, yeah. And the first couple of years of our marriage, we, we ran into like a huge suffering and a huge impasse.
Maybe work and shed a little light on that. 

[00:09:47] Lora: Yeah. I, well, I think before that. Before our hardships, we've given birth to our first son, John Paul, and, and around that time to chance was becoming really inspired by St. Pope John Paul II and his theology of the body. And he kept, he, he just like had such a love for it and really was kind of like wanting to share it and was kind of, I think you, I think you were praying through like what that would look like to just kind of share this beautiful message.
He loved Pope John Paul II so much that we were going to name John Paul, John Paul, no matter what. Praise God, he was a boy because I'm pretty sure chance would have tried anyway, um, 

[00:10:22] Chance: Joan Paula. 

[00:10:23] Lora: Yeah. We played around with some, some girl variations of that name, but around, I guess year three of our marriage, we got pregnant again and lost the baby and it was just such a heartache.
At that time, we had already like, it had been the prayer, our prayer for the first couple years of our marriage just to give us good, holy friendships, having not been raised in Nebraska and, and chance being a convert, we just didn't have a lot of friends. And so that was a point in, in our lives where God was kind of starting to give us friends and, and they were able to support us through this, like, hard miscarriage.
Of loss, but yeah, it was, it was a physical toll on me. I ended up hemorrhaging during the miscarriage and didn't know. Yeah, I just, I, I have memories of, um, one of my friends calling chance to tell, tell him at work. Like, I don't think Laura is okay. I think you need to go home. And get her and I, I very faintly remember him kind of like picking me up and putting me in the car and asking me questions.
But I, I just was in this place of like, so close to our Lord, like the world was kind of fading and in there, just like prompt making these promises to him of like, just feeling like fully at peace of like, I know, Lord, that you have my family taken care of. If, if it's my time to, to go home now, yeah. But also, like, if you let me stay here, I'll do whatever it is that you have for me to do.
And yeah, just like that, that place of vulnerability, like, he just came into that. And my, my physical state for a long time was, it was very, like, was very broken. And I was just so aware of my, my own physical limitations, spiritual limitations, every kind of limitation. In those desires, I think, like, was born in us just, like, this knowledge of something deeper.
We just, like, our baby Francis, we just wanted to be with him in heaven and couldn't, and it's just, like, this, like, the distance between heaven and earth when you're a mother longing for your child is just, like, inconceivable. And like, really in that, like, place of pain, all this desire came in to just surrender to our Lord and to invite other people into that kind of same type of relationship.
And then we just realized that, yeah, in having these conversations, married couples, a lot of our friends, they desire the same thing. We want to make holy. Every suffering of this life and we can't do this alone. And what does that look like? 

[00:12:55] Jim Jansen: I want to invite you both to talk a little bit, because as I hear you talk about this, it sounds like there were two, two really big catalysts.
One, maybe just kind of an ordinary loneliness and then, and then obviously this extraordinary moment with the miscarriage and maybe where Laura sounds like you almost died or at least you were willing to. If that's, if that's where it had gone, talk about how did the loneliness and then, yeah, how did the loneliness, because that's more of the kind of the ordinary element, how did the loneliness start to prompt this or bring these desires to the surface?

[00:13:31] Lora: I think that authentic friendship is something that we all desire. And in the world where we live today, it's just so rare. And holiness is not made to be made out alone. We are not made to be on our own islands. And so, there's this natural yearning there when you find truth to, to run alongside others.
To do the same and what we call this kind of in MHSF now is just like making a new normal and we wanted to make normal like holy good things for our family. Like you can pray the rosary at your home every day with your family. And that can be your family's normal and that's beautiful. But if your children leave and they realize nobody else praise the rosary, nobody else goes to mass.
I've never seen anyone else do these things. It's not normal for them. And then they, they maybe will question, well, maybe that was my normal growing up, but the world doesn't show that. And so just this like real yearning of like, if this is true and good and beautiful, we desire to have that and have it in abundance with people running alongside of us.
Kind of building this culture of a new normal, like we get to go back to what the Lord said is normal and rebuild that back into our world and give that as a gift to our own marriage and to our children. And I think that what we realize is that everyone has this sense of living holiness out on their own island.
And, and when you, you unite that and you find those people who have those desires, they do want to run alongside of you. And we are building up this army of a new normal. 

[00:15:06] Jim Jansen: Again, before we turn on the mics, you're talking about you were initially kind of surprised this is this desires growing in you and you're like, all right, well, let's invite some friends to do this with us.
And you were kind of surprised. how much response you got. Talk a little bit about that. How did people first respond to the invitation? Like, Hey, let's gather together. Let's, let's like, I don't even know what the invitation was. Let's make a new normal. 

[00:15:31] Chance: I think one thing that's funny, you know, when we speak about loneliness too, and even mission, you know, like the name, the missionaries of the Holy Spirit and the family is a mouthful to say, and we thought, well, gosh, should the name change?
Or, you know, it's just hard to say or hard to remember. Ultimately, the reality of like how things came to be and the core of the mission is the fact that if you are to be on mission, it begins with relationship, strong relationship with the Lord and where you find your identity and then through that and your marriage.
And it's never designed to be something independent, like you were saying, Laura, on an island. And so really the only. The only really good way to be on mission to do a thing, you know, to live out your marriage is, you know, in and through and with the other. 

[00:16:22] Jim Jansen: That's huge. I mean, I'm just thinking, as you're talking about this, my mind goes back to like, there's a reason why our marriage vows are made in a very public, communal setting.
Right? Because other people, they're supposed to be a part of it, right? I mean, just the, you know, family and friends and the community and aunts and uncles and those people who are just there for the cake, you know, but like everybody is, it gets to be a part of it because marriage is, of course, for us, but it is also, I mean, a building block of society.
It's for others and other people are for supposed to be for our, our marriage and our family. So how did people respond? Well, first off, what did you invite them to? Right? You weren't like, Hey, come be a part of missionaries with the Holy Spirit and the family. 'cause that wasn't even a thing yet. What did you invite them to do?

[00:17:07] Lora: Yeah, I mean, it, it was wild that people were saying yes 'cause we invited them into the most obscure, undefined, odd thing that probably you could come up with, right? Like, I remember. Meeting with father Holdren and saying like, there's a bunch of married couples. Would you just like come alongside of us and help us like help us just surrender to the Holy Spirit?
I don't know. God's doing something here and I don't know exactly what it is. We're just, you know, and right away I was like, he's going to be like, I'll check my schedule and see if I have any time for this, you know, kind of thing. I don't know. And, and he right away was like, Oh, absolutely. I'm in. This is awesome.
Yeah. So just like these God wings along the way, but yeah, there was certain people even that God put on our hearts to ask that it was like, I don't really know them Lord, you know, wow. But I'm going to like invite this woman to a coffee shop and let her know like, hey, Father Holdren's in for just accompanying us.

[00:18:05] Jim Jansen: You're like, we might be crazy, but Father Holdren's great. Right? Yeah. 

[00:18:08] Lora: No, I think that people probably said yes, because everybody knew Father Holdren's awesome, you know. So maybe, but just like, yeah, asking, asking a woman you don't know at a coffee shop, like, Hey, I feel like God put your name on my heart because we have a desire to sanctify marriage and we want all of it.
We're wondering if you wanted to do that too. And to have people just say like, this is such an answer to a prayer. You don't know how much we've desired this and not know where to go to find it. And now we've realized, too, as we have had 100 plus couples join us, that like, there is this desire that just kind of lays dormant in us, and once you, once you call it out, like, we've said, like, Married couples desire this call to greatness.
We're not made for just like a random Bible study here and again, and then like monotonous work and all these things. We're made to do things that matter. We're made for greatness. And when people realize that that, that can happen. they're in. 

[00:19:12] Jim Jansen: I love, you know, the consecrated calls within the church, you know, priesthood, religious life, but there is something, I think, if, I mean, if the universal call to holiness was universal, you know, if marriage is indeed a sacrament, then, like, there is a holiness and a greatness.
Within marriage and family that I think we're still struggling, and God bless, you know, John Paul the second and so many, uh, so much of the work of like kind of recent popes in the church to try and highlight examples, but we're like, gosh, I know I'm made for more. And if I am really called to this state in life, like, what does it look like here?
I want to ask something because I just go back to something you said, like, God kept putting these people on our hearts and they weren't necessarily people that you knew well. Um, we're talking about a very specific apostolate, you know, what you all do, but that's kind of a universal experience. Can you just, can we break that open a little bit?
Like, what is it like when you're like, okay, we're supposed to, you're kind of have this call on your life. And then these people. Start coming to mind. You're like, I don't know, Lord, that's not a good fit. I, I don't even watch their last name. Even like, how do you, how did you recognize that the Lord was bringing someone to your attention?

[00:20:29] Lora: A lot of prayer in the beginning, it was really led by him. There was a lot of his inspiration there. And so, I think like I would get like almost a picture of someone in my head, you know, and it's like, I mean, we've maybe crossed paths at the Newman center in the past or this or that, and I don't know what parish they're at even, but I think they're in town and I think I can find a way to communicate with her almost.
But yeah, I don't know. It just was, it was so God was so clear. And then even just now having it, it's been what, like eight years. Yeah. Seeing like that, these, these couples that we, we initially asked have played a really integral part in inspiring what the mission would become. It's just like, yeah, seeing hindsight 2020, 2020.
Yeah, the desires he gave them and gave us to share really like formed important things here for all of us. 

[00:21:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I appreciate that, that faith though. I mean, just in the example, you're like, all right, Lord, what are we supposed to do? Who are we supposed to invite? There's this moment of prayer and then, then there's just like, huh, when this person comes to mind, I mean, literally you're like, oh, I like, I can see the image of them.
I'm not even quite sure where they're at right now. I could probably find them on Facebook that there's like this stepping out in faith to like All right, I'm gonna reach out. I'm gonna see if we can get together. And now you can look back and you're like, Oh, okay, cool. That was that was absolutely God.
But in the moment, there's maybe just a little bit of faith, but more than just a little bit of faith to step out and reach out when you're like, Yeah, this person's on my heart and mind. But I don't know. Is that just me? Is that random? Is that really the Holy Spirit? I love that. Thank you for that. Okay.
So, what, what do you do? I mean, you get together with other couples, you invited them with like, we want to, you know, we want to live like the mission. We want to sanctify the ordinary marriage and family life. What does that look like on a Thursday night, Sunday night? Like just give us some of the practicals here.

[00:22:24] Chance: Well, I think one analogous description of MHSF is, you know, it's like a pseudo seminary for married couples. Oh, that's great. Okay, say that again. A pseudo seminary for married couples. Yeah, so it's, you know, it's obviously not a, you know, established seminary of sorts, but it has a seminary feel. Sure. And we even use The four main pillars of, you know, typical seminary formation in our formation.
So, there's human, intellectual, spiritual, and apostolic. And so, you know, a human formation of being like, just, you know, how do you relate to other people? Like normal day to day stuff? What do relationships look like? Um, spiritual formation being, you know, how to pray, spending time with the Lord, intellectual formation, um, just, you know, taking, you know, church documents or things from scripture and learning about them.
And then the apostolic component, what does that look like concretely in real life? And so, we take those, and they're implemented throughout a two-year formation that, that couples will go through. And just like, you know, a regular seminary, we have a discernment period for couples. And so, you know, every year.
We'll let people, you know, learn about it and they'll take time to ask hard questions with their spouse about, you know, do we have the time commitment for this or, you know, what this, what is this going to look like for, for our lives and what's our openness to this? Just asking some of the same questions that we did and the couples that initially started with MHSF asked when couples get together, they, they meet for, for 24 months, for two years asking.

[00:23:57] Jim Jansen: Okay. Wow. So, it's a two-year commitment? 

[00:23:59] Chance: Two-year commitment. And they really, you know, we, we kind of ask two main questions, which is what's the church teach about marriage and family? And then how do we become that? And it's just a process of. relating to the Lord and understanding the truth. And then quoting John Paul II, sort of this becoming what you are, this continual call to, you know, yeah, what we were made for, and particularly in the vocation of marriage, you know, how that forms us as, as people.
And so, yeah, the commitment is a long commitment, but the fruits have been really profound. 

[00:24:31] Jim Jansen: How often do you gather? So, 24 months, is this a weekly gathering? Is it monthly? What's, how often do you get together? 

[00:24:38] Lora: So, we've started meeting just monthly. And they meet for three hours. Right now, we do like a Friday evening, and they start with a meal and, uh, just friendship and enjoy each other's company.
And then we move into kind of a period of teaching and small groups. And each night we'll have kind of a topic that's building, uh, building up through kind of, yeah, our stages of like relationship and identity and who are we and, um, really teaching people how to pray and teaching people who, who they are kind of as a foundation, giving people like, Kind of these gifts of, like, being able to use, like, spiritual discernment as a tool or discerning your own charisms, what gifts have you been given and allowing people to see too that holiness is incredible and incredibly different and unique and it's unique to your family.
And so also giving them those tools. Throughout formation to see like, uh, here's objectively who the church says that you are, but subjectively he's gifted you differently. He has given you different circumstances and your path to holiness is different. And so, giving them also those tools to see what their mission lived out looks like.
And so, yeah, that's some of our formation topics. They end each formation. Now, with just time, like time for small groups and time to discuss whatever kind of happened in the formation with their spouse. And then we move up to the chapel for adoration, confession and praise and worship. And so, yeah, just having that sacrament of confession available to you, I think has been huge for some of these people.
That's one thing that they comment on all the time is that I've never been able to go to confession so frequently and it's been transformative. It is. 

[00:26:23] Jim Jansen: Is it a full weekend then? So, it's Friday and Saturday? 

[00:26:26] Lora: So, it's just Friday. 

[00:26:27] Jim Jansen: Just Friday. Okay. 

[00:26:28] Lora: Friday monthly. Um, we have a couple different retreats that they attend, which would be like a Friday, Saturday, but then throughout, so they leave the month, the month's meeting then with some kind of challenge.
Um, so they make a commitment to praying with their spouse for like an hour each week, or just like setting aside time. They're kind of using these like building blocks and challenges to just transform what the home life looks like. And so, our hope is that like, we don't take a ton of their time. But that they will go throughout the month and continue building on whatever it is that they take away with them.

[00:27:04] Jim Jansen: Okay, I have to ask, where are the kids when, when this is happening? 

[00:27:07] Lora: You know, I think childcare is actually probably the biggest struggle. 

[00:27:12] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I, yeah, I imagine, I mean, amen. 

[00:27:13] Lora: Yeah, because it, it's hard. I mean, because of the hours that we do it, we do it like 6 30 to 9 30. So, I mean, we say everything's baby friendly.
Always. If you, you can bring a baby, you can bring a baby, you can bring big kids if you want. Most people just don't because it's bedtime. 

[00:27:29] Jim Jansen: Right? 

[00:27:29] Lora: Yeah. So, we have babies all over the place a lot of the time. But 

[00:27:34] Jim Jansen: so, you touched on some of the themes of like, okay, what's being, you know, like the, the content for the formation, how is it delivered?
Are you guys helping to present Father Holdren? Like who's, who are the kind of presenters live videos? 

[00:27:49] Chance: So yeah, we've, we've tried a few different things. We do have a video series that we put together. The ideal is that when, when groups meet, they'll be able to watch the videos beforehand and read the workbook that we put together.
So go through the content. And then that evening is really geared at a lot less of like sitting and listening to a lecture and there's about an hour devoted to teaching and so being able to take whatever topic it is, maybe have, you know, a priest teach on it or someone who's, you know, got an expertise in the area or can share testimony on the topic and spending maybe 20 to 30 minutes teaching on it and then the rest of the time, you know, it's for spouses and small groups to just spend time discussing it.
We have, you know, curriculum and content that can be used in those evenings, um, but really trying to lean into, you know, people just having time to discuss the material, which is really rare sometimes. 

[00:28:44] Jim Jansen: To own it. Well, and I mean, it's, it's interesting. I was going to say this was always kind of like the, I think, confusion for people around focus when focus was first getting started, like, okay, what's in your Bible studies?
And people were convinced that it was like, whatever was on page six was like the secret sauce. And I mean, the content was good. I mean, you know, it was great content, but the secret sauce was the people. It was the prayer. It was the gathering together. It was the communal experience of the sacraments with a really intentional group of disciples.
People initially would always be really distracted by the materials. And I'm, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but your faces are saying like, yeah, it's actually not about the videos. 

[00:29:25] Chance: Oh, absolutely. And that was a, like kind of a temptation personally of mine too, is to think like, if we just have like a really perfect curriculum or like the best type of writing, then, then people are going to be transformed.
And I mean, the joy has been that the fact of just people getting together, uh, has been, that's been, like you said, the secret sauce. 

[00:29:44] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, and in humility, if it was about, I mean, right, if it was about the content, man, God bless our, you know, seminaries and all these. I mean, you can watch form. org from now until well, Jesus comes back and still only be halfway through.
I mean, it's not about the content so much. I mean, and it matters, but so much as people drawing together, I'm curious, you mentioned, so you mentioned confession. What do people say that they find most impactful? 

[00:30:10] Lora: I don't know if there's only one thing that they find most impactful, but... 

[00:30:14] Jim Jansen: Okay, you can say two.

[00:30:15] Lora: Okay, two things. No, I'm kidding. Um, number one, I think the power of feeling seen and known and loved in your marriage by your spouse is transformative. Um, a lot of times there's one, like maybe the wife or the husband really wants to come to MHSF gatherings and, and the spouse is like, I mean, I'll come to appease you kind of thing.
And, and it's sometimes that spouse that, that gets their boat rocked because they're like, Oh, this is, this is what we've been missing. You know? And it's just like. Like a lot of times we do, we have like an hour for our teaching, but most of that time is the teacher stepping away, allowing the couple to interact or give small groups.
Because even though married couples live together, we know that we don't get to talk. We don't get to communicate. We joke that one of our primary sources of communication is sticky notes because it's effective and it's on the fridge, you know? Yeah. 

[00:31:11] Jim Jansen: Well, and yeah, and I'm just thinking for all the singles listening, this It's totally true.
I know we live together, but like, I mean, the studies I think show like most couples get maybe 20 minutes of conversation. Just the two of them, you know, married, especially with Children. It's like maybe 20 minutes and that is not a consecutive 20 minutes. 

[00:31:29] Lora: It's an interrupted, continuously interrupted 20 minutes. 

[00:31:33] Jim Jansen: Which is why post it notes are great because post it notes don't lose their train of thought.

[00:31:36] Lora: There's nothing more clear than writing it on a post it note. But I digress. Yeah. So, so having a spouse show up for you to say one night a month, this belongs to us. Um, we're running together. We're getting on the same page. I choose you over and over and over is transformative because they both feel so loved and on the same page and seen by their spouse and in the same place seen by our Lord, because they're just immersed in the truth of God.
This, you know, these words, and I think there's, there's a lot of Bible studies for women and Bible studies for men. And a lot of times it takes our faith journey, like kind of, you know, we're both having this experience with, with God, but, but separately, you know, and so like it's joining, joining kind of that for people.
And one of, you know, one of the things that we try to reemphasize for our couples is just this living of order. What does it look like to put God first and personal prayer first and then next your spouse, you know, your spouse and praying with them. And if you don't have time for those things, you don't have time for anything else.
Um, you don't have time to go to your parish and volunteer at every single parish event. If you don't have time to pray yourself, there is a right order that we live. that can transform us. 

[00:32:59] Jim Jansen: Is that hard for people? Because I'm thinking, you know, and it's maybe a generational thing, but for so long to be a lay person, you know, to be a good parishioner meant setting up the chairs, frying the fish, like just being involved.
And I mean, I'm hearing you saying, um, first you're going to be in relationship with Jesus and your spouse, and then you might have something fruitful to offer your parish. Do people resist that? Is that hard? Is that hard for people to hear? 

[00:33:32] Lora: I think so. Um, and, and I'm not like, I'm not saying don't go to your parishes and help, you know, but the true transformation is inside.
And it flows out from there, you know, and so kind of, we call it our, during discernment, our heck yes and our holy no. So, we say like... 

[00:33:51] Jim Jansen: Say that, wait, say that again. Your heck yes and your holy no.

[00:33:54] Lora: So, like your heck yes or your holy no. And we say no's are holy too, because they allow you to give a greater yes where God is calling you to be.
And there will be a time in your life where frying fish makes a lot of sense. You have extra time. You have, you know, hopefully the skills to do whatever it is that you're helping with. 

[00:34:14] Jim Jansen: Right? But when the kids are young, you know, like boiling oil isn't maybe a good combination. 

[00:34:20] Lora: Or, or just in general, like leaving to go serve when, when who you're serving is supposed to be in the home right now.
And so, stage of life, just looking at it. And we talk about that with our couples. We have some couples who have older children. High school college age Children and leaving to serve at the parish is not a big deal. 

[00:34:40] Jim Jansen: Right? Yeah. 

[00:34:40] Lora: And you can bring your kids along and that's beautiful. They can see the mission of how this service works.
But when you have really little kids just being mindful of like, where is my where does my greatest? Yes, need to be right now. and sometimes saying no to really great things has to happen to give your full yes to where God is asking you to be. 

[00:35:01] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's, that's beautiful. I want, and I can relate. I mean, Kim and I are now at a stage, we have both older and little kids, but just we're at a stage now where we have the freedom to do some of the things that we didn't when we were young.
I mean, I, you know, I'm trained as a lector, and I love to read during the liturgy. But I often, I mean, only until very recently have I been able to say yes again, because if I had said yes, it meant leaving Kim with, you know, six squirrelly kids in the pew, likely maybe to shout out my name or something else embarrassing while I'm up there.
So, it's Yeah, it's like there's, there's seasons for all of this. I want to pivot a little bit. I want to give you a chance maybe to go a little bit deeper. You know, my experience has been even those who are trying to live holiness, those who are, you know, trying to embrace their faith individually as a couple.
All of us have stuff, some deeper than others, and I think there's maybe a myth that like, well, if you, you know, if you're just like, you go to mass on Sundays and you give 10%, none of the heavier stuff is going to creep into your life and your marriage. And when I say heavier stuff, I mean, things like addiction, depression, abuse, divorce, things like that, have those things surfaced?
In, in your movement and how have you helped people process through those issues? 

[00:36:21] Chance: Yeah, I think in some ways that goes back to what you were asking about loneliness earlier. We are so much more resistant to sharing things that we don't like about ourselves or things that we know are wrong when we think we're the only one.
On a light note, one joy with MHSF has been, you know, these, these growing friendships You know, kind of to take from C. S. Lewis, he says, friendship is when one person says to another, Oh, you too. I thought I was the only one. And... 

[00:36:52] Jim Jansen: I love that. 

[00:36:52] Chance: There's a lot of like deep shared experiences that people have. In the groups together and particularly those that you have with your spouse.
And, you know, part of the things that, that build up to that is like the consistent time of what you were saying, Laura is like, you get a husband to continue to go with his wife and she gets to see like, oh yeah, like you're still with me. Like you're still here. You're still here. And these things are going to come up in the content and the formation for people to start asking.
Some real graces have come in, in the retreats that we have had where there's, there's time for people to sit with those ahead of time. And then when they come, knowing the fact that like, I'm not alone in this. It allows sort of the, you know, the walls to be set down and then to, to experience real healing and real, yeah, real mercy, uh, from the Lord, you know, we don't get to, you know, we don't get to, to hear about all the details that people have gone through, but we do get to hear a lot of graces from our retreats and from kind of the later stages in, in the formation of, of like, Oh yeah.
I felt like a great healing from, you know, this thing I was struggling with or, you know, my spouse and I, you know, we never, you know, we never prayed in this way together. And we've seen a lot of, a lot of the work of the mercy of God in that way. And I think the root of it has been this, this reality that, yeah, because I know that I'm, I'm not alone, because I know that you're here with me, um, I'm, I'm willing, I'm willing to open up and to be healed.

[00:38:25] Jim Jansen: Talk a little bit about like, what, what are people sharing? Just some of the fruits of their, you know, of their experiences. 

[00:38:32] Lora: I think just a testimony, uh, something simple that we share, that Father Holdren shared with us, and I think this, this changed a lot for me in my mind of marriage, but the power of the sacrament of the marriage, of marriage is so real.

[00:38:46] Jim Jansen: Mm. 

[00:38:47] Lora: You stand in, as a married person, you stand in the place of Christ over your family, and you have real authority there and real jurisdiction there. And I think that when people realize that and they're told that and they realize that like I have the same power in my home to pray for my spouse and to pray for my children in the same way that like a bishop prays for his flock, like that the sacrament is real, the power is real.
And so, when people realize like I need to be praying for my spouse and vulnerability Like, you're receiving your spouse and their faults in, in a way that invites them, like, as a safe place to share, like, I'm not going to be angry about. your faults, I'm going to receive you here in them and like stand in a place of Christ here with you so that you can heal.
And so, I feel like people share, people share that, that, that, um, they don't always share specifics. Sometimes they do, but they share like a real place of maybe somebody has a history of abuse, like personal abuse that they experienced that like, you know, these traumas that live in us, they come up and, and marriage can be really healing, and the sacraments can be really healing, but just a.
Like a place, a safe place, marriage is the safe place to be received in your faults. Um, and it doesn't always feel like that, but making it that safe place I think is transformative for people. And so, they will say like, this changed our relationship so that we really are praying together, and we really are like.
Working through these things together. 

[00:40:18] Jim Jansen: I want to invite you guys to talk more about that. Cause I can almost hear some of our listeners like two things. One, maybe their eyebrows going up thinking it's like, wait, what we have like authority, like a Bishop in our homes over our families. And then also some, I mean, just to be honest, who are at a place where they're like, I feel anything but powerful.
I feel powerless to connect with my spouse, to connect with my kids, to connect with the Lord, the way life is sweeping us along. I want you to talk a little bit about like the experience of power and the experience of authority in the family. 

[00:40:57] Chance: Well, it's not the kind of power that most people think about spouses are a permanent reminder to the world of what Christ did on the cross and the power that comes through the sacrament of marriage.
That's where the power comes from. And so, we can be reminded at what seemed like such, you know, great weakness and, you know, all these different things of what, what Christ offered out of himself. On the cross. And again, we can think that because we're so limited, you know, we, we can't do this or we can't do that, uh, we can't be healed.
But that continuously becomes the well with which, uh, we drink of this, this kind of authority and this power, which is ultimately like. You know, I, I'm going to offer myself as a gift to you. I'm going to be a self-gift, uh, even in my limitations, even in, you know, my imperfections and these things that I don't think I can do, you know, every day, you know, in a marriage, I can say yes, I can just keep saying yes over and over again.
You know, often slowly there, there becomes this confidence, this power of like, Oh yeah, I can say yes to this, this thing, this challenge, um, and I can offer myself in a way where I didn't before. And there's just so much grace that comes out of that. It's a really transformative type of power. 

[00:42:16] Jim Jansen: I mean, this is like the fundamentals of the gospel.
You're saying like you're experiencing this challenge in your marriage and you're stepping into it is at least in part an embrace of your own weakness and your own limitation. Like I can't fix this, but Jesus can, and he's in me and he's called me to this circumstance, this person. So, I say yes. And as crazy as it sounds, that habit of saying yes, To our weakness, to an undesirable circumstance, it releases grace and power.

[00:42:52] Chance: Yeah, it's really interesting, like, those things, they're, they're built into, you know, what we see even in, in, in all of creation, like, the planting of a seed, you know, a seed, it gets buried in, and the seed dies, and in that, fruit is produced. And you see that even in the human body and the way that healing happens, uh, there's these, uh, just like natural components that God gives us in every day that we get to see.
And then we get invited into those things and in regards to relational difficulties and. And these other, but it's like the same, um, uh, supernatural law that comes, it's like, I'm going to say yes to this small little death at this small little difficulty. Um, and there's this almost mysterious fruit that will always come about, which is God's presence.

[00:43:41] Jim Jansen: Are there any stories that come to mind either from your own marriage or other couples that have been involved? 

[00:43:46] Lora: Yeah, I think that an example that from, from at least from our own marriage is just as like continual surrender and like a lot of times the prayer, and I've, I think I've maybe heard this from others too, that they've prayed this.
It's just that, um, like parenthood is really hard, like potty training, all these things that you do. It's like, this is a real suffering that seems so silly to pray about potty training. Or whatever it is, but like, sometimes it is just the prayer of like, Lord, I come to you with empty hands. I'm totally dumbfounded.
Like, I know that you made this child for good. I don't necessarily see that good right now. Um, so like, I'm just, I come to you with open hands. Like, help me to see how to guide this because I, you know, sometimes you just, you feel at a complete loss. And so, to be in this place where Yeah, you're just like kind of living in surrender to how he wants you to guide like these children that he's made and entrusted you with or your spouse or whatever it is.
I think that that puts people at ease, like when people start praying for that where it's like, it really is like, I do my part and then it's like, It's out of my hands. I can just come to the Lord with empty hands and, and know that he has a plan to take care of this.

[00:44:59] Jim Jansen: I mean, it's so counterintuitive, but you're like, all right, so how do you fix?
You're like, just release, just let go. Surrender to Jesus. No, no, no. But how do you fix it? Just surrender to Jesus. There's something very freeing about what do I have to do? Say yes. 

[00:45:14] Lora: Like, Lord, you gave us this child who never sleeps. Certainly, you have a plan here that you're revealing. I'm just going to trust that that is happening.

[00:45:25] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's so good. I mean, a little bit, you know, like just our family, I can see that, you know, the difficulties we've, we've had Kim, and I are in our own marriage. It's the, it's the point of exasperation. It's the point of exhaustion, confusion. We're at our When we turn to the Lord in that key ingredient, that That's when the breakthroughs come, depending on how stubborn we are.
Sometimes we, we labor in the confusion or in the exhaustion, uh, maybe longer than we need to before we ask him to assist us and transform us. 

[00:46:02] Chance: It reminds me of a quote I actually just read yesterday by GK Chesterton. Something along the lines of marriage is an adventure, like going into war, uh, and kind of like funny.

[00:46:13] Jim Jansen: This is a Chesterton quote, marriage is an adventure, like going into war. 

[00:46:16] Chance: Yeah. Like going to war, but not with each other. 

[00:46:18] Jim Jansen: Right. Yeah. Thanks for clarifying. 

[00:46:20] Chance: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's kind of the, the, the key. It's like, um, realizing like, Oh yeah. Like your common enemy is not the other person's like disagreement with what you have, but like we, we are on battle together, you know?
Yeah. 

[00:46:33] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I love that. I used to, you know, when it, when I was doing the focus and college ministry, I used to love to like, you know, tell young people, it's like, listen, if all marriage was, was going out to eat and watching movies and long walks on the beach, I could do that with almost any reasonably attractive, reasonably kind person.
But it's a very special person that I want to be, you know, overwhelmed with screaming children and all sorts of, you know, bodily fluids and all of this stuff. Yeah. It's more like a mission trip. I am just perpetually tired and there's strange smells and all just all this stuff of like married life. It's like go on a mission trip and it's like if whoever manages to like hang through that like, hey, they're a person that that's who you might want to get hitched to for the rest of your life.

[00:47:18] Chance: That's funny because right after I became catholic, we went on a mission trip together. That's awesome. Yeah, we got engaged with six months after that. 

[00:47:26] Lora: But it is funny because nobody prepares you for what marriage could be. And there's all these skills you don't need, like as a mother, you're like, I didn't know I would need to be able to give haircuts and do wound care and you know, like all of these things and yeah.
Or like, what is that smell? I feel like I've Googled that so many times, like how do I get that to go away though? Yeah. All these kind of raising, raising people as messy and working through your trauma is messy. And there's. Yeah, all these like, all these things that people are going to have to encounter and work through and suffer and to, to suffer well alongside somebody is more like what marriage is.
Um, but like with joy, I would say. 

[00:48:05] Jim Jansen: I want to give you a chance, just kind of like closing comments here. What would you say to somebody who's like, okay, I, yes, like we want this, or I want this, or I could probably get my spouse to humor me and come along for the journey. What would you say to those who are wanting to begin to create a new normal of holiness in their marriages and family?

[00:48:26] Lora: Well, I would start first by saying you can do that today. You can surrender today and say yes today and sanctify today. You don't have to wait to join anything and to start a new book to do a new thing. You can say yes today. If you're interested in learning more about what we do as a mission, um, we have a website, www.MHSFonline.org. You can send us an email there or, or see more about what we do. I think there's probably more of a YouTube video about that. Our testimony and mission there to you. 

[00:49:03] Chance: I would just add that you're creating a new normal becoming a holy. It can be a really practical thing. Something as simple as just like we were touching on earlier, just continuing to say yes.
Yeah. Taking the time to like. Pray, you know, every day and say, I'm going to commit to 10 minutes of prayer with scripture, or I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go visit the Lord in adoration, or I'm going to compliment my spouse in these ways that are really difficult. Um, I think being able to start somewhere could be a huge catalyst to something where, you know, you may be in a year or even last or more, but you'll maybe be doing something that you didn't think was possible for yourself in terms of virtue and holiness by starting really, really small.

[00:49:46] Jim Jansen: I love it. So, if people want to find out more, they can go to www.mhsfonline.org, uh, and we'll link those in the show notes. Thank you, guys. Thanks for what you're doing. Thank you for, I mean, just, yeah, delightful conversation. And I'm pretty, yeah, pretty sure there you are tapping into a desire that's deep in a lot of couples who don't quite know where to go and are pretty, pretty hopeful that their, their path to holiness together, it doesn't involve one of them dying young.
So, thank you. Thank you for that. 

[00:50:17] Chance: Yeah. Thanks for having us. 

[00:50:20] Jim Jansen: All right. Some of you know somebody who needs to hear this. So, uh, share this out. Maybe it's your spouse. Um, right. They're like, Hey honey, just take a listen. You know, give me the benefit of the doubt. Humor me. Yeah. Share this out with somebody who needs to hear it.
Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to the equip cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip.archomaha.org. God bless and see you next time.