[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Quip Cast. So today I sit down with Brian Miller from Coach Approach Ministries. Uh, Brian is a coach and a consultant. He served as a pastor for many years, and Brian and I dive deep into how do you do change? Well, change is an individual, as a community. Uh, we talk about the five keys to adaptive change.

How do you, how do you know what, what the real obstacle is? Is it technical? Is it in my head? How do you, how do you regulate the heat and the intensity of the, the, the change that people are experiencing? Uh, we talk about fun things like temptation bundling, like how do you, how do you link the change that you want in your own life, the habit you're trying to cultivate to the temptation, the thing that's distracting you.

It's really a very fun, practical conversation. If, if you have any sort of change in your life, want it or not that you're having to do, uh, you're gonna love today's conversation, so take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Janssen.

Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

Brian Miller, welcome to the Equip Cast. How you doing? 

[00:01:23] Brian Miller: I'm doing great Jim, and it's great to be on your podcast. I met you, uh, through a class not too long ago and you just strike me. As the three C guy. So, uh, character, you know, just upstanding character of like, you know, I'm, you can count on me, you're just, you.

And, and people get character like in seconds. It's not like, oh, I've known you for years and I'm sure you can tell instantly, and I can tell that about you. And then competence, I think. And you, I just, it seems like it's so. It seems like there's so little competence. Sometimes I feel safe in your hands, like, oh, this guy knows what he's doing.

Oh, thanks. And then, um, chemistry you're easy to talk to is you're not, you know, you want to be in partnership and conversation, so you're a three C guy, Jim, and Awesome. That's a, that's a good club to be in. Thanks, Brian. Didn't know it was like a club, but Oh, we have meetings. There are dues, and you can just send it to me.

I'll get it there. That's great. Thank you. I, I was looking for a way, how do you know, how do I, how do I pay up? Whatever you think it is, just probably double it and send it my way and I'll, I'll make sure. 

[00:02:34] Jim Jansen: Perfect. Well thanks Brian. I appreciate, I appreciate that. Again, I was, you know, blessed to kind of.

Sit under your tutelage as a coach and, and an instructor. And that's what kind of spurned, like a Okay. I wanna talk to Brian. We, we need to have a, a conversation on the equip cast about change because I, I feel like that's, if there's anything universal, whether, you know, whether you're in, you're, you're doing just family life, whether it's business professional, uh, in church world.

Man change is all around us and it's just not an automatic thing. It doesn't always go well. And it just would come up in our conversations, coaching, and I'm like, okay. I wanna, I want to dive into this with Brian, but before we do, I just wanna give you a chance, like, tell us a little bit about your story.

Uh, when did you first meet the Lord? How did you step into mission? Give people a little bit of your, your background. 

[00:03:29] Brian Miller: Sure. I'll try to keep it short. It's a, it, it could be, it could be a long story, I suppose, but I grew up in Sunday school. I, uh, my, I, I was the youngest of three by far, so I was almost like an only child.

Mm-hmm. And so my mom would take me to church. And I really wasn't asking why dad didn't go. I'm, uh, you know, I come to find out, he told me he got enough. He was raised Southern Baptist and he got enough by the third, the age of 13. He thought he was good. He was just a fast learner. He's like, I got it all.

Yeah. He, you know, he just, it was hell firing brimstone for him. He's like, I get it. I get it. He came back to church later in life. My brothers didn't go. I'm not sure if that's 'cause dad didn't go. I, I really don't know. I like Sunday school, man. Zola Wolf told me that Jesus was Lord, and I said, amen. You know, at four or five.

And as far as I know, I mean, you know, I, I, I, I never doubted that, to be honest. Mm-hmm. It was like George Washington was the first president. Jesus' Lord. I, I got it. I, I, these are all accurate to me. If I could get outta church. I did. I didn't. I, I hated church. It was, it was boring to be honest and pretentious a bit.

And I knew there was something there like this, this, these, these, these aren't my people, but you're a kid. You don't know. And so Sunday school really, I, I mean I was, I was the best student 'cause I was always asking questions. I was curious, I'm, I am a curious person, I'm a learner. Mm-hmm. And then I was looking for.

A better reflection of church. And it just so happens I started right outta high school dating a girl who went to, uh, a different church and, and I liked it. It was more, it was not pretentious, it was more I. Homey. It made Jesus more real to me. Um, her family I felt like, lived out Christianity way I had not seen before.

The girl didn't work out, but I still go to that church. Wow. I've been other places. But today I go to that church with my wife and she leads worship there. And, um. Yeah, so, so anyway, to, to get to warp speed into Yeah. Something a little more interesting. I, I loved computers. It was, it was the eighties, it was brand new.

I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a computer engineer. I went to the University of Illinois. I got a degree. It was the top school nation at the time. Yeah. If not number one. Number two, it was a big deal. IBM hired me right outta college in Austin, Texas. And, uh, and I loved it. I, I was excited to go to IBM and I was going to a church, uh, with a friend.

It was a big church. It was a good church. Jim, I don't wanna, you know, as the church I grew up in, was it a good church? I didn't like it. This was a good church. Mm-hmm. But I found myself coming home after church every Sunday saying, isn't there more to it than this? God. Mm-hmm. I, I was just talking to God.

I was just, you know, is this it? I mean, it's gotta be more, it's gotta be more to it than this. And then one day, and I say this not lightly, and it's not really ever happened again, but very audibly, God said to me. Do something about it or shut up. That's great. And you know, does God say shut up? It seems so to some of us, I think.

Yes. Well, and I don't, I wasn't great at, so, so I, I left IBM almost immediately and went to seminary with this. Church group that I'd started going to with this girl and, uh, had a great education and, um, you know, I was like, what did I, I felt like I, I was saying God wanted me to be a pastor, but I really think God wanted me to be what I am today, a developer.

[00:07:22] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:23] Brian Miller: Of leader. And I feel like that's been my calling ever since, and, and it's been a long and winding road to get here, but I'm glad I'm here. 

[00:07:32] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And you served for, as a pastor before, you've now stepped into the kind of like this leadership formation role. How many years did you serve as a pastor?

[00:07:41] Brian Miller: 20. 20 years. And in that 20 years I planted a church. 

[00:07:45] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's a, I mean, that's not a, that's not a short stint. 

[00:07:48] Brian Miller: It's not, it's just unreal to think. I'm like, when was that? 20 years. That's a, that's a chunk of time. Yeah. I should remember it. Yeah. Um, you know, it should be a weight Yeah. Of some sort. It feels like it went really fast.

[00:08:04] Jim Jansen: I could relate. I mean, I served as a missionary for 20 years, you know, college, college ministry. In fact, uh, some overlaps. I actually spent a lot of time, we did some training at the University of Illinois, so I spent a lot of time, uh, on the champaign or band campus. Nice. Love it. It's gorgeous. I mean, the, the main kind of quad, which is, it's not even a quad, it's just a giant Well, there's multiple quads it feels like.

Yeah. It's so long. I mean, it's just, but it's beautiful. Yeah. Campus. I thought you looked familiar. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I don't know if our time actually overlapped, but 

[00:08:35] Brian Miller: Oh, yeah. I don't know. And there's like 40,000 students, so. 

[00:08:39] Jim Jansen: Yeah. But yeah, it's a, it's a great, uh, again, we did summer trainings there, so I was there in, in, in the summer.

But yeah, I did go there for a visit Beau, beautiful campus. Really, it was, appreciate it. Brian. Maybe as we, as we start to talk about like, okay, we're, you know, we're like both reflecting. It's like, oh, 20 years. How did that happen? I mean, change, change just happens whether we, whether we want it or not. Yes.

And it's a, you know, change management. How do you do change? Well, all those things are, I mean, that's, everybody's interested in that, that isn't, that's not a uniquely Christian, uh, or religious topic. I mean, there are, you know, there are folks in the corporate world who are pr who are paid Buku box to try and help individuals and organizations do change.

Well, just we're, we're coming at this, you know, as, as Christian men. How do we approach the challenges of change as persons of faith just kind of level set us here? 

[00:09:39] Brian Miller: Yeah, and I think it's you. You know, you and I grew up in a time when change began to accelerate. 

[00:09:46] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:46] Brian Miller: And if we look at this in a bigger historical way, which I think to me is always helpful, you went through.

You know, the first 1900 years after Jesus and, and some things changed, but not at a great rate, not at a, mm-hmm. Things were still kind of the same. You made a fire, you cooked food. You, you know Right. You got somewhat of an education the best you could and, and you did the, you know, but, but then, you know, things really started to change in the fifties, sixties.

Things got much more complicated. Certainly as we get to today. I'll jump ahead. You know, in 2010, seems like it was longer ago than that, but that's when the iPhone came out was 2010, 15 years ago. Mm-hmm. Wasn't even that to me. That's not that long ago compared to, you know, but everything has changed now.

And now we're into AI and things are changing so fast that. That in, in the eighties, nineties, you and I would have this conversation. We would've said, listen, everything's gonna change. We've gotta get ahead of it. We've gotta navigate it. But change has sped up so much now. That even as I think about should you use ai, you actually do have a few companies saying, let's just wait a year or two and see where it lands.

And if you think about that, you think, mm-hmm are you kidding me? Wait a year or two to see where AI lands? But it's changing so fast. Mm-hmm. That, that does me adopting ai, for instance, actually going to get me anywhere, is it? I could literally get farther behind. By adopting it now and then find out, oh, it doesn't work like that anymore.

And I've made all these changes to try to stay ahead of it and I, and I can't. So there is a, and it's just gonna get, I'll use the word worse, I guess. I'm making a, a, a, I hear a value judgment there. Value making a value judgment. I, it's the, the speed of change is only going to increase. And so we need some and, and.

The final piece of this is, you know, and I'm trying to think about it from a God point of view too, but, but we, we do not know where it's going. I'm trying to think that there's a, there's a word that Kurzwell, who was a futurist, used the, the singularity that he said in like 2040. You just, you just have no idea what's gonna be beyond 2040 and that's only 15 years.

Forward. So it used to be we could look forward, we kind of knew where we were going, what's gonna happen, but I'm pretty convinced today that we have no idea. Where we're, I don't know where coach training's gonna be in five years. I don't know where the institution of the Catholic church is gonna be in five years, I believe.

You know, I believe, and God has a plan and I think, mm-hmm. This is how I'll finish it, Jim. Yeah. I think God likes to show up in the change. And that may just be my personality that, you know, everything's going to change. And, and the, the institutions are going to have massive, massive change. And I'm sure that worries the dickens out of a lot of people.

Like, oh, no, no, no, we cannot. This is, you know? Right. But I think God gets kind of excited to say, you know, it's not the end, it's just the beginning. 

[00:13:21] Jim Jansen: No. I mean that resonates with, with me, Brian. I, I was thinking that there's something about, you know, God has this pattern of loving, whether it's, again, just like looking at the way he chooses, the most unlikely people.

Individuals and then, you know, the, the Israelites, like the, the nations, like he loves the surprise. He, he loves the unlikely. And to the degree that we can embrace that, I think it helps us as people of faith to hopefully be just a touch less anxious. As we deal with. 

[00:13:57] Brian Miller: Absolutely. 

[00:13:59] Jim Jansen: What feels like more change than our ancestors had to deal with.

[00:14:02] Brian Miller: Yeah. The change is gonna create, create anxiety. But in the church in general, I mean the churches I'm around, you definitely see a lot of people like, oh, this is the end. You know, Jesus is coming back. This is the end, and and I'm like. I don't think it is. I, you know, I could be wrong. And the good news is if I'm wrong, I get to go to heaven, you know, and I'm, I, I win.

Yeah. It's a good thing to be wrong about. But if I'm right that this is not the end, this is just the beginning, then we've gotta get our heads down and navigate this thing and figure out. How does God show up when, you know, is the, the is is the institution and the way we know it, the only way God can show up.

I don't believe that I've, I've sensed and I, this is very much a sensing, you know, as. I could go back and pastor, now there are churches that'd like me to come back and pastor now, and I, and, and I like these. I, I like some of these churches. I like some of them, but I just really feel like God's saying that's not where I'm gonna do the work.

Hmm. And you, you know, the church may hear that and say, how dare he, you know, it's like, well, he can do whatever he wants to do. And, and he kind of, he's, I feel like he's positioning me in a way to say. You know, I'm I, and, and you and I are not gonna see what comes, we'll die before we see what comes. 

[00:15:24] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:25] Brian Miller: But, but he wants us in the transition. He wants us to, to be people of faith. 

[00:15:30] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Brian, let's, let's dig into this. There's, I mean, I'm gonna make an assertion here. I think you'll agree with this, that although. The, you know, the word of God, what you hear, we see stories of change and there's certainly principles we can come out, uh, we can pull out of that.

I mean, you know, with like, Hey, trust me, I'm God, you're not being what, one of the, one of the biggest. But there are also some, uh, mental models for change, you know, developed by social scientists, o other folks that seem to be really helpful in guiding, uh, individuals and, and communities through change.

Are there any of those that you found particularly helpful? In helping us navigate change. 

[00:16:15] Brian Miller: There, there are a lot of models. The, the number one for me has been some, some of the thoughts around adaptive change, which is Ronald Heifetz from Harvard, of course. Uh, I think he's, I think he's, I think he's still alive.

It's, but it was maybe eighties or nineties. He was starting to talk about adaptive change where you need to make a change, but you, you honestly don't know what it is. You know, there needs to be a change, but you don't know where it's gonna go. And then, oh, I'll come up with, uh, Bolinger wrote a book. Yeah.

Uh, canoeing the Mountains where he took, yeah. 

[00:16:53] Jim Jansen: Todd Todd's actually been an, uh, a, uh, guest on the Quip cast before. Oh. 

[00:16:57] Brian Miller: He's been a guest on my podcast as well. He, he is, yeah. I love his book. A good guy. He's also, he's also a three C guy as well. He's a good guy. Uh, not everybody had come on my podcast, you know, he too big.

He's too big, but he, he was happy. He's done it twice. So anyway, Todd Todd wrote this book and he used the analogy of Lewis and Clark going west and they're looking for the source, you know, the West coast source of the Mississippi. And they, or the Missouri, I think the Missouri River. Mm-hmm. And they find the source, and they're not even to the Rocky Mountains yet.

And they're like, mm-hmm. Okay, so we have this goal, and now it's like, that's not gonna work. So he, he talks about how they have to rethink their, their way of changing things to get there. Anyway, great book, great analogy, but there are. Five principles I that I've written down here that I think might be helpful to you and I or, and to your listeners to think, uh, ways to think about adaptive change.

[00:17:56] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. Awesome. Okay. What do you got? 

[00:17:58] Brian Miller: So the first one is to distinguish between technical problems from adaptive challenges. So the question is, is there a technical solution to this or, and sometimes Ann, is it something that has to change about me? My beliefs and my values, and, and so this comes up, one way this has come up for me has been like, I'm, I'm building a coaching practice.

Uh, I'm doing it with, uh, with businesses and nonprofits and it's, it, Jim, it's hard work getting clients. This is something that. It's just way too true. Uh, there are some technical things I have learned that have helped me figure out how to get clients, but the number one thing is about me believing that I can help them.

Me believing that I should get out there and talk to people, overcoming my introversion. These are adaptive things that have to change about me. And so first of all, just identifying what is technical about this. Mm-hmm. What is value about this? 

[00:19:08] Jim Jansen: Man, that's huge. So you're saying like in the technical versus adaptive, sure.

There might be a tool or a skillset, but deeper than that. There might be a mental block, a perspective, my, my habits, my self identity that actually needs to change. 

[00:19:27] Brian Miller: Oh, absolutely. And so let's do, you know, it's like the example of, you know, church and people coming to church. You know, we have this model of, you know.

This institutional model, there's a building, there's, you know, there's a sermon. There's these things that go into work, right? Sunday morning, 9:00 AM Sunday morning, 9:00 AM and you're like, what? But we now live in a 24 7 world, and so, okay, we, we may have to do some things differently. Well, here's some technical things you can do differently, but the biggest barrier to any of this stuff is me.

Me overcoming, you know, I'm almost 60 now, and I finally have come to that point of like, okay, okay, let's cut the change down. You know what, I'm tired. I don't, I don't want to do something different, you know? Yeah, no, 

[00:20:17] Jim Jansen: this is huge. I just had someone kind of like on that question. I wish I, I, I wish I could give him a shout out, but I don't remember who it was.

Who basically is, oh, uh, now I remember friend of mine, father Scott Schomer, it's like. What do you believe about the people who aren't coming? Right, right. What do you believe about your ability to connect with them and all of a sudden it's like, oh, no. Like, you know, I, I believe in my head Jesus loved them so much.

He died for them. But I'm not willing to, to be uncomfortable for even a moment to start up a conversation. It's like, oh no. Yeah. It's like, because I don't believe I could actually be their friend. I, I don't believe there's any interest or need in their heart and all of these assumptions that I actually know aren't true and suddenly.

The real work of change is all about my heart. 

[00:21:14] Brian Miller: Well, this happened during COVID in particular, where people stopped coming to church. And uh, and if I, as I listen to people, they say the reason people are not coming to church is because they're lazy. It's because they're lazy. Yes. And, and it's a belief, right?

It's not because. Our church isn't meeting their spiritual needs. It's not, it's not that. It's not that. It couldn't possibly be that. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And they're, one, they're lazy, and two, they're, they just don't, they're not real Christians. They don't have the faith. It's like. Boy, that's a big assumption.

[00:21:49] Jim Jansen: Oh, Brian, if I can, if I can pile on there like you can, this, this happens a lot in the Catholic world, uh, again, well-documented statistically Catholics who, uh, leave the practice of their Catholic faith and they'll join, let's say an evangelical church. Right. That Catholics tend to go and become nuns, not, not little women in habits, but like no religious affiliation.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, or an evangelical Protestant. And their Catholic friends say, well, they just want to drink coffee in church. They're just there for the music. Right. That there's all these assumptions about why they left. They want a donut. Yeah. But then you talk to them and they're like. No, this church taught me to pray.

They taught me to, they taught me to read the word of God, like Jesus is, is, is real in my life. In a way, it's like uhoh and like the story we told ourself and what, what those who have left are self-reporting. That there's, there's a mismatch there and there's a belief that's gonna make it really hard for us to, to restart conversations with those friends and family.

[00:22:57] Brian Miller: Absolutely. And, and I can tell the same stories about people who left our church, a Protestant church and went and became Catholic. Mm-hmm. You're thinking, you know, so they're, they're basically saying the same thing. I learned to pray. I've actually encountered God, you know? Yeah. For the first time. It's like, oh, that's, you know, that's terrific.

Um, I've always had a real openness. Um, if you look, there's, there's the Big five personality, and, and, and I, I'm, I'm Big O I'm open, you know, and mm-hmm. Um. Uh, not everybody is, I have to remind myself. 

[00:23:28] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:29] Brian Miller: Not everybody is, and so, but, but we need an, an amount of openness to adapt to the change and to, I just recently, I had been putting off using AI in any way.

Not that I'm overly against it. I just, I don't know. I just had some beliefs about, I just thought, ah, and so finally I said, okay, I'm. I am going to add cha GPT to my life in a regular way. And, and, you know, I definitely had to change my mentality and my thinking. I bought a third monitor just so that Chachi PT could always be up and with me.

To figure the thing out, but I definitely had to change my mental values. I just started doing exercise much, much differently. And you know, how do you lose weight? Jim, let me give you the secret. You might wanna write this down. There's two steps. Exercise and diet. What are you serious? Yeah, those are the two things I think Jesus wrote about those in the Sermon on the Mount.

He, I don't think he did actually. It was just a joke. But what it needed to change was my mentality about my time, about my person, about, you know, just all these things. Uh, there every, it was, there was a minor amount of technical issue and a major amount of mental. Change. 

[00:24:56] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Okay. That's huge Brian. And I feel like we could stay here all day.

We could, but there's, but there's five, right? So it's like, okay. Right. Number, number one, lemme give. Yeah. Technical versus adaptive. What else? Yeah. 

[00:25:08] Brian Miller: Let me give you the second one. 'cause I think this one's really is helpful too. You need to regulate the heat. So what, what hee said is you, you need, he's talking to a leader and he is saying what you need to do is push change at the maximum speed that people can take.

Hmm. Is a maximum. There is a maximum you if you push them too hard. They will rebel and, and honestly, some of them will rebel anyway. You, you, you have to figure that in there.

[00:25:42] Jim Jansen: I feel like there's a story in the Bible that could, you know, Exodus is, Exodus is part of our cycle of readings right now, and like, oh man, there's precedent.

[00:25:52] Brian Miller: The, the rebellion there will be rebellion. And in fact, there is also a truth that I think is really helpful, that if there's no rebellion, you don't have the heat high enough. 

[00:26:02] Jim Jansen: Right. I mean, even if you're Moses or Jesus, not everybody's gonna agree. 

[00:26:08] Brian Miller: No, no, no, no, no. Even Jesus though, right? 

[00:26:11] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Okay, so how do you, how do you regulate the heat?

How do you know when you're in the right zone? I love that metaphor. 

[00:26:20] Brian Miller: Yeah, so a major, this is surprising to me and, and a major learning for me as I became a coach, was the idea of gradient. And you may know gradient from like PowerPoint, like, you know, you're doing the color from white to black, and it's just like, it's gray and it gets gray or it gets black.

But there's certainly the idea of a gradient, I find people just don't think in the line of a gradient. So, so if somebody's like, you know, I, well, the people just aren't. You know, making the change and they just won't listen to me and they, what they feel like is they could either kind of keep kind of saying something, trying to get people's attention or.

They could light themselves on fire. Those are the two options, you know, and, and like, I'm willing to light myself on fire. I just, you know, it'll also burn the building down. And I'm like, right, right, right. It'll burn the building down. So if you're at a one or a two. And 10 is the only thing you can think of.

Let me just ask you, what does a four look like? And right there, the coaching in that. 

[00:27:30] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:27:30] Brian Miller: They al, they almost instantly are like, oh, I could say it a little louder. I could talk to different people. I could put it a different way. I could, you know, I could show, I could bring in a something to show them like, okay, well let's even play with this.

What would a six look like? Oh, okay. You know, I could, I could like. Right. Take a stand, you know, and say, now I'm doing this. You know, if so, you know, but, but just the, just the idea of understanding what the options are and the regulation is so high opening to people that they, for whatever reason, I don't know what socially, why they don't, but they don't, they think it's either I can kind of whisper or set myself on fire.

[00:28:16] Jim Jansen: Right. And, and the irony is. Once they're past the mental block that there's only on an on and an off switch. Right? Once they realize there's a gradient, their ability to diagnose, Hey, and this would be a three and this would be a five, and this is a seven. They're, they're actually pretty good at figuring out what that looks like for them and for their community.

It's just getting past the mental block of, oh yeah, I, I, I need to regulate this and, and find the right temperature for right now. 

[00:28:48] Brian Miller: So you were asking how you could know you, you should raise if, if. You should probably raise the heat right now. Whatever the change is, whether the leadership, particularly in leadership, you should probably raise the heat today by 10, 15%.

Then you need to look and see if anybody's rebelling. Mm-hmm. Anybody's trying to sabotage you. If they're not, then I would raise it another 10 or 15%. You, you actually, when you start to see somebody rebel or sabotage, that's a sign that you're actually making the change. And so what mostly happens when this hap, you know, and for a leader, somebody particularly in church world, somebody gets mad and they start to throw a fit and they're.

They're saying things and then the leader gets defensive and they start fighting back, or they close down. The leader doesn't want to hear it. You know? And, and that's the exact opposite of what you should do. This is a mm-hmm. Prime opportunity to really take the temperature to learn, to care for people to say, man, I know.

We're changing things that you love, and let's stop and grieve those things together and let's celebrate, you know, those things that were important to us. We have such an opportunity. But what usually stops leaders is that first sabotage makes them mad. No, you know, nobody's on my side, which isn't true.

[00:30:12] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:13] Brian Miller: You know?

[00:30:13] Jim Jansen: Uh, yeah. Back to the perspective, I'm all alone and I, gosh, and I love the way you, you talk about this. To be a compassionate, pastoral leader doesn't mean you stop cooking. You don't turn the heat off, but it's how do you, how do you attend to those who are feeling the discomfort of the change?

You attend to them, of course you attend to them. Yeah. Man, this okay, Brian, this is, this is all gold. What's number three? 

[00:30:38] Brian Miller: Number three is give the work back to the people. And so this is the difference between. Sharing an inspired vision and inspiring a shared vision, which is leadership challenge, cos and Posner.

But the difference between them is, it used to be when I, and you probably, I'm, I'm putting you in my category, maybe younger than me or, or maybe older than me, I don't know. But, but, but the, it used to be they kind of told us, go up to the mountain, get the vision from God, and bring it back to the people.

Which was what Moses did, and you remember you were talking about Exodus. They, people didn't like it. It didn't, it honestly didn't work out real well. In those senses, but, but instead of sharing an inspired vision of like, oh, I show up, I tell you what it is, I, I, I have a story about that too. But, uh, instead, you should inspire a shared vision.

And so you, you have the people come along with you and you help them address the challenge and help them have them help you think it through. The best leader I ever saw in, in a church world. He was not, he was, he wasn't the smartest guy. I'm not saying he was dumb, but he wasn't the smartest guy for sure.

He did not have a big education. I, I could out preach him. He wasn't, he was okay, but he wasn't just great. But you know what he did? He brought the people into, uh, together, said, here's the problem. Let's figure out a plan. And then he worked the plan. It was, it was, he brought the people into it and let them have the work back.

So here's my story. I, I was, I just remember it was probably, uh, late nineties, early two thousands, probably early two thousands, and I was going to these conferences where they'd say, you know, Brian, whatever your vision is, you need to double it. Double it, Brian, double it. Triple it. And so I was drinking that Kool-Aid, you know, and like, and I, but first of all, I'm a visionary in the first place.

And so any vision I have, if you double it, I took over the world, you know, it's like, good. And we're gonna take over Mars too. That, that's so good. Yeah, that's, that's the double. So I remember saying to our church, you know, here's the, here's the vision. We're gonna plant a church in every county in Illinois and then we're gonna, you know, X, Y, z, blah, blah, blah.

And this one business leader, with good leader, good giver, came up to me and shook my hand and said, good luck. And there you catch it. Right? There's so much in that he was basically saying, yeah, good luck. You know, it's, you know, yeah. Enjoy your trip alone. He wasn't invested. He wasn't gonna go with me. I, I'd lost him immediately.

And so I've learned so much. And, and one thing I do, and I don't know if everybody, the first thing I do is take my vision and cut it in half. Wow. Make it it smaller. Yeah. Don't think bigger, think smaller. Bring it to the people. Get buy-in. You know, one thing I don't, I, I don't know the Catholic church like, like I'm, but, but I'm assuming there's these things that happen in the Catholic church that happen and all the churches, which is some leaders in the church, won't let anybody do anything.

[00:33:59] Jim Jansen: I don't know what you're talking about. I. 

[00:34:00] Brian Miller: They won't let people do anything. They're like, I've got No, from time to time. Why don't you include some people? It just makes it harder. Yeah. You know, I'm just gonna do this all by myself. And, uh, we recently had a leader leave in our church that was doing a ministry, and I know they were thinking, gosh, when I leave, this is gonna fall completely apart.

And my wife took over the ministry and she just, she just, she started, uh, chat groups and, you know. Message people and, and it has expanded, you know, exponentially. It's just like, because she's including people, right? She brought people in. Yeah. That's so good. That's the only way we can go through this amount of adaptive change is 'cause it's so big that we can't, we can't navigate it all.

[00:34:45] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:46] Brian Miller: We can't. 

[00:34:47] Jim Jansen: Well, and I mean, at so many levels now suddenly you're like, well, do we believe, right. I mean, kind of back to, you know, back to Exodus and Moses, like, what. Do, do we believe that God's gonna pour his spirit out on others as well? That, that right. That, that, that there's this vision that like, I mean, don't get me wrong.

There's something special about Moses, but Joshua and, you know, like the, the leaders of thousands and, and some of the like. They're given a share of the vision. They're given a share of the responsibility. 

[00:35:20] Brian Miller: Well look at the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament about the Spirit. If you think about the Spirit and the Old Testament, and maybe I'm, maybe I am overstating this.

I don't think so. The Spirit was on one person. It was on David, it was on Moses was on Samson. You know one person, Deborah, right? It was just on one person. Gideon, just one person. What happened in the New Testament? The spirit's on everybody, including people that all the leaders are going on them seriously?

Yeah. The Holy Spirit's on them. Yeah, that doesn't seem right. The Holy Spirit is the first thing you get and, uh, the Holy Spirit. So, so obviously, and I could go on and on about. Mm-hmm. You know, even back to Adam and Eve. So God made all these things. He said, this is good, this is good, this is good. And then he made Adam and put him in the garden and said this, this isn't good.

Why wasn't it good? Well, he was alone. He needed a partner. And so what did, what did God first looked for pigs and dogs and you know, it's like, oh, God married him and I, I'm pushing on that theology to be honest, because he didn't want us to marry a pig or a dog or a hippo or anything. Mm-hmm. He wanted, and so he made another human, but he, you know, the one thing we know for sure was it was a different gender.

Mm-hmm. He made the new person different. Because it's not good to only have one kind of person. We need all kinds of people. Mm-hmm. And the body of Christ in Ephesians five, Jim, I could preach on this for days. Don't Yeah. Don't test me. Don't try me. Yeah. 

[00:36:58] Jim Jansen: No, I, I, I mean, I, I love it. It's like it's still from the very beginning.

It's not good for the man to be alone. The responsibility doing ministry alone, it's not, it's not good. It doesn't work. 

[00:37:13] Brian Miller: It's a mistake we've made, and I don't know if the Catholic Church has made it, but we've made it to say, I remember even people talking about we should let the professionals do the ministry.

Like, you know, that's the wrong direction. 

[00:37:26] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean it, yeah, it's, it's, it's contrary to God's spirit being poured out on all people. We would say, like, as we just lean in just to baptismal theology, it's like, no, the spirit's been poured into you and there is a mission and, and a call that you have.

You know, that's, that's real, that, that matters. Even if you're not clergy, even if you're not serving in a ministerial role, you know, uh, caring for, for God's people, you've got a mission to extend the kingdom 

[00:37:56] Brian Miller: just by virtue of your baptism. So theologically, but also just in change management, you cannot manage all the change yourself anymore.

There's just no way you, you cannot, and in fact, the number one thing I would say for most church boards to do is get a 20-year-old. On your board as fast as you can. Yes. Say more about that. Because they know stuff you don't know. They know stuff you, there is no, and it used to be, I mean, I don't know about your churches, but I can tell you our churches, you gotta be over 50.

If you're 50 and on a board, you're probably the youngest person on the board. Oh yeah, you're the young guy and and that's got to stop right now. It has to stop. We're not gonna know we're gonna lose so much if we don't bring 40, 30 and 20 year olds onto our leadership teams and listen to them. Which goes into my fourth point, which is protect early warning voices because there are people that are gonna say, Hey, I, I can kind of see some problems coming up ahead.

And if we're not careful, institutions tell those people to be quiet. Yes. We don't wanna hear it. 

[00:39:07] Jim Jansen: Oh, and you say, I I love that first word. Protect. 

[00:39:11] Brian Miller: Yeah.

[00:39:11] Jim Jansen: Early warning voices.

[00:39:13] Brian Miller: So you need to bring early warning. This is, this is my role on every board I'm on is. They're like, oh man, you see things we don't see.

And I'm like, okay, you, and it can frustrate me because I'm like, but you're not doing anything about it. Mm-hmm. But at least they're listening and can see it. But this is the number one thing a church could do is bring on a 20, 30, 40-year-old, even onto their leadership team immediately and just listen, you know, what?

What do you see? What's going on? How could we be better? 

[00:39:46] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, it's huge. I mean, and it just, it's just a good idea anyway. But it's especially ridiculous when we find ourselves, I mean, again, I've, I've sat, I've been a guest in, you know, a number of these listening to a leadership team or a pastoral council team with great sincerity saying like, how do we get young people?

How do we get young families? How do we, and they're like, well, I mean, ask 'em. Like it, it's a weird thing to ask that que it's a great question, but to ask that question with nobody who's 20 and nobody who's 30, and nobody who still has kids at home to ask that question without them in the room, that's a little odd.

[00:40:29] Brian Miller: Oh, it's, they'll tell you it's very odd today because things are so different than, you know, it's like, is it just a generation gap or are things different? Things are different and they're going to get even more different. Bolsinger brought it out really well in this book with the Lewis and Clark stuff that on this. 

[00:40:45] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:46] Brian Miller: Journey, there were two people at least who were not going to be heard. One was the Indian woman, uh, SIA and I, that I think he says it differently and, and I don't mean to mispronounce it, I just don't know how to pronounce it right, but, but there's the Indian woman and then there's also a slave. Yorks, there is a slave on the on, on the team and they give them both votes.

[00:41:09] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Which is crazy. 

[00:41:11] Brian Miller: It is insane that this happened at all because. 

[00:41:13] Jim Jansen: This is, this is like. Well, man, I don't, I don't know the year, is this still the 1700, is this still like 1790s? 

[00:41:20] Brian Miller: No, this is, this is Jefferson. Jefferson did this. He was elected in 1800, so it's 18. 1800. Okay. 1810 or no, before that? 1804. 1805.

[00:41:29] Jim Jansen: Yeah. But, but way before. Women's suffrage, you know? Oh, way before civil. No, it wasn't even about that. 

[00:41:35] Brian Miller: It wasn't, and, and which I can't remember if it was Lewis or Clark that had the slave, he, he did not let the slave go after it was all over. Right. He did not change his mind about slavery, which I wish he would've, but he, but it wasn't about that.

It was about we are in a middle. Of nowhere and have no idea what we're doing. We've got to listen to everybody. 

[00:41:56] Jim Jansen: Well, and the irony I remember, I, this is such a good book, by the way. Those of you who were, were talking about canoeing the mountains by Todd Bolsinger, he, he talks about Saka. JOA was the only one.

Who had been there. Yeah, that's right. Right. She's like, so it, it was really insightful. I mean, you know, that their biases didn't, uh, presumably right against a Native American woman. She's like, I'm actually from here. When everybody else was off the map, she's like, oh, we're going home. You know, she's a Shoshone if, if I, if I, if I have my hi history right.

Shoes, uh, from the Shoshone tribe. And so she was familiar with the geography. She knew people too. Yeah. She knew people. And it's like, again, app application to a church. You're like, okay. So we feel like God is calling us to reach. Unchurched 20 somethings, you know, young adults, right? In our, in our neighborhood community.

Well, you know what? The only people who have been there are. Young adults there, there and there are young adults who know the Lord, who might at least be on the periphery of your faith community, who you could welcome in and they can be your guides 'cause they've been there. They know that terrain, they know the people. 

[00:43:15] Brian Miller: We need. We need mentors who are younger than us now for sure. There's no other way around it.

[00:43:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's huge.

[00:43:21] Brian Miller: So the fifth and final one is anchor change in new habits and identity. So this, this makes sense. Mm-hmm. That to anchor the habits, you know, but lemme give you an example of a way I recently anchored habits.

I had been out of the habit of. Reading my Bible and do a morning devotional. I was, I was, I'll be honest with you, Jim, I was out of the habit. 

[00:43:42] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:43] Brian Miller: And I, I knew I needed to restart it, but it just wasn't happening. And that, I think that's the different, you know, what's the technical challenge? The technical challenge is I could, I got an app.

I just need to read the, you know, I just need to open it. It takes 10 minutes. But what's the problem? The problem is I'm not doing it. I'm not deciding, I'm not triggered to do it or whatever. So I was thinking this through and I was reminded of an old technique that I learned about, uh, probably 15 years ago called temptation bundling.

And in temptation bundling, you, you tie whatever it is you want to, something you really can't. Do you, you're so tempted by the other thing that it creates this trigger. And so the connection was, for me, I just, when I said connection, the New York Times Connections puzzle, I do it every day. I love it.

Mm-hmm. I wake up thinking, oh, I could do the puzzle today. I, it's like eating. I'm not gonna skip a meal. I'm not gonna, like, I, you know, there are people that are, you know, I forgot to eat today. I didn't, I didn't forget to eat. But I didn't forget to do connections. I love connections, and so I simply, yeah.

And, and I simply said, I will not do connections until I read my devotion. Mm-hmm. And, and honest to goodness, for the last 90 days, I've read my devotion every day. Mm-hmm. Every day because I anchored it in a new habit. I, I don't know about the identity part there yet, but, but that's the fifth one. 

[00:45:17] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

Brian, I know. I mean, again, we could talk about this forever. We've gone a lot of, I mean, you shared a lot of great stories and the these five, the, you know, these five, uh, I dunno what you, what you call 'em, just kinda like tips, uh, principles are, are huge. I just wanna give you a moment to kind like be in kind of like the coach pastor mode.

Somebody who's listening and they're like, oh man, crap. I, I'm avoiding change. I need to do this. All of this is making sense. None of it's making sense. I need to figure this out. What would, what would you say to them? 

[00:45:56] Brian Miller: Sure. So the number one thing, and I, I'd, I'd want to be really careful how I said this is calm down because, and, and I know you can calm down because God is faithful.

God's not surprised by this. God's been through big things before, you know, big cha. There's been, there's been multiple big changes in the world. This is another big one. This is not surprising to him, and he is. He is engaged in caring, and he cares about you. And he, you know, he cares about your being, your happiness, your, you know, he, he cares about you and your family, and your economy.

He care, he cares about all these things. And so this is the great news. You know, I, I can calm down because it's not, it is not all on me. 

[00:46:46] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:46] Brian Miller: Which is great news. 

[00:46:50] Jim Jansen: Oh. 

[00:46:50] Brian Miller: And then I can stop and think, you know, alright, I, I need a reality check. I need, I need to be open to reality of, okay, what's, and, and coaching is the simplest side of coaching is helping people get from where they are to where they want to go.

So I need to take a realistic analysis of where I am. Mm-hmm. And even before that, maybe I need to get a as good a look as I can about where I want to be, and then recognize that gap and start thinking what can we do to move from where we are to where we want to go? And then lots of conversations. But that's the, those are the two big ones.

If I had is one, you know, calm down Gods. God's not leaving. 

[00:47:41] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:42] Brian Miller: God's, you know, God's looking at the next thing. God's not going, hang on. It's so almost over. He's not doing that. Mm-hmm. He's saying there's a place we're going. And then two, get a good sense of where you are and a good sense of where you want to go.

[00:47:57] Jim Jansen: That's awesome, Brian. Thank you. Thanks for the conversation. Thanks for all you do. We'll, we'll link, we didn't talk a lot about Coach Approach Ministries, but we'll link, uh, to that in, in the show notes. Everybody, some of, some of you, you know, somebody who needs to hear this 'cause they're freaked out right now 'cause they've forgotten where they're going.

They haven't, they don't have an accurate assessment of where they're at. They could use some temptation bundling, uh, whatever it is. You share this out with a friend. And again, Brian, thanks for being with us. Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission.

Stay connected with us by going to equip dot arch omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.