[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast. I just sat down with Megan Drapa. Uh, Megan is a researcher and ed specialist for the Vitae Foundation. And we talk about what's really going on in the hearts and minds of women who are contemplating abortion, and it's going to blow your mind. It's going to help turn on its head much of what we have commonly thought and said in an effort to be helpful.
It's a fantastic conversation with a lot of consequence and significance for how we share the gospel and how we share the good news. You're going to love today's conversation. Take a listen. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast, a weekly podcast for the archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen.
Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and your life. And to be fruitful in your mission, let's go.
All right, everybody. Welcome to the equip cast. I'm excited to introduce you to a friend of mine, uh, Megan Dropa. Welcome to the equip cast. 

[00:01:05] Megan Drapa: Thanks so much, Jim. I love being here. I love being here in person. Makes it a little easier. 

[00:01:11] Jim Jansen: Yeah, we can, we can see each other, which we would have been able to see each other anyway, but we can like, you know, like really see each other and we get really excited and we start to like, you know, spit as we talk, we can hit each other, which is a little awkward.
Okay. So. Megan, you are a research and education specialist with the Vitae Foundation here in Omaha, Nebraska for about six years, seven years. 

[00:01:34] Megan Drapa: Yeah, I, I started with Vitae when we lived in Colorado and that was about, it'll be eight years this summer and then we moved to Nebraska that following fall. 

[00:01:45] Jim Jansen: Okay.
So, yeah, we came to Nebraska about the same time, you know, I was, I mean, Omaha, I was born in, born in Nebraska, but many years in Lincoln, Lincoln came, came back to Omaha about the same time. Megan, give everybody just a little bit of context. We're going to dive into your work, but tell everybody just a little bit of your story.
What's your faith journey? 

[00:02:04] Megan Drapa: I am the youngest of nine from the East coast, grew up in upstate New York, which a lot of people don't know that. Upstate New York are diehard Red Sox fans. Well, it could go either way, but you are not necessarily guaranteed Yankee fan. Sure. Yeah, yeah. So, I grew up as a Red Sox fan, youngest of nine in a big Irish Catholic family.
Like both my parents had legacy families in our town, went to Catholic school my entire life. As we were talking just before the, we turned the mics on, my real conversion story was when I was living in DC post college, and I probably hadn't gone to confession since seventh grade 'cause I just didn't know that you do that.
Like culturally, that was not happening among young people in the northeast. My friends came to pick me up for confession after an incident, and I was thrown, and one of the friends now is Sister Anne Cattery with the CFR, so I was so thrown. I was like, people our age do this? And I remember going to confession, and it wasn't this aha moment, I had this reversion, but it was through those friendships and this social buffer.
that surrounded and wrapped me that when I, it was time for me to move out of DC, I was kind of sick of living there. I really decided that Denver was the place to go. I needed to go where I was going to be surrounded by amazing young adults and my faith journey was going to be nurtured. However, it didn't make sense.
I had been given a job offer in Northern Virginia and the job description was based, like they wrote the job for me, and most people couldn't understand what Why I'd be just moving to Denver. But at that time, I had been going to adoration multiple times a week. I had this incredible friendships that even though I didn't know how to pray, the Lord was still speaking into me, and it was not without fear.
There was definitely fear to just move to Denver without knowing a soul and not really having a connection. this great job. I just knew that that's what I was supposed to do. And it was one of those times where the Lord was speaking clearly, even if I did not know how to respond or receive that voice, it was just in my heart.
I knew. So that was the beginning, I would say. Of my faith journey. And it really was Jim, you, your persistence to get me into that mentorship program, even though I was like, I don't have time for that. I have five kids under seven, but, but that's where I learned to pray. And as we were laughing about before the podcast.
Started like my husband says, like, I'm unrecognizable because once you learn how to pray and you learn who your identity is in Christ, it's transformative. And although, you know, that start of my reversion is 20 years ago, and I have, God has always surrounded me by amazing friendships to protect me. It wasn't until these last few years that I have had a relational prayer life. 

[00:05:07] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, Megan. Like both of those. Like, I love how you're like, I mean, I was in adoration. I don't know if I knew how to pray. I know I didn't. Yeah. And yet, right. But yet the Lord, I mean, if there's anything that should be clear from the gospels, he knows how to make the deaf hear and the blind see.
And he found a way to get you right where he wanted you. And then you're like, Oh, wow. And when I could hear when I learned how to hear his voice in prayer and develop that conversational, relational prayer, how transformative that was. I just love that the both, I don't know, just both parts of that, uh, of your story showing up there.
So, okay. So, let's dive in here. Does that make any work as a, as a research and ed specialist for the Vitae foundation? Give us a quick orientation to the work of the Vitae foundation. 

[00:05:57] Megan Drapa: Yeah. Thanks. It's funny, a few years ago I was meeting with a priest in this diocese telling my work and they're like, oh, so you understand evangelization because, because that's what the vitae work really is.
When people hear research, they think they're going to have statistics and incidence rates that we can compare. 

[00:06:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah, bar graphs immediately jump into my head. 

[00:06:16] Megan Drapa: Yes, this is, and it gets me in trouble sometimes because people are like, okay, so I want to see you research, can you give me the peer reviewed article?
Can you give me the stats and the end power on that? And I cannot because this is very different research and it evolved because our founder Carl Landwehr was a lobbyist trying to lobby for pro-life issues over 30 years ago now. He's in Missouri. And he decided that we are losing to euphemisms like planned and choice.
And if we're going to get some political ground here, we need to message our position better. So, he was an excellent fundraiser and relationship person. He got put in touch with the gentleman who started the silver dollar city, forgetting his name. And he thought he'd get money from this guy. And the guy was like, actually, your messaging is horrible.
Um, what you need to do is work with the consumer psychologist who I've commissioned, Dr. Charles Kenny. He understands why people keep coming back to the silver dollar city because. Brand is not based on a product. It's a literal transformation that ends up being an emotional promise that fulfills your needs.
And Dr. Kenny, actually, I think he's a graduate of Notre Dame, a Catholic, but has worked with every major American brand you can think of, including Abbott Pharmaceuticals, uh, getting grants for SAIC over Lockheed Martin and Walmart. 

[00:07:42] Jim Jansen: Tell the, the, the Harley Davidson. 

[00:07:44] Megan Drapa: Yeah, usually I do, I tell this is that it's like he told Harley Davidson, stop selling motorcycles, sell the idea of freedom.
And now Harley Davidson sells way more in apparel, and he's really tapped into the patriotic rebel, which seems like a conflict. Like you're patriotic, but you're a rebel. And often these emotional needs are always tension like that. 

[00:08:05] Jim Jansen: It's brilliant. When you have the eyes to see it, you're like, holy crap, they're not selling motorcycles at all.
Yeah. It's very, and just to make sure, I just want to make sure that people get this silver dollar city is like this Ozark amusement park. That's part time warp right back to like pioneer days of sorts. And it's amazing. I mean, it's a very, very cool experience. And you're saying some of the researchers that were connecting with the Vitae Foundation help them figure out how to message the pro-life message more effectively.
We're like, well, let's, let's just study this amusement park because it's going to help you figure out why people come back. 

[00:08:43] Megan Drapa: Yes, a hundred percent. And I've never been to the silver dollar city, but my understanding and nationally, it's known that. Disney is pretty strict. Like you can never break character.
And so, everything is intentional and it's an intentionality to bring you to an emotional place. So, I understand the silver dollar city is the same way that it's an emotional experience rather than I'm paying to go on a rollercoaster or, and that's what Dr. Kenny understood. And in fact, here's another example they use a lot lately.
His book is, like, a phenomenal interest in reading. It's called The Right Brain Way, The Power to Drive Your Brand, because it's all about branding research. So, he gives the example that in the 80s, Jim, you and I were around. You remember... 

[00:09:27] Jim Jansen: I was, in fact. 

[00:09:29] Megan Drapa: Coke, too. 

[00:09:30] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:09:30] Megan Drapa: Total flop. Yes. Well, the CEO of Coke, Realized or felt threatened that they were losing ground to Pepsi.
So, he conducted a national blind taste test of Coke versus Pepsi. And it turns out diehard Coke fans prefer Pepsi to taste. So, he made Coke too. It had more sugar in it. It was the ingredients. Yes. 

[00:09:55] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:09:55] Megan Drapa: Total flop. Yes. He got such hate mail across the, the world. Somebody planned, like a US Air Force, like, retired lieutenant, planned to be interred with Coke.
And he said, you have abandoned me. You have changed this brand. So, the point is. a survey and you think you're getting a taste test, like this is what people really want. It's not true. What people want is their identity to be fulfilled. And like if your loyal Coke, like Coke brand speaks to you well beyond how the Coke product tastes.

[00:10:28] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and just to make sure like, you know, like for all those like me listening, even though people who like to drink Coke When they got a blind taste test, like the taste of Pepsi better, they freaked out when Coke wanted to change the recipe, because for them, drinking Coke wasn't, shocker, all that much about taste as it was identity.

[00:10:51] Megan Drapa: Yes, yes. So, this is why I think like the Vitae research is 100 percent if you're talking to Catholics. It is theology of the body. It is why Dr. Kenny, you don't, he doesn't have a hundred people participants. He's not getting incidence rates. He's taking one person at a time in a meditative state. They have to paint you a picture.
If they're telling you with their eyes open, just facts, they're not in the place. It's called, he called it right brain research. They have to paint you the picture of what they were smelling, what they were feeling, what they were seeing when made a certain consumer decision. So, it's universal. It doesn't change with time.
It doesn't change with demographics like our primal drives because we're made by the same creator and our hearts are trying to be fulfilled by the same thing are also deceived by similar things like shame speak so loudly fear and those are the number one drivers in consumerism. He talks about FedEx and how it became a verb like FedEx it because UPS and our postal service.
All have the same product, but FedEx was able to be like, talk to you about, you're not going to be shamed that it didn't make it the other day. They really started. We will save your reputation by getting it on time. 

[00:12:03] Jim Jansen: This is important. I want to make sure this is a good time for us to offer. I don't know if this is a disclaimer or a warning that like, uh, this is what we're going to talk about is actually really going to challenge people here because we're going to take your maybe Right.
Assumptions about what it means to be a faithful Catholic, what it means to stand up for life, how we're supposed to talk about these issues. And for some of you, this is going to flip it on its head. But if I could warn you, it's like one, okay, it's, it's good research. It's effective. But two, I think there's a, there's a restoration in that the church has always taught that a human person is more than just like we're, we're a unity of body and soul.
Right? So, it's our bodies and our souls. But even within our souls, we're not simply rational beings. And that I feel again and again, there's this like, well, the logical thing to do is it's like, yeah, no kidding. But how often do we follow pure logic? Fear, joy, peace, hope, all of our desires and emotions, although they, they can be misled.
We can't be effective in pastoring people, in evangelizing people, in preventing abortion if we are not attending to emotion, fear, identity, all of those kind of deeper things, which is what this research does. 

[00:13:27] Megan Drapa: Amen. Yes. On that note, I'll say, Jim, to segue into the next section, is if you understand the Koch analogy and the Harley Davidson, then that is exactly what Dr.
Kenney was commissioned to do for 20 plus years for Vitae is uncovering, well, then what are the emotional drives for abortion? What are the emotional obstacles to abortion? So, what might you carry to term and what emotional drives are being met when one carries to term? So. The first study was conducted among 18 to 40 year olds, women, just women of reproductive age, and the goal of that, again, Carl at the time was looking at policy, the goal was how do we message this position better in the general public?
What happened was once they were doing these in depth, bringing them back to a place, tell me how you feel about this issue. They were hearing not just what women feel in general, like if they see a billboard, these women were disclosing exactly what they were feeling when they made the decision to abort.
So, we did not set out to, to get that data. But so, then the follow-up study was three different groups. Women who aborted women who carried a term and women who carried a term and adopted. And this is one of the most shocking and hard things often to hear is that abortion was seen as the least of three evils and that word evil and least of three is intentional because these women were.
Saw carrying to term and having to admit the pregnancy in the shame of that as death to self. So, they were almost moralistically arguing that death to self is superior to death to an unknown. And even from a moral standpoint, many of them considered it murder. Many of them. Yeah. They all know it's a baby.
So, so messaging like abortion is murder or abortion takes a life of a baby doesn't resonate because they already knew that. 

[00:15:29] Jim Jansen: They already knew that. And it wasn't, yeah, I remember, I mean, as I was reading just a little bit of the research, it's so shocking. That like, not only did they not, they knew, well yeah, I know it's a baby, and I know it's murder, but they were more likely, the more they knew that, the deeper they believed it is a baby and it's murder, they were actually more likely, weren't they?

[00:15:50] Megan Drapa: Well, 

[00:15:50] Jim Jansen: or somewhere, I mean. 

[00:15:51] Megan Drapa: So those, that's an interesting, it's about identity, so. So, they did not identify as mothers, so messaging about baby or, or the diaper drive, like if pregnancy center, like, we're going to help you through this. We're going to help you with your mothering. That doesn't speak to them because that that's anxiety provoking.
You're like, and it's an affront to who I see myself as or how I'm trying to portray to others. And so, the other piece of the identity Is those who are considered themselves prolife, Christian, right? That's their identity. There was more drive to abort to preserve that identity as someone who didn't have sex outside of marriage or somebody who didn't get pregnant.
So those who felt more conflicted yet convicted about this. We're driven more to protect their identity and, and, and avoid shame through that, whereas women who don't really feel like there's a moral judgment of sexual activity outside of marriage, they, they, you know, nine times 50 to 50, they could carry the term because that they're not trying to protect this identity of somebody who's not sexually active.

[00:16:57] Jim Jansen: Wow. So, so it's like the, this good girl, I want to be known as a good Catholic girl and good Catholic girls don't sleep around. Good Catholic girls don't get pregnant. That, that identity, although mostly a positive thing, would get twisted in this moment of fear when they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant.
And, and it would actually manifest as a shame that increased the likelihood that they would choose abortion to protect that good girl identity. 

[00:17:28] Megan Drapa: And something that was a little bit even shocking to me, we just wrapped up a study that was partially commissioned by the Arlington Diocese in Virginia.
They're, they're known as the pioneers in abortion healing. So how can we reach women? So specifically, this, The study was conducted in Arlington, Chicago, Phoenix, and Dallas, higher concentration areas of culturally Catholics. And it was very difficult to recruit for this study. Number one, something I failed to mention is the research are always looking for the mushy middle.
Like you don't want to die hard on this side, the left or the right. Like what is the mushy middle? Cause that's going to optimize our ability to message and reach. Most women in the abortion healing study on the recruitment form, measuring their feelings of regret. Many of them were like, it's just a clump of cells.
Abortion should be legal at all costs. I never think about the child. Like they looked very hardened. Once they got into the room, they just opened up and clearly, they're struggling with this issue every day, but they're constantly keeping themselves in defense mechanisms to like, not let it. Seep in, they're not cognizantly aware of it.
However, and then many of them were from 30, even 30 years ago, it was hard to recruit women recently. The goal was to recruit Catholics, so these women were not even saying I'm a good girl and I shouldn't have been having sex over and over again. They were not hearing from their father, you have dignity, don't use your body this way.
They were hearing, how could you have gotten pregnant? Literally the words were pregnancy is the sin. It's a sin to get pregnant out of wedlock in my religion. It's taboo over and over again. And we, we knew that from historical research that pregnancy is the sin. It's the other side uses this brilliantly.
Like we're going to protect you from STDs and we're going to with birth control and what have you, but we're going to, you know, protect your current self and your future self because the worst thing that could happen is. You get pregnant. So, these young women are groomed for like where to go right back if the pregnancy happens because the narrative of shame has already seeped in.
But again, we were seeing this from Catholic families even 30 years ago that the narrative was not that you are beautiful. You were made whole. Don't misuse your body. The narrative was like, whatever you do, don't get pregnant. 

[00:19:58] Jim Jansen: Yeah. So, let's just Quick, just some of the, some of the, the consequences, like as a pregnancy center, or maybe someone who's just trying to help, like, I'll help you with parenting classes.
There's going to be free diapers. Like those are things that moms need. And these girls don't yet see themselves as mothers. What are some other, like, again, well meaning, but messages that tend to backfire and be ineffectual? 

[00:20:23] Megan Drapa: Yeah, definitely. I've seen plenty of times along the road, abortion is murder or a picture of a baby.
even pictures of baby are triggering because they know that it is a baby, right? So, so Vitae's research has all led to this needs to be women focused messaging and you need to reach her and who her identity is at the moment. And most likely, unfortunately, many of these women don't know who they are.
their selves are to themselves. It's they're more concerned about what am I portraying to others? Am I a student? Am I at risk of being exposed to school? Is this going to affect my career? What is my significant other going to think about this? And many times, people are also shocked to hear it's, it's the mothers who are driving their daughters to get an abortion.
It's, yeah, it's, it's the dynamic of I'm a daughter. I'm not a mother and my parents are going to freak out about this. My parents don't want this. So. And especially post Roe, this is, this is a theme we did not talk about and I'm just jumping all over here, but again, the shame versus guilt. When shame was louder and they were concerned about how their image was being portrayed to others, they were more likely to abort.
Guilt is, they know who themselves are internally and what they could and could not live with, and many times guilt would lead them to carry to term. But there's this whole other conflict called courage versus guilt. And this is what I think you were touching on earlier is that whenever there's any opposition seen to accessing abortion, whether it's people present outside the abortion clinic or their friends saying messaging things are pro-life ads or now the political landscape, it is seen as courageous to get an abortion, um, because it's so difficult, you know, with heartbeat laws and restrictions.
that they are able to ignore their own guilt. So, guilt and courage can exist in the brain at the same time. So, when there's opposition to abortion or abortion access, it helps these women air quotes, courageously lean into the courage narrative and ignore their guilt. And we're seeing that a lot, um, across the nation with the Dobbs case and the fall of Roe and now the abortion pill.
I mean, perception is reality. Everyone on who's listening to this knows how dangerous I'm sure the abortion pill is, but women perceive it just like taking a Tylenol. I mean, they've been groomed for who knows 50 years that the pill is just something we women have to take to. Contribute to society. Well, this is one other thing that they just have to do.
And it's just like Tylenol. So, the opportunity for pregnancy centers to actually even intercept in message to women after a positive pregnancy test is becoming slimmer and slimmer. So, what the movement really needs to do is engage in relationship. a lot sooner before, before young women are even sexually active to say, I am the resource, the trusted resource to, to women's health and your reproductive needs, or what have you, and walk with them without shame or judgment.
So, our research also says that, that chastity and abstinence education for certain groups, like, sure, do it in the school, do it in the church. But if you are a pregnancy center or a women's health center, they are not going to trust you. Like once they find themselves pregnant and you've been messaging abstinence, they're going to run to the other direction.
So... 

[00:23:57] Jim Jansen: yeah. Say more about that. It's like it's needed. Like please teach people chastity and abstinence, et cetera. But for a pregnancy center who needs to be positioned to Provide an alternative to abortion. They can't provide both of those services. 

[00:24:13] Megan Drapa: Not only that, but to your Catholic medical association providers, if you are seen as you want to be seen as the expert in women's health care, and it's what we need to do.
Like abortion will never become unthinkable. It might become illegal, but it will never become unthinkable until we disrupt where these women are getting groomed to mistrust their bodies. So, so we body literacy, um, through the natural law without philosophical underpinnings of abstinence or chastity, but like, no, I'm here to teach you about your body so you can advocate for yourself and be a partner in your health.
It's completely different. And our medical providers and our practitioners and our pregnancy centers and those who are seen in the more the clinical setting need to be doing that. And even as moms at home, like the other side is so loud. And as we talked about this for evangelization, Most women don't trust their bodies.
They've bought into the narrative that they're somehow subpar and they have to shoulder the burden of having to do something to overcompensate the way their bodies are made. 

[00:25:22] Jim Jansen: Right? So, whether it's the pill or this or just even digits like the way they present themselves, fashion, etcetera. There's something broken and Planned Parenthood comes to the rescue.
We're going to help you fix you. 

[00:25:38] Megan Drapa: And even if it's not Planned Parenthood, it's, it's something else so that the idea as a parent sitting here, well, I'm going to give you this, this book that's written through the lens of theology of the body and. And sex and its intention for marriage through the Catholic Church.
Many times, we, we even as mothers can't lead that way until our daughters understand that their bodies are whole. So, so disarming the defense mechanisms go through the back door of your body is made whole. It is beautiful and, and you can understand your identity and it's through her healing of her identity and self that she can then.
Come to understand that she was created by a loving father and there's order, but you can't put the cart before the horse. You can't be talking about. God's intention for her when she doesn't trust that she was made whole to begin with. 

[00:26:32] Jim Jansen: Because there's so many messages that are telling her that she's broken.
And it's half true, right? There's something about, I mean, there's, there's the fall, our bodies do break, but the brokenness of Roddy's is so loud. And I mean, it's just, yeah, it's just heard that message is so loud. It's fascinating what that does to set up women. I mean, I want to ask you to say a little bit more about the grooming thing.
Cause you've, you've used that language a couple of times that. Way before they walk into Planned Parenthood for an abortion, women have been connecting there as a place, as a safe place for health, just, just their feminine health and well-being. 

[00:27:12] Megan Drapa: Yes, this is, uh, the Saving Grace study, which was done on, uh, The Planned Parenthood healthcare brand conducted by Vitae.
So, it was loyal Planned Parenthood clients. Like what are their emotional needs being met? It is my favorite study. I can talk for hours about it, but I want to back up just one second when you talked about what could the alternative message be for certain entities, the happy girl's guide to being whole written by Teresa Kenny, Sancta Familia.
I was editor on that. It was vetted through Vitae research because, you know, everyone knows Teresa can speak extensively on theology of the body, but she also understands how broken we are. And a lot of young women feel about their bodies. So, she again does it through the back door and sneaks in identity and But doesn't get into theological terms.
So that's a great resource, I think, for young women and... 

[00:28:03] Jim Jansen: Say it again. And we'll cite it at the end here. 

[00:28:05] Megan Drapa: The happy girls guide to being whole. I want to have a disclaimer that it is written mostly gym. The idea was for focus students. Cause we heard from many of my babysitters were focused, uh, participating focus now focus missionaries were saying to me, and we were hearing this all over the country that girls on campus are getting excited, they're coming to Bible study.
But they were told they needed to be on contraception because of a health reason, and now all of a sudden, they are not trusting the church's wisdom on this issue, they think there's a tension between being provided it for a healthcare reason, and it's because they're not really trusting their bodies, and the next thing you know, they're not.
Over and over again. There's sleeping with their boyfriends and they're living with their boyfriends, and it all started with a contraceptive prescription, which gets back to the grooming is like once women kind of subtly think that there's the tension and the evil one creates that confusion and division that you can't.
I mean, that's what he said in the Garden of Eden. Like, did God like, does the church really say you can't take care of your body? That leads us right into the, to the grooming is that many of our women in our Planned Parenthood study considered Planned Parenthood a saving grace. It was, they are the only place that is, you know, non-profit and they're out, they're not always in the nicest part of neighborhoods because they're going where no one else will go.
And it's like a necessary evil that we need to protect women from calamities of their sexual choices and behavior. And I was just reminded today I need to re up my safe environment training. I think it expired this spring. But when you do safe environment training, you are trained to recognize what is a groomer.
A groomer separates you from your known, trusted contact and increases risk taking behavior. That is exactly what Planned Parenthood does. Who, who should I say I am when I call it home? Because it's like subtly shameful that you're actually even here. So, they, they separate you from your parent and they do it in the word secrecy.
They don't use confidentiality and have even in the intake form. Just these private questions that induce shame and fear and then come with, but we're, you know, we're going to give you this. You don't get an STD and you don't do this. We're going to tell you how you can do all these things. So, they'll give them partial knowledge to increase a risk-taking behavior that's inherently dangerous.
And then, uh, That narrative is in the back of their mind. When, when these young women find themselves pregnant, that was like the uncontrolled thing to do. And in fact, when they're coming into Planned Parenthood, it's like, this is so great and responsible for an emancipation from your family to be taking decisions, your health care decisions in your own hands.
Like, this is the responsible thing to do. 

[00:30:55] Jim Jansen: It's portrayed as a mature, responsible decision. 

[00:30:58] Megan Drapa: And up, that wasn't supposed to happen. So, you know where to come back immediately and secrecy. Our researchers pointed out, and it's just one antidote, that like, one woman feels very conflicted. She knows it's a baby.
This is her third abortion in a year after she was put on contraception for acne. 

[00:31:15] Jim Jansen: Wow. The decision to go on for acne seemed innocuous. You know, I mean, it is not the taking of a life and it's portrayed as a medical, uh, if not necessity, just like it's, it's like the only realistic option, but it sets up for, uh, the likelihood that it's going to fail and then the need for abortion.

[00:31:39] Megan Drapa: And this is not my area of research, but I just get so fascinated about it, is like this psychobiology changes of our hormones and brains once you are put on a lot of estrogen. Like that contraception in itself makes young women think differently about themselves in this issue. 

[00:31:59] Jim Jansen: Wow. 

[00:32:00] Megan Drapa: But that, again, is outside the scope of ETA research.
I'm just telling you that. 

[00:32:03] Jim Jansen: Yeah, but it increases a vulnerability there. So let's talk a little bit, like, what are some of the consequences for pregnancy centers, but also for us as individuals as we, as we interact with friends, family, coworkers who are pro-abortion politically, uh, and then, God willing, we, we may have the chance to be in relationship with, with a young woman who's experiencing this tension, this fear, this vulnerability.
What should we say? 

[00:32:30] Megan Drapa: Yeah, that's a great question because I do think many people in this archdiocese and how far wide the podcast reaches is that the approach to this issue really has to change with our current political landscape and the abortion pill. Readily available. So, we do need to lean into our whether our health care providers are pregnancy centers that are trying to take back the narrative on women's health care.
Like you as somebody who supports pro-life entities can't get jammed up. If you hear that your pregnancy center wants to be offering a Gynecological exam for young women who are not even pregnant and be seen as the go to place for women's healthcare and, uh, and charting and body literacy that is not attached to, but you should save this for marriage, right?
Like we have to be nimble and responsive to where good entities are going to meet this need in women upstream before they even enter into a Planned Parenthood. Like, so we have to offer services that are. Better, but seen as competitive and if not the go to resource for young women's sexual health. Like, so, so we as a culture have to be very okay with that.
Also, politically, I just read this, and again, it's not right brained, it's, it's just a survey, but of Republicans. Who were messaged a 15-week band when it was messaged as pro-life, it had maybe 10 percent support versus if the same 15-week band was messaged as pro-choice. Like we want women to have enough time in information to make choice, time, information, and support.
So, we have to be a little bit uncomfortable of. Achieving our same ends with different means and words. 

[00:34:24] Jim Jansen: How did it end up? You're saying if it was described as a give women time to choose, it was received better. 

[00:34:32] Megan Drapa: Like this, if it was saying this is a pro-choice bill because we want women to have the time to make a choice, it was, it was like, I forgot the exact numbers, but it was like 10 to 80 percent support, like a significant amount.
So. It's the same 15-week ban, but we have to be comfortable speaking to the woman and her emotional needs. This is she's acting out of fear. She wants to know that nothing is being taken away from her, even in across the country. The ballot initiatives. As somebody was saying to me here locally, it's like a mom and dad or grandma and grandpa and uncle.
They are super pro-life, but the fear of this option being taken away from their daughters or their nieces is more motivating. So, when they go to the best Ballot, they are repealing bands across the country. So, we have to recognize how you speak about this issue and who foremost you're trying to protect makes a difference.
And we want to protect the woman. Like it was actually Whitney Bradley's brother who said this to me six years ago, when I was presenting the research, he's like, it's like, you are saying we need to love the woman enough so she can choose to love her baby. So. That's what we need to do as a culture is, is lead with protecting women, wanting them to have enough information, informed consent and protections in place so that they can freely choose.

[00:35:55] Jim Jansen: Right. It's an interesting, it's like a message about, I mean, it's so funny. It's like about true freedom and true empowerment and true education. When we go there, what it really means to be a whole free culture. Independent, capable, courageous woman will win on that. But if we, if we neglect that woman and her felt desire to be free and independent and courageous, and we only message about the baby.
we lose her and we lose the baby. 

[00:36:30] Megan Drapa: Yes. Yes. 

[00:36:32] Jim Jansen: But if we message to her again, a message of true freedom, we get both. Yeah. That's huge. You know, we're, I mean, we're talking about, and this is an issue of concern to all of us. I mean, you know, like abortion is, you know, one of like the scourges of our time and our generation.
And, and yet, you know, we tend to spend most of the time in past talking about evangelization. What, what's the connection that you see between this conversation, this type of research and evangelization? 

[00:37:04] Megan Drapa: I love this question. So, as I was telling you offline, I just returned from the USCCB conference on Project Rachel, and I was presenting our findings on how to reach women with abortion healing messaging.

[00:37:17] Jim Jansen: Right. And just for clarity, say Project Rachel is the... 
[00:37:20] Megan Drapa: Yeah, it's a ministry of the church to help heal and accompany women who've had abortions. From our research, you know, we are hearing stories from, again, anecdotally, they were culturally Catholic. They hadn't stepped inside a church in 30 years, but they were, you know, identifying as Catholic, but falling away.
That women who are outside the church, it, it was all of the lies she believed about herself and, and the lies her family believed and The pain of her identity through family systems that actually led to the abortion and many of them felt it was the pregnancy that was shameful that needed to be hidden.
So, when you want to talk to them about abortion healing, they felt they had no choice. So, they're like, that's not even the sin I need to heal from. And I've just kind of recognized, I think, through, through the mentorship program, personal prayer and understanding our bodies and ourselves and identity. I think as a church, we have to stop funneling people off to ministries based on whatever sin that we're identifying them in.
Yeah. Like, like, let's have a, an abortive. No. Women and men like they want to be seen as whole and lovable and unique and we need to reflect back like the sisters of life also are there and they just talk so beautifully about like, you just have to gaze on them as Christ would gaze on them and reflect Christ love so they can start believing truths about their identity.
But that's pervasive. That's not whether you have had an abortion or you're an alcoholic. It's like, if you're a mom of five and you end up screaming at your children all the time, like hypothetically. So, so I, I think that it's all about evangelization because it's all about divine intimacy and being able to be present.
And that's why when offline you ask, like, what is this perfect script we could tell people if they're ever encountering somebody at work or a colleague? Well, you have to be in a relationship, in a position to be able to speak truth into people about shame and their worth. And if you're not in that relationship, It's best to use certain words that will lead them to an entity that can speak that correctly.
But if you're, you know, got sort of these pro-life, maybe Republican stickers and flags all over your cubicle and then, you know, just Sally down the cubicle down that you really don't have a relationship with, but just discloses this. There's, there's no perfect script. It's about authentic relationships so you can reflect Christ's love back to them so that they can know you.
That they're whole and all of these women, when we asked them to vision cast, what the perfect healing place would be, they all spoke about nature and nature is a common theme throughout all our studies. Like it's as if Dr. Kenny has discovered. The primal drives from the fall, fear and shame, and we're all looking to get our identity back and whole.
And so, I would say this is all a vandalization and it's not just limited to abortion, it's people want to know that they've been made whole and that they were created by a loving father and that you are reflecting their dignity back so they can start integrating that more into their identity. And then I think they would be ready for more theological truths.

[00:41:00] Jim Jansen: Okay. So, Megan, I'm just going to be honest. Like, here's what I'm feeling as since we're, since you made it safe to talk about feelings first, I'm like, crap, really? Like, so you can't give me the perfect script. I just have to love people. And in one level, I mean, that's sometimes it's annoying. Cause right.
They're like, if only we could love more freely and fruitfully, but you're right. I mean, that's it. It's like you, you can't, doesn't matter what you say, if they can feel your judgment. And in some ways, it goes the other way, too. I mean, it does matter what you say, but what you say matters less when they can feel your love.

[00:41:34] Megan Drapa: Yes. 

[00:41:34] Jim Jansen: I mean, this is a little bit of a tangent, but I can't tell you how many hall of fame missionaries, and I mean, like, stats, like, people come to a relationship with Jesus because of them. Hall of Fame missionaries are just terribly awkward. And they're like, what? What? This person is like, I mean, they're intelligent, but they're just not articulate at all.
And they're really nerdy. And why do people keep coming to Jesus because of them? It's because they're loving. 

[00:42:03] Megan Drapa: Yes. 

[00:42:03] Jim Jansen: And people can feel it. And ironically, right. And ironically, their awkwardness is disarming. Well, it's disarming, and it helps reveal it. It's like, it's like, why am I attracted to this person? They are certainly not cool.
They love me. They just love me for who I am. But honestly, that's the, that is the heart of the gospel. We've talked about this. Go back to the Jeff Cavins episode. But like the core message of the gospel often begins with You are loved. You were made for love. You've been created good by a creator, and I mean, if I'm taking anything away from our conversation, it's like, uh, that really matters.
And we can't just gloss over that, right? We tend to like, so God loves you and you're made for a relationship. And now let's talk about sin. It's like, no, no, no, no, like, like, really? Like you were made good, and sin is real. But that's what a lot of people struggle to believe. That's the part of the gospel they resist.
No, I'm not good. 

[00:43:04] Megan Drapa: Yes. And I was not, I mean, I, I think in Genesis, it says three times in the same verse, and he made you in the image of likeness three times. It's very Trinitarian. And it's, you were made in the image and likeness of God. So, the Trinitarians part is like, you were made for relationship and out of love you were made, and you were made in a divine image.
Yeah. And that is what most young women in our culture do not know, even if they come from beautifully involved, mass attending families. I can tell you my, my own daughter struggles with this. 


[00:43:43] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, I don't know anybody. I mean, at some level, I don't know anyone who doesn't experience some alienation from their body.
Some struggle to believe that they were made good, uh, by love for love. I mean, it's kind of a universal human condition, which is why it's the universal remedy. Yes. You know, that it's part of the good news. No, you actually were made good by love for love. 

[00:44:10] Megan Drapa: And it's why my little booklet here on Vitae Research does not seem disjointed to your work on evangelization, but it is the same thing.
It's relationship. It's their identity. I will say, I think it's helpful to leave people with some tangible things. You want to combat this lie that She's not worthy and that she cannot do it. So, if you don't have the relationship to lean in and kind of be her admired woman and accompany her into the identity of motherhood, you can tell her, I know you can do this.
I believe in you, and I want you to have, um, get to a place where you have enough. Information, resources, and support so you can freely make a choice. So then get her to a place that's equipped to handle this, like that word equipped, um, either EPS or a Sancta Familia or a Sure Women's. And oftentimes, I'm sure you think this is true too, based on your last story of the Awkward Hall of Famer.
Oftentimes, People who are so distant and remote, like we have no relationship with them can do it better. Like you're not trying to maintain your identity so much. You're like, you, you're not even projecting an identity on me. So go ahead. Just project Christ's gaze. 

[00:45:24] Jim Jansen: Yes. Yeah. I mean, like put another, another way, like you don't have any baggage.
We were like, I don't even know her. I mean, we just, we've only worked together for like three years. Yeah. But, but her siblings and her parents and her grandparents, there's some baggage there. There's lots, hopefully lots of built-up love, but there's probably some wounds too, and your freedom to just. Say like, hey, you're loved, you're cared for, you can do this, you know, take your time, get the information, like, I love that because I mean, all the, all the research shows the longer a woman contemplates, the more likely she is to carry the term.

[00:46:00] Megan Drapa: Yes. 

[00:46:01] Jim Jansen: Time, time is our friend. 

[00:46:02] Megan Drapa: This is what gets me kind of in trouble, but that maybe I'm not so excited about heartbeat laws. Hmm. Yeah. You know, of course a good and just law is good and just and beautiful. Through effectiveness, it's almost like it's Didi Chisholm from Bella Natural Womanhood is like, it's like we should say that they can't get abortions after like 20 weeks because we want them to have enough information.
And it's like, yeah, you can still get one. You, nobody's taking that freedom from you. But you can't until you've built up enough time and relationship with a resource center that you truly feel is going to accompany you and you are free to make a choice untethered by any coercion or falsehoods. 

[00:46:43] Jim Jansen: Yeah.
Megan, thank you. This is all like amazing stuff and it's mind bending. But even if, you know, we were talking about this, All of this is, you know, it's like things are going off in my mind explosion back not only to the experience of seeing some of these fundamental dynamics in play in missionary work, but it's also when we have the eyes to see it.
It's in the scripture. I mean, it is somewhat crazy. We're talking about King David, right? And his adultery sin with Bathsheba He's committed adultery, sin, but he's actually willing to commit murder to hide the sin and the shame of being an adulterer, and it feels safer to be a murderer than to be discovered as an adulterer.

[00:47:31] Megan Drapa: I think that that's for many of these women. I don't know that they'd use the word murder, but, but they, they even not. Not just the abortion healing cohort, but for the past 30 years, all the women, they're like, it's just the deal I had to make. Like, I know, I know it was wrong. 

[00:47:49] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I didn't want to get an abortion, but I had to, to protect who I was, my, my current and my future.
So, I made a forced choice. To protect my future. 

[00:48:00] Megan Drapa: And God will understand. In fact, that's even, even some of these women, it's like, well, God will understand because he knew my situation. It's just the deal I had to make with him. They, these are, they're using these theological words. Yeah, that's the language.
But the church won't understand. Those words were exactly used. Wow. Like, God will understand. I don't think the church will ever forgive me. 

[00:48:18] Jim Jansen: Megan, this is amazing stuff. This is, I mean, again, mind bending, very, I think very hopeful. So, listeners, if you've been just a little bit challenged by this, you're welcome.
Uh, I think this is good for us to think a little bit, to integrate our faith, theology and science and the experience of those who are really on the front lines engaging, uh, with, I mean, really kind of like the tip of the spear of our cultural battle. Megan, thank you. Thank you for what you, thank you for what you do.
How can people get in touch with you or the Vitae foundation, uh, if they want to know more about your work? 

[00:48:55] Megan Drapa: Sure. My email is Megan M E G a N dot drop a D R a P a. At Vitae foundation. org that's V I T A E foundation. org 

[00:49:12] Jim Jansen: And we'll link that.

[00:49:13] Megan Drapa: and you can also check out some of our, our messaging and vetted media that's out there vetted through Vitae research on the Vitae research institute.
org as well. And if you're a pregnancy center, we have materials specifically just for your line of work at the Vitae vault.

[00:49:37] Jim Jansen: Cool. We'll link to all of these, Megan, again, thank you. Those of you who are listening, you know, somebody who needs to hear this, um, so take a moment, let the Lord kind of tap you on the shoulder and show you who that is. And then, uh, yeah, share it out with them. Thanks for listening to everybody. Thanks for listening to the equip cast.
We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip.archomaha.org. God bless and see you next time.