[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Quip Cast. So today I sit down with any Hickman of the Delray Collective. The Delray Collective is a cool organization, really dedicated to just equipping people to be ordinary missionary disciples, uh, to their friends and their neighbors. Their tagline, like, love God, love your neighbor, gather on a porch.

Ennie and I talk about neighboring. We talk about just ordinary evangelization, how to not write over complicated, but just simply let God's love and joy flow through you to really play the long game, to bringing friends and neighbors and fallen away folks, uh, back in touch with the Lord. You're gonna love today's conversation.

We go all over the place. We talk a little bit about even blessed Stanley Rother. It's a great conversation. You're gonna love it. Take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission.

Let's go.

Ennie Hickman, welcome to the Equip Cast. How you doing today? 

[00:01:16] Ennie Hickman: Doing pretty good. Excited to be here. 

[00:01:19] Jim Jansen: So, this is fun. We didn't talk about this. You're in Texas, right? That's right. Did I tell you my wife's from Texas? She's a, she's a, all the ancestors are from San Antonio. She went to high school. Great school in Austin, high school and Grapevine. Wow. So, we got a lot of, lot of Texas connections. 

[00:01:36] Ennie Hickman: You chose a winner. I did. I did. It's a big state, but every, every single person here is just, uh, she's fabulous. 

[00:01:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And I converted her too. I mean, she was raised Catholic, but she's a Husker. 

[00:01:47] Ennie Hickman: Oh. So. 

[00:01:48] Jim Jansen: Well, it's, she, she loves being from Nebraska. 

[00:01:50] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. No, no beef there.

That's, that's great. It's, uh, great, great people there too. 

[00:01:55] Jim Jansen: She's still a, still a Rangers fan. Mm, right. She's still like ranger rangers baseball. So. 

[00:01:59] Ennie Hickman: Well, that's another conversation we'll have. We got, I know, I'm from Houston and uh, Dallas is like another state. Yeah. But why fight now? Why fight now? Yeah.

Love your neighbor. 

[00:02:08] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Okay. So. Ennie, give us a little bit. We always, I always love to start giving people a chance, tell a little bit of, of their faith story. I'd love to hear a little bit of, of just, you know, your, your first kind of connection to the Lord, but then also how you stepped in into mission.

[00:02:26] Ennie Hickman: Yeah, that's a great question. I never really strayed far, but there were little episodes. I was always a cool kid. I grew up a block and a. From the adoration chapel, from my, from my church. Wow. Where I, where I went to grade school, kindergarten through eighth grade. The church was the place I'd wake up on Saturday morning, grab my baseball glove and run down to the, you know, this is before fences, right?

Like before they started fencing in school, school playgrounds and stuff. So, I lived there and so I was a church kid. Um, my mom, she typed the pastor's letter to put in the bulletin. And so, I, I would hang out as a young kid just in the rectory. There were always priests in my house, you know, since we were a block and a half away, my mom, you know, kept steaks, uh, in the refrigerator and scotch, uh, you know, nice in the bar.

And, you know, we were always hosting not only priests, but just people in general. My, my, both my folks are from Louisiana, and so it's just in our blood to, you know, yeah. To, to host. And so, yeah. So, Jesus and the church was always part of our family. And so, you know, it was breakups with girlfriends and I, you know, in middle school or high school and I'd ride my bike down to the adoration chapel, you know, and sitting there and cry or whatever.

But I knew, always knew that was, um, you know, that was a safe haven. And of course, you know, you, I look back on my rebellion time, you know, mainly in high school, in the beginning of college, you know, and I think, God, it was so short it wasn't even that big of a deal. Mm-hmm. You know, but looking back now, but, but yeah, there was a moment where I did make a decision for Christ after kind of, you know, trying out the world.

And there was a year maybe where I went to church, you know, maybe a handful of times. And so drifted, but just really I was. I never lost my relationship with the Lord. Just kinda lost me. Just mm-hmm. Kind of fell apart. This was in Austin, by the way. Yeah. Speaking, speaking of Austin. 

[00:04:28] Jim Jansen: Oh, that's a cool way to put it though. Yeah. I love, I love that it's like, I didn't lose my relationship with the Lord. I just lost me. 

[00:04:33] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. 

[00:04:34] Jim Jansen: Like, say more about that. 

[00:04:35] Ennie Hickman: Part of this was a, a mentor that I had met in high school, Paul George, I don't know Mo most people are, yeah, yeah. Familiar with the man, the myth, the legend, two first names. You know, I tr I trusted him even though he had two first names, which is fine.

You know, he was like four years older than me and just, it was that accountability that I needed. And I think he would just sort of always remind me, like, you know, who do you like, who do you wanna be? Which one? You know, like, you're doing this and you're doing that, and, and just when are you, you know, when are you gonna make that call?

And so, I think that's what I mean by it. I. Yeah, it was almost like I was shutting my ears and just kind of going, this is fine. I'll find, I'll find a middle ground where I'm not super religious or super, you know, but also I can, you know, I can, uh, I can be in and out and still sort of use the language of the faith.

But yeah, that was around, yeah, 19, 19 years old. And even in my high school year, like when I was, you know, I, I got to go to World Youth Day in 1993, um, when I was in high school in Denver. And so, they were all Me too. Yeah, I didn't see it. I didn't see it that, yeah. No, but I don't remember you at all. That was transformative.

I mean, you know, just, yeah, we were, we were positioned so well, we were almost as close as you could be, you know, right behind the nuns, you know, it was like, mm-hmm. That's pretty close. 

[00:05:58] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. 

[00:05:59] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. Just balling my eyes out, just going, yeah, man, wow. What is going on? So, I, I really, I really look to that as kind of my baptism in the spirit when it was like, when it was real.

I feel like a commitment to, you know, letting the Lord rule my life. But I was, uh, but I still played around a bit. Yeah. So, I found that when I did sort of turn, I was gonna turn boy, like really turn. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, I was always a flair. I had a flare for the dramatic, I was in the film school at University of Texas.

I loved Francis of Assisi, and he, you know, he was such a drama queen. Like every, oh yeah. Every, every step of the way. He had to make it a huge deal to, you know, to show his piety and it was all real. Mine was not. I just, yeah. Went all in. Thought the Franciscan life is for me and discerned my vocation with the OMS for a little while at Franciscan University in Steubenville.

I was given the. Mandate to go date at a certain point, I had, like, I had, I had crossed a threshold and the, and my spiritual director's like, you need to go date, go on some dates with some girls. And I was kind of mad, kind of like, why, what? I wanna be a priest. And 

[00:07:11] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. Well, yeah. What did he see?

[00:07:13] Ennie Hickman: What did he see? I don't know. I mean, I, I was re like I said, I was kind of like just being dramatic. I loved the idea mm-hmm. Of wearing a habit. You know, I love the idea of like, you know, a life of penitent. You know, I, I think I was very scrupulous and I, you know, I was, I was hyper zealous and I, I still am.

Like, I literally, I talk to people sometimes to tell 'em all the things you're up to and they're like, you should really aim lower man. I think you'd be happier. But, but anyway, so we, yeah, I love it. I just, I just wanted to go all in. Um, it's just kind of how it was built. I wanted to go all in and so I think he saw that I was maybe taking the easier route at the all in and, and thank God, you know, because I look back.

Now. And definitely I feel like I wake up some mornings and I'm like, man, I'd love to be a priest. That would be, yeah. It's like 5, 5 30 in the morning and I got four kids laying on top of me. You know, my wife hasn't slept all night. And it's like, I gotta get up and do it all over again. I'm like, gosh, that's celibate life.

[00:08:13] Jim Jansen: Uh, yeah. I mean, like, I, I know what you're talking about, like, and I don't wanna offend anybody, but there is something, right? For those of us who are called to it, there is something sanctifyingly inescapable Yeah. About, about the sanctifying effects of family life. Absolutely. That, like that if I had, if I could have escaped, I would've used celibacy and I would've used it as an escape.

[00:08:41] Ennie Hickman: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:08:43] Jim Jansen: You know, and not my call, so, yeah, exactly. Wow, man. 

[00:08:46] Ennie Hickman: So then, so then I went, yeah. So, the dec second date, I, I went on. I took, yeah, my friend who we studied together, we, she's discerning religious life, and we had a couple upper-level theology classes together, and she would always bring me candy at, at night class.

And just, we were buddies. And so, I, you know, let's go out. She had written me sweet notes of, I'm praying for the intercession of all these smart saints, and I just, I, I love, she was awesome. She, I loved her. And we, we didn't, I didn't even try, man. I, I took her to Hardee's, if you know what Hardee's, it's like a Carl’s Jr.

Oh yeah, totally. And I'm sitting across with our milkshake and I'm like, I. Oh my man, I like you. This could be cool. You know? And so, uh, so that's where I met my wife. And immediately we knew that we, you know, both of us had been discerning this Franciscan lifestyle and just committing ourselves to missions and poverty and intentional, you know, incarnation ministry and these types of things that led us to youth ministry.

And, but, but always like, I'd much rather hang with the kids in the back who are vaping than the kids who are sitting up front and know all the hand motions. And that's like, that's me. That's not for everybody, but that's the itch I wanted to scratch. The, the, the idea of Christ coming into the messed up for the most messed up for the most, you know, for the furthest away.

And those in the margins and those that get left out and forgotten, or that the church just gives the stink eye too. You know, even, even, even if I'm not saying like, doctor, that's not doctrine. It's just like the people in the church, the, you know, the folks that Yeah. You know, couldn't understand why a kid was rolling in on a skateboard with a backwards hat into church.

Well, he'd never been to church, you know? And so, these were the, these were the types of things that. 

[00:10:42] Jim Jansen: He, he doesn't know the unwritten rules. 

[00:10:44] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There's no, yeah, right. They're not on the door. It doesn't say you can't wear a hat, but, but of course, you know, the, the glares and stuff.

And then, you know, and I just remember, you know, serving in, um, youth ministry. I was in Arizona, and I had been working with these kids who were just. It's just rough. It's ragamuffins. Never, you know, we we're not even coming to the cool stuff at church yet. I only mm-hmm. I was only able to get into school.

I was only able to take 'em to pizza after school, and I, oh, I did get them to play to form a softball team. And so, we're, we're with these kids and I invited the priest to come for the first time of the pizza. And he, um, invited them to the, we're doing like an adoration night after that. He's like, oh, are you guys coming to the adoration night?

And they were like, what's that? Like, I have no idea what that is. And he was like, what? I don't, I don't understand, like, you know, I said, okay. And I said, maybe later, maybe I'll invite 'em later. I'll talk to you guys about that. That's a cool thing. You know, if that's, um, if we want to do that sometime. And they kind of looked at me funny, like, I have no idea what's going on.

And then I, you know, so the next pastoral council or the next meeting, the next staff meeting I got like publicly, you know, like the question was why are we spending. Church dollars on buying pizza for kids that don't even come to church. And I just saw an enormous gap in the way we minister to young people.

At that point. It was young people. It's an enormous gap of the way we minister to young people and the actual teachings of Christ, you know, and the way that Christ mm-hmm. You know, sort of taught us. And that was one big shift of, ooh, you know, okay. And I wasn't mad at anybody. I'm still not mad at anybody.

I'm, I, I love youth ministry and church ministry and conference ministry and all those there. It's, that's totally needed. And I want that to, to continue to thrive so that when we bring people in the doors, they have a relevant, impactful experience. But we're just missing a whole sort of. A whole sector, a whole section of, uh, of folks if we're not buying them pizza or whatever, you know, whatever that is.

[00:12:58] Jim Jansen: Ennie, how would you answer that now? You know, like if you had a time machine? Not, that's, not that, it's about answering like that specific question for that specific, you know, parish. But like, how do you answer that question? Because I think whether it comes in that specific form, whether it's about pizza or something else, I think that's the question under the surface.

[00:13:22] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. 

[00:13:22] Jim Jansen: For a lot of folks in church world. 

[00:13:26] Ennie Hickman: It's a very unique tension I think that we will always deal with, in our unique position in the US it's buying pizza, of course, other cultures, you know, there's, there's other ways, right? That you sort of interact with folks that are. On the edges. And I, you know, I think I knew not to question the priest.

I mean, I was just, all I was raised that way. I was not gonna, like, I was not gonna qu, you know, so it, it, so at the time, you're right. I mean, I really didn't, I just kind of walked away from that life. I knew where that was ending. But I think, I think now, and actually I, I, the dear pre, I mean, he is a dear friend of mine.

I think that, um, now I might be able to sort of explain it in this way, but I just, I think that we have a, like we, we chronically overcomplicate the gospel and we chronically overcomplicate this idea of loving. And look, I, I'm not. I'm not discounting all the great things that are complicated. I mean, uh, con conferences are extremely complicated.

I, I'm, I'm more or less, you know, talking about this idea that Christ did give us certain commands and, and then a certain way of living. 

[00:14:43] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:44] Ennie Hickman: Um, where he said, come follow me. And I think, I think the difficulty is oftentimes that we just have weird, we have a weird relationship with that command. We have a real weird relationship with the commands in general.

We, I do, I, I do this all the time. I like to, like to theologize it. I like to think, you know, overthink it and make a, you know, an enormous spreadsheet with a plan to, to actually love my neighbor or find the reach the loss. Go, go, go to the hungry and the thirsty. We're just going through Matthew 25 with my students and, you know, I'm like, man, this is clear.

Visit the imprisoned. That's Jesus. You know? Yeah. Mother Teresa was so. Keen to that relationship with the poor and, you know, so, so she's an enormous inspiration. But yeah, I, I think that's it. I think it's like we're, we're not pulling people out of, uh, the gutters. We don't live among lepers, you know, so I can't go and like hug a leper, but we honor saints who did, and we honor, you know, Jesus who healed and to, and went to the lost, but we very rarely emulate them because we don't see the same type of people.

But it's the kid in the back who's vaping. That's, that's it. That, that's, that's the one that I can come into contact with. And if I'm called to, to share the gospel and make Jesus famous, I gotta go. I gotta go do what he did and I gotta go there. So, yeah. So that, that's sort of, that's the real foundational, like how, how this all got started for me.

And, um, you know, of course through the years that's been the principle. I mean, just that's, that's sort of in every, in every place. You know, looking for those that are sort of left out or those that the church isn't really thinking about on a daily basis when they think about who they're serving or who they're ministering to.

You know, there's a lot of great apostolate out there, but, but I'm just an everyday guy. We do, how do you do this as an everyday guy? Right. I don't have a youth room anymore to, to bring, you know, to bring kids to, right. What is it now? Right. 

[00:16:49] Jim Jansen: Or or the Yeah, organizational pizza budget. 

[00:16:51] Ennie Hickman: Yeah, exactly. Like the budget.

That, that would be cool if I just had a budget right now for, for that. Yeah. 

[00:16:57] Jim Jansen: For pizza. Any, I wanna like, let's go there because I feel like, again, I love your stuff. It makes me a little uncomfortable because Right. You, you said that like, you know, like, oh man, overcomplicating the, the gospel and kind of theologizing a away the commandments, the, the call to just love your neighbor is really compelling.

Talk about like, how do you do this? How do you get the eyes to see your neighbor as your neighbor? Yeah. The kid in the back as, oh, oh, that's my leper. Right. That's, that's the one. Like how do you, how does that happen? Mm-hmm. Because you're doing it and you're helping other people. Mm-hmm. Get those eyes.

[00:17:45] Ennie Hickman: That's a great question. Again, I think like the faith to see, right? So, bringing the body and really be, being, being conscious of that in every, in every situation. I think that's one of it. It's just sort of the practice, right? Like, nobody likes brushing their teeth when they're, you know, when they're seven, but you get in the practice of it and you're like, it's not that big of a deal.

Like let's just, let's continue to do that. Obviously the spirit of God, I. One of its works is illumination. You know? And I love that. I always, I pray for, I pray for illumination, right? And so, pray in the Holy Spirit beginning of the day. Do your work of illumination. Let me see myself. Let me see you as you are.

Let me see my neighbors as my neighbors to love. Uh, so I think there's, there's prayer there, but this is kind of a hack. Uh, if you're, you know, you're Gen X, you know, you know, up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, ba ba, select start. I don't know if anybody out there recognizes that. That's, uh, my gosh, that's contra.

Um, that could contra. Yeah, I think that Got you. 30 30 lives. 30 lives. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah, I think so. 30 lives. Yeah. So, this is the 30 life, uh, you know, and I'm always looking for these things. One of the things that we've sort of, we, my wife and I talk about often is beginning with genuine curiosity.

And I think that's like, there is a. I like stories. I think everybody likes stories, whether they know they like stories or they don't. Everybody likes a good story. Everybody wants to know the story, especially when they're unique and they're different than our own. Right? And this comes from a different perspective.

And so, so one of the ways that we do this is we just, we just want to know more about the people. And so, asking, asking God is like, God, just put, put a curiosity in me that makes me want to know more about that person than just what I see. You know? And it's not even asking like, I wonder why they're like that, or Why did they get a face tattoo?

Or, you know, it's like, it's not that. It's like, you know, it's where, where were you born? Where did you come from? You know, what's what, what do you do? You know, where, where do you live? What are your aspirations? What, you know, what makes you get up in the morning? I mean, these are the things that when you, when you begin to hear.

Everybody has a story. Yeah. Everybody has a story. You have a story, you have, you know, and my, my most intimate story is with those that are, that I trust. And, and when, when we get to a place of trust with people, when we're genuinely curious, we're not using, we're not, they're not projects of ours or numbers, which is the worst.

Mm-hmm. You know, qu quantifying our ministries by numbers is like, it's just, it's like quantifying our value by dollars. I mean, it's the same thing. You, you, you can't, you, you can't quantify that, right? It's like we, yeah, we preach that a lot. We say, you're not what you make or you're not what your career is, et cetera.

But then when it comes to ministry, we always, you know, talk about numbers as the most important thing. It's the value of our relationships, even if there are a few, those trusting relationships is where people begin to be vulnerable. And when people begin to be vulnerable, they're opening themselves up.

To God, they're opening themselves up to mm-hmm. To all of these things. And so genuine curiosity is kind of the hack. I wanna know, I wanna know more, I wanna know more about these folks' story. And regardless if, if they're on the street or next door, or the Uber driver, we as the church, we get this cool opportunity to, yeah, love Jesus in a unique way.

Follow Jesus in a unique way. That sounds like it's easy. It's not at all. But again, it's sim, right? It's the simplicity of it. It's going back to that idea. It's like we don't have to overcomplicate that. One thing I tell my kids often is like, is it easier to pick and choose who to love or just to love everybody, you know?

And it's like, it's a no brainer, like. Don't pick and choose because it's hard. It's honestly, it's harder to remember. 

[00:21:58] Jim Jansen: Who, wait, are you on my list again? 

[00:22:01] Ennie Hickman: Exactly. Am I supposed to love you or am I supposed to hate you? Am I on your team or are you on my team? Oh my gosh. Just go ahead and just love 'em all, you know, get, be, be kind to everybody.

It's easier to remember that way. And so, again, back to Arizona, we, we had this opportunity to like just, you know, a stone’s throw away was a, uh, was a, was the Pima Maricopa, um, Indian Reservation. And the more you learn about a community like that, the more you're, the more you wanna see justice, the more you wanna see equity, the more you wanna see, you know, lives changed, or you know mm-hmm.

Health or you, you begin to learn what they need. And, you know, for us, we started there on the, on the res, and then I. We moved to international, and we were doing, you know, we were learning about people and nations, and it got to the point where my daughter, I can't remember how old she was, she was like, she pointed to, we were driving by the airport.

She pointed to the airport. She's like, that's daddy's work. And I was like, oh my gosh. So, it, it, it really came back for us as you know, this, this idea of loving neighbors, loving people in your proximity was going to be not only the command, but sort of the genius of Jesus. Like, he's like, don't go, you don't have to get on a plane to find the people that I want you to love.

Love these folks right around you. You know, and those stories seem a little less unique. A little less like cool, you know, when you're, when you're over in Uganda and you have a t-shirt on a bright, you know, I'm a missionary, you know, you're learning like all these, my t-shirt says, so yeah, exactly. You, you, it's glamorous.

It's cool, you know, you can take pictures of giraffes and, you know, and then you learn these really rough stories and you know, you're impacted by that. And so, to, to the idea of like meeting, you know, Janet next door is like, well, that just seems so boring and 

[00:24:04] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm. 

[00:24:05] Ennie Hickman: It's not glamorous. And you know, what will I learn?

What, what in the world, what's her story? Those stories are crazy too. They're crazy too. Oh, oh, totally. They've got, there's just all sorts of things I've, I've learned, uh, you know, over the past 15 years from, you know, just people you pass every day who have, do, do you have any example? Just incredible stories. 

[00:24:28] Jim Jansen: I feel like. Oh yeah. I feel like there's like some of this, like these divine surprises Oh, yeah. That are like on the tip of your tongue. 

[00:24:34] Ennie Hickman: Well, I'll tell you a story that, that probably would serve a couple of purposes. And this is, uh, this is my next-door neighbor and uh, when we moved in, we moved into a home that had been like, abandoned for probably three years.

And so, it was really overgrown. Everything was overgrown and there were quote unquote trees, you know, everywhere. Mm-hmm. But they were just junk trees or weeds that have turned into trees and. Um, and so we did a lot of outside, outside work and interior work, but, but the outside work was, was really tragic for my next-door neighbor.

It's a larger lot, and she was just mourning. Every time I cut something down, she was yelling at me, ah, why are you doing this? You know, please not another tree. And, um, I love trees as much as I, and I kept a whole bunch, but, but none of, you know, none of the, the ones that were just, you know, grown out weeds.

It was tough for her. You know, I walked over there one day, she was sitting on her driveway. I walked over there one day, and I just brought my chair and I just, and she, and she literally said, oh, no. And I sat down next to her, and I was just like, I'm, I'm just hanging. She had a beer, I got a, I brought a beverage, and it was like, we, we became, I wasn't her worst enemy, right?

Yeah. And so, we started there, and then there was another house that had gone, you know, that people had moved out. They were doing a, a sale or something. And so, the, our treat street was totally packed. 

[00:25:54] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:55] Ennie Hickman: Oh, I know what it was. They, it was after a big freeze, and so it was, there were, there were worker trucks and all sorts of things, and I wasn't able to get into my driveway.

So, I, like any good Texan in a truck, you, you jump the, you have to jump the curb sometimes and why even own a truck if you're not gonna jump the curb occasionally? Right. When you Exactly. When you can and you need to. And so, I drove over. It might've been like, it was just two tires went over, like maybe a stretch of like six feet of grass.

Didn't cause a rut, but just you could see my tire tracks. Okay. Wasn't a rut, but yeah, I, I mashed down the grass. I get outta my car and she just goes ballistic on me, just like, and I've repeated the story, and she knows, like we've, we've all, so in case you think I'm just gossiping about my neighbor, but she just goes ballistic and goes, why did you do that?

Oh my God, you couldn't have waited, blah, blah, blah. I was like, oh my God, Susan. I walked over there and I'm so sorry. I'm so like, I'm so sorry. I get it. And uh, she just threw up her hands, walked inside, and later on that day I was outside and she's leaning on her like front gate, you know, kind of suing.

And she, she pipes up and she goes, are we okay? Mm-hmm. And I said, yeah, we're okay. And I walked over to her, and she said, I'm sorry I lost my temper. I lost a lot in the freeze. And I thought she meant. Her plants. Mm-hmm. I just assumed like she has all kinds of plants. She loves plants. Like she berates me for killing plants and driving over grass.

I thought she meant her plants. 

[00:27:45] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:27:46] Ennie Hickman: And it wasn't until about a year later and we're sitting around the fire and she's over at my house every Wednesday now. I mean, like this is, you know, she's one of our closest friends. And like that she, she told us that her fiancé had died in the freeze. Her fiancé had died in the freeze.

Hmm. And, and it wasn't like, it just had, she said that in the moment we would've, I mean, showered her with, you know, sympathy and, you know, and the whole thing. And I think she didn't want to go into that right. At the time. But I think about all the neighbors in all the neighborhoods where that could have caused a.

Just forever damage. Like forever damage. Oh yeah. You don't, you don't, you yell at me for that. I'm gonna yell at you because your fence is stupid, and your tree and your car's parked up. Yeah. And just, you could go on and on and on like that forever. And the majority of us Christians included, we talk about him like that.

We do. Mm-hmm. We say, oh man, you know, this guy, he's just insane. Or his music or his dog, or his motor motorcycle or his, you know, we have all these, we have all these, uh, reasons to, you know, sort of not learn their story. And that's a more of a sad story, but it just, I guess it represents for me, I. This idea of like, keep, keep going, keep asking, keep, keep walking over.

Right. Keep the relationship. Well, that's our, that's our call. I mean, that's our, that's, that's what it means to love a neighbor is, you know, Jesus knew our neighbors were gonna be annoying. Jesus knew that our neighbors were gonna be anointed us. Yeah, yeah. Jesus knows what neighbors are. He's not, he doesn't say neighbor and mean, you know, I mean he does.

He neighbors everybody. Yes, of course he told a good, good Samaritan story. But when it's like, Jesus, what's the most important thing to do? What's the most important commandments? Like, he's like, love God with everything you have, and then your neighbor as yourself. He knew what a neighbor was, you know?

Yeah. Like, you know, he knew. He knew what everybody listening, he knew what a neighbor was. They probably did the same thing that you and I do when we feel that uncomfortable, oh, I gotta go love them because Yeah, that they knew, oh, literally, oh man, I can't stand that guy. Or that guy is so hard to deal with. 

[00:30:07] Jim Jansen: And I have to confess, like, I have So metaphor, a lot like turned, turned neighbor into a metaphor.

[00:30:13] Ennie Hickman: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:13] Jim Jansen: Um, I dunno how to turn that into a verb, but whatever. Right. I've, I've turned a neighbor into such a metaphor. Yeah. That like I, for the longest time, I didn't even think about the person next door. 

[00:30:24] Ennie Hickman: Mm. Yeah. 

[00:30:24] Jim Jansen: Love thy neighbor and I'm not even thinking about that. And then when you start to think about, it's like, oh man, yeah, that's hard.

I should probably like say hi to them, or I should probably maybe step outside on my front porch now and then, I mean, it's just like for many of us, there's this. Practical may not be the right adjective, but there's just like, uh, well, I never see 'em. It's hard to love them. 'cause I just never talk. We're like hiding inside.

Probably an advantage being in Texas, you have a couple more months where you can be outside. Yeah. But I, I feel like for many of us, it's just this epiphany, like, oh, crud, maybe neighbor is a literal thing. And not just a metaphor. 

[00:31:07] Ennie Hickman: I was right there. I mean, we were right there again, we were traveling, we were doing the thing, and the son of mine is, you know, asked to meet our neighbors.

And that was like, that was a innocent, you know, you know, is an innocent deal. But I reacted in a, in a very strange way at that point. I mean, this is right. Mm-hmm. You know, this is before we, you know, we, we moved back to Houston. It was like, why? Like why do I gotta go meet my neighbors? Even in, you know, being a Jesus person and, you know, traveling to do ministry and missions and, you know, it, it still didn't occur to me that the neighbor that Jesus was talking about was actually my neighbor.

And it makes sense, right? I I get it. I had a great teacher, ed Franciscan, uh, she taught Catechetics sister Johanna Peru, and if you ever come across her, she is just, she's the baller. 

[00:32:01] Jim Jansen: Total Legend. Yeah. 

[00:32:03] Ennie Hickman: She's the goat. She's the goat catechist. My wife was one of her star students. Uh, I was not. 

[00:32:09] Jim Jansen: Just marry into it, that's all you need.

[00:32:11] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. It was always the spirituality of the catechist, right? It was always about, mm-hmm. Look, you can give information to people. You can, you can teach a class. You can be brilliant at teaching a class. You know, and it, it, it, you know, it sounds a lot like clinging gong. Mm-hmm. But unless we have love Right.

Or just a clinging gong. So, the idea of the spirituality of the, of the catechists or the evangelists or, or, or, or the, the spouses. The degree that we are connected to the Lord is the degree, is, is the measurement by which we're gonna be effective in our, in raising our kids. Yeah. The degree that we are loving our spouse and loving our kids and being, you know, being totally attentive to our sacramental life is, is the measurement about how we're gonna be, how effective we're gonna be in, in our neighborhood, and so on and so forth.

And, and I, it always sort of stuck with me that it's like it starts from center and then if you think about that as a physical thing. Makes total sense. These are, these are actually the people I have more access to. These are the people actually who have more access to me. 

[00:33:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I don't have to get on a plane, I just have to step out my door.

[00:33:23] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. And be out there. And, uh, you know, that's kind of a, that's kind of getting into a practical thing, but it's these tensions of like, I could come home from work, and I could like justifiably rationalize, just zoning out and scrolling for 15 minutes. I could do that and I, I'd be like, it is fine. I am gonna be okay.

I am not addicted, you know, or whatever. Like, I could, I could do that and, and, and that's fine. Or I could go out into the front yard and sit on my front bench that we have positioned to be, to, to be that place of, Hey, I'm out here. You should come out too. Uh, there's, there's these like super practical things that we can just begin to train ourselves to do, to, to have more access.

Because yeah, you're right. If you're inside or you're in the backyard. Your chances are chances of meeting your neighbors is, is slim or chances of interacting with your neighbors are slim. But if you make yourself available, you know, that becomes something that happens more regularly. 

[00:34:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Ennie, let's go there.

I mean, let's, because I think it's, it's easy to like, okay, fine, fine, I'm sold, but I actually if like, forgotten what to do. So, like, let's talk about food and porches and benches. Like how do we make this practical? 

[00:34:35] Ennie Hickman: Well, I, I first have to plug a friend, Dave Runyon, I have to plug Yes. Uh, the Art of Neighboring 

[00:34:40] Jim Jansen: quick Cast, cast, uh, alumnus.

We, yeah, he's been on. 

[00:34:43] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. So, you know, this guy I really quick after we sort of, I would say, you know, our, our, our other conversion, you know, back to saying like, oh, okay, actually it's neighbor and starting the collective. We, we met each other, and I read the book, and it is, it's exactly, I. You know, he's just, he's, he's a brother in that same spirit.

So, but he, it's very practical. He does a great job and it's kind of, it's timeless. Like it was written, not Yes. You know, not yesterday, and it's still all remains. And that's the beautiful thing about neighborhoods. Um, we're still, we're still the same. You still have, uh, you know, same thing. The front yard, I will talk about the front yard.

Um, the front yard is, was, you know, pre, pre-World War ii, pre suburban, you know, the front yard, the front stoop, the place where you could retain your uniqueness and identity, and this is definitely yours. Um, they used to have fences, right? Uh, the fences in the front yard. And maybe some neighborhoods, maybe some people listening are like, I still do have a fence.

Mm-hmm. That's incredible. So, because, because of that fence you stored, you sort of had your own safety. You could play there, but you were in contact, you visibly and you know, you could see, okay, these are my neighbors. You would, you know, you'd talk about the day, whatever it might be. So. This move to the backyard, uh, in, in our neighborhoods now has, has sort of, it's a very practical way that, uh, that's sort of taken us out of that.

So that's, that's the one thing I'd say, the front porch, the front yard, go ahead and create us, you know, a sitting area out there. Mm-hmm. And this isn't to say, like when somebody walks by, you're like, Hey, come sit on my porch with me. Like, that is not the way to do it. Right? Like Jesus, like Jesus, you go to them.

So, what you're doing is you're sitting outside, you're making yourself available, and then you're not afraid to walk across the street when you see your neighbor or you're not afraid to get up. When you see a neighbor walking a dog down the street, you're not afraid to get up and wait for them to come and then introduce yourself.

Right. They see you often enough. They get in a, they get in a pattern, they'll stop. They think you're interesting, you think they're interesting, et cetera, et cetera. Friendships are built. So, one, you know, the first practical I would say is, is definitely make yourself available in the front yard. 

[00:37:04] Jim Jansen: Front yard. Yeah. And go say hi. 

[00:37:06] Ennie Hickman: Go say Hi. Get up, get up. Go, go say hi. Right? Uh, you have these situations where even, you know, I, I mentioned the neighbor that's walking the dog. They'll see you in the front yard, and because they are built with the same stuff that we were built with in the eighties and nineties, stranger danger.

[00:37:23] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:24] Ennie Hickman: Uh, I really don't want to get into it, or I wanna stay to my podcast or whatever. They'll, they'll see you sitting out there and they'll turn around, you know, like, I don't wanna keep going that way. I'll turn around. Okay. That's gonna happen. Do proceed. Yes. Get up, say hello. And then after I would say three, four, five, I call 'em touches.

It's, you're not, don't touch 'em. But you know what I mean, as far as like, as far as, yeah. Connection point. Yeah, connection. You've connected, you know their name. Um, another practical thing, just, you know, try hard to remember your name. If you don't remember their name, don't try the buddy or the buckaroo thing.

Definitely ask them their name again. And then after the four, yeah. Four or five times of connection. It's simple invitation. And this, this requires a consistency for your open porch is what we call 'em. Open porches. It requires a consistency to say. Hey, you know, you guys are great. We, we hang out. The neighborhood hangs out here on Wednesday night and mm-hmm.

We'd love to have you over. We, we eat around six and it's a potluck, but also don't, you know, we don't care if you don't have anything to bring, like still just come over. So having a really low impact, soft, you know, landing of a situation like a potluck in the front yard even you're able to, I, if it's nice, the front porch, the front yard is a great place to start at least.

So maybe. 

[00:38:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:38:58] Ennie Hickman: You know, it's a place where neighbors feel comfortable at this moment. I mean, we've had situations where like for months, neighbors will only come to the front yard and then we say, all right, we're gonna go in and, and eat. They go, okay, we'll see you guys later. And that's totally cool too.

[00:39:11] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:12] Ennie Hickman: The idea of a third place, um, which I think Dave talks about. In his book. But I, but I, I love the idea, this idea of the third place, not work, not school, not work, not home, not it's this in-between spot. 

[00:39:26] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:26] Ennie Hickman: Where there's no beginning time or end time. And so, creating a space where they feel like they can come and go, they don't feel like you're judging them 'cause they're not coming in or they're, you know, or they're staying too late.

Right. There's no on time, there's no too late. It's just, yeah. There's no, you just, you're here and it's very, very natural. And so having that consistent thing to invite them to, this is where we've started, um, the Open Porch Network, and you can learn more about that on our website, but the idea is it's a consistent day of the week.

[00:39:56] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:57] Ennie Hickman: You're like a, you're just the party house, you're the place, you know, Thursdays, Fridays, Sundays, whatever it is, you host the most natural, easygoing gatherings of your neighbors, no agenda. And you're feeding with good food. Beauty. Beauty. My wife is great at this. I mean, she's just, uh, she leads with beauty always.

I'm like, why do we need to have it like that? Like, like, why did you change up the, you know, and it's just like, it's beauty. You know, we're, we're always, you know, and so taking the chips out of the bag and putting them in a wooden bowl right, is, it's that extra added elements of. Make the food good, make it presentable, change your hand towels.

You know, it's not major things, but it's, but it's small things. Yeah. 

[00:40:50] Jim Jansen: But talk about some of those details. 'cause I think for some people, if they're maybe not the natural host, you know, hospitality, it's not their charism like at, right. Like, just how do you do Beautiful. How do you do good food? And even, I mean, not to be that guy, but like, to not have like the budget get in the way.

[00:41:11] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. Yeah. So, two, two things here. One is, I mean, I definitely would say that if it's not your strong suit, you probably know somebody who it is, right? Mm-hmm. So don't be, don't be afraid to say, Hmm, hosting people is not my thing. Or this is not the season of life where we can host people. The idea is that you do, like I said, we had, we had sort of a natural charism to that.

I kind of grew up in a house like this. So, it's not to say this is sort of, this is everybody, right? Everybody's not supposed to host a thing, but chances are you do know somebody who is like that. Or maybe it is with the other spouse who's like, I'm happy to do that. That sounds great. Um, so that just, so just to clarify, you know, this is not me saying Yeah, that's helpful.

Yeah. But front yard, everybody can do, that's that first step. But, but if you really want to build that relationship, it could be, Hey, we're out here, but hey, you know, on Thursdays we get, we get over at still's house, it's just a neighborhood thing and that's what we do and we eat and blah, blah, blah. So, so having that, um, you know, whoever the captain is, you know, to, to take charge of that.

But, and then again, I think secondarily, you know, our, our, you know, kind of the idea of the practicals. I think that the way we talk about hospitality, um, especially in America and really in the South too, we tend to talk about it like I. What we want to do is do a photo shoot house and we want to cut the sandwiches into teeny tiny triangles that are, you know, you know, like perfectly cold or you know, that everything has to be Absolutely.

But that hospitality and really the root words and the way that, the way that the, the Bible talks about hospitality is really the welcoming of the, of the alien. It's the welcoming of the stranger into, into your zone. And what is your zone? Your zone isn't always perfect. Your zone isn't always totally like a magazine or an Instagram post.

Like it's, it's messy. Yeah, it's messy too. 

[00:43:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah. There's a, there's a phrase that, uh, we had a guest on. Yeah. A local guy. Talks about scruffy hospitality. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. You know, like, like don't, you know, doesn't, it doesn't have to, it doesn't have to be Martha Stewart. It can be just a little, and there's something charming about that too.

Like, I actually have a, I have a friend who has the gift of hospitality, but like, in any circumstance, you know, hanging out on a farm or like, we don't actually have a table. Let's just, right. You know, let's, let's, uh, put a blanket over this haystack. I mean, it's just like our hay bale. I mean, it's just like, but people can tell when you're thinking about them, when you offer the best.

Yeah. People can, the best you have, people can tell. 

[00:43:58] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. And I will say something. I love that. Would you say scruffy hospitality? Yeah. I like, yeah, we like the word, you know, gritty. I mean, I think sometimes gritty, messy go, but these are beautiful. These are beautiful. Right. That's yours. Those are yours.

Those are your unique. Attributes. And you know, some pe that's not, some people are naturally Martha Stewart, like they're mm-hmm. They're naturally Joanna Gaines and that's not, so it's not to put them down and say like, oh, you know, that's over the top. And think. 

[00:44:29] Jim Jansen: No, praise God for that. 

[00:44:30] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. Praise God for that.

My, yeah. Thank God my wife is, is very much that way. And like, but the idea is that you're creating a space where people feel comfortable to bring their gift. Right. And so, when you, when you overdo it, what you do is you sort of intimidate and you make people feel le less than. Right. Or you can make people feel like the, uh, the agenda, the center of the world.

So, if every time a neighbor walked into my house, which by the way they just walk in, you know, now. Mm-hmm. That's like, that's, that's the way, that's the way it should be. If I jumped up and was like. Hey, I'm so glad you're here. And I gave 'em a big hug and I would, can I get you something? And can I, they'd be like, what are you doing?

[00:45:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. They don't wanna be fawned over. Acknowledged, but not like fawned over or whatever the, yeah. 

[00:45:28] Ennie Hickman: So, so I have a practice of if I am really close with a person, they feel more honored when I don't get up. When I'm like, bro, I missed you. Good to see you. You know? And then they see a new person come in and I do my thing that where I'm like, hi, welcome.

Here's this, here's that. The insiders feel, oh man, look at me. I'm an insider. I'm an insider. I, now, they feel, now they feel like they need to be the welcoming committee, and they need to be the people that are welcoming people in, you know? And so, we, so anyway, so kind of undoing and unlearning this idea of hospitality is not something that is, you know, this big to-do.

And making people the center of the thing, but kind of creating an environment where they can come in and be themselves and offer their gift to, to the gathering, which might be a dish, might be a story, might be a, I've had a long week, and I need to decompress. Yeah. Or whatever it might be. But, but on our part, it's very simple things, subtle things.

And it's, it's the senses, right? So, smells. Yeah. Pay attention to the smells. People smell differently. And houses tend to smell like the people who live in it, right? 

[00:46:39] Jim Jansen: Yes. Yes. 

[00:46:40] Ennie Hickman: And so, I. Diffusers are awesome, right? So just like, buy a diffuser, get a diffuser, diffuse some, some, some, uh, essential oil that you like or whatever.

Candles are okay, but candles can sometimes be overpowering and, and you're feeling like, whoa, you just lit a candle in here. Diffusers are great for that. And so, and so when people are coming in, they're not shocked by some strangeness. Right. Onions are good for that too, by the way. 

[00:47:09] Jim Jansen: Right? 'cause they're like a, um, a universal cooking smell, whatever.

[00:47:12] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. Throw some onions on a, on a skillet and just let that thing cook. It doesn't matter what you're cooking, if you, you, you grill some onions, it'll smell good in your house. 

[00:47:20] Jim Jansen: Man, it smells great. 

[00:47:21] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. What are we having?

[00:47:22] Jim Jansen: I love that.

[00:47:22] Ennie Hickman: Uh, not fajitas. Uh, just kidding. So, the smells and then, and then general cleanliness.

Right? It's, it's a, it's a wiped counter. Um, in the bathroom. It's, like I said, a fresh hand towel. Um, we try to sweep, but within minutes the floor is, you know, right. Then it's gone. It's gone. But. But general cleanliness, you know, making people feel, feel welcome and it, and it's a clean thing. Some people have a real, you know, sort of a reaction to, to uncleanliness and we do, we wouldn't wanna give that impression.

And then sounds preparing a playlist of normal music, you know, if there's a praise and worship song that gets in there every now and then, that's fine too. But, but, you know, just normal, happy, good, wholesome American music is, is always a good idea. You know, if you're feeling a little, if you're feeling a little fancy, maybe some acoustic guitar or you know, some piano.

But, but really just something in the background. You know, restaurants know this. Just something to kind of drown out the awkwardness. Um, and something that gives people a general vibe of this is good and beautiful. 

[00:48:28] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:48:28] Ennie Hickman: So yeah, those are, those are literally the practical things that we, we pay attention to when we're inviting people into our home.

I. That make people feel welcome. But then of course conversation is the next, um, you know, is the next thing. 

[00:48:40] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Go, go there. 'cause I think that's the part that people are afraid of. Yeah. Is like the, ah, man. Like, what do I say? What do I do? You know, I've like, I got two questions. So, when did you move into the neighborhood?

What, what, what, what do you do again? Okay. All done. You like, like how do you, how do you sustain a meaningful conversation again, not that it has to be deep right away. No. It's just not awkward. 

[00:49:05] Ennie Hickman: Right. And that's, and I think that during, look, I would say stay there, right? As long as possible. People, when they wanna get deep, will get deep.

[00:49:16] Jim Jansen: Mm. 

[00:49:16] Ennie Hickman: And I'm not saying stay surface. Uh, going back to what we were talking about earlier about gen, genuine curiosity, the idea is that, you know, pretend you're, pretend you're an interviewer, pretend you're, uh, you know, you're writing a biography. I tend to just ask questions like, where are you from? You know, did you, did you grow up in this neighborhood?

Did you grow up, you know, in hu Tell me more about that. And then looking for, looking for opportunities to say, you know, because honestly people love, even the shyest of people love to get talking when it's about the things that they love. So, it could be veganism and, and you're like, I actually don't know anything about veganism.

Like, tell me more, tell me more, tell me more about this thing that has, that I just am never, I'm never gonna learn otherwise. And you're the expert on it because you clearly are a, you know, you wanna do it that way. Tell me more. It could be, you know, another one would be cats. You know, like you have a neighbor that loves cats.

You know, I'm not a, I'm not a cat guy, but like, tell me like, tell me about cats. Like what's up with the cats, you know? You know, again, it doesn't have to be deep or religious. The goal would be to get the, get a, get a neighbor, you know, to really, you know, not even to open up, but just to talk about the things that they love and the more you ask mm-hmm.

You know about that thing, the next time they're there. Hey, you were telling me about, you know, last week you were telling me about your granddaughter who plays soccer. How did her game go? Boom. Now you're, you're off, now you're going. Boom. Grand granddaughter. Oh man. Let me tell you about my granddaughter.

[00:51:00] Jim Jansen: Yeah. A Ennie, you alluded to this earlier, but the simplicity and the freedom of just getting to know your neighbors, having conversation, sharing meals. There's some things that we need to unlearn. Hmm. That kind of get in the way. Hmm. Can you just kind of go through some of those? 'cause they're under the surface and they're there and they're sometimes kind of taint.

Our thinking and our efforts, but I think it'd be helpful to get some of those out so we can get them out of the way. 

[00:51:30] Ennie Hickman: Yeah, I think that it's so hard because once you realize that God's plan A is to pour his spirit into you and that it is your, you know, like it's your life's work to bring glory to his name, it is like the reason you exist to point people to his glory and his majesty and his lordship and that the good life and the way is in him.

And once you're, once you're sort of in that and you believe that, and that is the way that you walk on a daily basis and you're, you, you really. It's not anybody's fault, but our first inclination is just to bring out that bazooka of truth that is in fact true, but we, we shock the system. We shock the neighbor, you know, we, we blow 'em away, you know, with the bazooka.

You know, maybe that's a bad, maybe that's a bad term. It's probably too, man, it's too many shootings lately. Let's go to a different model. Mm-hmm. How about the light of the world? We're, we're called to be the light of the world, not the Q beam. You know, we're not the spotlight. 

[00:52:49] Jim Jansen: Right, right. You're like, turn, yeah, we turn on like the, you know, the search light.

[00:52:53] Ennie Hickman: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:52:53] Jim Jansen: Blinding your neighbor. Ah, you know, it's too bright. I'm just here for the chili. 

[00:52:57] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. I like hot dogs. I thought we were friends. Yeah, exactly. Like, so this isn't, this isn't to say, right, that we're not bold in telling the truth and or that somehow we're watering this, this down, that, you know, because I think in our, in our zeal, this is all very natural to feel this way and to want to proclaim the truth immediately.

But I think one of the things you have to unlearn is that just like children, right? You know, I don't. I'm not shouting at my, my daughter who's, you know, just, Hey, potty training, potty trained, the last one. So, two, two years old, potty trained. If, if she's not getting it, you know, I'm not, I'm not, louder, doesn't help.

I'm not re-explaining why she should poop on the potty, you know, come on. Like, why aren't you, you know, like that is just, it's a, it's a graduate and this is how things grow. This is how humans grow. This is how, you know, all of creation grows. We're continually slowly over time, patiently growing. And so, I think learn like with that same zeal and passion.

Bite your tongue. Yeah. Well, 'cause there's a progression, right? Yeah. There's a progression. So, so it's like, you know, so with that same, Ooh, I want you to know the truth. I want you to be, I want you to know the way, I want you to know that this is what you're looking for. I will so commit to that, that I will bite my tongue right now in this instance, because I know that you're my neighbor and you're right next door.

And I'm gonna have, hopefully years to not only witness to you with my life and the way that I love my family and the way that I go to church every Sunday, and the way that I, you know, the way that I, we, we celebrate feasts and the way that we do solemnities and the way that we fast, we we're gonna witness to you because you're right there.

But also, there's gonna come a moment where I'm gonna get to share the gospel with you. I know it, it will happen. It because everyone, everyone suffers. And in the moment of suffering, when you can offer. You know, Christ, there's something in them like that just goes, that sounds right. You know? Right. Yeah.

You know, my, my life is in shambles and everything I've tried has not worked. What was this you were saying about Jesus? Yeah. What was this you were saying about the Catholic church? What, you know, you guys seem full of joy even when there's death in your family, or, you know, it doesn't feel like you have enough money.

You guys are fine. Tell me more. That's the unlearning. It's like, it's like, one of the things we use at our, at our school is we use the term go slow to go far. Right? So sometimes you have to just learn and unlearn that like fast isn't the best. Sometimes we have to go slow to go far. And so, learning that with your neighbors, I think that's, that's pretty key.

Maybe the principle thing is that. 

[00:56:02] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:56:03] Ennie Hickman: This is the long, long, long relationship. This is the, uh, this isn't a, um, an instant thing. 

[00:56:10] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's huge. 

[00:56:11] Ennie Hickman: I think the other big one is that, you know, say I was referring to, you know, stranger danger. I mean, how many years did we see the PSAs, you know, as we're watching our cartoons, you know, like there's gonna be some man that drives up and takes us away.

And, you know, it's this idea that, you know, anybody that I, that I don't know or that is different than me should be feared. You're, you probably voted for, you know, uh, so and so and so, you're the enemy. Mm-hmm. And I need to just fear you. And if we talk, we're probably just gonna ne we're never gonna see eye to eye.

And so, what's the point of building the relationship? Or I'm not even sure that I wanna be associated with you. Like, if you come over and I'm talking to you, like, what are my friends gonna think? You know, this idea that there is, yeah. There's this social capital that we're offering up when we say, you know, I have a gay friend, or I, you know, or I have somebody who, you know, it's that, that, like, as Catholics, somehow we're called to just like, circle up and Yeah.

All wear the same, uh, you know, the same cool denim dresses and fedoras or whatever it might be. I hope that doesn't offend you. Hope, I hope you have a fedora. I, I don't, I don't need to make fun of the. 

[00:57:33] Jim Jansen: No, I, I, I don't have a fedora butt, but my denim dress is, no, I don't E either. Either one. Yeah, exactly. No, I mean, that's, how do you break?

So, I mean, viscerally. 

[00:57:42] Ennie Hickman: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:43] Jim Jansen: Sometimes it's so deep in us. How do you break out of that? 

[00:57:46] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. I really, yeah, I would say that the story hack, like I said, I mean, just wanting to know the story, being open to learning something and, and then, you know, this is kind of a, this is a, an an easy deal and we talked about it just a minute ago about, you know, about beauty, is that we, you know, we have a saying, we always say we might not agree on religion or politics, but we agree that the fajitas are good, right?

Like, that's awesome. The idea that really you could be very different and actually agree on a ton of things. You know, you, you actually will find that. Humans are not that different. Like you are not, you're not going through something that no one's ever been through before or you know, that, that, that literally, like, you have this unique, you are a unique individual and embodied soul that is in a shared experience of humanity.

And, and chances are, when you are being vulnerable and letting someone into to the sort of the, the humanness of your life, they'll do the same. Mm-hmm. You'll find out, wow, actually you're not so different after all. So, it does take a little bit of that muscle. You have to practice these things. You gotta work out, you gotta work out those hanging with different people muscles.

Like I said, we've been, you know, we've been at this for a while, so it's not gonna be right like overnight, but I, I promise the, you know. Whatever you're, whatever you're afraid of. If they're living in your neighborhood, you probably shouldn't fear them too much. They're probably just like you. Right? And then also the opposite of like the evangelist, right?

Like, there are people, they're, they're gonna evangelize you into vegan. They're gonna want to not just explain veganism to you, but also, you know, tell you that they think you should be vegan, right? Or that you should be this way. There is, uh, there's also that fear of being caught in a fight, right? Or being caught in a, in a, in an awkward, Ooh, we disagree.

You're trying to tell us. I'm gonna say no. So, so I'd say practically, and people ask this in our, in our network all the time, what do you do when they say something that is just not true? Right? Like, I. Gender ideology, or what if they say this in front of my child? What if we, you know, get into a conversation and there's something that is just, you know, uh, it's just not true.

It's un it's an untruth. What we, what we practice is, is simply, you know, learning phrases that will not deflect, give the person dignity, but no, no dignity to the untruth. Right? 

[01:00:33] Jim Jansen: No false agreement. Unintended. Yeah. No false agreement. No pretending we're agreeing. No. Like, ah, you know, what does, its, what does it sound like? Give us an example. 

[01:00:41] Ennie Hickman: You know? Wow. Whoa. That is an interesting perspective. I wanna talk to you more about that. That would be, that'd be something that is a, not now, you know, or Yeah, yeah. We're, we wanna talk about this more. That's an interesting perspective. Rather than saying like, well, tell me more about that.

You know, and then learning for, you know, learning in this way of like, continue, you really have to. You have to guard yourself against that, that desire to be right. 

[01:01:15] Jim Jansen: Well, 'cause, because it's a defense mechanism. 

[01:01:18] Ennie Hickman: Totally. You probably are right. I mean, you probably are right. We say this, you know, like the idea that truth will defend itself, right?

And so, and when you're playing the long, when you're playing the long game and you're in relationship and it's ongoing, and somebody says something that's not true, you hold the truth. You know what the truth is? You can let the truth defend itself in and through your witness and the way that, you know, the way that you live and the way that you approach these subjects.

So ultimately, right? Like there's going to be a day where truth, you know, will, it'll all be reconciled. And so, so, yeah. So, in the, in the moment though, you know, I'll tell you like, we've had a couple, you know, we've had a couple of awkward situations. We had a young man, it was late at night. There were, you know, maybe four or five people on the porch, and he decided to, to come out right there on the, you're, you're my family.

Totally disowned. This is my, you know, you're my hood crew. I love being here. I want to tell you, you know, and I've never told anybody this before, you know, and everyone who was sitting there, no one, no one clapped, no one applauded. No one hugged, no one. You know, it was more of a, okay man, that's, you know, I don't even even remember what was said.

Nobody walked away. There was not a, it was not a huge deal, you know, or anything like that. But it was a, it was definitely something that we were gonna have to follow up on. And of course. You wouldn't have even known. I had to make sure that he knew that he was still welcome at my house and that there was no, you know, but that, but that anytime there was an outward, you know, sort of outward appearance here, like this would come into conflict with the way I'm raising my family.

Yeah. And he totally understood. I totally understood. There was never a second guess of does any love me, because we had already built that relationship that he felt, you know, confident in, in that thing. 

[01:03:17] Jim Jansen: Well, it's a, a tremendous act of trust on his part. Yeah, yeah. Right. Not, not that it's not, does it put you, you know, in, in a little bit of an awkward position?

Uh, more than a little, but, but what a compliment. 

[01:03:29] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. Right. There was a compliment hidden in there. Yeah. Yeah. As the sweat beads were building on my temples, I was like, huh, that's amazing that he, you know, that he thought to do that. I had, you know, a lot of people are upset at the church as soon as they, you know, hear were churchy people.

Jesus people. They wanna, they wanna spill the guts of all the, you know, all the things that happened to them and how bad their church experience was. And, you know, some of it's very valid. Obviously some things have been festering for years that they, it's turned into resentment and overblown and these types of things.

Yeah. Great. Let's clean, let's clean the wound. Get it out. Yeah. Smiling and saying, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that happened to you. Have you seen the, you know, the pope's latest, uh, letter? You know, it's, it's amazing. It actually talks just, you know, just about that, you know, or mm-hmm. Um, there, there are definitely opportunities to do that.

That's kind of one of the first things you can feel yourself. Like, you know, you wanna, you wanna defend the church, you wanna defend the priesthood, or you wanna defend the Pope, or you wanna, you know, um, you know, be, you know, be, be the knight, pull out your sword and. 

[01:04:41] Jim Jansen: Well, but yeah. But it's not like it's, you're not selling out to acknowledge the reality of the hurt.

Right. Or even if like, okay, well, like, I'm not sure if that was a real deal, but whatever. You're clearly upset and so I can meet your pain without validating the faulty conclusions that you're coming to or whatever. 

[01:05:02] Ennie Hickman: Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and again, it just does come back to that. Do I want to, to have another?

Connection with this person, right? Where can I still leave that door open? Where can we continue? Um, as opposed to, you know, doing something or saying something that totally shuts that door, you know, in the end. And, and, and then as you know, and then as you get to know, and again, it's so funny 'cause we're talking, I mean, now these are, these are our closest friends really.

I mean, I can say, but like more than friends, neighbors, you know, now we joke about these things. 

[01:05:39] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[01:05:39] Ennie Hickman: If they're still a little anti-Catholic, they'll poke fun at it, you know, and like, oh yeah. 

[01:05:45] Jim Jansen: Remember that time you freaked out when I drove over your grass? 

[01:05:49] Ennie Hickman: Yeah, exactly. We can do that. Yeah, yeah. You know, and they go, okay, like any, always gonna make it about Mary.

And, you know, something like that. You know, like here he comes with his, with his Catholic stuff in a way that is, that is friendly and is is like, uh, is there's an intimacy there and there's a closeness and. They know where to come when they need prayer. They know where to come when, when something tragic happens.

And, and they know where to come when they have their questions, you know? Yeah. That's it. And that's, that's, yeah. Yeah. So, it's been, it's been a wild, it's been a wild journey. This is like, you know, I think the big deals are, you know, committing to it. I think a lot of people are inspired, or maybe you feel that tension and you go.

Oh my gosh, I'm, I feel I've never felt so judged in my life, you know, like mm-hmm. I feel like I am the worst follower. Um, when you start to realize that like, man, I should be reaching out to my neighbors. I think that there's, um, there's something to that conviction. Listen to that conviction and start with smart.

Start small. Start with a cer, uh, certain commitment. Like, just like you do, lent, all right, now we're gonna commit for the next year. We're gonna sit out in the front for, you know, as much as possible. I'm gonna learn names, I'm gonna learn what you know, what their names are, and who you know, who they are.

Um, and begin there knowing that you have, you have, you know, quite a few years or, you know, at least lots of connections to, to make an impact there. And, you know, and so that's what kind, that's what we're up to and that's what we want to do for folks. And, and like talking about it is awesome. I think I would rather be doing the thing.

Doing it is better than talking about doing the thing. 

[01:07:31] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[01:07:32] Ennie Hickman: But these opportunities are great. And so, if there's anybody, you know, any of your listeners who are like, wow, you know, let's go. I think that's, um, you know, there, that's sort of the way we began. It's like, just start small. Do something small.

[01:07:43] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I, I wanna go there 'cause any, our time is totally flown. I want to give you a chance to talk about the network Yeah. And about the pilgrimages, particularly blessed Stanley Roter. 

[01:07:54] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. Yeah. Um, well let's start there. Blessed Stanley Roter, first American born martyr. Beatified by Pope Francis in 2017.

He was a missionary in Guatemala on the most beautiful lake in all the world, I believe. Uh, lake Lan and Guatemala. It's, it's flanked by three volcanoes. Um, it's in the Highlands. The weather never moves from like. 68 to 81 or something. It's like, it's eternal spring, just absolute beautiful. I mean, if you like that kind of thing, if you like that kind of thing, if you like, uh, nice, nice weather like that sunshine.

Anyway, we, we, uh, my wife grew up there. She's, uh, was a missionary. Her, her folks were missionaries. That's one of the things I didn't mention is that she's a convert to the face. She grew up, uh, Protestant missionaries in Guatemala. And, um, and so we immediately started going there often and, and found blessed Stanley Roader.

And so, each year, about twice a year, um, we'll take a group of folks, whether they've, they're a part of the, you know, Del Ray collective or they're people who are just, uh, you know, looking for. More than a vacation, more than a, you know, a trip or a pilgrimage, but something that's refreshing and restful and 

[01:09:08] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm.

[01:09:09] Ennie Hickman: And normal, we eat, you know, it's like, we don't, we don't have, like, I, it's not any walking you around with a little sign like, follow me. It's, um, it's kind of at your own pace and, uh, it's just a beautiful week, um, of rest and prayer. And it's in the space where blesses Stanley Roder, you know, was, uh, it's, it's with his people and in the, in the place where he was martyred and, and gave his life.

And it's just an absolutely amazing time. So, part of that is come hang with us. You know, we get to talk to you about, you know, sort of being ordinary missionary disciples, you know, where you're at with your family, um, whether you're working in the church or not. You know, it's sort of a, a more intimate interaction with Delray Collective and, and not just Kane and I, but uh, but others that.

That have adopted this sort of, this lifestyle and, and, and living to love your neighbors. And beyond that, you know, Guatemala is, is a neighbor. And as you know, um, our neighbors are in tough, a tough spot. They're still in tough spots. Tough. So tough, so tough. They would risk their life and put a lot of money on the line to, to make it to our country.

And we just believe in the, again, the simple, the simple economy of what if we made it better there, you know, for our neighbors. What if, what if we listened to our neighbors more and, and really started to serve some of their needs there in addition to loving those that are, you know, that come into contact with us.

How can we aid there? So, part of part of the deal with Guatemala is that, you know, when you go, we hear like, oh, we're gonna Guatemala. Everyone thinks, oh, you're going on a mission trip. And it's like, yeah, yeah. Like, when are we not on a mission? Yes. When are we not on a mission? We're always on a mission.

We do some service there, but more of, more of it is just that relational, it's, it's learning the stories, it's learning, it's learning to listen to the people and really how a lot of this stuff happens. So, in a, in a kind of a macro way, Guatemala is, is a neighbor in that way. Um, and then, and then the Delray Collective, which you can, you can, uh, find us on the web delraycollective.com.

We have a, what's called the Open Porch Network, and it's a loose network of neighbors who are opening their home to their actual neighbors. Every week you can, you can, uh, kind of come into the network. There's resources. You get, you know, some contact with us. We can, you know, walk you through some practical questions if you have those.

You know, this is not a, this is not monetized. There's no paywall. We're not trying to, you know, like make this a thing. It's a, it's really. 

[01:11:53] Jim Jansen: for $99.99 a month, I will teach you how to be a neighbor. 

[01:11:56] Ennie Hickman: Yeah, exactly. It's not that, um, we, we, we do have a book forthcoming, but it'll be a, it'll be a cookbook. Nice.

Kind of tied in with a lot of the practical things so that, that's forthcoming. But the, uh, but the idea is that, you know, this non programmed program of the open porch is, is just this, it's a commitment of weekly, weekly opening up your, your porch and, and you can have access there. And really that's our heart's desire is to resource just sort of the everyday folks who are going, I want to do something.

I want to be a missionary. But I don't have a podcast, or I don't have a speaking ministry, or I'm not an author, or I, I'm not a priest. 

[01:12:35] Jim Jansen: And I'm definitely afraid of flying. 

[01:12:37] Ennie Hickman: And I'm afraid, yeah, I'm not going there, but, but I wanna do something. This is, we wanna resource you Yeah. And, and help you, um, love your neighbor, love your actual neighbor in that way.

So, yeah, you can go on there and then you can also, there's also a tab where you can learn if there's anybody in your neighborhood or in your city that's doing that. And, um, and, and then we will, we'll connect you in that way so that you, that's awesome. You know, maybe you can walk over and say what's up?

Or that just becomes the place that you, you hang out weekly. 

[01:13:06] Jim Jansen: Yeah, well, we're gonna link to that, the delraycollective.com. We're gonna link to that in the show notes. Cool. Any thank you. Thank you for who you are and what you do. I mean, I really appreciate just making right the call to love your neighbor and like be a missionary disciple, just ridiculously accessible.

[01:13:27] Ennie Hickman: Yeah. That's how it is. That is such a gift. Yeah. Thank you. No, thanks for having me. And it's a gift talking to you. Our, our flight, like our time. We just like went way over and so I hope that's okay. No, no, no. 

[01:13:38] Jim Jansen: I'm gonna like, I'm gonna advertise at the beginning, like he says all the best stuff at the, you know, at, at the very end.

You gotta hang in there. I love it because it, it's good stuff. So. 

[01:13:47] Ennie Hickman: No, I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. Uh, yeah. And we hope to connect with as many of your listeners as possible. 

[01:13:53] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Amen. Alright, everybody, you know somebody who needs to hear this. I. Somebody, right? And maybe they're just the kind of person who, who drives on their neighbor's grass or their, you know, they're like, oh man.

And, and there's, there's something in here that, that kind of whoop alerted you that they need to hear this. Go and share that out. I mean, I wouldn't, you know, don't tell 'em they're, they're a bad neighbor, but just like, Hey, you ought to, you ought to listen to this. Thanks for, thanks for tuning in everybody.

Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip dot arch omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.