[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Quipcast. So today I sit down with Matt Ingold of Metanoia Catholic, and I'm on the other side of the microphone. Matt interviewed me for his podcast and was generous enough to, uh, let us have the audio so you all get a chance to listen as well. Matt and I talk about everything from the four temperaments and, uh, the journey of self-awareness and the power of the four temperaments for team building and sending people on mission to how they can be used for evangelization and different thresholds of conversion and discipleship and part of building a clear path of discipleship.

We talk about Catholic coaching, I give a little bit of the backstory of the writing of the book. We have a really fun conversation. If you are at all interested in parish renewal, our building teams for mission, or just want to know a little bit more about your own temperaments, uh, you're going to love today's conversation.

Take a listen. Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith. And to be fruitful in your mission, let's go.

[00:01:18] Matt Ingold: Hey folks. Welcome back to the Catholic coaching podcast. My name is Matt Ingold. I'll be your Catholic coach, your lone Catholic coach for the day. And I got a special interview here with my friend, Jim Jansen, really excited to have Jim Jansen on here. We like to bring people on the podcast that are real examples of a life on mission, right?

Our mission at Metanoia Catholic is helping to helping people to discover, discern, and activate their God given mission. And Jim's a great example of that. And so. I'm excited to have him on. I actually ran into Jim at SEEK. I was wanting to run into him. He was presenting at SEEK. I think that's correct, Jim.

I was wanting to run into him and it wasn't until it wasn't until adoration that I actually ran into him and he was 17, 000 people. 

[00:01:59] Jim Jansen: Yeah, it was bumped into each other. 

[00:02:02] Matt Ingold: It was perfect. 17, 000 people and he just happened to be like six rows in front of me and it was perfect. And so we were able to organize this together.

But if you don't know, Jim, Jim's been in ministry, uh, for a long time. It's one of those rare people that has actually stayed his entire professional career working in ministry. And so I'm really curious to hear what's keeping you driving is that's a tough, that's a tough thing to do. It's got a master's in pastoral theology, Ave Maria university, right here in our backyard.

And you're one of the OGs from focus, man, like 1999, you were one of the original missionaries. Can't wait to get into that backstory. But now you're in the archdiocese of Omaha. So I'm kind of just jumping through. We're done with the bio. If you got anything else you want to add in here, Jim, go for it.

[00:02:46] Jim Jansen: I'm married. I have a, I have six kids from college to kindergarten and my oldest just, uh, just signed up to be a focus missionary himself. So he's like the fifth, second generation focus missionary, which is pretty cool. 

[00:03:01] Matt Ingold: That is pretty cool. Awesome. Well, big shoes to fill, right? But no pressure, no pressure.

Tim, thanks so much for being on here. I love to start in the beginning here. I love stories. I've seen you on podcasts before you on Ron Huntley's podcast. Uh, not too long ago, you're sharing your book a little bit more about your book, A Clear Path. I've got it here. I'm putting it to work for myself.

We'll get to that here in a little bit, but I'd love to hear a little bit of the background, really how you even got started as one of the original focus missionaries. 

[00:03:32] Jim Jansen: Man, so that would be last millennium, right? So, 1999. So, God really changed my life. I'm a Benedictine college grad. Uh, God intervened in my life in a really powerful way, beautiful Eucharistic moment.

And right after that conversion experience, my roommate invites me to be in a Bible study. I'm just, but my heart is just at the space where I'm able to say, yes, you know, a week earlier, you know, might've punched him a week later, just would've laughed it off, but it just caught me in just the right spot.

And then the next year I got involved. There's this new associate professor at Benedictine, uh, Edward Sri. And I got involved in his bible study And like quite literally I laugh now because the you know, I mentioned my son JP Just you know, he had to go through like this huge interview process psychological exam I went to pizza with Curtis martin and ted serena.

They're like, hey, do you want to do it? I'm, like, yeah, that sounds really fun. So, like that was my which was probably good I don't know how I would have done with the psychological exam. I was the 11th missionary hired by focus and what's interesting is You know, despite the fact that God had changed my life and intervened, I was still embarrassed to be a missionary.

So, I remember telling one of my, one of my friends that I was going to be a missionary and he's like, Oh, you're not going to be one of those people walking around talking about Jesus. Are you? Which is not a bad job description, right? And that's a pretty good summary of what it means to be a missionary.

And I was so offended by that, you know, by that thought that I hit him. Which is I'm not endorsing at all, but I was just like, I was embarrassed to actually preach the gospel. I loved hanging out with people. And then this is like, I mean, sadly, right? This didn't just disappear after my first training. I mean, I loved, I loved hanging out with people.

I love winning people over, you know, in focus language, winning people over. And I loved. Building them up and send them out on mission. It was the part where I had to talk about Jesus and invite them to entrust themselves to him. When maybe that wasn't a sure guarantee because they weren't already yet disciples.

They weren't already trying to follow him. That was hard for me. And that was like a, that was a conversion process within the life of being a missionary. I remember it was a couple of things happening. One. There were a lot of missionaries who were really, at the time, rediscovering the power of the kerygma, the power of just proclaiming the core gospel message.

Um, and I was, I was doing a master's, my master's from Ave Maria at the time, a master's in pastoral theology. And so, I'm reading John Paul II and the church's thoughts about evangelization. 

[00:06:20] Matt Ingold: And this is as you're a missionary, you're going through a master's program.

[00:06:23] Jim Jansen: I was a couple of years in, yeah, and, and as I'm reading this, I'm realizing it's like, oh man.

There's this essential part of evangelization that I'm not comfortable doing. And praise God, it was my competitive side, friends that had better stories than me, other missionaries, and then really just marinating in the teaching of the church that I'm like, okay, I can do this. And I actually I started to like proclaim the gospel and invite people to entrust themselves to the person of Jesus.

[00:06:55] Matt Ingold: And so that's a big shift. I'd love to hear him because like, is that that's a big shift because there's a lot of people I think that can identify with with that same situation where just like, okay, I'm great with building relationships, winning other people over. But as soon as I have to actually throw the J word out there, I actually have to invite.

The person to actually say yes, which is a central part to even your book here and disciple making. I'm curious, like what was the mindset that you had before that made it really difficult or embarrassing to kind of go to that place? And then what was the shift? 

[00:07:28] Jim Jansen: That's a great, you know, that's a great question, Matt.

I mean, I think a couple of things were in play one, and it was just more than I would like to admit. I was just a product of the world. And so, I wasn't. You know, I had experienced Jesus as a savior as a loving personal, but I still believed at least partially the lie that Jesus was only a divisive figure that made people uncomfortable and whatever.

And of course, I mean, you know, to save us. He's he's not unwilling to make us uncomfortable, but I just I kind of bought some of the world's why I was vain I didn't want people to think you know, I知 sanguine. Sure. I like being liked I didn't want people To think that I was like that guy and then the, probably the biggest thing, which was part of the healing process is it, is I didn't really know the power of the gospel.

I mean, the power of a simple proclamation of who Jesus is and what he offers and inviting someone to respond to that. I didn't know the power of that. And then when I started to see it happen, as I started to see like the gospel reach into people's lives and change their lives. It kind of becomes addictive.

It's like, oh, this is great, you know, and you see a whole nother dimension of the Lord's Life at work through your life. 

[00:08:52] Matt Ingold: Is there a particular moment that that you can remember or maybe a story of where you saw the power of the gospel really effective in somebody's life that kind of started to, I guess, build a little bit more evidence that, yeah, this is real.

[00:09:07] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, there's a couple, I mean, I got a dozen or more, but like the one that really stuck out and there's this wonderful, wonderful young woman, we'll call her Lisa. Lisa's in the choir, like literally, I mean, she's a faithful girl. I was teaching this, uh, scripture class at the time. So, I'm, you know, she's like in the choir.

She's taking the scripture class. And I remember I had this conviction. I do this office hours. I'd meet with all the students in the class. And I have this conviction, like I'm, I'm supposed to share the gospel with Lisa. And I'm like, okay. I mean, this is, you know, Lisa's about as non-threatening as it gets.

She's in the choir. She's a churchy kid. No problem. And I remember I got to the point where I was asking her Yeah, he was using a little illustration, you know, like where are you at? You're really in your relationship with Jesus Where do you want to be? And I remember she kind of pointed to the kind of the all in with Jesus picture and she's like here I guess An astute listener that I was I知 like you guess and then it just all tumbled out of her She's like, I don't know.

Well, maybe it was like if he makes me be a non-member all of this like fear and desire and confusion just tumbled out of her heart and I was able to say like, Lisa, everything you want to be, that's what Jesus is offering you. But that's, that's who he wants you to be. The only difference between you and everybody else that seems to have it is they've given him the keys.

Watch it. Like, you know, where he's at, you know, I'm like gesturing towards the chapel, go give him the keys. And, uh, she did and she like came back, like the next day, I was like, now what? And so I was able to like, you know, connect her with like a missionary. Funny, funny thing. One of the female missionaries on campus.

Funny thing was, like, years later, my very last day as a missionary on campus, you know, I've got this beautiful moment with, with the Lord and to my surprise, it's kind of like, I don't know, did I, did I do anything here is kind of coming up my last day and I'm sitting in the chapel and I look over and who's sitting just a few rows.

You know, uh, next to me. And so I go over and I talk with her and, and I think I'm just going to have this quick little exchange. Like, Hey...

[00:11:33] Matt Ingold: This is Lisa. 

[00:11:35] Jim Jansen: Yeah. This is Lisa. Yeah. 

[00:11:36] Matt Ingold: Lisa. 

[00:11:36] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I'd like, I think I'm just going to have this quick little exchange. Like, Hey, thank you. You had a really, I don't know if you remember that day.

And she's like, Oh yeah, yeah, totally. Actually. I'm glad you're here. I have some questions. So, I'm leading this Bible study in the women's prison and I'm like, Holy cow. And just like, I was able to see. In, like, two little snapshots, this amazing transformation that the Lord had worked from someone who was, like, doing all the things, right, trying to be as in with Jesus as she could be, but there was something about a clear, explicit proclamation of the gospel and an invitation to give herself To him that changed everything and so I saw that and that was the pattern that I've seen again and again and again Like the gospel isn't just for the like the far off away people the gospels for us It's for the really close people that that need I think that's what the story of the road to Emmaus is about I mean you see Jesus It clearly is, he's coming up on these two disciples, they are disciples, and when you get into it, they know the story, they've heard about the resurrection, but what they're missing is this encounter, and I think that's what the proclamation of the gospel does, is it renews this encounter, it reignites our hearts, I saw that with my friend Lisa, and you.

I've seen it again and again and again, and just a big part of my kind of ongoing conversion as missionary. 

[00:13:08] Matt Ingold: Your ongoing conversion as a missionary. And I love how you just even put a little bow on that, Jim, just. I can say this for myself, that oftentimes when you're in the role of, of ministering to others, it's all about the other person and we miss the mark that no, there's this whole transformation that we're being invited into in and through the ministry.

And that actually equips us to continue to do more because it's no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us at that point. So you get to see that. 

[00:13:37] Jim Jansen: Yeah, and he does it precisely in our confusions and insecurities and inadequacies as we're trying to serve him. Yeah. I mean, I am so grateful for those, all of those conversations and, you know, there's a dozen other things.

That's one of the biggest ones where, where the Lord continued to. Yeah. Really convert my heart and my mind, even as I'm serving as a missionary. 

[00:14:05] Matt Ingold: Yeah. I can even see a bit of a preparation here. So we already spoke about in the beginning how you've, you're one of those, I guess you could say rare, rare cases of somebody that has been able to make ministry their professional career.

You were a missionary, but you're also a team leader and you stayed with focus. What was it? 18 years or so that you're with 

[00:14:24] Jim Jansen: FOCUS. Yeah. 18 years with focus. And now I've been a little more than seven years now with the archdiocese of Omaha. 

[00:14:31] Matt Ingold: Okay. What's been the big changes as you move from, you know, a Catholic apostolate into an archdiocese?

[00:14:36] Jim Jansen: I can't overstate how different it is to work with 20 somethings, right? College students in a purely missionary organization. To then, you know have some responsibility to serve within kind of the institutional church. That's it. That's a big change I think I知 still adjusting to that. Uh, and it's it's it's great.

God bless, you know, good friend of mine I'll give him a shout out. Dave. He's and you know, like he greeted me. We were old friends, and he greeted me my first I think first day on the job, you know, at the chancery, he's like, wow, so what made you want to become a church bureaucrat? I'm like, Oh dear God, what have I done?

Yeah. But it's like, but it was one of those things that it's like, I don't think the missionary heart has not left me. I have a much broader, I think, picture of the responsibility. I mean, my sense of. admiration for the responsibility that our pastors and our bishops in particular carry. I think my love for the priesthood has grown as I see even closer the, the challenges that they, that they deal with, man, the Lord has used it for my sanctification.

I've been able to develop, you know, gifts and talents that I, Just had had laying dormant that I hadn't you know before before then, so it was not my idea I kind of you know, I resisted it. I loved what I was doing But the Lord really it was definitely a call and when that was clear I said yes, and here I am.

[00:16:02] Matt Ingold: And that missional part of your heart that has not gone away. That's still there. 

[00:16:06] Jim Jansen: Yeah, yeah, although it again. It's you have to learn more and more. I think I'm learning a sense of the Lord's The Lord's timing in that everything happens in a really accelerated at an accelerated pace in the lives of young people. Um, I mean, you literally have 4 max, maybe, you know, 2, depending on when you meet him 2 years that they have a bit of amazing availability.

There's a number of things that make college ministry. faster paced than the rest of, I think, ministry in the church. And so, I've had to get used to adjusting my timetables really to be, I mean, if I'm honest, just to be in line with where the Lord's actually working and moving. 

[00:16:54] Matt Ingold: Yeah. So, who are the people to whom that you're pouring into directly now?

So, you still have that missional heart. It's no longer the, the, you know, the 20 somethings, but who are the people that you're really investing in your role here at the archdiocese, which again, what's what's your official role at the archdiocese? 

[00:17:10] Jim Jansen: So, I知 the director of the parish support team. So I'd say the first answer to question is my team.

We have a team of six, uh staff members administrative Assistant Angie who helps keep things running smoothly Then there's six of us that that serve as coaches and consultants, and we serve all of the parish ministries. Unique, I think that I'm not aware of very many other places around the country.

We have internal specialists for youth ministry, religious ed, marriage prep, again, all of the different, you know, Christian initiation, all the different parish ministries for the parishes, they just get a pair. So, they get Jim and Whitney or Andy and Jodi and those pair serve all of the ministries within the parish.

So, St. Patrick's Parish, you know, Jim and Whitney provide the support for the youth ministry, the religious education, the pastor, all the adult evangelization, marriage prep, all of it, because what we were finding was, one, it's harder and harder to find people with those specialized degrees. We didn't have the chancery budget anymore to have a huge staff and have one person in every specialty. But even more than that, we found like that the needs at the parish it was always the same needs How do we make disciples and how do we work together?

Hmm, and it was just a different context. It was marriage prep religious education So there were again, and those those contests are significant. So internally, we have people who have specialized training and background in youth ministry or religious education or marriage prep, etc., etc. But for the parish's sake, they just have one, two people that they call, and we work together to help them work together and to help them learn how to make and mature disciples in whatever context they're serving.

[00:19:07] Matt Ingold: Okay. Okay. We're kind of starting to get into a little bit of the nuts and bolts of what's going on in your archdiocese, which, which I'm excited to have you on here, because I think that you guys are really pioneering a model, so to speak, and pioneers can take a lot of the arrows. There's a lot of trial and error, like your startup, right?

And so it's a good thing that you're sanguine because you need a lot of hope when you're in that startup role. 

[00:19:28] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:19:29] Matt Ingold: Give a little bit of the context of what the commission was from your archbishop and, and, and how you guys have kind of. You know, started to act on it. 

[00:19:39] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well again, we're so grateful for the uh, the freedom The the trust that archbishop Lucas showed in us We use it, we kind of like he and I have, we've come back to this metaphor a couple of times, uh, Lewis and Clark and he's like, yeah, you know, they, they're trying to find a water route to the Pacific.

Um, so they'd go down this way and be like, whoop, that's a dead end. They come down this way, you know, and just that he's very patient and tolerant with the, the entrepreneurial nature, the inventing that is necessary as you're trying to find a way forward. So there's things that we tried and we're like, well, we don't do that anymore.

So he's what he's been really patient with that and then he's also just I mean, he's been a bishop for 25 years So he just kind of knows how this goes He's like, you know, just because I say so it doesn't mean everybody's gonna do it And he's like we're gonna work with the ones who want to do this if they want to make disciples if they want to renew Their parish let's work with them and let's make the others jealous and that's just given us a freedom to Figure out what does work and, and then what happens is as, as people watch, they're like, Ooh, okay.

I want some of that. Uh, and so most of our referrals, most of the people that we end up serving that maybe we weren't previously engaged with come because the parish next door is starting to see new life and people take notice. And they're like, Hey, what are you guys doing there? And so they eventually get, get that connected with us.

[00:21:09] Matt Ingold: That sounds very familiar. That sounds like a very familiar model. Like pouring into those persons of peace. Yeah. And then all of a sudden they start to witness to the people that are around. I mean, it's like, guys, like Jesus is like such a great pioneer for what discipleship, like modeling discipleship.

And here it is, like you guys, the wisdom of saying, okay, we're not going to waste our time just trying to. Trying to convince people, but rather like we're going to, we're going to let the data speak for itself and let the fruit speak for itself. 

[00:21:39] Jim Jansen: Yeah, well, and you know, the funny thing is like, it's exactly Jesus and it's also like what the best of like social science and change management would say to, you know, people who are familiar with the Rogers innovation curve, the innovators and the early adopters, like they need to see some success.

Because the, you know, the early majority, those who are watching some of us by temperament, we're like, I don't want to be first. I don't tell me I'm going to lead the way. There are some things I love leading the way in technology, right? Like new, new tech gear and stuff like that. Like, no, like tell me, tell me somebody else is using it and that it works for them.

And then I might try it. And so, you know, temperamentally. Uh, it's it's just helpful to be aware of those patterns. Some people like to go first Some people will not go first and they want to see the success of the people have that have led the way And so that's been helpful for us. It's yeah again. It's what social science says and it's also what Jesus says. 

[00:22:38] Matt Ingold: Yeah You mentioned that there are some things that were just bridges that you're like, we're not gonna go down this way anymore initiatives that you started are there any that come to mind just for the listeners here that maybe, you know, I side note here, I think there just needs to be people that are.

Connected with you guys and there needs to be a little bit more shared learning That's kind of a part of the big big vision here But say there's somebody that works in the archdiocese or diocese and they're like, okay, this is starting to this sounds sounds interesting What are some of the things that you guys did that were absolute dead ends and just like that?

I wish we could get that one back. 

[00:23:13] Jim Jansen: Oh gosh, how much time do we have matt? No, uh, I mean, so well, we did a couple of things there are I mean, there was a board game that we had built that we don't use nearly as often as I would like. Yeah, it's called you're the pastor. It was, it was the illustration of the power of investing in, um, making disciples.

And it's a lot of fun, but maybe even more than, than the, the things that we tried that didn't work a lot of the things we tried, because kind of like in, in my gifting, like kind of like my discernment is pretty sharp. So almost everything we tried kind of worked. And so we had to like, like, okay, try to tweak it, try it again, tweak it, try it again.

It was, I don't know. I mean, I'm not around for this, but like where you're like Edison's light bulb, it's just like. It's just like iteration after iteration after iteration. So we've tried various things. So one of the things that has worked but didn't maybe work super well at first was this, uh, game called like the thresholds game and it's on, it's on the book clear path book.com website. Basically, it takes, like, the thresholds that Sherry Whittell, and then I added some stuff that, that Focus uses, and it's just this, like, little character game where you go through and you, instead of, like, reading a long chapter or getting a lecture about the process of conversion and growth in discipleship.

You just play this little game and that game has undergone I mean, I don't know where we didn't track it But yeah, we're probably at like it'd be like, you know 13. 5. I mean, we've just continued to make little improvements and little improvements and work We spend a lot of time in church basements and we spent a lot of time teaching people about evangelization And so we're just constantly watching and learning and making improvements 

[00:25:10] Matt Ingold: I'm fascinated by this game, like it's, is it literally a board game that you have or is that just kind of a metaphor?

[00:25:18] Jim Jansen: The board game with like the cool figures where we're not, that's, that's been shelved. Uh, we're not using that very often, but the thresholds game clear path book. com. You can download it there. It's free. And in about 45 minutes, uh, maybe an hour, it's super simple. I mean, it takes actually about 30 minutes, but then it's the discussion, right?

That, that flows from it. You play this game and people start to recognize these characters like a Matt and a Jim and an Adam and a, and a Lisa. And you go through, you know, these characters are like, Hey, where are they at in their spiritual journey? And pretty quickly what you begin to see is how, wow, like, yeah, like, you know, Adam who like everything he learns about the church comes from, you know, comes from CNN.

You're like, yeah, Adam's never going to come to a Bible study. On church grounds. Well, gosh, how could we get Adam and all of a sudden, like, instead of being told about the process of evangelization, people kind of discover it through the playing of this game and the conversation. So, it's, it's part of the, it shows up in the book.

I referenced it a couple of times. It's just a tool that we've developed and then continue to refine over the years to help individuals, but really to help leaders, pastors, evangelization coordinators. Orientate people to the process of evangelization, because I mean, I'm a church nerd. I love all the documents, and I love all the things in there, but you can get lost in that language really quickly.

And this is a very simple, accessible language and a very easy way where I don't have to be a lecturer. I'm just like, Hey, let's play this game. And 45 minutes later, people are like, Oh, I get it. I get it. 

[00:27:07] Matt Ingold: What it sounds like you're doing, and you correct me if I'm wrong here, some, some open up the book. I'm on page page 53 right now.

And it's 1 of the many pages that you have this clear path of this disciple laid out. Right? And you go from relational outreach. There's that kind of phase 1 where you have the trust and the openness. And then there's a conversion moment where the person's actively seeking, and then they make a decision for Christ.

And that's kind of like the center of the hourglass is if you're going off of Michael Hall's model, and then you go into the faith formation. That's really where somebody is learning about the faith. And then the evangelization formation is where you're actually helping somebody to go out on mission and be a disciple maker at that point.

So, with this game, this thresholds game, it sounds like you're training people to be astute, to recognize where somebody is at on that path so that they can tailor their approach to where, to where the person's at. 

[00:28:03] Jim Jansen: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, it came from my missionary days because, you know, there were, and again, there's, we, we use a little bit of a simplified version of this.

There are kind of more gradations in some, you know, the original kind of. Mental model that Sherry would help provided had a lot of gradations and that was super helpful. Like, I was blessed to be a part of the first FOIA that focus gave into reaching out to Division one athletes. And right now, there's a lot of momentum and there's a ton of athletes, but when we were first getting started.

It was tough sledding, you know, and if you got, if you got, I mean, and our missionaries would stand on the sidelines of practices, you know, and the coaches were like, thought we were great. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they'd sometimes make some introductions, but getting, getting an athlete to actually come and make their precious, precious free time, make time to meet with you to, to go to a Bible study.

That was a hard sell at first and what we recognize like, uh, I can't go from Weird stranger on the sideline to hey, do you want to be in my bible study in one conversation? I need to develop some trust Right, and I need to watch You know, as I developed just a natural friendship with, with this person, I treat him as a person to what there's, is there any openness, like, is there anything about their life where there might be a dissatisfaction that could be a foothold for the gospel?

And so that we. 

[00:29:32] Matt Ingold: Foothold. Yeah. 

[00:29:32] Jim Jansen: We, we needed like, we needed a little bit of a nuance way to look at like, Hey, what is happening? What, well, what is the Lord doing in this person's mind and heart? And so, yeah, that started way back in my missionary days, and then it's become a really helpful tool to really to provide parishes a common language around what do we mean by evangelization.

Because Matt, part of the challenge is when people say evangelization, everybody means different things. Some people think the really solid catechesis, right? Let's teach people about the Eucharist, and other people mean hospitality. And some people, most people don't, but a small number are like, no, no, no, I mean, evangelization, I mean, equipping people to evangelize and everybody meant something different and they were all right and they were all missing something.

And so this gave us a chance to provide a simple framework for this is, this is what the process of conversion looks like. And this is what the process of, like missionary maturity looks like. 

[00:30:37] Matt Ingold: I want to go back to to stand on the sideline and those practices because it's a really interesting concept to me.

You said what one of the things that you said as you were thinking through, like, how do we how do we build trust? And then the questions went to. What is a need that they have? What is a pain that they have? And yeah, we have a podcast episode saying that's all about why people aren't coming to your to your Bible study and it was it was all about just calling attention to a Bible study is people say yes to a Bible study when they want the benefits of a Bible study when they want they actually have a Desire to learn more about the Lord through a Bible study, but if they don't have that desire Why would they say yes to a bible study?

And so starting with that desire What were some of those desires that you were able to tap into? To start that that trust that relationship building phase of the of the journey. 

[00:31:26] Jim Jansen: Oh, man It's pretty it's pretty universal and it's only intensified. But like I think most people are lonely. Wow I mean when it really comes down to like Someone who will actually listen to them and will care about them as a person.

This is why it would take a little while, but athletes were a commodity and man, has that changed even more, you know, in the last few years with NIL money and et cetera. But like, When, when an athlete finally figured out that there's this person in my life who seems to care for me, like just for who I am. 

[00:32:06] Matt Ingold: Regardless of performance. 

[00:32:07] Jim Jansen: That was just, yeah, that was disorienting to them. They didn't know what to do because they, because sadly their teammates, their coaches, sometimes even their parents, like they didn't have a whole lot of relationships where people loved them for who they were. And so I think, you know, the, the universals being seen. Being known being loved respected. I mean all those like really deep things.

Those are always the fundamentals of evangelization. And that's partially what I like about the thresholds because I think intuitively people know this. So, so one of the fun, fun things that always happens when we play this game is, you know, I asked people about evangelization and everybody always talks about like, well, I just don't know enough.

And, and like, well, what do you mean? It's like, well, you know, like if they asked me a question about church teaching or this and this, that, okay. And then I point to in the threshold, you know, visually on the left side, people who, who don't really trust the church yet. They're, they're not so sure, or maybe they're just trusting the church and they're just kind of starting to go on a spiritual journey.

They're kind of starting to seek. It's like, no, let me ask you, do these people care? Mm hmm. About the answers to church questions, like, no, I was like, what do they care about the care of? I care. Yes. And like, again and again, what I love, one of the epiphanies that often happens when people play this game is they realize, Oh, what I'm afraid of, isn't actually a real obstacle to evangelization.

Like, my ability to just love people, to listen to them, I mean, it's not the only thing. There is a real place, right, for proclaiming the gospel and for teaching people. But for those who maybe aren't one, that they and their friend, it's just, that's not where the journey is at right now. They don't need to be angsty about that because the Lord is going to use their love.

They're listening their friendship to help get them to the next place and even better, right? We in a clear path context, suddenly like this is a communal thing. You're not alone because evangelization is a team sport and, and you actually, when it comes time for them to learn about the Eucharist. You've got a teammate that you can tag in, uh, who's like made for teaching, who loves to do that.

And you can be that bridge to connect them. 

[00:34:38] Matt Ingold: Made for teaching. I love that. And I'd love to kind of pivot over here because you, you spoke about evangelization being a team sport. And even before we turn, turn the, uh, got the cameras rolling here, you were talking about temperaments and how they've been a large part of your journey.

And, and it's a huge part of what we do at Metanoia Catholic. It's how we help people explore their unique design. There's other assessments that you could use, but. Temperaments are just so it's so foundational and it's just there's a simplicity to them as well. And yes, and uh, but I'd love to hear how temperaments and understanding someone's unique design is playing into, you know, putting people on the right roles within this, this team that's evangelizing.

[00:35:25] Jim Jansen: Well, I mean, so a couple of things like, yeah, I was using temperaments. I mean, think back in 99, 2000, because what I recognize is just because somebody is a missionary disciple and they love Jesus doesn't mean one. They understand how the Lord has made them for his service. And it certainly doesn't mean that they understand and appreciate this person next to them.

And what I loved about it, it's like, it's very simple. It's classic. I mean, you know, it's like centuries old. More than that. Um. 

[00:35:54] Matt Ingold: Yeah, millennia. 

[00:35:55] Jim Jansen: Millennia old. Yeah. And it's like, it gave people a language to understand themselves to express. They're often maybe a moment of unique need or perspective. They were able to kind of couch that.

It's like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. This is maybe it's just, it's just my melancholic, but does anybody ever wonder about, you know, and they were just, they were to express themselves and then they were able to recognize the beauty and uniqueness of this other person. So, I think it's really, it's, I feel like it's essential is like, I don't want to throw that word around lightly, but I think it's an essential tool for any missional team.

And that would be like a team that's working together, let's say to run a parish retreat or, you know, we're, we're the group that works together to help shepherd the small group movement or youth ministry or a pastor's leadership team, like having some sort of Common language Around who I am how the lord has made me who you are how the lord has made you. That's just huge, huge, huge, huge.

[00:37:02] Matt Ingold: Yeah, we rolled it out a couple of a couple of years ago We did our first ever temperaments workshop over here in our backyard at Ave Maria university I remember we just fumbled through it. Aaron, it had all kinds of typos in it. The give it to the girls soccer team there. We kept close to touch. It's a small town here in Ave Maria.

And so, you know, we were close with some of the players. We go to the games and I just love being a presence on the campus. It's just be a small part of what's happening over there. You get it. You're not, you're an alumnus. 

[00:37:31] Jim Jansen: Well, I know, I know the soccer coach. Yeah, that's great. 

[00:37:34] Matt Ingold: He's a rock star. He and Talia are great.

Tyler's wife, Denae, she went through a certification. She's, she's just phenomenal. Such a gift, uh, a gift for coaching. She's, she's even working right now with Matt Rudolph in his prison ministry. And so, she's getting to be a gift to a lot of the priests and bishops that are, that he's, he's serving there.

It was like a year after we had done the, the workshop, the temperaments workshop with him. And I ran into their coach Talia, one of the assistant coaches. And I was just like, Hey, Just curious. Are you guys like did that stick that whole temperaments thing? Do you still use it? Does that ever come up in conversation?

She goes Matt every day every day. It's part of our language But and they saw such a value of it because in it because well when they got done with that workshop all of a sudden There was clarity to why other people were acting the way they were acting and all the judgments that we had towards the way they were acting and we were taking personally and I, it starts to remove the personal, taking it all personally and, but they just, they kept beating the drum on it and so it really, it really has a way of I say building a culture of unique design where you approach the other person as mystery and you get rid of all that presumptive judgment that really is so toxic on a ministry team.

[00:38:58] Jim Jansen: Oh yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I just like, I wonder what kind of like positive effect it has had on like, you know, the, the team unity for the soccer team. But man, like what it did, I mean, what it did for my missionary teams. And then now, you know, the parish support team here at the archdiocese, and then seeing, you know, similar tools at use for parishes.

It's they're fantastic. 

[00:39:21] Matt Ingold: Yeah. They were even using in recruiting and just recognizing just how, how. You can't have a team that's all melancholic. And Tyler is deeply melancholic, the coach. And so just recognizing that, like, we just like, likes, like, right. We, we, you tend to attract people that are like us, but also recognizing that there's a great gift in the diversity of the temperaments within an organization to say they show up and do things differently.

And, and, uh, and there's great complementarity there. 

[00:39:48] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's fantastic. I love it. 

[00:39:50] Matt Ingold: Exciting. So, I've got a question here. Even Sigmund Temperament's here for a moment longer. So, so considering this full kind of spectrum that you've got, uh, you, you lay out here and, you know, starting with the phases of evangelization, the self-awareness that temperaments bring, how do you see that serving at the different phases of discipleship that you have?

[00:40:15] Jim Jansen: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:40:16] Matt Ingold: Okay. 

[00:40:16] Jim Jansen: I mean, I, I think it, honestly, I think you could deploy it almost anywhere, right? So I would tell you like at the very front end. Oftentimes, like people, like the church is an expert in the human person, right? And God, but like in the human person. And so helping people come to know who they are by leaning into something that is maybe not explicitly, you know, uh, part of the gospel, all of the temperaments.

That's attractive to people, right? So I could see it as like a pre evangelization tool just at the beginning of people's spiritual journey. They're like, hey, hey, these folks have something to say. Like, I understand myself better because of this awareness. They've, they've given me this, this mental framework.

Oh, yeah. And by the way, it's ancient. And anyway, so like. So you use it very much at the beginning. I can also imagine someone just fresh off their conversion, beginning to grow in, again, self-understanding about who they are and how the Lord has uniquely made them, which can really fuel their journey of faith.

You know, again, for those of us who are, who are sanguine dominant, like just knowing that like, Hey, I'm going to get distracted. And. Uh, I, I need to labor right to keep my attention focused on the Lord in prayer, but what is hard for me because I'm a sanguine, maybe, you know, staying focused in prayer, forgiveness tends to come a little bit easier and like, I'm sorry, I didn't even remember.

Did you do something mean? You know? And so, it's just one of those things that like, there are some virtues that are going to come easier for me. And there's some vices that are going to come easier for me. That could be really helpful for people at the beginning of their faith journey, uh, the, the explicit part where they're now trying to live as a disciple.

And of course, we already talked about, like, for those who are really going on mission, Jesus doesn't send people on mission alone. He sends people out two by two. And so having this framework to understand yourself and the person next to you. 

[00:42:21] Matt Ingold: I love that you say that there's common vices and common virtues that are associated with the temperaments and folks, if you're curious about that, I'm going to put the resource in the show notes here, but we also have it at catholiccoaching.com and our free resources section there. So, you can go check it out. But we have a temperaments report that goes through all of the four different temperaments, and it actually shares some of those common vices and common virtues. With a number of other things, common common strengths that you have. And so that's a great resource to be able to go and just start to name and claim again.

Some of these things. It's not meant to say, Hey, this is you. We're not imposing anything on you. It's use this. We always say temperaments are a great starting point to start. Like you said earlier, Jim, it gives you a language to start to describe some of these interior experiences. And just giving a language to it and that language creates culture and that culture of unique design is a such a dignifying culture.

[00:43:16] Jim Jansen: Yeah, it is and it's different. I mean, we live in kind of a plastic mass produced. Everybody's the same simply, uh, you know, simply, uh, you're a, you're a consumer and you're a part of a cog in the machine. Again, a simple framework. That's part of, I think, the genius. There's a lot of more complicated and I like, I like all those things.

I like those, those nuances, those other, those other tools that there's some value there, but I think the simplicity of the temperaments, I mean, literally it's millennia old is there's some power there because For the, for the, the kind of the team dynamic to take root, people need to know what other people are.

And when you're working with, you know, dozens and dozens of different labels and names, it can be really hard for other people that like, I'm sorry, what are you again? You know, but it's like, but if you only got, you know, sanguine, choleric, melancholic, phlegmatic, like, it's like, oh, oh, okay, I get it. And, and that helps.

So the simplicity is really part of the power. 

[00:44:20] Matt Ingold: Yes. Yes. Indeed. There's maybe you've read up on like strengths finder. I know you're familiar with that. And there was a book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's a great value, a lot more nuanced. There was a priest, uh, I interviewed him episode 92 of the Catholic coaching pod podcast, father bill Hanson.

He wrote the forward to strengths finder Catholic living in your strengths, Catholic edition. He wrote the forward for it, and at one point he was the pastor of the most actively engaged, the largest actively engaged population church in all the United States, Christian and Catholic, and he has this incredible story that he we unpack in that podcast where he's, you know, he went from a bankrupt church that was in this massive six figure deficit every single year to.

One that has a six figure surplus every single year, thriving ministries, even to the point where there were miracles that were happening in the parish, and it was using this tool StrengthsFinder to really help people understand what it is that they do best so they could show up and be that sincere gift of self.

Man cannot know himself except through that sincere gift of self, and there's this great joint engagement that happened with that. With the massive success that he saw the burning question that's in my brain here Is why aren't other people going and replicating this because I don't think there's a pastor that's out there That's struggling to keep the place afloat that wouldn't love to have The complete opposite that flip side that wouldn't love to have father bill's story But I think it gets into what you're talking about here is the complexity Of some of these assessment tools out there you insert a little bit of simplicity goodness gracious I don't know if you have any thoughts on that too, Jim. 

[00:45:58] Jim Jansen: No, I mean, I totally I totally agree.

I mean, I you know, I致e been I served as a professional missionary for again almost 20 years and part of what I致e been doing, you know in my work here with the archdiocese is taking some of those tools and reworking them to like only have three buttons, right? So they're they're more simple.

They're more accessible They're more transferable again. We live we live in a world where everything is complicated and You watch like the products again I'm, you know, I知 like I don't work for apple but part of the reason apple products have done so well is that they're just simple they're intuitive and Not everything, you know, in the teachings of Jesus is intuitive.

A lot of it is counterintuitive. We don't want to make anything more complicated than we need, than we need to. Yeah, I, I feel like it's a, it's a huge thing and something that it is part of like the, the whole thing with the clear path is like to actually make it clear. We live in this, uh, this world where we experience the multiplication of choices in our lives as exhausting, whether it's, you know, death scrolling on Netflix, like, what are we going to watch tonight or whether it's, you know, all of the smells at Yankee Candle.

We experience it, and the data shows, when we overwhelm people with choices, they just choose not to choose. They just disengage. And unfortunately, our own experience hasn't filtered down into our pastoral experience of running parishes, where we, we oversaturate people with choices. Meaning well, right in our parishes.

We have something for everybody. Yeah, but the problem is people don't know how to self-select, you know, what is this thing? How does this fit? And with too many choices, people get overwhelmed and part of a genius of a clear path is that it's it fits into this simplicity kind of genius in that it's like, oh, this is where I get started.

Yeah, this is this is where you get started. 

[00:48:08] Matt Ingold: Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's talk more about a clear path here because It's one thing to be passionate about this. It's another thing to write a book and it's, it's not the first book that's been written on discipleship. And, and so, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm curious, what was the need that you saw that was not being addressed that you really wanted to address with this book?

[00:48:26] Jim Jansen: Yeah, you know, honestly, it was very personal, Matt. So, we didn't talk about this, but my, for my 18 years with focus, I spent the entire time in Lincoln, Nebraska. That's really weird. Like I never, never got to relocate, never, you know, I, I always had dreams like they're going to send me to Montana. Nope.

Nebraska the whole time. And like I, but, but I got to see all of these kids from Nebraska come to the university, have the Lord changed their life. And then I got to see him settle and start their families and enter into parish life. And you know what happened when they entered into parish life? Not much.

I mean, praise God. They were faithful Catholics. They sang in the choir. They tried to raise their kids Catholic and there's nothing. I mean, we should not take that for granted because it isn't always the case. But we wanted more than that. We didn't, we didn't just want to keep them safe. We wanted to make them dangerous.

We wanted them to like, you know, like be salt and light in their neighborhood and their professions. And And their, their families falling away, you know, siblings and cousins and, and it, it wasn't happening. They weren't leading small groups. They weren't mentoring others. And that's a, there's a lot of things that were at play there.

But 1 of those, which came into focus for me when it became my job, when I moved here to the archdiocese was the culture and structures of parishes were not conducive. To these missionaries bearing all the fruit that they could. I mean literally they were hall of fame missionaries I saw them do amazing things I saw the fruit of their life and their witness and then it's like it got like, like shriveled up when they got into a typical parish culture.

And when you looked closer, it was still there. They were still bearing fruit, but it wasn't near what it could have been. It wasn't what it used to be. And what I realized was when you sort out all the different factors and yeah, college is different than typical parish life. Any missionary disciples is like a vine, right?

Or like an apple tree. Like it's going to bear fruit, but it bears a lot more fruit when it has a trellis. And that's what a clear path is, that even people who have missionary skills, they know how to share their story, they know how to like, draw people in friendship, and they know how to lead small groups, they, all the stuff, they know how to do that, they still need a context.

To help them along the way, right? They're like, man, it'd be really nice if our parish had some sort of ministry that when I'm making friends with people that I could just kind of bring them to this safe place where it's like, it's low key. You know, everybody here is an awesome, faithful Christian themselves.

They're going to make other good friends. And after marinating in that environment for a while, then when they're ready, I have a place where I can bring them where I know they're going to hear the gospel, and they're going to get a chance to make a decision for Jesus. And then, I have some place that I know I could bring them where they could grow and mature and learn what it means to really live as a disciple.

And then when they're ready, there's someplace that I could bring them that's going to help equip them as a disciple. I mean, again, as a professional missionary, I knew how to do all those things, but doing it alone. Oh my goodness. That's a lot. And so having a context in your parish that helps people connect, helps people get in, like, like make a decision, like have a conversion, connect to Jesus, help them grow as a disciple, and then help them get equipped as a missionary disciple, that's huge.

And so a lot of it was personal. I saw all these amazing people I knew. That we're struggling to do that because the parish culture, even the parishes that we're trying, it wasn't conducive. The structure and the culture wasn't conducive to actually making disciples. 

[00:52:23] Matt Ingold: So you kept saying, bring them to a place. And then when I kind of hit that next phase, I bring them to a place. If we jumped into one of these parishes and you even have, there's even a parish that uses a case study and maybe you can just draw from that, Jim, but what, what are those places? I'm using air quotes here for people to listen to places look like.

[00:52:45] Jim Jansen: Yeah, so, I mean, I'm intentionally not using the word program because I think there's kind of this American, you know, Achilles heel that we're like, all right, what's the program? And it's like, I mean, programs are tools and tools are good, you know, people evangelize people, missionary disciples evangelize people.

It's not about the programs. The programs provide that context or place, right? So, we want to avoid the trap of programs and events. Alone, and we want to think more in a, in a ministry context, so a context or a ministry that you might think about. It's like men's softball. I use this example in the book of like, imagine a group of guys.

They love beer. They love wings. They love softball. And they love Jesus and what they do is they start a men's softball league so that they have a place that they can invite other guys, so they just get to spend time with them, right? And that time spent in the dugout at games and practices, I mean, yeah, maybe a drink after the game that develops a relationship so that when the time is right, they can say, hey, you should come with me on the retreat.

Next month. No, no, no, no. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I know you think it's crazy, but no, seriously, like, and maybe you can reference back to that, like, moment of real conversation you had. It's like, I think I think you would like this and to have a context, a place. In this case, men's softball, where real friendships can develop, and trust can be built.

That's essential. And oftentimes parishes realize like, Oh, we don't have anything like that. We have things that could be that maybe the pancake feed, maybe the fish fry could be that. But the current reality is the fish fry is just an assembly line to make money, right? And we get people, and we have to eat their fish as fast as they possibly can.

And then we get them out the door and we get another butt in that seat. So, for parishes, when they start to recognize, Oh, my goodness, what would it look like for us to actually have a context where we can like reach out to people? Oh, it starts to be, uh, really revolutionary. And again, there's, there's just kind of, I suggest having four main steps on your clear path, relational outreach.

That's the, that's a place, you know, like the softball league, a conversion moment that basically when people are ready to ask some of those questions. When they're open to an encounter with Jesus, you either have a retreat, maybe it's a program like Alpha or Christ life, you have a place where they, they can have that encounter, and they can get those questions answered.

And then when people entrust themselves to the Lord, then there needs to be what we commonly refer to as faith formation. That's, that's a thing that most parishes have a place where like, okay, now I learned what it means to live as a disciple, but again, maybe not the kind of dry. Say formation that some parishes offer, but this is like a real rich communal, almost mentored experience of what it means to live as a disciple.

And then finally, boom, a place where we call it evangelization formation, where people can be equipped for mission. And I think that's at least two or three key elements, right? So, an evangelization formation ministry would unquestionably have something like temperaments or charisms to help people recognize how the Lord has made them for mission.

There would be unequivocally something that teaches them just basic skills of evangelization. How do you share your story? How do you facilitate a small group? How do you listen for what the Lord is doing? In people's lives. How do you intercede for people just basic missionary one on one skills? And then finally there probably has to be some fellowship because trying to live on mission can be lonely. And so, a full-fledged Evangelization formation ministry would have the fellowship it have the kind of charism temperament thing to it and it would have some basic Evangelization skill training. 

[00:57:00] Matt Ingold: Got it. Okay, so they've got the skill training and then those people are getting equipped in the skill training to to go back To the softball team, 

[00:57:08] Jim Jansen: yeah, or to their place of work or to their neighborhood or to their, you know, their fallen away family. Like, that's the, that's the really fun part. Like, once we do our part for the equipping, the Lord has a mission in mind for them.

Right. And, and so with a little bit of, this is the fun part of pastoring rather than like, you know, putting out, just putting out fires and, you know, resolving conflicts again, not that those things don't matter, but being able to help people recognize, like, I think the Lord is calling me to like, start this mom's group, like at the park with like the other kind of crazy moms, like the things they say make me uncomfortable, except for, I love them.

And I think Jesus loves them. Well, I know Jesus. I think he wants to love them through me. Man, that is a great thing to help your, you know, help your people discern. 

[00:58:08] Matt Ingold: Love it. Reading the book here for the people that want to go out and again, clear path, where can they find it? 

[00:58:14] Jim Jansen: It's on Amazon. It's both Kindle and a regular paperback, but you can, you can go to clear path book.com and that has, of course, how you can order the book, but it also has that game, the thresholds game. I was talking about number of other resources there. Yeah. 

[00:58:33] Matt Ingold: And oftentimes people put, put books out nowadays and it's, it's kind of like their, their gateway into getting more from them. And, and I'm curious if somebody picks this up and reads it, is there something yet where they can go and they can start, you know, being mentored by somebody like you or one of your people on the team to, to start to deploy some of these things at their own parish?

[00:58:59] Jim Jansen: Man, that's, uh, that's a great question. So like. So yes and no . I do, uh, do...

[00:59:06] Matt Ingold: I just commissioned... I just commissioned you, Jim. I know you've been anointed. 

[00:59:10] Jim Jansen: I know. So, I do a little bit of, uh, consulting work on the side, so I'm not adverse to having a conversation with someone. Part of what the book is designed to do and you can, people can find my information on the website, but part of what the book is designed to do is it's short chapters and there's discussion questions at the end of every chapter so that you can read it with a team.

So, you know, I'm not adverse to being an encouragement or help to people where, where I can, but you can read this book as a team and say, okay, together. First, let's do the temperament test, and then next, like, together, how does the Lord want us, right, to do, to do this? And so, you can begin to read it as a team.

You can use the game and the free resources from the website to begin to like, move, move forward in building a clear path in your parish or your ministry. 

[01:00:02] Matt Ingold: Yeah. Yeah. My system's brain is kind of going, okay, like the type of people that would need to be on that team. It's not just a team full of introverts, and it's not a team full of sanguines either.

I mean, there's everybody's going to have their own genius that they that they bring. And, you know, this, this kind of calls my attention. I'm going to open up another assessment tool here. APEST. Yes. You've heard of that one. It's this one. I love it because it really helps you to identify what some of the roles are.

Apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic, shepherding and teaching, right? The fivefold gifting from Ephesians five, I think. It's the necessity of having all of those represented, uh, on that team. And it's, that's just like that powerhouse evangelization team that has all of those roles and cover down on them, or at least as best as you can.

And so sometimes it's even recognizing that, wow, you know, we really need to have somebody that we need, we need to expand this team. So, we've got more of the talent or more of the terrorisms that we're looking for. And it's, it's even praying for the Lord to send you those people. Or let's, you know, like anoint those people like that, that might even be the first step.

[01:01:09] Jim Jansen: Yeah, absolutely. And that's another, you know, some of these things start to overlay with each other. But what is fun is when you get people, you know, let's say, okay, they're aware of their, their temperament, maybe a charism. They. Then they've got this, this kind of like the thresholds, they see this, this process that people typically go through in conversion and discipleship, and they can start to recognize the patterns like, man, it seems like the Lord really loves to use, use me, uh, true story.

Uh, right. This is a friend, friend of mine. She's a real estate agent. She sang when the Lord loves to use her at the very beginning of the journey. I mean, she, she joked. It's like, it's like, I have this sign in my forehead that says, you know, please tell me, you know, your deepest darkest secrets. And, and like, she just instantly wins trust with people.

And she's so gifted at doing that. But she's like, I can't wait. Don't work for the church and I love the church, but I'm not the girl you want explaining the finer details of theology to people. She recognizes because of both like temperaments and these thresholds. Hey, this is where the Lord likes to use me.

And so, she, she makes herself available there and she doesn't have any insecurity. About trying to or any false pretending trying to be something that she's not she she evangelizes in community And so she's able to then bring people and bridge relationships to those who have gifts that complement her own 

[01:02:41] Matt Ingold: That's just so beautiful I mean the way that the lord has designed the body of Christ to actually need All the members of the body of Christ that was actually just this last weekend I was sitting down with one of our our coaches our certified coaches is um, her and her husband came into town It's great when you have an online Business online community to actually meet people in real life.

It's been like share a meal with them. And so he, she was cleric melancholic. He was super sanguine and he was describing how he one of his where the Lord puts him again and again. His name is bill is. Is inviting people to the Curcio weekends. And the way that Curcio is set up is like you invite somebody and then you sponsor somebody.

But his real charism is the invitation, the bold invitation. Yes. Good. Whoa. But yeah, and there's so many people that they're like, I would love to just walk with somebody, but please don't make me invite somebody. Please don't make me. And so we talked about it was like, what would it be like if you just started to kind of like be the guy that invited people, but then you kind of pass them off to somebody that really had that gift of shepherding a walking with somebody goes, you know, funny you mentioned that we're actually the first time we're doing this, but me and a friend are actually co-sponsoring somebody that's going through this.

And it's just like, yeah. That whole thing is just allowing him to create some space for him to really live in that gift where he has just like a supernatural fecundity and fruitfulness in his, in his mission. 

[01:04:09] Jim Jansen: I mean, that's one of the benefits of what a clear path does is that when you get these contexts, these ministries in place.

People who are gifted like made by the Lord to serve in that way tend to gravitate to those spaces and then they're, they're joyfully able to help people grow and mature into the next, like, kind of like season, the next step on the clear path and it just like the, the sense of unity that you get again, sometimes we think that like simple uniformity.

Provides, uh, you know, unity and, and there's a, I think maybe a superficial unity that you get where everybody's the same, but I think the really profound unity you see is when you see like a, again, athletic, right? Like a football team of like, great diversity and, and then there's this, this goal and this prize and some challenge along the way, man, like.

You can see that in, in parishes and mission organizations that have rediscovered their missionary identity, where they've got people who are gifted as teachers and people who are gifted as inviters and people that are like their administrators and everybody's like, Oh, dear God, please don't make me work on the spreadsheet and other people like spreadsheets are my love language, you know, and just like to like to see all those people working together to save souls.

It's really, really fun. 

[01:05:33] Matt Ingold: Love it. Jim, this has been like fantastic. It gets me excited. I mean, anytime I see somebody else that's doing something and what the, what their unique mission is, and you know, and this is going to sound kind of selfish, but like, it just reflects back to me what God's invited me to do, because it's different.

And it's, it's, there's something about living in your gift that starts to help. And being in relationship with other people here and laboring in the vineyard together where you start to really come to understand your place in and where you belong in the whole, you know, kingdom building endeavor here that our church is on.

And it's, it's, it's incredibly affirming. I know that here at Metanoia Catholic. Especially when it comes to temperaments and helping people to understand their unique design, the gifts that God has given to them. That is our absolute bread and butter. You know, we love coming in and doing workshops for teams.

We love being able to, to, to equip you with coaches that can be in your team and in your organization and, and just with, with the skills and that, that temperaments language to be able to do these things in house. We have a vision here of having like a temperaments coach or one of our mindset coaches in every single parish or available to every single parish, because like you said, like, just helping people to begin that journey of self-awareness and recognizing the gift that they are through the language of these assessments.

Oh, my goodness. It's just it's dynamite. Love it. Love it. Love it. 

[01:06:54] Jim Jansen: Well, thanks, man. Thanks for what you guys are doing. It's been really, really fun. You know, even before we turn on the mics, we're like, oh, man, that just, you know, so many overlaps friends, friends that we know, I didn't know that you knew the rosters.

So they're just like, yeah, common friends. And then journeys, you know, just the, the, the power of temperaments, the assessments, coaching, I really appreciate what you guys are doing. 

[01:07:16] Matt Ingold: No, we can hang out. We can hang out, man, and have a beer, have a coffee, whatever your flavor is. 

[01:07:20] Jim Jansen: How about this? We'll come to Nebraska in the fall, but, uh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't mind a February trip to Florida.

[01:07:27] Matt Ingold: Well, there's something we, Jim, I'll tell you this. Is there something that we, that we've started to do? It's turning into a little bit more of an annual thing where we're, we're kind of convening just, just people that are, that are doing some of this work and, you know, particularly in a human formation field or in the coaching field.

So, second time that we did it. And it's, it's a super powerful. We just came together and prayed and it was so powerful just, just speaking as a, as a, as a group of people we had, you know, Dr. Jerry Crete came in and Jim Beckman and Matt Rudolph and, uh, just some, I'm not going to name everybody because there's just so many awesome people that were there.

It was a so fun to build relationship and and again that that relationship that starts to reveal identity what relationship identity mission even being in relationship with these other players helps us understand our apostolic identity right as different apostolates and then what our mission field is and what it isn't right?

Because. Jim's got that covered or Matt's got that covered or something. 

[01:08:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[01:08:25] Matt Ingold: Yeah, cool. Plug one more time here for ClearPath. Where, where, where can they find this? Where can everybody find this? 

[01:08:31] Jim Jansen: Uh, it's, it's on Amazon, um, but you can find it at clearpathbook.com. And yeah, there's some other free resources there and that'll give you a link.

Uh, and if anybody's, you know, if they're like, okay, we want to lean into this. We can give you a bulk discount for orders of 10 or more. So, all the contact information is on the website. They're clear path book. com. 

[01:08:52] Matt Ingold: Awesome. And if you're excited about temperament, you can just find that on our free resources here at metanoiacatholic.com as well, or catholiccoaching.com. Nobody knows how to spell metanoia. Thank you so much, man. I had Greek names. We thought we were being clever and it's like, Oh my goodness, it's terrible. Oops. Yeah. But thank you so much, Jim, for, for taking the extra time here. I could go another two hours with this. We won't do that, but this is just, this is a joy, man.

Thanks. It's, it's joy being a laborer in the vineyard here with you. 

[01:09:21] Jim Jansen: Thank you, Matt. Yeah. I've had fun too. Really appreciate it. 

[01:09:24] Matt Ingold: God bless. 

[01:09:26] Jim Jansen: Thanks for listening to the EquipCast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip.archomaha.org. God bless and see you next time.