[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. So today I sit down with Max Chapman and Jeremiah Zimmerman of the More Mely Apostolate. More Mercy is dedicated to ecumenical conversations, to starting fruitful conversations of dialogue between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians. It is, uh, so cool to hear them talk about their, their work that they talk about.

Maybe the counterintuitive effect that when you engage in conversation from, with someone from a different religious tradition, how it often draws you back and deepens your love for your own tradition. Talk about just the fruit that they've seen, how they connect ordinary, everyday, individual missionary disciples into the work of e humanism.

Uh, the joy, the fruit. It is how to get started. We talk a little bit of practical, you know, it's not, not really a technical conversation. How the secret is just to get started and really the beautiful fruit of unity that comes when we take our Lord's desire and prayer for unity. Seriously. Uh, the church's call for Unity, seriously, it's a really fun conversation.

You're gonna appreciate it. So take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

Max Chapman, Jeremiah Zimmerman, welcome to the EquipCast. How you doing gentlemen? 

[00:01:40] Max Chapman: I'm doing great.

[00:01:41] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Wonderful. Thanks for having us. 

[00:01:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah, super excited. So Max, you and I have known each other for, I mean, off and on. I don't know. It's been a while now. Has it been almost 10 years?

[00:01:52] Max Chapman: Almost.

[00:01:52] Jim Jansen: When did you first... 

[00:01:53] Max Chapman: yep. Yeah, so I moved to Nebraska in the summer of 2016 and you were actually the first person to give me a tour of the St. Thomas Aquinas Catholic Church, Newman Center at the University of Nebraska Lincoln. First time I stepped foot in that church, met the, your bright, smiling face and said, Hey, do you know what the all the architecture means in this place?

I said, no, you walked glass. You showed me how Jesus there on the cross is the, the gate to heaven in that giant stained glass window. Largest one west of the Mississippi was, you know?

[00:02:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:02:22] Max Chapman: How Jesus is the gate to heaven. And I was like, wow, this is, this is my boss. Cool. This is great. 

[00:02:27] Jim Jansen: That's funny. I had forgotten a about that max.

And there is some, there's some backstory. To why you might have been hesitant to set foot, um, not so much the Newman Center, but just, you know, on, on the University of Nebraska campus. Anyway, max, why don't you get us started here. Tell a, tell people a little bit about your story and, and your background.

[00:02:50] Max Chapman: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida. Went to the same school that Tim Tebow actually played football at. So for those football lovers out there, uh, Tim Tebow, he didn't just, you know, come outta the womb winning Heisman trophies. He had to play high school football first. And, and so when I was in middle school, I watched Tim Tebow playing in high school football, myself and every other middle school boy wanted to be the next Tim Tebow.

And unfortunately it didn't work out for me, though. I tried out for quarterback. I got moved to third string on the freshman team defensive line. But after a number of years, um, you know, there was one big game coming up. I actually got to, you know, be on the, on the same field that Tim Tebow once played for on the varsity team. And. 

[00:03:24] Jim Jansen: Do you have like a little sample of grass that you capture or something? 

[00:03:27] Max Chapman: No, no. That probably would've helped, but no, I didn't, didn't have that. So I, I, you know, I became kind of a meathead and later on in high school I was like, okay, I've lifted weights. I know the game plan. If there's a God, I want him to be on my side.

And so I, before this big game, I went into the chapel at my home parish. I didn't know if you were even allowed to go into a church to pray at that point, you know, I was like, can mass isn't going on? Is the church gonna be locked? I don't know. The doors were open. You know, my heart was pounding. Didn't know if I was trespassing or not, but I, I got on my knees and I prayed, Lord, if you're real, please let me do something good in sports for once in my life.

And then the next day, I tied my school, single game sack record, had five sacks in a game, and it kind of put me on the mat for college recruiting. So you better believe every Thursday before Friday high school going into church. And I was gonna pray, and that tradition carried on. So I, I left Jacksonville to go to Northwestern University just outside of Chicago.

And every Friday before a Saturday college football game, I would go into a church and I would pray it was my pregame routine and my, mm-hmm my red shirt freshman year. I went into the chapel to pray and I met a man named Derek and he worked for a group called Focus Fellowship of Catholic University students.

I also, uh, put someone in my phone that day. His name was Andy Shield Guy, 'cause he was from the Shield Catholic Center and it turns out to be Andy Deca. You know who I know. 

[00:04:41] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. 

[00:04:42] Max Chapman: I was sum up. My time in college really is, um, kinda like the road to Emmaus story where Jesus, he walks along those disciples and he opens the scriptures to them, but their eyes are prevented from recognizing him.

Uh, when I first met Derek, you know, I was there for my pre-game routine. I wasn't really interested in a relationship, but he just threw walking with me and kind of asking me, what are you doing here? How, how is it that you pray before games? Have you ever tried praying with scripture? You know, he kind of gradually opened up the scriptures to me and there was that kind of burning in my heart where I knew that there was something more going on here.

And eventually he invited me to a focus conference and that was the first time that I can remember ever experiencing Eucharistic adoration, being able to see. The, the Lord there, that's a sacrament. It was like the, the road to Emmaus, how Jesus, when he stayed with them, he took the bread, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to them, and their, their eyes were open and they recognized him.

And so scripture and sacraments kind of became, you know, really central to my time in college. And eventually after, you know, years of being involved in Focus Bible studies, that was when I accepted the invitation to, you know, be a focus missionary myself and through the discernment process that you might have actually been involved in, you know, be placed at the University of Nebraska Lincoln.

And that was kind of what brought me to the Good Life in the first place. 

[00:05:51] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Which was, again, in case anybody missed it, kind of hard as a, you know, former Northwestern player, we won't go go into it, but you were on the field. For some very epic Yeah. Nebraska, Northwestern Games. Yeah. And, you know, and out of politeness and hu humility, most Nebraska fans were like, okay, okay, good.

Like we're don't necessarily wanna talk about football. 'cause it's, it's more painful than it's been when I was a, when I was a child. But That's awesome. Yeah. All jerem Jeremiah top that what's, what what, what's your story? Oh, I can't top that. You can, for the Hail Mary again, tell about your, your season, single season uh, sack record.

[00:06:34] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Did not have that played flag football. Maybe two years when I was like six and seven years old. But yeah, so I was, um, born and raised in Lincoln, Nebraska. I was part of the homeschool community growing up. Uh, I went part-time to Lincoln East High School to play baseball 'cause baseball was kind of a thing in my family.

Uh, my, my grandpa played, uh, minor league ball for the Cardinals way back in the day. So I was just always kind of been a baseball family. 

[00:07:00] Jim Jansen: Nice. 

[00:07:01] Jeremiah Zimmerman: And so, uh, I was baptized in the LCMS Lutheran, uh, church. I grew up not going to lu the Lutheran church. I was actually part of the Assemblies of God Pentecostal communities growing up.

And I got a small, uh, college scholarship offer to play at Dakota State University, uh, to play baseball for them, which is in Madison, South Dakota. Small, small little town. A little northwest is Sioux Falls. And my first season there was the COVID season my freshman.

[00:07:36] Jim Jansen: No. 

[00:07:37] Jeremiah Zimmerman: And there were different things going on in my life at the time that made me question.

Things that were going on in the world. Yeah. I just did a deep dive into the only place that I, I knew where to go, which was the scriptures. 'cause there were a lot of things, uh, going on in the world that I, I just had an intuition that I couldn't follow, but I, I couldn't really explain why. And so I did a deep dive into the scriptures and, um, became very acquainted with a few different reformed Baptist preachers, uh, on the, uh, on YouTube.

And I mean, of course, right? Yeah, of course. That's, that's where everybody goes. When you're locked down, chatting your house, you just kinda scroll online a little bit. And I became, uh, enthralled with the reformed tradition within Protestantism, uh, because it gave me structure and substance that I, I don't recall ever having in kind of the, the communities that I was growing up in.

Hmm. I became very just on fire for Christ through that. The, the next season up at Dakota State, I was leading a bible study that started with teammates and kind of turned into any, any student that wanted to come. And I had different friends and pastors ask if I had, if I was interested in, in going into ministry.

[00:09:01] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:02] Jeremiah Zimmerman: So long story short, after my second season at Dakota State, I hung up the cleats as much as I loved baseball and transferred to a school in Kansas City called Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Not a mouthful at all. 

[00:09:19] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:09:20] Jeremiah Zimmerman: And while I was there, uh, I started reading, uh, entire works of the early church fathers, the Apostolic fathers, the patron.

[00:09:28] Jim Jansen: Oh, there we go. That's what I was looking at. I'm like, I'm like, there's a pivot point coming here. Yes, yes. Alright, keep, keep going. 'cause I'm like, I'm like, man, like Jeremiah is not. Even close to starting a Catholic apostolate yet, or hanging out with, hanging out with Max where it's like, there it is. All right.

So talk about the fathers. What'd they do? 

[00:09:46] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Yeah. Well, they lived faithfully, but um, yeah, I, I was reading men who knew the apostles or men who knew men, who knew the apostles. I just noticed Catholic distinctives in these men who received the deposit of faith. And so I was deep diving into all kinds of, yeah.

Catholic distinctives, the sacraments, the canon of scripture, what salvation even means for us Saal succession. You named the distinctive, I was deep diving into it. 

[00:10:17] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:10:18] Jeremiah Zimmerman: That didn't immediately mean, okay, I need to become Catholic because the Eastern Orthodox also share a lot of the same claims that the Catholic church does.

And yeah, that, that was a very difficult season because. There are very good arguments kind of on all sides of the equation. And it mm-hmm. Very much started as an intellectual journey. Um, and the more and more that I deep dived, uh, into all the arguments, the more I had that conversion of heart. Like, God, God is a good father.

He's not going to lead me astray if I'm, if I'm faithfully seeking after him. Mm-hmm. And so, um, the long story short with that is that. I ended up coming back to Lincoln after my time at Midwestern starting catechesis in the Lincoln diocese, which I didn't realize, um, how amazing the Lincoln diocese was as a non-Catholic.

[00:11:05] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:07] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Um, but I came back, started catechesis to be received in the church and I was receiving into the Catholic Church East Year of 2023. Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out what to do for, for work because I was training to become a Baptist pastor. 

[00:11:20] Jim Jansen: Which is like, there's some Yeah. Translation there. It's like, okay. So. 

[00:11:24] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Yeah. 

[00:11:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's awesome. How'd you guys get connected then? 

[00:11:27] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Right, and I'm, I'm about there. I'm, I'm there. You, I hung out a lot at the UNL Newman Center 'cause I was, yes. I decided to finish my theology degree at a online Catholic school. Um, it was then Catholic. Mm-hmm. University now Catholic International University.

And so I spent a lot of time at the Newman Center. Meeting folks because I never saw my classmates 'cause they were online. Right. And so when I was at the Newman Center, that's how I got connected with Max. He was leading a class at the Newman Institute and uh, he knew, you know, a bunch of my friends and him and I became close.

I wouldn't say super close, but we were kind of close. Mm-hmm. And at one point, max had let me know that he was leaving focus to found this apostate called More Mercy, this ecumenical ministry. And I was like, Hmm. An ecumenical ministry. Well, I was baptized Lutheran, raised Pentecostal, went to a Southern Baptist seminary, almost became Eastern Orthodox and became Catholic instead.

And I felt like maybe the Lord was leading me. Um, went to the ministry. 

[00:12:25] Jim Jansen: Now it's like the, those are all of the check boxes on our application. 

[00:12:29] Jeremiah Zimmerman: After I graduated, uh, in May of 2024, I hopped on the staff at More Mercy and here we are. 

[00:12:35] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. Alright, max, give us a little bit, like, kind of take us back, you know, you told a little bit of your story, but how did.

How did more mercy get started? What, what, what did the Lord, uh, do inside you that that led to this, uh, apostolate? 

[00:12:50] Max Chapman: So it was while I was a focused missionary, probably I think the spring of 2019, I was praying with John chapter 17, and in John chapter 17, it's referred to as Jesus' high priestly prayer.

It's his longest recorded prayer in the scriptures, and he prays for himself. He prays for the 12 apostles, and then he prays after praying for the 12. He says, I pray not only for them, but for everyone who believes in me through their message that they may be one as you and I father are one. And at that point in my life, I just was captured by the beauty of that prayer.

I mean, just this is a prayer between Jesus and the Father, and he's praying that for everyone who believes in him. They would be as one as him and the father. I mean, God willing, for all of eternity we're going to be pondering and participating in the oneness of Jesus and the Father. But the thing that was perplexing about it was that he said that they would be one, as you and I father are one, so that the world may know that you sent me, that it was something that would be visible and compelling to the world, that non would want to be convinced of the truth of the gospel message because of the unity and the oneness that they see of Christ's followers.

Mm-hmm. Now, at that point in time, I was a focused missionary leading Bible studies at the University of Nebraska Lincoln, primarily with the student athlete community. And you know, with my past experience as a student athlete, there are a lot of people that were involved in our bible studies that were Christian, but were from different faith traditions, different denominational backgrounds.

And so I'm, I'm having this, this. Heartache for unity of like, what would that look like? What would this visible unity look like? But then the lived reality of, you know, when a difference of doctrine comes up in Bible study and somebody gets upset or, or, or you know, there's, you kind of like step on a theological mind field that you didn't realize, you know what, there are people that have strong convictions and you don't necessarily know what they are.

Or, you know, if I were to invite someone to mass and they weren't Catholic, I'd have to explain to them why they weren't able to receive communion or vice versa. If I was invited somewhere and there was a communion, like there would just be moments you'd feel the state of of division. And it really, it kind of came to as I was, I was praying with this in the fall.

Then, um, you know, at the beginning of the, the school year, they often will have times for all the different campus ministries to have a booth on campus as there's thousands of students walking by and there are about 30 different Christian ministries at the University of Nebraska Lincoln, and you can imagine 30 different booths.

We're all kind of in the same section and we're all saying to people, come to my church, come to my church, sign up for a Bible study, you know, handing out free stuff. And, and as that was happening. That, that refrain from John 17 kept playing over in my mind. That, that they may be once, so that the world may know and, and it started to hit me like, what kind of witness are we giving to the world as they look at all us who are claiming the name of Christ?

Because if I'm being honest, as I'm looking around at the faces of all these different ministries, you know, crew navigators, reform, university Fellowship, Rossio Christi, I mean, there, there's lots of them. I didn't know the names of any of the people that worked there, you know? Mm-hmm. Best, yeah. Best case scenario, we're well-intentioned Christians who just don't know each other.

But worst case scenario, we're giving this public image of being in direct competition with one another, and we're all trying to preach this message of reconciliation, and yet we somehow can't be reconciled to one another. So that was kind of the, the, the ache that was, was starting and, and I came across at that time.

A quote by John Paul ii where he says that the movement towards full communion among Christians is a dialogue of truth fostered and sustained by a dialogue of love. And I thought, wow, that's, that's really, that's a great, great quote. It was specific enough, but it was vague enough that it can Yeah.

Looked different. And so the thing the Lord was, you know, putting on my heart at the time, I remember praying with Luke, Luke, chapter five, verses one through 11, the whole put out into the deep and lower your nets for a catch. And that invitation to put out into the deep was to, you know, reach out to some of these staff members of different Christian ministries.

Don't be afraid, just 'cause they're a staff member. Like, you know, we, we want that visible unity. We, we, we desire that with everyone and don't be afraid to start these relationships. And so I started thinking, okay, truth and love, you know, I, I wanna try to have a truth and a love touchpoint with the staff members of these different Christian ministries.

And, and it was beautiful. I mean, it was just so. Life giving, the friendships that began to have, and you know, we would start having these truth seeking conversations that weren't necessarily combative. It was, it wasn't a me versus you, it was, we are partners in the common pursuit of truth. And we were able to ask each other questions and clear up misconceptions.

And, and I, I had, um, some people we started meeting like every other week, you know, and we were talking about different things that they had questions about the Catholic church. I think we might have been talking about Sola scriptura or something. And I remember this one, one of the campus pastors, he said to me, max, I gotta say these conversations are saving me thousands of dollars of going back to seminary because like, you know, so much now.

And the same thing is true. Like we, they would ask questions like, why do you guys do that as a Catholic? Like, man, I don't really know. And I find myself, you know, reading scripture, reading the catechism of the Catholic church, understanding more. And, and a lot of my non-Catholic friends were helping me to grow and understanding we were helping one another grow in the understanding of our own faith traditions.

And we were becoming more equipped to actually lead. Bible studies according to our own traditions. 

[00:17:48] Jim Jansen: And so, right. It was, it was actually helping. It's like, Hey, this is good for my day job too. 

[00:17:52] Max Chapman: Exactly. So it was very Ed. Yeah. Truth seeking conversations, but also love as well. It's, it's truth and love. And so there were some groups that we, you know, we, we'd get, we'd go to the grocery store, we'd make little, we know meals together and we'd walk around downtown Lincoln and we'd provide some food to homeless people and we'd have conversations with them, prayed with them.

We'd play pickup basketball together. We just started having meals with one another and just in the context of a real friendship, these truth and love conversations were, or relationships were, were beautiful. And so as that was happening my last few years of being a focus missionary, what kind of happened organically was many of the.

Staff members of these campus ministries began saying, Hey, I have a pastor I'd like for you to meet, or, that's a good question. I'd love for you to meet my mentor. Or, here are these mm-hmm. Are kind of beyond the college campus. More at a diocesan level while I'm meeting these people beyond the college campus.

I was also finishing up a master's at the Augustine Institute, and for my final class, I did an independent study on the Catholic church's teachings on ecumenism, the movement towards unity for Christian. So ecumenism for those. I mean, I was, I was doing the, I was doing the unity towards Christian thing for a while, and I didn't know that that was ecumenism, but Yeah, ecu, yeah, ecu, yeah.

[00:18:57] Jim Jansen: Define it for, yeah, because that's a nerdy, right? Yeah. Very churchy word. Yes. Like ordinary. What, what is it? What is the humanism? What you mean? 

[00:19:04] Max Chapman: Humanism is the fancy word for the movement towards unity among Christians. So I think even at the, the, the origin of the word like KO is, you know, for like house in Greek.

So it's like, how does God like father his household, the household of faith, and so if there's division Yeah. Within the household, it's like we're moving towards unity. Humanism is that movement towards unity. And so I, I did that independent study on the Catholic church's teachings on that and just came across so many awesome documents.

I mean, the church has such rich teachings on how to mm-hmm. Towards unity. I mean, the Tatis read into gra, it's the decree on e humanism from the second Vatican Council. It's absolutely beautiful. There's a, a document called the directory for the applications and principles and norms of ecumenism. So if you wanna know how to apply all the, the norms taught, you know, the, the church has a, a great, you know, directory for you.

But it would start highlighting these things about how, you know, within every diocese there should be these local dialogues of truth and love taking place between Catholic parishes and the non-Catholic Christian communities within their neighborhoods or their parish boundaries. And all the Catholic Faithful are called to take an active and intelligent part.

And as I'm reading these documents and I'm studying, I just, my heart was just being lit on fire. You know, in the midst of my one like main assignment for this class was what were like the key Catholic principles of ecumenism. What's, you know, our assessment of the ecumenical movement as a whole. Like where are we?

And then what is my kind of proposal for an apostolate? For what, what, what would be something repeatable within any diocese that could help an ordinary Catholic parish move towards unity with the non-Catholic Christians within their neighborhoods, within their parish boundaries. And as I was writing that, the Lord just was, you know, bringing up very clearly on my heart.

I was, I remember praying with one Samuel and there was the, the part where. There's the speak Lord, your servant is listening. Samuel is told by Eli, the priest. Mm-hmm. Servant is listening. I remember I was in holy hour and I paused and I said, speak Lord, your servant is listening. And, uh, oh, the thing that came up.

[00:21:01] Jim Jansen: I, I don't know what's coming next, but that's not a, that's not a safe thing to do.

[00:21:06] Max Chapman: The thing that came up in prayer was, I want you to leave focus and start a new apostolate. And I remember thinking like, was that me? Was that God, I don't know. You know? And, and I, I, yeah, the same, I've had the same spiritual director for, you know, almost 10 years now, and I, I brought it up to him in spiritual direction and, you know, he was like, you know, max, I've been listening to your prayer for years.

This seems consistent. I think you should reach out to your bishop. And so I reached out to Bishop Conley and then. I got together with him. It was a, a beautiful thing because he said, you know, max, this is really cool timing because earlier this month I was on Stu Kern's radio show Friendly Fire. So Stu Kerns is a, a Protestant mm-hmm.

In town. And, um, he was like, I was on his radio show and I've actually been praying about what would a, like, what would it look like for us in the diocese to take a more like active step and, you know, reaching out to our Christian brothers and sisters. And then I just kind of come out of the blue saying, Hey, can I quit my job and start a new apostle at doing this exact thing?

So it just, that's awesome. The Holy Spirit was really, yeah. Doing a lot of things and putting the right people in the right place at the right time. And that was kind of the start of it. 

[00:22:01] Jim Jansen: I mean, there's so much, gosh, we want to dive, dive into here, but I just wanna go back to something that, that you said.

You know, as, as you're first experiencing, uh, the joy of like connecting with like non-Catholic Christians, particularly those in ministry, I think it's important, you know, that like, I, I always used to say, you know, like that, you know, just like there's no atheists in foxholes. There's no there, there's no denominations on college campuses, which of course that's not literally true 'cause there's all sorts of denominations, but there's a fellowship that develops really quickly when you, you're trying to save souls.

You recognize how many are slipping away and you're like, Hey man, this person, like, they, they love Jesus, they love the scriptures. I found very quickly that my non-Catholic ministry peers would be like, Hey, hey, there's this Catholic kid, you should go get him. Like, he's not interested in us, but like he needs the gospel.

And it was just this like really beautiful. I mean, it was say, it was, it was disorienting. I'm curious. What did you learn from your non-Catholic kind of ministry friends? I mean, the experience was joyful. We've talked about this, it's like, but what, what'd you learn from them? 

[00:23:18] Max Chapman: Yeah, I mean, honestly, my, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll share what I learned, but I do wanna share kind of a funny story of just like the solidarity of being in the foxhole kind of example.

Because yeah, as you were talking, a story came to mind where there was one of the guys that I had started meeting with, he wanted me once a week for coffee. I was like, okay, that sounds great. You know, we, we get together and we're sharing, you know, we're asking questions and getting to know one another, and then we're in this coffee shop and a student walks in.

We both kinda like stood up straight, oh, hey. And we had this, this moment where we both like kind of interacted with the same student, and then when the student walks away, like we had talked with him for a minute and then he walked away and he, he leans over and says, man, that student came to my Bible study like for a few months.

Then he's been ghosting me ever since. And I was like, wait. That guy came to my Bible study also, and he also hasn't been responding to me for months now. We had both been rejected by the same student, and we had this shared solidarity. That's awesome. The same person even had rejected us. So I mean, it wasn't, I don't know, but I, I think, yeah.

Yeah, there's just, that's so cool. A lot of shared experiences and like, you know, what it's like to be turned down, you know, what it's like to, to, you know, support, raise your salary. You have a lot of just like solidarity and like the way of life that you're living and, you know, trying to raise kids and whatnot.

But I think one of the things that has been most, that over the years that I think I've learned the most is just a heart for mission. I mean, just a really deep, deep love for mission and a zeal for souls. And, you know, the phrase that's used a lot that I hear will be like, unreached people groups. You know that, that there are, there are people who have not yet heard the gospel.

They are unreached and we need to get the gospel to them. If I was in the, you know, the narthex of a Catholic parish and I heard somebody talking about unreached people groups, like, I don't know if I would think first that they were a Catholic parishioner. You know that? Mm-hmm. Not like as normal of language of, hey, there's this neighborhood.

I don't think they're like really engaged, like how can we bring the gospel to them? I love when I see people that are filled with zeal like that, and. You know, one, one last quick story. There was a, a, a campus ministry who had been growing, I mean, tremendously fast. I mean, they, they can't even really fit in their building.

They've been renting out a, a, a space in town to have these like really large group gatherings. And so one of their pastors sent me a message of their first meeting and I said, wow, congratulations. You know, you can just see this like standing room only of, of college students. And I sent that to the, the focus missionary team, and they're like, man, how are they doing that?

Like, what are they doing? And I, I remember I said, I think my hunch is that they take the gospel really seriously. And then I met up with one of their, with one of their leaders. I said, Hey, congrats. That looked like, you know, an awesome first night. Like, I'm just curious like. What are you guys doing? Like, what is it?

And he says, well, you know, we take the gospel really seriously. Like we wanna make sure whenever we have a group we don't know if we're ever gonna see them against, we make sure we share the gospel with them. And I'm like, man.

[00:25:57] Jim Jansen: Yes.

[00:25:57] Max Chapman: That's awesome.

[00:25:58] Jim Jansen: It's, that's, that's so good. Yeah.

[00:26:00] Max Chapman: It's challenging for me as a Catholic to hear that. And, and, and I know that the Catholic church, you know, we're not shy about meeting the gospel and, and going to the far lands, but in, in our day-to-day life, it's, it's challenging when you meet people that are filled with so much zeal and love. 

[00:26:13] Jim Jansen: Well, and I mean, yeah, I had a very similar experience and I would say, I mean, this is kind of a, a funny way to put it, but most of us, even those of us who have been Catholic all our life, professional missionaries, when you start to read what the church is calling us to the, that like, kind of in her purest form, you know, the ideal.

That the Lord sets before us through kind of magisterial writings and teachings. We're like, I'm actually not that good of a Catholic. Like my right, my zeal for souls, my, you know, my love for mission, my vision for bringing all the nations, you know, to the Lord, making disciples. I am regularly inspired and challenged by, you know, my non-Catholic ministry friends who just have that passion, they have that zeal and I'm like, man, I think you might be, at least in this regard, a better Catholic than I am.

Like you're, you're living out the call to mission in a really beautiful, inspiring way. Jeremiah, I wanna set, set you up here. 'cause again, like. Don't take this the wrong way, but you're clearly a nerd. Um, you've been like, right, like reading, like all the stuff here. 

[00:27:21] Jeremiah Zimmerman: No, I'll say no offense taken. I'll even say thank you actually.

[00:27:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah, no, no, totally right. And like, yeah, okay. Like, yeah, I was kind of converted by reading the church fathers. That's pretty much everybody's story. No, I I mean it is a lot of people's story, but I wanna give you a chance, 'cause you probably came in with fresh eyes. What does the church actually teach about ecumenism and evangelization?

Because you, you now have this kind of inside outside perspective. You know, you're in seminary, you're, you know, obviously a bright man. You're studying kind of open up, we could talk about this for forever. So let's, let's not get lost here, but what does the church actually say about ecumenism and evangelization?

[00:28:01] Jeremiah Zimmerman: So I think the first thing is that evangelization and ecumenism. I believe it's the, the dec Creon ecumenism that has this, this line. And there's a, there's a very fine line that we're walking as an ecumenical ministry because, um, evangelization and ecumenism are distinct and yet not opposed to one another.

Uh, the actual end goal of ecumenism is, uh, full communion in faith, sacraments in a hierarchy. And it makes sense because Christ was a priest, a prophet, and a king. Um, the mystical body of Christ functions the same way he is. We aspire to be one in our faith, in her teaching, in her sacraments and her worship, and her governance and her hierarchy.

[00:28:48] Jim Jansen: And just, if I can pause you there for a moment, at a super practical level, it's like, yeah, it's not enough that we agree. On most of the stuff. Mm-hmm. It's like, no, like we actually kind of have to agree on like who's in charge, which I would imagine that last point, the kind of the structural, the, you know, the, the kind of kingly office that, that Christ is entrusted to his church.

That's where the rubber hits the road. Yes. It's like, great. We're, you know, it's like, oh, that means we were talking and we were all friends, but now, now you're my boss. Now Bishop so-and-so is like, oh wow. And just like obedience and like hierarchy and visible unity. That that's where it can be really challenging.

[00:29:32] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Yes.

[00:29:33] Jim Jansen: Uh, for people. 

[00:29:34] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Yes. It is really challenging. We have, and, and honestly that's kind of why this ministry exists, because we want to create. Spaces where we can, we can lovingly acknowledge each other as brothers and sisters in Christ and have those hard conversations. You know, we actually grow authentic friendships with one another, where we trust one another and we also want to create spaces where we can be in the same room and disagree and stay in the same room and, you know.

[00:30:04] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:04] Jeremiah Zimmerman: You don't talk it out. The, the church actually has, um, real life examples of this happening. For example, the Anglican Aria. Jim, have you heard of the Anglican Ordinary? 

[00:30:15] Jim Jansen: Yes. Actually, we, we have one here in Omaha. This is St. Barbara. Uh, father Hildorf, he and I are just becoming friends, uh, hanging out and talking.

Beautiful story. So I'll let you, so yes, I'm familiar with it. 

[00:30:25] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Yeah. 

[00:30:26] Jim Jansen: Give the thumbnail sketch for people.

[00:30:27] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Yeah. In, in 2013, uh, under, uh, PO Pope Benedict the 16th, there were about, man, I actually don't know the exact number, but I think it was about 40, uh, different parishes. Who were part of one of the Anglican communities who came into full communion and faith sacraments and hierarchy with the Catholic church, and yet they were allowed to retain the, the parts of their pa English patrimony, that's mm-hmm.

Reflected authentic Christianity, authentic catholicity, and that's kind of right up there with what we're doing day to day. You know, we, we want to, you know, max uses this line a lot of, we're not more Catholic just because we keep our eyes fixed on the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church, but there are real elements of the, the true, authentic Christian faith outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic church.

That's, uh, you know, the ordinary is a good example there. There's parts of their English patrimony, and likewise, when we're mm-hmm. Into different pastors and ministry leaders. Like, we want to look at the, the, the aspects of their tradition that are authentic to us as well, that maybe we've lost, um, over time or maybe we don't emphasize as much, but. 

[00:31:36] Jim Jansen: Well, and, and, you know, in a similar way.

I'm reminded of, so again, most Catholics are part of the Roman Catholic Church. Right, right. Where okay. We, you know, we would kinda, our liturgical flavor, our, many of our traditions have a very, again, it's like that Roman ethnic mm-hmm. Quality to it. But there, there are Ukrainian Catholics, there are Greek Catholics, there are, you know, Coptic, uh, Egyptian Catholic.

Like there are different Catholics that have had, they, they've been in communion with Rome, they've been in communion. But they have a different flavor, different devotional practices, some different liturgical practices. Again, all in community. And it's not quite the same thing as a, you know, non-Catholic community, like the Anglicans, you know, rejoining the Catholic church.

But I think we can say like, oh wait, there are other ethnicities and other ways of being Catholic. That maybe don't have the Roman feel that are just as legitimate and tend to, and tend to in many ways kind of, I don't know. For me, it tends to inspire and reinform why I do what I do as a Roman Catholic and helps broaden my picture of what it really means to be a disciple of Christ.

Right. And part of the church he founded. 

[00:32:55] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Right, right. I'm actually very, very much edified by the eastern traditions of the church. And you kind of mentioned them when you were talking about Koreans and the Greeks and Yeah. There's, there's a whole byzantine patrimony that's not Roman, but still authentically Catholic.

You know, I, I'm really good friends with a Ruthenian Catholic priest that I met when I was down in Kansas City at the, at the Baptist school. And the Ruthenian congregations came back into communion, full communion with Rome. They were actually out of communion with Rome and then they came back. Mm-hmm.

Communion with Roman. So this, this whole ecumenical. End goal is very, very much possible. It's, it's not something that's outlandish. And, um, you know, I I, I love what you just said because, um, pop Leo, uh, the 14th in, in one of his first addresses, I believe, was to the Eastern Christians. And he's like, keep doing what we, what you're doing.

It inspires us, us Romans, you know, us, us Western Christians to authentically hold to the yeah. Christian faith. 

[00:33:53] Jim Jansen: And it's almost like this, like, I think it matures our discernment to recognize the elements that are particularly, uh, an ethnic expression of our faith. Those things that are changeable and those things that are.

Universal and unchangeable, and it, you know, sometimes we confuse those things and getting exposure and having conversations. It, it, it sometimes helps to clarify those. And that's good because as we all increasingly live in a secular world, recognizing those kind of unchangeable elements of the apostolic faith, I, it feels like, oh, we need that in order to be able to sur survive.

[00:34:36] Max Chapman: Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that's actually what I was, uh, about to chime in with of just how practically. Helpful. Those boundaries are, I think, of what Jeremiah's alluding to with the unity and our faith, unity and our sacraments. Unity in the hierarchy of the pope and the bishops and commun communion with him.

But then also being able to affirm whatever is authentically Christian outside the visible boundaries. Like there's, I think, mm-hmm. It's one sentence from, uh, Lumen Gentium, section eight. So Lumen Gentium, the dogmatic Constitution on the church, and it says that the one Church of Christ subsist in the Catholic Church governed by the successor of Peter and the bishops in commun communion with him.

Although many elements of truth and sanctification exist outside the visible boundaries of the church and that mm-hmm. If you can, I think that's just been a really helpful thing for me as a Catholic of like, okay, how do I navigate this? Well, I mean, we, there's about 75 non-Catholic Christian communities that we interact with, whether it's once a week, once a month, every other week, and this is mm-hmm.

Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran Presbyterian, Methodist to evangelical, non-denominational Protestant. I mean, there, there's just a, a large spectrum of Christians that we interact with, and I feel like it, it's almost constantly a okay is, you know, is this opportunity, is this thing that's being said, is this prayer that's being prayed or whatnot?

Is there anything that is violating, you know, or is there real rupture with the faith or a rupture in our view of the sacraments, a rupture in hierarchical order. If not. 

[00:35:57] Jim Jansen: Or is it just different? 

[00:35:58] Max Chapman: Yeah. Is it just different? Yeah. And, and in a lot of cases, right, it doesn't check that, you know, it's, a lot of those cases you can see like, okay, if it doesn't break with one of those three visible signs of unity, then I, as a Catholic should allow my heart to be converted to whatever is authentic.

Like whatever that element is that I'm, I'm experiencing, I have total freedom as a Catholic to, to allow myself to be converted in my heart and try to imitate what is worthy of imitation outside the visible boundaries of the church. And 

[00:36:26] Jim Jansen: Yeah, and to, to praise it and affirm it and. 

[00:36:29] Max Chapman: Yeah. 

[00:36:29] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It's really, again, it's like a, it's like a form of, I dunno, like, like travel.

Tends to, you know, many of us this year pilgrimages for, for the, uh, the Jubilee of Hope travel, even if you're just going to a different parish to say nothing of a different country or experiencing, you know, worship and communion with other Catholics. It, it expands our hearts and our minds. Again, not in a way that weakens our commitment to our particular identity, but I find it strengthens.

I mean, you know, it's like a humanism only tends to draw me deeper into my own tradition and a recognition of the gift that I've been given, even if I can, not just, even if, especially because I can now see the gift in others. 

[00:37:18] Max Chapman: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:37:19] Jim Jansen: I, I wanna give you both a chance to, to talk about, you all take a very specific approach to developing these relationships.

You know, you're, you're in dialogue. You, you're. We've talked about this, you're trying to acknowledge like the, the real gifts, the, the unity that are already present. I just want you to kind of break open, like how do you approach a humanism? 

[00:37:42] Max Chapman: The first thing that comes to mind is John one 14 where it says that the, the word became flesh and dwelt among us full of grace and truth.

And just that, that incarnation element of. Walking in the front door. I mean, that's honestly how a lot, a lot of our relationship started with walking in the door of a Christian community that was not Catholic and walking in and saying, hi, my name's Max. This is Jeremiah. You know, is there a pastor that'd be willing to talk with us?

And you know, the, I don't know, I say it all, it all comes back down to that, that face-to-face wins the race. You know, the, yeah. Just stay in heaven and say, Hey, come on up here, please. You know, he, he entered into our world and in the same 

[00:38:20] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm. 

[00:38:21] Max Chapman: Desire to walk into the worlds of the people that we meet, and we wanna shake their hands and say, hi, it's nice to meet you.

I, I see value in you. You know, it's the whole. Kind of, yeah, three of, of one Corinthians 12 where he says, you know, the hand can't say to the foot, I have no need of you or the eye to the ear. I have no need of you. You know, our posture as Catholics when we approach other Christians is if you've been baptized with water in the name of the Father and of the son of the Holy Spirit, and then you have a real participation in that body. And so.

[00:38:49] Jim Jansen: Yeah, we're, we're brothers. 

[00:38:50] Max Chapman: Yeah. We cannot say to you, I have no need. So we are approaching them with this posture of. A really sincere interest of wanting to get to know you. We want to hear your story. A lot of times when we get together our first meeting, it's not, here's our big business plan of how we're gonna restore full visible unity among Christians.

Usually it starts with how, how did you come to know Jesus? You know, they'll share their stories and, and then we'll share our stories. And it's usually a very edifying experience. And, you know, again, a lot of commonality, a lot of realizing that the person that we're sitting with is also someone who has sacrificed tremendous amounts of their life to, you know, they've moved away from, from countries and family and friends to, to follow the gospel.

And I remember meeting with a pastor who's, you know, from a, a, a place in Africa that he wasn't able to go back because of visa problems. You know, he hasn't seen his family in years, but he's been doing this ministry here. And yeah, just when you, when you encounter men and women like that, that are devoting their lives to the Lord, it's, there's just a lot of common ground and a lot of friendship that, that sparks very easily.

And then, yeah, a lot of that is, is kind of the start of just the real friendship, but then it's. The hope is, again, it's not that Max and Jeremiah or whoever else is on our team would be the ones meeting with everybody, but we, we then started turning to the Catholic parishes that are within that neighborhood and saying, Hey, father so-and-so, or Hey, you know, Catholics that we know at this parish, we've made some friends that are with within your neighborhood, or actually in

[00:40:10] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm.

[00:40:11] Max Chapman: At the place across the street from you. You know, like, we're meeting with them. Yes, meeting with them on Tuesday. Would you like to join us? And now we're trying to play matchmaker with these Christian leaders of Catholic and non-Catholic Christian traditions that live in the same areas and we want to try to.

You know, that's been one of the most exciting things when we find out that some of the friends that we've introduced to each other are still meeting, you know, I, I, I called, uh, this one. That's awesome. One of my, my pastor friends and I was like, Hey, I'm in the area. What are you doing? He's like, oh, I'm not at the office right now.

He is like, but you'll love this. And he, you know, says, puts this other guy on the phone and he's like, uh, max, it's Brother Angelo from the Knights of the Holy Eucharist. And I was like, what are you doing? Meeting with some of the Knights of the Holy Eucharist, you know, they're like a religious community here in Lincoln.

I'm like, what are you doing? Hanging out with each other? This is awesome. You know, they, that's awesome. That's cool. That's her lunch thing that we hosted and they got connected and they've continued to meet and it's like, this is awesome. This is so cool. When you see that these relationships actually kind of taken off.

[00:41:02] Jim Jansen: Okay, so, well, I gotta ask that. So just like p really practical question here, because, you know, not, not me, but I have this friend who's sometimes skeptical and I can imagine my friend listening and being like, how does that even work? I mean, anybody who works at a parish, any ordinary Catholic who's kind of involved in their faith, they're probably up to their eyeballs in stuff to do.

They're trying to keep their parish running and afloat. And then Max and Jeremiah, they're like, Hey, do you wanna talk to your, you know, your, your non-Catholic church across the street? Uh, I, I know you've never set foot in their parking lot, but you guys should hang out. And, and, and I imagine like, no thanks, I just don't have time.

How does it, how does it go? I mean, some, but like, what's the, what are some of the, the challenges to fostering those connections? What are some of the joys, you know, that, that you've, you've seen? Because it almost, I mean, I have to say for my friend, it almost sounds unreal. They're like, yeah, we just, we walk in, we make friends, and then we introduce 'em to our other Catholic friends that, that, that, that are in the area.

[00:42:19] Max Chapman: No, that's great. Okay, so two things. Two things come to mind. One, I will say, well, ah, man. Okay. Two th three things. Uh, there's a lot of things that are coming up. There's like a whole, okay, five, but that's it, max. Okay, well, we'll set up the 500. When we were first meeting non-Catholic Christians and I said that I was Catholic and that more mercy is, you know, received the blessing from the bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Lincoln.

Jaws would hit the floor. They were shocked people. I remember being at one prayer gathering where they're like, wait, the Catholic Church, like Roman Catholic? And I said, yes. There were three people that slid me business cards. One of 'em whispered, I've been trying to get in touch with the Catholic church for years.

And I was like, whoa, what is that? There was almost this like pent up like disbelief that a Catholic was willing to meet with them. 

[00:43:03] Jim Jansen: Yes. I, I mean, I just have to say, and again, there's cultural differences in, you know, one diocese from another Catholics are much smaller percent of the population in Lincoln, so I think there's sometimes a little bit of a, uh, more of a, uh, okay, we're the small minority, but even in Omaha, I've gone to ecumenical gatherings and like my business card, which just says Right, archdiocese of Omaha, it has the vision one church encountering Jesus, equipping disciples, living mercy.

It was like, it was candy. Everybody wanted some 'cause they're like, really? Wow. Catholic cool evangelization. Wow. Jesus. And they were just like, it was like you could see their stereotypes just like melting away and their enthusiasm to like, Hey, could we get together? I have some questions. And it, it really is an astounding experience.

And I think it's contrary to maybe, I dunno, the whispers of the enemy or like false expectations that we have that like, oh, I'm gonna get together with a non-Catholic and they're just gonna grill me and ask me a bunch of tough questions and make fun of me and try and get me to leave the church. Mm-hmm.

And it's like, no, I was actually like, you know, if I was more insecure, I'd keep doing it just to be popular. 'cause people are like, Ooh, hey, have you met the Catholic? No, it's great. He loves Jesus. It's just very, it, it's not. Maybe what we might expect. 

[00:44:25] Max Chapman: No, I, I totally agree. And so I, I say that's my, my first point is that there's a amazing receptivity, and I, as the Catholic was like, oh, of course, we wanna talk to you.

Absolutely. Let me introduce you to so-and-so, you know, and then once I started approaching Catholics, that was an eyeopening experience for me of just the lack of bandwidth that people have. I don't think it's, it's necessarily a, you know, I don't think this is important. I don't want to, but what, yeah, like what you're saying, if there are any insecurities whatsoever of, you know, I'm, I'm nervous about entering into a relationship with someone who I know thinks differently than me. 

[00:44:56] Jim Jansen: Or, or I had a bad experience.

I mean, it is legit. There are a ton of people, so I don't wanna minimize anybody's experience. You're like, yeah. Uh. I'm glad that your Protestant friends were nice, but you know, I had a roommate who just regularly beat me over the head with his Bible. Not physically right, but I mean, hopefully not, but like, you know, but like, I was made to feel dumb because I was a Catholic.

I, you know, I, I had a bad encounter with, with someone who was trying to evangelize me, and I didn't feel respected as a person. I certainly didn't feel respected. So I just wanna acknowledge that that is a real experience. And it's, you know, sometimes a common experience depending on what part of the country you're from.

But we've had the, just the blissful, joyful experience of like, wow, they wanna have a conversation. There's a curiousness and an openness that is. It's beautiful. 

[00:45:51] Max Chapman: Yeah. You know, there is a reality. I mean, that, that is probably one of the, the biggest challenges of, you know, I'd say especially with staff at parishes, like whether it's a priest or other staff members, like there mm-hmm.

Priests do so much behind the scenes. They don't just preach on Sundays. 

[00:46:08] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It is not, yeah. Just for, for the record, fathers, we love you. We know it's not a, you know, one, one day on six days off. 

[00:46:15] Max Chapman: I mean, it is, uh, I'd say it's, it's one of the, the blessings of, I think doing more mercy of just being able to interact with more priests and get a glimpse at more of what their lives look like behind the scenes, because it, it really is tremendous, uh, bandwidth that they have.

But I will say something that we have done kind of in response to that is. There are a lot of well-formed Catholics that can and should be taking, you know, active steps in the work of ecumenism. I mean, there's tons of former Yes missionaries. There's tons of missionary disciples out there that are not paid staff members at a parish, but go to a parish.

You know, so it's, we, we actually have had a lot more success in, you know, who are the different parish leaders that are around when they find out about what more mercy is, they're eager to have these kinds of conversations. They're eager to have these kinds of relationships. There's, there is more openness.

And if we can

[00:46:59] Jim Jansen: y yes. If we can hope. Yeah. Let's, let's go there, max. I want to talk about that because, you know, before we turned on the mics, you know, we were talking about how the churches, and maybe you can reference this, the church is really explicit that this is not a professional's only endeavor.

That all the faithful are supposed to be engaging in evangelization and in ecumenism and. That is part of the solution to the bandwidth thing. I just wanna give you a chance to like expound a little bit on, on how the church teaches that. Maybe if there are some like, yeah, okay. There's just some basic requirements.

You gotta be a nice person, you should probably know and love your Catholic faith. But just like, I want you to expound on that and then talk about what kind of response you've seen as you've tried to mobilize just your ordinary lay faithful Catholic into this mission. 

[00:47:57] Jeremiah Zimmerman: It's a really good point and, and a good, good point that we're discussing because like Max had mentioned earlier, priests are busy, right? Like. 

[00:48:05] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:06] Jeremiah Zimmerman: People are just very, very busy. How more mercy actually functions is every diocese, uh, has an appointed ecumenical officer, which is mm-hmm. Kind of like a delegate of the bishop to do the ecumenical work and said diocese. And a lot of the times it's just a parish priest who also has this title.

Um, and you'll find out, okay, they're actually also like cleaning the toilets toilet parish and doing all the things that. 

[00:48:31] Jim Jansen: Yeah, they've already got a 90 hour work week. 

[00:48:33] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Right, right. Or could. Right. Yeah. So and so more mercy actually functions. We're, we're our own separate 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit, uh, distinct from the diocese.

But we work, uh, you know, with the diocese and we, you can almost say that we're delegates of the delegate. You know, a lot of the work that ecumenical officers do is what Mor Mercy also does. But what you had just said, uh, the church exhorts all the faithful as a solution to that bandwidth problem. Like, man, if we, if we all took this seriously, it wouldn't be so much, um, a burden.

You know, there's that famous line that. Or the adage of when, when you, when you noticed a problem and you're like, oh man, take care of this problem. It probably means you're the one called to take care of that problem. 

[00:49:14] Jim Jansen: Mm. 

[00:49:15] Jeremiah Zimmerman: When, when we reach out to these different, you know, ministry leaders within the Catholic church or, or these different lay faithful who are interested, it's like, okay.

When, when, when we all work together, we actually do work as unified body. So this work of ecumenism is not even just for the sake of reaching out to separated brethren, it's also for the sake of unifying

[00:49:37] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm.

[00:49:38] Jeremiah Zimmerman: The Catholic faithful. 

[00:49:40] Max Chapman: Yeah, I just, the, the first paragraph of the catechism is coming to mind where, you know, God infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, plan of sheer goodness.

He freely creates us so, so that we could share in his own blessed life. There's that line in it that says that, you know, we who were scattered and divided by sin are called into the unity of his family, the church. And so right there at the heart of the gospel message, it's like we were scattered and divided by sin and God, by sending us Jesus Christ as our savior is drawing us who have been scattered and divided and are drawing us into the unity of his family of the church.

And again, as we were talking about earlier, that unity there is this invisible, mystical unity that exists, but there's. A visible unity that exists, a unity in faith, sacraments, and hierarchy. And for whether you're Catholic, whether you're from a, a different Christian tradition, all of us are called, who have been scattered and divided to the depths of that unity of God's family, the church, and what Jeremiah was alluding to with, you know, the diocese and ecumenical officers or, or just like different things that the church has written about, what should diocese be doing.

It talks about how an ecumenical lens should be, and almost through everything, you know, it'll, it'll talk about how, you know, we should provide ecumenical formation within the school so that, you know, even from children's youngest ages, they would be thinking with like a, a, a mindset of what Catholic principles of ecumenism would be.

Or, you know, with wow formation or, or seminarians at their early years of seminary formation, it would be good for them to have practical ecumenical experience. And so we're, we're, we're trying to, you know, shift away from where it's, you know, it's, it's just the, the staff people doing it, but it's, it's all of us.

And I think one of the. One of the things that is, I don't know, I, I had kind of assumed that this would be the case before starting more Mercy, but I think it had been definitely confirmed is how messy it is. Yeah. I mean, just how, how abs like you have this easy to fall into a mindset of an us and of them.

Like, uh oh, we are the Catholics, they're the Catholic Christians. And it's, it's, I don't think it's helpful when you get into the US them kind of language. I think it's, but what we found is that a lot, a lot, a lot of the pastors and ministry leaders that we meet with, a lot of the people that go to the Christian communities that we interact with.

I, I feel pretty comfortable saying that the majority of them either were raised Catholic themselves, their spouse was someone who was raised Catholic or their parents were Catholic. It, it's almost an wow, I find someone who did not fit into one of those categories and 

[00:51:59] Jim Jansen: Wow. So there's a connection. 

[00:52:02] Max Chapman: Yeah.

Yeah. There connection at some point. But then it's, it's also a very humbling thing to realize, like, you know, some people, they'll, they'll share like, yeah, I was, I was Catholic and this was this traumatic experience that happened to me when I parish, or these were, these were sins that I learned from my friends who were Catholic.

And then I've had an evangelical Protestant, you know, figure in my life that walked with me in a company out of the sins that I learned from my Catholic friends. You know? So it's just mm-hmm. Yeah. Gosh. It's just this constant challenge of. I'm, we're not just like, Hey, all of you, outside of the visible boundaries, you need to get right with us in a way.

Like it's, it's also how do we also help Catholics to look at, yes, we claim to have the fullness of grace and truth available within the Catholic church, but am I standing next to the all you can eat buffet of grace and truth, or am I actually eating and feeding and allowing God's grace to change and transform my heart?

Sure. Because, yeah, so much of this is. Helping Catholics to be more really like, really more Catholic as well. Like not just, but everyone, we all have to have this conversion of heart because when I, as a Catholic don't live out the Catholic faith, well that is a scandal and a stumbling block to my brothers and sisters of different Christian traditions.

Like when they, me going to receive the Eucharist every day, and if I'm to walk away unchanged and uncharitable to the poor and whatnot, that's a scandal to them. Like, well, why, why should I do that? You know, if it's not changing. 

[00:53:21] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:21] Max Chapman: I think a, a huge part of it is calling all people to that conversion of heart and, and having them take an active role in it.

[00:53:28] Jim Jansen: I wanna give you a chance to tell maybe a story or two that illustrate how someone, just an ordinary, faithful Catholic, uh, you know, maybe even a parish community, how they get started. 

[00:53:43] Max Chapman: First, I mean, how to get started I think. Well, so at our recent workshop we've, we've been hosting these Catholic ecumenism workshops.

We kind of walk through. We have very practical tools. Hopefully they'll actually be up on our website very soon, but. 

[00:53:54] Jim Jansen: Nice. We'll link, we'll link to it. 

[00:53:56] Max Chapman: But we, we walk through like a prayer guide of ways to pray about Christian unity before you ever even talk to someone, before you even like step one.

[00:54:05] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Thank you. Talk to God before you talk to your friend about. 

[00:54:09] Max Chapman: Again, I think one of the, the biggest things I've learned from this is that just how scripture says that, you know, no one can say Jesus is Lord, if not by the Holy Spirit. No one can desire unity among the body of Christ, unity among Christians, if not by the Holy Spirit.

And so I think the first thing is really to, to pray. Pray with John chapter 17. Pray with John chapter 17 verses 20 through 23. Pray with Jesus in John chapter 12 saying, when I'm lifted up, I will draw all people to myself and realize that his death was to gather all who have been scattered and divided to himself, to his body, to his church.

And, and I think the more that you, you pray with our Lord's prayer, the more that you allow his heart to become your heart. The more you will be able to see the family members, the friends. 'cause I mean, at our, our workshops at a lot of things that, that people will say like, you know, I have, I have family members that go to this other, they belong to another Christian community.

Or I have this coworker that, you know, they lead a bible study that's different from us. Or, I mean, everyone seems to have in their life. So again, what I'm not saying is, well, I guess if people feel the call and they listen to, it's like, man, I really wanna drive around and knock on the doors of, you know, Protestant pastors buildings.

Contact us. We'd love to if you'd wanna join our team or something. But, but everyone I think has people in their life. So I'd say first and foremost, pray and allow whatever steps come forth from that to flow from your relationship with Jesus and where he's inviting you in prayer. Because again, our mission is restore Christian unity through truth and love.

We want a space to pursue truth together. We wanna ask meaningful questions and a very sincere thing that you can do. You know, is to, after you pray, ask somebody to have an intentional conversation. You can say something like, Hey, I've been praying about Christian Unity and I had some ideas I wanted to run past you.

Would you mind if we got together to meet? Almost always people will say yes to that, especially if it's a, mm-hmm. Remember you say, Hey, I've been praying about something and I'd love to know your thoughts. That's also really helpful because if you just said, Hey, can we hang out? And they have no idea what you're talking about, then you know, if you together with them, you might chicken out or you might be like, when do I say it?

If you let them know ahead of time what you want to talk about, they're much more likely to say, Hey, you've been praying about Christian Unity. What does that look like for you? You can say, Hey, you know, yes, there's a movement towards unity, you know, through truth and love. Like, I want to ask questions. I wanna serve the poor together.

I want to, you know, and just kind of see what that looks like. Because for everyone, truth and love I think is like the little kernel. That's the invitation. It's can we, you know, pursue Christian unity through truth and love, and then that can look very different depending on the person. 

[00:56:39] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. I wanna give both of you.

'cause Max, I, I can almost, again, I can hear my friend listening and he's like, oh man, he's afraid it's gonna be technical. That meaning it's gonna be a theological conversation and we're gonna be talking about structures and deep ecclesiology and sacramental theology. And he is like, crap. Uh, may, this is not for me.

In my experience, if that ever comes into the conversation, it's way later. That's where you're like, boop, tag out ecumenical officer. But it almost never comes up. That 90% of the conversation is the development of a relationship and a rediscovery of this common ground that we have. And I, I've been blessed to, to walk very closely with a number of individuals who were ministry leaders in other denominations that became Catholic.

And honestly, I, I don't feel like I did anything. I was just a friend. I just had some conversation and, and my witness without my even quite being aware of it, did all the heavy lifting. The, the lord did all the heavy lifting and then they, and then they were nerds and so they read stuff and then I got to like, you know, be present at their reception into the church.

Right. But it really felt that easy. The hard part was cutting through the distraction of life and being present to them. 

[00:58:03] Jeremiah Zimmerman: Right, right. We, me and Max, we recently just had, uh, a more mercy, uh, workshop actually about the practicals of starting the conversation. And, you know, max laid out this wonderful, beautiful structure to follow, and, but it was also very clear to everyone.

Like, Hey, whatever helps you. Love the person and want to pursue the truth with them. That is the thing that you should do because, um, it's not about having the perfect conversation, about having the perfect structure. It's actually about mm-hmm. Even having the conversation and like you just alluded, alluded to, the most important thing actually is the relationship.

Right? Yeah. With like a lot of this conversation here, we've been talking about some more, more complex things, but the most important thing actually is having the relationship. Like Max, I know you have a story with, with a leader where he helped you out in, uh, in your basement when it was flooding. Oh my gosh.

[00:58:54] Max Chapman: Yeah. I mean, it's okay. Yeah. Even just like a couple of these things where our basement flooded flash flood here in Nebraska and it took, took on a lot of water and, uh, once we found out insurance wasn't gonna pay for it because of whatever circumstances. And I shared it with one of my pastor friends and he goes, oh, well, for, you know, 25 years I was bi-vocational and I also ran this like restoration company where we'd fix homes after insurance claims.

And so he spent like a week straight at my house just teaching me how to do drywall, replacing carpets. I mean, it was just amazing, just the friendship. 

[00:59:24] Jim Jansen: Ah, that's awesome. 

[00:59:25] Max Chapman: While we're, while he's teaching me how to do drywall, we're having, you know, these like theological conversations, right? I think about a, one of my, my really close friends, you know, he is a, a Presbyterian pastor and, and our families, we got together at Holmes Lake here in Lincoln, and we had a picnic with our kid, you know, our kids, our family.

We were having to, that we had dinner together and then our kids are playing on the playground. And while our kids are playing, you know, he's asking me questions about justification and I'm trying to clarify. It's like, is this, of course, is this a truth moment? Is this a love moment? Like, you know it in the context of a relationship and at the same, yeah, we care about each other.

[00:59:57] Jeremiah Zimmerman: And, and I'll say too, like Max had mentioned this at the very beginning of our conversation of. When you go into these conversations, it's, it's not about having the perfect answer. It's, it's about just entering into the space and allowing the Lord to like, convert your heart. Because you might be asked questions that you don't know the answer to.

Good now, now you've been challenged yes. To, to more about your faith. So it's not about coming into it with the perfect setup, with the perfect knowledge. Um, it's about being mm-hmm. To be being converted by the Lord. Mm-hmm. Through through authentic friendship. 

[01:00:33] Jim Jansen: Gentlemen, I want to give you a chance here for, for the people like.

You know, they're, they're feeling convicted. They're kind of having a, oh no, you know, my friend moment. Those, those two, right? Those like, they, they wanna connect with you guys. Where, where can they connect to learn more about your work? 

[01:00:51] Max Chapman: Yeah, more mercy lincoln.org is a great place to start. Just fill out a contact form and let us know your story.

A lot of people have done that. You know, Jeremiah has been on the radio before. We, we've both done public things, and it's always fun when we get the contact form says, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm married to this person of a different faith tradition, or I, I've got this friend who's doing this, or, Hey, I'm close friends with this pastor.

Or, you know, just share with us your story. Share with us what you want. And so, yeah, more mercy lincoln.org. Fill out a contact form and just kind of open-ended. Let us know what, what you're interested in. I'd say we'd love to just hear your story and see how we can accompany you and your, your ecumenical relationships.

[01:01:26] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. We will link to that in the show notes. Guys, any kind of final words of encouragement for people? 

[01:01:33] Jeremiah Zimmerman: The word became flesh and dwelt among us. And he came into a world that was messy, like Max said earlier. So don't be afraid of the messiness. The the Lord. The Lord didn't come to make bad people.

Good. He came to make dead people alive. And so we allow him into our mess. That's what the Lord asks from us.

[01:01:52] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:52] Max Chapman: Yeah. And, and I think my final, final image, this is one that I think has permeated a lot of, not necessarily the practicals, but more of the posture that we take with more mercy. Mm. Posture that I would encourage people to have.

And I remember hearing once that you can perform a. An autopsy on a dead body differently than you would perform a surgery on a living body. You an autopsy on a dead body, you just kind of cut, cut open and say, ah, what's in here? Uh, but with a living body, you have more finesse. You have, you take care. Mm, have a bigger scar.

You know, you try to minimize the damage as you're doing a surgery and, and in the same way. The movement towards unity among Christians, you are entering into a space where there is very likely a wound within the body of Christ, and the church is a living body. And so if you were to, if, if Christ was to extend his hand to you and you were to behold one of his wounds, how would you approach that?

Would you approach that with, uh, you know, a sarcastic comment about the, you know, the, the differences that are there or, or would you approach with reverence? And, and I, I think I would just invite people, you know, as you step into the space of moving towards unity among Christians to recognize that these are are real wounds of the, you know, within the body of Christ.

And, uh, to approach. So with tenderness, with reverence, with gentleness, and not a triumphalistic attitude. 

[01:03:12] Jim Jansen: Man, that's beautiful. Gentlemen, thank you. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for your work. Uh, we'll link to stuff in the show notes, but thanks for being with us. Thank you so much. You, so much, Jim.

Appreciate it. Alright, everybody, you know, somebody who, uh, who needs to hear today's conversation. So when you are at a safe place where you can share this out, take a moment. Let the Lord bring to mind who he wants you to share this with, and send it on to them and encourage them to take a listen. Thanks everybody.

Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.