[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast. So, I just had a great conversation with John Gencarelli. John has been doing parish ministry for over 25 years, and we have a real honest conversation about boundaries, and time, and burnout, and forgiveness, and prayer, and transformation, and how simple things like tracking your hours and planning your week can make all the difference. It's a real humble conversation. Uh, I think it could be a key. For healing if you're a little hungry for transformation or you know someone who is You're gonna love today's conversation. Take a listen.

Everybody welcome to the equip cast a weekly podcast for the archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

John Gencarelli, Welcome to the equip cast. How you doing, brother? 

[00:01:03] John: I'm good. How are you? 

[00:01:04] Jim Jansen: Pretty good. Pretty good. 

[00:01:05] John: Good. 

[00:01:06] Jim Jansen: Okay. So, we were just kind of like, we just came from a party together, which is not normally the way, uh, we start an EquipCast episodes like, Hey, go to a party. But we just went to a retirement party for a fellow employee here at the Chantry 25 years.

God bless Kathy Schneider. You're retiring to Peru, Peru, Nebraska. And you said you knew Kathy at the start, like when you started the archdiocese. 

[00:01:34] John: We started about the same time, and she was the director of religious education at that time. Yeah. So, she taught me a lot over the years. 

[00:01:43] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Very, very neat lady. All right. So, we're going to, we're going to do a little bit, a little bit of history here. I'm super excited about our conversation. We're going to dive into pastoral conversion, like what does that look like? What even is it? But let's start. John, who are you? 

[00:02:00] John: Well, I'm currently the evangelization coordinator at St. Philip Neri-Blessed Sacrament and Holy Name parishes, but I've been in ministry for about 26 years now. So, I grew up Catholic, Italian family, spent six years in public school, six years in Catholic school. Did a year and a half stint in the, in the seminary in Kansas City. 

[00:02:23] Jim Jansen: Nice. 

[00:02:23] John: I've had, uh, experience with a lot of different things.

[00:02:27] Jim Jansen: What's your, what's your faith story? Where'd you, where'd you come from? Like how'd you, how'd you, how'd you meet Jesus? 

[00:02:34] John: Well, you know, that really happened. Um, I was about 30 years old, and I got clean and sober. I spent 15 years in a bottle and uh, I got clean and sober, went to AA, went to rehab, went to AA.

And that's really where I found Jesus. It wasn't a, you know, big explosive moment where, you know, the clouds parted and all of that, but, you know, they teach you in AA that, you know, you really have no, You really have to have a higher power that's guiding you. 

[00:03:07] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:03:07] John: It's a very spiritual journey. And that's where I really began to realize that I needed God in my life, um, as support and motivation to stay sober.

And I have for be 31 years in August. That's awesome. Yeah. Thanks. So, it was really essential for me to put the, the, the trust in the power greater than myself, as they call it. That was really the I'd say the guiding force in my recovery. So, so while many people I say have this big moment of conversion, mine kind of, it was spread out and I think it's still ongoing.

[00:03:40] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I want to talk about the AA thing for a little bit. I don't know how well, I mean, not that we're going to dive in the historical, but like, as I understand it, the, the founders of AA, which, you know, it's supposed to be kind of anonymous, but like those who were really deeply influenced by the Catholic faith.

I think there was a little bit of a Jesuit spirituality influence there. I've found that fascinating because as I, as I've been drawn to like the 12 steps, not because I'm working on anything. I mean, I'm working on plenty of stuff, but I'm not, I'm not in any, I'm not in a formal program, uh, right now, but I've noticed how, uh, I don't mean this to sound, like, disrespectful, but how addictive the status quo is.

Right? How hard it is to be in a place where it's like, I actually don't like the way I'm living. Yeah. Just at small levels. Right? As like, as like a parent or like, you know, habits at work, but I can't stop. I can't seem to work differently. I can't seem to parent the way I want to. And I, you know, as I started, just to start to get into the 12 steps.

I'm like, Oh, this is just kind of Christianity one on one healthy living one on one forgiveness acknowledge you can't do it on your own. 

[00:05:03] John: It's sacramental. 

[00:05:04] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Say, say more about that. 

[00:05:07] John: Well, it really is. I mean, if you take a look at the, all the 12 steps and I can't sit here and name them all cause it's been a while. But it has a lot to do with the sacraments. I mean, confession is a big one. 

[00:05:19] Jim Jansen: Yeah, and making restitution and amends as you can. 

[00:05:22] John: Yeah, there's really a part of it I think is, is wholly tied to baptism and confirmation. It's just, it's just so sacramental. All the way through the 12 steps. 

[00:05:34] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I was really struck by that too. And I'm wondering, like, if that can actually be, you know, it's funny, it's like, you can't name them, uh, you know, all in order, but they actually, I mean, other people that I have, that, friends that have been through the program, like, they just become a part of your life. You get good at, because you have to, to survive.

You get good at forgiveness. You get good at acknowledging your weakness. You make amends. And some of these things become a habitual way of living, which is really a path to healing and wholeness, regardless of whether or not you're struggling with alcoholism or some other addiction. Yeah. John, I was just thinking, you know, like, so I want to have a conversation about pastoral conversion, right?

Like ongoing conversion. Pope Francis talks about this idea that like, yeah, even after we're like, yep, Jesus is God, there's still some work, still some stuff to be done. And even after we've been serving him, there's this, he names it as conversion. There's this Way of pastoring way of sharing our faith way of serving often needs converting changing and not necessarily because it's bad, but because the Lord wants something more for us because maybe the ministry landscape of those we serve has changed just to get us started.

Can you, I mean, tell us a little bit about. Like some of the roles that you've played, uh, in parish ministry, cause you've done so many of them. And I feel like as we're, we'll come back to the, to the 12-step thing. Cause I feel like that could weave its way through the whole conversation, but let's get some context for people.

Like what have you done, John? 

[00:07:19] John: Well, this is my second career. I was a late starter. I was an automotive technician for 20 years. Uh, and I taught at a Metro college too, for six years. So, I didn't really get started until, uh, about 26, 27 years ago. 

[00:07:35] Jim Jansen: What drew you in? 

[00:07:36] John: Huh. It's funny. I got tricked into it. 

[00:07:40] Jim Jansen: Yeah. You know, that's not an uncommon story. 

[00:07:43] John: The youth minister at, uh, the parish I belong to, who was a good friend of mine, and I knew him really well, he needed, uh, help with a junior high lock in back when we used to do lock ins. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he says, can you just come for two hours? And I was like, I don't know.

I don't want to spend all night with a bunch of junior high kids. Yeah, just, you know, it wasn't my thing. I was facilitating, helping to facilitate our CIA at the time. And, uh, but he was a good friend of mine. So, I says, yeah, let's, I'll come for two hours. I'll come from, you know, 10 o'clock to midnight and then I'm going home.

I was the last one to leave at eight o'clock the next morning. I had so much fun. It was just a blessing. To get to know all the kids and, and I had a lot, I just had a lot of fun all night. And, uh, so the following year, then he asked me and my wife to, uh, to be small group leaders in the youth ministry program that he was running.

And that's how it started, you know, and then. It was probably a year and a half or two years after that, that, um, I quit being a technician. Uh, I had some back problems, and I went home, and me and my wife talked about it and prayed about it. And I says, God, if this is what you want me to do, you're going to have to support me because I have no income now.

[00:09:05] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:09:06] John: So, within two weeks I had, uh, three job offers in youth ministry. So that's how it started from there. I did youth ministry for several years and I've also done uh, young adult ministry, been a DRE, uh, been a director of faith formation, which is basically everything from Sunday school to adult faith formation.

Right now, I'm currently, like I said, an evangelization coordinator. Uh, I've worked here at the archdiocese as a basically a youth director or discipleship. So, yeah, I mean, I've done all kinds of things. 

[00:09:37] Jim Jansen: Literally almost cradle to grave, you know, little kids for religious ed, supporting the DREs, teens and youth ministry, young adult and now adult.

I mean, just like, and then of course the parents, I mean, just all the way through. So, we'll just be honest here. You know, we're like, we're like, we're just about to cross the 10-minute mark. So now we can be honest, nobody serves that long without encountering some disappointment, uh, getting a few battle scars along the way, John, how have you managed to persevere and to stay hopeful?

[00:10:08] John: Well, I think for me, it was really a desire to reach people. We talk about parishes, I mean, the vision of the archdiocese and parishes being missional communities, but that really starts with the individual, you know, I like the mission that Jesus gave us, you know, and Matthew, you tell us, Jesus says to his disciples, go out and make disciples of all nations.

So, this isn't something new. This has been around since the church was, has been around. Is it easy? No, you know, I don't think it is. I've seen people give up because sometimes it feels impossible. It really does. I mean, it feels like you're pounding your head against the wall. It's a 24 7 job. I mean, it really is.

And a lot of times I think people don't set boundaries with your personal time, your personal life. 

[00:10:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Talk about that. Because how do you do that? And I know you're not perfect at it. 

[00:11:02] John: Nobody is. 

[00:11:02] Jim Jansen: But how do you, how do you do that? 

[00:11:04] John: Well, you know, it's crazy hours. It's, it's, it's not a nine to five job. And if that's what you're looking for in church ministry, you're, you're not going to find it.

Unless maybe you're like a business manager or something like that. But my first years in ministry were really hard because I wanted to make such a big difference and I felt like I had to prove myself because I was the new kid, you know, and so I worked a lot of hours over what I should have been working and definitely what, what I was getting paid for.

And after about 15 years, 12 to 15 years or so, I was really starting to get burned out. You know, I felt like I really had nothing left to give and somebody had told me, I got some really good advice from somebody, and it says, keep track of your hours. And so I asked my wife to put together an Excel program that would keep track of my hours so I could just put the time I came in and the time I left and boy, that made a difference because I figured out I was working like 70 hours a week.

[00:12:02] Jim Jansen: Wow. So, I mean, just as simple as, like, tracking your hours, you could suddenly, you had to face the honest, like, Oh, Hey, it's Wednesday and I'm already at 40, 50 hours a week. 

[00:12:14] John: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We used to have this program called CLI, which is Catholic Leadership Institute, and it was a leadership institute for, for young people to learn leadership skills and it was seven days long and we did it out at Wayne State College.

I missed my first 10 years of anniversaries, my wedding anniversaries, to be at CLI. Wow. So that's just crazy. But you are still married. 

[00:12:40] Jim Jansen: Yes. I can see the ring on your finger. 28 years. We were talking about Dawn before. 

[00:12:43] John: God bless Dawn. 28 years. If it was not for her, I could not have done what I've been doing for the last 25 years just...

[00:12:51] Jim Jansen: Well, I mean, you're kind of highlighting that. Like it is a come. It's a commitment on both parts, even if only one is working for the church because it's a shared. I mean, I think, you know, Kim and I feel the same way. There's a sometimes like seasons. That are very busy for me, you know, at work where I'm going to be doing more evenings or more weekends.

And, and the whole family is affected by that. We try and flex if possible. It's hard with kids’ schedules, but we try and flex the whole family schedule to compensate if we can. Uh, because, you know, even if I get flex time in the middle, if it's, you know, if it's in the fall, the kids are in school. Well, yeah, I can, you know, take time off, you know, during the day on a random Wednesday.

Okay. But I don't get that time back with your kids. And so, to try and flex things and to plan ahead. Um, I love that, that tracking spreadsheet cause it actually helped you. Did it help you not just like recognize where we're at? Did it begin to help you plan too? 

[00:13:55] John: Yes, it did very much so. 

[00:13:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:13:57] John: Cause I really had to look at what I was doing during those hours and say, okay, but these are the priorities that need to be done.

So, it really helped me put together a plan for my ministry, just looking at my hours and going, well, it wasn't something, well, I can get to that later because no, I'm not going to be here later. 

[00:14:19] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's, that's really good. John. Super honest here. I don't know if I would, you know, if, if everybody were a character in Winnie the Pooh, you're not a rabbit or a Kanga or a Roo or a Tigger.

There's a couple of other characters. You can decide which one fits you best. Maybe we'll just say you're just not like a natural optimist. I think there's something supernatural. In your perseverance, like have you, have you weathered just disappointments and frustrations, you know, people, you kids, you, you're trying to reach, and you don't, how do you handle that?

[00:14:59] John: A lot of prayer. Yeah. A lot of prayer. That's something, uh, I've learned that, uh, I didn't use to do very well, and it really did affect my ministry. And I've learned over the years that prayers just don't work. He's central. You know, most of us that work in a church, we don't spend much time going over to the church.

We don't go to the chapel. I've started making that time during my, during my workday just to go over and spend some time in front of the blessed sacrament. You know, my biggest disappointment for me came about, I was about 12 or 13 years ago. And people I had known for so many years, youth ministers and DREs and just people pastoral ministers that I've worked with for years, they all kind of began to leave the ministry.

Um, some of them retired, some of them just moved on to different jobs, you know, teachers and all kinds of other things. But um, you know, we were really like family. We got together once a month and we went to each other's. Uh, kids’ baptisms and, you know, funerals and we helped each other through cancers and, you know, we just did everything together.

[00:16:13] Jim Jansen: Beautiful, beautiful community. 

[00:16:14] John: Yeah, it was. It was a family. I mean, it was, it was more than people that work together. We were really a family, you know, and, uh, so we were there for every, everything that happened in people's lives. Uh, it really didn't matter what it was. And then people started, you know, just moving on in life.

I mean, they weren't unhappy or anything else. They just, several of them retired and, um, and moved on to different fields. And some of them went back to the real world. Uh, so that was a really hard time for me. And then, you know, the. Several people left the office of religious formation. That's what it was called back then.

[00:16:52] Jim Jansen: Right. The archdiocese and offices. Yeah. The archdiocese. They were turning over too. 

[00:16:56] John: Yeah, they were, they were really turning over and, and we got a lot of new people in, including you. You know, I remember when, uh, Jen Mosier back then step is admiring now, you know, when she started, that was, 11 years ago now.

Yeah. Um, and she was the youth ministry director and that was hard for me because you know, I missed the person that was there before her. Yeah. And uh, so it was, it was very difficult and there was a lot of change going on in my life. Both of my parents had gotten very sick. Um, and my mother ended up passing away shortly after that.

And then my father lived for a while, but you know, I was taking care of them. My wife got cancer and That lasted like six years of treatments. And so, there was a lot going on for me personally. And so, trying to take care of my parents and trying to take care of my wife and continue to do the job the best I could.

And I really didn't have any real support. Anymore, because a lot of the new youth ministers that were hired were young, a lot younger than me. 

[00:18:00] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:18:00] John: I mean, at least a generation, some of them two generations behind me or ahead of me, I guess. And I was in a deaconate program too. And I had to take a leave of absence to take care of my parents, but I don't regret that. Because family comes first and they would tell you the same thing. 

[00:18:19] Jim Jansen: Right? But those were all communities that you had to step away from and step away from and step into really taxing service. You know, I mean, I had a very short, you know, you know, just, just recently my father passed away, uh, and I had a very short period of kind of, you know, the intensive kind of, Hospice care kind of pre, it really wasn't that long compared to what other people, and we were blessed to have, you know, a lot of really good, good helpers.

But that's taxing. It's not just I'm, I'm stepping away from a community that I love, but I'm stepping into a really intense giving of self. That's often lonely. 

[00:18:59] John: Yeah. Very. Cause nobody takes care of the caretakers. 

[00:19:03] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:19:04] John: And you'll find that a lot of people in ministry, not everybody, but most people in ministry are caretakers.

That's just our personality. We're used to taking care of people, handling things. So that's what we do. But when we're doing it at work. And then we're doing it at home also. It's very taxing. Yeah. Emotionally, physically, spiritually, all of it. Yeah. You know, it affects your whole person. For me, I went through a period of real anger.

I mean, at a lot of people and I was lonely, I felt out of place and that kind of, For me, it kind of manifested itself by not really accepting the new youth ministers that were coming into the scene and we didn't seem to get along and we had a lot of different ideas and that caused tension and, you know, it was just a difficult time, very difficult.

I thought they should be listening to me because I was the one who had experience. 

[00:20:06] Jim Jansen: Well, we, I mean, we probably should have, but there were, there were a couple of things like, I mean, I think the grief you're going through, you're a tall man with a deep voice and you've had a couple of, you know, you've got a couple of very cool tattoos.

And a sweet bike. So, you put all those things together and you're like, I don't know if I'm, I might be a little scared of John. I want to go; I want to fast forward a little bit and then come back. You know, we got to work. You mentioned this. We got to work together really closely. Um, for I don't know, about three years.

I forget how long, how long we were teammates, but I've been thinking about the, uh, the interview process. There was this moment where, you know, we went through the formal thing, sitting in a boardroom and asking you questions. And that was a beautiful, you know, we had had some conversations before then.

And then we had the formal interview. And then we always do this like lunch thing. And there were a lot of, we invited a couple of young youth ministers and We knew that there, you know, there had been this tension that there was this grief that you had experienced in the transition and it seemed like there was something new going on, but we're like, okay, well, John's job is going to be to be mentoring these young folks.

He's got to be able to connect with them. How's this going to go? And the way I remember it, we sit down, and you know, the menus come, it was a Mexican restaurant. So, you know, we like chips or salsa. Yeah. Yeah. Then like right away, God bless one of the young ones. Like, so John, why did you apply for this job?

And it wasn't like maybe quite the same. I just said, but it was honest enough that you just like went there. You're like, well, I was angry and a little bitter, but I've been, you know, and just, you talked about this transformation that the Lord had done. And I think you like ended with like an apology. And then like one of the others like, Oh my gosh, like I felt that too.

Like I came in and you know, and I wanted, and you were the veteran, and I wanted like advice and counsel and you're like, I know, I'm sorry. I was grieving. And it's like, we didn't, we hadn't even had a chance to order our food yet. Reconciliation of moment. And then afterwards, you just kind of started as the conversation progressed, a couple of us had to leave and you're just, you just spontaneously started to kind of mentor this person.

So, I was like, so you had the job before the food came to God did something amazing there. I want, I want you to like, now we can go back to the time machine. You're like, what happened? You're like, you're, you're sad, there's grief, there's this loss, a lot of personal, heavy, personal stuff that you're carrying, caring for people.

And God does this amazing transformation in you. Take us back. Like, what happened? 

[00:22:46] John: Uh, well, I had to go through that grieving process. I was grieving the loss of a lot of friends, my parents, you know, everything. But COVID happened. Yeah, it did. When did COVID happen? And what is this COVID thing you speak of?

What is this COVID? And you know this quite well. I mean, when COVID happened, everything shut down. 

[00:23:10] Jim Jansen: There was like a week when everybody was like, Hey, all our stuff's online. And then most people are like, never mind. I'm just staying home. 

[00:23:18] John: You know, I was not prepared for that. I mean, I was doing everything in person, and I didn't have the technological skills to like put everything online and.

Record mass and we didn't have all of that equipment at the place. I don't think anybody was prepared, but yeah, keep going. But, you know, I spent probably the first 6 months of COVID just putting everything online. I was a DRE at that time, and we had to put all of our classes. You know, for the rest of the year, I mean, this happened in November, you know, through May and the sacraments and we put every class online where kids could log on and they could do the problems and, you know, all of that and record their little videos and things like that.

So, and then. I was like, well, now what do I do? Cause we're still not meeting, you know, so I don't have to be here every Sunday or every Wednesday night or whatever. And, you know, so I just dived into, well, it's time, good time for me to learn. So, I started taking as many courses as I could, um, online courses, obviously, because nobody was meeting in person.

So, uh, the nice part was, you know, zoom became very popular. And so, a lot of, uh, the organizations. that you used to have to pay for now became free. They were giving away all this free content and this free education. So, I just dove in and, um, I was like, well, free sounds good to me. 

[00:24:45] Jim Jansen: How to get a church minister's attention.

[00:24:48] John: Free, free. 

[00:24:49] Jim Jansen: It's in my budget and there's food. Yeah. 

[00:24:53] John: So, I really dug into like, uh, rebuilt courses, divine renovation courses. But the one I think that really hit me was, uh, revived parishes, which is totally free by the way, and I'm not promoting it, but it is still totally free. 

[00:25:09] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Neither of us get a commission, but we're actually, we'll put the link on in the show notes cause it's, it is an amazing wealth of.

Kind of segment-by-segment short modular videos on all the stuff, evangelization, parish renewal, what is discipleship, all of it. It's great. 

[00:25:27] John: Yeah. And they have courses for business managers, DREs, everything. So, the one that really struck me the most, I mean, and I, and I took a couple, um, uh, one was, Parish Renewal with Tim Glemkowski.

Another one was Evangelization with Chris Stefanik, um, who are both, you know, big in the, in the business. But the one that struck me the most was, uh, Julianne Stanz. She did one on missionary discipleship and it was amazing. Besides her Irish voice. I know. 

[00:26:00] Jim Jansen: She is a lovely, for those of you who don't know Julianne Stanz, she is, yeah, an amazing Thank you.

It's just a lovely accent, uh, wonderful person, uh, gifted teacher and presenter, but I could listen to her read, uh, you know, read a lawnmower manual because it's just, it's such, oh, I love the Irish brogue. It's like, it speaks to my heritage. Anyway, keep going. 

[00:26:20] John: So, what I found out and what I learned. Was that everybody that I had been listening to for 20 years, top religious education people, top youth ministry people, they were all saying the same thing.

We need to change how we're doing things. We can't be doing it the same way we've been doing it. Not that we were doing anything wrong. And. And I want to make sure that's clear, because we were doing what we thought we were supposed to and what was right, and what we were told to do. 

[00:26:51] Jim Jansen: And I would add, it was faithful.

[00:26:53] John: It was. 

[00:26:54] Jim Jansen: And it was fruitful. So, it's not just like, well, you know, they did the best they could, but they didn't. I mean, it's not like, I don't know, leeches or like bleeding or some of the primitive turn of the century medicinal. It's like, well, faith. Probably wasn't a good note. I mean, this was like it was good stuff.

Yeah, good, faithful, fruitful stuff. But what changed was the circumstances and the mission field and the culture. And it forced us to have to look at new methods even more in line and fundamental with the Great Commission and the methods of Jesus. Yeah. 

[00:27:29] John: And the biggest thing I learned was that all these new youth ministers that were coming in already knew that.

I was the one who didn't know that. How did that feel? Oh, it was hard. I can only imagine. I'm not a humble man, but I had to be. That was the biggest thing that came out of it. I was like, wait a minute, they are really doing great things. And I'm not a part of that and I want to be a part of that. So, I really had to become humble and apologize and go, Hey, this is what I was going through.

And I really had to work through what the past, but they have taught me a lot since then. And I think we're, we're friends. I mean, we don't speak a whole lot just because of the places we're at, but. But the, I guess the important thing is through this whole thing, it took a lot of reflection, a lot of sitting in the chapel and, and just really learning to forgive myself and to really allow Jesus to heal that sin of pride that I had so deep in me.

And I realized I had so much to learn and so many people that the new year, youth ministers and newer DREs, you know, they were starting different things and doing different things. People that I really had kind of refused to work with. They've taught me a lot, 

[00:28:59] Jim Jansen: John. I love that story. I mean, it's so beautiful.

It, it reminds me a little bit of a small, experience that, that I had had, you know, I was as a missionary. It just dawned on me as you were talking. I'm, I'm probably, I'm, I'm about 25 years into, uh, my ministry career as, as well. Although I started younger, I'll probably finish as an auto mechanic, but, you know, I'll, I'll look working in my son's shop someday,

Um, but no, that would be a disaster. Anyway, I, I start, we, we've been, I started younger, but we've been doing it about the same time. And I remember it was about… I don't know, it was about 10 years in, and there were lots of little mini conversions, you know, gotta figure out how to do this in a new way. But the big thing I remember, there was a time in Focus where we were, as an organization, rediscovering the power of the gospel.

And There were so many other missionaries who were really getting comfortable and rejoicing in after they had developed a relationship with someone being able to just say like, Hey, you know what? God loves you, but your life is a mess and Jesus could fix this if you'd let him in. Do you want to, do you want to give him a shot?

And I just wasn't comfortable doing that. I loved developing relationships. And then after people were a disciple, I loved like, you know, helping them grow and mature and teaching about the faith. But for some reason, I had this weird hang up about actually talking to people about Jesus and asking them to make a decision.

And the only thing that really made the difference is my own study, learning, right? Like I was, taking a master's course and I started to hear John Paul II and others talk about that. And then I was just jealous. Uh, the other, the other missionaries had better stories than I did. And I remember I had similar things.

I had to sit in the chapel and just wrestle with that stuff and pray about it. I feel like we've got two characteristics. Like, okay. It's learning. It's kind of sitting in the chapel, praying. Like, what else? What are elements for people who are like, Oh crap, this is my story. I need this. I'm stuck. I'm sad.

I don't feel like it's working anymore. I don't know what to do. They want this kind of turnaround moment like the Lord did, you know, in our lives. What are the ingredients, John? What do they do? 

[00:31:30] John: Pray. 

[00:31:31] Jim Jansen: What should they pray for? 

[00:31:34] John: You know what? For me, it was just having a conversation. But it was more than a conversation because I never knew how to listen to God.

I thought prayer was all about talking at God and telling him what I needed and expecting him to do that because it says so in the Bible. But I never really listened to what he had to say. And so that's the key part is just sometimes you just gotta be quiet. And that's hard for me to do and just listen to what Jesus is telling you and he will tell you.

He will let you know he's not going to, you know, talk to you in a real voice, but in your head and in your heart, he will let you know what your path is. 

[00:32:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. You were in a real humble place though. So, like you wanted to know, I mean, but like half the time when I like, don't give the Lord a chance to speak, it's because.

I don't feel the need for his counsel or his, you know, I don't need the reassurance in my heart and I don't think he likes putting me through pain, but sometimes that's the only thing that gets me to a place where I actually realize I need to hear him. Yeah. I wonder in some ways we're back in kind of like an AA place where it's like admitting that we need a higher power.

Yeah. You know, and, and apologizing and trying to make restitution, you know, for those, uh, that we've hurt. Anything else like really come to mind as you're like, gosh, this is, this is what, as I look back now, this is what the Lord did. It was learning. It was prayer. It was humility. It was apologies. What else?

[00:33:16] John: I would say be open to what God has for you because he has great things, and he wants to do great things through all of us. I mean, that's what we're called to do. I think you need to really be open, learn a lot. Like, like you said, I still think, like I said earlier, prayer is the biggest thing. If you're talking about people that are going to go into church ministry or vocation in the church of any kind, clergy, religious, uh, lay ministry, realize that it's a difficult job some days, uh, other days it's just nothing but joy.

Don't forget to sleep, get eight hours a night. But 

[00:34:01] Jim Jansen: I mean, that's really good advice, but it's so weird that we have to remind ourselves of that. But keep going, 

[00:34:06] John: Because you'll go home at night, and you'll think about what you have to do the next day. Take a day off. Take two days off if you can, you know, this is the thing.

Jesus has already saved us. You can't do it. Yeah. You can't save anybody. Jesus already did that. Okay, so you can't do it by yourself. 

[00:34:25] Jim Jansen: Get a team. I love, can you say more about the two days off? Cause that just like really resonates with me. Like one of the things that I've been personally and then trying to go after my, my team on and say, Hey, listen, like, you know, you're on salary here.

You're not paid by the hour. And I know some people are paid by the hour, but just to, to go with a larger principle, like we're paid to communicate the love of God. We're paid to like tap into the stream of the spirit and to let him lead us and guide us and draw people together. And sometimes we can't do that because we're just too tired or too fried.

I remember there's a good friend of mine, you remind me, Matt Simmons, you know, Matt has spent a time or two in a tattoo parlor as well. And I remember when we were teammates, we're working together sometimes in the middle of the day, he would just go and pray. Not long, not hours, but like, you know, he takes 10, 15, 20 minutes cause he's like, yeah, I just, I'm not okay.

I just need to process some things, you know? And he was just tired or frustrated or confused. And I just go and do email when that would happen. And it was like, and I just noticed like, Huh. I'm, you know, I'm upset. I get a snack, and I do email. Matt's upset and he goes, and he talks to Jesus. It's like, can you do that?

And then I, I mean, I saw the fruit in Matt's ministry. It's like, oh, you can totally do that. You should totally do that. Talk about taking extra time off because you're an extremely diligent, hard worker and you're trying to help people recognize Hey, you need to take time off. You do. Say more. 

[00:36:03] John: I, I am diligent, very diligent about taking time off too because you know, like I said, it's a 24 seven job and with ministry, like especially with my ministry anyway, it's not nine to five. 

Last week was Totus Tuus.

So, I was there five nights in a row till nine o'clock, nine 30. That's hard on me. Cause I'm, I'm a boomer. So, I'm getting up there in years. Um, so I just don't have the energy that I did even 10 years ago, you know? So that's, that's hard for me working nights and like during the school year, I work every Wednesday night and I'm there till 10 o'clock, you know, and then I have to go to work the next day.

So, it's important to get your time off. And I usually take one day just to rest. I don't do anything.

[00:36:50] Jim Jansen: Um, right. It's not like, it's not a day to like go like run errands. Like, no. 

[00:36:55] John: Yes. I take a day just to rest. I don't do anything. I may do the dishes or, you know, something like that, but I'm not out mowing the lawn and, you know, trying to work in the yard and get this done.

[00:37:06] Jim Jansen: I'm going to say something crazy. It's like, isn't that a commandment? I think I seen that written somewhere, but no, I mean, I love like the Jewish people would have it. They have the Sabbath and then they have a day of preparation that like, yeah, there is just stuff that is stacked up from the week and you have to run errands, and you have to finish this and close this up and wrap up this loose end.

And that's what the day of preparation was for, you know, like our Saturday. And then Sunday, you actually rested, not cut the grass or, you know, not that cutting the grass is a sin, but, uh, I don't know. For most of us, gardening maybe can be a hobby, but I don't know very many people for cutting the grass.

It's like, no, no, no, this is, this is my rest time. It's like, okay, whatever. 

[00:37:45] John: Yeah. Maybe a very cool zero turn mower, but for some people that might be relaxing for me. No. 

[00:37:52] Jim Jansen: Yeah. But whatever it is for you, you got, you got to actually rest. 

[00:37:55] John: Yeah. You do, you know, sleep in. You know, take 10 hours of sleep. Pope John the 23rd, he's, he's one of the people I love the most, probably even more so than Pope Francis, but I love Pope Francis too, but...

[00:38:09] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:38:09] John: ...he really balanced his responsibilities as Pope, and I can't even imagine the responsibilities of being Pope. I just, you know... 

[00:38:17] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:38:18] John: ...but he took a lot of time for rest and prayer and prayer for me is resting too, but he even took time to walk every day. 

[00:38:25] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:38:26] John: He didn't let his schedule. keep him from doing that. And he never let himself worry too much. You know, when he said his night prayers, I just love this and I try and live by this.

Um, when he said his night prayers, he would tell God, he was, he would say, well, I did my best. It's your church. So, I'm going to bed now.

[00:38:44] Jim Jansen: I love that. Like how cool is it to like the only person I can pass the buck to is God. Yes. It's your church. That's, that's awesome. Before we go any farther, just like, why does this even matter?

Like, you know, what's at stake if we don't figure out how to continue to learn and grow and forgive and heal and find new ways of doing things? 

[00:39:08] John: Everything matters at this point, man, you know, I think with some exceptions, maybe You look around at our churches, any given Sunday, and you can see that the number of people that are attending mass has dropped dramatically.

[00:39:24] Jim Jansen: Dramatically. Yeah. Most parishes, archdiocese, like, gosh, our mass attendance, unless it's because the real estate market and there's just all these new people moving in or, um, you know, large ethnic families and immigration, most of our mass attendance has dropped dramatically over the last 20 years. Yeah. Like in half. 

[00:39:45] John: Yeah. And it keeps dropping by generation. It wasn't just because of COVID. It's been going on for a while. Right. It made it worse. Although COVID did not help. 

[00:39:52] Jim Jansen: Yeah. So, what's the solution, John? 

[00:39:56] John: Well, here's what I'm thinking anyway. I mean, we don't really talk about the, the nuns, the N O N E S people either.
Those with no religious affiliation whatsoever. That's over 50 percent of our population now. And if we don't change the way we're doing things, it’s just going to get worse. I mean, very practically, if we are going to reach every person in this archdiocese, which is like a, what, a million people, somewhere around there, a million souls, add up all our counties, not just the Catholics, but everybody. 

[00:40:29] Jim Jansen: Right? 235, 000 registered Catholics, but a million souls. 

[00:40:34] John: We need to have missional communities. We absolutely have to. Uh, and I know that that's the Archdiocesan goal for six years. I think we're coming up on six years. I think it's going to take longer than that. I think it's going to take a generation, but our goal really is to make disciples of people because not just, those people who would attend on a Sunday.

Okay, we need to equip really are people that are engaged in the mass, and they have God in their lives, but they're God will put people in their lives. And if they're really disciples, they are going to. Talk to their people at work, their neighbors, their friends, their family, okay, about Jesus. You know, like you said earlier, um, you had a real issue with just talking about Jesus with people. I did. 

[00:41:25] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:41:25] John: Yeah. And I think a lot of us have that. 

[00:41:27] Jim Jansen: Most of us, even, even faithful Catholics would say, I mean, I love the Lord, but I don't know how to talk to him or excuse me. Well, sometimes I don't know how to talk to him and sometimes I just, I don't know how to talk about him to my friends. I'd like, it doesn't like, ah, you know, and anybody friends fine, but especially not my family.

[00:41:47] John: Yeah. That's the hardest. Yeah. I know it is for me. You know, but I mean, our church really has to have a passion to see more people come to know Jesus. And many of these people, they're not going to be at church on Sunday, but they would participate in what I like to call like a communal life. And that's very simply, barbecue, have people over for dinner, you know, things like eat lunch with somebody at work, whatever that is. 

[00:42:22] Jim Jansen: Right. Just simple friendship to build a relationship of trust so that maybe your real friendship with this person might be enough that you could introduce him to this other friend named Jesus.

[00:42:37] John: Yeah, for sure. You know, I was a, I was an automotive technician for 20 years. So let me just kind of use this analogy kind of to a car. I think the reason that so many of our movements in the church have failed, not that they weren't good, they were all good, but they were kind of like a car without an engine, a missional church or a missional community or a missional small group or whatever it is that's going on.

That's kind of the new car that everybody's talking about right now. It really, and I've seen the church go through different things, but that's kind of the new car that every, everybody's really talking about right now. But no matter how beautiful or shiny that vehicle is without an engine, it's not going to go.

Okay. Or without a big battery. We've got EVs. But something to power it, something to power it, the power. That's a good word. I love that word. So, what's the, the engine or the power of the church is discipleship. It really has to be. I mean, if we make disciples, if you make disciples, you will always get the church.

But if you try and build the church, you're rarely going to get disciples.

[00:43:45] Jim Jansen: Holy cow. Yeah. Please don't drop the mic because they're expensive and the archdiocese owns them. But like, that was a mic drop moment. Like say that again. Okay. 

[00:43:56] John: I won't drop the mic. If you make disciples, you will always get the church.

But if you try and build the church, you will rarely get disciples. I mean, take a look at the Archdiocesan vision here in the mission, one church encountering Jesus, equipping disciples in living mercy. I mean, I know why that vision is in that order. It never made sense to me until just recently when I was really looking at the website and I was looking back through the old five years ago mission statement and all of that and the little booklet that the archbishop put out.

But I know why that vision is that is in that order. As Pope Francis says this, he says, what has given you hope is what you need to communicate with others. And if Jesus has given you hope, you need to talk to others about that. 

[00:44:52] Jim Jansen: Amen. There's two groups that I want to give you a chance to kind of speak to.

Um, you said something earlier, they're like, I don't know, I'm not a, I'm not a humble man. And, I don't know, I can't speak to that, but I can say you're a loving man. And, you have known, gosh, almost all of the priests. Youth ministers, dearies, evangelization coordinators, uh, here in the archdiocese, many of them for many years.

And you know, they're kind, you know, some of them are probably going to be listening and there's others who, you know, they're outside of our, our little town, our little, uh, archdiocese, but they're, they're the same, you know, youth ministers, priests. I just want to give you a moment to speak through those uh, seasoned ministers of the gospel who are tired.

Maybe they're a little disoriented by all the changes. They're discouraged. Their story is a little different than yours. They wouldn't say, Oh, COVID was awesome. I loved, I just learned and learned and learned. Like What do you want to say to them? 

[00:46:01] John: Well, I'm going to say it again. Pray a lot. I'm sure most of them already do. Soak up as much as you can. Go to every workshop that you're able to. There's so many free ones out there. The archdiocese does them too. Learn as much as you can. You know, the most important thing that, that I learned through this in the last 25 years was to increase my prayer life and learn new and different ways to pray.

That is what has kept, for me, has kept the fire really burning for such a long time. You know, go to a CEC weekend. Take an alpha course. Do something for yourself that you're normally doing for other people, but do it for yourself. 

[00:46:45] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Be the one on the other side. 

[00:46:46] John: Be the one on the other side. Be the one that's, that's discerning through the prayer and adoration and how God is calling you to serve.

Cause it might change. You know, I've seen a lot of people change from being a youth minister to a DRE to a pastoral associate to whatever, and be open to the, you know what, God might be calling you to something different. It might be to serve the poor. I mean, that's part of our vision, living mercy. It's so important that we're living mercy, but are we living mercy within our own families? Are we living mercy with our children, your boss, your employees? 

[00:47:22] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh, the hard ones. Okay. Sorry. You're making me uncomfortable. We need to stop now. 

[00:47:27] John: You know, a lot of times we let our egos kind of get in the way and we get lost in the daily tasks of, okay, we have to get this done. Rather than really focusing on what matters and that's people show interest in people's needs.

What are their hopes? What are their dreams? That's the big things. That's the things that that make us. And I'd say, just remember through all of this, that we're called to be disciples and teach others what Jesus is. And get a coach. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Get a coach. 

[00:48:00] Jim Jansen: John. Talk about what's, what's your dream here? I know you're not quite, you're not quite ready for a retirement couple. I am. Well, I'm sure, but you get a couple of trips here, but I, I've heard you talk, talk about a dream. What's the retirement dream? 

[00:48:13] John: Well, the retirement dream, I would like to live in an RV and ride my motorcycle. And that's it. I want to live someplace where I don't have to mow the grass or shovel snow.

[00:48:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I, I love that. I just, the, the vision of like, you know, seeing you on your bike and some unsuspecting soul far from the Lord. Uh, and, uh, yeah. What, you know, watching you bring, uh, grace and mercy and, and healing to someone unexpected and then roll out of town in the, uh, in the RV. Yeah. That's great.

[00:48:47] John: Bikers need Jesus too. 

[00:48:49] Jim Jansen: Amen. John. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for. I mean, 25 years of service, almost every role. Um, really beautiful. 

[00:48:58] John: Thanks for inviting me. It was fun. 

[00:49:00] Jim Jansen: All right, everybody, you know, somebody who needs to hear this conversation. Maybe it's, maybe it's a young, some, someone just starting out as a missionary or a DRE or an evangelization coordinator.

And, um, they need to, they need to peek into the, into the future and, uh, the challenge that all of us face at some point, um, maybe I don't suggest you start the conversation this way. Maybe, you know, a seasoned or veteran minister of the gospel who's feeling a little stuck and tired, but the Lord tap you on the shoulder, show you who.

And, uh, share this out with a friend. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to the EquipCast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to Equip.ArchOmaha.org. God bless and see you next time.