[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the equip cast. All right. Today I sit down with Father Marcus connect and Jenny Wiswell of St. Gerald's parish here in Ralston, Nebraska. And we talk about how to build a clear path, specifically how to expand the clear path. Once you've done all the work of getting your path built and you are now ready to expand it.
They talk about what it's like to discern at that next level, uh, to communicate, to recruit leaders. You're going to find some real encouragement to stick with it, that it works, that it's worth it, uh, to be humble, to keep listening. It's a fantastic conversation and you're going to love it. Take a listen.
Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.
All right, everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. This episode today is part of a special series on how to build a clear path of discipleship. And today we're going to zero in on the last of the phases to build a clear path, uh, expansion. After you've done all the other work of assessing and discerning and building stuff, communicating, uh, then we talk about expansion.
So, for those of you who need the reference, a clear path of discipleship is a parish framework designed to help people take their next steps as disciples of Jesus. It's basically your plan for making and maturing disciples. Parishes that have a clear path know exactly how they connect with people, how they foster conversion, how they grow as disciples, and how they equip people as missionary disciples.
Uh, the concept's simple, but building a clear path doesn't happen overnight. It happens in phases. There's assessment, and discernment, and implementation, and communication, and alignment, and expansion. When you got that stuff built and things are rolling, then it's time to take a look and say, okay, what do we do next?
What do we deepen? What do we expand? And today I have Father Marcus Connect and Jenny Wiswell of St. Gerald's Parish with me to talk about their experience expanding their clear path. Father, Jenny. How are you? Great. Good. I'm so glad you guys are here. This is, I'm really excited to talk about this. I feel like you guys get the coolest of the topics because in some ways, expansion is like everything, right?
It's like all of it rolled into one. So, we get it. I have no idea where the conversation is going to go. We're going to talk about almost anything to get us started. Why don't you set some context for people? Like tell people just a little thumbnail sketch of St. Gerald's parish. 

[00:02:38] Fr. Knecht: Sure. Uh, St. Gerald, uh, is in Southern, uh, Southwestern Omaha.
It started back in 1957 in Ralston and roughly 20 years later, it was expanding, and they needed a new building. And so, they actually got land a mile and a half West and, which is technically in Omaha, and so in the 19 mid-seventies. They, they built St. Gerald West and, but they built it with the understanding that it needs to be even bigger.
So roughly 20 years later in, uh, in the late mid-nineties, they, they built what is the current worship area and what was built in the seventies. Is now the fellowship hall of that area. So, we, but we still have both campuses, and the original campus still has the school running nice and strong. 

[00:03:27] Jim Jansen: And the original church, right?
The little, how many hundred seat church compared to the big one? Uh, just a little bit West. 

[00:03:34] Fr. Knecht: Right, right. Yeah. And so that's basically used now for, as a chapel for the school kids and for daily masses. And with that kind of growth in the area, we've had lots of parishioners who are very involved in the community.
And so, we've, we've got lots of, of ministries that are there. And so, a lot of the stuff when it comes to the. To building a clear path, we, we've got to take, acknowledge what, what great work our parishioners have already done. 

[00:04:04] Jim Jansen: Mm hmm. Yeah, there was no shortage of stuff happening and good stuff happening in St. Gerald's. I mean, both because of size and vitality and all of that. Yeah, there's a lot going on. 

[00:04:14] Fr. Knecht: In 2016, Archbishop Lucas assigned two charismatic priests at the same time on purpose, on purpose right at St. Gerald, right around that same time that the archdiocese is, um, putting forth their vision. Uh, and so these two priests then, Father Mark and Father Michael were moving forward with building a clear path.
And I mean, but it took several, several years and then right as they were getting ready to roll out the clear path, COVID hit and just paused everything. And then I got assigned there as the associate pastor in 2020. So, we allowed this pause in everything to be a chance for kind of this first time of expansion.
Wait, what else needs to be on here? What is the Lord allowing us to do during this time of pause? And uh, and so we rethought the clear path actually and how we were going to communicate it and all that. So, it just gave us that first opportunity, so to speak, of the expansion phase. 

[00:05:25] Jim Jansen: You know, it's funny. I mean, I was going to ask like, how did you know you were ready for expansion, but in some ways you're like, well, I mean, the Lord put us on retreat.
It's just like everything was paused. And so, you kind of got forced back into a reflective discernment mode. What did you, what did you learn in that time? 

[00:05:44] Jenny: Well, I can, I can share a little bit of my experience. So, I came, um, at the very end in January of 2021, as father mentioned, you know, they had the words of the clear path, and they had the conversion engine up and running and been running for three years.
Um, but when I came, I saw a lot of gaps. 

[00:06:01] Jim Jansen: Yeah, you're coming in with fresh eyes. 

[00:06:03] Jenny: Yes. And I was... 

[00:06:04] Jim Jansen: As were you, Father.

[00:06:05] Jenny: Yeah. 

[00:06:05] Jim Jansen: In some ways. 

[00:06:06] Jenny: Yeah. 

[00:06:06] Fr. Knecht: Right, right. 

[00:06:07] Jenny: And so, that process of like, okay, getting to know this community, seeing that Alpha was making a huge difference, you know, was Insightful for me, but at the same time, I kept wondering, okay, but what's next for these people and how do we walk with them and how are they going to keep growing?
And I think I annoyed everyone because I kept asking those questions like, okay, we got to take care of these souls. They're meeting Jesus, but now who's going to walk with them? And so that was, that was the question that I came in with was, Lord, what do, what are we going to do here to keep developing?
This part of the, of the path. 

[00:06:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's huge. I love how both of you are kind of, you're coming into a process that's well in motion and one that's been, you know, paused by, by the pandemic, but you were able to kind of enter into that and honor that. And there's a very particular, you know, I mean father you alluded to the other archbishop signs, two charismatic priests.
You know, every parish has a community, every pastor and associate combo has their own kind of flavor, but there's a particular flavor and culture, which from the outside, I saw the two of you enter into embrace, but then say, okay, now what's next? How did that process go? Was it, did it, was it as easy as it looked from the outside?

[00:07:22] Fr. Knecht: All we had to do was flip a coin. Yeah, no, it was, there was intense prayer and discernment and conversation. And maybe the conversation was more intense. Yeah. Okay. Argument. Then, uh, then prayer. But there was, there was always a lot of prayer because what we do is we, we have the argument and then we'll, let's take that to the Lord.

[00:07:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:07:42] Fr. Knecht: Let him give us the answer. 

[00:07:43] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:07:44] Fr. Knecht: And it's just, um, there's a lot of, I almost want to say give and take, you just, we have to realize that. As we're going through the process that it needs to be a living organic thing, the clear path that expansion, I think, is all about recognizing that we're the Lord is not done.

[00:08:10] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:08:10] Fr. Knecht: He's, he's still has a lot of stuff. That he wants to show us and that he's preparing other people to create new things, new ways of revealing God's love to God's people in the time. And so, we always have to be open and aware of those things and whether or not they're the appropriate things for our culture, for, for our parish, for St.
Gerald. And so, one of the things that we've learned in the midst of expansion is even be careful about how we communicate because let's say... 

[00:08:49] Jim Jansen: yeah, say more. I love this. 

[00:08:51] Fr. Knecht: You know, communication in the sense of maybe you could even call it marketing. So how are we going to reveal this? What's it going to look like?
And you're going to spend money on that. Well, once you spend money on something, you're It can often feel, well, we better not change it now because we spent a lot of money on this thing. We made t shirts. Those cost a lot of money. So, you got to be careful about not locking yourself into whatever it is that you're creating, because really, it's the Lord who's supposed to be doing this.
And he is constantly, while God doesn't change, he changes a lot of stuff for us. Like we're the ones who are always adapting to what God is doing for us. So, we, for example, have. Ordered banners that don't have to change because they just show the overall aspects of our clear path. Right. 

[00:09:51] Jim Jansen: They kind of have like your mantra, right?
Which I love connect, encounter, grow, go. You've got cool icons. You've got them color coded. Yeah. 

[00:09:59] Fr. Knecht: There's a particular color scheme and all that. So that, that won't change. There's no reason for that to change. We've, we've actually changed it once before we did. Any of the, the marketing because of prayer, uh, we say, wait a minute, let's maybe this should be in a different order, which is fine, but now we're pretty solid on that order.
Right. And now it's a matter of, well, what goes into those four aspects of our clear path? Well, those are the things, the programs or whatever, that Could change, and we have to be open to that. So, the less costly sorts of marketing things, such as a brochure, those can spell out the programs and why we have these, what they do, because you know, printing on paper, we can, we can change that.

[00:10:43] Jim Jansen: Right. Right. I love it. I mean, you're almost like kind of like enunciating a principle here. I mean, you're talking very practically about like, Hey, that, you know, the, the big banners cost more money than the paper brochures, but there's a principle there. What you, you know, like how people, uh, But the process of conversion and growth and maturity, that doesn't change, you know, the, the articulation of like, this is a place where we're gonna, we're gonna help people connect.
We're gonna help them encounter Jesus. We're gonna help them grow as disciples. You know, we're gonna equip them and send them out to go. That's not going to change. You know, the process of conversion and how we make disciples isn't going to change, but the tools we use, those might. So, we're going to, you know, we're going to print that on paper.

[00:11:23] Jenny: Right. 

[00:11:23] Fr. Knecht: Correct.

[00:11:23] Jim Jansen: I love that. 

[00:11:24] Jenny: And we're, we're in a really neat time right now because, um, we're about to really, again, we've been, this has been functioning for a while. And... 

[00:11:32] Jim Jansen: yeah, give everybody the time, just a rough bit of the timeline. This has been, I mean, you said 2016 is when the Archbishop's vision comes out.
How long would you say you've been at this? 

[00:11:41] Jenny: Well, alpha started in. At St. Gerald in 2017, um, I know in 2020 they were running some missionary discipleship gatherings. So, there was some element of a follow up, you know, there's always been kind of a consistent Bible study. We have Nazareth groups. But wait for people to connect in small groups.
So those were there, and they've been there since probably that same time when, when father Mark and Father Michael came. Um, but a lot of changes happened, I would say over the last two years, as we number one, spent a lot of time in prayer and discernment and noticing who the Lord was bringing to us.
That's an important factor too, because Um, we, we have to, we, sometimes we try to force things and it's not the right time, but if you notice who, what the gifts are, you know, even our staff, what are the gifts of our staff that also makes a difference in the programming and, and you know, what basically where our mission field is going to be in the tools we're going to use for that mission field.

[00:12:42] Jim Jansen: Can you give an example of that Jenny? Cause I love that. I mean, you're saying the Lord. Shows us part of our discernment in this expansion as to what's next by who he get, not just what, but like who he gifts us with. Can you give an example to kind of flesh that out for people? 

[00:12:58] Jenny: Sure. I mean, I can say from, from my standpoint of, of entering St. Gerald, one of the gaps I noticed was, Um, okay. There's nothing really for moms. There's not a way to reach moms. 

[00:13:10] Jim Jansen: Sure. Yeah. 

[00:13:10] Jenny: And so that was a particular gifting. Um, my charism is pastoring my, my number one charism. And so how can I use that charism for that relational outreach piece for the beginning of the path in a new way?
Yeah. Um, so that's from my own personal life, even though I'm a director of evangelization and running these programs. You know, my gifting is, is pastoring, um, 

[00:13:32] Jim Jansen: and you are a mom, so

[00:13:33] Jenny: I am a mom. Yeah. 

[00:13:34] Jim Jansen: Easy to notice. 

[00:13:35] Jenny: Yeah. Um, I would say our, you know, we have, we have an incredible, um, person who was on staff.
He's now a volunteer. Um, he has a charism of teaching. And so how can we use his charism? And in different ways. Um, and he is very passionate about teaching on the charism. So, we have him leading called and gifted for us. 

[00:13:56] Jim Jansen: as a way to equip people when they're like, okay, I'm a disciple. I love Jesus. I'd love to share him.
It's like, all right, well, let's, let's, let's talk about your superpowers. 

[00:14:03] Fr. Knecht: Yeah. And we had, uh, another, uh, parishioner who has since passed away, but a very beloved parishioner who is full of energy and probably had the charism of hospitality and therefore everything. Uh, Becky Talmadge, uh, therefore everything that we did that she wanted to be a part of, she was there to say, okay, well, let me make sure that the space is very hospitable.
Let me make sure that there's greeters. Uh, so just. We, we almost didn't even have to ask her. It was, as long as she was aware of it and then she wanted to be there, she'd make the hospitality happen. 

[00:14:38] Jim Jansen: Well, and I want to highlight like what, how, it's like such a solid way to discern because it's one thing, I mean, at least for me, you know, like I always have ideas and I have lots of desires and.
I mean, I'm okay at, you know, like getting people with low boundaries to do things and help, but it's a different thing. That was a joke, by the way. Uh, it's a different thing to find someone whom the Lord has supernaturally gifted and to say, okay, we couldn't do this. Yes, there's maybe a natural talent at play there, but there's a supernatural gift.
And the Lord doesn't give that gift for no reason. Why has he given us This gift. 

[00:15:20] Jenny: Right. Very much so. 

[00:15:22] Jim Jansen: Okay. I want to go back to something you guys said earlier. As you're in this discernment. expansion phase. It's a little bit all of it. It's, you know, it’s communication, it's alignments, the whole bit. You talked a little bit about Jenny, I think you said, Oh, I, I'd ask the anointing, annoying questions about like, well, what are we doing about this?
What's, what's next for these people? What's the, you know, you, you point out the gaps. And father, you're like, Oh yeah, there's a little bit arguments. There's a, there's a process for this, which isn't just, you know, I don't know what the con, contrast is. It's not just, it's not just one person on a spreadsheet, or a couple of people just sketching something out.
I mean, there's a real wrestling and an honest conversation. I mean, there's almost an assumption. I mean, it's not maybe what we're trying to talk about today. Of a healthy leadership team being able to honestly assess and discern and converse together and, and through the hard stuff too, right? Cause the easy stuff, the low hanging fruit has already been taken care of.
Talk a little bit about that on the inside. Cause I think some people who haven't been there maybe have a tendency to think that it's going to be a lot easier than it is. 

[00:16:41] Fr. Knecht: No, it's so important to have the freedom to disagree with the team that is put together to pray about this, uh, because it's, you then take those disagreements into prayer. 
And it's opposed to taking them personally, right?
Instead of holding onto the disagreements and taking, um, offense by it, I, I give it to the Lord. And I say, well, what? What have you revealed because of, uh, someone disagreeing with me? Well, you've revealed that I'm not perfect. I don't have all the answers. That would reveal that I have, we have to be going to God for this and revealing that you've gifted each person in this room with something different and unique and you've called us here.
So, it's, it's important to trust not only God, but to trust each other in the room, even to trust enough. To disagree and sometimes even vehemently and sometimes in a, uh, to trust. Sometimes we disagree in a sinful way and we're like, okay, so now we got to be able to forgive, right? Okay. So, because we let emotions get away with ourselves.
And so, okay, while that was not appropriate, we're allowed to forgive each other and, uh, and strengthen one another and encourage one another to let's do better next time. And again, what are we learning from the whole? Process. What is God doing in the midst of this? 

[00:18:01] Jenny: Right. Well, I think our faith, like, you know, I mean, look at, look at the roots of our faith, you know, wrestling with God is part of our faith.
And so, there's a wrestling that has to happen with God. We wrestle not literally with each other, although sometimes I think that might help some of the tension. Yeah. 

[00:18:21] Jim Jansen: It's like a lot easier if we just arm wrestle about this. Yeah. That's great. 

[00:18:24] Jenny: Um, and that's just such a beautiful process. And that's.
Really been just an incredible gift for me is to see how the Holy Spirit works in that, but it just requires a lot of honesty. Um, for me, it does require in my case to be with men who are ordained. There are times where, you know, it, it feels very vulnerable for me to have to share my gifts as a leader.
At the same time, I know that they respect, and they receive that, but there's, there's risk taking involved is what I'm trying to say. Um, that. Is a beautiful process when there is, you know, when trust is, is there, but it takes work and, and it's, you know, been very hard at times, but, um, you know, there's been disagreements where we've had to just set them aside for a while too, and then come back to it because, you know, we're not, we didn't all agree on the same thing.

[00:19:18] Jim Jansen: Right? This, this might take more than, than a couple of days of prayer. 

[00:19:22] Fr. Knecht: Right. Because part of it is the Lord is working on us to remove our ego. Yeah. From it. Yeah. And, and that's really important. One of the most difficult things I think, uh, for, for me was when, as a group, we felt pretty confident in what the next step should be or what we should include.
And then it's a matter of, okay, in order for us to do this, we need someone else to help with that, which again, that's total reliance on the Lord, then you got to bring us that person. And so, whether it's going to be a hired staff member or maybe it's. A, uh, uh, a parishioner who's really excited to be able to use their, that particular gift that they have, um, as a volunteer to help out because they've got the energy to do so.
And then no one seems to be coming to our doorstep, whether we do post a position and it just like, Lord, we, we felt confident that this is what you want. So now it's a matter of. Okay. But it's still in your hands. Lord. It's all in your timing. 

[00:20:24] Jenny: It's a lot of waiting. 

[00:20:25] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:20:25] Jenny: Waiting and patience. 

[00:20:26] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And that's not, that's not a hypothetical story.
You're like, yeah, we were like, geez, this is what Jesus wants. Okay. We post the position. And then like, you're waiting. What did the Lord do as you were waiting? 

[00:20:38] Jenny: I took on more hours.
That's honest. 

[00:20:43] Jim Jansen: That's, that is honest. That wasn't what I was looking for but thank you for being honest. 

[00:20:47] Fr. Knecht: So, part of it is, well, patience, but creativity. Yeah. Uh, finding new ways to approach it. 

[00:20:56] Jenny: Starting very small. So, I'll give you a concrete example. Yeah, please. Under, under, we've spent a lot of time focusing on our grow part now.
Um, up until now it's been, um, the, the programs on our grow. Path while we offer a lot of things for the whole parish, right? We offer healing ministry. We offer missions. We offer Bible study. We have on our path that has been very limited and who has been invited into that. It was a select group of people that went through either, you know, our conversion engines essentially and had conversations and that they were really desiring intentional community.
Yeah. So now that this is going. into the whole church. This is going into the whole church. There's been a, in a sense, you know, like, Oh my gosh, well, who's going to lead this? I don't have time to do this. Right. So, it, for me, it was like, well, just start really small. So, one of our steps is discipleship quads under grow.
Yeah. Um, That process of being in a micro group and mentoring and discipling one another. And, um, you know, my heart was like, I'm envisioning hundreds of discipleship groups, right? That's the dream. Uh, we have four and they're all women and we don't have, at this point, we don't have men. That are leading it yet but being comfortable with the limitations.
I remember I had a conversation with father connect. I read, read something in a book about the ability to grieve the limits and ministry is very important. 

[00:22:24] Jim Jansen: Wow. Wait, say that again. 

[00:22:26] Jenny: The ability to grieve your limits, the limitations, and to be honest with God about those disappointments, but to also trust, trust in him and to know that he's in that.
And he knows it's painful, but starting small is okay. 

[00:22:43] Jim Jansen: Oh, that's so, that's so good. Talk a little bit about where you saw the spirit kind of leading the way. Because I mean, that's, you know, that's part of every phase, that's part of all of it. But I think, again, you know, I alluded to this earlier. The initial assessment can be, it's not always easy, but straightforward.
It's like, yeah, we have nothing that fosters conversion. We should think about that. You know, and the initial discernment is like, okay. Let's do something that fosters conversion and, you know, and, but when you get farther and farther into this process, the more obvious, the more, uh, easy, low hanging fruit, it may be intuitive things, um, you're more and more walking by faith.
Where do you just see the spirit coming into this and kind of meeting you? 

[00:23:28] Fr. Knecht: I think of a couple different aspects. One is realizing, uh, God is a much better chess player than I am. That's awesome. In order to be a good chess player, you've got to think at least eight moves ahead. 

[00:23:41] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:23:41] Fr. Knecht: I'm lucky if I can think two and I'm pretty sure the Lord thinks a million moves ahead.
So, to that degree, then I see the Holy Spirit working when. There's a program that we've been using in the parish that kind of surprises us as, wait a minute, this, this is it. This is the one that needs to fit in this spot. This will work. Uh, or I also see when we are lifting up our needs to the Lord, okay, this is a position that, that we need to hire someone for Lord.
If you really want this position, then you're already preparing someone for this position. Yeah. And. And it has happened where boom, there's a person like basically dropped on our laps that we didn't have to wait too terribly long for. And then when that happens, like, Oh, I'm glad the Holy Spirit was working faster than us.
There's other times when it feels like we're ahead of the spirit. Of course, we never are. And therefore, we're waiting a long time for something. And that again, gives us an opportunity to be patient, to be creative, uh, and to stay focused. On what is right in front of us. What are the things we can do instead of focusing on the things we can't.

[00:25:00] Jim Jansen: So, I want to put you guys on the spot, slight little, little change of direction here a little bit. I mean, I think one of the hardest things for, um, I'll stereotype a little bit, but let's say for like a suburban parish, right? Where, you know, it's medium to large sized, there's a lot of stuff going on. How do you, how did you keep simplicity and clarity?
In your clear path at the same time that you realize we need to add some stuff to fill in gaps. 

[00:25:30] Jenny: You have to make the main thing, the main thing all the time. 

[00:25:33] Jim Jansen: Ooh, say that again. I love it. 

[00:25:34] Jenny: You have to make the main thing, the main thing all the time. It's, you know, I think about Mary and Martha and when Jesus says, you know, Mary has chosen The one thing.
And so, what is, you know, in the work that God has called me to do as an evangelization and discipleship, I have to constantly go back to, is this changing hearts? Are people being transformed? Some of these ideas are really good. They're enrichment. They're not part of the, of the path. They're not going to lead someone into that next step.
And I think that the, the things that we have on our path, um, will do that. They're not complete. They're in process. They will evolve. There might be some additions and some subtractions, but the concept of it, I feel like, um, will be very fruitful. But There's just a lot of distractions that happen in parish ministry.
And a lot of times people will come forward and say, why don't we offer this? 

[00:26:36] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And you want to insert legitimate need here. There are people who need this thing. 

[00:26:43] Jenny: Yes. 

[00:26:44] Jim Jansen: Jenny, what are you going to do about it? 

[00:26:45] Jenny: Right. And that's our hope is that as people become formed and transformed, they will be able to listen to the Lord's call in their life.
They will have a deeper conviction for where he's calling them because they're going to listen to that compassion. It… conviction starts with compassion of where you're called. Um, and that they will have the freedom. We would, we need to give them the freedom to start it, but we don't, we don't have to lead it ourselves.

[00:27:11] Jim Jansen: It doesn't have to be a clear path. It doesn't even have to necessarily be a parish ministry. 

[00:27:16] Jenny: No. 

[00:27:16] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:27:16] Jenny: And so, they can do that, but, but we have to keep focusing on what will move the greatest number of people into a life transformed by Jesus. 

[00:27:24] Jim Jansen: I want to zero in on that because you, I mean, it was like super subtle, but very important.
It sounds like one of your criteria to say like, okay, what makes it onto our clear path? What stays on our clear path is, is it, is it helping people? move and grow? Is it transforming them and maturing them? 

[00:27:43] Jenny: Yes. 

[00:27:43] Jim Jansen: How can you tell? 

[00:27:46] Jenny: Well, um, I'll just give you a practical example. We had, um, so like I said, I've mentioned missionary discipleship is part of our, um, one of the, of a program.
It's not a program you can purchase. It's homegrown. 

[00:27:59] Jim Jansen: Yeah. So, a homemade program. And what is it? Thumbnail sketch. What does it do? 

[00:28:02] Jenny: We've actually modeled it after what the archdiocese is doing in the Mentorship Program. 

[00:28:06] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, I mean, we were blessed to Play around. St. Gerald's was very kind to let us test stuff out.

[00:28:11] Jenny: And, um, you know, serving as a mentor, I learned a lot for in this. And I realized that those, you know, when we sat down and we said, look, we're going to, we're going to keep this going. It's really important. It's going to be different, obviously, from what the archdiocese is doing. It's less intense. They're not studying books, but what are the essential pillars?
What helps people live as disciples? How do you integrate their life? So, there's that human formation, their spiritual formation, intellectual formation, right? Pastoral formation, all of these different things that we were starting to look at. But we just had our last missionary discipleship gathering. And, um, one of the things when I first got to St.
Gerald is we rarely heard from them. Like we would ask like, what's God doing? And people were very quiet. And now I think we could have spent the whole meeting really talking about what, what is the Lord doing through you? We are seeing that this is working. You know, we provide that space for their formation and their discernment, their community.
But they are truly living it out and it, it, it's all different pieces, right? Because they have to, they're receiving it through preaching, through the message, through by being part of our evangelization ministry. But you know, people were sharing, um, about their jobs and connecting their daily job. Like what's a small way that they're living as missionary disciple.
One, one gentleman said, I say, God bless you to every single client. Hmm. And the conversations that come from that or the way that people respond, you know, right. I mean, it's very, very simple, but it's, it is making a difference. I had another man say, um, you know, I come, he comes to everything we do in evangelization.
He's, he's, he has a, uh, a charism of service. He probably has a charism of helps. He's incredibly helpful to me, but he's like, I realized that I'm doing all these things and coming and being part of evangelization, but I'm not yet. I'm not really inviting people yet. And that's where I feel convicted. Uh, I mean, and like the list goes on. 

[00:30:06] Jim Jansen: You can see their hearts and their minds changing and their habits. Maybe do you have a story of somebody who's kind of like experienced several steps on the journey, right? Like they, they kind of started, they were, they were an outsider, maybe not a parishioner or maybe a very loosely, not real active, uh, parishioner. And they were able to kind of grow and mature through several steps where you just, you just create this space for connection and encounter growth to happen.

[00:30:37] Jenny: Okay. So, I have a story of a longtime parishioner. Um, he was already involved with like, um, men's the Knights of Columbus and he was an usher. Um, so probably some natural leadership abilities, but anyway, he was one that, um, really didn't think alpha was for him. And I think it was in 2021, maybe, maybe. 2022.
He finally, there was some testimony that moved him to just say, I'm going to try it. Okay. But I know everything because I go to church and in the night and, uh, well, the Lord had different plans for him, and he was so moved. He encountered Jesus's love so deeply, he met the Holy Spirit for the first time in a profound way.
And he started attending, you know, our healing ministry that we have, um, just to receive the love of the Holy Spirit. He decided to come back and be on the alpha team. Well, one of the blessings of that is that that's a natural formation process for people. 

[00:31:40] Jim Jansen: It is a training. 

[00:31:41] Jenny: It's a training and leadership and ministry and learning how to rely on the Holy Spirit.
So, I'm watching this man come in guarded. Don't need this. The Lord, he's encounters the Lord, um, and the transformation begins. And so, he is set on fire. Like he starts coming to everything, um, on the path that we have. He's coming to missionary discipleship. He continues to be on, you know, every single alpha team or whatever we're doing for our conversion engine.
Um, he is, he's there and he's on the team. You know, he just told me recently, he said, of everything I do here, cause he's very involved of everything I do here. Nothing brings me greater joy than to sit as a host of this table and to lead other people to knowing Jesus more. And he's just so, he's so humble about.
You know, basically where he was like, not thinking he needed this and how much the Lord just keeps drawing him in, um, into, you know, knowing, knowing the Lord greater, knowing the Holy Spirit, knowing the power of the Holy Spirit, knowing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but also just into leadership. I mean, he never imagined he would be doing this. 

[00:32:55] Jim Jansen: Right?
Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, and I appreciate it's not just, I mean, praise God and fundamentally, right? We, we, we have a responsibility for our neighbors, but the clear path isn't just, it's transforming the parishioners from within. Long time faithful pillars of the community are finding Oh, the Lord has something more for me.
Father, I know you have a story too. 

[00:33:24] Fr. Knecht: Yeah. I'm thinking of a longtime parishioner, a woman who would, she considered herself a pew potato, someone who just is there in the pew. She shows up for mass day, wake in and week out. And that's about it. But it was through the charismatic preaching of Father Mark and Father Michael that the Holy Spirit, uh, touched her heart, and she started to open up to the Lord, and she started then to, to see how, what she's really longing for.
She's longing for deeper friendships and connections with the people around her. So, she started to open up and, um, sought those fellowship moments and then that gave her the confidence to go and make sure other people were experiencing fellowship moments. So, she started to go through, uh, things that are on our way of discipleship and those would affect her.
The Holy Spirit really was breathing life into her at that time. And she started to want to grow in getting to know more about God and to know God more and would continue to be going through the things that we have offered. Um, in our parish, including becoming a part of our pastoral council, which created our strategic plan. And she was very instrumental in the kinds of things that were included in the strategic plan that would.
Focus on fellowship and really helping everyone, no matter where they're at on their journey, feel included, feel like they are wanted here at St. Gerald and wanted by God. And I think through that, she, she's definitely exhibited this, uh, conviction of. Being a mover and a shaker. I mean, someone where she's not just going to rely on, uh, the pastor and the associate pastor and the staff to go out and find more people to bring into the parish, but that herself, she is going to start inviting that she's going to start talking about God and how God has been moving in her life to her own family.

[00:35:40] Jim Jansen: Right. 

[00:35:41] Fr. Knecht: And 

[00:35:41] Jim Jansen: it's not just father's job. It's my job. 

[00:35:43] Fr. Knecht: Yeah. It's she recognizing it's her job. And, and yet it's, it's in conjunction with what God is already doing in her life and what her openness to what God wants to say to her family through her. So, it's not like her taking the reins and doing everything.
It's her realizing I'm giving the reins over to the Lord, but I'm still in the carriage and I'm going where the Lord's going. And so, she is going. um, specifically we didn't have a youth minister and while she herself wasn't going to be become the youth minister, she was then taking, she was looking at what the Holy Spirit was already doing, not only at St.
Gerald, but around the archdiocese with Journey of faith and seeing how we've now we're put together in a family of parishes We've got a what I like to call a brother parish that They've got a youth minister. So, let's see if we can Utilize Their program that they have and they were very open to it.
And so, she is now going to those youth nights and So that she can see what they're doing. She's inspired by what's going on there. And then she's the mouthpiece for us at St. Gerald and she's getting more and more families and youth into, into that youth program. So just recognizing the openness to the Holy Spirit and how that has caused her to, to jump in fully into what the Lord is doing.

[00:37:15] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I can't help but notice how part of, I think, what drew you to these stories is these aren't just parishioners who are encountering the Lord for the first time or encountering St. Gerald's for the first time. You have those people. There's a lot of those people, but what, what is moving your heart are people who've been a part of the community for a long time, who are finding more, who are finding the Lord, who are finding the spirit, who are moving the heart.
from, I don't know, maybe like one of the hardest conversions from being a disciple to being a missionary disciple. Uh, that's, that's beautiful. 

[00:37:54] Fr. Knecht: And I find that's the importance of the clear path is that instead of it just being one more thing, Oh, we've got a lot of cool stuff. So, what's, instead of it turning into an American consumerism about what's the next best thing, what's the next coolest thing that we can do because I'm, maybe I'm interested in learning more about the Lord, or maybe I'm just like the fellowship type of activities.
I just want to do the next. Coolest thing it's not a what's the thing that's going to get me closer to God. Yeah. Yeah. Here's a clear path that I can it's just easier for me to discern. 

[00:38:26] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I mean, it's for most of us It's just overwhelming. I don't know what's next. I don't know where to go and there's lots of good stuff, but to Like to have a community that say like here's what it means to be a disciple Here's what it means to be a missionary disciple and when you're ready You We're going to help you.

[00:38:50] Fr. Knecht: Right. And that's why it's so, it's important to make the distinction of what goes on the clear path or the things that, that are geared towards movement. 

[00:38:57] Jenny: Yeah. 

[00:38:57] Fr. Knecht: So maybe I'm, I am a committed disciple of the Lord, but I'm not ready to. Go as a missionary disciple. I'm not, I just don't feel confident or comfortable yet as I've just recently said, yes to God, to, to go and convince other people or to help them, um, say yes to God too.
I'm just not there yet. I feel like I need to, um, learn even more, right? So, there would be then Bible studies. There would be other small group activities. Um, maybe, uh, for men it'd be that man is you or, uh, Uh, for women, maybe women of grace, just things that help you grow as, as a disciple, right where you're at.
And then maybe after a couple of years, it's okay. You know what? There's the Lord is still, uh, I'm getting a sense of restlessness to, uh, there's, there must be more. He's calling me to more. Well, okay. Now he's calling you to go now, whether that takes a few years, or it just takes a few weeks. It's just a matter of recognizing.
When it's time to grow. And when it's time to for movement, the Lord is stretching me. 

[00:40:03] Jim Jansen: Well, and where does it happen? There's like, I mean, I can't tell you how many people who are, who feel that call, but they don't know where to go. Like I want to go, I feel the need to be equipped, but there's nothing here for me.
And you know, God bless Father Mike Schmitz and cool podcasts online and things like that. But the ability for like people who know me, who love me in my parish community, they're like, okay, you're feeling that call. We can help you get ready to go. We'll equip you for the journey. 

[00:40:32] Jenny: Right. And I feel like what we have on our path, um, is helping people to recognize that number one, they, every single person is called to be a missionary disciple.
Yeah. Number two, God will be with you. You're not doing this on your own. You're, you're joining with God. You're partnering with God. Um, and the church is here. Um, the, the staff, the priests were here to build up that ministry that you are called to. And it's just the smallest of steps. You begin with the smallest of steps.
Yeah. You look about, you know, where is Where is that circle of influence? How, what are the words you're using? What are the small things you can do to be that witness? And I, and you know, this, again, the smallness of things is important because I think we get very overwhelmed with how big things have to be.

[00:41:24] Jim Jansen: Especially at large communities where you feel a responsibility, it's like, Oh my gosh, there's so many people. 

[00:41:29] Jenny: Right? Even if you're meeting with 10 people, if your staff listening to this and you're meeting with 10 people who have begun the, you know, the, the, the process, the, the path at your church and maybe they've gone through an experience of meeting the Lord deeper and now what, even if it's those 10, you know, to give them small equipping will make a difference.
Because it's the Lord's work and he will send them on mission. So, 

[00:41:52] Jim Jansen: so I mean, our time is just totally flown by here, but I want to give you both an opportunity just for some final advice, you know, kind of imagine that person who's listening, maybe imagine yourselves, you know, three, four or five years ago.
What's, you know, what's, what's some kind of final advice for people who are, who are at the point where they're, they need to expand their clear path. 

[00:42:13] Fr. Knecht: Recognizing that this It should be a living path, a breathing, changeable path that the Holy Spirit is going to bring to you, um, something new eventually.
And it's important for, uh, everyone to be open to that, open to the newness of life. Of the breath of the Holy Spirit. 

[00:42:38] Jim Jansen: Beautiful. Jenny. 

[00:42:40] Jenny: I would say, um, invest deeply in people and love and love them while, and while we can be sometimes affected by numbers, attending things, um, to just always be reminded that The Lord loves each person that is being drawn, um, you know, to, to you and your ministry and what the church is offering, um, and to, and to really invest in them and to build them up, um, and to trust, let go, not hold too tightly, not try to control everything.
Um, we can, we can be overly controlling, um, in our ministries because it's just helps us feel better about life. But, yeah, but. Allowing you have to trust people as they are discerning to where the Holy Spirit is, is leading and guiding them. Um, and I would say the other, the other piece of ice is just to persist even when it's.

[00:43:38] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Yeah. Before, before we turned on the, on the mics, we were just chitchatting and you're like, it's just so worth it. It works. Yeah. 

[00:43:49] Fr. Knecht: Yeah. Perseverance is so important, but perseverance not in white knuckling yet. Perseverance in prayer, perseverance in trusting in the Lord. And I love what you said, Jenny, investing in people.
Loving God's people. Amen. Because the clear path, you know, just using that phrase can confuse people like, Oh, it's this linear one step, one step, one step over after the next. No, no, no. People are going to take a few steps forward and then they're going to take a few steps back. And we just, we still have something for them.
Even if they fall all the way back to the quote unquote, beginning of the path, that's, it's not necessarily a falling. It's a, it's providing something that meets people where they're at when they're there. 

[00:44:35] Jim Jansen: Oh, so good. Well, we're going to link to the St. Gerald's website because your way of discipleship, the images, connect, encounter, grow, go, they're beautiful, color coded.
Um, you know, for those who won't be able to see the banners in person, uh, this is the, this is the next best thing. So, we will link to that. Thank you. Thank both of you. You guys have been at this, uh, working hard for many years and kind of joined, yeah, joined in, in a movement and, and made it your own. So, Thank you.
Thanks for being with us. 

[00:45:03] Jenny: Thanks for having us. 

[00:45:04] Fr. Knecht: Thank you. It was a pleasure. 

[00:45:06] Jim Jansen: All right, everybody. You know, somebody who needs to hear this, a little encouragement, uh, for, for them. So, when you get to your destination or done walking the dog or whatever you're doing, go ahead and share it out. Thanks everybody.
Thanks for listening to the equip cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip.archomaha.org God bless and see you next time.