[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody, welcome to the EquipCast. Today I sit down with Bishop William Joensen of Des Moines, Iowa, and we have a really personal conversation as he talks about his vocation, the influences on his life, the vision that he has for his diocese, helping his people rediscover their missionary identity and the challenges that, get in the way. Talk about listening and persuasion, Learning to close the loop, how to be with people in grief. It's really a fun, personal, enlightening conversation. You're gonna love it.

But before we jump in Today's episode is sponsored by Faith & Family Life Catholic Ministries. FFLCM and their Pathways Formation Suite offers an integrated set of resources for lifelong family-centered faith formation. To learn more about the Pathways Suite of resources and Faith & Family Life Catholic Ministries, visit fflcm.org.

Bishop William Joensen, welcome to the EquipCast. How you doing today?

[00:01:35] Bishop Joensen: Good to be with you again, Jim. We've engaged before, and you indulged me on my radio show, and it's happy to have a turnabout here. It's fair play. So, wonderful.

[00:01:43] Jim Jansen: You are the bishop, which bishop of Des Moines?

[00:01:47] Bishop Joensen: The 10th Bishop of Des Moines.

[00:01:48] Jim Jansen: I was gonna guess ninth.

[00:01:49] Bishop Joensen: Yeah, I mean, Des Moines was carved out of the Davenport Diocese, 1911. So, you figure bishops last about 10 years on average. I'm hoping for a little more than that, but that's all right.

[00:02:00] Jim Jansen: How many years are you in now?

[00:02:02] Bishop Joensen: So we're approaching seven years in September, and it's been a whirlwind. Five months before the pandemic hit, and that certainly delayed a little bit of my getting to meet the flock and get out there with the people.

Scrambling as we all were to kind of figure out how do we love each other and protect each other try to honor what was being commanded to us, but also not to being cowed in our faith at the same time. So it was really a bonding experience for me with the staff that I inherited, and I think it really, one of the fruits of that was a trust that we built up in each other and, as I saw different gifts manifested among the pastoral center staff, but also I think, just, working with the clergy and others also.

[00:02:41] Jim Jansen: Do you see any particular gifts or challenges that are persisting from the pandemic?

[00:02:49] Bishop Joensen: I think, there's the public health factor, and I think a lingering wariness and suspicion of people who, were appointed to be looking out over the common good and the welfare the public health and things. And even my own physician said, you know, it's gonna be hard for him to accept, at face value some of the things that were there.

So I think that it reinforces maybe a tendency towards suspicion of government or public authorities. That spills over a little bit to the church, too, in, how some may have seen us as complicit, too. So it even came up as I was talking with some of our permanent deacon candidates in a surprising way to me.

So, again, we were all doing our best. But I also see and I think this is something that is pervasive, the longing for connection, the desire to belong. And then also a sense that, well, if maybe some people felt misled by persons in authority we're also looking for what's most true and enduring, and ultimately the message of Jesus and the ultimate things that the church is supposed to point to, not to herself, but to ultimately the one who revealed himself and reveals the Father to us.

[00:03:54] Jim Jansen: Yeah. If you're looking for connection, oh, Jesus. If you're looking for a trustworthy leader, Jesus. Like there's... that's pretty good. I wanna give you a chance to introduce yourself. Every episode I always open with a like, kinda like what's your story? How did you meet the Lord? How did you, first hear the call to mission? Bishop, tell us a little bit about your story.

[00:04:14] Bishop Joensen: Well, okay, I'll try to give you the short version here. But you had mentioned offline that, you had the German-Irish roots, and that would be similar for me, as for many Midwesterners too. My dad was actually first generation German. His parents immigrated from Danzig, Germany, and so he grew up in the Bronx, and that whole New York experience for him.

So he was a city kid, was not Catholic. But as he hung around with his good gang that was there in the South Bronx they'd go by St. Jerome's Church and some of the guys, the Irish guys would say, "One day, Al, we're gonna get you," in terms of bringing him into the faith. That took time for him.

After high school and a couple years of college, he joined the Air Force was stationed on Guam. And I think it was really the men he saw there who were just men of integrity, joy, and I think that really opened his heart to that. So as he heard Iowa State had a good engineering school, landed in Ames, Iowa, central Iowa, so I am a native of Ames.

Ultimately, as he was courting my mom, this is something he decided to do on his own. My Irish mom did not set that as a precondition for him in that way too. Dad would say of my mom "Gee, she was dirt poor," because her father died when she was five. Her mother, single mom, making a go of it as a hairstylist, and then her one brother three years younger.

So who was a tremendous influence on me, my late uncle, Monsignor Ralph Simington. Joyful, gregarious guy. I always said he was like a hug in potentia, you know, because he had he, he had the body mass, you know, and everything else. So when he laughed it resonated. But just as a kid, you see, he and his ability to laugh at himself, the way in which priests, whether they were maybe making their way to head off on vacation, related to each other.

And so they were real human beings, and there wasn't maybe a mystique. I think there was a core respect, but it wasn't, demagoguery or anything. So that was, growing up then in a college town. The Iowa State campus was our playground as kids, and it was a different era, you know, where like, even in the summer, my parents would just let us go to the university pool on our bikes till 10:00 at night and ride home, and they thought nothing of it, so it wasn't stranger danger in the same way that parents now have to be more vigilant, but the faith was there. Student center, '60s and '70s, you can imagine some of the things that were breaking loose there in the post-Vatican era.

[00:06:29] Jim Jansen: Did you do worship there s your parish?

[00:06:31] Bishop Joensen: Yeah, there's a St. Thomas Aquinas Student Center, which is ablaze with the Holy Spirit now. Father Kyle Digmann is doing a wonderful job. And he overcame the impediment of having me as one of his seminary professors, so that's a good thing. And so, you get the sense of your own spiritual father, but very much involved in the mass.

I would've said if five or six years old I would wanna be a priest, like some of us, celebrating mass, in our own way.

But that... Yeah, but quickly turn in junior high, seventh grade at the public school vocation day, I followed the ABC sportscaster around for the evening sportscast, so, Jim Nantz would be my alter ego if I could. I think we're the same age,

[00:07:09] Jim Jansen: Well, I mean, but I see you have, you've gotten to use that interest in media, right? In your role. We talked at the start, you have a radio show also then distributed as a podcast. Like you actually, you got both.

[00:07:24] Bishop Joensen: How about that? I never thought about it in those terms.

[00:07:26] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, I know it's not sportscasting, but still.

[00:07:29] Bishop Joensen: Yeah, no. So, I had a health scare as a senior in high school, which you know, I think it scared me. They thought there was cancer. It kind of was a, I don't know, a dark night I wouldn't say, but night and day was kind of switched. But ultimately it was not what they anticipated it to be, so whether there was a healing or not, the church was very present with the anointing of the sick in, in the midst of my fear.

So it kind of reinforced my interest in medicine, so by the time I got to university, it was all about the preparation to be eligible to go on to med school.

So the med school door opened up. I was in a coed medical fraternity in Iowa City, Iowa, and I think through college, it was all about, "Hey, God, I've got this," and I still practiced my faith, but I was not going deeper in my faith. I was kind of on a plateau, if you will.

That changed in Iowa City partly 'cause of a roommate I had who the first Lent he said, "I think I'm gonna go to mass every day." I said, "Well, I used to do that when I was, in school in Ames." And that really just was one of the ways in which God activated my heart to really love the Eucharist, to believe, as I had an experience when I was 10 or 11 years old, this is the most real thing in the universe.

He is the most real person in the universe, and that was seared on my soul. I think there are these pivotal experiences you can have at a certain age. You don't know, what you're gonna make of it.

You don't necessarily say, "Oh, I'm gonna be a priest," or anything else, but God enlists that. And so you talk about sowing seeds God is doing that all the time.

[00:09:01] Jim Jansen: I love it. You are so a product of Iowa.

[00:09:04] Bishop Joensen: And I think, just as a barometer of where my faith was, when I was a sophomore at Iowa State, Saint John Paul came to the Living History Farms and to Cumming, Iowa, to the Irish settlement. In 1979, Feast of Saint Francis.

And my family was going. My uncle could get some nice passes to get us in, as a priest who was distributing communion. And I'm like I don't know if I'm gonna miss class," that's the kind of guy I was, you know, to go see this. And my family's like, "No, you're going."

[00:09:33] Jim Jansen: Yeah, the pope's in Iowa. It's like, "But I've got biology."

[00:09:36] Bishop Joensen: Yeah, exactly, I got lab during this.

[00:09:38] Jim Jansen: Oh my gosh, that's fantastic.

[00:09:39] Bishop Joensen: Yeah, and so that shows you where my priorities were.

and I, Yeah, I have to be able to laugh at myself with that. But again, that was a moving day, but it didn't lead me to say, "Oh, I need to do something more in my faith." That came later. So again this burning in my heart wasn't going away.

It filled me with peace in everything, including my coursework the relationships within the medical fraternity, ranging from atheists to pastors' sons and daughters, some of whom ended up getting married while we were there. But I just had to say, "I have to address this. I don't feel called to be a missionary, doctor, priest, a Jesuit.

I feel called to be a parish priest." So taking the leave, and one thing led to another, and at no point, and it's God's mercy to me, did I ever feel like looking over my shoulder and say, "Oh, I need to go back." But again, one more thing God enlisted in terms of, further study eventually as a priest bioethics and other things, 'cause that was the language I spoke.

[00:10:31] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, yeah, and it's all, it's all coming back. It's not like the emphasis on healing and biology was lost. It just took expression in a different way.

[00:10:40] Bishop Joensen: Amen.

[00:10:41] Jim Jansen: Man. I love that. Did you have to wrestle quite a bit as you're making this transition, as you're going from "Oh, the pope's here, maybe I've got class," to really embracing this call to have the Lord at the center of your life?

[00:10:54] Bishop Joensen: I think that was the fuel of the Holy Spirit in my second year where I really became more free and ultimately fearless in saying, "This is what I'm about. This is what's on my heart." Got the derision of some of my classmates, but it was interesting. At least a dozen or more male classmates said, "Hey, I thought about the priesthood at one time."

So that's latent there, and that's something I would hope, given my work with students and seminarians and everything else, is that every Catholic young man at least once considers this life, a call to priesthood, women to religious life. That it's a real thing, 'cause God wants our happiness.

He wants our happiness. It's not downsizing our life in any way.

[00:11:34] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, I mean, thank you for saying that 'cause I feel like sometimes the first part of the sentence is "Please consider the call," and there's some version of "'Cause we're desperate and we really need priests." But you're like, "Please consider the call 'cause this is your happiness. There, there is a joy being offered to you." Thank you for that.

[00:11:54] Bishop Joensen: And I know that sense. I was like, "Oh man, I gotta... Do I have to take one for the team?" My mom stayed out of it. She didn't want a mother's vocation, she left me alone, and my

[00:12:03] Jim Jansen: Ooh, I, I, think I know what you mean. When you say mother's vocation, what does that mean?

[00:12:07] Bishop Joensen: That means that because the mom would love to have a priest son or grandson, and she's so devoted, and she's putting that forward and, the influence of the feminine in our lives, which is so vital. But then in terms of trying to placate or please somebody. And so thank you, Mom. She opened up at one point saying, "You're doing great. Just wonder what God wants." And I was like, "Oh, there she goes," you know? I was like, "Yeah, you're right. I should really think about it that way." And that catalyzed something.

My dad had a harder time at first. But then he became my biggest supporter.

So I've often said because of my mom's faith, I think I would always be Catholic, but were it not for my dad's faith, I don't think I'd be a priest, let alone a bishop. His masculinity, his humility he was always ready to admit his own limitations, maybe almost too much sometimes, and sell himself short. But

[00:12:58] Jim Jansen: and I think about your uncle and your father, like witnessing this very real personal intentional masculine faith. There's a lot of data that says like that is the difference maker, when young people see men committed to the faith, their fathers in particular.

[00:13:14] Bishop Joensen: Yeah. And he is ongoing, evolution in that because, he was, a Germanic Prussian guy, he was a great usher at church, he could pack those pews, with people whether they wanted to move over or not. But he became the Eucharistic minister to the homebound and the care institutions, and he'd tear up distributing the Eucharist, so there was that tenderheartedness as well, and that's one of the photos I have on my desk, is him offering communion to somebody. So yeah.

[00:13:41] Jim Jansen: Wow, that's beautiful. And that is often a real development for those of us with, Germanic blood, to let ourselves be moved, to let, the emotion show.

Okay. I wanna pivot here. I wanna give you a chance to talk about your time in Des Moines, your vision for the diocese. But it would probably be helpful there's kind of a controversy that I wanna give you an opportunity to address. There are some people in Nebraska who are claiming that Iowa has bad corn.

[00:14:07] Bishop Joensen: Oh, those are fighting words. You're just waving the red flag before the bull here.

[00:14:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah. My son actually has a T-shirt that he wore for the last, Nebraska-Iowa game, which we lost. But it's like it says, "Iowa has bad corn" T-shirt, which I thought was hilarious.

[00:14:24] Bishop Joensen: Yeah. As a kid suffering so many annihilations by the Cornhuskers of Iowa State, you know, there were a few glimmering moments, but and the Iowa fans at the time always thought we always wanted to beat them so desperately, but I would've taken a victory when they were still in the Big Eight, Big 12.

[00:14:39] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, the tables have turned. I mean, I grew up in the '90s, most of my youth, it's like, Nebraska would lose one game the entire season, and it's not that way anymore.

[00:14:50] Bishop Joensen: Just, my Irish mom who can be, obviously passionate, zealous Iowa State basketball fan, and when Fred Hoiberg left, to go to the Bulls and did not work out for him very well, and people are like when the job opened up again, "Do you want Fred back?" "No, he could just... nebraska can have him."

[00:15:07] Jim Jansen: Oh, that's great. I mean, I miss the days of Nebraska-Oklahoma rivalries, but something does feel right about a Nebraska-Iowa rivalry. There's so much similarities to the states that there's something... At least I'm starting to embrace it, kind of like a, the playful, growing rivalry.

All right. I wanna give you a chance, just generally speaking, give us a little bit of background on how you see the church in the United States today. Parish renewal, the New Evangelization, you're a student of history, obviously a man of the church. Give us just a quick kinda like where are we at right now? 'Cause I think most of us lack a context to really appreciate the moment that we're in.

[00:15:52] Bishop Joensen: Well, this is one lens from one corner in my perspective. I don't claim to have the comprehensive view or the last word by any means, and Jim, you've certainly labored in the vineyard in these areas as well. But, I think, what did emerge from Vatican II, the Second Vatican Council in, '65 Paul VI, speaking of the, the reason for the church's being is evangelization.

John Paul certainly picked up that baton and talked about the new evangelization, which I think is just the church hearkening back to its DNA, to go out and make disciples of all nations, and announce the gospel fearlessly, and with it, allow the signs that would accompany disciples doing that, healing, acts of power.

Ways in which, is it charismatic in a kinda conventional sense, the manifestations of the Holy Spirit? Or ways in which then people begin to understand each other and hunger, and there's something that they're yearning for that is met by that. So, I think it happens around the world in different pockets, we saw, the end of the Cold War and what happened there, and Poland is obviously a crucial ground for what happened with John Paul and that transformation, that it was the faith of the Polish people which enabled them to bear all things. South America, Central America Africa, oh, my goodness, I mean, thank you for the church in Africa, which the church in Des Moines is very grateful for our international priests who are serving here at the generosity of bishops and others, so showing us the truly Catholic composition of the church going on.

[00:17:21] Jim Jansen: Well, and if I could build off that, good friend of mine, Joseph Williams Nigerian missionary with FOCUS. He's in Nigeria, family running a very successful textile company, and he feels this call to come to the United States and serve as a FOCUS missionary.

And this is when FOCUS is very young, very new. We didn't know how to do the paperwork, and it was a crazy journey for him to get here. But when he does, he is able to be the spark for just a really authentic embrace of the Holy Spirit, apart from what might be, termed as a specific spirituality.

Sometimes in the United States, if you're into the Holy Spirit, it's like, "Oh, well, you are charismatic." And there's this assumption about, being kind of like a niche-y spirituality, which I mean, God bless. I would say I'm charismatic and trad-y and all the things, you know.

Just, just try to be Catholic. But there was something about, I think, the experience in the US that things were a little bit fragmented, and he comes in with this beautiful Nigerian spirituality. He's like, "I love all members of the Trinity." And we're missionaries. The Spirit is the power, right? And we're like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, Yeah. We know that." So anyway, shout out for the African church, what the Spirit does when we embrace Him.

[00:18:37] Bishop Joensen: Because I think the perennial challenge is when people begin to see upward mobility this is certainly in the United States, one of the wealthiest countries in the world that can begin to anesthetize the faith, and that the saturation of worldly needs and manufactured needs, thanks to those who, in a market economy are trying to spur more and more desire, but not genuine human needs, and meet those, and that's only amplified now with the technology and social media and everything else. So, all right, Chesterton says, America has the soul of a church but that soul was I think being chilled in many respects.

And I think that's the 20th century. Add to it the kinda shifting morays, and matters sexual and others that followed after the '60s. And, individualism and subjectivism that, you know, the things that would bind us, that Tocqueville found so apparent in the American ethos were no longer the fabric of our country, as we're each, entitled and, all in the name of the gospel of tolerance.

So I'm not trying to get too preachy here, but I think that's... You know, don't, don't tell me or don't propose something to me. Let me just kinda figure it out. But as Benedict XVI said, then we're all adrift and that's not a comfortable place to be, so we look around, and we do become like lemmings just adhering to whatever the, the popular morality is.

[00:19:58] Jim Jansen: Well, and add to that, for those of us in the Midwest, we have this additional thing where we're settled by immigrants, and we build these beautiful little churches all a wagon ride apart. And I'm guessing the numbers are similar for us. Most of the counties in the archdiocese are rural. We have an urban center in Omaha. You all have an urban center in Des Moines. But a lot of rural. For us, like our rural counties reached the climax of their population in like 1939, and most of them are back now to their 1890 population levels.

So you have all of the secularism and, individualism and ism and ism and ism, and all the kinda massive changes in the way we view morality and hearts and minds and family size. And then in our rural areas, there's just half the number of people that had been there. And all of this, of course, comes to a focal point in the parish. How have you been trying to respond to these challenges in your own Diocese of Des Moines?

[00:21:02] Bishop Joensen: I was ordained a priest of the Archdiocese of Dubuque, where evermore, this kind of wagon ride apart, the church structures. A little bit more distance, I think, as we move out from the Des Moines metro into southwest Iowa, where it was kind of proto Bible Belt really, some of these places where there are counties which have only one Catholic church in them. So you know, a kind of oasis but kind of stark, one of my early predecessors, a bishop of Des Moines, would send out the chapel car to Villisca, Iowa, and famous as home of the famous ax murderer.

But the Ku Klux Klan would tear up the rails to try and prevent the chapel car from making its way there. These are things I didn't... I always associated this with the Deep South and other places, but you know, even making a foray here into Iowa. So people asked me when I became bishop, "What's your vision?" It's like, "Well, check with me in a year or two or three, let me get to know the people even more.

[00:21:56] Jim Jansen: Right. 'Cause the history matters. I mean, when the Ku Klux Klan was, trying to inhibit the chaplain, even when they're still not active, that leaves a mark, in the hearts and minds of people that are like, "How do we approach our faith? How do we share our faith?"

[00:22:09] Bishop Joensen: Corning, Iowa, home of Johnny Carson famous Nebraska, son of Nebraska. Iowa will claim him for the, his early roots, but They had, what was tantamount to a derecho. Was it a tornado or just 90 mile an hour horizontal winds? So I got there early and took a chance to walk around the town, just survey the damage and kind of pray for the people there.

The church was spared, the parish hall not so much. But not a single evidence of, the kind of devotional, a Mary statue in the yard or a little grotto or St. Francis or St. Anthony.

So I mean, it's wow, it's, this really is Catholic foreign territory for many, and so it's the little things like that, we start paying attention. So, the more we grew in our desire for this, my predecessor, Bishop Haites, had made some initial arrays about trying to advance a, a vision but, he reached his retirement age.

So we really kind of jump-started this and started a process of discernment, of listening, it was about the same time that synodality was beginning to surface, Pope Francis and everything else, which, brought with it its own questions and reservations. But, in terms of listening to each other, believing in the capacity of the baptized to exert leadership and creativity and to have initiatives that are there, and what are their heart s- desires?

What are the signs that they're seeing? And so we began to gather people. We had help from Dan Ebner of St. Ambrose University in Davenport.

[00:23:39] Jim Jansen: Yes, I know Dan. He's great.

[00:23:40] Bishop Joensen: Yeah who helped us to practice an intentional listening, he calls it humble inquiry. But, that went on for a year and a half or more.

[00:23:47] Jim Jansen: Wow. A full year and a half of listening. That's great.

[00:23:50] Bishop Joensen: 4,000 people upward, plus or minus, and all age groups, churched and unchurched, Hispanic, Anglo, diff- different, Asian communities our African immigrants who are here in the Des Moines metro. So, things began to crystallize in terms of what the priorities, for us were, and, we began to articulate that.

And as one person among the body of Christ, but one entrusted with the yoke of leadership as a successor of the apostles, ultimately to say, "What am I hearing and seeing?" And to give voice to that as a pastoral plan began to emerge.

[00:24:24] Jim Jansen: What did you hear?

[00:24:25] Bishop Joensen: Young people on everybody's heart, no matter what age. Young people, they're our hope, they're our priority, and how do we continue to invite them to know Jesus, to love him to see this great adventure, the pilgrimage of life as something that is not a solitary sojourn, but something that, to do together. And how do we continue to speak to them in ways that they can relate to?

And we just can't do this for them. I, if I learned anything being at the college for 18 years, the quickest recipe for failure about any campus ministry initiative is to have the staff plan it and try to execute it. If they're not co-creators, if they're not the ones bringing their portion of spirit as young people to bear good luck with that.

[00:25:11] Jim Jansen: I love that you're referencing You helped do chaplain campus ministry at Loras College. Yeah, sometimes, I work with parishes, or a diocese. It's like, "Hey, can I just point out as we sit in this boardroom, we're talking about young people and none of them are here." Which usually, starts with a shudder and an eye roll, and then people are like, "Yeah, you're right." Even if we happen to guess what they want, what are the odds that's gonna be credible if they're not a part of the process? What else did you hear? What were you surprised to hear?

[00:25:46] Bishop Joensen: What was I surprised to hear? Wow. I think, I don't know if it was sh- shocking so much, but, I think there was a hunger for more retreat experiences. We have the wonderful Catholic youth camp, but some things had grown dormant in terms of that or, things like Teens Encounter Christ or other youth retreat experience, Youth 2000 or things, had kind of fallen away, and I don't think by any intent, but just maybe, a kind of gradual, withering on the vine a little bit.

So I mean, that was very much something. And I think we all want to be about hospitality and welcome, but, how people, either perception or not, did not feel welcome in certain churches. I think in contrast to that, our St. Ambrose Cathedral is a microcosm of the church universal in terms of the the African, Asian, other nationalities but how are we really incorporating them into the lifeblood of the local church. So, I think people who maybe, you know, their identity, you know, as they, they see themselves either they're not all in with the church and, how, why would this be a place that I'd wanna be?

And trying to listen to some who, whether perhaps their own identity in terms of orientation or other pieces of this the heartache of parents who'd committed and provided resources for a Catholic education, and their young people had not continued to sustain their discipleship after high school or college. And so, the great pain of many parents and grandparents, I perdures today.

[00:27:18] Jim Jansen: So as this vision developed, what parts of it do you find challenge some of the ingrained ways of thinking? If this is gonna be a work of the Spirit one of the ways that we kinda know that it's the Spirit is that there's something, consistent, but there's always a newness and a little bit of a surprise, a little bit of a gentle, loving challenge. Where does this vision challenge ingrained ways of thinking or old habits, ways of doing things?

[00:27:49] Bishop Joensen: A question we continue to wrestle with, Jim, and that's something we challenge each other as staff because, I think, you may have alluded to it in maybe some of the, the prep for our conversation here, but, just as we spoke about with young people, we don't wanna just, visit a program upon them. Our pastors, our parishes, whether, urban, suburban, rural, they don't need the, the Diocese with a capital D, say- "We're here to help."

[00:28:16] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Yeah, for some that don't know, when you are in central government in the church, it sometimes, your goal is okay, if I could just not become an IRS agent or feel like that, right? If I can, if when I show up on a, a parish doors- doorstep if I can say "Hi, I'm here to help," hopefully I don't get an eye roll. Like it's just a, I need to reorient my service to get there.

[00:28:40] Bishop Joensen: Which, the humble inquiry helped to kind of dispel some of that. The staff went out, visited with pastors and other leaders just to listen, to take in, and to see maybe where their disappointments or they were not feeling supported or what their most acute challenges were. I think that went a long way to building goodwill and for some restoring trust, that we're partners in this, and that the diocese is a local church composed of local churches.

So, I think that went a great way to going forward on this. The priorities, creating a culture of welcome and care, inviting people to an encounter with Jesus Christ, particularly young people, accompany youth into discipleship, young adults into full participation, disciples for the domestic church.

So, the parental vocation, the primary formers in the faith, and communicating our message boldly and clearly. I think if I went back to your earlier question, this is something that kind of surprised me, I guess, is that people wanted the faith unvarnished. They wanted to know, even if they didn't agree with it, what does the Catholic Church proclaim, teach, and believe is true as revealed by God, and they wanted that. They didn't want it obfuscated or equivocated, in any way, so soft, so because we don't want to offend you. They wanted that message out there, and that this isn't kind of hubris or arrogance on the part of the church. It's the church being docile to Jesus and the Spirit. We've got good news. People have a right to come to know the gospel, to know Jesus, and, we're denying them something that is their birthright.

[00:30:17] Jim Jansen: Thank you for bringing that up, 'cause I know that phenomenon as well, where you see and hear this call for "Give us the truth. Give us the gospel. Give us Jesus." And here I am, a professional missionary you're a bishop, and for just a half a moment, I'm a little startled by that desire.

Why I should be startled by that desire? My whole life is predicated on the assumption that people have a desire, therefore I'll be a missionary. Where do you think that surprise comes from?

[00:30:49] Bishop Joensen: Maybe , the perception, that is pervade through media and others that the church is part of the problem, religion is part of the problem of what ails society in that way, that narrative can easily be visited upon our young people. We've all been the source of eye rolls or scoffing, and I'm not just talking about me with my students in the classroom, you know? but uh, there are people that, you know it just makes them very nervous to even begin to go there because they're not comfortable with that. And so we pick up those non-verbals. "Oh, maybe I need to dial it down a little bit," and rather than having this be the invitation, and I think this is where some of the successful evangelical movements of our age, Alpha, Evangelical Catholic Divine Renovation, get over it Catholic people. Come on. This is your mission.

[00:31:37] Jim Jansen: It it's like the cultural cloud seeps into us. It's like it's in the water, and we start to doubt that it's really good news. We begin to at least subtly, subconsciously believe that the gospel is a burden, and in fact, we're offering freedom and joy and peace and love and we really do have good news to offer. And again it's always a little conversion moment for me when I find myself slightly surprised by how responsive someone is to the gospel, how deep their desire is for prayer or for the Lord. I'm like, "Oh, I shouldn't be surprised." And the fact that I am is an evidence that I've started to believe the lie that it's not totally good news.

[00:32:24] Bishop Joensen: Amen. Amen, brother. I've told this story before that, our great CFO of the diocese, Bob Larson, a former executive with John Deere International Credit has taken this on as part of his life calling. But, he was taking part in a parish, St. Francis of Assisi, evangelical Catholic kind of sponsored, sharing among couples and everything else, and trying to kind of reorient them. And lo and behold, he went through the weeks with his wife, and then within a matter of a couple weeks, at least four people came up to him, he's not wearing a collar or anything else, and started asking him about faith-related matters.

And he's like, "Wow," and maybe before he would've said, "Well, here's some people at the diocese you can call and talk to." But he was ready to have that conversation, and to, to do that and go there. And he doesn't have the catechism memorized, and he may have listened to some of Father Mike Schmitz's a Bible or catechism in a year but he could go there.

[00:33:20] Jim Jansen: Well, and he's a witness, right? He's experienced something and he can, with perfect authenticity, talk about his experience of peace, joy, forgiveness, love, whatever it is. I don't know Bob's story. I don't know too many bishops that refer to their their CFOs as "The Great," I really wanna meet him. But, he's got this experience, and the way you tell the story, maybe I'm connecting the dots wrongly here, but it's like it's seeping out of him and people are coming to him with questions because they can see and feel something radiating from him.

[00:33:57] Bishop Joensen: Amen.

[00:33:58] Jim Jansen: Man, That's fantastic. I--

[00:33:59] Bishop Joensen: Could I go back?

[00:33:59] Jim Jansen: Please, yeah.

[00:34:01] Bishop Joensen: As we put together our strategic visioning team, and it was about two dozen people, more women than men, and more lay than clergy, but when we were beginning to roll this out, parishes are in different places with some of their initiatives and their kinda evangelical spirit, but what we didn't wanna say is, here's like, the snake that swallows the gopher, this is the big gulp.

You have to drink it all in at once. We are encourage you to discern on your own. We're really trying to respect subsidiarity. What are the needs you see? Where are the potentials? What's on your heart? And here are some resources, we call them toolkits, of things that would give you initiatives and strategies, some tactics that could inspire you, could get you going, get some traction in some of these areas.

Discern one or two of them, because this would be again, a kind of occupational hazard for clergy is that, oh, here's one more thing from the diocese being imposed on us, and I'm already, working 70 hours a week just trying to, be there for the people sacramentally and otherwise.

So one crucial question, and it's a hard one to answer, is what do we need to let go of? What is the Lord asking us to do? Jesus, he, healed the sick. People brought them from all around the town, laid them at the doorstep. The evening hour comes on, and they're still waiting, I imagine, the next day, 'cause he didn't get to everyone, and he presses on to the next town because what have I come for is to proclaim the Kingdom of God. Jesus himself, in his humanity, did not meet every human need. He could have, but what's the one thing? FOCUS asks that all the time, right?

[00:35:42] Jim Jansen: Right. But he's an example for us in that every, a need didn't necessarily mean a call, and he's keeping the call of the Father front and center. Let's dig in here because these priorities are beautiful. They have to come to life in these parish communities. I want you to say more about like, why not just have a big diocesan initiative?

It seems harder it's probably more fruitful, but to have... say parishes, "Listen, here are our priorities. Here's the vision. Here's some resources to help you engage youth, communicate the gospel effectively," et cetera, et cetera. Where are you called? Why do it that way? Why not just say, "I'm the bishop, everybody's gonna do it. Everybody's gonna do Alpha." We both love Alpha. But why not lead it from the diocese?

[00:36:39] Bishop Joensen: I really don't think it's an abdication of my role. I think, to empower people to be at times, a Barnabas, a son of encouragement on this, and to witness, even as my participation in the Alpha International Conference, to a radical openness, and to go into that discomfort zone where we're not just operating with things we know that we're proficient with.

Calling people to that radicality of their own baptism because the young people can sniff out a perfunctory, or kind of a, a dutiful way. They're looking for authenticity. Is this someone who's in love with what they're about? Do they love their vocation?

[00:37:18] Jim Jansen: And you don't have to be cool for young people. In fact, sometimes if you look at like high school and college, sometimes it's the dorkiest, most awkward teachers and professors who really win the trust of young people because they can see an authenticity. I mean, they can see the dorkiness too.

They're like, "Wow." It's like, "Are you really gonna ever wear a different tie?" Or whatever. It's like they can see it, but they can also see deeper to the love for the subject matter, the love for them.

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All right. Let's get back to the conversation.

We've talked, kinda danced around this a little bit. I don't think we're intentionally dancing around it, but like change is really hard.

For all of us as individuals. You talked about, like sometimes we have to let some things go. How do you let something go? How do you know it's like the Lord is inviting me to let this go so that I can say yes to really engaging young people more fruitfully, just as a for instance?

[00:40:28] Bishop Joensen: I think we have to be attuned to the movements of the spirit in us. Where is this some ennui, a tedium, a sense like this is becoming harder than it needs to be. Maybe this is more me than you, God. It's not just we encounter, winds of resistance or something, but we notice the joy quotient is being sapped out of us, everything we do has some dimension of necessity and duty in that--

[00:40:53] Jim Jansen: But it's not all supposed to be hard all the time.

[00:40:56] Bishop Joensen: It's not supposed to be hard. And, Jesus endured the cross for the sake of the joy that lay before him, I mean, there's joy in this, and young people, they will pour themselves into things that ask enormous sacrifice of them, not just sports or other things, if they see that there's life there, there's life, and that, like you said, those who accompany them, adults and mentors, are finding life as well.

So, I mean, to make a change to acknowledge death grief is hard, and that's what we're seeing in some of these smaller communities where the church, the post office, and the Casey's convenience store are the last three institutions that are there. Their kids have all migrated to, Omaha, Kansas City, Minneapolis, St. Paul, and--

[00:41:43] Jim Jansen: The schools have been consolidated and they've been driving 45 minutes for groceries for decades

[00:41:50] Bishop Joensen: And there's no maternal care. The OBGYN clinics have closed in these areas. So there's gonna be some death there, and so if there isn't the human substrate for the gospel to be proclaimed, we're not abandoning people, but, can we begin to cluster and collaborate?

Can we be church in a way as you alluded to. People will drive significantly to go to Walmart or to do their shopping. Yes, by necessity. But can they discover neighbors of a new order? And I think the pandemic maybe helped us to experience something of that, where you know, a Zoom connection is not a surrogate for real human face-to-face encounter, but it does meet something in our hearts.

[00:42:35] Jim Jansen: Well, and I'm back to the, the global church. 'Cause I feel like naming the kind of the pastoral planning reality, again, for those of us with, rural components where these small communities have just over decades kinda melted away. Drawing those communities together. That feels like one of the biggest pastoral challenges for many of us in the Midwest here in the church. 'Cause there's so much grief and misunderstanding. Those communities, facilities are so deep in our hearts and our lives. Literally it's where we're encountering our families and when we're encountering the living God. So to then drive to the neighboring town that used to be our sports rival and begin to go to the church there it is actually hard. It's a challenging transformation.

[00:43:24] Bishop Joensen: And one of the things we've done, we didn't really have a regional or a deanery structure in the Diocese of Des Moines. So that's something that we've reactivated, not just to kind of, erect the bureaucracy in this, but where are ways in which clergy themselves are having, encounters and that fraternal solidarity that Pope Leo called them to in this most recent exhortation.

Because if we can't model that with each other, how are our laypeople gonna believe that it's credible? So I think in the 14 months or so some of the deaneries are becoming vibrant places of relating. Other places not so much, so there's a hit-and-miss where, we have to continue to be intentional and encourage but also challenge some to look beyond themselves.

And I think, like this most recent consecration of our country to the Sacred Heart of Jesus by our nation's bishops, the 250th anniversary of our nation, one of the deaneries the priests went around, the eight priests of that deanery, to each of the churches and then they celebrated mass to the Sacred Heart hung out.

There was a meal and they noted how the people were heartened just to see the priests together of that particular area. It's not all about the priest, but the priest is an icon and a symbol who's sacramental in himself.

[00:44:40] Jim Jansen: Well, and that brotherhood is so attractive when you see it. But often we don't get to see it because, Father's gonna be in this small town, and Father's gonna be in this small town, and they don't get to see each other, which is a challenge in and of itself, but then we don't get to see them together interacting as brothers.

[00:44:57] Bishop Joensen: I think there's all sorts of potential for youth interaction, and surely there, the big events, NCYC, National Catholic Youth Conference next year World Youth Day, but that's a small, community within the larger diocese. We'll have at least 50 or more, and it's interesting how passionate our immigrant communities, our Africans and others, to take part in World Youth Day, and they will clean up the minor league baseball stadium all summer long to make the money to have that experience of the church.

[00:45:26] Jim Jansen: That's awesome.

But can we not replicate that on a more local level, within the deaneries so that I'm not alone? I'm a Catholic, I go to public school, and I feel like I'm not a liar. No, I'm part of something greater than myself, Yeah, that's part of, my background with Focus, the Seek Conference, part of the power is they're like, "Oh, wow, I kinda thought I was the only one." And when they realize they're not alone it's really, it's encouraging. And that's one of the reasons, I think it's one of the most compelling reasons that we would gather together and group together.

I feel like sometimes we sell it as though it's well, the cost of maintenance and insurance, and it's like, okay, fine. Yes, if efficiency. But no, it's good for us to be together. And there's something very powerful when we can come together through larger kinda geographical spaces and recognize, okay, we're Spartans, they're Bulldogs, but actually we're brothers. There's something there.

[00:46:21] Bishop Joensen: There's more than a few houses divided, venture to Council Bluffs, a lot of Husker flags being flown. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I inherited the lay-led Christ Our Life Conference every two years. It'll be here at the KC Center in September. 5 to 10,000 people will gather for 36 hours, andthat has an animating spirit of its own.

[00:46:41] Jim Jansen: How many years now has that been going?

[00:46:42] Bishop Joensen: I would put it at 16 or more. I credit my predecessor Bishop Pates and the group that got that going. John Bishop, former FOCUS alum, The Forge, gathering of men on a monthly basis, sometimes with national speakers, but men of all ages. And then to gather and have 1,200 men on a Lenten Saturday, come together and pray and hear speakers, but just to experience fraternity and transcending traditional, progressive, any of those things. I think it's just, what the Knights of Columbus have been doing for over a century. But I think it's, we're we can continue to reinvigorate that.

[00:47:19] Jim Jansen: I have to ask you, as we get close to closing our conversation here the responsibility to lead the church through these transitions, as our populations shift, as we rediscover kind of our missionary DNA. It's always been there, but we're, reactivating it.

As we go through that, how do you handle the responsibility of being a bishop, trying to lead the flock through, whatever metaphor you want, from the current state to greener pastures? You're expected to have all the answers. You're like, " This is my first time being a bishop." How do you handle that?

[00:47:56] Bishop Joensen: Well, it starts in the engine room every morning, in the chapel before the Blessed Sacrament. I think most of my brother bishops would say the same thing, the formation that we've experienced, which has instilled a rhythm of life, a rule of life, but then to open that up and to know that the power of the prayers that are being offered for me, whether it's just mentioned in the mass, but then as in many places, the Seven Sister movement of women who will create a holy hour each day for their pastor or for bishops, I think they know, we're marked men, and so three times seven is 21 women praying for me in the course of a week.

But I don't think it's only because I was an official in basketball and football. It helped me to go there in environments where some people were gonna like what you had to say and some didn't or your decisions, and maybe gave me a little bit more of a thick skin

than I might have by nature, 'cause we all like to be liked, and we don't really seek out conflict unless there's something pathological in our psyche, but people who can speak candidly to me, and this is one of the things that I think, both as a college faculty member, college faculty all think they're their own chiefs or colonels or whatever, and you're not gonna bring them on board just by an edict or promulgating a policy, there has to be persuasion and acknowledgement that there are alternative ways to do something. But If We're gonna go forward, we have to choose one. We have to choose one. And folks, that's what God has called me to for the sake of this, we can't have multiple pilots at the same time, so I think the trust that people can disagree with me and that they know there's not gonna be payback, know, for that, and I'm not gonna hold them in a vindictive spirit I think that's grown over time. And once in a while, I have to say I blew it. I made a mistake, and I apologize for that. And can we go this way together now?

[00:49:51] Jim Jansen: What have you learned from your mistakes? You can be explicit if you want or general, but what are the mistakes that you look back on now and you're like, "Man, I am so grateful for that mistake because it taught me something"?

[00:50:04] Bishop Joensen: Should have something at the ready here.

[00:50:08] Jim Jansen: I know there's too much

[00:50:09] Bishop Joensen: Yeah. Well, and f- yeah. Some of it relates at the personnel level, and so, you gotta kinda keep that, in confidence I think there were times where people were hurting and I didn't just allow that hurt to be what it was. Uh, Sometimes I responded. I hopefully as a spiritual director have cultivated listening skills, but sometimes, wanting to immediately, offer some course of response, and sometimes you just have to allow people to be where they are and not to propose something, right away.

I think learning to close the loop moreto communicate with people when a decision has been made or why a decision has not yet been made to convey that to people, I think that's something I need to do a better job. It's something I learned from some of the feedback that I had as I kinda had a six-year pulse of what's my time here and what's the clergy feedback.

[00:51:03] Jim Jansen: That is so good. I'm thinking about, I don't know how many of our listeners are bishops. I know a couple are bishops. But for everybody to know that "You know what? When I'm with somebody who's grieving I just need to listen and sometimes just let them be."

That is golden pastoral wisdom. And I too know the mistake of trying to say something andit's like just being present. So I mean, that rings very true. And then just closing the loop.

[00:51:29] Bishop Joensen: I'll add one here maybe example is, There was an initiative for a healing and deliverance ministry here in central Iowa, and tried to give kind of provisional permission for it. You had some charismatic actors at the heart of this, and that's not to denigrate the validity of the charismatic movement.

But I think there was more trust than verification there. And even though I worked with our vicar general and tried to, establish guidelines, I think we were premature in giving blessing it and baptizing it as one of the initiatives of our diocese. And unfortunately some of the persons who are at the core of it were not, properly formed and were not operating within the ways that would allow that ministry to flourish.

So I think, as we go forward, because there's definitely a need for healing and deliverance we need to provide something. I think I need to be truly episcopas, overseer throughout things than simply saying I'll bless it, and, kind of let people, take their own initiative.

So there's a tension there because where are we empowering people to exercise their baptismal vocation, but where for the good of the body is there someone who's oh, continually vigilant in saying, "Is this of the spirit or not?"

[00:52:39] Jim Jansen: Yeah. No, I mean, it's... I just get echoes of it as a father, right? Just to really watch, and now father of young children and older children I can feel a little bit of that tension to allow freedom, but also to watch and to oversee and to really guide.

Thank you so much for your time for the conversation today. I feel so much of what you shared, just the being present with people and grieving the challenge, closing the loop in communication. I can't tell you how many times I failed to close the loop 'cause I didn't know what to say yet, and sometimes just saying, "I don't know yet," is enough. So, thank you.

[00:53:17] Bishop Joensen: Thank you, Jim, for your fatherhood and for your evangelical spirit and, as God has set you embarking on a new voyage here may it continue to flourishnot only for your family, but for the family of faith in Nebraska and beyond.

[00:53:29] Jim Jansen: Amen. Amen.

All right, everybody. You know somebody who needs to hear the conversation today. Maybe they're confused about which corn is better, Iowa or Nebraska, and Bishop Joensen, can set them straight. somebody who needs to see that the pectoral cross that bishops wear, that there's men underneath there.

Sometimes it's like a referee's whistle. sometimes it's a sign of the Lord's love. So, when you get to your destination, when you are safe, share this out with a friend. And again, thank you, Your Excellency. Thanks for being with us.

[00:53:58] Bishop Joensen: Blessings and peace to you and to all our listeners.

[00:54:00] Jim Jansen: Amen.