[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. So, I just sat down with Michael Hall. Uh, Michael is the author of Intentional Accompaniment. He works for Catholic Christian Outreach of Canada. And, uh, Michael and I sit down, and we just take a deep dive into how do you build a healthy small group movement? How do you keep it unified?

How do you keep it healthy and growing? Michael talks about just the importance of a missionary mindset, what that does. to inspire all of the growth and health in your small group movement. He talks about the 1, 2, 3, 4 model, just the layers of support necessary for a small group movement to be healthy.

It's a fantastic conversation. If you Are part of a small group. Uh, if you're helping to lead a small group movement in your parish, uh, if you're just a participant, uh, and you kind of feel the Lord nudging you to think about maybe starting a group on your own, uh, you're going to love today's conversation. Take a listen. 

Hey everybody. Welcome to the equip cast a weekly podcast for the archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go. 

Michael hall. Welcome to the EquipCast. How you doing today? 

[00:01:24] Michael: Great. It's good to be back with you. 

[00:01:25] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I was going to say that. Welcome back to the EquipCast. Yeah. One of a handful of alumni, veteran returning guests. So, thank you for being back. Okay, Michael, you are the author of Intentional Accompaniment, an Apprenticeship for a New Generation of Builders.

You've worked for CCO Canada. Tell us a little bit about yourself. And then something, something we don't know, but should, about Canada. 

[00:01:53] Michael: Ooh, all right. Uh, okay, well, a little bit about myself. Yeah, I've been working for CCO, Catholic Christian Outreach, for over 20 years now, 21 years. Just finished my 21st year.

[00:02:02] Jim Jansen: Wow. 

[00:02:03] Michael: Yeah, that's, That's a long time. 

[00:02:06] Jim Jansen: It is. I, I did, I did campus ministry for 18 years. 

[00:02:10] Michael: That's right. 

[00:02:11] Jim Jansen: That's a long time. 

[00:02:12] Michael: Yeah. 

[00:02:12] Jim Jansen: In the campus ministry world. I mean, that's like 50 years at a regular job. 

[00:02:16] Michael: Pretty much. 

[00:02:16] Jim Jansen: Cause there's so much turnover. Everybody's so young. It's like, wow. Are you okay? Do you need to sit down?

Are you already sitting down? 

[00:02:23] Michael: Okay. Well, you know, it was interesting talking to some of our new staff recently and, uh, and telling them about what it was like. As a campus missionary in 2004, 2005, 2006, that sort of timeframe, you don't tell them like, yeah, students didn't have cell phones necessarily. 

[00:02:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:02:43] Michael: Some did. 

[00:02:43] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:02:44] Michael: But you didn't know if you could call them. You didn't know if they, like, what their minutes package was, if they were going to answer during daytime minutes or if it was only evenings and weekends. 

[00:02:52] Jim Jansen: Oh yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:02:55] Michael: Texting was not a thing that, you know, Receive or return a text message.

[00:03:01] Jim Jansen: Oh, yeah. And there were still dorm phones. 

[00:03:03] Michael: Yes. Oh, I had the University of Ottawa's. I'm pretty sure those numbers, uh, 613 564 1700 or something like that. 

[00:03:12] Jim Jansen: Just burned into your memory. 

[00:03:13] Michael: Yeah. Cause I called it so many times and, you know, you just said, Oh, just, I don't need the door number. Just give me your extension.

[00:03:19] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:03:19] Michael: Yeah. So, lots have changed over the years. Lots has changed as CCO over the years. You know, we were at, when I joined, we had four campuses. Now we have 17 campus teams and... 

[00:03:27] Jim Jansen: Wow. 

[00:03:28] Michael: Yeah. Lots of things have changed. So yeah, I've been around for 21 years. I live in Ottawa, the capital of Canada, uh, originally from Vancouver out on the West Coast.

[00:03:38] Jim Jansen: And Ottawa is on the East Coast. Learned that this morning. 

[00:03:40] Michael: That's right. Yeah. We're, uh, I'm just, uh, just north of, of upstate New York. 

[00:03:45] Jim Jansen: Perfect. 

[00:03:45] Michael: We're about a, about a three-hour drive to Syracuse. 

[00:03:48] Jim Jansen: Okay. 

[00:03:49] Michael: Yeah. New York. If you're anybody's college sports fans, you know, the orange, right? The orange, something like that.

[00:03:55] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Orangewood. Yes. All right. So, Michael, what, what's something we should know about Canada? 

[00:04:01] Michael: Something you should know about Canada. I mean, you know, one of the typical things that people, everybody just thinks it's always cold up here. You know, that, uh, that I'd live in an igloo, or I own a snowmobile.

I have ridden on a snowmobile before. I do not own one, but actually it gets really warm here too. 

[00:04:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:04:20] Michael: You know, our summers are, our temperatures are in Celsius. So, but I know here in Ottawa, it's easily pushing a hundred, sometimes over a hundred degrees Fahrenheit during the summer. And it's, uh, incredibly humid.

So, you get that, uh, get the extremes of it's very warm and then very cold. 

[00:04:41] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. Thank you for that. That's good. It's a little bit like, you know, for the Nebraska listeners here, that's a little bit Nebraska. We get all four seasons. We get a big healthy dose of all four seasons. And you know, the joke is like, if you don't like the weather, just wait five minutes, it'll change.

[00:04:57] Michael: Oh, absolutely. 

[00:04:58] Jim Jansen: That's great. Okay. So, tell us just a little bit about, you know, Catholic Christian outreach and, uh, what you, what you do, what you all do. 

[00:05:08] Michael: Yeah. So, I mean, the easiest comparison is that we'd be very similar to what FOCUS does in the U S of course, you and I both have that, that shared background in those ministries.

So, you know, if you're any of the listeners are familiar with focus, there's a, it's not a direct translation, but it's pretty close. Uh, so our, our main context of ministry is the university campus. We've been working on campuses for since 1988. So once that put us at around 34 years, I think now. 

[00:05:38] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:05:38] Michael: What we're seeing actually is that our, we're coming to understand our ministry even more to see that that what we do, our, our work and our thinking is always expanded beyond the campus.

To see that actually our goal is to build missionary disciples and people who know how to go out and build other missionary disciples. 

[00:05:57] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:05:58] Michael: And that's not limited to the campus. So, for us, we see the campus. I would kind of say it's like the engine behind everything. 

[00:06:04] Jim Jansen: Right? Yeah. 

[00:06:04] Michael: Because, you know, that's the spot where. University, that age group is where people are so open to new ideas. They're in that spot where they're really trying to figure out what do they believe. And again, you would know this from your time on campus that you get these, especially even the Catholic kids were coming in. They're saying, well, I'm going to have to decide if I'm going to choose for myself that faith.

I was raised in, you know, sometimes it's like, I'm free from mom and dad. Now I've moved away from home and I'm living in a dorm and now I have to choose for myself. Am I going to go to church on Sunday? Am I going to live the way I was raised? Do I believe these things that I was raised with? And so, it's so vital to have someone there who can meet them in that moment.

Especially somebody who's relatively appear, maybe just a few years older than them to say, Hey, like, actually, yeah, there's the Lord has something in store for you. There is a relationship with Jesus will change your life. But then from there, knowing that actually what we're doing is we're preparing people to go out into the rest of their lives.

And to be missionaries for the rest of, like, in every context that they find themselves. So... 

[00:07:06] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:07:06] Michael: We see, like, campus is the place where it's, it's both, uh, it's, it's where we meet people. It's where they can really encounter Jesus, uh, in a deep and profound way and in a bit more of a contained environment in the campus setting.

And then now we can prepare them to go out and kind of see it as a sending ground. 

[00:07:24] Jim Jansen: I love that. I mean, we used to say the same thing. We'd use this phrase that like, right, the real test of our success happens after college. 

[00:07:33] Michael: Absolutely. 

[00:07:34] Jim Jansen: Those who've been prepared to be missionary disciples in this beautiful, unique window, you know, called college life, boom, like we're, we're sending them out as missionaries all over the country and the world.

Michael, I want to talk a little bit, I wasn't planning on going here, but I think this is relevant. I think some people see the, uh, extreme fruitfulness of a ministry like Focus or CCO and say, Oh, well, that's, that's great. It's, it's kids. young people, but maybe they don't see the relevance of, of like, why this is significant for the entire church, why it's hopeful for the future, and, and, and really why it's so, so incumbent upon us to try and learn the lessons from what the Lord seems to be doing in these ministries, and then translate them to other opportunities.

Can you talk a little bit, like, why does it even matter, you know, that, that CCO has so many vocations, so many young people that are, I mean, really encountering the Lord, being deeply formed as missionary disciples? Why does that matter? Or why is it significant? 

[00:08:48] Michael: Well, how many hours do we have here? 

[00:08:51] Jim Jansen: Just one, but. 

[00:08:52] Michael: Oh, okay, okay. I mean, we could talk about this for a long time. There's so many angles to look at that from. You know, a phrase that we'll use often when we're talking about the university students is We'll say that they are, they're young enough to want to change the world and old enough to start to actually be able to do it.

[00:09:08] Jim Jansen: Yes. Oh, that's great. 

[00:09:10] Michael: Yeah, like, as we get a little bit older, and I've seen it even just, I would note the difference between when I was working on campus with students, and then one of the volunteer ministries my wife and I would do is help with marriage prep in our parish. And just the difference, even in, in that age group, we're now, instead of it being the late teens, early twenties, and now we're dealing with people who are maybe mid-twenties, early thirties, who are wanting to get married and just the difference in how set they were in their ways, even just in that maybe five year gap.

[00:09:41] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Wow. 

[00:09:42] Michael: And so, you're at that spot as a university student where you really, your eyes really are being opened to the world in a new way. And., I think it's just such a critical time, but there's also research that shows that when you make it like a life changing decision in your twenties, there's a much better chance that that's actually going to stick for the rest of your life.

[00:10:06] Jim Jansen: Interesting. 

[00:10:07] Michael: I remember hearing about this kind of in the marketing world that they would, they target college students because they know if they can get somebody hooked on a particular brand of whatever this thing is. The classic example is, you know, if you look at like a spring break down in Florida or something like that, and there's beer companies everywhere.

They don't need to convince these young men and women that beer is good, but they need to convince them that it's our brand. 

[00:10:29] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:10:30] Michael: And so, they'd be giving out free samples. Because they know that's how I, I want to be able to get them to say, yeah, I, I'm, I'm a, whatever guy, you know, that's my, that's my brand.

That's my beer. That's my, so, you know, not the most wholesome example, maybe, but the concept kind of carries out then of like, if we can, we can help them see and adding and not just see, but actually encounter Jesus in a life changing way. And we have this unique opportunity when they're on a, on a Campus that you don't have afterwards that you get so much of their attention because they're at the same place every day.

So you, you can, you could have a conversation with them every day of the week, potentially, which in a parish setting, that's a lot more difficult because now you're into life and you've got work and you've got kids and you've got all these different things that, you know, if you can get them to come 1 other time, other than Sunday, that's a huge win.

In the parish world, whereas, yeah, with a student, I can talk to them four or five times a week. 

[00:11:30] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:11:30] Michael: Without really that being too much of a burden on their time. 

[00:11:33] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, and I think there's another angle too. And that is as much as, you know, we're focusing on the opportunity. Gosh, they're open. There's, you know, they're at a time in their life where they're ready.

Yeah. I mean, college campuses are aggressively secular and aggressively hedonistic. So, all of the temptations of the world are, like, as intense as they will ever be. And to see the gospel flourish in that context, to see people not only embrace their faith in its fullness, but become missionary to their peers, it gives us hope to say, like, okay, like.

If it works on college campuses, it can work anywhere, because there really isn't, there aren't very many places that are much darker. There are places certainly where there's more poverty and physical suffering, but I can't think of many places where there was more intense hedonism and, and a secular mindset.

And when the gospel flourishes there, it's a sign that it, it still works everywhere. 

[00:12:45] Michael: And I would say our Canadian experience, we're just. That much further along the secular trail than the U. S. is in general.

[00:12:53] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Thank you. Yes. 

[00:12:54] Michael: I'd say it even heightens that a little bit more. Although, I mean, I think certainly many of your, your college campuses are probably just as secular, if not more secular than many of the Canadian ones.

But I think. Kind of on average, we're looking and saying, yeah, it's we're unfortunately much further along that secularization path. As a society in general, and so again, to your point of, like, if we can see it flourishing there. 

[00:13:20] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:13:20] Michael: And you know what? That's 1 of the great things. That's when we go out and we get, you know, talk to lots of people about our ministry and that sort of thing.

And, and you, you sit down somebody's couch and you're telling them about it and you see the look on somebody's face who's maybe now, you know, in the grandparent years, and they're thinking about their kids and their and their grandkids and lamenting, you know, like, yeah, my, I, I thought I'd raised my kids, you know, in the faith and now my grandkids are being baptized and all this sort of stuff.

And then they look at you and they say, so you're telling me there's hope. 

[00:13:50] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:13:51] Michael: Because we could sit down and tell them not just numbers, but we can tell them stories. Yes, we can say, like, yeah, let me tell you about, you know, this person who experienced this in their life. And this person who came from this background and now look at the life that they're living now and the way their faith has changed and their understanding and their practice and everything.

And that brings hope. Yeah. That you maybe don't, you know, we would often say we get to see more conversion happen in a week on campus and most people ever get to see in their entire lives. 

[00:14:18] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh, totally. 

[00:14:20] Michael: But it doesn't need to be reserved to the campus experience. And that's what we're seeing is that what we're experiencing on campus in a way is a, is a, is a lab to work out the principles that can be used in any context.

[00:14:32] Jim Jansen: Right. And that's exactly, you know, and that's exactly been our experience as well. That like, I mean, there is some translation. There's some adaptation. Absolutely. I mean, I want to, I want to acknowledge that. And you've done, uh, I mean, I, you know, your book, Intentional Accompaniment, I feel like is exceptionally good at that.

I don't know. There's something about the Canadian accent that translates very, very universal, very universally. But like, it is really like, uh, your book is a, is a very accessible picture of just the core principles and practices that work not only on college campuses, but in parish life and in everyday lay ministry.

What I want to do, I want to maybe pivot our conversation and really focus in on small groups, uh, spoiler alert, right, Michael is going to be coming here to Omaha, uh, it's going to be giving a workshop on how to build small group movements. We're super excited about it because Michael is, I mean, I don't know, probably, I'm going to flatter you and then I'm going to, but I'm going to qualify it, uh, probably one of, I mean, one of the world experts in building small group movements.

To take nothing away from you, Michael. I'll quote a friend who used to say, yeah, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. You know, there's just not that many that are really, again, outside the campus ministry setting, that are trying to use the power of small groups. To evangelize to, you know, to change the culture.

So, it's not like there's a huge peer group, but you, you know how to do this. I just want to give you a, just a, an opportunity here just to start us off. Like, okay, how does small groups work? As you're now translating it into a parish, like what actually happens. 

[00:16:22] Michael: So, if we look at what we do on campus, right, the, I'll give you the kind of that little picture of what that looks like, and then how that translates.

So, the campus experiences that we use the first couple of weeks of the semester to go out and try to meet as many new people as possible. And again, campus provides. Kind of that concentrated environment where you can do that easily. And we can meet hundreds, thousands of students in the first few weeks.

And then we go out and we deliberately, we were, we're asking them for their phone number and email. And we do different things to get their attention, free food, and you know, all those sorts of things to try to bring them over and then say, Hey, we're, we're doing these Catholic things on campus. If you're interested, leave us your, your phone number and we'll get.

Hundreds of phone numbers every semester on every campus. Yeah. And then we make that deliberate effort, which is time consuming. And, you know, not the easiest way, but it's not send out a mass email saying, Hey, thanks for leaving your email. Hope you sign up for something. Here's a Google link that we phone every 1 of them and say, Hey, can we have 15 minutes of your time?

Meet me on campus and we'll have a quick conversation. And then in there in that meeting, we'll say, Hey, you should join one of our small groups. That's the main backbone of what we do. And then we get hundreds of students then that sign up for these small group faith studies. And then we walk them through, uh, you know, our first study is, is we call it discovery.

It's a, it's a charismatic, uh, you know, basically explains the Kerygma over 6 weeks. And then we go from there. So, in that, then that's where we really form the bulk of our community and what we're seeing is that you can take that experience and translate it into your, your parish life. Yeah, absolutely.

Because what you do there is you, you start creating these small communities of people that get to connect with each other. 

[00:18:06] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:18:07] Michael: And I, I find that it's, it's kind of the right mix of. You know, I'm a huge introvert. So, like the, I remember the first things I would get invited to whenever I was involved in a ministry type thing was, you know, Oh, we got a hundred people coming to this thing on Friday night.

And I'd be like, I don't want to go to that. That seems intimidating. Whereas for others, that's like their favorite thing and they want to be there. 

[00:18:26] Jim Jansen: That sounds like it's 95 people too many for me. 

[00:18:30] Michael: Yeah, exactly. So, a small group, I was invited to that like, you know what? I could be, I could do that. Yeah. I could and be there with, you know, small group people.

And we… And talking about something I was interested in talking about, but then also for the extrovert, they still get their chance to kind of be out there and have conversation and meet people and build relationships. So, I feel like it's kind of like the happy, happy middle there for everybody. And so, it's in that spot that you can, you can, you can have deeper conversations.

You can, you can build relationship with people. And dive deeply into their experiences and be able to share things with them so that they can learn in a way that isn't just hearing from somebody on a stage and they may or may not take much away from it, but you can actually dive in and share truth with them and then also check in and see, well, how are you doing with that?

[00:19:18] Jim Jansen: Yeah, well, you can see people's faces like, Hey, I noticed I noticed your eyebrows went up when I said that, like, Hey, what's up? I mean, I feel Michael like, you know, we have, we're very blessed here in the archdiocese. There are so many parishes that have developed small group movements. We've really used the season of Lent as an opportunity to start super easy to lead.

Small group experiences, you know, it's just a, it's a six-week invitation. Everybody knows they need to do something for land. So, we've leveraged that, uh, number of parishes. I mean, you know, if they're doing alpha or, uh, most kind of retreats tend to have a small group component to them. And what we've noticed is it really changes the feeling of Sunday because you walk in and like you really know people there's always a handful of people there that you really know and they really know you and right what's more human than feeling like okay I'm actually seen here I'm actually known here I'm loved here it really changes the feeling not just for me but you can see it I've been at parishes that have you know shout out to St.

Francis Cabrini. You can feel the difference, particularly in the sign of peace, which tends to go on forever, because people really know each other. They really connect. You can feel it before mass and after mass. What else, what else do small groups do in the context of a parish community? 

[00:20:49] Michael: Well, I think that community feel, you're so right. Like you, you do, you form that connection with the people and with the, like the other, Participants in the group, but also with the leader. 

[00:21:00] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:21:00] Michael: And that can lead you into that connection with the other people, right? Because then you. Show up to Sunday mass and, you know, there's the coffee and doughnuts afterwards.

And then your group leader says, I got to introduce you to so and so, because introduce friends to friends. Exactly. And so, we, you see that element, but I think the other part of it is the opportunity to be able to connect with people as they're learning as they're experiencing things. And to, like you said, you know, you pick up on the small things and that in a large group setting, nobody's picking up on that.

But in that small group, you can, you can dive deep with that person and, and start to say, like, you can dig into their heart. 

[00:21:39] Jim Jansen: Right. 

[00:21:39] Michael: You know, and you can share it from your own heart as a leader, you know, and be able to share about how you've experienced these things. And so, then they're, they're seeing a model of Christian living of Christian witness.

Of somebody who's wrestled with, you know, different truths and how they go deep with them and how they've come to experience them. And so, then everything you're hearing isn't just ideas concepts that it's actually, it's, it's coming from an individual who's lived it and is now sharing it with you. Yeah.

And now you can have somebody you can look to in a mentorship type role. And that person is personal to you. You know, it isn't somebody from a stage where you're like, boy, it'd be really great to have a conversation with that person, but I can't get to them because there's 100 people in front of me in this lineup to go talk to them.

This person, you know, this leader now is investing in your life that changes your experience of. You know, the truths you're encountering of that small community, but then also that larger community when they start inviting you into it. Yeah. Um, so then the whole church becomes something that's personal.

[00:22:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:22:43] Michael: And then you are more invested in it at that point. 

[00:22:46] Jim Jansen: Right? Well, and it's, I mean, it's kind of what Jesus did, you know, I mean, when we have the eyes to see it, like, of course, he knew how to draw a crowd, but he's spending the majority of his time in what you could call a small group, uh, environment.

Individually connecting groups of three, Peter, James, and John, the 12. I mean, this is, this is kind of Jesus's methodology. And it's just, it's so flexible. If not, everybody can make 7 PM, but a small group, it's like, Hey, it's just the five of us. We can find a time that works, that the material The facilities needs like you don't, you know, anywhere you can fit five people.

I mean, the pandemic showed that people are like, all right, we're going to be on the driveway. Got the fire pit out, you know, we'll be in the backyard, whatever. I mean, it's just the flexibility is fantastic. I just want to; I want to pivot this again. I want to go to the like, you know, just like the honest, I can hear some of the listeners in my head.

Like, okay, fine. We tried it and it didn't quite work. Like it is, it sometimes seems like small group efforts start off strong for a while. And then one of two things happens, either they get in this mode where it's like the five of us are going to keep meeting from now until Jesus comes back. Or it just fades away.

Michael, what's the secret to developing a lasting and growing small group movement? 

[00:24:09] Michael: I think we have to think with a multiplication mentality. We have to, we have to think what's the next generation of this going to look like? We start with the small group, but our vision has to go beyond just this group of five people.

How can the five of us, the six of us, whatever it is, impact the world? And, and how do we, how do we get to that place? Well, there's, there's a lot of incremental steps to get there, but we have to, Think how can that next? How can we take that next step to do that? And so, you know, 1 of the 1st things is always going to be that our small groups have to have a missionary mentality that we have to be thinking, not just about the people in this group, but who will be impacted by the people in this group.

And how can I prepare this group to go out and impact other people, which doesn't mean you need to disband your group, you know, that having that small group of people that you. That you can, that core group of people that that. You know, it's amazing when you meet people that have been together in small groups for, you know, years and years, and you see the depth of relationship and the way their families connect together and, and all these sorts of things.

It's beautiful. But if that's all it does. Then it's become kind of inward focus kind of insular, and there's only so much it can do to be able to actually impact the world at that point. And if every time we form small groups, it's just for the sake of that small group. I think we're kind of missing the point a little bit because.

Our church is, yes, we're always about trying to grow deeper in holiness for ourselves, but if that's not connected to the mission of evangelization, then we're actually missing part of what holiness should drive us to, which is out to the world. 

[00:25:51] Jim Jansen: Okay. How, how do you do that though? I mean, that, that makes perfect sense.

Cause I mean, you know, you're, you're giving us a lens to say, well, the difference between the groups that Peter out and the groups that maybe stay together and are good for the members but are stagnant. They're not growing. They're not reproducing. You're like it's about the missionary mindset. How do you, how do you cultivate the missionary mindset?

[00:26:14] Michael: Absolutely. So, you need to start looking at every person in your small groups as a potential leader. 

[00:26:21] Jim Jansen: Wow. 

[00:26:22] Michael: And then you're going to start to identify them and say, you know, the ones that kind of rise to the surface. And say, okay, well, how can I invite you into leadership likely that's going to end up being starting their own small group of people that they're reaching out to.

And again, not forming your own fellowship group, but it's not like I'm going to break away from this group of really tight friends that I have and go try to form another 1, but it's, it's going and saying, who's the next layer of people who need to hear the gospel who need to be brought into a transformative experience, a conversion experience in their lives.

And how can I, how can I help lead them there? For us, we're always looking into, you know, again, I'll use our, our discovery example. When people come in, we're sharing the Kerygma with them. We're looking to bring them to conversion, but we're also keeping an eye out and saying, who here is ready to start leading somebody else?

Or maybe not quite ready, but I see the potential and I want to start developing them and I might pull them aside at that point, you know, as we get me to the end of that 1st, 6 weeks together and say, hey, I see something in you and I would, you know, either I'd like to challenge you to start leading something right away, or I'd like to I'd love to be able to help you.

Bro, you so that you could be ready to lead something like this in the future. Are you up for that and making a deliberate challenge? Yeah. 

[00:27:42] Jim Jansen: A couple of things. I mean, as you say that it makes sense, but to write, it brings two questions to mind. One, how do you do that? So, it's not weird. And then two, like what are you actually looking for?

Because I think you and I share an assumption that small group leadership, small group facilitation isn't really a preaching platform. It often isn't even a teaching platform. Like, you know, it's great if your small group leader is a good teacher. That can be helpful. It's maybe not the essentials. Talk about like, one, again, how do you, how do you make it not weird?

And then what are you looking for? Like, what do you see in people? 

[00:28:25] Michael: Well, the way you make it not weird is that you've already formed a relationship with this person. You know, like if, because if, if, yeah, if you're just like dropping out of nowhere and say, hey, by the way, I think you should lead people.

Yeah, that's gonna, it's not gonna go well in most cases. But if you've been developing, so again, use that the 6-week example, right? If you've been developing a relationship with this person over these 6 weeks, and you've been having conversations with them, and part of small group leadership is that, you know, you're not just leading in the 1 hour a week that you have with those people, right?

You're trying to invest in their lives. Yeah. So it might be as simple as just. Exchanging text messages throughout the week or every once in a while, having a phone call with them, or you see them at mass on Sunday, you connect with them. They're just those little extra conversations that happen are really important to building the relationship to helping this person to see that it's more than just.

You're interested in them more than just 1 hour a week, but you're interested in them all the time. And if you've done that, and you've, you've been able to have conversations, well, they know that you've, they've been seeing you be a part of their development and their growth over the 6 weeks. So, it wouldn't be surprising that. You want to talk about it. 

[00:29:35] Jim Jansen: It's not weird. If you're actually a friend, if you're actually a friend. 

[00:29:39] Michael: Yeah. But if you're disconnected, then yeah, it could be really weird. 

[00:29:41] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Okay. So, so this is good. And some of us, you know, like maybe we can do a deep dive later and like, you know, how do we, how do we keep Jim from being weird?

But for most of us, it's like, no, just be a friend. So then, what are you looking, what are you looking for? Like, what are you supposed to recognize in, uh, your participants saying, hey, this person could be a leader? Because again, it's not necessarily this, you know, wow, they're a gifted public speaker. They are a whiz at PowerPoint.

[00:30:07] Michael: So, we have our four criteria that we would use. F A C T, faithful, available, contagious, and teachable. And to kind of just give a quick breakdown of those, the first thing I'm looking for is, is this person faithful? So, am I seeing them developing in a relationship with the Lord? Over the time that I'm and they might come into your small group, and maybe they've already encountered Jesus, and they've been walking with him for a long time, or maybe they're encountering him for the 1st time through this experience.

But either way, what you want to see is there's somebody who is committed like that. They they're committed to their faith, and it might be really basic at this point. And then the level of leadership you're going to invite them to is probably going to be kind of tied to that a little bit.

You know, we're not going to take somebody, Oh, you experienced Jesus for the first time yesterday. You should probably lead the entire small group for this parish next week. Like, no, that's probably too quick, but you know, so, but you're looking for that faithfulness. You're looking for availability. I mean, some people are wonderful, and they just don't have the time, or they may have the time, but they're not giving it to you.

You see that they're committed to other things. 

[00:31:10] Jim Jansen: I'd love that. Right. Because oftentimes, you know, that, that mantra. You know, busy people are the people who get things done. That holds true, but the test isn't busy or not busy. The test is, are they available for this, right? For the sharing of the gospel, for the investing in the lives of others.

And sometimes, sometimes you're surprised at who says yes to that. 

[00:31:35] Michael: One of the things that's driven me nuts over the years is different times when I've offered myself, you know, like, Hey, I could help with this. And people say, Oh, you're far too busy. And, uh, and I say, I just offered myself. I know I'm busy.

I'm aware of that, but I offered myself to you. Don't say no on my behalf. I've seen students who are in the busiest university programs that really don't have time, and they made the time. And then I've seen students that are in programs that are not nearly as demanding and they say, I'm just far too busy.

And you know, it's not entirely accurate. In terms of the actually have the time, but they're not willing to give it to you. 

[00:32:15] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:32:15] Michael: So that means you haven't yet won that relationship over in that way. So, if they're not willing to give you the time, then you're probably going to move on to somebody else who is willing to give you that time.

Then you're looking for somebody who's contagious. And that's. That just means somebody who has an ability to connect with other people. It doesn't mean that they have to be like the kind of the person who you can stick in front of a crowd and that sort of thing. That's often the first place we go to is like, Oh, so they got to be like really funny, really extroverted and that sort of thing.

And it's like, yes, those can be great qualities of somebody who's contagious, but there are some people who are very quiet and yet very contagious. Oh yeah. 

[00:32:53] Jim Jansen: No, thank you for saying that. Cause I feel like You know, I'm an, I'm an extrovert, you know, on a 1 to 10 scale, I'm probably an 11, but my lovely, my, my lovely wife and many of the hall of fame missionaries that I've worked with, it just have unbelievable fruitfulness.

They're quiet. They're like, you know, if it's like, okay, it's a professional liability. I have to be at this hundred-person party, but they talked to one person in the corner the whole night. And they leave an impact. And so, yeah, so it's not about contagiousness isn't about extroversion. It's more about, like, people who really love people and connect with others.

And sometimes, that's the quiet ones who know how to get in their space to have a good quality conversation. Uh, and that's how they connect. 

[00:33:42] Michael: And you might notice that as a small group leaders, you're looking around in that quiet person who maybe doesn't share a time, but when they share the other people would lean in a little bit and they're listening and you're going, okay... 

[00:33:52] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:33:53] Michael: They're drawn to something in this person. And the other thing we have to get away from is you may not feel drawn to this particular person, but if other people are, then there is a contagiousness because sometimes we're like, oh, it's just basically means somebody that I get along with. I remember there were times where. You know, I used to do staff recruitment for CCO.

So, I would talk to a lot of young men and women who are thinking about coming on board as missionaries. And there were times where I'd be meeting with some people, and I don't get it myself. I'm not connecting with you personally, but you are telling me story after story of these people who I probably also wouldn't connect with, but you're connecting with them.

And so, there is a contagious is there, even though I'm not drawn to, I'm not having like a natural affinity to you myself, but I can, if I can kind of step back out of that my own judgment in that moment, or. And just be able, be able to see, okay, actually, I see that there's something beautiful happening through this person and other people are drawn to you, then we can find that contagiousness in that.

[00:34:53] Jim Jansen: Well, it goes back to the missionary mindset, right? Like, the Lord sent us out, like, go make disciples of every nation. You know, and if we can use that as a metaphor and maybe translate it, man, within the parish, even relatively small parishes, there's a variety of temperaments and types and, you know, birds of a feather tend to flock together.

So, you've got not just men and women and retirees and, you know, people with school age kids, but you've got men who are attracted to the Knights of Columbus and you've got men who are attracted to the men's club and you've got. All these different kind of temperaments and styles, and the Lord wants all of them.

He wants the whole neighborhood. All the ethnicities in the neighborhood, all the people, all the little subgroups. And, man, if the Lord gives you someone who can be a missionary to those groups, even if it's not your, your mission field, my goodness, that's such a blessing. 

[00:35:53] Michael: Absolutely. And there will be people that don't have that contagiousness.

Right. And so, we do have to see that as well as that. That's the, this isn't saying everybody can be contagious because actually there are some people who just, and maybe they just don't have it yet. Maybe they will one day, but they have to. Yeah, I remember working with, you know, some young people where you, you couldn't have a conversation with them.

You just couldn't, they just, they just didn't have the capacity to have a one-on-one conversation with somebody. Well, I can't put them in good faith in a leadership position then because they're just not showing me the capacity to do it. And maybe they have the potential to develop it, but it's not quite there yet, you know, or others that they spend so much of the time talking themselves that they actually don't let anybody else get an edge, a word in edge wise.

Yeah. And you actually lack contagiousness at that point, too, because who wants to be led by someone who won't listen? There is some balancing in there. Yeah, 

[00:36:45] Jim Jansen: well, and it, it doesn't, I mean, in my experience, very rarely does it end up being awkward or difficult. Like, I'm looking for something, like, people who want it, I mean, they may not have never thought of it until, you know, I'm providing the invitation.

Rarely do people who aren't contagious really want to serve others in this way. Yes. I mean, it happens, but it just doesn't happen very often. And I said, more common is people who actually want to, but they have this kind of false notion where like, well, I just don't know enough, or I'm just not outgoing enough, or I'm just insert some other kind of false criteria.

And, um, I just get to help them see that their desire is from the Lord, and that they actually have everything they need to do it. 

[00:37:38] Michael: Yeah, I'd agree with you there. 

[00:37:40] Jim Jansen: Alright, tell us about the T. What's the T stand for? 

[00:37:43] Michael: Yeah, so teachable is that last one. Is that you need someone who's willing to learn. Um, because there are some people that just aren't interested in being taught or mentored by somebody else.

We all need to be in a position where we, we, we recognize we have to learn, and we have to grow and that somebody else has things to teach us. So, I'm looking for somebody who's willing to learn. And again, probably if you've identified someone in your small group, it's probably because you've seen a teachability if they're the person that's just, you can't ever get them to really grasp something or to really kind of pay attention to what you're, you're sharing as you're leading, then you're probably not going to select them as a leader, but just to know that that's 1 of the criteria we're looking for is that they demonstrate a teachability that they're willing to learn.

So, if you get those kind of, you see those four and, and the point is that they have to have all of these four perfectly. I just need to be able to see that they can demonstrate each one of those characteristics in some way because everything can be developed. Everything can be taught. It's not genetic.

Yeah. And it's not like you're, you're only looking for the cream of the crop here, you know, and just the only the best 5 percent that exists. Like, we want to invite as many people as we can into leadership because we have an entire world to reach and every one of us is called to you. the mission of evangelization in some way, shape, or form.

That doesn't mean every person is called to lead a small group, but that's a really great way that can reach a large cross section of people and, and a lot of us will have the capacity to be able to do it. 

[00:39:19] Jim Jansen: Right. It's a, it's a methodology so that everyone's call to evangelize. It's a methodology that like, okay, this fits me.

I'm going to invite people who like, Like, I want to hang out with people in my life, my neighborhood, coworkers, other family members, whatever, and like, I can do this, and the likelihood that it will fit in my schedule, that I'm going to be able to make the connections there, it's just a mode of evangelization that tends to fit.

And I might add, like, not only is it like the method of Jesus, you know, you see him, him doing it, but it really works in like the underground church in China and other places where there's persecution. Like it just works and it's accessible to not absolutely every baptized person, but to most of us, you can do this.

So, what else do you need? There's this like, okay, there's, if small groups are going to not just kind of fizzle or stay stagnant, there's got to be a missionary mindset. In that missionary mindset, we have to be looking for individuals who have the facts, right? F A C T, the facts of leadership. What else is key to building a vibrant small group movement?

[00:40:38] Michael: Well, and this is where I think I would talk about our model that we just call 1, 2, 3, 4. And basically what that means is it's, It's a, it's a method of being able to multiply and to coach people so that they are receiving what they need to be able to, to leave the small groups on the ground. Okay. And the basic idea behind that is.

What often happens, I think, in most places where we try, we see, like, step 1 is that you just set up small groups and they kind of act as like independent entities. It's like, there's a small group here and a small group there, and there's not really a huge connection between them. And, you know, as we were describing, like, that can go as long as the people in that group are willing to keep going.

And then I feel like the next Kind of stage that we'll see in a lot of, like, different parish groups or diocesan groups that we work with is that they'll do, they'll, they'll try to have, like, a collection of small groups and then 1 person at the top who tries to coordinate it all and that at some point is going to get unwieldy if this grows the way we hope it will, because you might start off with 2 or 3 or 4 small groups, but then, well, let's say if 1 person out of each 1 of those groups, Steps out as a leader now, your four groups, all of a sudden becomes eight and it quickly becomes 10 comes 20 becomes, you know, as you start growing this.

And then how's that 1 person at the top supposed to provide anything other than just logistical support, but you've got these leaders that are trying to lead for the 1st time. And they don't know what to do there. They can lack confidence. They can lack formation. They can lack just the support that they need.

So, you need another layer of people. And so, what we essentially did is we just assigned numbers to it. To keep it as simple as possible. So we said a one is somebody who's in the program as your participants. So that's somebody who's just a member of the small group. And then the two is the person leading the small group.

The three is now someone who coaches the two. 

[00:42:34] Jim Jansen: Okay. Oh! 

[00:42:35] Michael: So, they're going to be somebody who is an experienced. Like small group leader and who's showing the, the, the desire and the capacity to actually start investing in small group leaders to help them. 

[00:42:48] Jim Jansen: Right? They're like a support system. Yeah. So that for example, you know, small group leader, a number 2 has a bad night.

Like nobody shows up or worse yet. Only 1 person shows up and it's the quiet person and it's a little bit awkward conversation. And the next day, Okay. The two can be like, Hey, it's okay. It happens to everybody. Like where was Jesus in that, you know, and, and is able to walk them through that experience of discouragement or remind them to say like, you know what?

If you text people like two hours before, it really makes a big difference as to whether or not they remember and they show up and they're just able to help that person persevere through the. Very ordinary, normal challenges of trying to serve in this way. 

[00:43:37] Michael: And what we end up doing in most cases is that we have one person sitting at the top and maybe now you've got 10 small group leaders.

Well, it's really hard to provide that support to each of those people. So, you need to have that kind of. If you want to call it almost like the middle management layer, you know, within your, your movement of people who are the directly working with the people who leave the groups, but then those people, those threes who are the coaches, they need somebody helping them because they're growing in this.

And so, you'd have what we would just term as the 4 and that's a person who basically coaches the coaches and they're, and they're going to be somebody who's an experienced 3 and experienced coach. So, they've been through this now a few times. And they're able to offer wisdom and insight to that person.

And basically, what happens then is. Because the whole goal in all of this is, it goes back to our principles of intentional accompaniment. We're trying to invest in the life of every person who's involved with this ministry, this movement that we're trying to develop. And so the, the one that participant in the, in the, the small group, Has a two who's investing in each one of their lives, who's spending time getting to know them having individual conversations, meeting with them in the small group.

But then they talk to the three and the three says, tell me about not just how you're doing as a leader, but tell me about your people, what's going on in their lives so that the three, the coach can actually start offering wisdom to the two about how to help deal with the, the things that are coming up in that small group setting.

[00:45:11] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It helps their eyes be more missionary. So, they're like, That's right. Not so concerned about, oh man, I felt like, you know, it was really awkward. I like, I meant to get snacks, and I didn't and it's like, okay, enough about you. Tell me about the people who came, you know, and it helps redirect our eyes.

To them and to what the Lord's doing in and through them. 

[00:45:35] Michael: And what often happens is, I think we, we ask the wrong question in many cases when we're trying to coach a small group leader, because we say, how did it go last week? Or how did the lesson go? Or how is the group doing? And then we get kind of a group answer of, oh, it went well, or, oh, it went really poorly.

I don't know what happened or. And I think we need to ask that next layer, which is okay. But tell me about Jim. How did Jim respond? And as you begin to coach somebody who's the leader, you get to know their people, which means you can start to see patterns as well. And so, they might say, uh, you, you might be able to say like, Hey, last week when you talked about.

You know, the concept of God's love, you mentioned that, that Jim seemed to really, he wasn't quite sure what to do with that. It didn't seem like he'd encountered God in a personal way before. So, in this next lesson, we talked about, you know, what it was, what is a relationship with God supposed to be like?

Well, how did he react? Like, do you see, like, do you see any progression in his? In his experience of that. So you can start to tailor the way you're coaching from like the, the three level, the coach helping that to that, that small group leader to see, to help them see what's actually going on through your experience, through your own prayer and, and getting to know the people through them.

Yeah. And then the four is doing the same thing for the three saying, well, how are, how are your people doing? How are your leaders doing? Yeah. And how are their people doing? And so, like the wisdom of all these experienced missionaries It's kind of passed down through the chain to come to bear on all the people in this small group.

And they don't even necessarily realize it, but they're, they're being, becoming the beneficiaries of not just that one leader, but actually of this whole community that is designed to help support them in their growth. 

[00:47:30] Jim Jansen: This is so good. Like Michael, as you talk about this, there's a number of things that are kind of exploding in my mind.

I mean, let's just be honest, there's a fear of kind of the chaotic, disordered, uh, reality that small groups could be, right? I mean, you know, just our pastoral sensibilities aren't such like, well, let's just let it go crazy. You know, like, so we, especially in the United States, but I don't think Canada is that much different.

We like things neat and clean and connected, you know, and, uh, we're a hierarchical church. So, we have a, we have a sense that like everything needs to be at its place. This provides that. Also, it helps insulate and kind of prevent this kind of rogue small group. I don't know, like, small groups are actually, I think, in our experiences, they're a powerful, powerful force for unity.

But they can, without this structure and support system, they could be a divisive little factional thing. And this helps ensure that they're actually a part, like, that they're a force for unity. It's fantastic. So, I just have to ask you this, like, where does this model typically break down? I, I have a, I have a hunch on this, but I'm curious to say, like, if there's like something that's, that's missing or something that like breaks in this.

What's usually missing? 

[00:48:56] Michael: I would say probably the connection point between the three and the two is one of the hinge points so that that coach that coach to the small group leader. If that isn't consistent, then it becomes. Yeah, if it's not consistent, you're not going to get to know the people that they're talking about.

You're going to end up focusing just on that individual. And I think that's kind of the other side of it is that the temptation is that you just want to coach the person in front of you, but not the people they're leading. And so, you spend all your time. If you're, say, the 3, like, again, the coach. With the small group leader, you spend all your time talking about the small group leader.

How are you doing me? How is your prayer life? How like what's going on in your life? What are the things that you struggled with as a leader last week? And so, everything just becomes what the conversation with that individual, but what you want to, you want to turn their gaze to their people. And not forget, like, you want to do, you want to do both.

You want to be able to walk with that individual to the health of the leader is really important. You don't want them to feel like they're just a hog in the wheel. And you're in a sense. And I've seen this happen where people can feel used if they don't feel like their coach actually cares about them.

They actually their, their whole goal is just to execute this vision for this mission that they want to happen. And it can ignore, or it feels like it can ignore the person right in front of you. So that's I think another breakdown point is if you need to care for that leader, but then also help that leader see that part of what you want to do is care for their people, not just for them.

[00:50:38] Jim Jansen: Michael, this is so good. And our time is just like totally flown here. Again, I'll remind people, you know, at the end here, but you're, you're coming to Omaha, you're going to be here in the archdiocese. Friday, October 11th, uh, we're going to do a whole day workshop out in Fremont, and we'll link so people can, you know, can register to that, but you're going to break this open.

Uh, people are going to be able to ask questions and, you know, kind of diagnose and plan and pray and, uh, think about the small group movements or the small groups that are in their parish context. I just want to give you Maybe a chance here as we close to offer some final words and particularly maybe words of encouragement for those who have like, uh, we tried this, you know, I tried leading a small group.

It felt like it was a disaster, or we tried, we had small groups going. In our parish and now we don't or we still do and it feels like it's a thorn in my side like you just go wherever the spirit leads you, but I just want to give you a chance to kind of speak to those who maybe are a little bit discouraged.

A little wary of, of maybe stepping in again. 

[00:51:48] Michael: My first encouragement is don't ever give up on the overall mission of the church that each one of us is called to evangelize. And it's possible that maybe you've struggled with it. And maybe, maybe it isn't the right spot for you. That's possible. But if you feel that don't ever give up on the overall call to evangelize in whatever context that you feel drawn to do that in.

But what we're seeing, not just on campus, but what we're seeing, because now we coach dozens of parishes and diocese. In Canada, in the US, in the UK, we're developing contacts in Australia, like, so we're, we're seeing this model work all over the place. And we know we're not the only ones doing this. You mentioned alpha uses a similar, you know, that kind of the table group sort of idea is very, it's, it's very similar.

[00:52:37] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:52:37] Michael: So there are thousands of people across the world that are being impacted by this, this Idea of just meeting in small groups and being encouraged to grow in their faith and for those leaders to grow in their own faith as they lead my, my encouragement would be, I would say, don't give up on this concept either.

Like, maybe it might be worth another try, but maybe, maybe there needs to be a little tweak in the way that you thought about it. Maybe it's even just as simple as finding a different material you're using, whatever it might be, but there's such power in that, that small cell group mentality. And that idea that all these little groups and they get connected to each other, which then becomes the larger, I mean, that's if we think about, that's how the whole church is structured.

[00:53:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:53:24] Michael: It's structured on the parish, which is part of a diocese, which is part of the, you know, the entire universal church. We're meant to be in these small community groups, you know, because we're meant to be together. We're meant we're not meant to go on this journey alone. So, to me, that the idea of a small group in whatever way you decide to structure that just makes a lot of sense.

[00:53:45] Jim Jansen: That's fantastic. Michael, thank you. We're gonna, we're gonna link to a couple things. One, we'll link to the CCO website, Catholic Christian Outreach. It is CCO.ca. That's for Canada, right? ca? 

[00:53:53] Michael: Absolutely. 

[00:53:54] Jim Jansen: Okay, so CCO.ca. We'll link to that. All sorts of great resources. They can find out more about the mission of Catholic Christian Outreach, of CCO, but great resources.

I mean, your book, uh, Intentional Accompaniment. Andre's book, clear and simple, uh, how to have spiritual conversations, just a number of small group resources, great material. So, we'll link there. That's a wealth of information. And then we'll also put a link in, uh, for the workshop. Again, that's going to be Friday, October 11th here in the archdiocese, Fremont, Nebraska.

And you're going to break this open Q& A, uh, really opportunities for parish teams, uh, and leaders to come together and, and think about how do we, how do we really build a strong, healthy small group movement in our parish. So, Michael, thank you. Thanks for being with us. Yeah. My pleasure. Looking forward to seeing you in, in October.

Well, you've already had a frost in Canada by that point. You're going to come south for, for the fall. 

[00:55:00] Michael: It's possible. It's possible. It'll be on the early side, but it's not impossible. 

[00:55:04] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's possible that we could get a, I hope not, but it's possible we could have a frost by that time too.

So, okay. Fantastic. Hey, all of you listening, you know, somebody who needs to hear this. Somebody who is, uh, interested in leading a small group, someone who's, who's trying to help shepherd and care for a movement. Maybe just someone who's been a part of a small group and you, you see something in them, uh, that, that they're ready to step out and lead their own.

Whoever it is, you just wait till you're at, you're safely at your destination and, uh, share this out, uh, with a friend, Michael again. Thanks for being with us. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to the EquipCast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission.

Stay connected with us by going to equip.archomaha.org. God bless and see you next time.