[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Quip Cast. So today I sit down with John Point, event of great Catholic parishes. John and I have a, just a great conversation and we cover a lot of ground. We talk about the state of parishes today and the key surprising spoiler alert, its humility, a leadership characteristic for renewing a parish or a ministry.

Today we talk about how the recruitment volunteers is a poor way to frame the challenge of engaging people. Uh, that we actually don't have a volunteer problem, that we have a discipleship problem. We talk about the importance of relationships and personal invitation. We, we talk a lot about. Family, faith formation and religious education.

And the hope that John is seeing there, uh, some new, uh, efforts that are starting. It's a really fun conversation. Uh, you get the benefit of John's wisdom having coached and consulted with and, and worked deeply with parishes all across the country. You're gonna love today's conversation. Take a listen.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

John Poitevent. Welcome to the Equip Cast. How you doing today, sir? 

[00:01:31] John Poitevent: I'm doing great. I'm, uh, grateful to be on here and, uh, always good to talk to you, Jim. We just gotten to know each other recently, but feels like a kindred spirit. 

[00:01:41] Jim Jansen: Oh, yeah. And what's really interesting, I mean, we don't have, I'm trying to think who, we had a couple people introduce us who introduced us? 

[00:01:49] John Poitevent: Runion, uh, outta Colorado.

Yeah. 

[00:01:52] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Dave Runion. Yeah, that's right. A yeah. Uh, former equipped cast, guest talking about, uh, the art and neighboring. We don't have, I mean, it's been fun how easy it's been and how much of a common language and, uh, how many convictions we share because we don't have a lot of like social network overlap, you know, like there's no, I mean, right.

To put it another way, there's no like, easy explanation for the fact that you seem like, you know, a, a brother from another mother. It's not like we've gone to the same schools or had all the same experiences, you know, independent, the Lord's kind of brought us both to a place where we, we share a lot of, I dunno, passion, conviction, hope I think, of what the Lord's doing, uh, today.

So anyway, John, introduce yourself to people. Tell us a little bit about your, your personal faith story. 

[00:02:45] John Poitevent: Sure. I will keep this brief 'cause we got a lot of ground to cover, but, you know, uh, I grew up in the church, confirmed when I was 12, youth group, all this stuff, and then went off to college. And this is probably not like an unusual story and didn't go.

I just, every once in a while somebody invite me or something. I, I definitely identified myself in that way, but I was, you know, uh, it was not important to me at that time. 

[00:03:13] Jim Jansen: Right. You, you'd say, I'm Catholic, but I. Your, your Sunday activity would not have been an indication. 

[00:03:20] John Poitevent: I mean, I think every once in a while I'd go to some sort of faith-based thing 'cause girls were there, but that was about it.

And then I had my own kind of personal conversion, not kind of like drastic when I was 20 and I really kind of hit a bottom in my life and it went from a theory to a reality. 

[00:03:40] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:41] John Poitevent: I love that Chesterton quote, your religion should be a less of a theory and more of a love affair. It became something very real, and it radically changed the trajectory of my life.

And the short version is like a year later, I was in Haiti on a mission trip for years. I was a missionary. I served in, you know, small groups ministry. I've been in ministry pretty much ever since then. But about 10 years ago, I got into this work of helping. Coach and consult and guide parishes into a place of greater thriving and renewal.

And it's been a blast. And about a year ago, year and three months, I started great Catholic parishes out on my own. So that's the short version. 

[00:04:29] Jim Jansen: And you've now, I mean, over the course of all your career, but particularly the last, you know, decade or so, I mean, you've worked with parishes all across the country.

[00:04:39] John Poitevent: Yeah. My time with gr with, uh, parish Catalyst. Yeah. I mean coast to coast, north to south. I. And it was beautiful to see the diversity, the differences, the uniquenesses. I think the most beautiful thing is in the midst of all that, to have all these parish teams in a room together from around the country that are everything from very progressive to very conservative, but that beautiful umbrella of the church, uh, they all come together under a common desire to help people encounter Christ.

And that, that was wonderful to see. 

[00:05:13] Jim Jansen: John, just building off that, you've got a very unique perspective. Yeah. Again, north to south, east to west, seeing so many different parishes in so many different contexts, and these, I mean, you kind of allude to it, these, these kind of cohort sessions that you're doing.

You're getting a lot of like time with parish leaders together. Give us, give us some background on the state of the parish today. As you've seen it from your work. 

[00:05:45] John Poitevent: Yeah, it's, and it's, uh, very diverse. I mean, your experience of the parish life, depending on where you live, what part of the country you're in, what size parish you're at, it could not at all look like what I'm about to describe to you.

But I will say in the past 10 years, I've seen a lot of change. And in the past five years I've been particularly encouraged, I would say like five or six years ago, pre-covid. I would not have told you what I'm about to say right now. 

[00:06:16] Jim Jansen: Hmm. 

[00:06:16] John Poitevent: While I was coaching and encouraging, I still felt like I was on a sinking ship, you know?

Yeah. But I would say, uh, today I see the biggest thing I've seen is a growth in a, a reinvigoration of family faith formation. That's the number one, I would say, bright spot that I see in the church today. 6, 7, 8 years ago, we encouraged it, but people were afraid to try it. And when I say family faith formation, I just mean we're not just dropping the kids off.

We're really considering the spiritual journey of the parents as well. And we're trying to engage them in that process, in helping them grow and not just telling them, your kids are your pri, you know, you're their primary catechist, which most parents go, what is that word? And what does it mean? I, I don't have a degree in that.

[00:07:08] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:07:09] John Poitevent: Right. 

[00:07:10] Jim Jansen: By the way, this is your job. What, what, what? 

[00:07:12] John Poitevent: Yeah. So that would be the number one bright spot that I see. But I also see a bright spot in the emerging generation without going too far into this, I, I, I think millennials have been the whole disaffiliation thing. They've been, they're disaffiliated with a grudge.

Like they've got their beefs, they've got their baggage and their wounds, and, and I don't want to. Be dismissive of those things at all. Their kids, the Gen Z, are more disaffiliated with no grudge, just a lack of exposure. And with that I've seen a curiosity that's more open, which is kind of exciting. Uh, I mean, having started in missions work, I see the world as a mission field.

And, um, Americans who are disaffiliated or just not even aware are no different than people in another country who are not aware. And, um, so that's, that's really how I see it. 

[00:08:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Which is different, like what you're saying really rings true, which is different than, you know, for, for many of us, again, working with millennials or even kinda like the tail end of Generation X, the conversation.

Often felt like it had to begin with an apology. You know, like, Hey, I'm sorry, I know you've been hurt, or I know you have this negative stereotype, but actually, and for Gen Z, you don't really need to start there. There's just you, you actually start with a, uh, there's no assumptions. So, they don't understand the context and the culture, and they, they may literally not really even know that Jesus was a real historical person.

You know, he, he may only be a swear word or, you know, a concept, but there isn't this kind of animus. I mean, you, you really almost start with a, with a blank slate, which is it, you know, it's nice sometimes to start with some, you know, like the grace of baptism. So, I'm, I'm not advocating for blank slate, but that's a different experience for those of us who are working as missionaries than I.

Having to start with those who have a little bit of a jade jaded edge to 'em. 

[00:09:36] John Poitevent: Yeah. And if, if you're listening to this and you're saying, well, I don't, I know Gen Z'ers that aren't like that at all, or My kids aren't like that at all. That may be true. That may be true. Mm-hmm. Every human is different. But when we, when one of the blessings I have with working parishes around the country is I get to grab a little more data from a larger set than just the people around me.

And I, I think you are right there. I, I'll take a blank slate any day over one that has a lot of confusion or, you know, disruption in baggage. And I, I think the best way to start is to re return their curiosity. Ask them questions, see what they think. Yes. Rather than just start telling them what we think they need to hear.

[00:10:20] Jim Jansen: Right. Because, you know, at the, like the nerdy kind of like techniques and tactics of evangelization, we always have to presume the spirit. Is raising these questions in their hearts and minds way ahead of any conversation that we have and that rightly understood our faith is an answer to those deep questions.

So, exploring those questions is a home game for us. It's just a beautiful setup with the, you know, with the spirit of God at work. 

[00:10:53] John Poitevent: Yeah, I think we often see questions as threats, especially when they're questioning foundational beliefs. And uh, one of the greatest things I've gleaned from Alpha is the follow-up question, right?

Like, instead of immediately countering their question with some apologetic response as to why they're wrong, to wonder, really go deeper, figure out what's the question behind the question. And it also shows care and concern for them as a person. I. You're not a problem. This, uh, I, I'm gonna get this wrong.

I forget who this came from, but it's actually a, a doctor over in North Carolina, a medical doctor. He said he was saying it in reference to patients, but I, I think of it in reference to parishioners or people. They're not a problem to be fixed. They're a Wayfair to be attended to. 

[00:11:48] Jim Jansen: Hmm. 

[00:11:49] John Poitevent: And I think so often we look at people as problems to be fixed rather than someone to be accompanied on a journey.

[00:11:57] Jim Jansen: The other thing I love about that, just the accompaniment, uh, language and the, the kind of the primacy of questions is it helps kind of deprofessionalize, evangelization. You don't have to have all the answers. 'cause answers aren't really the main tool. I mean, they, they matter, but not so much as just being present and attending to another person's.

Just interest in them, their worldview, the curiosity, the Lord kind of does all the, all the, all the heavy lifting. And there's a time for answers, but it's not really, you know, I I, it always pains me when you hear the kind of insecurity, I'm sure you've heard this before, where people are like, ah, I don't know.

I, I, I don't know if I could be all that helpful sharing my faith 'cause I just don't know enough and turns out like that's just, that's actually not the primary way. Just listen. That's, that's the big skillset, not knowing stuff. 

[00:12:57] John Poitevent: Yeah. I mean, the woman at, the woman at the well didn't know anything. I think, I think one of the most attractive things is to say to someone, you know, I don't know that, let's discover that together.

Well, that now I feel like you're accompanying me. I don't feel like you're trying to be the hero and the fixer in the know it all. I think that honesty is, is the most powerful thing. 

[00:13:26] Jim Jansen: John, we could stay here all day, but I want, I wanna go back to something you said earlier, just that I, I think you said like in the last five years, there's been this very hopeful shift where you've seen, I, I, I forget how you phrased it, but you've basically seen new life.

You, there's this hopefulness, uh, as you see things happening in parishes. I just wanna go back and say like, what happened? Because like, I mean, COVID didn't feel help. I'm gonna say something radical here. Covid didn't feel helpful to, to me, and, and even at the level of like fostering conversion, I was hoping it was gonna like foster pastoral conversion in us to say like, oh man, you know, 90% of our activities just got classified as unessential.

Turns out that was probably true. They weren't essential. And for most of us, we kind of ran back to them anyway. So I'm just curious, maybe I just need to hear this, what, what happened, because I believe you and I'm seeing it too, but I, I struggle to name what has happened in the last five years to give me more hope that I think what the church has been calling for for decades now is finally starting to take root.

[00:14:45] John Poitevent: Yeah. I don't, I mean, I'm not a, I don't work for Barna or Gallup or any of those people, so I'm not a professional analyst of this stuff. But what I do know is that that Covid was massive disruption. And disruption in some ways brings a reset. It's opportunity. So, there's a lot of things that just happened in an escalated timeframe.

So, for, you know, five years prior to Covid, I consistently told parishes, you need to have a good website. You need to have good data on who your parishioners are so you can connect with them virtually. And streaming at least one mass is a great idea. So, people have a window into your parish, and you need to have digital giving.

And um, you know, it's funny, but nobody did it. Nobody, people were like, oh, that's the Protestant thing, and that's not really what we do. And you know, we'll get around to it. And it's just hilarious because Covid hit, and I became brilliant, and my first webinar had a thousand people register for it.

[00:15:50] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's awesome.

[00:15:51] John Poitevent: And suddenly people wanna hear about this. So, it really escalated some innovation that needed to happen to start with. And that's just a small part of it. I'd say the other part is just, I. There's something called the diffusion of innovation curve that describes how culture changes. And so, um, the first 15% of the innovators and early adopters, uh, like the next 20, 30% are the early majority, and then the next 20, 30% is the late majority.

And then the laggards and the theory proves itself out that if you get the innovators and early adopters on board, then people begin to talk that first group of the people that are brave enough to try new things and fail and figure out the problems. Mm-hmm. The next group begins to experience a little bit of fear of missing out.

And so, then they talk to those people and then they embrace it. And then the last group is like, okay, well everybody else is doing it, so why shouldn't we? And then the laggards, they're never gonna do it to anyways. Yeah. I think we've seen a lot of that phenomenon in faith formation, whether it be OCIA.

Sacramental prep, family, faith formation, and we're not there yet, but we're seeing, I think those innovators and early adopters that had the courage to try these things, they proved true. Other people saw them and said, okay, we'll give that a try. And I think we're riding this wave that is now kind of cresting from the early majority into the late majority.

I think we're, we're not there yet, but we're getting close. 

[00:17:34] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that makes, actually, that makes a lot of sense. It, it's like the stories of those who tried new stuff, and it didn't work, and then they tried new stuff, and it didn't quite work and then they tried something else, and it did work. Those stories are starting to turn people's heads and they're like, okay, I want some of that.

[00:17:52] John Poitevent: And I think you can't underestimate the power of the internet in that I'm not just hearing the stories of the parishes around me. 'cause if I were just locked into that, I may look around and go, the church is dying. Only old people are, are in, you know, mass and nothing's changing. But whenever I can see people in other places doing great things, it gives me faith and courage that, oh, that this can't happen.

[00:18:18] Jim Jansen: Right. And it doesn't have to be the parish next door for you to see it anymore. John, what's the difference between the parishes that are, that are still stuck and struggling and those that are beginning to dream and find life again? 

[00:18:32] John Poitevent: Uh, that's a big question. I mean, I'll tell you the first thing is leadership.

[00:18:37] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:38] John Poitevent: Every organization in this world rises or falls on leadership. It, it's just, there's no way to get around it. You know, the, there's three things that we've always talked about in leadership that we say it needs to be creative, courageous, and collaborative. 

[00:18:58] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Repeat. Repeat that again. What do you got? 

[00:19:01] John Poitevent: Creative, courageous, and collaborative. So, it needs to be creative. It needs to, you know, you shared a quote with me that, that I've always used, uh, you know, where Pope Francis says that the parish is not an outdated institution. Precisely because it possesses great flexibility. It can assume quite different contours depending on the openness and missionary creativity of the pastor and the community.

And that last part is what it all hinges on, the openness and missionary creativity of the pastor and the community. And so, creativity is willing to try new things, take chances, and then the courage to act on that. You know, we can all dream and brainstorm, but if you don't execute, it's, it's worthless. So, the courage to fail, the courage to say, oh, we tried that.

It didn't work. We're gonna try something different. And then the collaboration is just that. It's not a hierarchal top-heavy structure. We believe in the calling and gifting of lay leadership. We invite them, we equip them and release them into ministry. And so those three things really have one thing in common.

And it's humility. It, it takes humility. Mm-hmm. To, to be creative. It takes humility to be willing to fail. And it takes humility to invite other people in to share the leadership. I'm not the smartest person in the room. I don't have all the answers and let go of that fear that if, if I'm not in control, it won't turn out the way it should, you know?

[00:20:39] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I, I am so, I'm so glad you said that because. As you were, as you were talking, I was, I, I kind of got in this mode where, you know, I think about some of these parish leaders who I could only imagine their heart sinking. You know, maybe it's a pastor, maybe it's evangelization, coordinator, whatever their role is, they're like, oh, crap, that's not me.

I'm not creative. Uh, I'm not courageous. But that third C right, the collaborative and really the humility, it's precisely the self-awareness to say like, Hey, I am not gonna generate the new idea. I am not gonna stick with this when resistance comes, if I have to do it alone. It's like, yeah, it's precisely that self-awareness and that humility.

That to me, is the mark between those who've seen real life and like a real sustainable renewal, and those who haven't, and it's not, I mean, just, it's not brilliance. Because there's like, there's a lot of brilliant leaders that here in the archdiocese and other places I get to work with. And sometimes that brilliance is not sustainable.

But those who are really humble and it's not just them and there's a community around them, man, like that, not only does it really work, but it keeps working when that brilliant leader is called elsewhere, 

[00:21:58] John Poitevent: I think. And I think that humility will draw other people in to serve. 

[00:22:04] Jim Jansen: Yes. Yes. 

[00:22:05] John Poitevent: What I mean is if you, if it seems like you always have all the answers and you're directing everybody telling them what to do, there's a lot of people that are gonna stand back and be like, I don't, I don't see where they need me, or I don't want to get involved in that 'cause I'm not gonna have any kind of voice.

And so those people end up kind of surrounded, those leaders end up surrounded by really moderately competent Yes. People I. And the greatest and the brightest and the most gifted, don't engage. Right. But you are so right in that. If people hear that and go, I'm not creative. Perfect example is I'm working with a pastor in New Jersey who, when I was talking to him about this, he said, I am not a creative person, but I'm open and I'm an executor.

[00:22:52] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:52] John Poitevent: And I said, father, we're gonna do great things together because yes, we can outsource the creativity. Yeah. As long as you're open to let other people share their ideas, if you can execute. I will say that's the second thing as far as the leadership goes, Hey, we can daydream and brainstorm and whiteboard all day long, but if we don't execute, it's, it's just pie in the sky, kumbaya, and it doesn't go anywhere.

Yeah. Yeah. I would say that that. Just being open to outsource things that are not a part of your natural leadership and give those people some freedom and then, but you make sure that we actually get some things done once we, you know, decide on some goals and some action steps. 

[00:23:38] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I, I love that. And, and it goes back to something you said earlier.

We, we live in a day and age where you don't have to be the smartest person in the room. You don't have to be the most creative. You can steal the creativity of an innovative parish that has some circumstances similar to yours. That's, that's like five states away. You're like, Hey, they're just like us and I love the way they're doing this, and we're gonna, we're gonna steal that idea.

And you don't, it's easier and easier in today's day and age to borrow the insights of others. 

[00:24:10] John Poitevent: Yeah. I mean, the church is one place that I fully support plagiarism, and I fully support copying. Amen. I mean, we're, we're one body. We have one mission. And you know, if you see another parish that has a great mission statement, maybe not the one next door, but let's say one a few cities away, or, I mean, hey, yeah, we're, we're all, we're all, you know, vamping off of the great commission with our mission statements.

I will say one other thing. Our, our book, great Catholic Parishes, which is only available right now in used books on Amazon. So, I'm not, I'm not doing this to try to sell books. We're gonna hopefully re-release it this year, updated, but we interviewed 250 parish leaders around the country, and we identified four practices of thriving parishes.

So, I just told you leadership, which is, is vital. But the other practices are, you know, under that. The first one is shared leadership. The second one is nurturing spiritual maturity. That we don't just put people through programs to check boxes, but we really ask ourselves how can we help them encounter Christ and accompany them in that journey.

The third thing is that they evangelize effectively. They think outside of the pews, they think outside of the parish. They think about how can we be the best parish for our community at large. Mm-hmm. Not just our people. And then the, the last thing is that they excel on Sundays. They, they recognize that 80% of our people, this is their only experience of our parish is mass.

Mm-hmm. And if they don't feel welcomed there, if they don't feel inspired there, if they don't feel like this is an uplifting experience, why would they say yes to anything else that we do? 

[00:25:56] Jim Jansen: Or why would they bring anyone else? 

[00:25:58] John Poitevent: Yeah. 

[00:25:59] Jim Jansen: Oh, that's, that's awesome that, I mean, that there's so many rhymes. You know, we've used here in the Archdiocese, Omaha, same themes, slightly different language.

You know, we call it collaborative leadership instead of shared leadership. That nurturing spiritual maturity. That's, that's for us that the concept of building a clear path to discipleship. All of the, all of the stuff. I hear a lot of echoes of divine renovation and amazing parish. It, it's fun to see, I mean, we, we started here, but it's like, okay, we, we all have the same, right?

We all, we all have the same spirit within us. We all have the same commission to go make disciples. And, and even more than as, as Catholics, we have this whole body of teaching that it's, it's really fascinating to see the rhymes of what the Lord is doing in different schools of thought, different communities that so many of us are, are coming to the same conclusions and leading into the same practices.

'cause it's just what's, what works. And, and it's, it's an overflow of the common principles and the same spirit of God. 

[00:27:07] John Poitevent: Yeah. I mean, we're all dealing with the same mission. We're all dealing with the same God. We're dealing with the same Christ and we're dealing with humans. And so, it makes sense that we're all finding the same things.

And it's great 'cause No, any one organization, not any one apostate has the capacity to help the whole country. And so, we all contribute in our unique ways to helping, uh, bring renewal to the, to the church. 

[00:27:35] Jim Jansen: Amen. Okay. John, I wanna, I wanna pivot just a little bit here. One of the, one of the things that I really approach or really appreciate about your approach and what you offer is just very practical help.

Teaching parishes, uh, I'll just give one example, but a very practical help. How do you engage and grow volunteers? Again, you know, I mean, there's very few parishes that can just meet kind of all of the service and support needs just by paid staffing. This is super practical. What's the secret here? 

[00:28:12] John Poitevent: Uh, funny you should ask.

Uh, that's probably the number one. You know, I ask parishes to list, you know, what their greatest needs are, and you know, that's always in the top there, right? Yeah. And you know, the reality is if we could afford to pay to staff every position that we needed, we would be failing our parishioners if we did so.

[00:28:34] Jim Jansen: Yes. Amen. 

[00:28:36] John Poitevent: Because if part of being a disciple is serving and growing through service and using our gifts. We aren't inviting people into that, we're really failing to disciple them. It's like a parent who doesn't have their kid do any chores and just gives them whatever money they need. What kind of child is that going to produce?

[00:28:59] Jim Jansen: Wait, wait. Can, can I answer that question? It's like it's going to produce a demanding, needy, self-centered consumeristic child or parishioner. 

[00:29:13] John Poitevent: Entitled. 

[00:29:13] Jim Jansen: Which... 

[00:29:14] John Poitevent: Yeah..

[00:29:14] Jim Jansen: Right. Which is actually, it's like, oh, sadly. I, I feel for the parishes that have worked their tails off to serve and have accidentally created a little bit of that entitlement.

[00:29:27] John Poitevent: More, probably more than a little bit. 

[00:29:29] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Where parishioners are like, give us the next thing you're saying. There's a better way. 

[00:29:33] John Poitevent: In the same way that a parent does it probably out of of love and it backfires. I think in the same way it can happen in the parish. And then we complain that there's nobody that, that there's a small number of people doing all the same stuff and it's always the same people.

Right. So, I would just start by saying engaging volunteers first. We've gotta shift that mindset from even that question. A friend of mine, Don Simmons, has a, a master's in volunteerism and he is an adjunct professor at, at University of California in Fresno. 

[00:30:13] Jim Jansen: I didn't even know that was a thing. 

[00:30:14] John Poitevent: I know. And people always, uh, laugh whenever I say that.

And I say, well, if I told you he had a master's in organizational management, would you think that was legitimate? And you would, but, but we are an organization that has far more volunteers than it does staff. So yeah, it makes sense that it'd be good to understand how that works. So, he said, and he is a man of faith, and he says.

The problem is we've forgotten our calling. Our calling is not to recruit people to get our work done. Our calling mm-hmm. Is to make disciples and release them into ministry. 

[00:30:49] Jim Jansen: Wow. That's awesome. Build that out more. That's hu that's huge. 

[00:30:54] John Poitevent: Yeah. So, so if our mission is to make disciples and part of being a disciple is living a life of giving and serving with our gifts and talents and all of that, then if we make disciples, uh, I, I guess another way to say it is we don't have a stewardship problem.

We have a discipleship problem when we lack those things. Yes. So, if we invest in people's lives and we accompany them, they will begin to inherently live as disciples. Being people that, that give and serve and love and share. And, uh, I mean, I think one of the greatest examples is when people either come out of, uh, OCIA or back from a retreat and they've, they've got that faith that's been nurtured and they're growing as a disciple.

And what's the first thing they usually say is, how can I get more involved? What can I do? How can I serve? Right? And so, we should learn from that and go, oh, this is what happens when we invest in people's relationship with Christ and a company. Then we get those other things on the end, but we've kind of been afraid to invite them into that.

And then we ask from them to behave the way disciples behave. And I think, you know, I think it was maybe Pope Benedict that described, some people would say pew potatoes, but I think he says baptized pagans maybe. But wow, we're, we're wanting things from people that they don't have within them to give. So yeah, that, that's a much bigger answer to your question of like the volunteer problem.

But I would say once we reframe it as a discipleship problem, I think the second part is people are engaged through relationships. Whether, whatever kind of parishioner engagement you're looking for, they're engaged through relationships. So, for instance, one of the biggest complaints I hear is people take part in a sacrament and then they don't come back until the next sacrament.

Well, here's my question. How many meaningful relationships did you engage them in during their sacramental prep? Because if the answer is zero, then I'm not surprised. 'cause they didn't have a reason to be there before the sacrament. 

[00:33:21] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:22] John Poitevent: But if you do it in a way that spans weeks and is in small groups and they connect with other people in their life stage and you maybe even offer them to come back to something that's meaningful to their life stage, well that's a whole different scenario.

[00:33:36] Jim Jansen: Yeah, no, I mean, you're pointing, all of the data shows that, like, people that are disaffiliated, a huge percentage of them, it's just 'cause they don't feel connected. You know, my kids graduated from high school and I just, I'm not connected here. I I, I'm suddenly a widower. Whatever. Whatever it is. It's not.

It's not primarily a doctrinal issue. Again, not that it doesn't matter, but I mean, what you're, John, what you're saying here is really revolutionary. 'cause it kind of throws everything on its head. The whole like required service hours. Some of the, I dunno if it's fair to say it's typical, but some of, some of the approaches, they're, they're radically unhelpful and, and we're missing, well, what, what would we do?

I was like, fine. Don't try and require people to give something they don't have, don't, you know, expect them to behave as part of a community when they don't have any relational connection. What, what do you actually do to like, to really go after the root? I, if it's not a volunteer problem, if it's a discipleship problem, what do you do?

[00:34:51] John Poitevent: This relationship community aspect is part of it. Mm-hmm. And just to tag onto that, before we transition. The work of John VEX St. Mary's press their research going, going, gone. The dynamics of disaffiliation of Catholic youth, to your point earlier that there is no one doctrinal issue, there's no one church scandal that, that they can point to as the it.

It's more like a Jenga tower that this piece came out and that piece came out and they say it happened slowly and then suddenly, and we always point to the one thing that, the straw that broke the camel's back, but that's not it. What we do see is that that relationships can transcend differences in doctrine or differences in beliefs about who the church is, right?

That that relationships, people that are in a place where they feel their insecure relationships will even hang in there and wrestle through those things in the midst of relationship rather than just leave. And I will tell you one example. There's a pastor I worked with in Buffalo, and they had, uh, some very significant scandals in their, in their diocese.

And he had a listening session. He had an open town hall listening session. He was not afraid to have an open mic, and it was guided by a professional facilitator, but it, it got a little rough. There were people that had feelings and were very, uh, there were people that were directly affected by these scandals.

There was even a deacon who got up and confessed for the first time publicly that he had been abused as a child. 

[00:36:38] Jim Jansen: Mm. 

[00:36:39] John Poitevent: And a woman came up to the pastor afterwards and said, father, in spite of everything, the reason I'm still here is because you do things like this and. Regardless of what we've been through, I know that this is a family that cares about me and that you care about me and that I can fully be me here and wrestle with what I'm re wrestling with.

And you're not afraid of that. I think those kinds of environments, and I'm not saying that we just say anything goes and that nothing matters and there's nothing that's true. I'm saying that we give people some space in the midst of that to have relationships be connected, belong. 

[00:37:23] Jim Jansen: Yeah. You know, John, I've kind of meditated on that, that truth, and to me the, the kind of, the epitome biblical story of that is St.

Thomas the apostle, like right post resurrection, he's, you know, he missed the appearance. Who knows what he was doing, but he misses the appearance of Jesus and like literally he thinks everybody else is crazy. Like he is doctrinally at odds with the community on a fairly important issue. He's not alive and I'm sure of it.

And unless I put my finger in the wounds, you can't convince me otherwise. And yet, right a week later, he's still there because he belongs there. 'cause he has friendships there, he has relationships there. And then Jesus comes and does the rest. And I think it's just this beautiful illustration. I mean, right at the very beginning, I don't know, may maybe Peter, maybe a couple folks wanted to mess with him or poke with him about the doctrine.

But the relationship was there, the belonging was there, such that when he, with next week, when Jesus showed up, Jesus took care of it. He had the, he had the encounter. And I, I really, I really love, uh, love that image. 'cause I feel like this isn't. This is not a new modern phenomenon. I mean, it is, and, and maybe we're seeing it, you know, and experiencing it in a way that previous generations haven't.

But this is, to me, it, it's, it's the fundamentals of who we are as a Christian community. Um, and I think you see it, you know, whatever, what would that be? Pretty, pretty early year, one of, of, uh, of the church gathered. 

[00:39:17] John Poitevent: Yeah. I think part of what we're seeing now is just a generation that is more committed to authenticity.

They're not just gonna check the box and nod their head and say yes. Mm-hmm. Even though deep down inside, they're really grappling with all of this. I think in the past that was kind of like the, the path of least resistance was just to say you agreed, right? Mm-hmm. And they're not doing that. But I think back to your Thomas story, I love that story for so many reasons.

And if you, if you look at the Caravaggio painting, Christ is actually holding his hand. Mm-hmm. He's holding the wrist of Thomas, guiding it into his side. And I think when people doubt and struggle and wrestle and question, do we invite them into an encounter with Christ or do we tell them why they're wrong?

There's a big difference in those two things. And Jesus invited him into deeper encounter and trusting that as he encounters Christ, things will be made right. You know that he will gain a different perspective. But the other story I love in the gospels is the, the man that came to Jesus and said, if you can, will you heal my son?

And, and Jesus, you know, there's a lot of people that come to Christ for healing in the gospels, but this one's unique in his question starts with if. Jesus points that out. And I love the man's response. I believe, help me overcome my unbelief. 

[00:40:53] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:40:54] John Poitevent: And I don't know, in our parishes, is it okay for someone to say, I believe, and I don't believe, will you help me journey through that?

Mm-hmm. Is it, do people feel safe to say, I believe helped me in my unbelief because that man's child was still healed even in the midst of his imperfect belief? 

[00:41:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:41:14] John Poitevent: So, I mean, that's a bigger conversation and it's, it's off of volunteers. But the reason I go there from volunteers is because the way people get engaged in serving the most sustainable, authentic, and, and I say committed way, is through relationships, is through personal invitation.

So, the statistics are that the percentage of people that respond to a. Pulpit announcement are about 7% and half of those people you don't want serving in the area of ministry that you are trying to get people to serve in. Yeah. Right. Half of those people will sign up for anything that you offer and you, they show up and you're like, man, I don't want them leading a small group.

They're, they're not the right person for that. Or, you know, I don't want them working with our teenagers. I've seen how they talk to their own kids. I don't want that. Yeah. But you've just said, we're desperate. Please come sign up. Right. So, you get a low response rate, and you get a low-quality rate. Yeah.

'cause there's no vetting, there's no criteria other than we're desperate. Yeah, I would just love it if we would leave, if we would just remove the words need from our vocabulary. Like we need, we're in great need. 

[00:42:34] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:35] John Poitevent: And also stop using the word recruit, because that's what the military does. That's what sports teams do, that's what businesses do.

And I, I just would love it if we would embrace this idea that personal invitation is the best way, and it works 60 something percent of people who have a, a personal, meaningful invitation from a friend to serve with them. Over 60% say yes. I like those odds a lot better. 

[00:43:04] Jim Jansen: Oh, that's so good. You know, and John, just to speak to, you're just like, ah, you know, okay.

Are, are we really talking about volunteers and, and, and how you, you know, how you call them, draw them in, I mean. For those who wanted a quick fix, Hey, give me a best practice. Give, gimme the right phrase. No, but, but yes, we're, we're talking about it. 'cause all of this, all of parish renewal is really about a, a con a conversion in our own hearts and minds.

You know, at our behavior and our way of doing things is an overflow of what we think, and we believe about ourselves, about others. And, oh, if only it were as easy as just finding a new tool or a better phrase, or a, you know, a, a best practice or a technique. There's stuff in us that needs to change. I I, I want to give you a chance, 'cause I'm reminded of a conversation we had where we're talking about, right.

The common complaint is like, oh, parents these days. Sports is their God, and they, they spend all their time taking their kids to these sports events and, and they're, they're not prioritizing their faith. I love the way you respond to that question. Would you just kinda walk us through that and, and how you help take people a little deeper in their thought?

[00:44:30] John Poitevent: Yeah. Before I do that, I will just acknowledge people are busier than ever. That is a reality. That's not, um, the pace of life today. Yes. Everything that's coming, that, that's a reality. I will say though, even more so because of that, if your recruiting plea for volunteers is an announcement. 

[00:44:54] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:54] John Poitevent: That is generic and impersonal and vague. Meaning, if I say yes to this, I may have to do this until I die. If I say yes to this, I may have to change parishes if I wanna stop. I will preface this by saying, in a busy world, if you'll make your invitation personal, if you'll make it clear, if you'll give people exactly what you're asking from them, how much time, here's how you're gonna be trained, and you know what, in a couple weeks or a couple months.

If you don't like it, that's fine, just let me know. Mm-hmm. We'll, we'll see if there's something else. Busy people will not say yes to a vague request. They're too smart for that. 

[00:45:36] Jim Jansen: Yes. Oh, that's so good. 

[00:45:38] John Poitevent: So that's the, that's the first piece. If we could just do that, uh, have job descriptions or ministry descriptions for volunteer roles, that would be huge as well, because it's right there on paper.

It's clear, it's not like there was a misunderstanding. People know what you're asking of them. They know what the timeframes are. They know where they have an entrance ramp and an exit ramp. But to your question about families involved in sports, and I'll just do a little, we'll do a little dialogue here with you, you know.

Have you had kids involved in sports? 

[00:46:09] Jim Jansen: I have, yes. All, almost all of them? 

[00:46:13] John Poitevent: Yes. So, when you are sitting there with the other parents in the grandstands for a couple hours, who knows how long, depending on what you're involved with, if you're involved in Swim meets God's mercy on you, you're, you're there for like half a day.

Yeah. Gymnastics, same thing. What, what kind of conversations happen up there? What goes on? 

[00:46:32] Jim Jansen: Oh, I mean, you're sitting there, you're talking about. Your kids probably talking a little bit about the refs, uh, the other teams, and then just stuff of life. Usually not real deep, uh, unless you, you know, I've got a little bit of a missionary happen, but you're just, you're just talking about stuff and life and sports and kids and all the stuff.

[00:46:53] John Poitevent: Yeah. And you may, somebody may say, Hey, your kid got into that program, how did they do that? Or, Hey, you get a little bit older, like, what schools are y'all looking at? Mm-hmm. Or, Hey, are you, what about these essays you have to write to get into college? Accompaniment is happening in those bleachers. 

[00:47:12] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:13] John Poitevent: It may not be a spiritual accompaniment, but it's people that they are bonding and they're journeying through life together. And so, my first thing is before we start throwing stones at all these other places that people are, whether that be CrossFit or or sports or whatever, ask ourselves, what are people getting there that they're not getting at my parish?

[00:47:36] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:37] John Poitevent: Because I can tell you, when they go to CrossFit, they're getting community, they're getting a sense of purpose. They're getting people that are cheering them on and personal growth. And those people, they do life together. Yeah. I guess my first thing would be put yourself in their position or maybe even ask them so that you can better understand why and not just assume that, you know.

[00:48:02] Jim Jansen: Yeah, no, I mean that totally rings true. I remember. Because I was one of those kind of judgy people about like, you select sports or travel, whatever. And then, and then I finally had a, had a kid that was talented enough to play on a select sports team, and we went for it. And it was like, wow, this is fun.

Like I, I, I, I get to sit with these parents, and we have conversations and they're cheering for my kid and I'm cheering for their kid. And we get to see each other regularly. It's, you know, just, it, it's like, wow, this is really fun, and I feel like I belong here. I feel supported here. Again, not spiritually, but.

There's somebody cheering for my kid and there's somebody who's happy to see me and Hey, pull up a chair and how's it going? And it was, yeah, it was actually, it's like, wow, this is, I get why people like this. 

[00:48:51] John Poitevent: And then they go to Sacramento Prep and it's in a musty basement and the snacks are bad and they have to sit and listen to someone drone on and then, uh, they get their certificate or whatever they needed to get, and then we complain that they don't come back.

[00:49:10] Jim Jansen: Right. And nobody said hi to them the whole time, except for maybe the coordinator in a rushed frenzy finishing the last-minute setups. 

[00:49:20] John Poitevent: Yep. And hopefully a lot of people are listening to this, and that's not their scenario, but I can tell you in a lot of places, that's a very real scenario. And so, again, if we are offering them things that.

Impact their life and their life stage. I mean, are we doing parenting classes? Are we doing, uh, moms groups? I mean, what if you did a, a, uh, brought in somebody in your parish who works in this space to help parents with their college entrance essays, or what are, what are huge needs in their life that you actually have parishioners who are like, well, this is my gift.

I don't know how that could ever be beneficial to the parish. Well, maybe, maybe there's a, or, or even like young couples coming in, prep for marriage. Maybe you do a finance class for 'em, or maybe you offer some sort of marriage mentoring and their parents live out of town. But this is a couple that's gonna have us over once a month for dinner and we just get to connect.

[00:50:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. John, our, our time is totally flying here, but I wanna, like, before we're done, I want to give you a chance to talk a little bit about I. Catechesis particularly kinda like the, in the faith formation realm. You talked very strikingly, just how much hope you have around that. You're right, I see it too.

I would share your sense of hopefulness about what's beginning, but I know for a lot of people, ugh, it's, it, you know, parish leaders, it, it feels heavy. Those who have to attend, it feels boring. Like, talk a little bit about just the, the family faith formation movement maybe. What's different about that now from ages past and, and why you're finding hope there?

[00:51:10] John Poitevent: Yeah. The places I see it thriving are doing the things that we've already been talking about. Maybe once a month they'll bring parents and kids together in the same room and they'll have families sit around tables together and they have a. A little bit of catechesis and a lot of sharing and um, or maybe they'll split the parents and kids off and it's not a parent's, Hey, here's a chance for us to talk at you.

It's a chance for Okay. You to connect with other parents. And then maybe here's a, here's a spiritual question that's pretty unthreatening. You know, I know I've done some of these, these monthly gatherings with parents and kids. You know, I'll have them answer a question that is, is pretty simple for both of them that there's no wrong answer.

Like if you could ask parents, I want you to ask your kids this, and then kids, I want you to ask your parents this. If you could ask Jesus one question, what would it be? 

[00:52:08] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:09] John Poitevent: Well, there's nobody that doesn't know the answer to that. 

[00:52:12] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:13] John Poitevent: And it also, you're giving parents a chance to practice what you hope they do at home.

[00:52:20] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:21] John Poitevent: So, we often tell them what they should be doing at home, but they need training wheels they need. And also, really letting them know, Hey, you may not even know what you believe right now in your faith, and that's okay if all of this is intimidating for you because you're at a place in your own journey where you're struggling.

You are welcome here. We wanna accompany you. Obviously you've brought your kid here for a reason. There's something that wants you to be here or wants your kid to be here. They're gonna have questions and it's okay to not know the answers. And you can, here's some ways that you can help discover that answer with them.

So, I see that kind of environment where it's relational, it's communal. There are discussions that are open and non-threatening. And then I see a lot of them doing these take-home boxes for families. One of my favorite ministries that does this is out in California. Uh, my friend Steven Serafin, uh, works for them and they have whole programs for faith formation where, you know, every month you get a different box that has, here's a craft, here's a story, here's a prayer to pray together.

[00:53:37] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It's, they're awesome. I've done 'em with, with my kids and in fact, we've had Father Tim Donovan on the equip cast twice now. It's, it's great stuff. 

[00:53:47] John Poitevent: Yeah. And you can even do kind of a show and tell, so when you're introducing this kind of new model of family faith formation, bring the parents together and bring the families together and put these boxes on the tables and let them see them.

And then maybe walk through a box with them where you're, you're really accompanying them and guiding them. There's this mentorship model that we often talk about it in the volunteer realm. But it's transferable to everything. And it's that, hey, I do while you watch and then you help me. We do it together, and then I help you do it.

And then you go do it. And so often we just hand stuff off to people. We hand 'em a binder with pages of curriculum or we hand them even a box, but we miss that step of, of mentoring them in it and accompanying them in it to where they feel comfortable with it. So, I, I see that happening as well. 

[00:54:48] Jim Jansen: And when you do it, ah, it, it elicits such loyalty, right?

Such gratitude. Because I would say, you know, back to millennial parents, that's one of the places we consistently see millennials, yet they come to our schools, and they come to our religious education, and they have a deep, deep desire to be good parents. And so, if you can equip them to be the kind of mom and dad they want to be, oh my goodness.

The loyalty that you foster, the gratitude that you elicit is really, really powerful. 

[00:55:27] John Poitevent: And I will say that many of those who want to be good parents are terrified that they will not. 

[00:55:33] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 'cause they've seen it done poorly. It's like they know they matter, but they, they don't know how to do it. Or at least they, they're afraid, I'm gonna screw this up, and if you can, you're like, no, no, no, we're gonna help you.

Oh, my goodness. It's a really, a hopeful thing. I think it's like, man, whole nother conversation. I think that's a, that's, that's a huge avenue to explore for the renewal of Catholic education and actually drawing families that simply come to us for a commodity. You know, good education. I actually drawing them into the full life of faith in the life of the parish.

There's so much potential there. If we attend to actually accompanying parents, 

[00:56:16] John Poitevent: I'll say one other thing on that family faith formation piece. Something that Stephen really just brought to light to me is that family faith formation starts with marriage prep. And if you want your family faith formation to be something that happens in community and happens with, uh, the whole family involved, your marriage prep needs to be that way so that it's not a new experience for people.

And so, I'll give you the best example I know of, of a very simple prep for marriage that included more than what I'm gonna describe to you, but this was an integral part of it. My friend Flip who works at St. Monica's out in California. He said, I've been through baptism prep three times and I, I'm gonna give you an example of baptism prep, but this could easily be the same model for marriage prep.

He said, the first time I went, they put in a video cassette, and we listened to this priest talk for like 45 minutes and then they gave us a certificate and I went as a godparent. And he said, the second time I went, I also went as a godparent, different parish. And we sat in this room and rose, and a priest got up to talk and about 15 minutes in, I wish I had the video cassette from the first time that I went through baptism prep, and they gave us a certificate and you know, we're done.

He said the third time I went was at St. Monica's for my, my own marriage, and he said, I. We came in, someone spoke for 20 minutes, and they put us in small groups with three other couples, and they said, write down your dreams for your child and share them with the group. And he said, uh, the second class, it was three class, three, three sessions.

The second session, somebody got up and talked for 10 or 20 minutes, and then they put us in our groups, and they said, tell us about what you're thinking about naming your child, or, I'm sorry, not what you're thinking about, but but your name of your child and why you chose that name. And then the third time they got together that somebody talked for 10 or 20 minutes, and they said, share with each other about your godparents and why you chose them.

And he said after three or four meetings of that, we wanted to be in a, we. A new parent, small group. 'cause we had built such good friendships and connected. And so again, depending on the size of your parish as far as marriage prep, it may be something that you, uh, only have a few marriages a year and it's not as easy to do in this kind of small group setting.

But find a way in the midst of that preparation process to engage them in a small group community of other people in their life stage. Maybe some people who are in their first few years of marriage. And you will find that people will come back because they have friends now that are active members of the parish where if they just sat down with a priest and had a few meetings and get married and they're done.

And then people will say, well, a lot of people are gonna say no to that. Well, that's okay. That's the thing is we can't be afraid if we're gonna engage people on a deeper level. We can't be afraid of people saying no. If our job was to get as many people to check the box and go through the prep as possible, then that would be a different goal.

But our goal is to make disciples. So how are we going to engage people in encountering Christ and being accompanied in him through those sacraments? 

[01:00:20] Jim Jansen: Man, that, uh, that is awesome. Okay, John, we could go all day. We need to stop, but I just wanna give you one last moment here kind of question and then, uh, we'll make sure that you can share where, where people know how to get ahold of you.

John, I want you. As one of these people who are listening to this, they're out for a walk and they don't even know when, you know, maybe about 10 minutes ago they just stopped walking and they're just like listening. Maybe they sat down, and they love what you're saying, but they're a little overwhelmed.

They're a little discouraged. What do you wanna say to them? 

[01:00:58] John Poitevent: Well, first I just, I wanna applaud you. I wanna give you a standing ovation that you are someone who, in their free time, is seeking out ways to grow in their vocation, in their calling, in their ministry. I just think that you probably feel like you're, you're not doing.

As well as you would hope. You probably feel like you see all the ways that you're lacking, and I just want you to know that God looks down and is like, that's one of my kids that are like giving their time to learn and grow so that they can help serve people and help them encounter Christ. And that's no small thing.

Again, it's a busy world, and if you're taking time outta that busy world to do this in your life, uh, I just hope that you receive that. I would say, boy, engage yourself in more, more of these things like this podcast where you can be encouraged and inspired, maybe outside of your own situation. And then I would, I would say, uh, I love this principle of do for one what you wish you could do for all.

And that is start small. Don't despise small beginnings. Jesus started pretty small. Love your neighbor. Engage in community in your parish. And in helping other people grow in their faith, meet them where they're at, do all the things that we're talking about just with those around you. And I've never met someone that has three or four relationships that are life giving spiritual relationships of accompaniment that, that aren't invigorated by that.

Mm-hmm. You know, and so listen, God, I think we overestimate what can happen in the short term and we're really discouraged by it a lot of times. But we underestimate what can happen in the long term if we start small and we're faithful and that exponential compounding interest over time. And so, I would say just look where you can be useful, engage, love people, accompany them and, and I guess lastly.

Just don't forget that it starts with nurturing your own heart. Anything we do for the church needs to happen out of an overflow of, of what's happening in our own heart. And don't forget to devote time to that so that you are giving out of 

[01:03:36] Jim Jansen: that. Thank you, John. That's fantastic. How can, how can people get connected to you, uh, to great Catholic parishes?

[01:03:44] John Poitevent: I mean, it's very simple. It's great. Catholic parishes.org, that's our site. Uh, my email is john@greatcatholicparishes.org. Uh, I love working with parish leaders. I do weekend workshops with parishes. Kind of the growing volunteer thing we've talked about. We have parishes invite all their volunteers to come and we talk to them about personal invitation.

We talk to them about something you and I didn't really get to. And that is inviting younger leaders up. Mm-hmm. Inviting the next generation into leadership. We're never gonna grow our ministries in our parish if the old guard won't let go of its leadership roles. And so, uh, I help parishes break through those kind of lids on their growth.

And, uh, I love helping leaders and coaching them and helping them discover breakthroughs. 

[01:04:35] Jim Jansen: Awesome. John, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for the wisdom you shared there. There's so much here. Uh, and those of you who are listening, like. It's okay to listen twice. 'cause chances are you missed something as you were on your walk or on your drive.

Uh, and yeah, take a moment. Share this out with somebody you know who needs to hear it again. Thanks John. Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip arch omaha.org.

God bless and see you next time.