[00:00:00] Jim: All right, everybody. I sit down with Jonathan and Amanda Teixeira today, founders of Wallet Win. We have an amazing conversation about how the Lord wants to be a part of your finances, how peace and joy and freedom of the gospel, uh, isn't just limited to Sunday and the, the giving stuff that Jesus wants to be a part of your budget and your finances. Uh, they are authors and that we walk through just a little bit of the principles of Catholic money management. You're going to love the conversation today. Take a listen. 

[00:00:39] Intro: Everybody. Welcome to the equip cast a weekly podcast for the archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

[00:01:00] Jim: Jonathan and Amanda Teixeira. Welcome to the EquipCast. How are you doing? Good. Thank you very much for having us, Jim. Yeah, glad to be here. Okay, so this is fun. We have, right, full disclosure, we've known each other for a long time. Uh, I didn't think about this, but Amanda, we met first. That would have been... 

[00:01:19] Amanda: 20 years ago.

[00:01:20] Jim: 20 years ago...[laughter] I was looking for a date and then you just like went with like the cumulative like 20 years ago. Uh, we were 12 then. No, not quite. Uh, okay. So, you guys are the founders of wallet. When just published a wonderful book, how to attack debt, build savings and change the world through generosity.
We're going to dive into that in a bit here, but just kind of tell people like who you are and especially just a little bit about your faith journey. 

[00:01:56] Jonathan: Well, I grew up in Pennsylvania, church going family, going to mass every week. Dad read at mass. I went to CCD every week, didn't understand why other kids weren't paying attention.
But then, uh, junior high, high school, just started thinking, you know what, I think I probably know better than all this church stuff. And so, I kept going to things. I even went to World Youth Day. I think I was probably just heavily, uh, swayed by some of my friends and just started thinking, you know, I don't even know if this is real.
Uh, so then I thought, okay, I'm going to college. This is my chance. I'm going to stop going to church. And then I met a missionary with focus, and he invited me to... 

[00:02:42] Amanda: At your orientation, right? 

[00:02:44] Jonathan: No, it was on Um, we went to the chapel. At orientation over the summer... 

[00:02:49] Amanda: and your dad forced you to sign up for something.

[00:02:51] Jonathan: Yeah, because the campus manager was like, Oh yeah, on Thursday nights, we've got mass and dinner. And, and my dad's like, Hey, you don't have to eat the dorm food. I thought, okay, dad. 

[00:03:02] Jim: That's awesome. Your chance just like evaporated within moments of stepping foot. 

[00:03:05] Jonathan: Yes. Yes. And then, uh, so then I got to campus, but then I ran into a missionary.
Who invited me to come, you know, to a barbecue or something like that and met some other guys and started hanging out with them and they're a lot nicer. I liked it better to hanging out with them instead of these other guys I was hanging out with. And then I got talked into going on a retreat there in the beginning of the year and everything changed.
Uh, there were all these people, they're very, they're all total strangers to me, but I could tell that they cared about me. And then, you know, we had adoration, I went to confession probably the first time in years. And I was in, like, I, I rearranged my schedule so I could go to the thing on Thursday instead of blow it off.
Um, I, I just went all in, joined a Bible study, all that, and totally, you know, learned how to pray. All of that just changed my life.

[00:03:57] Jim: That's so awesome. I love it. Like you had this plan to wander away and the Lord didn't even give you the chance. 

[00:04:06] Jonathan: Not even one Sunday, no.

[00:04:11] Jim: That's great. All right, Amanda. 

[00:04:13] Amanda: So yeah, mine was a little, it was similar. Also, my freshman year of college, you know, I grew up going to Catholic grade school, Catholic high school, but faith was kind of just this outside thing. It wasn't that important. You know, we went to mass on Sundays when it didn't conflict with sports schedules and things like that.
So, when I got down to University of Nebraska, I joined a sorority, and some girls in the sorority, the very first week, you know, I did go to Mass, but then these girls came up to me and they said, Hey, we, we heard you were a Christian and we want you to come to our Bible study. And I thought, what? Bible study?
I didn't know that Catholics studied the Bible. So, I went to this, not knowing what it was, but it wasn't a Catholic Bible study. It was a Protestant non denomination. It turns out you were right. 

[00:05:01] Jim: At least, at least at the time. Yeah. 

[00:05:04] Amanda: Yes. At the time I was right. And so, I went to this Bible study, and I loved it.
It felt like scripture was just jumping off the page at me and I'd never heard it presented so dynamically. And then quickly, you know, they started asking me questions about Catholicism and I had no answers. And so, I felt duped by the church. How could I go through all those years of Catholic education and not be able to answer why we think that Mary was sinless?
You know, I felt like something had been hidden from me. And so out of just anger and feeling stupid, I just decided I'm going to leave the church. And so, I got really involved with that organization for the next year and a half was leading Bible studies with them, discipling them. And then I ran into a focus missionary at a sorority philanthropy at two in the morning and she heard that I used to be Catholic and took me out to coffee, struck up a friendship.
It was Kristen, right? This was Kristen. This is one of your teammates. You sent her after me. Yeah. And, um, you know. 

[00:06:01] Jim: At two in the morning, I might add. 

[00:06:02] Amanda: I'm serving taco meat, and this is the last conversation I think I'm about to have, but the Lord set it up. We became friends and then there was a cancellation for this for one of the focus conferences I think like the day before and I knew some of my sorority sisters going and I thought oh, they don't really know Jesus So I'm gonna go on this thing for free so I can evangelize them.
Well, the joke was on me because I went to all these talks on all the issues that I had, but I didn't know that, you know, Tim Gray was going to bring the heat and totally flap all my arguments down on the floor and that Dr. Sri was going to be able to defend Mary so well. And then the keynote was Dr.
Scott Hahn talking about the Eucharist. And so that night I went to adoration, and I think for the first time in my entire life, I actually had just heard that we believed that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist, and now we're going to have adoration. And so, this felt like a huge deal. And I asked Jesus, you know, if it's you, you need to tell me.
If it's not, You need to tell me and I need to bolt out of here. And lo and behold, Jesus walks in, I look up, I see him, and it was just this instant inaudible voice inside that said, it's me. And so really haven't looked back since that time, but yeah, both of us are freshman year in college is when, when the Lord got ahold of us.

[00:07:21] Jim: I remember some, you know, some of that. I don't think we knew each other until after the focus conference. And I got to see the on-fire Amanda. It was like, let's go. And it was, yeah, it was a lot of fun. And I don't think that passion has gone away. The Lord has channeled it. You guys have this beautiful I'm going to call it a ministry because I just tend to see God working through it.
I don't think you would maybe label it a ministry. I'll let you guys speak for yourselves, but you founded Wallet Win. Just wrote a book, again, how to attack debt, build savings and change the world through generosity. Can you tell us a little bit more about like, what did the Lord do to lead you to start this?

[00:08:03] Jonathan: So, after college, we joined Focus as missionaries and um, third year on staff, we started a Dating. Dating. Got married our fourth. And one of my wedding presents to my lovely bride was a big pile of student loans. 

[00:08:21] Jim: And some credit card debt. It's ours now, together, forever. 

[00:08:26] Jonathan: And a very small, uh, fundraising support team, uh, to bring to the table as well.
So, things are not, not that great. 

[00:08:35] Jim: Yeah. And for context, for those who don't know, you were raising your salary as a missionary with some substantial debt. Yes. As well. Yeah. And the raising the salary wasn't super successful at that point. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:08:50] Jonathan: Okay. So, uh, we, and then I, of course, in all my financial wisdom at the time thought let's get a couple of free nights.
Let's put the honeymoon on a credit card. And then I forgot about it, and it was due during the honeymoon. 

[00:09:05] Amanda: While we were on the honeymoon. I got an email about it. And I am not somebody who pays, like, I've never done credit card debt. It causes me to have panic attacks. And I saw that we had this bill due, and I wasn't sure how we were going to pay it.
And so, we had this... 

[00:09:20] Jim: On the honeymoon... 

[00:09:21] Amanda: on the honeymoon! 

[00:09:22] Jonathan: Yeah. Like the second day of our marriage. Wow. 

[00:09:25] Jim: Okay. So, like, wow. So right at the...

[00:09:28] Jonathan: Right away!

[00:09:29] Amanda: Right away... 
[00:09:30] Jim: Right away. Do you guys see the pattern here? It's like, I'm going to run away from the church. Nope. Actually, I'm going to run away from my money problems.
No, actually. 

[00:09:40] Amanda: Yep. So yeah, we got home and obsessed. Amanda was like. Find every bank account, find every, you know, place we owe debt. Let's get it all open. Let's tally it up. And we had 25, 000 in debt. And then, you know, we looked at our checks, you know, our, our income and our take home pay was about 35, 000 a year.
So, we both, we were just like, that's. Wow. Uh, this feels really bad because we almost owe what we make in a year. And so, it just looked like the next couple of years would be a very mediocre existence if we didn't figure this out. 

[00:10:15] Jonathan: Yeah. So, we just had to figure things out. Obviously, I had never budgeted before or learned any of those skills.
Um, I was still a little resistant at the beginning. I thought I could find my way out even though I had been the one to find. Um, but we, you know, we, we got there, we figured it out. Um. 

[00:10:34] Amanda: Well, one of our big early influences, um, you know, I had been through a Dave Ramsey class financial peace university when I was in college.
Yeah. And so, I told Jonathan, okay, I did this back in college. Read this book. You know, read this book. You know, the total money makeover. 

[00:10:50] Jonathan: I read it eventually. And then I thought, okay, yeah, let's, let's do this thing. So, we, it was coming up, it was, that took a couple months. Uh, so it was coming up on the new year.
We thought, okay, this is our year. 2012 is the Teixeira year. Somehow. We're going to get out of debt. We thought if we do it in a year, that's our goal. Maybe we'll, it'll make us really hustle and figure it out and work hard. And we'll get out in 18 months, maybe, right? It's our stretch. And then we started doing that.
We made our first budget. It was terrible. We forgot a bunch of stuff. We got better at that as time went on. And then we started... 

[00:11:28] Jim: Oh, we have to pay for water. 

[00:11:29] Amanda: Whoa. Yeah. You can't just put 60 aside for groceries. 

[00:11:34] Jim: Surprise. Yeah. 

[00:11:36] Jonathan: Yeah. So, uh, yeah, we started just gaining momentum, getting our feet under us, uh, fundraised a little bit more, but not crazy amounts.
And then we sold a bunch of stuff, got really creative. And then we were, we paid off the last of our debt. Seven and a half months later. 

[00:11:54] Jim: Wow, you had a debt that was almost equivalent to your annual income. And not only did you manage to pay it off less than a year. It really wasn't because you dramatically increased your income.
You just figured out how to cut expenses, budget plan. 

[00:12:14] Amanda: Yeah, we, we lived. That's awesome. We lived in an area where we really, you know, we could live on very little. We lived very close to our workplace. We sold off, you know, a second car we didn't need 'cause we worked together. Mm-hmm. And you had a moped?

[00:12:31] Jim: Um, wait, were you riding the moped together? 

[00:12:33] Amanda: No.

[00:12:34] Jonathan: No. 

[00:12:35] Jim: Okay. Unfortunately, because the mental image... 
[00:12:37] Amanda: Um, and we found out we were moving, so there were just these little things where, you know, when you're finding out you can move, you're moving. If this wasn't on our radar, we could have, you know, just moved everything. It probably could have cost us a lot to, to move everything we owned and store it. And then, but we thought, let's take advantage of this because we were in that mindset of how could we get out of debt more quickly.
And so we just. We're newlyweds. Everything we have is basically junk that was given to us. So, let's just sell it all. Yeah. And then we don't have to store it. 

[00:13:13] Jim: Why would I pay to move this? Yeah. 

[00:13:15] Amanda: Yes. Yeah. So it was just like little tweaks that we would kind of come up with. You know, we told our parents like, let us sell a bunch of stuff from your basement and we'll split the profits 50 50.
Just little things like that we would do. And it all went towards the debt. So, we were able to live on very little. That is true. So, we freed up a lot of our income to go towards the debt. We did fundraise a couple hundred extra dollars per month, which, you know, made up over the long haul, but it wasn't significant in that, in that short time span.
And then really just moving and selling off the second car. And those were the types of things that really added up. But if we weren't in that hustle, we want to get this done. This is kind of a game for us mindset. We probably would have missed all those opportunities and just not seen them for what they could have been.

[00:13:56] Jim: It was the hustle and the game that helped you see the opportunities you had in front of you. There was a fruit that was much deeper than the game and not having debt. You found some freedom. Talk a little bit more about that. Peace, joy, freedom, the deeper stuff that came with not having debt. 

[00:14:18] Jonathan: It will, when we were on that honeymoon, having that fight, money and our management, mismanagement of it was driving us apart.
It was a wedge between the two of us, but then through understanding how to handle our finances and make a plan and all that, it was instead of something coming between us, it was something that was actually pulling us closer together. It was now Amanda and Jonathan versus the debt, instead of the debt, you know, breaking us apart.
Yeah. Every payment we sent towards the debt or every, you know, budget we made that worked out. Was just like another boost to us and that we could do this together and it seems like it was gonna be a hard thing, but it looks like we're doing it and it just it really, I don't really pull this together.

[00:15:06] Amanda: It was single handedly the most unifying element of our first year of marriage.

[00:15:11] Jim: That's huge I mean single handedly the most unifying thing of our first year of marriage That's all the more striking given for how many people finances are the thing that are pulling them apart. Maybe not as dramatically as like the fight on the honeymoon. It's interesting. Like, gosh, I want to, I want to like testify to that because that class that you mentioned, the Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University, Kim and I at the time, and we were married, had a couple of kids.
We didn't have the same financial circumstances that you had. We didn't have. Any debt other than maybe, you know, like a relatively low interest rate mortgage, we were in good shape, but what we didn't have, like, maybe we didn't have the kind of monster debt pursuing us, but we didn't have a common language.
We didn't have the tools, you know, I mentioned I'd taken off. Oh, I took a finance course, you know, eight years ago, uh, and translating that into like, you know, money management for a little family. Just like we didn't have the tools and we didn't have the common language and when we developed like the common goal wasn't enough. We want to manage our money.
Well, you know, we want to be frugal We needed the common language and we needed the tools To actually do what we wanted and just having a common desire wasn't enough Talk a little bit about the tools like Because you mentioned like, okay, you know, selling stuff in our parents basement, sell the car.
What are some things that maybe if you don't have a second car, if you don't have somebody in the basement, like what are some of the tools and the principles people can use to start to kind of attack debt and build up their savings? 

[00:16:50] Jonathan: I think you touched on something really good. The desire just to manage your money well is not enough.
So, whether you are single. Or I think especially if you are married, you need to find the reason why you want to manage your money well, right? We wanted to get out of debt because we saw some sort of a future in front of us living our lives together of a family. And you know, the needs of that, the things we'd want to do, the way we would want to raise our family.
And if we were just having all these debt payments, like we wouldn't be able to do that. 

[00:17:27] Jim: Well, and you saw the negative effect on your relationship too. 

[00:17:30] Jonathan: Yeah. So, the first thing is to understand like a deeper why. And then that makes it really easy then to, you know, buy store brand groceries or to not go out.

[00:17:51] Amanda: Yeah, I think it was just really that deep conviction of we want to be free to say yes to whatever the Lord's going to ask us to say yes to and prioritize those things instead of just feeling like we are hamstrung by debt. That's not a life that we want. And I don't believe that that's what God's calling us to, um, little did we know in that first year of marriage that, you know, we were going to battle infertility and our family was going to be called to girth through adoption.
And we were going to need to come up with a hundred thousand dollars in a four-year times period to say yes to adopting our daughters. And if we hadn't done that, and if that fire hadn't been lit in us. Early on, we very much would not have been in a position where we would have been approved or able to prudently say yes to growing our family that, that often in that short of a time span.
Um, so God was working on us and I, I see that happening for others too. You know, he's fanning up for them some reason to, you know, get working on their finances, but that there's, it's so emotionally loaded that it can get. Bob down or put off or delayed or we'll get to it next year But if it's being poked in one spouse's heart or if you're single if it's being brought up in your heart This is something that the Lord is drawing your attention to probably for a reason He has something coming down the line That he wants you to be freed up and ready to say yes to and if you don't handle it now if you don't learn Kind of those skills right now.
You might not be able to give that. Yes, when he's gonna ask and one of the most practical ways that we encourage people to live virtue with money is through the skill of budgeting. Whether you are called to manage little in your life, or you are called to manage vast sums of wealth, it really all comes back down to the skill of budgeting.
And it can get a bad rap. You know, they say that when you mentioned the word budget, it triggers the same pain receptors in our brain as the word diet. So, people just think of it like a financial whip or like a punisher. I've never heard that before, but that's awesome. You know, like this is a punisher or it's a fun killer or this is, you know, the thing, the budget is what tells me that out of every dollar 99 cents needs to go to bills and one penny can go to fun or something I actually care about.
And that's just a misperception of it. And as Catholics, the way we teach it is that the budget is a way to receive what God is entrusting to you, discern with him what are the priorities that he's calling you to in your vocation at that given moment, and then allot the numbers to just protect those things.
And so, for some people, it's going to be getting out of debt for others. It's going to be saving for others. They're going to be trying to invest for others. It's going to be adoption for others. It's going to be, um, we're, we're really ramping up our generosity. It's going to be different as you advance down your journey of handling money intentionally, but the skill of budgeting is really that fundamental one that you learn early on and then it carries you through until the end.
There really isn't going to be a month where you shouldn't be budgeting because again, it's helping you live virtue with money. It's helping you stay accountable with it and not just coast with it. And it's really asking you and inviting you to. Be intentional with that resource that God's giving you. 

[00:21:01] Jim: I mean, I just want to take you back to a word you used.
Uh, maybe it was a phrase you said, you know, a budget helps you protect your priorities. You know, you've discerned these things. I feel like the Lord is calling us to this. We desire this. We value this. This is, this is our deeper why. And a budget helps you protect that. Man, I, I love that. Can you say more about that?
Because I mean, in a certain level, I think there's some assumptions that maybe need to be made explicit about actually our priorities need protecting our financial priorities need protecting. Can you say more? 

[00:21:37] Amanda: Yes. And you feel free to jump in here too, because I know you, you probably got something you want to share.
You know, it's just so easy to see a budget as an enemy instead of. That protector, that ally, the thing that's going to help you kind of like bumper guards when you're bowling, you know, if you're little and you're trying to learn how to bowl right away, it's pretty much going to go in the gutter and you're not going to hit any pins.
But if you've got the bumper guards up, you're hitting pins every time. And that is really exactly what the budget can do for us. You know, we don't have to be perfect. There's going to be some mess ups or slips or falling off the bandwagon every now and again, but at least you got some pins down. And it really did help you move the needle towards that.
that thing that God's calling you to. 

[00:22:17] Jonathan: Yeah. Um, I remember I was receiving a lot of formation as a missionary, um, and I'm forgetting the exact phrase right now, but about virtue, it helps you like in the moment of decision, there's a better word than that. But, um, like when, when it comes to the point of, of doing something or not or whatever it is, if you've built up virtue, well then, it's much more likely you're going to do the right thing.
You're going to do what you want to do instead of do the thing you don't want to do. The budget... 

[00:22:46] Jim: There's a freedom. 

[00:22:47] Jonathan: ...helps you do that. Yes, to live actual authentic freedom. And so, when I put in our budget, you know, uh, even just 10 to take out our daughters to ice cream that is helping me. be a better father, to say yes to the vocation that God has given me.
And if I don't do that, well, then that's, you know, all right, those opportunities might just slip away because, well, I will spend it on something else. Or I might think, well, I don't have enough to take them all out right now. Uh, and then I lose that chance to say yes to what God has put right in front of me.
So many things in our life, not everything, of course, uh, but so many things. Involve money, you know, the activities with our children or with our spouse, the way we want to spend time together. Going on a retreat. Yeah. If we don't prioritize them in the budget and our finances, there's a good chance they're just not going to get prioritized in our life.

[00:23:43] Jim: I love that because I think all of us have experienced budgets as the, Oh, time to stop. But it also, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm done now. But it also is permission. I mean, that was a huge epiphany for me that I realized a budget gave me permission to take my wife out to a nice dinner. It gave me permission to spend a certain amount for my child's birthday and to not feel like I was...
Violating my principles or being financially irresponsible in order to try and express my love or make a memory. I was like, no, I planned this and like, I've got a budget. There's a pile of cash here that I just have to spend on something pink for my daughter. I love it. Uh, yeah, it's so good. And again, for some of us, I was raised with a very very, very frugal family.
My dad was the second youngest of a family of 10 that grew up during the depression. Dust Bowl, Northeast Nebraska. I mean, there were times they did not know if they were going to have enough to eat and that made an impression on him. There were piles of canned goods in the basement just in case and there was a very, my parents didn't struggle.
financially because of an extreme frugality. But for me, I didn't know how to spend when the time came. And I felt this weird confliction about that, and a budget freed me to spend. When it was appropriate. 

[00:25:11] Jonathan: Yeah, I think people even coming from the other end maybe of that spectrum where they're used to just spending, spending, spending, they go, yeah, maybe this is time to, I should probably pay more attention to this.
You would think, it's a temptation to think, oh, well then, I guess I have to do the exact opposite. I need to never buy anything. And the budget gives you, yeah, that permission. You know, I have the money. to get this coffee right now. And I don't need to wonder if I'm drinking down the rent money or whatever.
Uh, you know, when that missionary comes and speaks after mass, you've got some money to put in the basket afterwards because you already know it's there. You're not wondering, Oh, I don't know. Do we have this or not? You know what you have available for all the different things. 

[00:25:54] Amanda: Yeah. So, for the natural savers, it does give them that confidence that they can spend and it's going to be okay.
And maybe even challenges them to spend, but for the spenders, it gives them some boundaries to, to happily spend within. So, they can kind of get that out of their system, if you will, in a way that doesn't destroy or tear down what it is they're trying to also build. Um, so wherever you fall in there, your financial personality, it's just really helpful.

[00:26:23] Jim: Yeah. I want to take things maybe to another level because in many ways, you know, a budget, I mean, we're, we're kind of talking about, there's a psychological, spiritual reality to these things that, you know, maybe at first glance may just seem natural or even worldly, depending on your perspective, but we can go a lot deeper here.
What needs to be different for those, those of us who follow Jesus, what needs to be different in how we manage our money? 
[00:26:55] Jonathan: Our lives should be totally transformed through our relationship with, with our Savior, right? The way we treat our spouse, the way we treat our children, the way we look at ourselves, all of this.
We go, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, this should probably be a little bit different. And then our investments and our spending and our levels of debt and everything else look exactly the same. So, something should be different. If we are truly living the life of a disciple, we need to understand money with the mind of God and his church.
To understand that, yes, we have money, we have, you know, private property, all of that, that is necessary for freedom. We also have a responsibility to everyone else. That these things, they're not ours, but they've been given to us, so they are. Uh, but they're also, we have the responsibility. to the common good.
So, we are part of the common good, of course. Uh, one of our main responsibilities with our possessions and our money is to take care of those under our charge, so our families, but there is a responsibility that we have to others in not just, Oh yeah, donating to charity or anything, but the way we interact in the marketplace.
It's harder and harder, uh, in the more globalized economy, but we should find ways to, you know, take care of the needs of our family without. Taking advantage of somebody else, you know, through some sort of, you know, terrible, you know, like sweatshop labor or just unjust wages and all sorts of things.
There's a lot out there in the money space that can Dehumanize folks, but there's also a lot through our money that can help lift people up and acknowledge that they too Are, are loved and known by God and are our brothers and sisters. 

[00:28:49] Jim: Thank you for saying that. I mean, you just, you kind of mentioned, I don't wanna go too far down the rabbit hole, but you kind of mentioned the sweatshop thing with only a little bit of awareness.
Most of us know that, like, hmm, some of the products, the way they're made, that's not, uh, sustainable. You know, maybe it's not, it's not good for the environment. Uh, it's not good for the people. There's like, well, On this whole kind of production chain. There's some people that are getting the short end of the stickier 'cause they don't have the opportunity.
But I think when it comes down to it, and maybe I'm just projecting my own thing, the thought of paying more for a product that we can feel confident is produced in an ethical way that actually provides the, just compensation for the farmer or the, you know, producer of whatever kind. Mm-hmm... We don't feel financially free to be able to say, no, I don't need the cheapest one.
I want the one that helps me live in accord with my values. Can you talk about that? Because I don't know if you guys address that in, in the book or not, but that's, I think that's hard for those of us who are like, I want to save the world. I don't want to take advantage of poor people that I, just cause I can't see them.
But I want to forget about it because the thought of paying a little bit more seems beyond my capacity. 

[00:30:06] Amanda: We do get asked this a lot, just of what level, you know, could I start shopping more locally for my groceries because I know that that's going to support my local economy, but it's also going to cost more and it might be more healthy for my family, but like, really, we should be buying something cheaper.
And so that that line is going to be different for everybody. But really, where I encourage people is, um, some things to look at. Thank you. You know, are you able to keep a roof over your head, the lights on, you know, clothes on your back, gas in your tank, your car tank so you can go to work, you know, can you, can you take care of the basics in addition to giving, we, we encourage people to try to give at least 10%.
If those two things are true and you still have some wiggle room, well, I think it's definitely something you could consider, you know, maybe not if you've got 500 extra dollars of wiggle room there and you're trying to get out of debt. Well, if this is important to you, maybe you do take a hundred of that dollars and you put it towards.
Shopping more ethically or investing in your local economy or supporting a Catholic owned business versus another one where you know, you're not quite sure what the conditions are and how they're paying people and you, you're still taking 400 to put towards paying off debt or to do whatever you're, you're trying to do, but you're still putting a little portion of that towards the things that do matter.
Um, and so it really is a balanced approach. Now, as you move down the financial, Hisco, accounts Milestones. We have 12 money milestones. We teach people at a certain point. This now can become a real focus for you because you've freed yourself up. You've you've gotten debt free. You have savings established that are that are good.
You have a plan for your future and you're setting aside in. Different ethical investments, et cetera. And now, really, whatever you want to find in your budget to go towards things like that, that's up to your discretion. And that's a really fun place to be, and it's a really freeing place to be, because wouldn't we all love if, if we had.
Complete autonomy to be able to shop wherever we would want to to support the things that we desire and so that's something to strive to get towards, but it's completely possible whether you have a small income or a high income, you can get there. 

[00:32:26] Jim: Yeah, that's really helpful. 

[00:32:27] Jonathan: Yeah, and while it's not a teaching document, I think what the.
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has put forward about just making public their approach to investing and how they choose to invest or to not invest in certain things is an interesting thing to look at, uh, certainly for investing, but also just for our everyday purchases. Where they talk about right that a good investment in their eyes, it's about, you know, the has the rate of return of the market.
Um, you know, it's a decent return. It avoids evil, of course, and then it does good. And then they go on to say, and even if. The return is less than the market average, poorer return financially, but what you're invested in does great good. It is a good investment. And so even if the, whatever it is that we're buying is more expensive, right?
It's a less of a financial benefit for us. The cost is higher there because of the good it does and or the evil it avoids. Um, it can be the better purchase. 

[00:33:38] Jim: That's huge. I mean, it's almost like, yeah, I'm getting seven and a half percent in the world and then I'm getting another three and a half percent that's going to my heavenly bank account, right?
I'm storing up trade. So, net, I'm really over 11 percent. I just, it's just, you know, I'm only at seven percent for the world. We're joking about it a little bit, but you're storing up treasure in heaven when we give alms, when we avoid evil. And Jesus has a lot to say about money and, and how we do that. And I think some people have maybe, maybe heard this before, but just, this is surprisingly frequent in his teachings.

[00:34:19] Jonathan: Something like a third of Jesus's parables concern money or possessions, uh, and then it's like a quarter of his overall spoken words. Uh, there's something there. And I think, or if you look at the beginning of Luke's gospel, um, the first thing that we hear John the Baptist talking about to people, you know, he's saying, Hey, the Messiah's coming.
You better get ready. And then they go, Okay, what do we do, John? He tells them three things, and they're all about money. They're about being fair, being happy with what you have, and not ripping off other people. That's it. The other stuff that he tells them about Jesus, all Luke gives us is, and he told them other good things about, about the Lord, or he shared the good news.
That's it. The only details are money, because it affects our relationships. It affects how we see, The Lord, like, you know, Jesus says, you know, like, Oh yeah, you gotta, you know, you gotta count the cost for discipleship. Uh, well, what kind of dope would start building a tower and not be able to finish it off?
Everybody's going to make fun of him for not budgeting. And if we don't understand budgeting, if we don't have the mind that the Lord does with that, right? If we don't have that everyday experience. Well, then we're going to miss some of that lesson that he has for us. Yeah. Wow. He pulls money because it is such a part of our everyday life, but the lesson is only going to come if we're seeing it the same way he does.

[00:35:38] Jim: There's an unspoken in, in what you just said there, he wants to be a part of our everyday life and part of it. He's like, uh, I'm, I know money is a part of your everyday life. I actually have some thoughts on that and, and I want to be a part of your everyday life. I want you to experience my joy and peace and freedom all the time.
Not just Sundays, not just in your prayer time, you know, everything but my checkbook. 

[00:36:04] Amanda: Yeah, we teach people to invite the Lord into their finances because I think for a long time, at least in the Catholic world, it's been, you know, I get my, I get money and I, I give to the church and I give to my diocese and.
That's the intersection of God and my money instead of Nope, he wants to be involved in all of it. Of course, he's involved in our, in our giving. And that's just an assumption, but he wants to be involved in all the other things as well. And he cares. And, you know, when we're in hard times or difficult moments with our finances.
He wants us to turn to him in those he's he has a lot to share a lot to say actually scripture again in so many places. So, there's the Saint Paul, I think it's in the book of Philippians where he talks about how I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me. If you look before that. He's talking about money.
He's talking about how he's lived; you know, he's learned to be content and to live when there's a lot and live when there's not a lot. That verse comes out of him discussing money with the early church. And so, this is an area that God wants to be completely immersed in with us. He's with us in the journey.
And so, in the hard times, or maybe in times when there's an abundance of money and we don't know what to do, and we need to discern what is God calling us to, are we supposed to invest in this? Are we supposed to start a business? He wants to be part of that. He wants to be right there with us in those decisions and in those discernments.
And I just don't know if we have in modern times as a church had the ability to bring him into those areas. Um, and so that's part of what we're trying to unpack is, you know, we have scripture and all of its depth, but we also have places in the catechism that talk about this. We have encyclicals, we have the lives of the saints and how they handled money and their unique junctures in time.
And what can we do to draw on all that wisdom to apply it today? And so that's part of what we're trying to do in. our Catholic financial formation. 

[00:38:09] Jim: Thank you for saying that because I noticed I really didn't read like the final, um, I love it, but you have a very long title to your book. I didn't, I didn't count all the words.
Long titles are in. You're like, how to attack debt, build savings and change the world through generosity. Oh, and then there's the subtitle, A Catholic Guide to Managing Your Money, what makes the approach that you all take and you just, I think, maybe shared a little bit of it, Amanda, but what makes your approach uniquely Catholic?
What does that add? 

[00:38:39] Jonathan: I'd say it's similar to the way in that Catholic worldview fully embraced. Changes the way that we live and that we, we see our lives. The purposes of education are now different. The structure and importance of the family are now different. Um, the way we relate with one another is now different.
And so, a Catholic worldview, when looking to money, Pulls, of course, on a lot of extra resources that other people aren't going to touch because they're not looking into, uh, the 2000 years of, of wisdom and thinking and praying that we are able to take advantage of as Catholics today, but also just the outlook and the view that we have on life.
If you actually think about it, it is radically different. I'd say even from our Protestant brothers and sisters, that we see things a little bit more deeply. There's a little bit more going on there under the surface, right? Uh, you know, education isn't just to, isn't just job training. And so, we should try to do it as cheaply as possible to have the best return on it.
But there's human formation, there's character formation, there's, you're forming this person. And we look to education for the, in light of the ultimate good of that individual, which is heaven. And when we look at that, well then there's a whole lot more there than getting them ready for their job. And so maybe there's a little bit more of an investment that's necessary.
Uh, we look to openness to life. That's going to have a different requirements on our finances and on our priorities of how we live. Yeah. And so, when we look into this, you know, the Catholic church is wonderful in that she'll teach us how to think. Not what to think on everything to truly discern something to form our conscience as well so that we can be are the big boys and the big girls making the decisions here, um, about the way which we are to live because our lives are all different, you know, we're all unique, uh, creations and then you got to, you know, infinitely different people together in a family now with kids.
Um, the way God calls us to live in this world is going to be There's some universal things that are true for all of us, and there's all the unique things that we need to discern and figure out, and having a Catholic approach to our money allows the way we handle our finances to fit those unique calls that the Lord puts on us.

[00:41:07] Jim: Right. It was a communal wisdom. We're part of this conversation that involves more than a few saints. And something 

[00:41:14] Amanda: I was going to speak to about that uniqueness is that part of what makes the work that we do different, um, than maybe. Our protestant brothers and sisters or even the secular world is oftentimes there's just one conveyor belt you kind of get on the path and I mean what's the end goal here to get a lot of money and maybe I'll be able to to give a lot and that's really it.
And that can be a little hollow and it's really just missing something in the Catholic worldview. We have people whose vocations are going to be to renounce all earthly goods and to be called to poverty. Why? What could there possibly be? 

[00:41:53] Jim: How does that fit? Which, which financial milestone is that? 

[00:41:56] Amanda: That doesn't really, yeah, exactly.
So how do we, how do we reconcile that? With kind of the, the average bear person who's going to be, you know, living in the world, but called to manage some resources, and then, you know, we also have some saints who were kings and queens, and they were, they were called to manage vast sums of wealth, and so the church makes room for every Possible economic scenario, knowing that our personal unique vocations, God's going to call us to holiness and money is going to be one little facet of that, and he's going to use it to draw us to him in our unique vocation, um, been that we need to interact with money in the way that he invites us to.
Whether that is called to take a vow of poverty, or be somewhere in the middle, or manage vast sums. Um, and just the Catholic perspective makes room for all of those things to be possible. And not only possible, but, you know, pursued, if that's really what God's calling you to. 

[00:42:54] Jim: Yeah, because I mean, I've benefited very much myself personally, you know, from many of the, the kind of tools and techniques of others you got while it when was not around, you know, when our family was kind of starting and developing our, our budgetary priorities and, and our kind of modes and methods.
But there is something unique about every person in every family and there's the, the kind of the global Catholic communal wisdom that's like, Oh, there's a, there's a context and a wisdom that actually rhymes a lot with my circumstances and I'm not just going to be put in this suburban money, money management box that like, yep, get out of debt and then save a bunch of money and try and give it to something good.
I want to give you guys an opportunity to share some stories because you've been, you've been walking with people. You know, you didn't just write a book, but there's, you have an online course, and you do a lot of public speaking. You help people find freedom and peace. I just want to give you a chance to share a couple of success stories.

[00:43:58] Amanda: Gosh, there's so many. We've now had, I think we've, we've had several thousand graduates who have gone through our Catholic money course. Um, just a few though that stand out. So, one story, this was a really early on person that we got to work with. Um, she was a single mom. Sole provider wasn't receiving any income from her, um, ex-spouse and she just didn't know what to do and she had all these student loans and wasn't and was drowning really and we were able to, you know, encourage her that she could do this and she was able to get that budget going and really it was just.
Kind of the, the little train that I think I can, I think I can, you know, just the next one, next right step. You know, if you come in thinking you're going to be able to tackle it all in a month or even a year in some circumstances that could overwhelm you. But she kept just doing the next right step, the next right step.
And she was able to become, um, 56, 000 in student loans. She was able to pay all of it off in three years, which, you know, while raising Kids as the sole income provider. That's that was a really big deal. And then, you know, she was able to establish her emergency savings and then buy her first home about two years after that.
So, within five years, you know, she went from like not knowing what her financial future would even be if there was even any future for her. You know, that's how discouraged she felt to. Not only is she completely providing for her family, but she's now, you know, established a home and a place of safety and a place of, of ability to really thrive in, in that next phase that God's calling her family to.
So, we check in with her still every now and again. And I love hearing how she's just progressing. Another story that stands out is, you know, just when, um, we've had weird economic realities over the last couple of years. That's the understatement of the century. Yep. That's great. And, um, just a number of people came to us, you know, either with their jobs were gone, they were, they were erased, and they didn't.
And, you know, the other spouse was a stay-at-home parent and they, they didn't know what to do. They started budgeting and taking, you know, what they had and being able to. It allowed them to really stretch it out. I think her husband was able to get a job after I think five months of hunting because they learned budgeting, they were able to stretch the resources they had out that entire time.
And if they hadn't budgeted, she said that she's confident they would have ran out after about six weeks. Wow. Yeah. And so just stories like that, um, are just really, really encouraging. To us, because we get to see how, you know, this is not just something that it wasn't just a one off, you know, we weren't, we were able to experience some wins, but this is now translated out to all different shapes and sizes of families and ages and circumstances.
We have another one of our graduates who is actually didn't think she was ever going to be able to retire. And enrolled in our course and started thinking about some things differently. Her and her husband started to dream and figure out maybe what could be next. And within two years, they decided they, they were going to move to Costa Rica and retire there because the cost of living is so much less and what they, what they had available wouldn't have gotten it done here in the U. S. But down there they can live like kings. 

[00:47:22] Jim: Wow. We're like, I don't know if we're ever going to retire or maybe we're going to move to Costa Rica. 

[00:47:28] Amanda: So, she went, yeah, from like total depression to like, wow, we're retired now, and we can make the numbers work and sometimes it just takes a little bit of creative backing into it from a different angle, but wow, we don't have to just do what.
We're told we're supposed to do. We can actually discern a different option. 

[00:47:46] Jim: Wow. That's awesome. I want to give you guys a chance here to talk about generosity. Right? I mean, that's like kind of the last, um, hope I guess that you throw out, right? Attacking debt, building savings, and changing the world through generosity.
That's a dream. Thank you. Who doesn't want to be generous, you know, everybody wants to be Ebeneezer Scrooge for like the last chapter, right, you know, of, you know, of, uh, Christmas Carol, right? Uh, but that kind of free, joyful, exuberant generosity. Seems beyond us. How do you get there? 

[00:48:23] Jonathan: The first step is just to start.
So for a lot of us, yeah, we're not going to be able to buy the, the whole, um, you know, the prized turkey in the window and all of that for, for a family, but maybe we could buy him a turkey or we could, you know, we could do something. We can have, you know, spend a couple bucks and have a stash of. Uh, you know, granola bars or hand warmers or whatever it is for when we run into somebody, you know, on the, at the intersection asking for help.
We can make the just monetary donations, you know, uh, whether or not we can hit 10%, you know, it's not a, it's not a law, um, that we're bound to or anything anymore. It's a good rule of thumb, but as long as we're generous. And over time, as maybe we get better at managing our money, as maybe we're making more money, we're able to increase the giving.
And so, I want people to be generous the whole way through. And some folks, you know, they, you might think, Oh, I can't really do much and maybe I won't do anything. We should do something. Uh, and then that, that's going to bring joy and right. You can give out of your, your time, your talent, your treasure, it's kind of cute, but it is true.
You know, we need to give out of all of the things that we've, we've been trusted with, including our money. You know, we can't only give money and then never volunteer or, you know, use the gifts we have to do something good. We can't just only give our time and then never ever consider giving money. Uh, it has to be all of them.
And so, begin by being generous. And then as you do that. I think your, your heart's going to love it more and more and in a similar way to that rush of paying off a debt, you go, your brain lights up, you, I want to do that again. And so, you're, you're more disciplined with your spending and then you have more money and then you can pay off another debt.
Well, you give, and that felt really good. I want to do that again. And then it's easier to say, well, you know what? I'm going to, yeah, I'll skip getting that at the store. Cause then I'll have more money to give. Yeah, I can build up that cycle in your brain too. So, you just, I think the first thing to do is just to get started.

[00:50:29] Jim: Yeah. I mean, just like, just give a little bit, give what you can and let it grow because it feels good. It does feel very, very good. How do people get started if they're like, okay, okay, I want to like, what was the Jim? What was that title again? How do I find the book? Um, how do you spell Texera? Um, if people.

[00:50:48] Amanda: My dad has it written in his wallet. 

[00:50:51] Jim: Yeah, I know. It's easy. 

[00:50:53] Jonathan: I'm still Jonathan T. My parents... 

[00:50:55] Jim: That's awesome. Just for the record. It's T E I X E I R A for those of you who want to like search, but I suggest maybe searching wallet win. Uh, or how to attack debt, build savings, and change the world through generosity.
Guys, how do people connect with you all? Wallet Win has a lot to offer. How can you help? 

[00:51:15] Jonathan: Well, you can find us at walletwin. com. You want to win with your money? W I N, walletwin. com. Uh, there you can find more information about our Catholic Money Academy, which is home to the Catholic Money Course that we were talking about a little bit earlier.
You can find a Catholic Guide to Budgeting on our website. Of course, a link to the book, all sorts of resources, our podcast, The Catholic Money Show. 

[00:51:39] Amanda: That comes out weekly. So, wherever you listen to podcasts, you can give us a follow. We also have, um, different resources like an emergency binder for families to get organized and we have kids classes.
So, if you want your kids to start learning about good stewardship, even from grade school or middle school or high school, we have curriculum for them. 

[00:51:58] Jim: That's awesome. Well, I mean, that speaks to, you know, those of us who are parents where we found a little bit like, Oh, this is a transformation in me. You know, mom and dad did great, but I didn't get this skill in school or from my parents or maybe I did, but I kind of picked up, you know, maybe a little hyper frugality along the way.
And I want my kids to be a little bit more free than, than, than we were. That's, that's fantastic. Okay, we'll, we'll link to that in the show notes while it when we'll link to the book, how to attack debt, build savings and change the world through generosity. Thank you guys. Thank you for what you're, thank you for what you're doing.
But we should probably mention this. You are also available for parish seminars too. Is that right? 

[00:52:42] Amanda: We are. Yes. So, we have been, yeah, different diocese and parishes have invited us down to give live in person workshops. We've done that in a number of places this year, but then also, um, some parishes have signed up to bring our course to be facilitated in their parish and they can gain access so that everybody in their entire parish could go through the class, whether it's in person or virtually.
Um, walletwin.com, there's going to be two tabs where they can find out more on how to either. Bring us to their parish or start the class in their parish. I mean, 

[00:53:15] Jim: I'll just make a plug for that. I, you know, a lot of the folks that listen to the equip cast there, they're, they're passionate about evangelization.
They're, they're passionate about renewing their parishes. And sometimes we scratch our heads, like, how do we get the people who aren't here to want to be here? And there's a lot of things, but. A lot of the people who aren't there, they have money, and they feel the pain of not knowing how to manage their money, especially, you know, it's like, Oh, the last couple of years have been a little odd.
And there's a lot of people who feel the pinch and a community of faith that is offering to help them in their pain point of managing their money and their finances. Man, that is a great first step for meeting people right where they feel the need. Of course, the Lord is going to be there too. And he has something to say about money and helping people connect the God of the universe who loves them actually also, right?
He's pretty good with a spreadsheet and he, and he loves you in the midst of, you know, try to develop a budget like, man, that's a really good foothold to developing a relationship to drawing people into your community of faith. So that course could be a great relational outreach moment, uh, to meet people right where they're at and to do some real good, real good for, for those who need it and who could benefit from, uh, the wisdom that you all and, and ultimately the church offers.
So, thank you. Thanks for what you guys are doing. Thanks for being here. You're welcome. Thank you for having us. All right, everybody, you know, somebody who needs to hear this. I don't know if I would like immediately share it out and say like, Hey, I noticed you, you know, have, uh, not been, uh, ever paying for coffee when we got together.
And I think you're kind of cheap and you should listen to this. I don't, you all need to figure out how to introduce this to your friends, but you know, somebody who needs to hear this conversation. This would be a good blessing too. So, when you get to your destination, when you're done walking the dog, when you're done with the drive, send this out to someone who needs it.
Thanks, everybody. Thanks for listening to the EquipCast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip.archomaha.org. God bless and see you next time.