[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. So today I sit down with Jodi Phillips and Michelle Zuhlke, and we take a deep dive on the faith formation step of building a clear path. Uh, what is say formation? How do you actually get it to work? What do you do when it doesn't seem to be working when people aren't growing and maturing and living as disciples?

It's a fantastic conversation. We talk about the ratio. How many missionary disciples do you need to really help form a disciple? Like, what do you do when it doesn't seem like people are interested in your faith formation? What's going on there? Yeah. How do you draw people to the experience? And what are the characteristics?

Most parishes are trying to do something for faith formation, but what really makes it work? Uh, Michelle shares her experience. Jodi dropped some wisdom, uh, as a coach of a dozen or so parishes here at the archdiocese. You're gonna love today's conversation, so take a listen. 

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

Alright, everybody, wel, welcome to the Equip Cast. Today's episode, we're gonna dive, we're gonna do a deep dive on faith formation. This is part of a special series on the steps of a clear path. So, a clear path is a parish framework designed to help people take their next steps as disciples of Jesus. It's your plan for making and maturing disciples.

Parishes that have a clear path know exactly how they connect with people, how they foster conversion, how they help people grow as disciples, and how they equip people as missionary disciples. Now, the concept is simple, but building the individual steps on a clear path doesn't happen overnight. And, well, even though it's simple, it's not always easy.

So, we're going to take a deep dive today into the faith formation step of a clear path. We have Miss Jodi Phillips and Mrs. Michelle Zuhlke. How are you ladies? 

[00:02:20] Jodi: I'm doing great today. How are you, Michelle? 

[00:02:23] Michelle: I'm doing great too. 

[00:02:23] Jim Jansen: Michelle, well, you're, you're, you're kind of our, our guest here, uh, Jodi and I work together. She's one of the coaches here for the parish support team, Michelle, we're going to spend a lot of our time talking about the way faith formation has shown up, how you and your family of parishes have built the faith formation step, but give us some context, right? All this has taken place in our, Our Catholic Family of Parishes, rural part of Northeast Nebraska here. Tell us a little bit about your parish family. 

[00:02:53] Michelle: Okay, so as of July 2023, we are now Our Catholic Family of Parishes, which is 12 church sites. And I just looked it up and the farthest away, so Brunswick, Nebraska, a little Brunswick, Nebraska, like a hundred peoples at St. Ignatius, all the way to Wynaut, it's like one hour and nine minutes from the furthest two sites.

[00:03:19] Jim Jansen: From east to west. Or west to east. 

[00:03:21] Michelle: Yes. 

[00:03:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. One pastor, one family, but 12 sites and what is it five canonical parishes that have now come together? Yes. Okay. What is it? What are the people like, Michelle? I mean, they're wonderful, but what else? 

[00:03:36] Michelle: Wonderful people, all small towns. So very rural, you know, farming community.

You know, like the school is kind of the hub of life and like, you know, the sports teams and those types of things. Everyone like communities gathering at sporting events, 

[00:03:55] Jim Jansen: Friday night football. 

[00:03:56] Michelle: Yep. Everyone knows each other. And even though like it's an hour, nine minutes away, I would still say like, even if you don't personally know people in the other towns, like you recognize their last name and you probably know at least one other person, yeah. In every town, if not many more. 

[00:04:14] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:04:14] Michelle: So, there's like a sense of even though we're different towns, like everyone kinda knows each other or at least has heard the name. 

[00:04:22] Jim Jansen: Got it. Okay. So, and maybe, right. I mean, depending on how many generations you and your family have been there, you might even be related.

[00:04:28] Michelle: Very likely. 

[00:04:30] Jim Jansen: Very likely. Yeah. It'd be related. Okay, so as we jump into this, I just want to give, like, kind of an acknowledgment and shout out here. The work that you all did in building the faith formation step on your clear path, you had a lot of that done before the term was cool, uh, before there was a book written.

In many ways, you helped kind of prove the concept. You know, your family of parishes is one of the kind of, you know, dozen or so parishes that kind of came together to make up this, this story. You know, it's a combination of a bunch of different parishes around the country and the world, and you all are one of them.

Let's jump right in. What do you guys do for Faith Formation? 

[00:05:13] Michelle: Well, it all kind of started with a priest encouraging us to start small groups. And so that's kind of the, like, you know, before all this talk was happening, where I remember it, the most like grassroots level was just a number of other stay at home moms like myself who Love Jesus and we're desiring more gathered together and we started going through the CCO Catholic Christian outreach series of Bible studies, which I'd say also like is encountering Jesus as well and then evangelizing, but there is also that middle part, the faith formation.

Small groups have been a pretty significant part of that faith formation process and of growing together, uh, in our, our parish family. 

[00:06:05] Jim Jansen: And timeline, this is like seven plus years, right? I mean, it's been, it's been for a while. 

[00:06:10] Michelle: Yes. Yes. That's been, yeah, for quite a while, which that then turned into, you know, people from that original group branching out and doing the same thing and other small groups and continuing to grow that.

And like, that's still happening today. People from that original group, like still branching out and like leading others and taking them through all of this. 

[00:06:31] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It's continuing to grow and multiply. 

[00:06:33] Michelle: Yes. Yes. And we've also just been blessed. Like a lot of people in our community have been through the mentorship program like we've heavily utilized that I feel like in our clear path of a lot of them gone through the mentorship program. So, they understand the vision. 

[00:06:49] Jim Jansen: What's the mentorship program for those listening who don't know? Give a thumbnail sketch. 

[00:06:53] Michelle: Okay. So, the archdiocese of Omaha has a mentorship program. Basically, to equip lay leaders to evangelize. 

[00:07:01] Jim Jansen: So those folks have really been able to take an active lead and helping run these small groups, gather people together. I think you're going to talk about retreats and other things like that. They've been able to take leadership roles and helping to make these things happen. 

[00:07:16] Michelle: Absolutely. And then just also having a community of other people who speak the language and understand the mission has been really helpful too. as we move forward.

[00:07:27] Jim Jansen: Okay, so it's probably helpful here, just kind of level setting, to just give a quick kind of definition of what faith formation is, right? In the context of a clear path, uh, this would be a ministry that helps equip disciples as they grow in the Christian life. Small groups are a big part of it. You've talked about that things that teach people how to pray, but really more than just how to pray or you like the knowledge of certain aspects of the Catholic faith, they're really providing formation.

And we'll let Jodi jump in later and give us a little distinction. Like what do we mean by formation? This step, the clear path tends to meet people. I mean, it can meet people from a broad spectrum on their faith journey, but it's at its best. if people are actually disciples, right? Meaning like they've made a decision to follow Jesus in faith, and they actually want to know, what did he say?

What did he teach us about living? Jody, what would you, what would you add to that? Distinctions, you know, important kind of caveats, because I think this is tricky. We were talking a little bit before we turned on the microphone. In most parishes, everybody has something for faith formation. I mean, that's not a new word, it's not a new concept.

But if we're honest, it's not often bearing the fruit that we really want. What, what are some maybe important distinctions that you would offer between the type of faith formation we're talking about here and, uh, maybe what we're typically experiencing? 

[00:09:00] Jodi: Honestly, we are in this like golden age of the church where there's a million resources. Um, so if you want to study All of the click of a button and most of it's free, right? So, if you want to learn from the greatest doctors of the church, well, you can find an app for that and if you want to Learn how to pray. Or if you want to learn about the most niche thing in scripture, you know, it's all there on a different app or a different website or a different video series from father Mike Schmitz, you know, so we can learn about just about anything and our parishes can run different programs that give us an opportunity to do the timeline of the Bible in a year and all of these different opportunities.

And I think all of those things that we learn can be. Fascinating, right? It's the same thing that I experienced when my niece, just for an example, my niece, a couple weeks ago in the car, she was like, Aunt Jojo are axolotls endangered? And I was like, I don't even know what an axolotl is. Do you know how much I have learned about axolotls in the last two weeks?

They're the best, they're the cutest pink salamanders I've ever heard of. And the reason I say that, yeah, a whole other story about that. But I'm fascinated by them, and I can learn a whole lot about them, but what I can never do is have a relationship with a pink axolotl. Like, it's not going to change who I am.

[00:10:30] Jim Jansen: Are they endangered rainforest animals? That's why you can't have a relationship with them. 

[00:10:33] Jodi: That's a big part of it. But they're also salamanders. You know, they're a fascinating topic for a moment. And I find them adorable and cute, but they don't change anything about who I am as a, as a human being and my person.

So, this is the distinction you, you joked about this, right? That I'm going to talk about this distinction between education and formation is it's one thing to be fascinated by. Did you know that when Moses crossed the Red Sea, that this was happening, right? Like. That is so cool. And as someone who has a master's in theology and loved studying Old Testament scripture, I can, I can get down with you any day in those topics.

But it's another thing to say like, Oh, that's what that meant. And here's what this means about God's love for me and who I am as a person. So, when we talk about formation, it has to do with who I am, who the Lord created me to be and how he's asking me to walk with him. 

[00:11:29] Jim Jansen: That's huge. And you're kind of on a roll here, so I just want to let you keep going. So, you're saying there is yes, a content, there's stuff that you learn. But more than that, there's a person that you meet who doesn't just make you smarter, but actually teaches you how to live. 

[00:11:47] Jodi: Yep. Yep. And because I, because I have a relationship with him, I want to know a lot about him, right?

[00:11:52] Jim Jansen: That's, that's the assumption. I actually want to know, which is if people didn't catch that, maybe in the definition, yeah. Oftentimes, you know, it's like, okay, this is formation that is for disciples. I think particularly with, with young people, when we're, when we're in, you know, processes where we're just automatically, well, you're a second grader now, or you're an eighth grader now, or, you know, insert age here, we begin to teach them stuff that they have no emotional connection to, that they have no interest in because they're not yet disciples.

Or if they are, it's been quite a while since they've had a meaningful encounter with the person. And so, their interest level is really low. And that's an awful thing. That's an awful position to be in as a one, as a student to try and receive information and formation when you couldn't care less. And it's an awful place to be in as a teacher to try and give information and formation to people who just aren't interested, especially when you love the topic and the person you're trying to communicate.

So just quickly then, Jody, we've got these kind of like two parts of it, the content, I want to give you a chance to like, okay, what is the content and then how do you personalize it, so it becomes Something that is relevant. Uh, it's part of the relationship. Like, how do you keep those two things in tension?

[00:13:22] Jodi: Well, the content can be really, there's a lot. It's the whole catechism, right? 

[00:13:27] Jim Jansen: We're, we're Catholic. There's a lot. Yeah. No, it's true. Right? 

[00:13:32] Jodi: But if we're really talking about basically a systematic catechesis, right? That's a big word, catechesis means to echo down the faith, right? So, we start with the creed, right?

So, what does the creed mean? So there, there's this systematic way of talking about the faith and, and all of the things that we need to know about who God is. And the church has really well laid that out. And like I said, it's the catechism. It starts with. Who God is and who he created us to be, how do we worship him, how do we live a moral life and how do we have, how do we pray?

Right? So those are the four pillars of the catechism. So that's, that's the basic content of catechesis. Basically, it's the heart and habits of a missionary disciple though. 

[00:14:17] Jim Jansen: Well, and you could maybe, I mean, since we're referencing the catechism, you could shorthand it by saying, okay, the catechism is like, right, what is, what is it that we believe pillar one, you know, pillar two, how does it show up in our worship, you know, uh, in terms of like our, the liturgy and sacraments, pillar three, how does it show up in the way we live in the moral life? And then pillar four, how does it show up in our prayer? 

[00:14:45] Jodi: Yeah. How does it show up? They also become the habits of the way that we live our life. So, this is the content is not just, again, it's not just something that we're talking about. It's something that we're doing, right? Yeah. So, you, I think you're the second part of your question there, Jim was like, how we actually go about. Teaching it. Was that correct? 

[00:15:06] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, yeah. More than just the information. Like, how do you make it relevant? How do you make it a vehicle where you're actually connecting with Jesus, the person kind of behind all the stuff? 

[00:15:20] Jodi: Yeah. Right. So again, it's all within this context of, I am a disciple who has dropped my nets to follow Jesus and living out of this relationship.

But I think a lot of it happens within the context also of the relationship of the church. So. Michelle talked a lot about the different ways that they went about forming small groups. Again, we're in this golden age of the church. You can pick really any curriculum you want, and I can list off some that we think are really good, but if I'm, if I'm reading something on my own and I, and I'm just kind of struck by an idea, but I don't have any way of putting it into practice or kind of talking through it or wrestling through it with someone else, it might just be stuck as an idea.

But if I'm working out these ideas first with the Lord. Right. In prayer and conversation with the Lord. Okay. What does it really mean to love my neighbor? Right? So, I'm, I'm in, in this section and I'm trying to understand what does it really mean to love my neighbor? First, I want to have a conversation with the Lord about it, but then hopefully I have a group of people around me and we're studying and we're talking about these ideas together who they're, they're encouraging me and they're questioning me and they're asking me questions and I'm learning from them.

And together we're kind of in fear and trembling, working out our faith. Right? In a very active way. And this is formative. This is that process of discipleship. It's where the church comes together to really be formed together. 

[00:16:45] Jim Jansen: So Michelle, I mean, you guys have really brought this to life where, I mean, there are people who, and I know you're going to share some stories where like their, their lives are being profoundly changed by the right, like the teachings of Jesus, the way he teaches us to live.

And it's partially because the way you did. Your faith formation, like what did you guys actually do? Like what happens in your faith formation? 

[00:17:10] Michelle: Yeah, when Jodi was talking, I was like fist pumping because there's so much I want to say. And the one thing I really want to say is this has to happen in community.

[00:17:18] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:17:18] Michelle: And I don't just mean community, like, show up and you learn about confession. And as you said confession can be really exciting to learn about like this is so awesome but to actually go to confession is a whole nother topic and it's really... 

[00:17:33] Jim Jansen: Totally. 

[00:17:34] Michelle: ...really tempting. Like we gather as a group we do the lesson on confession to be like, okay Everybody your challenge for the week is to all go to confession meet back next week.

See how it went Like, I guarantee you, if it's not a common practice in those people's lives, if it's new, they will not go. They absolutely will not go. So, what community actually has to look like at this step is doing this together, living this life together. You actually, when you gather, you are praying lectio.

You're not only teaching lectio or ARRR wrap, how to pray. You are praying together with this method consistently to learn. You're not only learning about confession. You do it together, which is what we did. In a couple of our Bible studies and the same thing happens every time, like, we're like, we're all going to go to confession together.

And we show up and every time people say, I almost didn't come, and I drove by, and I saw that this person was there. So, I said, I better do it too. And they all came in and they're all like, we're so glad we went, but we almost didn't do it. Even when there is that accountability. 

[00:18:39] Jim Jansen: And if it hadn't been a communal thing, if there hadn't been, oh, I don't know, a healthy peer pressure, let's say, yes, there's no way, no, no way that the people would have done it.

[00:18:49] Michelle: I see the same effect. We have these women's retreats. We call them bloom retreats or just, just like a day of recollection, just a day. And it's basically just, we pray together. So, it's shared prayer. There's a holy hour and confession and maybe a little teaching, a little fun. I consistently hear over and over that confession and adoration were the highlights of the day and just a gratitude for the opportunity to go to confession.

And you can almost see it happening. Like you see one person go and then another person feels confidence like this ripple effect of us all being together. This is a normal thing that we do as Christians. We do these things together. Yeah. 

[00:19:27] Jim Jansen: Well, and because we're not just teaching information, we are right. We're teaching a way to live. I mean, I'm a big John Mark Comer fan. You know, those of you, I've probably like, I don't know, a dozen or more times quoted from or recommended the ruthless elimination of hurry. Uh, but one of the big points that he makes in that book, uh, John Mark Comer is that Jesus isn't just a teacher.

He doesn't just give us information, lifesaving as it is, but he actually shows us how to live. And I think the application for that, for the faith formation step is, we are not just giving people information, we're actually showing them how to live. We're showing them how to pray. We're showing them how to live liturgically.

We're showing them how to like, begin to see their neighbor anew, and treat them with the love. That is the consequence of Jesus's teaching, but frankly, isn't, you know, isn't just always the most intuitive thing in the world. We're actually like showing people how to live as a disciple. Again, not perfectly, but it's that community, it's that modeling, mentorship, the variety of ways you can label it.

That's like an essential component of the way you all have done faith formation. And it's actually been really fruitful. Michelle, I want to give you a chance maybe to just kind of like, Uh, bragging is not the right word, glorify the Lord with just a couple of stories of what has happened to individuals, uh, as they've experienced this type of faith formation.

[00:21:05] Michelle: Well, I'll go back to just the idea of community. One of my best friends who I've been blessed to walk with, when we started that first initial Bible study, she was desiring to grow in her faith, you know, had already had a conversion, but it was really the community of authentic friendships that she hadn't had in the past, and then the vulnerable sharing.

Specifically in prayer, shared prayer together. And then that same thing, you know, like this person had said at one point in her life, she would never be Catholic. So then becoming a convert, growing in faith, like confession was still really hard, even though she was convicted of it. So doing confession together.

[00:21:44] Jim Jansen: She was the only, she's the only one. It's, it's easy for all the rest of us. 

[00:21:50] Michelle: But yeah, do it going to confession as a group, uh, it was really powerful. And then just that going out two by two. I think is what helped like with the next step of just knowing we were already doing this together and living it together.

And so then being able to help form others the way that we've been formed because it was so effective, but that you didn't just have to go do it alone, that you could do it together has been really beautiful. We've been blessed to have focused missionaries in our parish. So, like Jimmy and Melissa Chang, they live in Bow Valley, but they're focused missionaries living in the parish context.

So, Jimmy is like amazing mastermind of going and befriending everyone and sharing Jesus with them. And has this awesome chart that he shows me of all the people that he's discipling and but he's always constantly talking about then that next step of, uh, equipping them to go out and do the same thing, but in art.

[00:22:53] Jim Jansen: And they really lean into the small groups, right? I mean, a lot of people know focus from the college context, but Jimmy is a I mean, he's a full time focused missionary, but serving your family of parishes and doing the thing, mentoring people, leading small groups, and then teaching other people how to do the same thing. 

[00:23:11] Michelle: Yes. Just starting small groups, teaching them how to pray, equipping them. With the life of the church and then sending them out as well. So that's been pretty awesome Um, we've recently started something called we're calling it acts So it's adoration confession teaching and social And we're doing that once a month and inviting people to come For any part of it really they can come and do the adoration confession, but then there's a little teaching and then just social and Another way to just build up the disciples in our parish, but then also encouraging them to even just bring someone who's not a disciple yet to just the social part and giving them the opportunity to actually live out what we're kind of asking them to do.

[00:23:53] Jim Jansen: That's nice. Jody, I want to give you a chance, like we've been talking about a number of different expressions, for lack of a better word, forms that faith formation can take, you know, Michelle's mentioned small groups, she's mentioned retreats, or these kind of like days of recollection, reflection, kind of drawing people in, how else does faith formation tend to show up? Like what are some of the, what are some of the options? 

[00:24:18] Jodi: Yeah, I think what we've seen in our parishes that have really been leaning into this area again, Jim, you mentioned this really at the top of this episode that there's a lot of our parishes already doing some things and faith formation, but one of the things.

One of the things that they, they weren't seeing was people moving on to the next step, right? So, people were learning all sorts of things, and they were coming again to different Bible studies again and again and again, but they hadn't quite made it. The step of wanting to invite other people into a relationship with Jesus, right?

So, for, for our faith formation efforts to really be vibrant and fruitful, we should regularly be seeing people turning outwards with their faith, right? It's not just for me to learn, but for others. 

[00:25:07] Jim Jansen: I want you to say that again, because that's like, that is huge. And I don't want people listening if they're like distracted driving or walking their dog to miss this because for many I'm just gonna like you can correct it if you think I'm exaggerating, but I think for many of our parish leaders providing faith formation can start to feel like a burden and it can start to feel like we've created this like consumeristic expectation in our people to like, what's the next thing?

What's the next class? What's the next course? And all of a sudden, we've become this Like again, not in a bad way, but like we're meeting the demands for give me the next cool thing to learn about, which could be and should be beautiful, except for if people never grow to a place where they want to share, where they want to help draw others in there's something missing.

[00:26:09] Jodi: Yeah, and you know, something I was thinking about earlier to just to. Highlight that just for a moment, you know, the parish's responsibility in forming people and discipleship. Again, not everyone needs a master's level degree in theology, and some people are really called to that, and some people will go on and study more.

But what the parish is responsible for is helping people learn how to live as a disciple. And so, what do they need to learn to live as a disciple? It's a lot of the things Michelle's been talking about. They need to learn how to go to confession, right? And I, I have, uh, someone in my small group who. Went through RCIA three times before he converted, he's been Catholic for 25 years, and he recently said, you know, I'm having a hard time with this.

I'm not sure anyone ever really told me how to go to confession, right? And so, we're going to go into that confessional and we're going to figure it out. That's what we're going to do. And so, these are, these are the things that people haven't really been taught. They've been taught a lot of stuff, but they haven't actually been learned how to, they haven't actually learned how to live it.

And so, but, but the next point is like, even if they've learned how to live it, well, if I've learned how to live the Christian faith, what is part of the Christian faith that I'm called to live? It's how to share my faith. That's actually a requirement, a mandate of my faith. So, if I'm learning to live it, I'm also learning to share it.

So, if I have gone to, to the formation that my parish has offered me and I'm growing in the ways that the church is asking me to grow, then I should naturally be turning to my neighbor. Right. And I should be sharing the gospel with them. 

[00:27:51] Jim Jansen: Well, and I love, again, in case anybody's, uh, huh, like me, and, and maybe like half listening while, while doing yard work, you've just kind of, I think very fairly and truly equated love of neighbor, which is like, okay, Jesus is like, Hey, Love of God, love of neighbor.

Those are the two great commandments. That's what I'm asking. You know, everything in some ways can be put in one of those two categories and sharing your faith, evangelization, like that's love of neighbor in its most basic form. And I think you're, you're making the case. It's like, you know what?

If we're not teaching people love of neighbor that eventually overflows into a sharing of their faith, we've missed something. 

[00:28:38] Jodi: To that point, the question you actually asked me with Howard Parrish is responding to this, right? Like, what are they doing? And, and mostly what we're seeing is it's not actually that the content is shifting that much.

They're using a lot of materials that have existed, but it's the way they're going about it, right? It's the community. So, they might be doing a class on prayer or the scripture, but they're inviting people to take the next step. So, we've got some parishes that are doing kind of a discipleship one on one course, right?

Here's the heart and habits of a disciple. Here's how you live this way of life, but within community, and there's people kind of walking with them. We've got parishes that are doing something out of Franciscan from Steubenville, they're discipleship quads, which is a year long process of four people who are, again, growing in just the habits of discipleship.

They have it broken up into seven habits. And they say like, here's the things we're going to work on. And they kind of actually kind of like rate themselves over the course of the year, how are they growing and these different habits, some parishes will use form. org, but not just as, and here's your free subscription.

Look at us taking care of faith formation, but we did it. Here's the small group. That's kind of going through. Cause they've got some really great curriculum as does Ascension press. Like here is some, just again, those basic habits and skills of discipleship. You can do that with a book club. I know a lot of people lean into other things, but I would say like those, those kind of more systematic ways of doing it would be leaning really into the classes, um, or Franciscans discipleships quads or something.

I know, Michelle, you actually mentioned was like the CCO discovery series. I don't know if you want to speak into that at all. 

[00:30:33] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Talk more about that, Michelle. I think that'd be helpful because some people. Uh, some people might know what that is, but that that's a content that actually kind of spans a fair amount of the spectrum of the type of things you would want to communicate.

[00:30:48] Michelle: Yeah. So, I want to say, are there like seven in that series? There's quite a few studies. 

[00:30:54] Jim Jansen: That's a good question. I think there are. Yeah. 

[00:30:56] Michelle: Yeah. But it kind of spans like the full spectrum starting like the very first one is encounter. And it's very much presenting the gospel, what Jesus has done for you.

There's, there's a place where they can choose to accept Jesus as Lord of their life. I mean, it's very much just like encountering the Lord, that he loves you, the Kerygma, the main gospel message. And then it moves forward through, you know, prayer. If people want to continue after they've kind of made that decision, like, yes, I would, I want to be a disciple.

I want to live for Jesus. Then it's forming them and, uh, you know, the ways of a disciple. And then slowly moving towards convicting them of ultimately disciples make other disciples and like what that looks like and how that looks like, like you said, the love of neighbor, but it's a very accessible study.

I would say all of those studies and a very natural progression. To help people walk the way of a disciple. 

[00:31:51] Jim Jansen: I mean, it seems like I, I'll invite both of you to kind of jump in on this, but we've been talking about this, but if we were to list out some characteristics, there's okay. Yes. Content. Yeah. What, what did Jesus teach?

What does the church teach? But there's often food. There's often like a small group dynamic where people can have conversation and process it. What else? What are some of the kind of things, regardless of the form, what are other some characteristics that tend to show up in effective faith formation? 

[00:32:24] Michelle: I think personal invitation, like people really prayerfully considering who they want to invite and praying for them before they even make that invite.

And striking up a relationship with these people and then inviting them and not just Like the bulletin is wonderful and should be utilized but more than that Like people are much more likely to come if it's hey Like I’ve been thinking of you. Would you come with me? Like I’ll pick you up you can sit at my table all those things and then outside of the meeting If it is a type of meeting like an ongoing relationship where there's a checking in I find that, like, this is a little bit different, but I think Father Mike Schmitz is a wonderful tool, like catechism in the ear, Bible in the ear, and I have found that beautiful.

[00:33:08] Jim Jansen: You're not the only one to like it. 

[00:33:11] Michelle: But it can't just be like, hey, go listen to this. It's like, we're gonna, like, chat about this all week long. Like, they can do that on their own time because I can't articulate it like he can, clearly. And so that takes pressure off me, but then there's this ongoing conversation outside of the learning time.

[00:33:29] Jim Jansen: Well, right. But if I can kind of build off what you're saying, although Father Mike has a special gift for articulating it, he can't model it the way you can, right? From one mother to another mother living in Northeast Nebraska, you're like, here's how I make time for prayer. Here's how I, you know, get to know my neighbors when everything else in my life could keep me busy enough that I would never actually meet them or connect.

And you actually get to model what it means to live as a disciple. And Father Mike does a good job for that. for the people in his life day in and day out, but he can't do it for the other moms in Northeast Nebraska the way you can. 

[00:34:10] Michelle: You're so right. And that's a gift of right now with, with the mentorship program. Um, I am mentoring two ladies going through it and it's been a gift that they're both ladies I'm in relationship with one being my sister-in-law, one, a dear friend that I actually do youth ministry with. So not only are we gathering once a month for shared prayer and encouragement. And talking about the homework, are we actually doing the homework, living this out?

But I also see them the one every week when my daughters go to dance, like we're checking in, we're talking about how this is going. And then the other one, like we're doing youth ministry together. So, we're seeing each other every Wednesday night. And we're checking in and we're trying to live this out together as well. So that shared life piece is really huge. 

[00:34:52] Jim Jansen: All right, ladies, I'm going to throw you a curveball here because we've been talking about relationship mentoring, you know, to use other language, there's, there's some sort of missionary disciples, someone who's a little bit, a few steps ahead in the journey, who's helping disciples grow.

We've talked about small groups. I'm going to throw you a kind of a hard question here. I'm starting to hear kind of a, because I know some of these stories, I've been able to hear some of these, I'm starting to hear kind of a ratio in my head that like for there, there are a number of disciples, let's say, that want to learn about Jesus.

What was he like? What did he teach? What's he asking of me? They want to learn how to live as a disciple of Jesus. There is certainly some sort of missionary disciple involved helping them. What's the ratio? Again, no, no right answer here, but I think, let's just be honest. Typically, so I'm going to say typically it seems like there's one missionary disciple.

Maybe it's the catechist. Maybe it's the, yeah, maybe it's the priest. And he's teaching a class with 50 plus people. Okay. 50 to one is not, is not the right ratio. What's the, we're not dogma here, but like, what's the right ratio here to really make faith formation work? Michelle, you go first. Oh wait. Okay.

Oh no. Jody's ready to roll. Jody, what would you say? I'm like, no, too late. You spoke first. 

[00:36:25] Jodi: Um, I mean, you can, this is obviously not dogmatic for sure. I think you can make a small group run. With six to eight people, right? You can have real peer to peer mentorship happening. I think any larger than that, there's some rule, right?

When you're at a table and it crosses the like six-person mark, people break off and decide conversations. 

[00:36:48] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It's a social experiment that always works. 

[00:36:51] Jodi: Yeah. So, like, that's the rule that should be in play in your small groups. Like if it gets larger than that, you're not going to be able to have good dialogue and conversation.

But I think when we're really talking about discipleship formation, not just I gather in community with this group, but I'm actually helping them to, to be formed as disciples. I, I think it would be hard to do that with more than three to four people at a time. 

[00:37:15] Jim Jansen: Wow. So, you're saying three to one, four, four to one.

[00:37:18] Jodi: Not impossible, but I think to, to, to be able to say, cause the, the one characteristic you were kind of listing off the characteristics, but I think one that's really important is the discipleship formation is practical. And 

[00:37:32] Jim Jansen: it's hard to do that with, uh, sure, maybe you can six to eight, but it's a little easier with three to four. And wow. Okay. What would you say, Michelle? 

[00:37:42] Michelle: I think four is such a beautiful number. I consistently see groups of four showing up being really effective. 

[00:37:51] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:37:52] Michelle: And this is also kind of wild. But as I was thinking about it, I sometimes think like three missionary disciples to one disciple. 

[00:38:03] Jim Jansen: Oh, I love it. No, no, no. But like, yeah. Say, say more. I mean, you're kind of flipping the question on its head, but yeah, say more about that. 

[00:38:10] Michelle: Like not always. But. Like really effective times where someone has grown and become convicted. It might not all be at the same group, but I know in their life, there are like three different people that are living as missionary disciples that are feeding them and are there in different contexts.

And we all kind of know each other, like I said, because of this small-town dynamic. So, we know each other, but yeah, I just see it like, and it doesn't always happen. Like I said, they're not like all in the same small group, but they might be in a small group. But I also know two other people. that are also feeding them too.

[00:38:44] Jim Jansen: Right. And they're not all engaged in the same way at the same time in the same place. Any of us, I mean, if we look back at our story and we're like, we, we've seen, as we've seen ourselves grow, there were multiple people that the Lord was using to help, help us along the journey. So, I just, I just have to say, like, I wasn't planning on going here in the conversation, but this is radical and this is way, way different than our typical experience of faith formation, which, frankly, I mean, Jody, you talked about what a treasure.

We have right now. We tend to rely on mass communication as though, which is fine. The content is amazing. Father Mike, everything on form. org, you know, I mean, it's like, it's great stuff, but we actually, maybe you can benefit from something that has been mass produced, but you actually can't mass produce disciples.

[00:39:43] Michelle: Well, it's just like you said before, like it's one thing to hear Father Mike say you should go to confession, but it's another thing to hear. My friend tell the story of how she didn't want to go and she ended up going and was the only one who got through the line to get to the confessional before it closed and she like hated it the whole time she was saying it in line but it was the most beautiful thing that's ever happened to her like people who actually know her and relate to her that story is really effective.

[00:40:11] Jim Jansen: Okay, ladies, I love where the conversations go in here. So, let's just like, let's take it one, one layer deeper here. I want to talk about some of the harder stuff here because again, some of the other steps of the clear path evangelization formation, which is a whole nother thing. Like how do we actually help people who now know they're supposed to share their faith, figure out how to do it.

There's not a ton of parishes that are doing that, at least comparatively to faith formation. It's that's less common. And so, most people haven't experienced their evangelization formation breaking because they haven't really had a chance to try it yet. Everybody has experienced their faith formation breaking.

So, I'm just going to throw out a couple common struggles here with faith formation and let you guys kind of diagnose what's going on and suggest a remedy. So, challenge number one, yeah, our faith formation kind of works, but it's always the same people attending. What would you say? 

[00:41:11] Jodi: I was going to let Michelle go first.

[00:41:15] Michelle: I think of a couple things. One, I think maybe the people who keep attending, A, have not yet been introduced to the idea of being missionary disciples. So, it could start there, like maybe that hasn't been introduced to them. So, the faith formation needs to end a little bit and move towards like convicting them and being missionary disciples one or two, perhaps the people that keep showing up are real comfy and just intellectual formation, but don't want to actually allow Jesus into their life.

It could be it. And so, it might be like actually moving the other way of like, maybe we need to take a step back. Do these people actually know how to pray? Have they actually encountered the Lord? Because when there is that real encounter, it becomes a lot less difficult. Like they just naturally are going to want to share or be interested in sharing their faith with others.

So, I think it's looking like, have we not? Taking them to the next level, or are we not even to faith formation yet? We need to go backwards. 

[00:42:22] Jim Jansen: Wow. Yeah. I mean, you're kind of diagnosing it. It's like, okay, there's these characteristics, you know, it's for a disciple we're going to like, wait, is that actually true?

You know, it's, you know, it's like, we have to cover all of the spectrum prayer, you know, the sacramental life, the moral life, and we're going to like, wait, did we miss one of those? Did we, you know, did we actually teach them how to pray? So, you're like, kind of like. We've got this kind of self-examination if, if you will, to say, Hmm, if it's always the same people coming and they're not growing and progressing, what have we missed?

I love it. Okay. Jody, I'm going to give you a hard, hard one here. This is, this was just for you. Okay. You got, you got this. You totally got this. What do you do when you can't even get anyone to come like, like you've got a faith formation event and it's good stuff. It's great content and people just aren't interested. What might be going on there? 

[00:43:21] Jodi: The first thing I would ask is, is it actually great content for everyone? 

[00:43:25] Jim Jansen: Ooh, say more. 

[00:43:27] Jodi: I'll just speak to the obvious that I'm really nerdy. I think we've talked about this on this, on the equip cast before. I think this is well known to probably 98 percent of the listeners.

[00:43:38] Jim Jansen: Well, now it is. 

[00:43:39] Jodi: Yeah. So, the things that I find interesting and intriguing and the great content might not actually be what most of the people in my parish are interested in. So that's the first, the first question. And so, I, I found like. Doing a survey of what they need to learn can be really helpful but recognizing what they're going to tell you may not be what you want to teach, you know, a parish recently just did this and what they got back for, I think, for actually religious education.

They asked the parents, what do you need from us for any parish that has done this? Generally, what they get is we would like some more parenting tips, you know. And that might feel like a really disappointing answer at first to a parish that's like, Oh, but we want to help you grow in your faith, right?

But how do you help people parent better by helping them to embrace the grace of the sacrament through their marriage and helping them to actually parent in a godly manner, right? 

[00:44:37] Jim Jansen: Right. Supernatural patience. Yeah, that's what I need as a parent. 

[00:44:43] Jodi: What an opportunity. Wrap what they need in what they want. Right. And actually, what they want is a good thing. 

[00:44:49] Jim Jansen: Say that, say that again. Cause that's how we use that all the time as a mantra, but I know normal people don't speak that way. 

[00:44:55] Jodi: Wrap what they need in what they want. So do a session on parenting and invite in Catholic charities. Who's just going to be doing some workshops like this at, at St. Wenceslas, but also use it as an opportunity to. To share some things about how they can grow in their faith, right? So, so sprinkle it in there and kind of do both at once. But I think the bigger question then is if they're not, if they're not taking the bait and they're not coming to any faith formation opportunities, and, and we've, we've actually legitimately shared the news about these opportunities every way we haven't, we haven't just put it in the bulletin, but we've made personal invitations. We've announced it from the pulpit. We've done all of these things and people aren't showing up. The question then is, have our people experienced a conversion, right?

So, are they disciples? So, if we don't actually have a conversion moment available, People do actually generally self-select. They, if they say like, I don't really want to do that. I don't want to go to a Bible study. That sounds boring. I don't want to go learn about these things because I'm not even sure if God is real.

That sounds like that's going to be too nerdy or too heady or too this or too that for where I'm at in my spiritual journey. And they, they just kind of know that. So, we've got to really better diagnose where our communities are at. 

[00:46:13] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's, that's huge. I mean, and I think there's, there's a couple of things going on there. I mean, I think what you're saying is disciples, you know, there's different language in the church. Some people have used the term intentional disciples. Some people have, you know, you could say real whatever, but like disciples want to learn about their faith. Disciples want help applying their faith to their life.

And not that we're suddenly like doubting the validity of people's baptism, but people who are no longer experiencing their life as a disciple of Jesus, people who are no longer trying to live as a disciple, before you can start to teach them more about Jesus. They need to meet him again, right? They need to fall in love again.

They need to have an encounter again. And yeah, for, for many of us, that's the prerequisite for any of this working is like, no, no, no, there needs to be an encounter which precedes this again, whole nother, whole nother equip cast on conversion moments. How do you facilitate that encounter for people?

Michelle, you look like you're, I can read your face. 

[00:47:27] Michelle: I was just like, dare I say this is, I don't want to say easiest, but this is one of the easiest parts of the discipleship chart because in my experience, when people have had that conversion with the Lord, they want to learn. And they want to know. And it is challenging because it's like a stripping away of some idols in our lives as we're like, Oh, things I've been holding on to that, like, the Lord is asking me to refine.

But it's just like in the classroom, teaching kids who don't want to learn what you have to say is nearly impossible. It's just not going to work. But when you teach kids who have a desire to learn what you're teaching, like you, you can do it. They will eat out of the palm of your hands because they're so excited to learn it.

And it's really easy to teach them at that point if there's someone to walk with them when they've had that conversion. And they might be scared about certain things still, but they still have the desire. 

[00:48:21] Jim Jansen: Right. Yeah. That's, it's not the same thing between someone who's like, Oh, I'm, you know, my fear, my I'm human, I'm distracted.

I live a full busy life, but that's different than I really just don't want to. Okay, Michelle, I want to give you a chance to kind of testify again because our time is totally flying. You've seen effective faith formation really change the culture of your little parish, of your family, your community of friends. Like I just want you to talk a little bit about like what you've seen. What's different? 

[00:48:54] Michelle: Uh, just community of like, you're not alone. There's other people living out the mission and they have this desire to share the gospel with others. And. It's not just, um, Oh, I have this desire for people now it's like, Oh, me and my friends have this desire for people, which is so beautiful as we gather and pray together and have this common vision.

Um, you're encouraged by one another and each other's strengths and gifts to then go forward and keep living this out in your parish and like knowing that you're not alone. I think that's the biggest thing, like the fruit of all of this is knowing that you're not alone. And I just see like, uh, That the naysayers are starting to be outnumbered.

[00:49:38] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. 

[00:49:38] Michelle: Instead of from like the top down, like changing the way things are, it's almost like this bottom up. And there's just starting to be enough of us that we're like outnumbering. And like the culture is like really starting to shift in that way. Like that exponential growth. 

[00:49:53] Jim Jansen: It is a grassroots movement. Yes. Which is part of the power, we haven't even talked about this, but it's part of the power of like small groups is that those small groups can grow and multiply and what seemed really insignificant seven years ago has now become this like enormous culture shifting force in your parishes. And you guys are really at the tipping point.

You're just like, there's, there's more of us. We're starting to outnumber, uh, those who may just be checking the box, who maybe aren't interested. Those who are kind of passionately trying to live as disciples and missionary disciples is that there's more of you than Those who would be less interested.

[00:50:35] Michelle: Yes. I mean, even just the gift of like being in church and knowing someone is new there and knowing like, Oh, that's fine. Like that person sitting by him. I know they're going to reach out to them after church. Like just that, that type of gift. There's just more of us. 

[00:50:49] Jim Jansen: Michelle, just I want to give you a chance because you guys have been at work on a clear path for quite a while, and there's a couple of things that you all have in place.

That's like the next step, right? So, after faith formation, I mean, we've talked about it a couple of times that part of the way, you know, faith formation is working is if people grow and mature and are ready for the next step. Evangelization formation. They're like, okay, I get it. Jesus wants me to love my neighbor.

And I think that means telling them about Jesus in my own way. Okay. What do you guys do for evangelization formation? 

[00:51:21] Michelle: Yeah. So once again, it's like leaning heavily to small groups and we have lean into Live Lent Together for sure. As a tool for… 

[00:51:31] Jim Jansen: Wait, wait. What's, what's Live Lent Together? I'm a big fan. I know what it is, but... 

[00:51:37] Michelle: The archdiocese has created some beautiful Bible studies and just this initiative that lent is a great time when people are more open to doing something extra. 

[00:51:50] Jim Jansen: Yep. Get, get in a small group. Don't just give up chocolate. 

[00:51:53] Michelle: Yes. So, it's a great way to capitalize on that and invite someone into a small group where they can have a true encounter or a true equipping or true learning to evangelize all those types of things.

And so, we have utilized that. I feel. To one, help people learn how to evangelize by asking them to co-lead a Live Lent Together group. Or to take the next step and lead it on their own. It's a great opportunity to like step out, Hey, will you lead this with me? And we're going to kind of, you know, they can watch and see and learn how to kind of help people encounter the Lord through that space and then go on to do it themselves, hopefully.

[00:52:34] Jim Jansen: Right. So, their first step into mission is like, Hey, Lynn's coming up. I think you should lead a group. You were, you've been part of my group the last couple of years. We're going to have a little, little orientation training here for facilitators come with me. Cause you should start your own. 

[00:52:49] Michelle: Yes. Like lead it with me.

[00:52:51] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. Okay. What else? 

[00:52:53] Michelle: We're doing for all of our catechists, our youth minister leaders, four times. A year this year, we're going to ask them to not have class on Wednesday night and instead come to like. a night, a two-and-a-half-hour night just for them to feed into them. And so, on the first night, we shared the gospel, like what the four R's are in your story.

So that God made us for relationships and ruined that. Jesus restored that on the cross and he asked us to respond. We really dived into that with them. And then it was beautiful. Father Keiter stood up and shared his own testimony with all of them, which was beautiful. Beautiful. And then there was some really good small group discussion that happened, but part of the next three sessions is going to eventually be teaching them how to do the same, how to share, share the gospel.

And, you know, cause that's like, I feel like youth ministry sometimes, you know, you know, we just think it's all the intellectual, but that it's so much like, how can they share the gospel with their, their kids too? So, I feel like we're trying like that low hanging fruit, the people who are already disciples, who are already in ministry, who already have an audience to try to feed into them, to teach them how to evangelize.

[00:54:06] Jim Jansen: Right. They're already serving. So, it's like, Hey, what if we equip them to be a little bit more effective in the missionary, you know, aspects of their service? 

[00:54:16] Michelle: Yes, absolutely. And then using the mentorship program as a tool as well, like sending people to the mentorship program who have a desire for that and are ready.

[00:54:27] Jim Jansen: Right, which is like a full on two year, you know, archdiocese and training program that's teaching people how to live as a missionary disciple, share their faith in their, you know, in their own life. Okay, ladies want to give you both a chance here. Uh, Jodi, you first, then Michelle. Just final words of advice, encouragement, uh, for those who are like, they're listening to this and they're like, Oh gosh, you know, there's something that's kind of convicting.

There's maybe some dots that are connected and they want to renew their efforts for faith formation in their parishes, clear path. What would you say to them? 

[00:55:06] Jodi: Yeah. I mean, I think more than advice, just some encouragement. Pause and take that to the Lord, right? That whatever it is that you're, you're feeling and desiring and thinking about, right, your thoughts, your feelings, your desires, take those to the Lord and, and let him speak into those.

So then onto, I guess, to the advice portion is gather others around you who can help you do the work. I actually, Michelle, as you were talking, I was thinking again about that three to one ratio. Right. And then you started talking about youth ministry, and I was like, well, they need five people. All right.

That's what the research shows. So, the reality is, if you're going to do this, it cannot just be you. And I, and I know in many of our parishes, we have one part time person who is the adult faith formation person, and it cannot just be them who's doing this. Even if they're the only person who's potentially being paid partially by the parish, they've got to be pulling other team members around them.

And if, if right now, all that means is two people, start with two people who you're praying with and are going forth and doing this because the three of you could, could potentially mentor and disciple several others together and it could expand. But yeah, definitely start to find other people to pull around with you in this space.

[00:56:25] Jim Jansen: Oh, that's so good. Michelle. 

[00:56:27] Michelle: I would just also want to encourage people that, uh, we had a deacon say for six weeks this summer and he said something in a homily. Like if it's not slow, it's not human. If it's not slow, it's not human. So, my encouragement is just that sometimes this work is really slow and don't be discouraged by that.

Like, yes, there is. Um, you know, somewhat of like, we have to do things and things need to move forward, but also it starts really slow before that exponential growth starts to happen. So as like a sanguine temperament that I am, I want to just say like, have fun as you do this, have fun, like get excited about learning these things again and sharing it with people.

Like, just, just enjoy that slow process and the Lord shows up. The Lord does. 

[00:57:19] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. Ladies, thank you. This has been a fantastic conversation. For those of you listening, you're like, wait, wait, wait, what? Mentorship program? What? Live, learn together. We'll link to the, uh, our chassis and website. Uh, you can find all the things there, you know, live, learn together, a small group movement, uh, mentorship program.

All the, all the stuff. Uh, there's lots of gold in this conversation. So, encourage you. I don't think I've ever encouraged anybody. You might want to listen to this one again. There were a couple of things are like, Oh man, I never even thought about that. Uh, give yourself some time. Cause there's a lot. A lot of gold that these ladies shared.

So, courage you when you get to your destination, maybe just hit play again. Uh, and maybe share it out with somebody else who needs to hear it. Thanks for listening to the equip cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip.archomaha.org. God bless and see you next time.