[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the So today I sit down with Ryan Verret. Uh, Ryan and his wife Mary Rose, are the founders of Witness to Love a beautiful marriage catechumenate that helps bring. Well mentor couples into the lies of these new young couples who are trying to set out for marriage. It helps provide a witness to what authentic Christian marriage looks like.

It's a beautiful conversation. We talk about, uh, his upbringing in New Orleans. We talk about how do you actually accompany couples? What's changed in our circumstances and the amazing results they've seen? Simply by providing a witness and a mentor to walk with these couples, uh, through the marriage preparation process, uh, through the marriage catechumenate, you're gonna love today's conversation.

Take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Janssen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

Ryan Verret, welcome to the Equip Cast. How you doing today? 

[00:01:17] Ryan Verret: I'm doing great. Thanks for, uh, asking and thanks for having me. 

[00:01:20] Jim Jansen: Uh, yeah, we're super, super excited. We were having fun chatting a little bit before the, you know, turned on the mics here. It's been a while. We met in person, you and Mary Rose came out, uh, you did a, a training for us here in the Archdiocese of Omaha, and it's like, holy cow.

It's already been like, it's been a couple years ago. I know. For those who don't know you, and we're gonna talk about. Witness to love and marriage prep in a bit here, but just tell us a little bit about your personal story. Yeah. When did you meet the Lord? When did you hear a call to Mission? What's your story, Ryan?

[00:01:49] Ryan Verret: Yeah. I grew up, I grew up in an intact family, and I think that's always a, a great thing to highlight. I grew up in, uh, raised a Catholic here in south Louisiana outside of Lafayette, Louisiana, which is a very, uh, deep Catholic historical, you know, AR area. And, uh, nothing perfect obviously, but uh, just was really as we'd say, you know, in the south, kind of pickled in the faith and, uh, all the Catholic culture.

A lot of good food music. 

[00:02:15] Jim Jansen: Oh wait, did you say pickled in the faith? I've never heard that. 

[00:02:18] Ryan Verret: Pickled in the faith. And what I mean by that, you know, the faith is not something that's just supposed to be a, you know, an article to read. It's something that's supposed to, maybe another certain southern word kind of get marinated. You know, and 

[00:02:29] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh my gosh, that is so good. I've never heard that. 

[00:02:32] Ryan Verret: Yeah. So, yeah. So, you know, I think, uh, I was able to just kind of be raised in a, a, a culture, you know, and a faith, my family's Cajun Ian, you know, they, the, uh, sort of the descendants of, uh, area of, from an area in France that, that were categorized by Lou and Montford, it's very Marion.

Then they were in Nova Scotia, then kicked out. Relocated in Louisiana. And so, um, until, you know, Napoleon, so Louisiana, so I mean, my parents and my grandparents', first language was French. It was kind of an interesting thing, you know, being in, in the south. 

[00:03:03] Jim Jansen: Nice. 

[00:03:03] Ryan Verret: Louisiana's a unique place. And so umm uh, I grew up around a, like extended family early on in, uh, in, you know, in high school.

I, I'd say had a really significant awakening being, um. During my confirmation yearly encountered, you know, Christ really. I think honestly, I, I think we would've said this back then in the late nineties, but, you know, being discipled, being mentored and, uh, with some, um, older brothers in, in the college, college field in their life.

And so that was, uh. 

[00:03:30] Jim Jansen: Nice. 

[00:03:31] Ryan Verret: Yeah, just kind of, I never thought about it. I hadn't thought about it in a while, so Good, good point. Asking. Then I ended up going up to, uh, college and grad school in Boston. I went to Boston College, which was a unique experience and uh, was there though in, uh, in Boston where I, um, really, I think took on another, another level of discipleship.

I was kind of raising the charismatic movement, which was interesting, you know? 

[00:03:54] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:03:54] Ryan Verret: But, uh, to Boston and just made some great friends there. Uh, sort of found my way, had a deeper appreciation of the faith I was there, uh, you know, in the, uh, you know, in the early two thousands whenever the whole clergy sex abuse crisis was taking place.

So that's kind of something so challenging. But, you know, there were just some, that was a moment in the faith that was obviously, that was really kind of. Uh, sobering for a lot of people, particularly myself. Mm-hmm. Raised in an area where, you know, the, the, you know, the church has really been, uh, such a great gift in the priesthood.

And so, but still, you know, we just, uh, persevered, uh, met Mary Rose. She's from Virginia. She had gone to Christian college. She was raised in a Latin mass movement. In some ways. I was raised in the charismatic movement, so we were married 17 years ago and identify as charismatic, and so we're. 

[00:04:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I was like, like, wow. That's a great.

[00:04:44] Ryan Verret: I know, I know. And

[00:04:45] Jim Jansen: I mean, at least there's a little bit of southern sensibility to Virginia, but Wow. 

[00:04:50] Ryan Verret: Yeah. We, uh, felt God had put in our heart to, uh, get married. And when we met, we were just infringed. She was working in the young, uh, young adults ministry for the Diocese of Arlington, Virginia.

I was working at the time, had my finished a background in medical ethics and healthcare administration and, and working in the hosp hospital work. So very different than what I was doing now. Doing now. We were married, yes. 17 years ago. Um, and then, uh, we have, uh, six children, three boys and three girls ended up, so when we decided to be engaged, we moved to Louisiana.

I moved back to Louisiana. She eventually came, we were married. And then, um, yeah, so we, we, uh, have, yeah, six, six children. Our oldest is, um. She's in 10th grade. She's, uh, she'll be 16 this, uh, this December, and our youngest is, will be three in December. Great. And so we, we get to, uh, probably like a lot of your listeners or yourself, you, you just, you, you get to spend a lot of time getting to know yourself and how to balance through a lot of psychological dimensions and mm-hmm.

And so, uh, but, uh, praise, praise God. We're all, we're, we're all in it together. I would say the, I think the greatest gift, uh, obviously is, you know, every, every morning Marys and I get a chance to get up early and to pray and, you know, just to pray the rosa together and, and, uh, you know, spend time with the Lord.

And I think, uh, I think where I am right now in the faith, the rosary has been such a gift because I think when you're raising teenagers and you run out of things to say, you just, you know, 

[00:06:14] Jim Jansen: right. We're like, all right, Mary, you got, uh, help. 

[00:06:16] Ryan Verret: Yeah, yeah. Help me out beer because, so, but no, they're, they're good.

Keep us on our toes and it's a Monday morning, everyone's back in school, praise God. And so we're putting the pieces of the house back together and getting some work done now. 

[00:06:28] Jim Jansen: There we, there we go, man. Right. I'd love just, I mean, thank you for sharing about just the, you know, the background growing up in Louisiana.

I've, I've had a couple, well, one really like, just memorable trip where I got to see a little bit of kind of New Orleans in this case culture. Like the authentic Catholic version, you know? 'cause it's, it's almost always a caricature. Yeah. That's like, sure. Portrayed. 

[00:06:53] Ryan Verret: Yeah. 

[00:06:54] Jim Jansen: Like the deep roots of the faith in Louisiana Catholic culture down there. It's really special. 

[00:07:02] Ryan Verret: I don't want to geek out too much on this, but yeah, we're, we're pretty, um, we're part of a, a, a group of a lot of families that have deep roots in, uh, in the kind of a Keating culture, which, you know, for those who may have heard of it, it's we're from the, uh, originally from the Von Day region of France, which was the, the area of France that really, um.

During the revolution had, uh, really was the, the last resistance, you know, honoring the faith, protecting the clergy, and really, uh, kinda like the, uh, movement in, in Mexico, right? Yeah. Very similar thing. We grew up with a, you know, saying in French, God, you know, God ultimately is the king. So anyway, so the, uh, I, it's interesting kind of point because you know, when our Lady of Fatima mentions that, you know, the final battle will be against, you know, the family.

And, you know, understanding scripture in St. Paul says, you know, the powers and principalities sort of work us in the world. But I think in many ways, knowing wherever your family is from, particularly if your family has Catholic roots or deep Christian roots, you know that there's always a moment in time where we need to kind of come together.

And sometimes what we're doing in the future is not all that different, or the president was not all that different, what we've done in the past. So. 

[00:08:10] Jim Jansen: Yeah, no, I mean, I feel that, you know, sorry, I mean, good. My German Irish. 

[00:08:16] Ryan Verret: Yeah. 

[00:08:17] Jim Jansen: Particularly what, what, what I'm finding most meaningful these days in terms of family history is, you know, my, uh, grandparents who were like living kind of like during the depression.

I mean, my grandfather was widowed, uh, had 10 kids, lost his wife during the depression. 10 kids, two of which are special needs. Wow. Trying to raise them during the Dust bowl. On a very, I mean, it wasn't a great farm anyway. I'm not much of a farmer, but like, you know, as the, as the family of legend stories go, his best crop was the gravel pit, you know, where, where like he would, you know, gravel for the county or for other people at, you know, some cement mixing project.

And it's like, man, I'm not much of a farmer, but if your best crop is gravel, that's not a great sign. Yeah, so like I just con connecting with the, the poverty, the, the family unity is what kind of like helped them, uh, stay together. The, the really, the whole family. Pulling together extended family at all?

Uh, it does. It's like, you know, it's not, I'm not dealing with the same things, but there's a little bit of rhyme, uh, at least in the, the way forward. You know, if we're gonna stick together, if we're gonna, if we're gonna, you know, ultimately clinging to our faith, that's, uh, I find a lot of inspiration there in looking back.

[00:09:29] Ryan Verret: Yeah. Yeah. No, well said. 

[00:09:32] Jim Jansen: Ryan, so I wanna, I wanna really jump in here. I wanna give you the opportunity to kind of just like set the context, kind of lay things out for people, because your work with Witness to Love You and Mary Rose now, how, how long has it been, how, how long has Witness to love been in existence now?

[00:09:48] Ryan Verret: Uh, basically on the age of our, our second child who's, um, who's a freshman in high school, so about 14 years. 

[00:09:55] Jim Jansen: Okay. About 14 years. Yeah. So you've been in this for a while. I wanna give you a chance just to kind of lay out the state of me marriage preparation today in the church. Just for the layman, you know, who, those who maybe don't live in this world every day. What's. 

[00:10:08] Ryan Verret: Yeah. 

[00:10:08] Jim Jansen: What's it like? What's the landscape? 

[00:10:10] Ryan Verret: Yeah. The landscape is really, is really interesting. That's sometimes referred to it as sort of the state of the union or the state of Disunion, you know, the Union of marriage. Know, there are, there are obviously, there are, uh, hundreds, you know, over a hundred dioceses in the United States, and, you know, currently we have the opportunity to serve a good number of 'em and a lot of parishes and clergy.

What's interesting today, you know, when we first started, you know, I had this idea of a, a catechumenate way of marriage formation, uh, very relational way, marriage formation, you know, 14 years ago. We had come across, uh, you know, and I think anybody in the audience should probably follow this group as the, uh, KARA Institute out of Georgetown University in Washington DC So they published statistical information for, for dioceses and for the US Conference of Bishops.

And we had learned that, you know, in the early 1970s there were around almost 500,000, like, I think it was like 470 something thousand catholic marriages, so that's not invalidations or, you know, second marriages, first time kind of Catholics marrying Catholics for 470,000 Catholic weddings. I think the Catholic population in the United States was maybe around 30 million in the, uh, seventies, 1970s.

And so today though, currently, you know, the Catholic population has, is over doubled. It might be close to 68 million I believe in the United States. Unfortunately, if you look at the data from the Georgetown KARA Institute, it'll show that, uh, the number of sacramental weddings in the United States is hovering around the, you know, around 92,000 a year.

And it's just been sort of dropping.

[00:11:43] Jim Jansen: Man.

[00:11:44] Ryan Verret: In, in many ways. The past 20 years has been a significant drop, could be various things, but I think it's good to know the, the data it could have to do with. The declining birth rate. They're just less people. They're less families are smaller, you know, years. You know, I'm one of a family of four, marriage is one of eight.

You know, we have six children, but we're not the norm. Not everybody, you know, the, the average child is like 1.4 or something per. 

[00:12:10] Jim Jansen: Right. But that's, I mean, Ryan, those are ing, and I know you live in those Oh, sure. STAs statistics, but that's devastating. I mean, it's like one fifth. Of the number of Catholic marriages that it was in the seventies at a time when the population of Catholics has more than the same period.

The, the population of the Catholics is more than doubled. 

[00:12:31] Ryan Verret: Sure. Yeah. It's, it's. 

[00:12:32] Jim Jansen: I mean, cow. 

[00:12:33] Ryan Verret: I'm glad you appreciate that. I'm, I'm glad you appreciate that because. 

[00:12:35] Jim Jansen: Well, in a depressing sort of way, I'm impressed. I mean. 

[00:12:39] Ryan Verret: I'm just pointing to the, uh, the data, um, and, and the numbers. That can, may help you to draw a lot of conclusions that could, uh, motivate you or depress you, depending upon, you know, mm-hmm.

Where you are currently. But, you know, it could also do something with, with the way, you know, the church and the faith had been perceived over the past 20 years. The crisis, the, and the, the, the breakdown of also institutional trust, organizational trust across the board of millennials could be also, you know, because the breakdown relates to the family, less people getting married, no fault divorce, obviously there's so many things.

I always kind of go back to, you know, I was not alive in the fifties, nor are you, and maybe a few of your listeners were alive in the fifties, but there was a line being held publicly that I would say. Basically put, I could say here it was the 10 Commandments. You just really lived the 10 Commandments and, and you didn't do it perfectly.

But, uh, and I know we're called to live beyond just, you know, lived in, sort of determined the mountain, the beatitudes, but people really, they stayed in marriages. Um, they were open to life. But you know, in the sixties there was a, a huge shift, right? There was a revolution that supposedly, quote unquote, a revolution with the introduction of contraception.

Really, you know, and then the sixties, just the whole breakdown. And I really appreciate the work of John Paul II and Paul Benedict. A whole breakdown on the understanding of the person's kind of an that, an anthropological issue that was in, it's been a decline, right? So the sixties redefinition of a sexual act, and in the seventies redefinition of life with the Ro Roe v.

Wade of praise God that's been overturned in many states. And then, you know, the eighties, many women, you know, read the definition of, uh, femininity with the eighties. You know, a lot of moms needing to go to work, desiring to go to work, whatever reason in the nineties, you know, uh, when probably a lot of us, nineties and early two thousands in formative years were.

It was when the me redefinition of masculinity, right. And so metrosexuals, all these kind of terms, you know, that came about. And then, you know, ultimately there was redefinition of marriage itself. And so there's been a really interesting thing. But now not to be, I don't wanna stay there because if, if anyone's paying attention, and I have a, there's a lot of cool things there has, there is a change taking place currently in the United States, which is fascinating.

There is a, I really say there's an authentic counter-revolution that has taken place.

[00:14:57] Jim Jansen: Which is not getting, I want you to talk about that. 'cause it doesn't get a lot of press depending on if you don't have the eyes to see it. If you don't know where to look, it could easily be overlooked. 

[00:15:09] Ryan Verret: It could definitely be overlooked. But, and, and it's, and you know, everybody's in kind of in their, their neighborhoods or where are you listening? Where are you driving? But there, there is a, a counter revolution of people who are now looking for. Something that's authentic, that's authentically human, that endures that last, and it's an ultimate good.

I would say I re, I heard one time that four generations after used to be in the kind of business corporate world, they said four generations after a family starting a business, the fourth generation will cash out and want to switch. Not to use this term, boomers to insult anybody, but you know, there was a cultural shift that took place in the sixties and seventies and there was a decline, at least from the point of morals and values.

And now these millennials and these, uh, zoomers, these generation Z, they're kind of switching. They're, they're leaving that, that way. Mm-hmm. And I think probably like more than Ulysses. And I know when Mary and I got married, we, we came from good backgrounds, but. We, our families were not equipped in many ways.

They were equipped at a human level, but there were, there were things that we had to kind of learn on our own and sort of pioneer in a way that was not, uh, that wasn't a roadmap for, you know, and so,. 

[00:16:33] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:16:34] Ryan Verret: It's fascinating what's happening now.

[00:16:35] Jim Jansen: Oh, Ryan, that rings so true. I remember again, you know, my, my wife and I when we got married, it's been almost 25 years now, and we were blessed.

We, like, we lived in the Shire, we were in Lincoln, Nebraska, beautiful, wonderful, you know, all these great families around, and many of them who had experienced a, a, a depth of conversion and faith formation at the Newman Center. But there was this clear sense for most of these families who, who had been.

These couples who say, who were, who had already been the product of good families, right? Like you and Mary Rose. Okay. My parents did great. They passed on the faith. We had a, a leg up, uh, at a natural level. And yet still there was this deep sense, and this is like, you know, 25 years ago that, you know, what if, if we do what our parents.

We're gonna fail, we're gonna lose, we're gonna lose our kids. We're gonna, like, we might lose our own souls. We might lose our marriage. Like there's, like, we just can't do what our parents did. And our parents were the best of the previous generation, but we just recognized like the, the culture and the world around us had changed so dramatically that we had to do something different.

So I just, what you're saying really resonates as, as true. Tell us a little bit about, like, tell us about Witness to Love, because some of this, you all have, I think, been able to catch a little bit of the wave of some of the renewal that is happening in the church. The desire of these, you know, these younger couples.

Talk a little bit about what you do, what your, what your vision for marriage preparation is. 

[00:18:11] Ryan Verret: Really interesting story. When we started, when we had the idea of a Catechumenal. Approach to marriage formation. So this was 14 years ago. John Paul ii. And if, if anybody has a chance to read, just he wrote this document on the family or familiarities Cons concerto.

It's a beautiful document and just, it's paragraph 66, but he really outlines what marriage formation for the sacrament of marriage should be. When we had gotten married, I think like you were, you, maybe you've alluded to or, and, and probably somebody listeners would appreciate, you know, we, we were committed to letting God be, you know, the defining winner, the letting the covenant be, the, the what binds us together and you know, with our perfections that we have.

Our weaknesses, our strengths, those types of things. Ultimately the god and the covenant. The bond, holy sacrament, the sacrament matrimony would, would always win and it would endure. But not too long after we got married, we were seeing, uh, friends of ours, some relatives, you know, just divorce. And so the divorce statistic, you know, in the United States is at 23% of Catholics.

Are divorced in the first five years of marriage, 23%. The national divorce rate is around 25%. I was scandalized by that number. Why? Why is that? Because I believe wholeheartedly in. Would, would Christ reveal to the church? I mean, we just, you know, this upcoming, you know, we, every Friday we celebrate the feasts of the sacred heart of Jesus.

And you know, the, and the preface for the, for the mass of this Feast of Sacred heart says from his wounded side is a source of the sacramental life of the church. The blood and water that flowed was a creation of the church. So I say that because God's grace and all that he does is omnipotent, and he's there and he's present, but.

How can it be the, the grace and all that the church is putting forward in the past has only been having a. 

[00:20:15] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:16] Ryan Verret: A, a 2% statistical difference. And, uh, you know, you, and by the way, right, anybody's getting bored with measuring things. I'm just like, you know, it needs to be a wake up call. If you're not measuring what we're doing, then you just might as well kind of wrap up shop because, um, people need to know that if you're engaging an apostolate or any effort in the church, the numbers need to speak for themselves.

Obviously, God's doing something in the background, and so we watching things said, how can it, how can that be? And so we said, yeah. Marriage preparation, for lack of a better word, cannot be business as usual, right? 

[00:20:47] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, and right. I mean, just to pile on, I, I love that. Just like right, you just, just close up shop if you're not measuring because.

What is a safe assumption is that the methods that we had been using in previous generations are no longer bearing the fruit that they had. So you just have to assume, I'm gonna have to figure out a new way to do it now. A new way, an old way, right back. Back to a very fundamentally relational mode of evangelization and accompaniment.

You know, Allah like the first Christians, but the first Christians. I mean, we don't have good data, but like I think they had better than like a 2% difference in their marriage race, right? They were being burned alive and thrown to the lions, and this very pagan culture that had spiritual sunglasses on was overwhelmed by the bright light of their witness.

So that they would decide, you know, what I want, what they have, nevermind that there are, that, that probably means I'm gonna be thrown to the lions too. And now when there's like almost no statistical difference between Catholics and, and, and the rest of the world, like you gotta believe the Lord wants more.

[00:22:02] Ryan Verret: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:22:03] Jim Jansen: The grace pouring from his heart is just, it's like. It's there if we can avail ourselves of it. 

[00:22:10] Ryan Verret: Seeing those numbers and also seeing, um, you know, marriage and I were kind of voluntold by our bishop at the time. 

[00:22:17] Jim Jansen: That's a great spot to be in. 

[00:22:19] Ryan Verret: To lead the, so the way the diocese here at Lafayette wonderful diocese kind of provided for marriage preparation at the time was that there was a, you know, you would meet with your pastor.

Or the priest, he can marry you a couple of times he would go to um, uh, uh, two days of the diocese with about 70 other couples. And, uh, one day is for the, uh, life skills and one day with theology. Great content. Great material. 

[00:22:46] Jim Jansen: Right? Faith faithful. I think that's important to know. You're saying great. Like this is like authentic presentation of what the church teaches.

[00:22:53] Ryan Verret: Oh, sure. Oh yeah. Oh, sure. 

[00:22:54] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:22:54] Ryan Verret: Of course. 

[00:22:55] Jim Jansen: That's helpful. 

[00:22:55] Ryan Verret: Yeah. Nothing squishy. Nothing squishy. Yeah. We're way, way beyond that. And all you listeners, we're not, this is not, you know, the eighties anymore like this was, right? This was some. Good things, putting together great videos and all, all, all the things.

But it's, we realized though that even with what the, I think the Diocese of Lafayette and many of the dioceses in Louisiana at the time were requiring everything that canonically you could even a ask of an engaged couple. 

[00:23:20] Jim Jansen: Hmm. 

[00:23:21] Ryan Verret: You know, you couldn't really do, do more. Also, there was also a hesitancy. If we ask 'em to do too much, they're gonna go away.

They're not gonna get married here. Right. It's always, it's always this excuses drives me crazy. There was a shift and so, and then we realized all those couples that were going to the Dosan program. We're not going to mass in the parish. They weren't even come. Mm-hmm. They weren't come to church after the wedding day.

And we realized that nine out 10 engaged couples are not going to mass during their engagement. And they, they were, they're not, if they're not gonna master in the engagement, they're definitely not gonna go after the wedding day. And so you start looking at the statistics in the, the numbers of parishes closing annually in the United States.

What is it like 200 now? Because there's no one in these, in these communities, you know? And so. We were, we, and we get that being in a, a place that's been a lot of Catholics around for a long time. We had to see, mm-hmm. There needed to be a little bit of a course correction, so we couldn't figure all that out.

But in our town we said, let's try something different. We started asking these engaged couples that are the newly married couples, particularly one who was, who was divorced, and we asked her, you know, she was divorced like a year and a half after the wedding day. We asked her, why didn't you, you know, you were a, you were assigned a mentor couple.

Why didn't you reach out to that mentor couple? And and she said, she says, look, I, um, she says they were really nice people, but she says, honestly, they were so different than us. Mm-hmm. So the question is then why didn't you talk to our pastor at the time? A great guy, father Michael. We love Father Michael, but honestly, we were so.

Afraid. I was so afraid that I would disappoint him, that I, I didn't wanna go and talk with him. So, well, who did you, so when y'all were struggling, your marriage before you divorced, who did you talk to? And she says, well, I talked to some friends and I talked to one P and like, which one? She said, well, I talked to one, a good friend of mine who was divorced already and said, mm-hmm.

And she said the key thing, well, you're, you know, you're, you're still young. You can, you can get out of this classic kind of typical thing. 

[00:25:25] Jim Jansen: Man. That's heartbreaking. 

[00:25:27] Ryan Verret: And so we realized, Bob. If they're not trusting us and they're afraid to talk to father and, and then, you know, they went through all, all this trust, is there something that can change?

And we realize this key term trust kept coming up. You know, there's been such a breakdown in trust and authentic trust and an experience of trust and a, and a relational level. And so we said, well, if they don't trust us, is there maybe instead of them being required to have a mentor. Or they were assigned a mentor, we thought to theirselves.

What if they would go and choose their own mentor is a very different approach. Is there anybody in the parish who's, who's been married as a cath, who lives as a Catholic, who's, who's happy that they know of, that they can have for that person to be their mentor? And so that's what we did. It was, it was just a one change.

This was before all the, the things now that are in place that SU support sustained witness to love. It was one change. We said they're gonna continue to do everything. They're still gonna go to the SSON days, they're still gonna go do the NFP program t uh, course, they're still gonna do the inventories and focus at the time.

And he said, but one thing is different. They're gonna choose their. A mentor and we, and we were studying the writings of Sherry Wooddale and it was really fascinating and forming intentional discipleship. And she talks about that there are the, the, the wanderers, the seekers, the disciples and the apostles, and we realized that they married couples in the church, was really in the role of the apostles.

Ju I trust in you this, this two is 2% of Catholics that are living the church's teachings completely with regards to fertility and finance and all these areas. But, but then there you have your apo, your disciples, you know, in your study area are. Who are like, uh, making Chrissy or Acts or something like that, but then, and, but it's, it's the, it's the apostles and the disciples that have been writing the content, but assuming they're writing the content for couples who are disciples themselves, because what, they went to Catholic school, so they're, now they're, that means, right, they're right.

Are they went to Catholic high school, you know, but most of them. You know, a lot of, some are seekers, but the most of them are wanderers. Why we say that nine outta 10 engaged couples today are cohabitating, and if they're cohabitating, they're contracepting, and there's no condemnation in Christ. This doesn't, just because I'm saying these things, uncomfortable things as, I mean, we're condemning anybody, but if they're cohabitating, they're contracepting, then they're probably okay with pornography and all these types of things, or maybe not okay. They just kind of indifferent to it. And a lot of these engaged couples, the state of the union is basically, they meet in a bar, they meet at a place where there's alcohol. Shortly after that, they are, they're, they're sleeping together, you know, and sexually active.

And a certain point the holidays come around and, and somebody is, is uncomfortable that says we need to see an engagement ring on a finger. And so they never, from a, like a Ignatian discernment way, like, or from a canonical way, they never like decide to marry. They never choose to marry. They what we call, they just, they slide into marriage.

And so we've had like two generations, right? We've had 50 years of this sequence. So on the other hand, John Paul II and Pope Francis even more was saying, and now Pope Leo, they need to be initiated into the faith. They, they should not be sliding into marriage. They should be initiated into the sacrament of matrimony, which is a very different thing.

[00:28:53] Jim Jansen: Right? I just love that. I mean, it's like. Good faithful preparation material done by great people. If you assume, and, and I get it, like if you assume, okay, they want Christian marriage, so they must be Christians, they must be living as disciples. I understand how someone like that's confusing. They just asked for Christian marriage, but the fact is they're not living as disciples and to design a process and a material that assumes that.

Is deadly. Yeah. It just, it doesn't, it doesn't give 'em what they need. Yeah. They actually need an initiation into the entirety of the faith, into the Christian community, into the, what it means to live as a disciple. 

[00:29:39] Ryan Verret: I, yeah, and, and I mean, just to go a little bit deeper, just into some Catholic thought here in, in doctrine, I mean, we know the saying that Grace.

Not too on these things. God's grace is there, but it requires that, that as a human being and as a couple, we are living according to our nature. Mm-hmm. That's why I mentioned earlier the 10 Commandments. If you, if we are living, if I am living and anyways is, is living outside of the 10. If we've broken any of those 10 commandments and broken our, our relationship, uh, in God's image, you know, like, uh, distorted that, or sort of twisted it, I guess the St. Thomas Aquinas would say. Then Grace can't sat you, you can't living sort of broken the fifth or sixth commandment and you know, or or the ninth or 10th commandment and, and say, you know what, like I want to have a supernatural marriage. Right? I wanna have an excellent marriage. And so the problem and the old way before witness to love was that let's just pile up like a Prussian model of drill to kill Cate lessons and just.

Throw things, throw the book at 'em. Right, right. Remember word truth, bomb, and like just, you know, just they will, they will come along. So it was like, you know, behave, believe, belong. But that sequence has led to a decline in the church and family. And so when we, when we're going back to John Paul ii and he says.

He says, we have to really be honest. And, and Familiars Conser, paragraph 66, he says, we can provide for the, the intellectual formation, the pedagogical formation. So like these inventories, uh, you know, focus or what, however you doing the, the medicinal kind of NFP, he says, but ultimately he says the, the most important aspect of preparation for the sacrament of matrimony is that would grow, that they are established and given and receive a desire.

To be a part of the ecclesial community, or the church says they, they, they develop a desire to really mm-hmm. You're saying to wanna be Christian, to wanna be Catholic. Yeah. And the desire, where does, where does, how does desire so that we have the, we're made of a body, a mind, a body, and a soul. Right. So we have this mind.

This, this whole component and then, which is sort of the intellectual, the sort of the faith formation in the, in the mind. And then we have the body, which is need for virtue, but the, the, the virtuous living and body activities in the mind open to Christ, you know, God's real intersects. In the soul or the affect or the emotions, and that's where that, mm-hmm.

Desire comes from. But what we, the, the problem is, the issue has been that, is that church and those who are leading and providing for marriage formation have only provided for the intellectual, the aspect of, of the person. 

[00:32:30] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:31] Ryan Verret: Leaving behind two thirds of the person. Question was, well how do we do that?

How do you get the affect to desire? The good life, the good, true and the beautiful? Yeah. And we realized what do they needed to see was marriage. They need, they needed to see a Christian marriage. And that's why we created about Witness to Love, where we said, you go and find now a couple, a witness to love.

[00:32:55] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:56] Ryan Verret: And that, but until you find that couple, we cannot put a date on the calendar. 

[00:33:01] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh, Brian, it's so. I mean, would you say it that way? It's like, I mean, just common sense. 

[00:33:07] Ryan Verret: Sure. 

[00:33:08] Jim Jansen: But it But it hasn't, yeah. It's like, oh, right, right, right. They have to want a beautiful marriage. They have to want like Christian marriage and to want it.

They have to see it. I mean, it's just. It's so, it's so good. Talk about break it, break down a little bit. Like, you know, we've kind of been like at the, kind of like the, the philosophical pedagogical approach. Talk a little bit about the mechanics. Yeah. I mean, mentor couples, the process, because I mean, spoiler alert, I'll, I'll give you a chance to, you know, to, to brag a little bit later.

But like the results you all have seen. Are phenomenal. I mean, just super hopeful for the future of marriage and of course just the, the church's health, parish health in general. But talk a little bit about like, okay, what, what are some of the elements? 

[00:33:55] Ryan Verret: The big element of it is the mentor couple, so the eng engage an engaged couple.

At some point they realize they, they wanna get married in the church. Oftentimes, unfortunately they're getting married in the church because somebody is saying, I will pay for the wedding. Your wedding if you get married in the church, some grandmother or something like that. And so not all the time, but you know. 

[00:34:15] Jim Jansen: No, but even if there's not a financial explicit like that, there's this like, man.

W we'll, we'll jump through some of these hoops just to avoid the awkwardness of, you know, mom and dad and grandma crying and all of that. So like, it's just, even if it's not as blatant as like the bribe, we, we will pay for the party. There's still a social emotional thing that's, that's sometimes in the way. 

[00:34:42] Ryan Verret: The worker witness to love. What we do primarily is when that engaged couple decides to, to come to the parish. Our work primarily is, is the, is the formation and support of the parish on that wedding day. So when that engaged couple comes, they're encountering something at the parish that is not seen as a vendor. And I can't tell you how many times I've heard parish leader say, we just feel like we are one of the vendors we're with.

We're, we're, yeah. It's like DJ Flores. Cake, you know, flowers, whatever it is, photographer, the church is like a vendor we're saying that has to go, that model has to go away. And the, the old Pre-Cana models, in some ways sort of made it. Exasperated this process. Why is because they made marriage prep as just a box to check mm-hmm.

In the process. Mm-hmm. And so what, where, what John Paul II said was basically the family has to really be the way of the church. So we go back to a, a model. Where the, the parish sees the home as a missionary outpost, like in the family. And so, but realizing a lot of these engaged couples haven't come from a family.

So when father or Deacon meets that engaged couple and welcomes 'em and says they're free to marry canonically. He says well before you, I can put it, we can put a date on the calendar. I see you wanna get married next September. I can't do that until you go and find a mentor. Couple and a lot of 'em, and he's like, this is what you're getting married here.

We're going to give you the best formation possible one. One of the. Best gifts we the church can give you is a lifeline to this parish and a lifeline to what a Christian and Catholic family looks like today. 

[00:36:20] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:20] Ryan Verret: And like, and so they, the, the mentor requirements are they have to be married five years or more.

They have to be going to church regularly. And most importantly, there are a couple that both the engaged look up to now, I said that this has a, a model marriage. Like something that, that it's a vision of marriage that they are attracted to. When we first started this, we were a little bit insecure because a lot of priest says, there's no way I'm ever gonna let an a lot of bishop, so I'm ever gonna let an engaged couple just accused on mentor couples.

[00:36:48] Jim Jansen: Yes. Talk about that. 

[00:36:50] Ryan Verret: Oh, huge. Oh yeah. And so people listening, you know, this is probably, usually when they say, okay, I, I'm ready to go, but. This has been kind of the most controversial point. And we, but we really were seeing that when the engaged couples were choosing a mentor and the mentor couple was coming in, not as an expert, because they never in, in witness love the mentor couple.

Mm-hmm. That's chosen. Never goes over the inventory, like the focus. They never talk about theology or IVF or, you know, they're not, they're there to show what I mean. Aristotle, St. Thomas Aquinas Catechism. We talk about really clearly the relational virtues required to live a good life. We're talking about, you know, so they're going, they're not, they're not using these classical terms, prudence Justice 10 and Fortitude, but that mentor couple is showing their relational virtues.

So when, when we, when priest say, I'm not gonna allow, allow 'em to, to do that, to choose the mentor couple. We'll say, well, that engaged couple needs to see the nature that's required for grace to be operative. Now over time, now, we've, you know, four years now, I mean 14 years now, we've been, you know, kind of leading, you know, serving this, this movement.

A year and a half ago, Pope Francis a pointed us to a DiCastro marriage family, particularly to share on the gift of, of mentoring. To kind of deep, go deep down a little bit more, if anyone's listening has a psychology background or counseling background, there's a theory and psychology called this attachment theory and how the more you're, you're, the more you bond with someone.

In a formative moment, the more you learn. And so what happens is the mentor couples in witness to love are not teachers. Mm-hmm. They're learning together. They're going to the, for example, it could be the theology or life skills day of the diocese to retreat. They're actually taking the NFP class with them.

They're going to adoration and confession and mass when they can together. Uh, they're doing, they're interviewing the longest. Married couple in their parish. And so what's happening is the witness love the Engaged couple while they're going through a process. Witness Love provides what we say is a kind of a two for one evangelization process where the mentor couple is really going through marriage enrichment and in many ways marriage preparation.

For the first time in their life. They just, many of 'em likely met with Father Deacon a couple times and then we were married. That was. 

[00:39:08] Jim Jansen: Right. Right. 

[00:39:09] Ryan Verret: It's an interesting way, it's a new way. And then you know when, when Pope Francis really kind of. Institutionalized the word marriage catechumenate, which was something we had just John Paul II had said in the eighties.

We were like, well, this is, this is the clarity that we needed. We are back in an apostolic age. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's not christen them anymore as much as we might like it to be in some time at some point. It's just, it is not that way. But the response that we're seeing, the conversions that we're seeing, and particularly not through anything Mary Rose and I are doing, or obviously our team is supporting, but there's a quote from Mother Theresa, which I'll all love, and I always go back to, she says kindness itself has converted more people than zeal, science, or eloquence. Kindness itself has converted more people than zeal, science, or eloquence, and what mentor couples provide is a level of kindness and hospitality that no parish on its own could ever provide. 

[00:40:05] Jim Jansen: Right. Well, it, it, it's back to like that word, you know, trust, it opens up the heart so that the great formation on NFP.

The theological formation on the sacrament coming from, you know, again, a, a qualified, you know, teacher, priest, deacon, whatever, all these other things that have been there that can now be received. 

[00:40:30] Ryan Verret: Right.

[00:40:30] Jim Jansen: Cause there's this relationship of trust that is literally opening people's hearts to be able to receive it.

This is so good. I wanna give you a chance just to, to brag a little bit. 'cause again, all the things, the, the role, the priest, the, you know, the, the assessment inventories, you know, focus was started here in the Archdiocese of Omaha. You know, great. All, all of these tools. Are now coming to life. Talk a little bit about the results that parishes have seen who've adopted this approach.

[00:41:01] Ryan Verret: Yes, that's a, that's a great question because, so we connected early on with a gentleman named Mark Ris at the, uh, university of Texas. And, and what we were seeing was that engaged couples were going to mass. During their engagement and that they were going to mass after the wedding day. And that why?

Because they weren't necessarily going because of, of the parishes in itself, but because they had someone who was waiting for them. 

[00:41:30] Jim Jansen: Wow. Wait, say, say that again. Like, they're not going, 'cause they're like, oh, I learned in marriage prep that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. They're going because someone's waiting.

[00:41:40] Ryan Verret: Somebody was waiting for them. And it, that's the insight that we had gained early on in our process. There was a, a lady named Mother Al Ra, she had, um, started the Chalo movement. I dunno if you've ever heard this Cholo. And it's a, in Medugorje in different places where they, um, they people who are kind of in a drug rehabilitation and just kind of an encounter with Christ and the healing.

And so we, I, I say that, but she had this saying is beautiful. She said a person knows that they, that they're truly love when they experience someone waiting for them. 

[00:42:12] Jim Jansen: Hmm. 

[00:42:14] Ryan Verret: We can say that from the pulpit, but when there's somebody in the pews waiting for you and glad to see you, it's a game changer and looking for you.

[00:42:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah, sa. Saving a spot. 

[00:42:26] Ryan Verret: Saving a spot Saving. Yeah, that there's something about that basic human dynamic. So Witness the love is a very human way. And we don't need to be embarrassed to, to really highlight that Christ preferred a human way or so, God became man, so that we can understand God in a way that we could understand outside of looking at humanity.

And so all of, and so we've been, we've been, we track our numbers and we see that in parishes who are using this way. Who are using this, this, this process. See couples coming back after the wedding day. They see the, the mentor couples that were chosen as EN as mentors to the engaged couple engagement.

Now being chosen as the first godparents, there's a real ultimate relationship and it, it highlights to us this, this point that, that we use to what? To to measure things we witness love. That authentic evangelization and authentic discipleship only moves at the pace of a friendship. It only moves at the, so you, if you want to measure mm-hmm all the effects of discipleship in your parish, then measure the ability of like this relationship.

So if you. If you want them to become a, a, this wander, become a seeker, they need someone to walk with them through that process. Right. And who, who can do that? You and I can't do that. We, we have, you know, but I've been, obviously we've been mentors several times, but when we're not standing in front of a gym, any, in a gym anymore, in auditorium, the diocese speaking to 140 couples that are just looking for a certificate to walk away.

And so, yeah. So now today. This little process that was just a kind of a hobby ministry for us has spread. And um, you know, we're serving a lot of parishes and through, definitely throughout North America, some in South America, and in Europe and Australia and English, and Spanish and French and Vietnamese.

We have a fantastic team that's, you know, supports this, uh, this, this way. 

[00:44:22] Jim Jansen: I wanna just, I was thinking about this on, on, on the way in, you know, thinking about our conversation, just a little, uh, just personal here. You spend a lot of time. On the road, you know, and, and I know you get to travel, uh, sometimes, you know, with your family.

Like why do you do it? 

[00:44:39] Ryan Verret: Yeah. You know, that's a good question because maybe not everyone has that call. I think, I think God has given, well I know God has given Marys and I, uh, a deep appreciation of being on mission and I think also. Being in the homes of so many couples and families and so many rectories around, particularly North America, we have been able to see and hear, you know, the need for God and the need for family, and the need to renew the church.

In a way that I think we could, you know, would never have really understood just by reading it. And so obviously we're, we're giving something whenever we travel, you know, but on the other hand, you receive something that's so, um, crucial and I guess it gives you some, uh, some street cred. Right? Some street credibility.

Mm-hmm. Like this is, this is what. Uh, people are, are saying and needing, you know, we travel. I'll never forget a while back, we were in, um, in a state and, you know, they had two parishes close in the region, and I mean, this couple was really just. Down and like they, they said, how do we, what do we even it?

Will there even be a church? You know, when our children have children, uh, here mm-hmm. This community, you could see that, you know, you know, I had seen that in Nebraska or maybe not so much in, in Louisiana, but there are places in the country that are Oh yeah. Drastic decline. I think that's why, you know, when I go back to the, the hope, even what a lot of us have learned in the past 20, you know, uh, five years since the, uh, quote unquote pandemic, you know, that the family and the home is a true place and center of holiness and of goodness and is an essential aspect of the church.

And, uh, and that marriage is a vocation. In fact, you know, I remember one engaged couple saying to us and witness to love, they said we, they knew marriage was, was a good thing, but they never really knew until they were going through marriage. They witness love that it was something that was holy. Mm-hmm.

And when you, when you, when you encounter a couple that have not been in a path that they would use that language and they say it, you are like, well, like Saint Augustine say, our hearts are, you know, arrest us until we rest. You know, they rest in, in God. 

[00:46:57] Jim Jansen: That's beautiful. Ryan, I just wanna give you a chance maybe just to, to, to touch on what you feel like you've learned from your work with Witness to Love, just some of the application to, to kind of wider the wider questions of evangelization, sacramental prep, renewal in the church.

Because I know you're, you know, you're a deep reader and I see everywhere, you know, conferences and, and I know you've been learning and sharing. How do you see those things c connecting. I see a lot of rhyme just to from, from like the work that you all do, all do. As I talk about witness to love to people, I, I think, I mean honestly I think you should hire me 'cause I think, I think I brag about you guys, you know, like, I mean the, the divorce rate, you know, to take the, a typical 2020 3%, you know, divorce rate for Catholic couples and to drop it to 6% to take a quarter that end up in being involved in the church.

To, to then after their wedding day, to then to, to jump that diss 70, like, that's, that's just amazing. Ryan, what do you, what do you see in, just in the larger church today? What do you see that transfers from your experience with witness to love? Just to the larger questions that the church is experiencing today.

The, the challenges, the questions around renewal. 

[00:48:16] Ryan Verret: I think I need to go back to this, this line that maybe I said kind of quickly is that, you know, authentic growth as a person and growth in faith and growth in discipleship and an awareness that for my, even myself being a son of God, the father only like happens at the pace that I can be in a relationship with others and with another, ultimately, obviously with Christ.

Then my wife, you know, Mary Rose, and then my children know many of us. I think this is a new language that's being used in the church. We were not raised to think this way, you know, before God. And in prayer we knelt. There's nothing wrong with that, but I, and it's good, it's good to kneel, but in, in an additional way.

It's good to be, to be fathered and it's good to be, it's good to be in a family and, um. As we're recording this, you know, on a Monday, just on every Sunday for three years now, uh, Mary Rose and I with several other families on every Sunday at three meet most Sundays, and we meet and we, we pray the rosary and, uh, if it's okay to say we have, uh, you know, like a spirits together.

And, and so it is okay to say and cocktails. It's so, it's so fruitful. That that day, because obviously everyone goes to mass on their own. But sometimes we might have like 60 people and it's instead of a home that's sort of essentially located, this family's very generous and we're just in their yard when it's the weather's.

Okay. But I see the value and the gift of the home. You know, John Paul II would use the term with domestic church, we would say the home as really a. Place, you know, like as a, as a, and as an extension of the parish, as an outpost of the parish, as a part of it. 

[00:49:55] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:56] Ryan Verret: And la and last night, you know, souls Night, we were sitting at the table with our children and just praying together and being able to, to see how the faith has a deeper relational aspect to it.

And it's in that sense that, that the teachings make sense so that mm-hmm. When things get very difficult in life, and if couples are having an experience of infertility. Or just, uh, our infidelity that ultimately, you know, God is the perfect sort of place of love and of goodness and of truth, and that we were always being perfect.

And so I think that's a message that needs to be kind of learned and lived and so that we can always really, we need to lean in on God, but also of oftentimes, you know, like we just had the, you know, feast day in October, Saint Theres, and she said this quote. She was writing back and forth to the seminarian, uh, Maurice.

And, and he was really struggling as a, for whatever it is, his, his identity. And this mother let Saint Tores write to him. And, and, and she said, Saint Tores said to him, you know, isn't, you know Christ ultimately your your king, you know, isn't he ultimately? And he says, and he was struggling with whatever issues it was at the time, a hundred years ago.

But he says, yes, I Jesus is, God is my king. He said, but he said, but, but through you. I, I found that God is much easier to approach and so I really, I really believe you know that each of us are called in a, in a way, and we see this in witness love, in the mentors that they choose. The Holy Spirit is kind of crafting some, an individualized way for us to be re fathered as a nation.

Beautiful thing. This counter revolution I was talking about earlier is that people have, I think, have seen this. There's nothing, there's no other gadget that's gonna make us happy now. I think it's just we've, we have enough. 

[00:51:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:51:42] Ryan Verret: To last a long time. But what we need now is kind of going back to, uh, you know, the heart of who we are, which is made in co god's image and likeness, and the need to not be alone.

[00:51:53] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh, amen. And I just, I just pile on, you know, in the world there's no other gadget and the church, there's no other silver bullet. You know, those who are looking for just, just the right program, just the right video. It's about accompaniment and relationship and being present to one another. That seems to be the, I mean, the content matters, but often it bounces off without when it's, when it's not in that context or relationship.

And that, to me that seems like, you know, it almost, it's like an oversimplification, but if you look at so much of the, of what is working in the church today, whether it be college ministries, whether it be small group movements, you know, programs like rescue projects, Christ Life Alpha, whatever, there's this deeply relational element.

In all of those, you know, um, where, where people are coming to, to know each other, to be known, and they're, I love that, man. I'd never heard that, but I love that, that quote you shared from Therese, where they're, they're like, they're finding God through this person who is walking with them on the journey.

Man, Ryan, our time has totally flown. How can people connect with you and witness to love? Because none of this is rocket science, but you guys have an amazing team that helps parishes and diocese set up trainings, implement this in their parish. How can people connect with you? 

[00:53:16] Ryan Verret: Yeah, the best, the best thing to do is to go to our, our website, witness to love.org.

That's. Witness then to love.org as a 5 0 1 C3. As a nonprofit organization, uh, we've been given the the gift to be able to do some amazing work and high quality work and in a way that's accessible. To any, anyone in the United States. And so we've never wanted to be an organization that's just kind of providing for the needs of, you know, certain demographics or certain people living in mm-hmm.

Nicer cities than others. And so. 

[00:53:51] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:52] Ryan Verret: It's, uh, we've been really having a passion to, 'cause we, when marriage and family is provided for and formed, well, it will save the Republic. Mm-hmm. So if you are interested in, in being a part of the solution, this is a huge piece. And so if you go to our website and if you're a parish.

You can, uh, just request a way to review this way. Um, the materials will come in for free. We have a great team that will just help you to discern and understand the opportunity for the discipleship among the engage that we're talking with. So it just, it's called a, a parish review set. And then if you know, if you're an engaged couple and you are looking for.

You know, uh, something that's, that's different than maybe, than what someone else had that you know, and are you looking for a process that's more relational? Then you can find the information on the website as well. And if you're a parish that's kind of overwhelmed and says, I can't do any of this. Well, we have, we have all kinds of solutions for you.

Yeah. So you can just, you know, write to us, you can email us or me at connect@witnesstolove.org. connect@witnesstolove.org. 

[00:55:01] Jim Jansen: Nice. 

[00:55:01] Ryan Verret: And, uh, asking you questions and we'll, we will answer them. And so we've had the capacity now to, to be built, responsive, and, um. To, to take care of whatever you need. We'll be there.

[00:55:12] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And if you're, I mean, if you're thinking about this particularly just for the parish leaders or someone who might be in the, the, know, the kind of the volunteer space helping to coordinate serving as symmetric. You can do, you can do this. They, they will help you do this. Totally. The, the beauty of it, this is not rocket science.

And the, the team that you have, uh, is really helpful. Thank you, Ryan. 

[00:55:34] Ryan Verret: Thank you. 

[00:55:35] Jim Jansen: All right, everybody. You know somebody who needs to hear this conversation. Let the Lord let the Lord show you who, right. Let him put it on, on your heart. Uh, when you're at a safe place, you send this out to your friend. And, uh, follow up.

Use this to start, start a conversation. Uh, again, Ryan, thank you. Thanks for being here. Thanks for, thanks for you and Mary Rose do. 

[00:55:56] Ryan Verret: I really enjoyed it and, uh, look forward to the next time. 

[00:55:59] Jim Jansen: Okay. Awesome. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to Thep Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission.

Stay connected with us by going to equip dot arch omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.