[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody, welcome to the Equipcast. So today I sit down with Christina Semmons. Christina is a veteran, , in so many ways. She's a veteran of the EquipCast. She is a veteran of parish leadership, and she's like a legit veteran-veteran. She served in the armed forces.

She brings all that together in her new book, "Solving the Parish Puzzle," and we just have a great conversation. We talk about leadership, evangelization. We talk about the OCIA numbers and, how they're a hopeful sign but how fragile that is if we're not actually accompanying people all the way through the evangelization cycle.

We talk about holistic formation, waking the dead. Taking those parishioners who've been around forever, maybe they're even halfway engaged, but completing their formation and helping them come to life in Christ.

It's a great conversation. Christina is so practical. The book is amazing. You're gonna love it. Take a listen.

All right. Christina Simmons, welcome to the EquipCast. Wait. Again, welcome back to EquipCast. How you doing?

[00:01:36] Christina Semmens: I'm doing all right. Thanks for having me back, Jim. I mean, that, that's quite courageous on your part to have me back again as a guest. So I commend you for that.

[00:01:45] Jim Jansen: Well, younknow what, though? I mean, we talked about your first book Just Say Yes. Really, on holiness, , on prayer, and you wrote another book. Actually, I mean, from my view, I'm sure it didn't seem to after you, but, like, really quickly. Solving the Parish Puzzle: One Person, One Disciple, and One Leader at a Time. I really like this "book. I mean, I don't know if this is not a conflict of interest, but whatever. I wrote, I wrote one of the endorsements. I really, really appreciate it. You were kind enough to send me an advanced copy. Christina, before we jump in, remind people who you are. 'Cause I love your background and experience that, like, set you up for this conversation. 'Cause you're no slouch academically, but you're not coming at this from a theoretical point of view. You're coming to this topic as literally a veteran. a veteran military service. A veteran. of parish service. Christina, tell everybody about yourself. Who are you again?

[00:02:41] Christina Semmens: So, very simply I'm a convert. I came into the church my, end of my junior year at Marquette university in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

[00:02:50] Jim Jansen: What were you studying?

[00:02:52] Christina Semmens: I double majored in history and theology and then minored in military science because I also had an Army ROTC scholarship.

[00:03:00] Jim Jansen: Right. Of course. Those, those three always go together.

[00:03:03] Christina Semmens: Absolutely. So, so do the great stories of, having to wear your uniform on campus, and I'm taking theology of non-violence, and it happens to be on Tuesday, Thursday when I have to wear my uniform. So that made for fun discussions.

[00:03:17] Jim Jansen: That's awesome. Oh, my gosh, I love it.

[00:03:18] Christina Semmens: I joke and say that the Jesuits kinda corrupted me in the sense of we're to be contemplatives in action.

[00:03:25] Jim Jansen: Right, okay. Corrupted in the best way.

[00:03:28] Christina Semmens: Yeah. No, exactly. And so it always was how am I able to be a person of prayer who is drawing closer to the Lord in everything that I do, trying to orient my life towards Him, and everything revolves around Him, in the process of living in the real world, you know? And how do you do that?

And the, the first challenge, of course, was, you know, as an Army officer, I graduated, was commissioned, went on active duty. I was an air defense officer and had a, a tour in Germany. This also happened to be the time when the first Gulf War, yeah, I'm showing my age, the first Gulf War was happening.

And so we deployed out of Germany, and we went down to Saudi Arabia. And that's something where when you come together as a team with a united mission, that is something that it brands you literally.

And you remember what it was and how it was that you were united together. And I remember, because at this point I'm very very young in my Catholic journey. I was raised Presbyterian, and, so I was a person of faith, except for a, a few, prideful years and where I was declaring I was atheist and agnostic and that kind of thing, and God set me straight pretty quickly.

[00:04:52] Jim Jansen: Hey, I had a brief period there too.

[00:04:54] Christina Semmens: Well, I think we all do. If we truly come to believe, I think you have to almost. But it was something of where I, I just kind of pondered in passing why when saving souls is so much more important, why aren't we on fire and with an urgency to do the same thing? And so that was something that was always kind of lingering in the back of my mind a little bit as I came off of active duty after the first Gulf War, came back.

This is the same time period when we're also doing a drawdown in Germany because Germany reunited and they're like, "Hey, get out. We don't want you here anymore." So those of us who had been in, in--

[00:05:39] Jim Jansen: It is time for you to leave.

[00:05:41] Christina Semmens: Oh, see? Yeah.

[00:05:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:05:43] Christina Semmens: Yeah. And so--

[00:05:44] Jim Jansen:  Alvederzane.

[00:05:44] Christina Semmens: I, came back and came off of active duty and I got my master's degree in history and began teaching social studies. And I also was involved in my parish, and life, was happening as it does when you're in your 20s. And subsequently I ended up meeting my husband. I didn't know that I had met my husband and it was, 'cause he actually, I met him he was the commander at Fort Bliss for the combined arms tactics and doctrine team there. So pretty much he was the equivalent of the principal for all the education for the officers, as well as the non-commissioned officers at Fort Bliss for the entire Air Defense Artillery branch.

And so very simply I h- did not realize it, but I had been formed from the very beginning with mission first, take care of your people, this is urgent, you need to do this because lives are at stake. And that, that was just the mentality from the beginning. But he was in charge there. He then later became my brigade commander, and actually deployed with him to, to Saudi Arabia.

He, he subsequently has passed God rest his soul, after a battle with lung cancer. But the dedication that I have in this book is in memory of my husband, Paul Semmens. The most important lessons of leadership I learned from you living out what I share in this book. And sometimes it sounds sentimental, but it was a reality of where I saw it being modeled, and then I was also held to the standard of you need to live this out.

And I think that's something that sometimes, especially when we step into church space, we fail to do that. We fail to hold one another accountable for living it out. And if we aren't, it's like, "Oh, well, that's Father's job," or, "That's the professional lay minister, the staff person's job, or somebody else's." And it's like, no, every single one of us, by virtue of our baptism, are called to be priest, prophet, and king. And king is leader. And I don't care how many people are like, "Oh, I'm not a leader." Yes, you are. Just in whatever context you're in.

[00:08:06] Jim Jansen: Right. And for better or for worse, you're leading somebody somewhere.

[00:08:10] Christina Semmens: Yep. exactly.

[00:08:11] Jim Jansen: Let's try and make it helpful. Yeah. Christina, I think that's what distinguishes this book in my mind, in that, I mean, I don't think we have nearly enough books on parish renewal. 'Cause you know, my passion is for parish renewal, for kind of bringing the New evangelization to life. And the fact is, 90% of Catholics are having 90% of their exposure to the church in their parish, for better or for worse. And, sometimes it's not for the better. And, and you come to this question, this challenge, you know, solving the parish, puzzle, you come to it with a leadership experience in the military, in academics, and of course, serving in parishes.

But I can really relate to, just what you shared at the beginning there. I found myself somewhat scandalized by the lack of attention and effort and excellence that often goes towards the most important mission. I mean, I get it. When your life is on the line, it has a way of sobering you and getting your attention, but eternal life is on the line in the work of the church. And yet sometimes you would, not, not get , the impression at all that we have an awareness of our mission, that we care, that, we recognize that it's bigger than what I can do individually, that I have to have a team with me.

So we're gonna dive into all of that, but disclaimer here. This feels like a dumb question to me, but I think this matters. Christina, Start off by giving us a little bit of background on the state of parish. Life today, and if I can justify my own question, cause everybody's like, "Well, I live in a parish. Everybody's in a parish." Yeah, but one, we have, we only have the experience of our own parish, and two, sometimes because we're swimming in that water and we're so used to it, we don't see the bigger picture and the challenge that is presented to parish life today. Just lay that out just a little bit.

[00:10:12] Christina Semmens: Yeah, and I think in one way, having been in the military and then because of specifically my husband's work, because he was a defense contractor and we moved several times. But we also traveled, both of us, and it wasn't like we're traveling for fun, fun, but rather it was just a matter of we had exposure to all sorts of different parishes.

[00:10:34] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, you saw the church around the world and around the country. I mean, just off the top of your head, I don't, I don't mean to put you on the spot, how many parishes would you say you've attended mass in over the years? Even if it's just, like, once a visit to say nothing of the times where you actually had a deployment and stayed.

[00:10:52] Christina Semmens: Uh, I mean, honestly, I know it's it's, it's probably several hundred easily. And that's--

[00:10:58] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:10:59] Christina Semmens: By virtue of, the, the son has a golf tournament over a weekend and we gotta go someplace else. But I--

[00:11:06] Jim Jansen: all, the things. Yeah. Military travel, contracting, but, but, but that's hu- And then now your own, your own work in ministry, but, like, that's huge. That's not common. I mean, most of us get two or three parishes in our lifetime maybe. So to have exposure to several hundred, what have you seen? like, what are the patterns, the common challenges? "

[00:11:26] Christina Semmens: You almost immediately sense when a parish is a community. And, and I'm talking the good and the bad, because you can walk into a parish and it's very obvious that it's a very, closed community, everybody knows each other, and you're not welcome. It's like, You're there, but we're tolerating you."

And then you can go to a different parish, and it is a community that is joyfully welcoming people, and not in a fake way, but rather it's in a real, "Hey, what brought you here today?" And, "Oh, okay," and they actually have a conversation, they're actually listening, and they actually see and come to know you in what little way you're able to for however long you might be there. And those make an impression because those people are actually being Christ.

[00:12:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it just start- it starts just like, "Hello, what's your name?" Right? I mean, like, yeah. That's first part of the gospel.

[00:12:30] Christina Semmens: Yeah, even if you don't, ask a name, to see someone and to acknowledge them. I mean, we run into this all the time in a larger city, for example. You're walking down the street and people just avoid eye contact. You wanna freak people out, go in an elevator and look at people.

[00:12:49] Jim Jansen: That's true. True.

[00:12:53] Christina Semmens: But, it- but it's a beautiful way to be able to acknowledge the dignity of the person who's there just by looking them in the eye and nodding. You don't even have to say anything. But that in itself is, you're welcome. So, that experience, but I always would pick up a bulletin for the simple reason of what's supposedly going on here?

[00:13:20] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:20] Christina Semmens: And it was always fascinating to read what it was that was being prioritized and emphasized, and you could see kind of like what ministries, what groups were kind of like running the parish, you might say.

So it just gives you insight, but then it also gives you ideas. I still remember going to a parish out in Colorado and it was a part of the mass, but they called up their young altar servers who had just completed their next step in their formation. And it turns out that this parish had developed a, an extensive formative experience for anyone who was going to be an altar server, and then also, gosh, I've forgotten now, but they also had, it w- oh, Veronica. It, so they had for the women, for the young ladies, it was the Saint Veronica Society in which they were being formed so that then they could be caring for the linens and different things. And it, it wasn't sexist, rather it was, "Here is how women and men throughout our history have served church, and here you can learn and you can continue to do the same." And I just was struck by, wow, what a beautiful way to do that for young people who normally just sit there.

[00:14:43] Jim Jansen: Right, and more than just this one-off, " like, Hey, okay, come on a Saturday. We promise it'll only take an hour, and then you're done." There was this ongoing investment.

[00:14:52] Christina Semmens: Yeah.

[00:14:52] Jim Jansen: Christine, in some ways we're already kind of talking about, okay, some of the pieces, right? There's, like, an ongoing formation, you know, hospitality. You set up the book, Solving The Parish Puzzle. The cover has these puzzle pieces. You, lead with this metaphor that feels really appropriate because the experience of having served on several parish leadership teams and being a part of that, it can feel like you're trying to put together a puzzle. And, and and in some ways you're, you're trying to move all the pieces there at the same time. I mean, trying to like get all these pieces together it is I think, a, a very apt metaphor for how it can feel trying to renew a parish, trying to bring the elements together. Get us started here. What are the pieces of the puzzle?

[00:15:41] Christina Semmens: Well, I mean, very simply, the first, and I call it the cornerstone is evangelization. And a part of evangelization is the cycle of evangelization.

[00:15:54] Jim Jansen: Say more. I mean, you had me at hello, but say more.

[00:15:58] Christina Semmens: So many people are familiar with evangelization in the context of, oh, we're to go and proclaim the good news and share the gospel. But the fact is, is that there's an actual cycle which happens, and it's not just with those who haven't heard the good news. We're constantly encountering others, engaging with them, and then we are to continue walking with them, accompanying them, and mentoring. So encounter, engage accompany and mentor.

And many times people will be kind of shying away from, you know, so for example, people love to tell the story, and it's wonderful, about how they shared about their faith with someone, and they came to faith, and then eventually they became Catholic. And everyone loves that story.

I always like to be a fly in the ointment, in which I go, "That's awesome. So how is it that you and Bob, how are you still accompanying and mentoring him?" And they'll be like, "What? He's Catholic. What,

[00:17:01] Jim Jansen: Yeah, he came into the church two years ago. I haven't talked to him since then.

[00:17:04] Christina Semmens: Exactly. But, but the reality is, is that we have that responsibility and obligation. Christ brought this person into our life for a reason, and it wasn't just to bring him into the church so that he can receive the sacraments. You just got him to the starting line there. I mean, literally, you got him to the starting line, and now he needs someone to be able to continue journeying with.

And it could be that, hey, his background, maybe he has a master's in theology kind of thing, right? But you still have something to share with Bob in the course of you're farther along in your Catholic experience. It's not all about head knowledge, but rather it's about lived experience. And I think so often, and this is not knocking any, quote, "new converts" or anything like that, we need everybody, okay? But I think far too often we imbue far too much responsibility upon those who are new fruit.

[00:18:09] Jim Jansen: Oh, Christina, I could not agree more. In fact, I was just talking with somebody about this today. Nationally there's been kind of a hubbub about the, the OCIA numbers from this last Easter, which are fantastic. I mean, it's not probably perfectly universal, but in many, many parishes and dioceses, the numbers have been up. A couple of big things are missed by that. One, it's like they're up and they might be close to the 2019 numbers, so, like, they're not, like, crazy up they're just up a little bit. So, like we like the direction, but we're not breaking big records yet.

The other thing, though, is someone coming into the church is no guarantee that they're going to stay and that they're going to grow. And, and in fact, the data for the last, few decades is that they often don't stay and they often don't grow. And you're talking about this vision for evangelization that is not just, I love it, right, encounter, engage, accompany, mentor. We're not just getting them into the door, we're actually walking with them through the process of growing, maturing, and eventually taking on their own mission.

[00:19:15] Christina Semmens: And and that brings up the next piece, which is holistic formation.

[00:19:19] Jim Jansen: So that's number two, right? So piece number one is evangelization. Number two is holistic formation.

[00:19:23] Christina Semmens: Mm-hmm, yep. And so holistic formation, this is nothing new. John paul II is the one who kind of gave us these four pieces, which many people might have heard of, which is the human, the intellectual, the spiritual, and the, apostolic, the pastoral. And the fact is is that most times, for example, we step into a ministry, how many of us have received human, spiritual, or intellectual formation associated with whatever ministry we're stepping into?

Most of us are just told, "This is what you do," and then it's presumed that you're taking care of your own spiritual formation, that you're taking care of your own intellectual formation, and that, that you're a well-formed human being.

I don't know about you, but I'm 58, and I still need someone to say, Christina, you probably could back off a little bit with your direct tone and just kind of ease back a little bit." I, I mean, we continuously need to grow in our capacity to relate with one another, you know? So it's, to presume that people are good to go, that they know how to communicate, they know how to be direct, they know how to handle conflict, they know...

[00:20:37] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:37] Christina Semmens: No!

[00:20:39] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, can you imagine if like, okay, someone says yes to being a part of the choir, and as a part of that, there's this human formation, right? Where you're expected to be on time, and we're gonna call you out if you're not on time," and they're actually starting to learn about the liturgy, learn what the church says about liturgical music. They're taught how to pray as part of their service. They- they're taught how to let that gift actually be a service of evangelization, that the pastoral side of it. Like again, you could do that with a choir member. You could do that with someone who's serving on the pastoral council, on and on and on.

Like, man, what if we formed people? And so, and then the volunteers would be rather than, "Hey, I got to serve in this role for a period of time," they would speak of it as a privilege and a joy rather than, "Yeah, I did my time. It's your, it's your turn to be on the pastoral council."

[00:21:33] Christina Semmens: Yeah. But it's only through that kind of formation that then we have fully formed disciples who then are able to encounter, engage, accompany, and mentor. And it's not just, "Hey, go and find someone else to sing in the choir," rather it's, "Go and befriend someone kind of taking the Cursillo, methodology. Make a friend, be a friend, bring that friend to Christ. Same, same thing we should be doing on a human level that we should be doing within our communities for anything that we do. It shouldn't be just, "Hey, come do this thing," rather, "Hey, come hang out with me, and I love singing, and you love singing. How about we do this together?"

[00:22:17] Jim Jansen: Christine, I think you're connecting the dots. I hope people are, like, catching this because, most of the listeners of the EquipCast are like, "yeah, yeah, yeah, I love evangelization. I'm on mission." And sometimes we forget that when we reach out to someone, we have, like, a special event, like a mission moment, a parish mission, whatever, retreat, that that's only part of this larger process of walking with people, the engaging, the accompaniment, mentoring. It's only often a portion of the holistic formation. You know, maybe the retreat or the class or whatever it was is dealing with just a part of it. But when you have a much broader view of what you're trying to do in evangelization rather than just the moment or the event or the thing, program that you ran, now all of the pain points like, "gosh, like, I've been doing this and I'm getting tired and nobody else is stepping up to help me, and, and I feel like I'm all alone," some of those things start to get fixed because when you attend to the full process, you're completing people's formation and you're raising up other laborers to join you.

[00:23:21] Christina Semmens: Yeah. And, and that's why I talk about holistic CPR. I say CPR just because I use the analogy in the book about the walking dead. And how many of us have zombies in our parishes? And these can even be well-serving zombies. They could be on every committee, but are they truly alive with the joy and peace and love of Christ?

Or are they just doing it because they think they should? But holistic CPR is that idea of holistic formation, but you do it with customized formation. So in other words, what is it that this person particularly needs? And then personalized accountability, because not everybody responds to a text or an email.

Some people need a phone call, or they need to be met in person. You need to know, and the only way you know that is if in our relationship. You need to be in relationship with people. And I'd say that is probably the biggest challenge that we have in our, in, in almost all parishes, but especially in our parishes today is people don't want to have a relationship. They'd rather just show up, do whatever it is, and then they want to go on about their life, and it's like that's not a life of Christ.

[00:24:39] Jim Jansen: Right. Well, the community life, community is not an optional part of, of like being a christian. And God bless ecclesial movements and other associations that people can find, but for the most part, that's what our parishes are supposed to be providing, a place where you've got this friend, and the friend's like, "Hey, can I just invite you to this new thing or just gently challenge you we're gonna rub some of those, those rough, rough edges off you. But yeah, you can't do it without community. You can't do it? Without a real relationship. Christina, man, I love that The Walking Dead metaphor. How do you wake up the walking dead?

[00:25:19] Christina Semmens: You engage. How did Jesus do it? He walked the streets, he encountered people, he engaged with them, came to know them, accompanied them and then mentored them and sent them out on their way.

And it's just like we keep trying to reinvent the wheel, and I tell everyone, "This book is not about a program." Gosh, I hate programs. Programs have a place. They have a place, but you need to know what place it has.

[00:25:46] Jim Jansen: Yes. Yeah, well, and yeah, I mean, tools are only as good as the carpenter or the craftsman who knows how to use them.

All right. Let's pause here for a quick break to share a word from our sponsor, and then we'll jump right back in.

True parish renewal requires more than just a new program. It requires a strategic shift. The team and I at Anchor Consulting come alongside diocesan and parish leaders with practical frameworks to train your staff and realign your structures for growth. Discover how we can help you leave your ministry better than you found it. Find us at everydayevangelization.org. Let's head back to the conversation.

[00:26:26] Jim Jansen: Okay, Christina, so we've got evangelization as a cornerstone, holistic formation. What else?

[00:26:33] Christina Semmens: Holistic CPR is its own puzzle piece, 'cause that's, that's putting it together. Seeking best practices, this is, you know, to use secular term, a growth mindset. There used to be a joke with one of our associates who was in, in our parish, and he used to joke about the fact of when Christina asks you why it is you're doing something, do not respond with, "Because we've always done it this way." it it's like do not respond that way. But it, it's, it's the thing of where it's like that doesn't mean we embrace change for its own sake, but rather we seek what is the best way for us to do things now, and that's going to shift because of the people that we have doing the work.

[00:27:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah. people, new mission field, new circumstances. I mean, just the, the cultural reality that we find ourselves in today.

[00:27:27] Christina Semmens: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So if we're not continuously seeking to identify and assess, and assessment is one of those pieces of the puzzle. I talk about it last, but it has to be a part of the process. But if we're not assessing, is this the best way for us to be doing stuff right now with the people that we have and the circumstances that we face, then we're gonna fall into that, "Oh, we've always done it that way."

And it, it's hard because it takes a courageous courageous position of where you're going, "All right, Lord, I'm dragging," and it takes effort to do something new, and that's usually why we don't. But then that brings me back to the fact of if you're too tired to embrace the thing that you know you need to do, then something else is broken.

[00:28:18] Jim Jansen: Oh my goodness. Okay, say that again. That, that's like a mic drop moment.

[00:28:25] Christina Semmens: Let's see if I can remember it again. Holy Spirit, hello. So if we are too tired to be able to embrace the thing that we know we need to do, then that is indicative that something else is broken somewhere else. Because we never should find ourselves at a, at a place where we're like, "Oh, I'm just too tired. I ju- no, we'll, we'll do it, maybe we'll do it next year."

[00:28:52] Jim Jansen: Right. Well, even when you say it's like, "Okay, I'm too tired to do the next right thing," it's like, ah. But that's... But I think, I mean, I think there's a lot of people listening who are like, "Oh, crap." Like, that kinda sounds like me." Because we've all been there from time to time.

Christina, I wanna... I think there's a, when- th-there's a a, danger or maybe a fear, Of some people listening as they, as they think about best practices. The pursuit of best practices can easily get twisted into a pursuit of a silver bullet.

[00:29:29] Christina Semmens: Oh, right.

[00:29:30] Jim Jansen: How do you distinguish between a best practice that fits me, that fits our parish, and this kind of, I wanna pursue this best practice ''cause I just need something quick and easy 'cause I'm not actually able to do the work to find the right solution for me and for this community? How do you distinguish, how do you tell the difference?

[00:29:53] Christina Semmens: When you're looking for whatever it is that you're looking to adopt as the solution, Hey, if we do this, then we're done," then you probably have the wrong mindset.

[00:30:04] Jim Jansen: That's so good. Say more about that. But I've, but I've like, I think I know what you mean.

[00:30:08] Christina Semmens: Yeah. So, if, for example, you're trying to figure out better ways to communicate on a, like text, you know, and you, and you do the research and you decide FlockNote we're gonna use this. And you've been struggling with trying to communicate and get in touch with people, that kind of thing, and you're like, "Okay, once we have FlockNote, we'll be good."

Wrong attitude because even FlockNote... Yeah, because even FlockNote has its limitations. Everything has its limitations. So it's not the tool that's going to fix it, rather it's how you implement the tool. And I, I'm going back to your quote, what you just said, hey, the master craftsman, the tools are only as good as the craftsman. And so often what we want is we want the Staples Easy Button, hit the Easy Button, and then, and then we're done. But it's hard work to have the conversations to really assess, is this what we actually need?

[00:31:10] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:11] Christina Semmens: Or, is this just gonna make my life easier so I think that I've solved the problem, when you didn't talk to anybody. So again, it's about relationship, it's about listening, it's about actually addressing the needs, not what we perceive are the needs, but what are actual needs, and you can't get that if you're not talking to people. And then you discern, and sometimes that discernment means that you don't go with your choice, but you go with something else.

And, that's hard, but into that process is something that we, want, you know, bec- again, it takes effort to be able to do any kind of new anything. And so we just get tired and we're just like, "Oh, well this'll fix it. This'll make sure these people don't bother me anymore about X."

And because we just want it off our to-do list, and that's just the, it's the wrong mentality for us to have. Rather, it should be an acceptance of, hey, this is so important, i.e. we're talking communications, that's another puzzle piece, communication. This is so important that I know I'm going to have to address it again, but I want to be able to position myself the best that I can so that when we come back to address it, we're positioned in a place where it's going to be the least amount of pain--

[00:32:30] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm.

[00:32:31] Christina Semmens: in order to continue.

[00:32:32] Jim Jansen: That's so good. I, again, so you're talking about communication. Like, I feel like I've heard that. I've heard leaders say "Yeah, but we already said that." It's like, y-y-yes, but, I mean, but but that doesn't mean they heard it. That doesn't mean they don't need to hear it again. I mean, like vision leaks communication, understanding leaks, right?

We are Earthen vessels, And so even if at one time we knew why we were doing that thing or we were aware of the parish's mission direction, chances are it's gonna seep out of us. so we need to, just as one example, we need to keep communicating again and again and again and again.

[00:33:12] Christina Semmens: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and as leaders, it does get tiring because you're like, "Oh my gosh, how many times do I have to, say this?" But then I'm gonna say, all you parents out there, do you get tired of telling your kids not to walk across the street without looking both ways? No, it's 'cause it's keeping them safe and you're entrusted with their wellbeing.

But in, in that way, as a leader, we just need to realize we constantly need to be, as you said, mission leaks, vision leaks, execution leaks. But that's why we constantly are communicating and sharing information. There is no such thing as privileged information when it comes to operations, operations of parish.

There is no privileged communications. Process, that, I mean, that's where transparency should be. Process is not privileged communications. Now, the ministry, the actual engagement with someone and what's going on in, in personal lives and stuff, absolutely. But the process of how you're going to engage with that person, what's the process that they're gonna go through as they're handling things, you should be able to tell people what's going on.

[00:34:25] Jim Jansen: Right. Everybody should know this is how we handle, these challenging circumstances. Or even more mundane, this is how you actually register for a room or or, or, or get something in the parish flock note or bulletin.

Christine, I wanna... We were talking a little bit before we turned on, on the mic. I mean, just since we're on the topic o-of communication, we were talking about, you know, that, that communication is one of those things that like, everybody knows they need and everybody does something, but it's almost always incomplete. Can you just kinda like lay out some of those like communication blind spots that, that often plague our efforts in parishes?

[00:35:07] Christina Semmens: Well, it goes back to, and I'm gonna jump back one puzzle piece. It goes back to interpersonal relationships. And so where do relationships break down in our community? Usually it's communication related, and usually it has to do with the fact of I just presumed or assumed something that you did or didn't do and why you did or didn't do it.

And it's because we don't ask the question, and partially it's because most of the time, and this is not all the time, but most of the time it has to do with fear. It has to do with one, I'm afraid to ask the question because I don't want it to be confirmed that what I think is what's going on, okay?

Or I'm afraid of looking like an idiot by asking this person, so it becomes my pride, I, I should know, kind of thing., But again, it's fear, so we don't ask. And we joke with our kids in catechesis class or anywhere where we say, "Hey, there's no dumb question." But when we're in community, there seems to be a lot of dumb questions that, or at least people don't want to be judged.

But it goes back to all of those fear-based things. And if we're in relationship with one another, and Jim, I presume the best of you, and you presume the best of me, then if I come and say, "Hey when you went and did that thing it kind of bothered me and I just wanted to follow up to ask why,"

Could you say why it was that you did that or why you didn't call me and it could have been very simple as, "Oh my gosh, I got a new phone. I had to recreate the text group and I, I left you off." You know, but what do we do? Because we're afraid to find out, oh, I'm no longer on the committee, or I offended them, who knows?

[00:37:04] Jim Jansen: yeah. Th-this, this story running in your head, "They hate me, they hate me, they hate me, they must hate me." Rather than have that confirmed, we allow ourselves to kinda live in the lie and just be off the email list, which was an accident from the very beginning.

[00:37:20] Christina Semmens: And you just said the right word, lie. It, 'Cause who's the father of lies? 'Cause Satan is the one who is doing that because Satan is in charge of all division, disunity, discouragement, all of those things that you run into in community. Why? Because we believe the lies, and we don't have the courage. I mean, I laugh because, like, how many times are we told, "Be not afraid"? how many times? Do not fear. Be not afraid. But yet we walk around in fear half the time. But communication will get resolved with that.

[00:37:58] Jim Jansen: Yeah. When we step up, and even I remember we were talking a little bit about mass communication, and praise God, a lot of parishes are investing in websites or a better layout for the bulletin. It's actually, like, pleasant to read rather than, like, eight-point font. It's easier to read. It's, like, better layout, More, more interesting. Talk about, i-if you would, the necessity of not just one-way communication, a beautiful website, a beautiful bulletin. Talk about two-way communication.

[00:38:30] Christina Semmens: Yeah, and, and two-way communication I think is probably one of the more difficult things, especially within our parish structures, how, how we are structured, where we have a very much top-down idea. It's one of the things I know like in my diocese, synodality is a dirty word. 'Cause people misunderstand what it is.

[00:38:50] Jim Jansen: And, granted, it just doesn't roll off the tongue, and depending on, you know, on where you c- where you, where you come from, you may have a a struggle with the people or groups that first kinda introduce you to it. But at the heart, it's listening. It's good communication.

[00:39:06] Christina Semmens: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so i- if you think about it, collaboration, if we were to say we're getting together for collaboration d- you know, and discussions, how many people would have a problem? No one. They'd be like, Oh yeah, we need to collaborate more."

[00:39:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, that one guy would, but he was gonna be alone anyway, so... Yeah.

[00:39:28] Christina Semmens: Good point. But the, but the idea of being open, because any time that you're open to getting feedback, because that's exactly what we're talking about, any time you're open to getting feedback, you're gonna get the 10% who are never going to be happy.

[00:39:46] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:46] Christina Semmens: Never. Doesn't matter what you do. You could design it exactly how they said to design it, you do it, and then they're like, "Well, you didn't do th-," and it's just like you didn't say to do that. Anyway, so you have to just set aside, hey, 10% it's, it's gonna be complaints.

[00:40:04] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:05] Christina Semmens: But then when people see that they can contribute and their ideas actually are being looked at and then implemented, wow, talk about empowerment.

[00:40:19] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:20] Christina Semmens: So, I'll use a quick example. But the idea of putting together like a, a listening group.

Now, any pastors out there who are listening to this, you're probably gonna go, "Oh no, I can't do this." Just, just listen and then, then see where it goes. But to just randomly ask parishioners, "Hey, would, would you mind coming to just a 10-minute meeting?" And it could be right, like right after mass.

And I know that sometimes that doesn't work or whatever, but you can figure it out. And it's like, "Hey, I'd just like your feedback on something." Now, a lot of people will be like, "No, I'm too busy," or whatever, but the people who are open to it, but random people, sit them down and just say, "What is the one thing that you think we're doing well?

What's the one thing that you think we need to do better? And where are we totally missing the boat on something we could be doing as a community?"

And you get that. And then, you take it and you go to your staff but you pray with it. And then you determine, "Oh my goodness, what they were saying about, the having a parking guide, between these two masses at this one point rather than where we normally have, that, that would actually be brilliant."

And then you go ahead and you make that shift in that, in that case, for example. And then you can very simply just say, "Hey, thanks again, for those of you who are a part of my little session. We made a couple of changes, and you'll probably notice what they are," and number one, they'll now come back to you and go, "Oh, what, what did you do?"

"Oh, well, we moved the parking attendant." And even the person who it wasn't their idea is going to be a part of that process, and they're gonna go, "Hey, Father paid attention, and then I'm able to make a difference."

[00:42:19] Jim Jansen: Right. They can see that, yeah, that, like feedback matters, that, that there is a listening posture. I mean, yeah, the, like, the listening is so powerful for so many reasons, but the two that I think are like, immediate, like, game changers is one, it surfaces leaders. like leaders, good leaders don't just insert themselves. They, they wait to be asked. they, they want That they want... to know that their contribution is welcome, That they're gonna be heard.

And so putting yourself in a listening posture tends to surface leaders That you maybe didn't know that were there. And then the other thing it does something to us is it creates empathy. Like when we really listen, we begin to hear other people's needs, their hopes, their dreams, their pain, and it changes us. I I know very few, pastoral leaders, clergy, staff, whatever, whose hearts aren't moved with compassion when they encounter the hopes and dreams and fears and pains of their people. And it, and it's that encounter that sparks love, and understanding, which is, like, it's pretty hard to evangelize somebody that you don't love someone that you don't understand. So it does so much in us when we actually, Have started to do this, this two-way communication.

[00:43:42] Christina Semmens: Yeah. But that's just one example of how you can do it. Having a suggestion box, that's another way that you could do that without having to sit down with people. Not ideal because you're missing the interpersonal contact, but it's something that, you know, that can be done.

This is where having listening sessions as just part of the process of how you go about doing strategic planning and how, how you're, you know, doing, those kind of, of things so that especially assessment is a natural time to have listening sessions with people. Because they're in a place of where it's like you're asking me to assess. Instead of just handing people a survey or having them do a QR code and fill out a survey instead say, "Who ha- who has 15 minutes?

I want it," you know, or half an hour or an hour. It's amazing. As you said, it raises up leaders, but what it does is that it empowers responsibility and accountability within the community itself.

[00:44:43] Jim Jansen: Christina, We're not gonna cover every piece here, right? So, like, there's 12. Buy the book. They're all in the book. But Christina, I just wanna zoom in on piece number eight, coaching and leadership, 'cause, my, team and I are really, deep into serving as coaches and then equipping parish and diocesan leaders to be coaches, to come alongside people, to serve them as leaders. Talk a little bit about what does, coaching leadership look like in a parish context?

[00:45:18] Christina Semmens: It's actually a lot simpler than we make it out to be. We tend to make it far more complex. I actually and I share it in, in the book but this came from a presentation Divine Renovation had a parish come and, and talk about volunteer recruitment. You know, process kind of thing.

And there were four things that I was just like, "This is just absolutely brilliant," because they encapsulated what it was that I had experienced within the military and within education and within subsequent places where I had to go from being an apprentice to, being a full-fledged leader.

And it's four steps. First one is, is that the invitation, of course, someone raises their hand and says, "Yeah," I'd like to be a catechist." And it's like, "Great. How about you come, next Sunday or whenever?"

And see, this is also the open door of where it's not just, "Hey, we're looking for catechists this summer." Rather, it's any time somebody raises their hand, you say, "Great. Come this next Sunday or, or Wednesday," whenever your, catechesis classes are, "and you can come, and you can shadow with Mrs. Lopez."

And it's something of where when you have this structure, everyone is open to having someone show up in order to just shadow. They're not uncomfortable with someone sitting in their classroom and watching. That's not a big deal because it's just a, "Oh, this is someone from the parish and they are interested in how are we doing catechesis."

I, as a catechist, should be proud of how it is that we're doing catechesis, and I would want the rest of the parish to know how we're doing.

[00:46:54] Jim Jansen: I love Mrs. Lopez. I want everybody to do it like she does. I mean, like themselves. But like, yeah, how cool is it to like, to, to take someone who is expressing a desire to serve and giving them an opportunity to learn, and giving someone who's done it, been around, giving them an opportunity to share and mentor coach someone into it.

[00:47:16] Christina Semmens: Right. So, so the first time they come, they just watch. They don't do anything. They just watch. You're here, and so it's such a low bar. It's like, can you sit in a chair?

[00:47:28] Jim Jansen: Right. Watch Mrs Watch Mrs. Lopez.

[00:47:30] Christina Semmens: Yeah exactly. So the next time, so then it's like, "Oh yeah, I think I might be able to help with that." "Great. Next time you can come and Mrs. Lopez, she'll give you something to do." And so then Mrs. Lopez will then give her something to do. It might be something as simple as, "I want you to take the roll.

And as you do, I want you to try and at the end of class, a little challenge for you, I want you to try and remember two of the kids' names by the end of class."

But they go and they do the roll. And then, at the end, then it's a matter of, "Hey, do you have anything to say" and, and you let them know this ahead of time "Is there any two kids that you wanna kinda give a shout-out, to?" And what happens is, is that then even though you're taking roll, and it seems like it's an inconsequential activity, what you come to see is, is that this is how you come to know the kids because then you're associating their names with them in class.

And I can tell you, having been a teacher, there's going to be one or two kids that are gonna just stand out immediately, and it's like, "Yeah, Jessica, she had every answer. She was always raising her hand. She was very enthusiastic. And Johnny, I mean, let me tell you, I was so touched when his buddy didn't seem to be feeling well and he checked on him and then he raised his hand and said, 'Hey, can I take such and so, you know, to the bathroom because he's not feeling well?'"

And it's just like shout-out. You know? You're raising up. And you can do that a few, a few times until they are comfortable with, "Yeah, let, let, let me give it a shot." And then Mrs. Lopez says, "Great. I'm gonna let you kind of lead the lesson. I'll take care of the administration stuff for you so you can just focus on the lesson." So the next time they come, they take care of the lesson, all the administrative stuff. Mrs. Lopez is there, she's supportive, she's able to be there. If something comes up, she's able to answer a question, so our, our perspective new catechist is not swimming in the deep end all on their own with 16 kids, that they don't necessarily have a relationship with yet. And then afterwards, then it's like, "Okay Mrs. Lopez is like, "How'd it go? What do you think we can do better?" You continue to do that.

You swap off, you work, you kind of team teach a little bit. And then, and this is what I always tell people, then after a year of doing this process, you ask them, "Are you ready, do you think you are ready at this point in order to step into a classroom and take lead?"

And even then, even then, you still assign them with a support person.

So in other words, they're still team teaching, but they now have kind of the lead. So Mrs. Lopez, when we met her, she was okay on her own because she had, she was an experienced teacher. But this is how, we need to do this for everything, every volunteer, that we have.

[00:50:25] Jim Jansen: And I mean, it just marvelous. Like, gosh, like when you do this, the experience of like, oh my gosh, like the first year was just crazy and I never wanna do that again. Like, you create people who are capable of serving in the role for a significant period of time and they actually make it attractive 'cause they're having fun.

They're enjoying it. It's not this like kinda grueling, Experience for them because someone's walked with them, someone's helped them.

[00:50:52] Christina Semmens: But, piece, we're not done. So even though they're now, now, now that they're like a lead teacher, okay, you still have Mrs. Lopez come in periodically, and she will just sit, and she will then give feedback, and she also will check in and, w- and say, Hey, is there anything that you need? Do you need any help with anything?" So there's still the relationship, there's still mentoring that's going on, there's still accompaniment that's going on, and it's not like again, "Oh, okay, you're a full-fledged, go ahead,"

But what happens is, is that so often we as larger leaders, so I'm talking like your DRE, okay, they're so strapped and having to do so many things that they don't have the bandwidth to be able to do something what I just described.

[00:51:43] Jim Jansen: Yeah.

[00:51:44] Christina Semmens: In other words, they wouldn't be able to free Mrs. Lopez to go and to sit in a class because they teach at the same time. They'd be like, "Well, how can I do that?" And it's like this is where you continuously are getting a stable of good substitutes, people that are willing to come in occasionally, and then you're able to alert them, "Hey, Mrs. Lopez is gonna go down, the hallway.

Would you be able to come and be able to take care of her class just one day?" And I mean, and people are willing to make those kind of commitments.

[00:52:14] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Christina, there's, there's so much in this. It's so full of kind of practical wisdom. Again, I think that's maybe... I feel like I can see kind of the, the military genius and your own experience showing up in this.

Christina, I wanna give, like, for those who are like, ah, they're feeling the, the call here. They want to do this, but some of the things you said are striking, you know, too close to home in the best ways where they're like, "Oh man, I feel like I am just too tired to try and do, something new, to implement a best practice." What would you say to them?

[00:52:56] Christina Semmens: First, everything begins with prayer. The Lord doesn't give us anything that He will not sustain us in, that He is not going to be with us. So He's placed this desire on your heart already. If you have this desire and you're like, "Oh, I'd really like to do this, but I don't know how," guess what? Jesus knows how.

So you begin with Him. So spend time with Him and say, "Lord, You know this desire on my heart. I want to come closer to You and to serve You better and I'm just feeling burned out."

And I mean, that's a whole different discussion of discernment, , to begin with. But begin with Him. So begin with prayer. The next is actually assess what is it that you need to work most on.

[00:53:44] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:45] Christina Semmens: You can go to the Catholic Leadership Puzzle, dot com, and there's a little assessment.And even thoug h it's talking about in the context of, like, your community, the fact is, is that you can do this within whatever ministry, whatever it is that you're responsible for, you can do it for, for that.

[00:54:02] Jim Jansen: Can you give that address again? Is it Catholic Leadership Puzzle?

[00:54:05] Christina Semmens: Yeah, thecatholicleadershippuzzle.com

[00:54:09] Jim Jansen: Nice. We will link to that in the show notes.

[00:54:12] Christina Semmens: Yeah. And actually in the back of the book I talk about where to start. And it is the Catholic Leadership Puzzle dot com. And that's where the inventory is. And then also the next step after that is, i- there's a vision exercise for you to, again, take it to prayer and to what is it that I most desire?

What is it that I believe God desires for this community? And then, what's gonna make this place feel like home.

[00:54:44] Jim Jansen: Christine, as you say this, I feel like the metaphor is evolving in my mind, right? Rather than like this like stressful, awful, overwhelming, 500,000-piece p-puzzle, it's like, no, actually, like puzzles are, are... can be things that we do with friends, right? that that we're- they're gathered around. And imagine like, all right, I'm gonna work on this puzzle with Jesus, and, and we're gonna do this together. and if He's inspired this desire in me, He surely is going to give me the grace to be able to bring, maybe not alone, but to be able to bring some of it to fruition

[00:55:24] Christina Semmens: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he will bring the people. He will raise up the other people who have the similar desire in order to do the same thing. Again, we are afraid to share our dreams and hopes within our community. What we thinking?

[00:55:43] Jim Jansen: No, I know. I, I'd have... yes. I mean, that rings so true of my own experience just, in my own parish. I had to pray, I forgot. It's like, oh, I, had to really pray that the Lord would show me the others that he that, that he had stirred a similar desire in, and they, and, and then to, to bring me together with those. but he did. When I began to ask him, he showed me people who had the same desire, and he brought us together brought us onto a team together. It was really, really beautiful. But when I was trying to do it all by myself, it wasn't all that fun.

[00:56:18] Christina Semmens: No, a- and it never will be.

[00:56:20] Jim Jansen: Christina, how can people get ahold of you? We're gonna link, To thecatholicleadershippuzzle.com. We'll also link to your website. How can people get ahold of you if they wanna learn more about your work?

[00:56:30] Christina Semmens: Yeah, christinasimmons.com, it, it's a gateway into everything, including The Catholic Leadership Puzzle, sayyestoholiness.com all of my previous work that I've done. And, and right now, you know, I'm focusing on in the wake of my husband's passing I'm focusing upon doing spiritual direction as well as, working with people if they, y- you just wanna get on the phone and have a conversation and go, "I don't know what my next step is," glad to do that.

No I'm not trying to make money here. It's just the reality that so often we do feel like we're alone, we don't know what the next step is, and it's just something as simple as reach out, let's have a conversation. And I'll gladly point you towards probably better resources than me, because that's actually was one of the things I was very glad over the course of the six years that I was kind of doing this work I put in appendix two, I put recommended resources, and it's books and websites and different things that had an impact and influence upon this, it, m- more recent ones, my own formation and, and everything of course has had an impact. But probably the biggest lesson, I've learned throughout is just the fact of it's not about how much you know. It's about how much you care.

[00:57:53] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, Christina, that alone, just that, that little appendix of resources, everything from strategic planning to time management, collaboration, assessment, interpersonal relationships, coaching accompaniment. this is a goldmine 'cause these are kinda tested and vetted resources. You kinda curated them around you've got kinda 12 different things, the holistic formation, the evangelization.

Like, it's, it's really beautiful stuff. So Christina, thank you. Thank you for, gosh, for, for, the book, for your ministry. Folks, if you, if you want to, If you wanna connect with Christina, we're gonna put the the link in the show notes. Let her be a gift to you. Let her encourage you and help you be a guide as you put together your own parish puzzle. Christina, thank you.

[00:58:41] Christina Semmens: Thanks so much, Jim. It's, it's been a pleasure again.

[00:58:45] Jim Jansen: All right, everybody. So you know somebody who might need to hear this. So when you are at your hands-free destination, done walking the dog, done driving, whatever you're doing go ahead and share this out with a friend.