[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. So today I sit down with Deacon MJ Kersenbrock and Jan Kunz and we talk about the evangelization formation step on their clear path. They give some really, really good advice about how to persevere, not get caught in the numbers game, how to start a movement of equipping disciples for their personal mission, their personal apostolate.

They talk about how challenging it was at the beginning to do something that wasn't the way we've always done it. And now they're seeing lives changed and transformed or seeing a growing and expanding movement. They have a ton of people involved that are outside of the usual suspects. It's really a hopeful, encouraging story about equipping disciples for mission. Uh, you're going to love today's conversation. Take a listen. 

Everybody. Welcome to the equip cast a weekly podcast for the archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith. And to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

Deacon MJ Kersenbrock, Jan Kunz. Welcome to the EquipCast. How you guys doing? 


[00:01:18] Dcn. MJ: We're doing good.

[00:01:19] Jan: Very well. Thank you. 

[00:01:20] Jim Jansen: All right. So, if you want to get out a map or Google Jan, you are in Stewart, Nebraska. Deacon, you're in O'Neill, Nebraska, Boyd County, kind of northeast section here of the archdiocese of Omaha.

We're going to get to talk a little bit today about building the evangelization formation step of the clear path. This is part of a special series, right, on building the steps of a clear path. Today we're going to zero in on evangelization formation. For those of you who aren't familiar, a clear path is just a parish framework designed to help people take their next steps as disciples of Jesus.

Basically, it's your plan for making and maturing disciples. Parishes that have a clear path, they know exactly how they connect with people, how they foster conversion, how they help people grow as disciples, and how they equip people as missionary disciples. The concept is simple, but building the individual steps on a clear path doesn't happen over overnight.

And today, Deacon Jan, we're going to talk about the evangelization formation step, talking about kind of what you all did. Uh, you had a really fun partnership. So maybe Deacon, just to set the stage for people, this has all taken place in your family of parishes, rural Northeast Nebraska. Tell us a little bit about your parish family.

[00:02:43] Dcn. MJ: Well, we are known as the Western Holt and Boyd County family of parishes. There are five parishes in this, uh, region, which includes, uh, O'Neill, St. Patrick's, St. Joseph's, and Amela, Nebraska. Uh, also Stewart, St. Boniface, that's where Jan is at, and St. Joseph's in Atkinson, and then Sacred Heart up in Boyd County. It is a large area. 

[00:03:15] Jim Jansen: Can you give an estimate, like, east west, north south, like, what, how many miles are we talking here? 

[00:03:19] Jan: 2, 500 square miles.

[00:03:20] Jim Jansen: 2,500 square miles. That's bigger than, than some states. I think it's probably bigger than Rhode Island. I haven't Googled it, but. 

[00:03:28] Dcn. MJ: On a typical Sunday. Well, we've had, you know, about three or four years ago, we changed our mass schedules on a typical Sunday. Our priests will travel anywhere from 120 to 140 miles. 

[00:03:42] Jim Jansen: Wow. Okay. Uh, that's a lot. 

[00:03:46] Dcn. MJ: We have 2 priests. Father Bernard Starman, Father Ross Burkhalter, uh, there are two deacons, uh, Deacon Roger Phillips is up in Spencer, Nebraska in Boyd County, and then myself here, uh, in O'Neill and Holt County. 

[00:04:02] Jim Jansen: Okay. So, two priests, two deacons, 2, 500 square miles, five parishes. What are the people like? 

[00:04:11] Dcn. MJ: Tough nosed people, good people, rural, hardworking, uh.

[00:04:17] Jan: Proud.

[00:04:18] Dcn. MJ: Proud, yes. Proud people. 

[00:04:20] Jim Jansen: Love their faith, love the land, maybe a few calluses on their hands. 

[00:04:25] Dcn. MJ: Yes. And you know what? We are agriculture in, in nature, but we also have healthcare professionals, uh, obviously all the, you know, banking and, uh, business.


People, we have retirees, we have kids, there are 2 schools here, St. Mary's is a pre-K through high at O'Neill, and Atkinson has St. Joseph's, which is kindergarten through 8th grade. So, yeah, we have the whole gamut. But we live out here. We're out in the rural area for sure. 

[00:05:05] Jim Jansen: Yeah. So Deacon, talk a little bit about just how you all first began to kind of lean into the evangelization formation step because that's, you know, in, in the process of building a clear path that often ends up being one of the latter steps.

But you all really, you, you put some of the best of your energy there first, uh, you found a wonderful partner. Uh, I think that's been a gift as you, as you started to form and equip your people for mission. Tell us a little bit about the story. How did you first get connected with the evangelical Catholic?

[00:05:42] Dcn. MJ: Well, if I could back up for just a minute, about 10 years ago or so, Archbishop Lucas Uh, had a committee and we, there are four pillars, you know, he, it was his mission to have us as, as an archdiocese become one church encountering Jesus. Equipping disciples and living mercy. Since then, we up here, our attempts to form disciples, we did alpha, which is a parish program, a couple of times.

Father Starman was part of a divine renovation and network, uh, with James Mallon, but we always found that we were coming up short, so to speak. So, in January of 2023, he and I went down to Dallas to a conference, uh, sponsored by Evangelical Catholic. And we came back, and we knew in our hearts that was the missing piece.

Cause Evangelical Catholic is focused on creating intentional disciples who take it upon themselves. In the end, it becomes their responsibility to become intentional in their, in their whole lives, anywhere from their work, their family, their neighbors to, to bring Jesus out into their lives. That gave us, at least in our opinion, a path forward where we could say, yes, this is going to change the culture. In our parish, not just to maintain it, but to make it more missional in its outlook. 

[00:07:40] Jim Jansen: Yeah, Deacon, before we turn the turn the mics on, we were just chatting a little bit. And you were talking about how impressed you were with the just the vision for formation and realize like, wow, this is actually formation.

It's not just a program. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I found that really inspiring and I think it's refreshing for people because anybody if you've been in the church at all, you know, these days, it seems like everybody has a program or a book or a something to sell that's going to fix your parish.

[00:08:16] Dcn. MJ: Right. 

[00:08:16] Jim Jansen: And there's a, just a refreshing vision, uh, that really centers on individuals.

[00:08:21] Dcn. MJ: The concept of evangelical Catholic, the part that we, that they have that is called reach more, that is the formation aspect of their company. And we have done, like I said earlier, we did alpha, we did a couple other programs, but when it was over, there was that.

Gap about what do we do now? And, you know, as things go, it's, Oh, we're done back to normal. That's not what, that's not what this is about. This is truly a formation. In fact, they impressed upon the, well, we impressed upon the participants. Jan and I to say in the end, it falls on your shoulders to go out and be the disciple and to carry it forward and it is happening. What do you say, Jan? 

[00:09:21] Jan: I would agree with that 100%. 

[00:09:23] Dcn. MJ: We've seen it a number of, well, we've had how many cohorts that we had, Jan? 

[00:09:29] Jan: Three, three total. Completed. We're in the course of, I have one going here in Stuart. We have another one going in O'Neill. And then we're doing the two schools.

[00:09:41] Jim Jansen: So, let's jump into that. Jan, you're, you're really like, right. I mean, you are all in the details, right? You're the director of evangelization catechesis. You're doing the kids and the adults. So, you've been kind of the point person for the evangelical Catholic. If I could say like the formation they offer you to then help form your people break that down a little bit. Like what actually happens? What's the process like? 

[00:10:07] Jan: Well, MJ and I went, and father went through a training piece. I don't know what six months MJ before we ever got together with people. Read through the program. He, uh, Mark Rose is our consultant and, and he does such a wonderful job of explaining things and being there.

And then when we got our list of people together and started asking people, you know, to, to do it, you know, that's probably the biggest struggle. I don't know. Maybe MJ wants to hop in on there, but it's getting the people to, to take a chance on, on the train. That is, it's another time commitment, you know, and we fight that with everything that we do every single time we think it's not going to get off the ground.

It just comes together every single one, you know, with the people. I guess I just think that after we got that training and we started that first cohort and we questioned the whole way through, I know I questioned what we were doing, if we were doing the right thing, if we were on the right track. And what came from that first cohort was amazing.

Just amazing, amazing bond was made. Amazing things have come from that training. And just that, relationship. It all goes back to building that relationship and keeping those relationships. And I just think that, you know, it's just amazing. We may not have great numbers yet, but I think these baby steps are pretty powerful. What's been happening. So.

[00:11:46] Dcn. MJ: It became evident during our first cohort that the Holy spirit was really working because there was a point in time. Like when Jan, Jan said, people come in and they say, Oh, okay, I'll, I'll, uh, give this a go. There was a point in time though, when it became apparent to their heart that this is what they're called to do.

[00:12:09] Jan: I think those were the most powerful when, when we did the sit down and we went through it with them and talk to them. And, and I know MJ and I, we each add our list of people to talk to, but I had people tell me. No, I don't think this is for me. And, and then a week or so later, they came back and said, I'm just being called to do this.

And I don't know. There's something pretty, pretty powerful when they say, you know, you don't ask them for a write out. Yes. Or no, you say, just listen to what I have to say and then think about it for a while. But I had, I had some nose and then they came back and said, no, I think this is what I need. Those people are changed. If they're open to it, it can change your life quite honestly. So. 

[00:12:56] Jim Jansen: Share a little bit. So, you're making these invitations. What did people share? What changed for them? Like what, like how the, I mean, it sounds like Jesus just personally, you know, the spirit just kind of tapped him on the shoulder and said, no, you need to do this. Did they share like what, what changed their minds? 

[00:13:14] Jan: I honestly think the biggest change was there was something in their life and they were looking for something and didn't realize that this could be the, you know, I think they're, they were having struggles with family or family members or something going on just personally, and they knew they needed something, but didn't know what it was.

The first turnoff, quite honestly, is usually the time. It's 12 sessions, hour and a half sessions. And that's usually the number one thing that people will say, I can't give you an hour and a half for 12 weeks. I just, I just don't have the time. I don't have that. But the ones that came back said, I'm just, I think this is what I need. So it was, they, they knew they needed it. Something spoke to them, you know.

[00:14:04] Dcn. MJ: The other thing too, and I will, I'll Pat evangelical Catholic. On the back, they leave no stone unturned. They have all the materials. It's a series of videos and then scripture readings and exercises. And, but, uh, and then there's also then, uh, in between the sessions.

You know, Jan meets with them, and I have met with them 1 on 1. And so, there's, there's that sort of offline support, if you will, that it helps carry them along. The support there is, I, I was really impressed with how they supplied, you know, the infrastructure, if you will, it is hope that. 

[00:14:51] Jim Jansen: I'm curious, as you were thinking and praying about who you were going to invite to be part of these cohorts, right? Go through these, this 12 weeks of formation. What were you looking for? Were there characteristics you had in mind? 

[00:15:03] Jan: I don't know if it was so much characteristics. The first cohort, I didn't even know any of the people I was asked to, to invite. I, I remember telling MJ and father, I said, they gave me a list of people and I says, I doubt any of them are going to buy what I'm trying to sell kind of a thing, because it's like, they don't know me.

I invited them up to my office and said, I just want to visit with you about something. If you can give me about a half hour of your time. And a couple of them said yes, by the time they left, but most of them I called them following and I had some nose. I had some nose, but the ones we got, I've built a bond with them.

You know, that. Those one on ones are powerful. They really are. I've had awesome one on ones. I, I personally probably enjoy that part of it the most just because I can build that relationship in a in a way that I don't know. I've got a lot of hugs out of those one on ones. So, I think there's You know, the spirit isn't moving in there.

I've had tears. I've had two hour one on ones. I mean, it's just Powerful and but those people are it's that they know they need something, and I don't know some people I have been drawn to. I can. I don't know. I think it's the spirit of moving because I just feel called to ask you to do this and those people have said yes to me.

The other ones, I'll be honest, I, I can't say I really knew them, but they, they gave me a shot by coming up and, and visiting with me about it. 

[00:16:40] Jim Jansen: Jen, you mentioned the one on ones, talk about where do the one on ones fall in this process? Because as I understand it, you know, people are going through the 12-week cohort. That's a communal thing. How many in a cohort? 

[00:16:52] Jan: Well, there've been eight. Six to eight is usually six. 

[00:16:55] Jim Jansen: Yeah. So, six to eight and then at some point you all as leaders are following up with those individuals. What's the goal of the one on ones? 

[00:17:05] Jan: The one on ones are after every after every two sessions. So you should have six total one on ones if you meet them all, which I've been able to pretty much stick with that depends on their schedules because it is asking them to come in again or meet with them again.

Okay. The reason is to build that stronger relationship to know that they have somebody they can ask those questions or clarify what's going on in the, um, in the training, you know, do you have a question? We talk about the prayer companion and, and just pray with them and walk with them and, and.

Sometimes I go back to, they're just at a point in their life, I think they're looking for somebody to talk to and talk to with the faith side of it and not feel judged, you know, there is no judgment and it's, and it's confidential, you know, and, but so much of it comes right out of the, the sessions you just talk about.

There's a whole guide we can follow for one on ones, but I almost find that those just happen so organically that, you know, you just, how's it going? And there's the, the hour might be up, you know. 

[00:18:15] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Then you're in the conversation. 

[00:18:17] Dcn. MJ: Part of the, uh, if you want to call it homework in between sessions is the reach more here or evangelical Catholic asks. The, the participants to pray daily. And so, there's a daily prayer, uh, scripture reading and then, you know, just time to take that in and meditate on it. And so, uh, in the one-on-ones, it's part of our job is to just see how that's going. Because honestly, when we immerse ourselves in prayer, Jesus, he floods into our hearts.

And I think that's, that's the conversion part of it. And I'll have to say, I don't feel as though we're here doing the conversion. It's the Holy Spirit. We're just the instrument of his love here on earth. 

[00:19:14] Jim Jansen: That's so good. Deacon, I'm glad you brought that up because I, you know, when we talk about evangelization formation, you know, it's usually the last step on a clear path, uh, some sort of ministry, right?

That equips disciples as they engage in the minister, you know, the mission of evangelization, whatever it looks like for them, friends, neighbors, coworkers. There's some common characteristics where there's, like, usually a, a deep devotion to the Spirit, you know, the Spirit is kind of the agent of evangelization, so, good, you know, there's a lot of different programs and different types of ministries that can serve evangelization formation can help this equipping, but they have some common characteristics, right? The Holy Spirit is a big emphasis. There's a fellowship with other missionary disciples. People are gathered together. There's an accompaniment from people who are maybe just a step ahead, like you all. Uh, usually it addresses fears.

Oftentimes there's a very particular individual discovery of how I made, right? My, my strengths, my gifts, my charisms. There's a number of different things. You mentioned the practices like the habits of personal prayer. I know there's some other practical skills for evangelization. Can you both talk about that a little bit? Like, what are some of the skills that people learn in these cohorts to be equipped as a missionary disciple?

[00:20:41] Dcn. MJ: I'll speak to that. I think one of the, one of the, uh, parts of this process for this formation is to bring Christ into their day-to-day life and whether that's at work or at home, neighbors, whatever it is. But I think it is part of that is overcoming the fear of mentioning Christ in the Or being Christ to others.

Yeah, say, say more about that. Well, we, you know what it's like nowadays. If you're at work and you mentioned, Oh, yeah, I went to mass today. Some people go, ooh.

[00:21:22] Jim Jansen: Mm hmm. 

[00:21:23] Dcn. MJ: You gotta talk about that. 

[00:21:24] Jim Jansen: Even in Northeast Nebraska, by the way. 

[00:21:27] Dcn. MJ: It's not like we're, it's not like we're immune to it, you know, no, we aren't, but on the same token, if, if we can hear people and minister to them, you know, if, if you're talking to somebody and they mentioned other than the grilled cheese sandwich that they had for lunch, if they talk about their child, who's sick, it's There's the opportunity to, to allow Christ to come into the conversation.

[00:21:56] Jan: I agree. I think it's as simple as their eyes are open, that there are natural windows opening all the time, right around them. You know, it's just a matter of, you know, just taking advantage of rights, what is right in front of you. We're not asking you to go out and, you know, knock on the doors or anything like that. We're just right where you are. What you can do with the people who are around you? 

[00:22:22] Jim Jansen: Yeah, it's a very relational, you know, I mean I knew of and got to work with only a very very little bit with the evangelical catholic when I was doing a college ministry with focus, but they have they have a very relational style God bless people who can talk to strangers and who can go knock on doors But this is like how do I recognize the opportunities the lord is giving me to have a conversation?

You With my neighbor and my coworker and people that I've already in relationship with and maybe I just haven't introduced them to that other friend of mine named Jesus. 

[00:22:57] Dcn. MJ: That's exactly right. It is there. I think, and this is part of it's an awareness of the heart on our parts to hear people, you know, not necessarily maybe just the words, but the pain and struggle and behind in their lives.

And sometimes you can see it in their face, and it's just a matter of maybe cracking the egg a little bit, so to speak, and letting Christ in. 

[00:23:31] Jim Jansen: I mean, I don't want to, I hope this doesn't sound like I'm minimizing it, but I mean, what it really sounds like, okay, people learn how to pray more deeply themselves and they learn how to listen again.

It's like one of the skills is listening skills, but like, right, listening with the Lord, listening a little bit deeper. What else, what else are people learning? 

[00:23:53] Jan: I think another thing that they get out of it is to be able to set the fear aside to, to put on that, that bravery, you know, I think they need that.

I, I guess I, I think about that, you know, when we're confirmed, you know, but on that armor of God, you know, but MJ spoke to that, you know, out here, even you gotta be kind of careful who you bring stuff up with. And I think probably one of the most powerful things I've, I've witnessed. Is when the people have come back and said, I've always wanted to talk to a family member about why they fell away or why they choose to do that.

And they, they said, after doing this, they had that, that confidence that they could go into that conversation and. And it's, it's just a beautiful thing. They said, you know, and it was a wonderful conversation, but it's just like, nobody wants to take that step. It's that fear, you know? And so, I said, you know, faith over fear. And that's awesome. 

[00:24:53] Dcn. MJ: This is one of the things that, that this formation does though, is there are these. You know, besides the videos and scripture, there's exercises about just opening up among the group and, uh, in a non-threatening way. And it's a, uh, it's a tremendous way of, of training yourself, if you will.

To, to be somebody who has the confidence, as Jan said, to breach that barrier and, and to go across it, you know, not in a, in a pushy way, but to do it out of love, you know, in a, in a loving, caring way. 

[00:25:34] Jim Jansen: Can you give an example of like some of these exercises that people do? 

[00:25:38] Dcn. MJ: Well, one of them is we do a timeline, okay, a lifeline, if you will, of your life. Okay. And you would do, you would put little points in your life where you experienced great joy or really tough times, you know, and, and then we would share that with people in the group. It's easy, isn't it? To talk about great times, it is not so easy to say, this is where I failed, or I lost this, you know, or, uh, I struggle with something other than, you know, and yeah, that creates an atmosphere of trust when you can do that. 

[00:26:22] Jan: Well, you're asking people to put a vulnerable and a lot of them do they bring out a very vulnerable time in their life where they were low and you're asking them to do that with people. They don't know. That's probably the most powerful session of all of the sessions, because I think at that point, then the shift turns to.

You know, it's like, Oh, my gosh, people are, are where I've been, or I've walked in their shoes, or I understand and they, they, they bond. And then, then you go into your 1 on 1s and... 

[00:26:56] Dcn. MJ: And then we, we offer prayers out loud, you know, that speak to those things. And, I mean, I'll be honest question. How good are Catholics paying with others?

Yeah, you know, less than average, probably. But on the same token, if you can, again, broach that barrier and get across it all of a sudden. Praying is just the opening of your heart and showing people who you are. 

[00:27:25] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I, I love that. I mean, the opening of your heart, vulnerable, it's like we have to be taught again how to share the hard parts because that's what, I mean, everybody has it, but when we hide those things, we miss the chance to connect.

And to bring the Lord to people who, who are there in that low part right now, and they need a companion. They need the Lord. And if we're not afraid to share where we've been, that's when the Lord really moves in. 

[00:27:58] Dcn. MJ: He is the healer of wounds. 

[00:28:00] Jim Jansen: Yeah, you guys have seen. So much good fruit come for this. I just want to give you a chance. Just like tell some stories. Um, and you can, you know, change the names if, if you need to, but just individuals who, as they experienced this formation, their own experience, and then the ripple effect that it begins to have in the lives of others. Talk a little bit about what you've seen. 

[00:28:22] Dcn. MJ: In our first cohort, we have a man who's a, he's a member of the Knights of Columbus. And at the end of this formation, one of the things that we ask Is that they, they form their own personal apostolate. 

[00:28:38] Jim Jansen: Okay. Now break, break that down for people. What does that, what does that mean? 

[00:28:41] Dcn. MJ: It just means you take upon your own shoulders, a method in which you are going to share what you have to the world.

A lot of people go into small groups where they study scripture and then. You know, discuss it and meditate, but this particular gentleman, he's, uh, he wants to, in his doing programs for the Knights of Columbus for men, Catholic men, you talk about a segment of our, of our church that, in my opinion, needs.

To be converted. It's, it's our fathers. It's our dads, our brothers. Okay. And he is, he has taken that upon himself to have programs out there that address that, where they pray together and they share time together and it's, it will bear fruit. It's, it's just beginning now, but I know men who are involved now, who you watch in two or three years. It will, it will bear fruit that will be. 

[00:29:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah, so he goes through this formation. He's like, gosh, I'm already a night. I feel like my personal apostolate, right? My personal mission. Like, I'm going to keep being a night and I'm going to take advantage of that opportunity to help these other dads and fathers and husbands. Help them come closer to the Lord. So, he's teaching them how to pray and that's his mission field. That's awesome. 

[00:30:20] Jan: I would say in our second cohort, we had a gal that she just, she just was on fire after that, you know, as we went through it, she just soaked it all up. And after that cohort, we started talking about trying to find somebody who could lead the cohort.

Because MJ and I needed to start thinking about expanding out And um, she was willing to do it, but she says she had missed a couple of the sessions And so she traveled to amelia and went through the whole training again With the amelia people so that she felt that she could build it up and all that but she just she just lit up, I mean she'd come for her one on ones and she was excited and You It's like, yeah, well, that's who we want.

And now she's leading a group in O'Neill with another gal from the first cohort and it just, that's what we want to keep things going, you know, cause one or two people can't do this.

[00:31:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I want you to say more about that because. This is grown and expanded. You know, it starts with like a, the six months formation just for the two of you and the pastor.

And then you start a cohort, but now there's a multiplication, like the cohorts are growing and expanding. People who experienced it with you are now, they grab a partner and they're leading it with their own. Talk a little bit about how it's expanded. 

[00:31:48] Jan: Well, I think with distance is always going to be our greatest detriment out here. We're just so far apart. Of course, O'Neill is the hub and the local one, but I think that the more, there's always going to be somebody who's got a niggling that this is what I'm called to do. This is a way I can, can help out. 

[00:32:10] Jim Jansen: Did you just say a niggling? 

[00:32:12] Jan: Yeah. 

[00:32:12] Jim Jansen: Oh, I love that. 

[00:32:14] Jan: I think it starts early on because I know what the groups that I've talked to, I say, you know, and if you feel called to lead these groups, we're going to, we're going to be calling on you.

[00:32:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:32:24] Jan: Because MJ can't do them all. I can't do them all. 

[00:32:28] Jim Jansen: Right, and you're planting the seed early for people. 

[00:32:31] Jan: Yes. 

[00:32:31] Jim Jansen: How do they respond when you ask him to consider leading? 

[00:32:34] Jan: Uh, there will be some who will right out of the gate say, I'm not a leader. We even see it with the, with the formation, you know, as we talk about, because as you go through the formation, they are asked to, to think about starting a group and how to do a small group.

And I've had people come to me and their 1 on 1 and say, I know, I don't want to lead a small group. I am not that person. I have no desire to do that. And I said, that's okay, because not everybody's a possible. It is to lead a small group. So, I put that out there very, very early. Come to the training, listen, be open.

But if it's setting up the adoration, if it's visiting sick people in the home, or if it's, you know, meeting with your family, I said, apostolates can look so very different for everybody. 

[00:33:24] Jim Jansen: When you say that, one of the things that was coming to mind here is that there's this Kind of like spreading out.

It's like, okay, I feel like the Lord's calling me to this. I feel like the Lord's calling me to this. And there's this kind of, it's not, I mean, there's options. There's formation. You could lead a small group. You can, it's not scripted. Just let's be honest. Sometimes parish leaders, pastors, can find that uncomfortable.

Oh, crap. Right. What are, you know, what are people going to do? And sometimes, sometimes initiative is scary. I don't hear any of that. What gives you confidence in these individuals going out and, and following, you know, trying to, trying to follow the Lord and, and do their personal apostolate? 

[00:34:11] Dcn. MJ: It's scary, to be honest with you. It is. But the, the thing is that they have, um, a lifeline with us who I don't want to call us coaches. But, you know, as you run into those fears, we're a sound sounding board for them to say it's okay. 

[00:34:31] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, and they're not rogue. They're connected, right? There's this deep relational connection that you've made through the sessions and the one on ones. It's safe to let people go experiment, you know, go off with a partner, go off with the Lord and, and try out this new ministry or this new mode of service. 

[00:34:54] Dcn. MJ: One, one thing that, that strikes me, Jim, is that when you say we're not going out rogue, it's the truth because we have Our church who is led by our pastor, who is, uh, under the authority of the bishop who has Christ at the head. And so, it is the Catholic church is, is there for us and from way out, you know, in, from Rome, clear to our. 

[00:35:29] Jim Jansen: Yeah, I love your saying that because, you know, sometimes this kind of free spirited, okay, you've been formed. Now, go do whatever Jesus wants you to do. You know, that might seem scary, but it's so safe in a Catholic context because we actually know, you know, we have a whole book.

It's called a catechism. It's like, hey, here's what we actually believe. We have a relational connection, right? All the way down, you know, the apostles, their successors, your pastor. So that there's a built-in support network, there's a clarity and these people have been well formed. They've gone through this formation program, and they're not done, they're connected to each other, they're connected to you guys so that it really is safe to let them begin to act apostolically.

I mean, you know, everybody's human, we all make mistakes, but it's safe to let them do that. Because especially in a Catholic context, there's guardrails, there's, there's clarity, there's a relationship and an authority that's already in place. 

[00:36:31] Dcn. MJ: And if I might not, if I might add, it's also the truth. My experience in life is this, when people encounter the truth, it is attractive. It is something that, who was it said, the one thing, everybody you meet during the day, the person they want to see is Jesus Christ, and that's the truth. If they see Christ in you, then that's an attraction that is hard to ignore. 

[00:37:02] Jim Jansen: Yeah. This has been, I know, such a joyful, fruitful experience for you all. You're really, I mean, you're not that far into it. It's been, what, maybe a year? Little over a year? I don't remember the timeline. Right. Right at a year. Right, right at a year, you already are seeing fruit. You're seeing these groups expand and grow. I'm curious, just, you know, just so we're real, so we're honest.

Let's talk about some of the hard stuff. Like what was hard? What was hard for you? What was hard for participants? Because this is just human and people listening who want to try and do something similar. They want to start to form their people for mission. What was hard and how'd you get through it?

[00:37:41] Dcn. MJ: Well, I'll speak to that a little bit and then make Jan too. One of the problems that I think is true probably in all parishes is this is how we have always done it. And this is not how we have always done it. Therefore, the answer is no. Nobody likes that, that one, that two letter word, no, but if the Holy Spirit is going to work in their heart, in our heart and in theirs, there will be a, uh, an openness and a change.

And one of the things that is so self-evident to me is that the laity. It has to be more involved, and this is really what this is about. We cannot ask our priests to say, you're in charge of this, you're leading it. That is, that's how it was always done. 

[00:38:37] Jim Jansen: Right. It was all on them. 

[00:38:39] Dcn. MJ: Yes. Totally unfair, totally not what Christ wanted. Yes, the priests, they are our leaders, our shepherds, but when we were baptized, we were baptized as prophets, and that is to go out and spread the word, and that's exactly what's happening here. 

[00:38:58] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Amen. Yeah, I mean, this is really I mean, I don't want to get too, well, I do want to get too nerdy, but I'll try and resist it. But like, this is, this is really good ecclesiology. This is really right at the heart of what the church teaches about who we are as baptized members, you know, our relationship between our baptismal priesthood and the ministerial priesthood of our priests and deacons. You know, I mean, in some ways we've been acting like headless, or excuse me, bodiless heads.

Right? Where it's like we've got heads, but we've been expecting our, you know, our priests, maybe religious, but priests and deacons to do all the work that one, not only is it the responsibility of all of us who are baptized, but it's a joy. Like when you do it, it becomes addictive because it's the most, it's the best part.

I, that's as a side note, that's why I think Pope Francis called, called the, uh, his first encyclical, the joy of the gospel, because there's something about beginning to share the gospel again. That ends up being a rediscovery of joy. 

[00:40:04] Jan: I think the other thing is that, uh, that was, that was difficult is there were certain people that when we asked them, it was like, well, we always get asked, you know, we're always the ones who step up.

We're always the first one that the church asks to do things. And, and, and they were probably the first ones to tell us, no, some of them, you know, because it's like, well, we always do that and this and that. But as you're, as you're talking, 
I'm sitting there thinking, just, I keep going back to one thing I've learned through this is that all you can do is ask the no, the no, isn't on me.

The no, isn't a personal, you know, they're, they're just not in a place yet that they, that they want it because the people who have said, yes, they have learned so much from it and grown so much from it, and I just think that It, it is something that we should, it should be more natural than it is. But as Catholics, it's not easy.

MJ said it, you know, that's not the way we've always done it. And it's like, that's okay. Cause we're changing things. Then the more we change the, you know, so we change 1 person at a time. That's 1 more person. I think perspective for me is a lot. Um, Father Starman told me 1 time when I started this job early, we were talking about something else and I said, well, how, what's my number?

You know, what's, what's my number before I cancel something or what's my magic number before, we move forward in each. He leaned over his desk, and he says, if you've got to, you go with it. Ever since he said that, that is just resonated with me. It's like, we are so numbers oriented. It's all about the bigger numbers and greater numbers and bigger is better.

And it's like that. I don't think that's the case with this training. The way I look at it is I don't think I'd want more than eight people in this training. At any given time, because it's too many to, to share those stories and to build that bond. But everything that is great that I feel has happened has just come naturally.

It is just almost organically happened. It just, uh, the opening is there. And I know I, myself have found, I am more open to asking people that I might not ask something of, you know, and if they say no, well, that's okay. You know, maybe next time around or. People have to be willing to give it a shot is ultimately what it comes down to, because we can make it planet prep it do it, but we can't make the people come.

It's like, I wish we had that magic word to say, you just need to come do this, you know, and. That's probably my frustration is I don't know what that thing to say is that they're gonna sign me up. 

[00:42:45] Jim Jansen: You know, I'm curious, Jan, as you talk about this, you know, just kind of approximate how many of your participants have been, let's call them the usual suspects, the people get that get asked for everything.

And how many of them have been newer, you know, they were maybe a member of the parish, but they hadn't been engaged like this before. What's the breakdown between usual suspects and new participants? 

[00:43:12] Jan: Oh, gosh. 

[00:43:14] Dcn. MJ: I got a number in my head. You go ahead. 

[00:43:16] Jan: I was going to say, because I don't know all the usuals in O'Neal, but I'm going to have to say I think O'Neal blew me away with our first one and the second one. I don't Do you say 20%? I don't know. 

[00:43:29] Dcn. MJ: That's exactly where I would be. Yeah. The usual suspects were 20. The uh, ones who surprised you were 80%. 

[00:43:37] Jim Jansen: Wow. That's huge. Cause honestly, you'll end up getting the usual suspects at a certain point. They're going to hear from all the new people who've done it, how wonderful it is.

And like, Hey, uh, can I do that? You know what I mean? So, you, you'll eventually get them, but that's really fun. That's fantastic to start with people who. I mean, at so many levels, there's so many reasons why that's exciting, but they actually have availability to do the new thing in a way where sometimes the usual suspects don't have the availability because they're carrying another responsibility.

[00:44:10] Dcn. MJ: Sure. 

[00:44:10] Jim Jansen: Wow. 

[00:44:11] Dcn. MJ: I don't want to blow my own horn here, but I've been a member of this parish. I'm 68 years old. I've been a member of this parish. Since I was born other than when I was not here for school, but I know a lot of people and you can kind of sense those who, uh, maybe at the very beginning, Jan, we, we made a list of 30 people who we thought might be open to this and we had a pretty good success rate, but the nose were there, but from there, uh, it just kind of Evolves.

We had somebody after the first cohort was done and the people were talking about it. And somebody said, well, why didn't they ask me to do this? That's awesome. Uh, and guess what? Three weeks later, they got a phone call. Yeah. 

[00:45:11] Jim Jansen: Oh, that's so good. You know, our time is just totally flown on this, but I want to give you a chance. Um, you all obviously have had a great experience partnering with the evangelical Catholic. Not everybody will get a chance to do that, but for those who are at a place where they're just starting to feel the calling, maybe they've been inspired by this conversation and they're like, ah, we need to start forming our people for mission. What advice would you give them? 

[00:45:42] Jan: I think the first thing is to, you just pray and you just start asking and you just keep on asking and don't quit and don't give up because it's pretty easy to get disheartened, you know, after, uh, I'll be honest when we first met and we broke down our list, I figured MJ would call five people and he'd have five people.

I mean, I just, I just said, I'm going to call five people and have five no's. And it just didn't work out that way. You know, it was just like, I just didn't quit and it's really hard to ask people. But I think you got to keep going and you just got to keep on, um, just knowing what you're doing it for. And quite honestly, the more people who have taken the training and they start talking about it will help also.

[00:46:30] Jim Jansen: But you had to persevere.

[00:46:31] Jan: Yes, you do. It's, it's frustrating. I mean, there were many times we, well, the second cohort, we had to push it back because we didn't have enough people. And, you know, and it worked, we got the people, we did it. But I ended up going to Amelia and I had four people, and it was awesome. I just think we got to get the numbers thing out of our head.

You know, if you got two people who want to do it, well, let's do two people, you know, and make the time and, and give them what they're looking for. Some people don't realize what they're even looking for until they do something like this. 

[00:47:05] Dcn. MJ: I would say too, it hinges. Also, on the approval of your pastor. That's obvious because nothing happens if he's not on board, it's probably not going to work. But if he is, you have a darn good chance it's going to be successful. And I would also say that it's good to use the expertise of others. To help facilitate that change what that means. Exactly. I don't know for us.

Uh, we hired evangelical Catholic to be our, our coach in our mentors. It costs some money. Okay. And that's okay. I have a sign out. Well, I had a sign outside my office door before it burned two days ago, but it said faith before finances and mission before money.

[00:48:07] Jim Jansen: Say that again, Deacon. That's good. 

[00:48:09] Dcn. MJ: Faith before finances. Mission before money. Sometimes we get it totally backwards, but I have always believed that as, as your parish becomes more faithful, the money will flow in. I know that's always a concern. 

[00:48:29] Jim Jansen: Well, disciples. give and non-disciples give to just non disciples don't give to churchy causes. 

[00:48:38] Dcn. MJ: True. The other thing is, if you know, some key parishioners who have personal connections to others, use them, utilize them, ask for their opinions and, you know, shake the bushes so that you, so that you, you get it started. That's just a practical part of it. 

[00:49:02] Jan: Yeah, because when we started, when we started. With our first session with the St. Mary's teachers, when we passed out the books, I, that one teacher, I overheard her say, Oh yeah, I heard so and so talking about this. This is really good. 

[00:49:14] Jim Jansen: That's exactly what you want. Yeah.

[00:49:16] Jan: It's like, so this, this will be good, you know? And after our first session, we've only had one session with the St. Mary's teachers. I was visiting with a couple of them, and they said, oh, yeah, they really liked what it was what we were talking about. They were really drawn to it. It's different than what we've done before.

Not that what you did before is bad. That's not what I'm saying. But you just, I think it's just different. You know, it's just a different way of and, you know, different is okay. I think as Catholics, we have to. It's okay to, to let's get outside the box. Let's not do the same old, same old. Cause it's, it's, we're done with that.

It's just time to, you know, get out there and be proud to be Catholic. Cause I think we're kind of getting, you know, we just, I had my last cohort meeting here in Stuart. Just a couple nights ago, we talked about that, you know, we got to get out there. We are called to do that. I said, yep, every, every one of us is qualified to get out there and, and do this. It's not like you have to have a theology degree or anything. It's simple, simple conversations. 

[00:50:19] Dcn. MJ: And finally, to be surrounded by prayer, immerse ourselves in prayer, however, that looks in a person's life. It's going to be different for everybody, but prayer is the foundational piece to this, everything that we do.

[00:50:38] Jim Jansen: Thank you. I mean, thank you for everything that you do. I mean, just the perseverance, the courage, taking the chance. It's beautiful to see just, I mean, we're just at the start here, but I mean, I can see it. You guys can see it. Like the Lord is doing something here that there's growth, there's life. Very fun.

So, thank you for being with us. Thanks for sharing a little bit, a little bit of your story here. Uh, for those who are interested, we're going to link in the show notes to the evangelical Catholic. Uh, we'll link to the, uh, St. Patrick's, uh, family, uh, parish website. So, you can see, see that as well. Thank you, Deacon Jan. Thanks for being with us. 

[00:51:16] Dcn. MJ: Jim. It's always good to see you. 

[00:51:18] Jim Jansen: All right, everybody, you know, somebody who needs to hear this episode, maybe they need the encouragement to persevere, uh, just the reminder to gather people together and, and help form them for mission, uh, whatever it is you wait till you're safely at your destination and then share this out with a friend.

Thanks for listening to the EquipCast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip.archomaha.org. God bless and see you next time.