Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Quip Cast. So today I sit down with Susan Windley Dous. Susan is the author of The Four Ways Forward, becoming an Apostolic Parish in a post Christian world. And honestly, with no exaggeration, this is, this is probably my favorite book In the last five to 10 years on parish renewal, Susan left a wonderful successful career as an academic when the Lord gave her a really profound call to come and serve parishes in rediscovering their missionary identity and learning again how to evangelize.

And she brought all of that academic rigor to highlight. The four ways that seem to be working for parishes, that are finding life again. So we talk about the four Ways Forward, we talk a little bit about her academic career. It's a fantastic conversation if you feel at all overwhelmed by all the things, all the stuff, all the resources and philosophies and approaches, you're gonna love this conversation.

Susan distills all of those into four ways forward and makes the case that you have to have at least three of those in operation to really begin to see new life in your parish. It's a fun conversation. You're gonna love it. Take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha.

I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go.

Susan Windley Dous, welcome to the Equip Cast. How you doing today? 

Susan Windley-Daoust: I'm doing great. How are you Jim? 

Jim Jansen: I'm really good. I was, I was musing before we turned on the microphones. I was praying, I don't even remember. How did we meet? How did we get connected? I'm really glad that we did, but I don't remember ... 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Me too.

Jim Jansen: ...who introduced us? 

Susan Windley-Daoust: It was because we were both speaking in the Archdiocese of Dubuque through webinars. 

Jim Jansen: That's right. Yeah. Matt, that Shelby, 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Matt Selby. That's right. Said it's like, you know, you two really ought to know each other. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's right. We're right. They're doing US series, 

Susan Windley-Daoust: common ideas here. So he was right, so I reached out. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's right. Thank you. Oh, that was so good. Okay, so Susan, for everybody else. Who are you? What's your, what's your story? 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Well, I am living in Winona, Minnesota in the, in the Miami of Minnesota where it's nice and warm, warmest temperature in Minnesota every day of the year.

Jim Jansen: The Miami of Minnesota. Well, that's awesome. I've never, yeah, I've never heard that. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: That's who we are. It's a funky little town. I'll, I'll put it that way. I am married to Jerry. I have five kids who are teenagers and young adults, and for all my life I've been Catholic. It's, you know, since about six days in, I'm a cradle Catholic.

I decided to go ahead and get a graduate degree in theology. So I did that and I actually did that at Vanderbilt, which was an interesting choice on my part. I sort keep saying, but at the time I was really interested in delving into contemporary ecumenical work. I mean like actually working for the World, world Council churches, and there are people who really invest their lives into trying to live out Jesus' call that we may all be one.

You know? And it's a slow process. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. For Unity. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: I decided not to invest my time, honestly, in that space, but I don't regret that I explored it because that is a real passion in my heart that the Lord does want us all to be one and unity is hard to come by and harder by the year it seems like. So it's good to remember that.

But I always wanted to teach so. I got my degree and I began teaching at the University of St. Thomas and then St. Mary's University in Minnesota. I was chair of theology and God took a two by four and said, guess what? I want you to go into evangelization. And that's what I did. I did that through an invitation through the diocese of Winona Rochester to become the director of Missionary Discipleship, which was a new position for seven years.

Towards the end of that time had been very actively discerning, you know, how much I loved the work I was doing, but I particularly loved helping parishes become evangelizing parishes. And you know, I mean, working in a chancery that some of what you do, I'm sure it's not all of what you do, you get a lot of other things put on your desk, and there none of them are bad.

But I wanted the focused, you know, I, I really felt like this is where my gift was and this is also what the world really needs. So I went out and, uh, with some other people, founded this nonprofit apostate called the Mark five 19 project. And that's what we do all the time. That's our dedication. So that's who I'm. 

Jim Jansen: That's awesome.

I, there's so many things. I mean, we're gonna dive into the, the parish conversation we'll talk about, right. The apostate. Mark five 19. But I, I wanna, I, I remember, you know, when we had a conversation a couple months back mm-hmm. You shared a little bit a about that two by four, right? Where, where you're, you're an academic, you're teaching undergrads, I believe about, you know, uh, theology and the Lord did something special there.

You saw, I think, you know, what was happening in their hearts and their minds. Can you expound on that a little bit? 'cause that's a beautiful story. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: It is a beautiful story. Um, especially in retrospect at the time, you know, sometimes these things are a little bit confusing, like, what's going on here? But... 

Jim Jansen: yeah. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: It actually began when I started teaching because I created an assignment for a general education course that I taught called The Christian View of the Human Person.

And I taught that course almost every semester. Hmm. That I was at St. Mary's University. And the assignment in that course, the, the crowning assignment was to write your own spiritual autobiography. So students did that, and that meant that I got to be on the receiving end of all these students. You know, just, it was really so moving.

I mean, just really putting their heart on a plate and handing it to me. You know, it's like where was God in their life? How did they understand God through particular relationships and events that occurred in their lives. And you know, when I started offering this assignment around I think 2002, the students were mostly Christian.

Uh, they were mostly self-identifying as Christian, in fact, by a large margin. And every year after that, it began to go down and down and down. And I wasn't initially keeping track or count, I wasn't watching the pew numbers, uh, in a big way at that moment. But about 10 years in, at around 2012, I began noticing it's like, things are really different.

I've got all these students, and they're not like switching religions or anything like that. They're just purely, actively saying, it's like, you know, I'm just, I don't identify with any religious tradition. I grew up Christian, but yeah, I, I don't really, I don't identify that way now. It was the rise of the nuns.

Right? 

Jim Jansen: Right. It's just 10 years, but you're like, oh my goodness. All of a sudden, whatever label they might claim, right. When they share their heart and their story, they're like, yeah, I don't consider myself Christian. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Right, exactly. And it just got worse, honestly, from every year since then. It was a little bit like a snowball.

And later on we saw that in the statistics too. It really did begin to snowball in a big way, but it got to be around 2017, and I was reading through and grading these assignments, and I got like 10 papers in a row where students were saying, you know, I, I don't consider myself having any religious affiliation at all.

And I just stopped to the grading at that point and began praying. It's like, what is going on here? Lord, I, I don't get it. I mean, for goodness sake, they're going to a Catholic university. This is their second course in theology. What's going on? 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. That, oh gosh, that's a huge con. Yeah, that's a huge context.

Like these are kids who are making a huge, well, at least their parents are making a huge financial sacrifice to send them a Catholic university. So in theory, they're surrounded by a Catholic culture. Probably went to Catholic undergraduate, right. Or, or excuse me, probably high school, Catholic high school, high school, grade school, whatever.

And pretty often. Yeah. And, and, and they've had multiple faith classes. Mm-hmm. And they're still lost, right? Yeah. I know. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: I just, we were just puzzled, puzzled, completely puzzled by it. But they weren't hostile, you know? I mean, yes. It's not like they hated being there or hated even taking these classes. I actually got really good reviews.

Yeah. But they weren't Christian. And that bothered me a lot. And, and I'll explain why in a moment, but I began praying. At one point when I was grading these papers and, and asking the Lord directly what is going on here and received this image of the Good Samaritan. And I thought about that and thought that doesn't, I, I don't get it.

What what's going on with that? And then I really heard the Lord saying to me, it's like, you know, you're leaving them bleeding by the side of the road. And that was shocking. Wow. That was genuinely shocking. It's like, yeah, what do you mean I'm leaving them bleeding by the side of the road? It's like, wait a minute.

That doesn't make any sense either. It's kinda like I'm teaching them theology the very best that I can. I've got this open door policy. It's kind like, you know, I'm, I'm very involved with the students as much as the teacher can be. It's like, I don't get it. It's kinda like, I don't understand why they cannot take their woundedness.

'cause they're very, I. Very comfortable sharing their level of woundedness with me. It was their, their honesty was moving in that regard, but I don't know why they can't take their woundedness and walk about, you know, 500 yards from our classroom to the chapel that's in the middle of campus and take that woundedness to you there and heard the Lord push right back and say they are far too wounded to get there on their own.

Just like with the Good Samaritan, right? 

It's kind of like, you know, it's like the Good Samaritan picks up the one who's been wounded and takes them mm-hmm. To the doctor. And so I received that and that just stopped me because that completely meshed with what I've been reading for almost two decades.

At that point, they're really wounded, they're really, really wounded. They know they're really wounded, they're not really happy about disaffiliating, but they're not connecting the dots that Jesus is the divine physician of their lives. They were missing an encounter with Jesus Christ. They knew a lot of book knowledge, but they had nothing to hang that book knowledge on.

So the more that I thought about this, prayed about this and so forth, it just made it really clear to me the Lord was calling me out of the academy and out of teaching and to really work for evangelization. I, it just became really clear to me when I was talking to one priest about this, and, and this was a priest in the seminary, um, that's as, uh, minor seminary is associated with St.

Mary's, and he said. You know, Susan, God has given you something really, really special here, because now suddenly you have seen where these young people are. It's like, and that's something that campus ministry hasn't seen because they get the people who are already Catholic, already Christian, who want to go into their faith.

Like he said, like, I don't see them, they're not at mass. It's like, but you saw them and you asked them what do they believe? It's like, there's not a lot of people who have the knowledge that you have on this. It's like, now what are you gonna do with that? And oh boy, it's like, well, I think I'm going to have to, um, try to lead them to encounter Jesus.

Right? 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. Which is, I mean, gosh, Susan, I mean, I just, I love this story. There's so much here. I mean, just the, the raw intimacy with Christ, the, the humility. You know, to, to engage with him and, and then just the sacrifice. You know, you were, I I think you were, you were either tenured or tenure tracked. You were a good teacher.

Susan Windley-Daoust: Uh, I was tenured and I was chair. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, you know, this is not like, well that's great. I didn't actually, teaching wasn't going that well anyway. Right. I mean, and, and here's the crazy part. I don't think this is crazy, but you're like, okay, so I gotta help young people. I gotta help young people.

I know. I'll go work for the diocese and I'll help parishes. 'cause there's a ton of young people hanging out at the chancery, like, talk about that connection. I know. Sorry, I'm making fun of us. But like, I know that connection and, and I love that, but like, bridge that calling for people. Sure. Because that's not, that's not immediately intuitive.

Susan Windley-Daoust: No, you're absolutely right. And honestly, honestly, I, what I first thought I would do. When I said yes to the Lord about evangelization, and I also said, you're going to have to show me how exactly to do this because mm-hmm. I don't know how you go get work as an evangelist. I mean, I know how I could do it in my own life.

Right, right. But I had a sense that the Lord was asking me to, to move my work life as well. Right. Alright. So I did actually reach out to Focus. Now Focus was active in my diocese, although not at my university at that point. And I thought, well, I admire what they do. Maybe that's something that I can get involved in.

And, you know, had conversations. So that was, you know, going somewhere. I thought, um, because I really did love this age group and I loved working with, you know, 18 to 22 year olds. I mean, it really is a special time in people's lives where they're making some critical decisions about what's next and who am I?

It's, it's so good. It's so good. But that was happening. And then I got a call from the priest who was the Vicar general all the time. He's like, Susan, it's like, I've, I've got this crazy question for you and it's like, would you ever consider working for the diocese? Like as the director of missionary discipleship?

And I went, oh, it's like, sure. It's like, wait a minute. So good. Did you just, did you just say Yes? 'cause he did not know all this had been going on in the background. I mean, we had been friends for a while. Um, but he didn't know I was looking for other work or any of that. It was crazy. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: So, you know, what had happened was they were trying to hire in this field fairly quickly.

And really wanted to implement Pope Francis is the joy of the gospel, you know, to, to really hire somebody who could be sort of the in-house consultant for parishes, trying to reach out to these younger generations and become evangelizing parishes and so forth. So there is a bridge. There is a bridge, but, but it's, it's one the Lord created, let's put it that way.

I wouldn't have thought my way into that particular role, that's for sure. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. But I mean, if I can, you know, obviously hindsight's 2020, but you know, from my perspective, again, I worked for Focus. I love campus ministries. I love youth ministries. But when you really get below the surface, number one, the all of the data shows the most impactful relationship or well thing, let's just say thing to help a young person claim their faith.

Is the faith practice of their parents, right? Like a deeply lived conversational experience that way dramatically overshadows Catholic schools, youth ministry mission trips, right? All of the stuff. And so it's like, okay, wow. Like that's the thing. But then you say, yeah, but whose job is it to form these parents?

Oh, well that's the parish's job. And when you look, most parishes aren't mobilized to do any sort of adult evangelization or catechesis, right? Like, and so it's like, oh, no wonder it's not working. It's like you kind of cha you, you trace it back, just a couple of steps. You realize like, oh wow, the parish really is the key.

It's the hinge to all of this. I mean, it really is like, it's, it's the hope of the world. It's where the Lord chooses and comes to be close to his people. And when you look under the hood, many of our parishes need, need help figuring out how to, how to do this again. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: No, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, we could have every other outreach apostolate, you know, diocesan ministry, you know, cooking on all cylinders and doing really excellent, you know, inspired even work.

But if our parishes don't receive the support that they need in order to make this turn, and it is a turn to becoming an evangelizing parish, it's like. Knocking off the first three rungs of the ladder, it's like you're never going to get to the fourth rung. I mean, it, it really just so undercuts everything else that we offer as a church.

Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, the parish is where 90% of Catholics get 90% of their exposure to the church. That's right. That all the specialized ministries rely upon that. Right. Okay. Susan, give us some context. I mean, we've already kind of done it, but I just wanna give you a chance to be a little explicit here. Just talk about we're, you know, we're gonna talk in generalities here.

Mm-hmm. But talk about the state of the parish today as you see it. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Well, the state of what it could be, or the state of what it is, you know? 

Jim Jansen: Yes and yes. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Yes and yes. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean both. 

Yeah. But let's start with like the, you know, the, ah, current circumstances and then the, the dream. Okay. 'cause both are helpful for us to have in our minds here.

Susan Windley-Daoust: The current circumstances are pretty rough. Uh, I, I'm not gonna lie. The current circumstances are rough and not because there aren't people who aren't working hard, and it's not because there aren't people who are, you know, living saints in our parishes. But there is amen, this adjustment that needs to happen and it needs to happen fast because most of the parishes in the United States, unless they are impacted by either, uh, immigration or if they're in an area where the population is actually swelling and they're picking up people who are moving in, it's like right almost every other parish has lost people.

Okay. It's in decline and sometimes that decline is pretty astronomical, to be perfectly honest. I know that there are a lot of people, especially in the pews who are saying like, well, the problem is we don't have enough priests. Like, all right, I'll admit that is actually a problem. It's true. We are really strapped for priests, but it's not the primary problem.

The primary problem is that we don't have parishes that are growing disciples and that are really reaching out to their neighborhoods and inviting people to come and see, and that's what they really need to become. We're really in this model that has been around for a hundred years and worked well a hundred years ago, where the parish was established and the people who were in a culture that really affirmed some level of Christianity.

Naturally went. It's like this is what we do, this is what we do on Sunday. We go to the parish and we raise our kids Catholic and we have a whole lot of them, you know, and so on and so forth. And what do you do when you reach of age? It's like you probably either discern becoming a priest or nun and or you discern that you're going to be married and you have more kids and that's not where we live.

Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: That is not where we live in the United States nowadays. So it's not like all is lost and it's not like there isn't a reality that our, within our church tradition.

Cultures that have not been as friendly to them as, right. They were in days past. I mean, we, we've had missionary parishes before, but not in the United States, not in most parts of the United States. So, I mean, we need to ask our parishes like, you need to read your mission field better, and maybe for the first time, frankly, and not assume that what was working, you know, in the 1980s or in the 1950s is the way that we're doing it now.

It's clearly not working for our two youngest generations. So I have thoughts about that, but that's the state of the parish. Like we, we are all in the same boat together of needing to negotiate a real change, to becoming more outward focused and to really equip the people within the parish, the baptized, to live out their lay vocation, to share the gospel, you know, with their family, with their children, but also with their neighbors, you know?

And it doesn't need to be going far away to go be missionaries, right? Most people are called to be missionaries according to their state and life and in their immediate 500 yards. Seriously. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. Yeah. No, uh, totally. And I, I wanna give you a chance to kind of expound on that, but I, I just have to. I have to say like, you know, here we are, we're talking about this.

You're in Minnesota, I'm in Nebraska, you know, the heart of the heartland and our parish statistics are devastating. I mean, we have, of course, rural parishes are experiencing not only the disaffiliation of faith. Maybe not quite as severe. 'cause there is a, i I tend to buy into the rural goodness, but then for them, the population of their counties is half of what it was.

So the, the net effect is the same. There's this huge fall off in parish mass attendance and parish participation because of the disaffiliation and the population drop. But it's not like it's any better in the city. I mean, we are talking about there are two large, like, you know, suburban parishes. They're not the biggest, they're not in high growth areas, but they're in stable real estate markets.

And they both have one third, the mass attendance that they did 20 years ago. Right. So like 2005. These are stable real estate market parishes. There's no less people in the neighborhood And their, yeah, their mass attendance of is one third of what it was 20, just 20 years ago. It's shocking. And, and I think it could feel hopeless.

I mean, if if you're not paying attention, you're not discouraged, but then you, but then you start to pay attention of like, oh no, and the temptation to discouragement is overwhelming. I know we're gonna get practical here, but just Susan, paint a picture of what a parish could be. You know, I love the way Pope Francis talks about the hope that parishes are the flexibility.

There's a special dynamism there. I know you believe in that. What, what could a parish be? 

Susan Windley-Daoust: You know what, this is the thing. It's like parishes could be some of the most exciting places to be on earth. I mean, they are the mm-hmm. Beacon of God's love and goodness to your immediate neighborhood. So I do think that parishes are, are called to sort of really respond to the very local realities.

Within their geographic boundaries. So I don't think that they all look the same. I mean, if you're going to get into details here, it really does need to match the mission needs of the mission field. But on the other hand, I really do believe that our parishes could be places of enormous discipleship growth.

You know, lifelong discipleship has been taught in the directory of catechesis and so many of our magisterial documents for decades, if not centuries. Right? And it's because it's true and it's right. And we just need to sort of break some habits and customs, and it's like, look, you want to learn more? You want to grow in your discipleship, walk with Christ.

This is exciting and good and makes your life better. It's just crazy. But no, I mean, if I'm trying to paint a picture, it's like. I can absolutely picture parishes that have really strong mass attendance, people who are genuinely excited to be there, people who have good, good, strong friendships within their parish, right?

And everybody in town knows about that parish. And even if they don't agree with what the Catholic Church stands for and holds, it's like, you know what? That is a solid community and a really generous group of people. They're known by their generosity to the rest of the community and how they love those who are poor and vulnerable, and they're people who walk the walk and you know, who doesn't want to be a part of that?

Seriously. Right. So I think, oh my gosh, I think it's so completely possible. And I mean, we do have examples of parishes that look like that, but they don't get there accidentally and they don't get there overnight. 

Jim Jansen: Yes. So, yeah, no, that's good. I, there's this, right, there's this instinct. This is, you know, you could, you could get lettuce stray with this, but it's like, if you're not doing something new, if you don't feel like you're in a little bit of uncharted territory, then you might have room for growth because the old ways are not bearing the same fruit that they once did.

And so, yeah, there's a deep, deep intentionality and a long, consistent effort required. It's not, we're not talking about tweaks here. This is Okay. This is a really good, this is probably a great place just to kind of jump in. I love your book. I love the framework that you lay out there. It's very fun to me.

You know, many, I dunno, it's like I'm kind of a practitioner, I'm not an academic, but I really appreciate the kind of academic rigor, the, the kind of analysis and kind of the objective watching of the patterns. I'll, I'll, I'll phrase it that way. The, the way you, sure. You look at what, what God is doing for parishes that are experiencing new life and renewal.

You outline that there are four ways forward that seem to be working. Give us just a quick overview. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Yeah. So I wrote this book called, I didn't even do that in my intro. I wrote this book called The Four Ways Forward. It is about becoming an apostolic parish in, uh, a difficult culture, uh, what I call a post-Christian world.

There are, I think, four ways in fact forward, and this is really the work of the Holy Spirit. I, I really do believe that's the case. Amen. Amen. I do believe that God is going to give us everything, every parish, in fact, everything that we need in order to be fruitful in the land in which we live today. But we need to recognize that the fruit may look different than what we were harvesting, uh, a few se, you know, decades ago.

Jim Jansen: Mm. Say more about, wait, say more about that. What do you mean the fruit may look different? 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Well, by fruit I mean in terms of what God is giving us in terms of ways forward or processes or models. Oh, God, yeah. Evangelization. Yeah. I mean, I think the ultimate fruit of people who are, you know, saints in our world.

Yeah. Sand hood may look a little different in some ways, but I mean, it looks more the same than different. Right, right, right. Yeah. The goal there is similar. The goal there is similar. Right. So we've got these four ways, and I pulled these together in part because I was trying to get a handle on everything that was available in parish evangelization when I first began working for the Diocese of Winona Rochester.

'cause that was the big. Piece that a lot of pastors were telling me is not that they didn't wanna do something, but there were so many options they didn't know where to start. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. There's a lot of stuff, a lot of products and ministries and conferences. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Right? Right. Exactly. I mean, particularly that year.

I mean, there just seemed to be this absolute glut of resources, and don't get me wrong, in the end, that's a good thing. It's a good thing that we have. Mm-hmm. So much freely and at low cost available to help parishes. Engage in the path of becoming evangelizing parishes. But the thing is, I would look at these like, well, this one really works for this type of parish, or this one really is angled to this particular group and this one is using this particular process, which is helpful at this stage of the journey, but not so much in this other stage of the journey.

So I was trying to sort of map this, to be perfectly honest. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well I can see your academic training at work, which is so helpful. 'cause it, it rang true to my experience. It's like, yeah, these things are kind of, there's some groupings, there's multiple offerings, but they're all kind of within, you know, what you term one of them is right, the organizational health way.

So lay, lay those out for us. What are they? 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Yeah, for sure. Okay, so, so I've got four. One I'm calling radical hospitality meets first proclamation radical hospitality. It's like most parishes think they're good at hospitality. And then I define for them what hospitality is and they realize they're not. And I, I don't say that to be, I don't say hi to the people I know.

I don't. Thats mean, but it's widely misunderstood. It's widely misunderstood. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. I say hi to the people I know. I was like, okay, there's more. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Yeah. No, hospitality is really about generosity to the stranger. Right. Okay. So, so when you think about, when the three strangers come to meet Abraham, I mean, he was, you know, slaughtering the calf and all this, like, he was demonstrating hospitality to the stranger.

It's not just being nice. Right. And it's not just being friendly and, and it's not like nice and friendly or bad things, but they're not generosity to the stranger. It's really stepping it up. So radical in this case means at the root, okay. Radicals means root in Latin. So radical hospitality is like you are going to live out generosity to the stranger as absolutely foundational.

Absolutely foundational. The first thing you do as a disciple, as a parish is generosity to the stranger. Now, we tend to think of that as being like financial generosity to the stranger, and sometimes that's needed. Don't get me wrong, but I'm really talking about welcome here more than anything else.

Welcome an invitation. This is the genius I think of this particular model. Radical hospitality meets first proclamation. Often people try to separate those two things. It's like, if we welcome people, we can't actually talk about cheeses. Okay? Don't do that anymore. People, it's good to respect what people are, but you don't need to erase who you are. Okay? 

Jim Jansen: Right? Yeah. Or or the opposite. They talk about Jesus with no. Care or concern for the person in front of them. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Right? Right, exactly. There are ways to do this. Okay, so, so first proclamation is just a way of talking about, you know, the core of the gospel. Make sure that people are invited to the core of the gospel, invited to the core of the gospel.

And if you're looking at processes or, or programs that really operate on this model, alpha is a really obvious example. Christ life is also very much in this model. I think St. Paul Street Evangelization is, it's not exactly a parish ministry, but it really is very much in this vein as well, sort of putting themselves out there to be that face of the church and the face of hospitality and welcome.

So they can be very, very powerful. And personally, I love this model. I, I love this model. I, I not only think it's powerful, I think it's a lot of fun, to be honest. 

Jim Jansen: It is. It's like, it's like a little party and you let Jesus have a few words, you know, you invite him, right. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Or even more than a few as as you move on. Right?

Jim Jansen: Right, right. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: But it really breaks the idea. People are so scared of evangelization. I mean, even at this, to this day, they are so scared of evangelization. When you go to an alpha training or a Christ Life training, you realize like, wait a minute, like, this could be fun. Like, I can invite people to something that's, you know, warm and friendly and fun, and we get to have great conversation.

So there's a lot that's super appealing about it, but the best thing about this model is that it really is, it's designed to reach out to people who don't necessarily know anything about Christianity. And that's often for a lot of people, the thing that they have their hardest, it's hardest for 'em to wrap their minds around.

It's like, you know, how, how do I even, where do I even start? It's like, well, your parish could help by hosting an alpha course or a Christ Life course and really empower you and equip each one of you to go and invite somebody. And will most people come? No, but some people will, some people will and they wouldn't have if you hadn't invited them.

And at that point you let the lord, you know, in the driver's seat. He, he always was. But just recognize, it's kinda like, you know, you've brought this person to a place to extend your friendship and you're welcome with that person, but, but also to. Invite them, invite to see, come and see. Really, it's like, is this something that is going to speak to them at this moment in their lives?

Jim Jansen: Alright, now we could talk forever about this. I know, I know. This is a problem. I know. But, but one of the things is, as powerful as that is, and we have so many of our listeners that love Christ Life and Alpha, you know, and, and kerygmatic retreats that Yes. That do something similar, but it's not enough.

What, what else? 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Okay. You're right, you're right. That's the problem. Okay, so second model is small groups, spiritual multiplication. Okay. And this is, again, a little bit of a mashup and I, I really credit the Holy Spirit for, for just sort of raising this up in our time. We've known about the power of small groups, just about forever.

Okay. Small groups are, are pretty popular in most parishes. Most parishes are going to have, you know. Some kind of Bible study or a Lenin's prayer group or something like that. Right. And they're all good. They're all good. I, I'm glad that that happens. Spiritual multiplication really is the idea that, you know, when you get people who are sharing and growing in their discipleship, in these small groups, that if you're gonna be an evangelizing parish, you're going to invite others in, but you can't invite them to the same small group because then it becomes a large group.

Right? And small is important here. Small is important. You need to break. 

Jim Jansen: That's fantastic. I love that. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: You need to break up the groups. So yes, you, yes, you spiritually multiply the small groups, right? But that again, needs to be intentional and not accidental. Um, because most people are gonna want to stay with their group. 

Jim Jansen: Right? There's an investment that is required from the coordinators, from the current group facilitators. That often goes unseen. People see the small groups, they count the small groups, they know how many, but what you miss is, yeah, but for it to really grow and become a healthy movement, there's all that effort accompaniment that goes into the multiplying of those groups.

Susan Windley-Daoust: No, exactly right. And to my mind, this is powerful and meaningful, and it creates parishes with these deep friendships that are rooted in more than common interest or state in life, but is actually based in our discipleship. And that's really what parishes should be, right? Yeah. It is a simple but really powerful way to continue the discipleship path among adults.

Because I mean, we're not going into like grade 13, 14, 15, 16, you know? And you keep going 40, 41, 42, you know? 

Jim Jansen: Well, and particularly for those who are. I love the way you say it. Transition, it transcends simple state in life. Yes. Or interest in in hobbies. I mean, especially for large parishes. It's a way that I can be really seen and known and concretely loved.

I mean, it's, these groups I think often turn into like, these are the people who make the casseroles When someone dies, when when you get sick, they're the ones who come 'cause they're the ones who really see you and know you. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Right. No, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I, I shared in my book now I should back up a little bit.

It's like lots of people, uh, are familiar with Renew Ministries because they had a really, really active small group program in the 1980s and nineties and they still exist today. I mean, I think they are pretty active in some diocese. I don't think they really do the spiritual multiplication piece. In fact, honestly, I know they don't.

I. Unless something has changed very, very, very recently. But my parish in the eighties before I, I went there, was really into renew and I didn't know it mm-hmm. Until I Right. I didn't know it though, until a new pastor said, it's like I go to these funerals and it's like, and all these renew people are coming out of the woodwork.

It's like, oh yeah, this person was in our renew group. I mean, those friendships lasted 40 years and they were real. Okay. And they kept meeting together. And I mean, that's huge. That's just huge. So, I mean, I, I give renew credit for really awakening the Catholic church in the United States to, uh, the power of small groups in parishes.

Focus really helped us out in terms of the spiritual multiplication piece, recognizing this could be even better if we expanded it right. And we really had this expectation that everybody in our parish would be part of a small group, at least for some time in their life, that this would be a really formative part of being an adult Christian.

Jim Jansen: It's just at a practical level, it's just a great way to deliver content too. 'cause I know so many of our listeners, the, those of us, like part of of what changed our life was an encounter with the word of God or an encounter with the teachings of the church. And man, if the only way we have to deliver those is either in someone's, you know, air bud isolation or in a large format once a week class, we're not gonna get it done.

But there is something about the small communal. Group that beside you. 'cause we've talked mostly about kind of like the social benefits, but it is an amazing content delivery vehicle as well where people can encounter the depth of the riches of the word of God and the teachings of the church. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: It absolutely can be. Right. And, and I think one of the things that we hear the most about adult faith formation is, at least from other adults, is like, I don't want to go back to school again. You know, they, they kind of resist it in that level. It's like, this doesn't even feel like school. Yeah. This is just sharing with each other and, and it's, it's just life.

Yeah. It's different. It's angled toward adults. It's not K through 12. Right. 

Jim Jansen: Right. It's living rooms. It's fire pits. Yes. It's comfortable porches. That's right, that's right. Okay, so we could do this. I'm gonna keep us moving 'cause like this is fantastic. But I, but I can feel, I can feel my temptation to nerd out and just stay here forever.

So, okay, so we've got four ways forward. Number one, radical hospitality meets first, proclamation number two, right? These kind of small groups, spiritual multiplication, really accompanying not just getting people into small groups, but accompanying them and their leaders so the groups can grow and multiply.

Susan Windley-Daoust: Right? 

Jim Jansen: That's two. What's next? 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Okay, so the third one really does have to do, you hinted at the organizational health piece and, and I'm just calling it, you know, this kind of mission refocus that meets organizational health. Again, this goes back to the idea of you're not going to become an evangelizing parish by accident.

Yes, you need to be directed there. You need to ask God to give you the vision for your parish. You need to understand the mission field, and you need to measure what is working and what isn't isn't. And you do that with a team. I mean, nobody can do this on his or her own if this is a lay person who's, you know, sort of leading the charge within the parish.

So you really need a team. And there are absolutely, um, some apostolates that, that do some remarkable work in this field. This, this is kind of their, their strength. Um, and the Amazing Parish is probably the best known one. I like a lot of what they do. I would say Evangelical Catholic has a certain degree of this Evangelical Catholic, honestly, as an apostate probably does the best combination of these things altogether.

But yeah, they, they, they do some team building pieces as well within their work. And I'm probably forgetting others too. Lots of people know about Catholic Leadership Institute. I mean, there, there's some of that going on there too. For sure. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. There's a lot of independent consultants. That is what we do, isn't it?

Yeah. Right. They're not known as well, but they're like, all right, father, who do you trust? All right. Who do you, you know, who, who has a set of gifts that's complimentary to your own that, that you can pull together? And that's, those are conversations, whether it's someone like you and I when we, when in diocesan roles or whether it's an independent consultant where it's just, okay, father, what's on your heart?

What's your dream? Or. Or youth minister or adult evangelization, you know, it's, it's not the clergy alone that, that need teams. There really is this, this is this beautiful vision of everybody is working together. There are teams of teams and they're all focused on the same mission. 'cause I feel like that's the, it's the kind of amnesia part of it that we've actually forgotten why we're here.

We've forgotten, you know, that literally the parish is this geographic mission field that like there is no backup plan. There's no other like group of people that are dedicated to the salvation of those souls. Like that's us, right? But we sometimes forget. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Right? And I think that comes out of a lot of just sheer busyness.

And there's a lot that lands on parishes plates. That's all the more reason, honestly, to take the time to get crystal clear as a parish, and particularly on the leaders of the parish as to what the mission is, right? And what you're doing that connects with the mission and what you're doing. That frankly doesn't, it's not necessarily evil or bad, but it's not connected to the mission.

So really, I mean, what I usually tell parishes is like, do less better. 

Jim Jansen: Yes. Oh, thank you for that. Do less better, do less better. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: And boy, it's a lot easier to say than to do I, I get it. But it is the key to everything because parishes in fact, generally do way too much. 

Jim Jansen: Well, especially. When, when you find yourself, again, if, and if you're not one of those weird anomalies that's blessed with immigration or a booming real estate market, chances are you have very limited leaders and you're all tired and you're all doing all the stuff.

So if you're gonna turn it around, the really hard decision is what will we stop doing? Yes. Because we cannot, absolutely. We cannot continue to do all the things we have been doing and give intentional, sustained effort to these new ways we, we have to stop some things. But that's hard. Pruning is hard.

Susan Windley-Daoust: Pruning is so hard, and it's also so completely necessary. If you even have a backyard garden, you know how necessary it is. Mm-hmm. Right? And Jesus uses this analogy. Practically all the time. I mean, it, it's really, it's, it's so important. It's so important. And I think there are ways to do it that are less painful than others.

But you can't not do it. 

Jim Jansen: Yes. You can not do, you can be wise. Yeah. You can be wise about it. Again, for those, yeah, those of us with a real kind of sensitive pastoral heart where we don't wanna tell anybody, no, we don't wanna hurt anybody's feelings. It's like, okay, this does not mean that you have to be a jerk.

Right. But what it does mean is you have to help people find the right seats on the bus. You have to call leaders forth and intentionally commission the right people for the right responsibilities at the right time. And, and honestly, although it's scary, it's more scary in our mind than actually doing it.

'cause when you help someone find the right seat, it's a joy and a relief for them. And if they're not where they're supposed to be, it means there is some place they're supposed to be. And when they get there, they're happier. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Right. No, that's abs That's absolutely right. And, and honestly, you could even, uh, I mean this here, here's your practical tip, or we were gonna talk about practical tips.

Here's practical tip for me anyway, I think it's easiest for parishes to do this if they basically put a lot of things on pause for six months to a year. Mm-hmm. Because then you begin to recognize with a little bit of distance, was this really a necessary ministry of the parish or not? Now, obviously, some things you can't put on pause.

Okay. You're not gonna put sacramental prep on pause. You know, you're, you're not gonna stop marrying people or burying people and you're certainly not gonna stop the liturgy, but .

Jim Jansen: That would be really awkward. It's like, well, we're so, so sorry about the loss of your We're pause. We're scheduling funerals for 2027.

Yeah, no, that's awesome. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: That be, that would be awkward. But you know, I mean, father John Ricardo, if people are aware of Acts 29, basically did that. Yes. With his parish when he introduced Alpha and the idea was to make room for Alpha, it's like we're going to put things on pause. That are outside of what I just named.

We're gonna put everything on pause until everybody gets through Alpha and then we'll make decisions. I thought that was pretty brilliant, 

Jim Jansen: honestly. Oh, it's fantastic. No, it is really, really good. Okay. Again, my temptation, like I wanna, I wanna stay here. We've got one more. We have more, right? So we've got radical hospitality meets first.

Proclamation number one. Number two, you know, the kind of small group, spiritual multiplication, accompaniment, model Number three, the organizational mission. Refocus. Like you gotta lead outta teams, and you have to know why we're here. People have to work together. Drum roll please. What's number four?

Susan Windley-Daoust: Number four is to elevate signs and wonders. 

Jim Jansen: Mm. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: You can't foster them because they come from God. But I mean, you can foster the environment where they are noticed and honored and people point to them. There's some people who get really excited when I share this model and other people who just begin hyperventilating a little bit.

Jim Jansen: No, that's so good. Yeah, they're really uncomfortable. Talk about, just for those, those few people who are listening who aren't either super excited or afraid right now. What do you mean by signs and wonders? 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Yeah. Well, you know, signs and wonders is language is used in the book of Acts, literally all the time.

All the time, and it's what the first apostles and disciples were often noting, and to some degree, relying on the Lord upon in order to share the good news at that time. But by science, I wonders, I am talking about things like miracles. Let's go there. Okay. My miracles, I, I'm not saying it's like, okay, God, you know, we're praying for a miracle.

Actually do that. You know, I know people who are scared to pray for miracles. There are circumstances where. That may absolutely be the right thing to do. You may not get that May, God may have another way of answering that prayer, but yeah, when you pray for big things, it makes a statement about your faith in God.

Right? Theresa Avila said this exact thing, it's kind like praying for big things, honors God. Oh, that's so good. Like, so why aren't we praying for big things? Let's not be afraid of praying for the big things. Like, you know, real healing, physical healing of somebody who's dying in your parish. We've all been there, frankly, where, where there's somebody who is dying and it's, you know, especially tragic because they're young or they have a lot of people depending on them or something like that.

Well, okay, can we do something more than cook them a casserole? You know? Yeah. And I'm, I'm not knocking that because those, those. You know, thick realities of, of bearing each other's burdens is real, but, but we can rely upon the power of God. I think Eucharistic adoration is a sign in wonder, and probably the most common way that this gets lived out in perish life is that people recognize in adoration that the Lord is present in a way that leads to contemplation, leads to encounter.

Suddenly our faith becomes a whole lot more than words that we say or acts that we try to muster up and do. You know, it becomes this living relationship. So there's that, and I think witness is a big part of signs and wonders because most people have a God story in their life. In fact, I would say everybody does, but some people have really big and we don't.

Any place in most of our parishes for people to share those stories. And they're meant to be shared. You know, they edify us When we hear how God has been active in other people's lives. It's deeply encouraging. It's a great learning moment. There's no downside to this. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, it's powerful. It's very powerful.

It's so powerful. It's very, very powerful. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is like right in the book of Revelation, the talk about this small, overwhelmed by her circumstances church, it says they defeated the dragon or the serpent by Okay, yes. The, the blood of the lamb. So you could hear the Eucharistic reference there, and by the word of their testimony.

Right. By simply sharing what the Lord has done in my heart and my life. I mean, it, it changes things. It really does. It opens other hearts and minds. It, it emboldens those of us who already believed, but were maybe getting a little tired. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: That's absolutely true. And I mean, I'm gonna tempt you a little bit more here, but I'm not gonna talk about this now.

It's like, I, I, I do write about this in, in other places and talk about it pretty freely, but I was, I was so blessed to receive a, a miracle in my own life, and it was the healing of my hearing. I, I had lost all of my hearing in one ear in such a way that, you know, doctors said, it's like, this is not coming back.

It's actually not possible. I mean, the cells are dead, but God, right? I mean, somebody prayed with me and then I prayed later on that day for healing and I received it. No one was no more shocked than I was, let me tell you, because I just didn't think that was possible. 'cause I had never heard of it happening in the present day.

I literally had not. Even though I completed my PhD by that point, I literally have not. 

Jim Jansen: Well, but it is, to your point earlier, it is happening, but it's often, it's totally happening, uh, hidden and private and there's a space for that, but there's also a space for a communal rejoicing and praising. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: No, it's absolutely true.

I mean, when I began telling, I mean, I, I received a miracle that I could not hide, you know, because people knew that I couldn't hear. So I mean, I had to explain it to people, but I would share what happens. Like, well, what happened? It's like, well, um, I prayed to the Lord and I woke up one morning and stood up and all my hearing came back, back in a big pop, and they would look at me and it's kind, you know, I have a short story to share with you.

Yes. And is a scene, I mean, not the exact same story, but I mean, it is another miracle story. It's like I just realized like, oh my gosh, we're all sitting on our miracles. Now, what would a parish be like? 

Jim Jansen: Oh, so good. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: If we actually gave people space to share how God has been active in their lives. And I know not everybody has a story like mine, but people do have stories about, you know, when I lost my parent, you know, God got me through the next year.

It's like, and that's powerful too. You know? I mean, we need to hear the whole range of how God has acted in people's lives. 

Jim Jansen: Right. The, the ordinary sometimes are even more powerful in, in reinvigorating our faith. Okay. Susan, our, our time is totally flying here. I just, I wanna give you. I wanna give you like, kind of two things here.

I, I love, you know, you wrote your book during the pandemic and, and then you've got this kind of like, very, very, uh, fun, maybe not the right way to describe it, post pandemic, kind of like chapter or like end, end note. And one of the things you say, it's like, no, I'm serious. We have to really start evangelizing.

And, and I feel like one of the biggest obstacles right now is, you know, I use a fancy word but equivocation, that when people talk about evangelization, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Our donut Sunday, that's evangelization. And I like donuts. And I'm not saying that in some way, shape or form, the Lord isn't present and that he couldn't use that.

But like, you're not talking about donut Sunday when you talk about evangelization. I just wanna give you a chance to speak to those who maybe they know, but. But being overwhelmed, the prospect of starting to evangelize, they're already tired. They don't, just don't have the energy to learn something new.

Can you speak to them? 

Susan Windley-Daoust: Yes. You know, there's never going to be a perfect time to start. There really isn't. That last chapter that I wrote, uh, the, the end of the book really was born out of a certain amount of frustration, I'll be honest. Yeah. Uh, of hearing people like, well, but we're still getting over the pandemic and we're still getting over the pandemic.

And I get it. It was hard. I was there, it was very, very hard. And I do understand, but we could have more than one crisis at a time. And this is a genuine crisis. Yeah. Okay. This is a genuine crisis. And you know what, it's not exactly like the Lord came to us, that the Son of God, incarnated. At what, by anybody else's eyes would've been the perfect time, right?

I mean, it was in Israel, which was an occupied country, and everybody was struggling and they didn't have any of the ways of, you know, communication that we are blessed with now, right? I mean, it really is not by most people's, most human standards the perfect time. But in God's eyes, it was clearly the perfect time, right?

It was the appointed time. And we are in an appointed time. We all were born for this moment, and we are all in a very particular place for a reason. So if you are a pastor or a lay leader or somebody sitting in the pews and you're thinking, I, I wish. I wish, I wish it could be different, but it's like, you know what, try to bracket the butt part.

Okay. Yeah. And, and really lean into that desire because that desire comes from God and you really have to step out in faith that God is going to give you what you need to take the next step. And if you don't know what that next step is, that's understandable. And that's why I would say your next step is really to get a friend. 

Jim Jansen: Yes, yes.

Susan Windley-Daoust: Who has the same desire on their heart? And ask the Lord honestly to point you to who you need to speak to next. You know, this really boils down to not our own tiredness, which frankly I feel as well on a regular basis, but how much faith do we have that the Lord wants his church and his parishes to thrive even now?

Maybe even, especially now, it's like I cannot believe in a God that does not want thriving parishes. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, right. I'm reminded, oh, I'm, I'm reminded of the beginning of the catechism in every time and season. Right. The, the Lord is laboring to bring people to him himself. Right. You know, it's like if today you hear his voice harden, not your heart, like Right.

Like, now is the acceptable time. And I mean, when you think about, I mean, John Paul II Benedict, I 16th, Pope Francis, like how many you, you just, we briefly, men mentioned kind of the magisterial documents, but the clarion call that has been coming from our popes and historic saintly popes at that, I mean, what, what more do you need to know now is the time.

Susan Windley-Daoust: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, Jim, what, what, what, what more, what more do we need? Other than, you know, it did take me until I was, I wouldn't say in the twilight of my career, but I mean, I, I was absolutely very middle aged when the Lord took the two by four to me. So, I mean, I, I've gotta have sympathy for people who are not seeing it the same way.

'cause I was that person for so long. But sure, on the other hand, we really, truly can be so much better at evangelizing than, than where we are right now. And I believe it's entirely doable. Uh, I think we've been given so many opportunities and models and pathways to, to figuring that out. Plus we have the Lord.

Jim Jansen: Yep. And, and even if you're tired, Jesus is not, I don't wanna project on anybody, but my own story is like, it's when I buy into the lie that I'm alone. That it starts to feel over too overwhelming and too, you know, too heavy. That's maybe a really nice, kind of like transition here. I just wanna give you a chance to talk a little bit about the Mark five 19 project, because you've kind of, you've dedicated yourself to coming alongside people and helping them.

I mean, I just loved when we first talked, like, you roll up your sleeves, you spend a lot of time, you know, in parish basements, underneath fluorescent lights with hard metal chairs just projecting here, but whatever, right? Like helping people, pastors, the lay leaders, begin to make these shifts. So talk a little bit about your work and then how can people connect if they wanna learn more?

Susan Windley-Daoust: Sure. So the nonprofit is called the Mark five 19 project, and Mark five 19 is when Jesus tells the healed Garris demoniac, go home to your own people and tell them what the Lord and his mercy has done for you. And I really take that line as a phenomenal perish evangelization, commissioning line because it's something that, it's very graspable for the vast majority of baptized Catholics.

It's kind, oh, so I just need to go home and go to my people, you know, whoever those people are around you, and tell them what the Lord has done for me. It's like if we all did that, we'd be well on our way. But the Mark five 19 Project really is dedicated entirely to helping parishes thrive and commit to becoming evangelizing parishes and do that through consulting.

We have a 10 month process called Mission Ignite. Because you can get a, a lot of the basic pieces in place in 10 months if you're really intentional about it. And, uh, I do some educational speaking because I'm an educator. I can't, I, I can't erase that part of my life. And I do love it. And it does help people connect the dots, which I think is something we do need a lot of in this culture.

It's like, oh, this is how we got where we are. Right? So sometimes when people understand that, it, it gives them the courage and the confidence to make the next step. So I enjoy doing that as well. But that's, that's what I do. And, um, we're, we're in it to win it. Jim. Yeah. I see this as really, really the rest of my life.

So we're on the web if you wanna see more about us. 

Jim Jansen: Yeah. We're gonna link, we will link to the Mark five 19 project. It's Mark five 19 project.org. Uh, we'll also link to your book, the, the Four Ways Forward by our Sunday Visitor. Great. Just very helpful. Again, I really appreciate just the, the particular gifting you bring as an academic to synthesize the patterns to really, clearly articulate Yeah, just how, how these ways, we didn't talk about this, but like, you need, you need at least three or four of 'em at play in, in one parish to see renewal.

So like, anyway, just like having these at, at play, what it does, it's very hopeful, very inspiring. Susan, thank you. Thank you for your work and thank you for spending time with us. 

Susan Windley-Daoust: No, thank you, Jim. This has been such a pleasure. One of the, one of the most fun podcasts I've done so far. Good, good, good, good.

People are like, how did it go? I'm like, I don't know. I had fun. 

Jim Jansen: Alright, everybody, you know somebody who needs to hear today's conversation, so you just wait till you get to a safe place where you're, you're not driving anymore and you can send it out. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast.

We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip dot arch omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.