[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Clip Cast. So today I sit down with Dr. Chris Bergal. Uh, Chris is the, uh, chancellor for the Diocese of Sioux Falls. Uh, he is an evangelization, uh, nerd, kinda like myself, uh, loves evangelization, catechesis, and so we have a great conversation talking a lot about the Catechumenal process, about right OCIA and how we welcome people into the church, um, how it really is the paradigm for all formation in the church.

So we talk a little bit about a clear path to discipleship. We talk about how you do OCIA, well, how do you help people when they enter the church stick and have a meaningful experience, how that they can change the entire parish. We nerd out a little bit about, uh, leadership teams and, uh, leadership models.

Uh, Patrick Lencioni, all sorts of fun stuff, so you're gonna love today's conversation. Take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission.

Let's go.

Dr. Chris Bergal, welcome to the Equip Cast. How you doing today? 

[00:01:19] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Doing well, Jim. Good to see you. Thank you. 

[00:01:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah, it's really good. I'm really glad. I've been excited for this conversation for a while. Uh, we've had a couple of things professionally lately that have brought us together. So we've had, uh. A lot of hangout time.

I mean, we met what it was, 2017, right? 

[00:01:35] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yeah. In Orlando, Florida. 

[00:01:37] Jim Jansen: Orlando, Florida, which is, of course, that was my first day on the job, which I feel like I now need to explain. 

[00:01:42] Dr. Chris Burgwald: You know, Jim, and do you remember, I mean, who doesn't wanna be in Orlando, Florida on July 1st, second, third? 

[00:01:49] Jim Jansen: I know. 

[00:01:49] Dr. Chris Burgwald: The perfect time to go to Orlando.

[00:01:51] Jim Jansen: Yeah, it was, although it was, they're nice accommodations, right? So for all the, all the, everyone's like, what are they talking about? It was the United States, uh, conference, convocation, convocation on the new evangelization. So convocation, uh, it was great. I mean, really a beautiful moment. I, I think for the, for the church in the United States, all focused tr trying to kind of, uh, uh, absorb this call for evangelization.

I mean, Evangel, Gaudium, the joy of the gospel of Pope Francis, that was all very fresh and we were just all kind of trying to absorb it and we. I think we met at breakfast and then we've had Yeah. Time together recently for everybody else. Right. Who wasn't with us in Florida. Who are you? 

[00:02:33] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yeah. Who? That's my line.

I use that all the time. I, uh. Uh, so Jim, I, I'm the, uh, Dr. Bergal Chancellor for the Diocese of Sioux Falls. Uh, been in the Diocese of Sioux Falls for 23 and a half years, but the vast majority of that time, like 23 ish of those years, uh, were involved in our, what is now called the Office of Discipleship and Evangelization.

Most of my time in the office was in adult formation. Mm-hmm. Uh, but the, uh, the last five-ish years were as Director of Disciples formation, but that's what I do. And you asked. Who am I? Which is a very different thing. Yes. Uh, so, um, born and raised in central Minnesota outside of a small town called Crosby, which is in the Brainer Lakes area.

It's the middle of the state. Canada is still way further north as I remind people long ways to go to get to that far north. Hey there. Now you betcha. Um, cradle Catholic went to the University of Minnesota as an an article engineering major. Um, stopped going to mass the first Sunday I was there. So faith was, we went to mass every Sunday growing up.

Um, but like a lot of families. That was the extent of my own, um, of, of my family, and that's what my parents mm-hmm. My mom was a convert. My dad, that's how he was raised. So we just did what the Bergal had always done. Mm-hmm. Uh, but, you know, in the early nineties, by the early nineties, that wasn't enough, um, for at least this young man when he went off into the big wide world, um, had a, I I won't go into all the details, uh, unless you want me to now or later, but, uh, rev, a reversion my junior year, which prompted me to want to study theology, discern the priesthood, uh, for, for a time.

But, uh, went to Francisco University of Steubenville to finish my undergrad in theology. Uh, and then went to Rome to the Angelica, um, the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas, run by the Dominicans St. Thomas Order. Mm-hmm. Uh, where I, uh, ultimately received a doctorate in sacred theology, dogmatic theology, a doctorate in dogmatic theology.

And then did a couple little things before making our way to Sioux Falls. So Jermaine, my wife, Jermaine's from Ohio, we met at Steubenville. Um, we got married in 1999. So, um, as we're recording this, we've been married for 26 years. Nice. And five kids. They're all born and raised here in Sunny Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

[00:05:01] Jim Jansen: Okay. I mean, just the quick version, like what happened because like, you know, reversions in the nineties. It's kind of a varied lot, you know? Yeah. I mean, I'm, in my head I'm like thinking, it's like, okay, it's one of three things, you know? It was like, maybe, you know, maybe it was Scott Hanh, a father who keeps his promises.

No. Maybe it was like the audio tapes of like, but like, I'm curious, like what? 

[00:05:23] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Okay. I know it's my story, but I, I, what I'm about to say is looking outside for me, to me looking at it. Mm-hmm. It's such a good story, but I'll try to keep it short. Um, I, so I mentioned I stopped going to class or stopped.

Stopped going to mass. Uh, but we stopped because I stopped going to mass. You know, I, I, you know, a lot of people, young adults, you know, the quote unquote, sex drugs are rock and roll. It wasn't, it, there was nothing, you know, there was nothing really, really, really gravely sinful, um mm-hmm. You know, besides not going to Sunday mass.

I mean, that's. 

[00:05:55] Jim Jansen: Other than repudiating by, you know, connection to Jesus and his body. Good. Keep going Chris. We're all. 

[00:06:02] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Uh, yeah, but, uh, so I, I, um, because of that, because I wasn't, um, n. Worshiping our Lord and receiving his body blood and swollen divinity. That, that had certain, certain repercussions. Yeah, certain effects.

And for me, uh, I just became a lazy, lazy slob Jim. Mm-hmm. Um, my sophomore year, so I was in the honors program at the University of Minnesota. Again, aeronautical engineering. I was a valedictorian of my high school, small high school class. I had scholarships galore. I didn't have to work, I mean, between some college savings mm-hmm.

And all these scholarships. My, my ticket was punched and paid for, um mm-hmm. My sophomore year, some I, I started on campus, but, uh, my roommate at the time, a good guy, uh, uh, Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, Jason, uh, oh. 

[00:06:51] Jim Jansen: Yeah, there we go. 

[00:06:52] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Uh, good guy. Jason and I and two other friends from our freshman year rented a, a house off campus.

Um, and my, my lack of rootedness and groundedness in the Lord started to manifest itself. School got hard for the guy, for whom school had always been easy. Mm-hmm. And when the tough get going, the bergal, well, the Chris Bergal quit is what we do. I'm a, I'm a perfectionist Jim, which basically means when it gets hard, I just quit. So I don't. 

[00:07:20] Jim Jansen: Well, yeah. 'cause perfection is in jeopardy then. Yeah. 

[00:07:22] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Right. Exactly. Exactly. 

[00:07:23] Jim Jansen: Oh, I remember the, the first time I realized how often I self-sabotaged because I knew if I really tried and then I didn't succeed. I had in my own head, right. Like actually failed. And it was like, oh, I'd rather self-sabotage and not really try than, so I can, yeah, I can relate.

[00:07:43] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yep, yep, yep, yep. Um, the, the mantra that we have here, as many you do, uh, freedom to fail was not a reality for me, um, in college. So, um, here's the epitome of my laziness, Jim. Uh, and I use this example often in 12 days in November, December of 1993. Yep. 1993. In 12 days I watched the movie Die Hard 14 times.

[00:08:15] Jim Jansen: Wow. And this is one, one Die Hard, not like Wow. 

[00:08:19] Dr. Chris Burgwald: The original Die Hard 14 times. The original die because I never had cable TV growing, growing up. So I, cable tv, I'm a lazy slob. I don't wanna go to class 'cause it's too hard. So I get up and I turn the TV on and watch Die Hard Again and again. The Christmas Classic, of course, die hard. 

[00:08:31] Jim Jansen: Right? Yes. Yeah. 

[00:08:33] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Uh, time and time again. So, um, I, I lose my scholarships. I have to start working fast forward the following fall my junior year at the u uh, the University of Minnesota, and I'm walking across campus and I quote unquote, happened to be stopped by a couple evangelical Protestant students. They, they were a kin, I think, you know.

Yeah. Today what we think of, they were, they were basically the, the early nineties evangelical Protestant equivalent of focus, not missionaries, but focus students who are involved. Yeah. And they're, they're doing outreach on campus. Uh, so these were fellow, I didn't know them, but they were fellow students.

Right. And they invited me to get involved in a Bible study. And this is where, I'll just cut it really short. Just that that process began an intellectual awakening, which led to a spiritual awakening. Um, it started with me getting on the phone to my confirmation teacher, who was a permanent deacon that I grew up with, and my dentist.

'cause remember, I'm from a small town as in his name. 

[00:09:32] Jim Jansen: Of course. 

[00:09:33] Dr. Chris Burgwald: So I called Dr. Phil and said, Dr. Phil. 

[00:09:36] Jim Jansen: Wow. Thank you, Dr. Phil. 

[00:09:38] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Uh, the, the book, the first book that I read was Catholicism Fundamentalism by Carl Keating. 

[00:09:43] Jim Jansen: Yes, that's what I was gonna guess. Yes. 

[00:09:45] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yep, yep. 

[00:09:45] Jim Jansen: It was on the list. 

[00:09:46] Dr. Chris Burgwald: And then that, so that started that just, that was October of 94.

And that just awoken, awoken a, awakened a hunger in me that just again, um, learning, reading readings, just devouring. I'm intellectually curious. Mm-hmm. I suffer from divisive vein curiosity, frankly. Yeah. I just start reading, reading, devouring, devouring, devouring. And that led to me to going to confession for the first time in two or three years.

Um, and returning to the practice of the sacraments, frankly, in a far deeper way than I ever had before. Mm-hmm. Starting to really mm-hmm. Prey on my own for the first time. Really in a consistent way in my life. Yeah. I go home, uh, my parents like, what's going on with our son? They're oldest, sort of like, yeah, all these intellectual academic accomplishments.

What's going on with him? He's gonna drop outta the U and he's thinking about the priesthood. They were just, I, I get it from the outside, a little concerned. They sent me to a surgeon back home, Dr. Paul Verson, um, and Paul Paul's oldest, um. Dave, it's two years behind me. In high school. We knew of each other in high school, um, but we, we weren't friends at all.

Um, but Paul had operated on both my parents great bedside manner. My mom and dad knew he was a good Catholic guy, sent me talk to him. Paul had sent, Dave was going to Steuben Francis, university of Steubenville. And Paul's own faith was set on fire by Scott Hans. So Paul's like, yep, yep. Have you ever heard of Scott Hahn?

No. Who the heck is this guy? Have you heard of Franciscan? No. What, what is this place? So he tells me about it, Jim. I go home and I tell my mom, mom, I'm gonna go to school in Ohio. And she started to cry because for her, I'm gonna send her to Dr. Seaverson to ground him to fix him. 

[00:11:29] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:11:30] Dr. Chris Burgwald: The religious deep end here. And instead I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna go to school, you know, a thousand miles away, 16 hours away. Like, that's not what was supposed to happen outta this conversation. 

[00:11:41] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Wow. Oh, that's awesome. Well, and I appreciate, it's just funny, it's like. You know, God is of course at work all over the place, but there's just a number of things.

Scott Hanh, Carl Keatings, you know, like early nineties. Those were, there's just so many people whose stories were sparked, uh, by that. So. 

[00:12:02] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yep. 

[00:12:03] Jim Jansen: Okay. So fast forward, you grow up, you're now the chancellor of the, you know, of the, which every little boy dreams of Right. Chancellor for, uh, the Diocese of Sioux Falls.

You've got a lot of different hats you mentioned. Of course, you know the evangelization role, which has really been, I think we know where your, your heart is forming people. A lot of that is connected to OCIA and I want to talk about, uh, OCIA because the order of Christian initiation for adults. 'cause I know that's not necessarily, uh, universal.

What is OCIA? There's something happening. Let's just start here. Kind of big picture. There's something happening with people entering the church. Um, you know, maybe people have heard about it in France, Korea, Belgium, and in the United States. 

[00:12:49] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yeah. 

[00:12:50] Jim Jansen: Uh, what's going on? 

[00:12:52] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yeah. So a, a lot of people are asking that question.

Uh, there's a lot of different answers. You know, I don't know this for certain, I haven't done a detailed sociological analysis of all the people coming into the church for the last, you know, handful of years, really. Um, really especially the last two or three years, the countries that you mentioned, including our own, uh, the UK as well, just the number of, of, of young adults.

Young adults. 

[00:13:15] Jim Jansen: Right? Yeah. 

[00:13:15] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Coming into the church, um, especially through what we're now calling the new, just a new translation, the OCIA process, um, is really like, like nobody saw this coming. What, what, what's going on? Right. My read, uh, again, because we're talking about first world countries, uh, predominantly here, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. All first of all countries. My take is, um, you know, uh, several years ago, sociologists coined the term, the data of despair, uh, and the deaths by despair. You know, tracking all the, the ways that you can quantify the metrics, demonstrating there's a lot of despair in the first world, including our country.

Mm-hmm. You know, the opioid crisis, uh, alcohol addiction, drug addiction, abuse, spousal abuse. Mm-hmm. Child abuse, and of course, sadly death by suicide. Uh, and, and, and, and why is that? Because we're starred for meaning. Uh, this is, this is my conviction and I'm not alone in this. Uh, it makes aton of sense to me that because we've, we've, our culture has sold us, so to speak, um, and we've fallen for this lie that I make my own meaning.

Mm-hmm. Um, people, people don't, they're not making their own meaning. 'cause you can't actually make your own, meaning you can try, but that's only gonna work for so long. So my, my belief is that people, that people are, um, they've been sort of tried what the world has to offer. 

[00:14:40] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:41] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Um, and their hunger and thirst for the transcendent, which is ultimately God himself, uh, has not been satisfied.

And so they're turning to the church, which is still the, you know, when you think of. Maybe, you know, a lot of people talk about this, you know, truth. Well, that's all relativism good relativistic, but beauty still attracts, you know, Bishop Baron, he's on about beauty. Um, and he's building on among others the theologian, Hansworth Alazar, who really, and, and, but Ratzinger JP two been talking about the power of beauty, the beauty of the lives of saints, and the beauty of church art and sacred art and architecture that was Ratzinger slash Benedict.

Uh, and I think that's what it is, people, the beauty that the church has to offer, uh mm-hmm. In, in her sacred art, in the lives of her saints, in her teachings, the splendor of the truth, uh ha has actually is breaking through the sort of malaise mm-hmm. That is, is, is really covering the hearts of much of humanity in the first world, at least these days.

And people are recognizing, no. The church is saying, here is the meaning that you've been longing for. And ultimately, of course, it's God himself. But that's what I think it is, Jim. I think people are recognizing I can't make my own meaning, and they're able to see that the church actually offers me the meaning that's already out there that I've been yearning for.

[00:16:03] Jim Jansen: Right. And it, and it's like, there's gotta be a better way. What what's fascinating about this and, and tell me again, it's like we, we need some, if you're listening and you're a data nerd, if you're a professional sociologist, like, we really need you to study this. You know, I'm thinking about some of the, you know, some of the, our, our hefty, uh, heavyweight academic u universities, uh, to study some of this for, in many cases.

What's so fascinating about this is this isn't a result of like, like evangelization efforts 

[00:16:37] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yeah. 

[00:16:37] Jim Jansen: On our part, right. It's people that have, like, they've just kind of gotten. Sick of the blah of their life and they want more. And the church is still this thing that stands for something that is beautiful, that it is this soci society that's attractive.

And so even before we got a chance to give them an invitation or invite them in, they're coming to us. Uh, which which is even more astounding for those of us who are like, oh, we're really trying to evangelize and, and now it's like, I mean, how beautiful, right? That the Lord is like, and I'm just gonna bring some of them to you.

Okay. So when they come that they have this OCIA, there's this, how do you become Catholic, right? The order of Christian initiation. What does it, what does it look like? Uh, what even is that? I mean, what is, I know by the way, just if anybody's like, man, is Jim even qualified for his job? I'd be like, I do know.

But like, Chris, give the orientation here. What, what is OCIA? What is this process? 

[00:17:37] Dr. Chris Burgwald: So, uh, OCI, it, it stands for the Order of Christian Initiation for, uh, of adults. And many people have heard of RCIA. Well, why are we changing the name? What's my analogy? I think it's the, the appropriate one is this is just like 2011 at mass when we realized, you know, well prior to 2011, like, you know, our English translation of the mass isn't quite as good as it could be.

We're gonna, we're gonna improve, right? 

[00:18:02] Jim Jansen: We made some updates. Yeah. 

[00:18:04] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yeah, there we go. And this is, this is just a recognition that, because in Latin, it's order room or rum. I remember the Latin is right now, to be honest. Um, but it is the order. It's literally order of sation of adults. Uh, so our English translation just reflects what the Latin news says.

Uh, the, it, it finds its origins, uh, in, at Vatican two. Mm-hmm. Um, at Vatican two, there was a recognition that, especially in sort of the primary proclamation of the gospel in parts of the world that had never heard of Jesus Christ, never heard the gospel message, the prima, that there was a need for a more robust formation process for would be Christians.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and the church in wisdom said, huh, I think we've done this before. Aha. We have, it's been about 1500 years since we used it, but let's pull this tool out of the, the bottom of the toolbox, dust it off. That's the, and that's the catechumenate. So, mm-hmm. OCIA is the, the modern, um, restoration of this ancient process of formation that the church used in its early centuries when she was encountering pegging cultures, not Jewish cultures, pegging cultures that knew nothing of the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, all those guys.

They didn't know, uh, who that God was, so they didn't already have, it's, it's one thing for, for a, a Jewish Christian to evangelize his Jewish brother, sister Cetera, proclaim the gospel that Jesus is a messiah. Like they're, they're, they're 90% of the way there. Yeah. 

[00:19:40] Jim Jansen: They're like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah. 

[00:19:42] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yeah. 

[00:19:43] Jim Jansen: So I can have a, I can have a, a bacon cheeseburger now. Sweet. 

[00:19:47] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Right. It's another thing entirely when the same Jewish Christian is trying to talk to the Pagan Roman, who knows nothing of the God of Abraham, Isaac. So the church recognized there is a complete conversion. It, it's not just a matter of recognizing that Jesus is the long awaited for Messiah. 'cause my pagan Roman neighbor wasn't waiting for the Jewish Messiah.

[00:20:12] Jim Jansen: Right. 

[00:20:12] Dr. Chris Burgwald: So there is, there is a whole, not only intellectual, but moral and spiritual conversion metanoia. Right. That has to happen. And that does not happen overnight. 

[00:20:25] Jim Jansen: Right. There's a lot of habits that have to be changed. 

[00:20:28] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Exactly. A ton of habits, um, that have to be changed, new ways of living. So the church developed in a number of places.

The spread, this practice spread really quickly, uh, to major urban centers in the Roman Empire. The Mediterranean basin developed a multi-year process by which those people who were intrigued and intrigued and by and attracted to the gospel of Jesus Christ, by which they would be formed. To receive the sacraments of initiation and then some post baptismal formation as well.

So a multi-year, we're talking three, four plus years. Mm-hmm. In total from when you first start that process to when you finish that, that, that initial post baptismal formation process. 

[00:21:16] Jim Jansen: Okay. And I just have to like, just, just like state, because some people are like, so not just like, I'm gonna get instruction, uh, couple of classes, you know, from, from the associate pastor on how to be Catholic.

Right. I mean, this is, this is a restoration of a process that was ancient, which is partially what I find so fascinating. I mean, this is like, I feel like, okay, it's 2026 and we're now like. The, the church's rediscovery of her missionary identity, both to the nations, those who've never heard about Jesus.

And then of course the new evangelization, those of us who knew and kind of walked away for a while. Um, this is like, it's the 1960s and the church is like not yet rediscovered her missionary identity, and yet we're already being prepared to welcome and walk with people through this full conversion of life.

Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I, I find it fascinating that church was recognizing this need decades before it, it, it was maybe experientially felt by more than just a few cutting edge missionaries. 

[00:22:33] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yeah. So this is one of my, um, this is a whole, uh, a whole rabbit hole that I will not go all the way down.

Uh, the short version of this is, yeah, Jim Vatican, two big fan. Big fan Vatican two. 

[00:22:44] Jim Jansen: Big fan. Um, so of, of the real Vatican two. 

[00:22:48] Dr. Chris Burgwald: The real Vatican two. Yeah. This is where, and there's this, all this needless con, this just, this is like the faith science debate. I mean, what, this is a needless debate. Yes. If you read the documents and if you, if you read the contemporary Why Vatican Two and everything, I'm with those who have been saying for a long time that, uh, j John Pope St.

St. Pope John the 23rd, um, intuitively inspired by the spirit or whatever it was. Recognized there's a cultural crisis coming. 

[00:23:18] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:23:18] Dr. Chris Burgwald: And the church needs to be prepared for this. So Vatican two was not called like Trent in response to a crisis in the church or in the world. Mm-hmm. The Vatican two was called in anticipation of a crisis in the world and, and also therefore in the church.

Um, so that's my firm conviction. I mean, J yeah. JP two said that Vatican two is the great gift of the, of the spirit to the church of our time. And I'm. I'm with JP two on about 99% of things. 

[00:23:44] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that would be a fun conversation. Like what the heck is the 1% that you're not with him? Is it Polish food? Is it Polish desserts?

Probably that's, anyway, but yeah, I, it, I mean, and I'd go so far as to say like, listen, if you're not a fan of the, the real teaching of the Second Vatican Council as discerned by the writings of the second Vatican Council, then you're, you're not with the church. I mean, you, you, you, you really are in some sort of either formal or kind of material schism where like, this is what the church is saying.

And you know, John, the Saint John the 23rd Saint Paul ii, Saint John Paul ii, Benedict Francis, I mean, if you can't find a place under those banners, you're having a hard time finding a place in in the church today. 

[00:24:37] Dr. Chris Burgwald: And, and, and I dunno if you really, I, I didn't realize this until the end of January, Jim, um, Pope Leo has dedicated his Wednesday audiences for 2026.

[00:24:46] Jim Jansen: Yes.

[00:24:46] Dr. Chris Burgwald: To Vatican two. 

[00:24:47] Jim Jansen: Yes. Uh, he's a big fan. 

[00:24:49] Dr. Chris Burgwald: He's a big fan, and he's walking through de bu the matic constitution of divine revelation. So, so I, again, that rabbit hole, I don't wanna get too far down, but, um, yeah, I, this 

[00:24:59] Jim Jansen: is, but yeah. But the point is like, it's a gift of the Holy Spirit, that the church is rediscovering how to help people transform their lives.

Even before we, we were beginning to mobilize around re evangelizing, it's like, yeah. And we actually have to have this plan for how we care for people, which is maybe like a nice jump off because. O-C-I-A-R-C-I-A, welcoming people instruction. It's just notoriously not done well. Right. Somebody is like, because, and the data, I, again, I don't know what recent data shows, but I, I'm thinking like, you know, for the last decade.

Somebody finally decides, okay, I want to become Catholic. And then they're gone a year later, half of them, right? I mean, like the stats have just been devastating bad. It's like what we're, we're finally getting someone to, to come and encounter the community and then we do such a poor job of orientating them that they're not practicing a year later.

That's, that's just devastating. OCIA again, is part of the solution to that. If you do it well, talk about what it means to do this right? Or what it means to do this process well.

[00:26:13] Dr. Chris Burgwald: A full complete implementation of OCIA is what's required in order for OCIA to bear the fruit that it was intended to bear.

Mm-hmm. Uh, it's a restoration of Agent Catechumenal model, which was developed in response to a pegan culture where we live in a neopagan culture. So, amen. That's why it's not enough just to learn some new faith facts. I need a complete re-imagining of reality. Um, a reorientation to reality. So O-C-I-A-A-A full, again, if you actually read the rights, uh, the, the order, the, the various rights, um, if you read the book, that is the Order of Christian Initiation of Adults.

Uh, there's, there's various stages and, and we just tried, I, in at least our very American approach to try to create efficiencies and cut out fluff. We've sort of like compressed it down, but it just doesn't work as well as it mm-hmm. As it well as it does when you do a full, a full throwed implementation.

So you've got these various stages. The Precatechumenate is the first stage, and it's very much led by the, would be Christian, the would be Catholic. Mm-hmm. The, the inquirer, so to speak. They have questions, they're getting their answers. They have it enrolled in a formal, this is the ideal implementation, right?

There's not a formal class. They just come and go as they want until they get to support. You know what, my, my basic questions are, have been answered. I want this. And then they enter into the next stage, which is the more, which is the catechumenate proper. This is where now they've sort of given over control, they've been in, in the driver's seat, and now they've gotten outta the driver's seat, and they're receiving systematic, uh, initiatory formation in the basics of the faith, and according to the order that's supposed to start during the Easter season, and conclude a year later at the Easter vigil.

According to the, according to the order, um, the Catechumenal, the, the Catechumenal phase should last at least. It says at least one year. And, and here again, you will use the word early on, Jim, uh, of accompaniment. You are in OCIA for as long as you need to be. 

[00:28:30] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:32] Dr. Chris Burgwald: You're in a, again, a, a, a by the book implementation.

It's not a eighth month or nine month process necessarily. It, it could be for some people. Um, but for the, for the typical person, they, they're in until they are in their own estimation and in the mind of the church until they're adequately formed to receive the sacraments of initiation. I'm not, I'm putting my glasses on my nose and you must do more.

You, it's not good enough. You're not you weekly. What is wrong with you? You know, it's not a sort of like harsh, like no, this is a mother. Caring for her adopt would be adoptive children wanting to make sure that they understand what it means to be a Christian and what it means to be, and wanting to, to give them everything that they need in order to make that decisive.

Yes. At the Easter vigil, when they are baptized, potentially confirmed and, and, and, um, fully, uh, receive full entrance into the church. 

[00:29:31] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:29:31] Dr. Chris Burgwald: And then there's a whole nother year of post baptismal formation called, uh, the neophyte year mystagogy. Mm-hmm. Where now you're initiated into the realities that you're now experiencing.

So the pre-catechumenate lasts as long as it needs to. The catechumenate should last a, a year or more. And, and even the right talk, it might take two or three years of just catechumenate for somebody to be ready. And then you have another year opposed. So we're talking, you know, 3, 4, 5 years or more. And I want to emphasize for people who are like, oh my gosh, that's what it takes to become Catholic.

Don't think of it that way. Think of it as this is how much the church church wants to invest in and pour into the would be Catholic. 

[00:30:17] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. Good. 

[00:30:18] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Not just would it That's good. This is how you live. Because OCI is not just Father Smith meets Jackson. Here's some faith facts. It's liturgical, uh, it's pastoral and it's also intellectual or catechetical.. 

[00:30:32] Jim Jansen: Ooh. Okay. Break. Yeah, break those down. 'cause that's huge. Yeah. 

[00:30:36] Dr. Chris Burgwald: So, uh, I'll start with the, the, the last is the easiest people get it the most intellectual. Yes. You have to learn some stuff about who God is and who he calls us to be. That's the quote unquote classes. But we're not, we're not dis incarnate.

We're not brains in vats floating around, bumping into each other. We're embodied spirits. 

[00:30:55] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:56] Dr. Chris Burgwald: So I need to be formed not just in my intellect, but also in my body. And that's what the liturgy is, formation of the body, soul composite that we call the human person. So by, by going through these rituals, by participating at least partially in the mass mm-hmm.

By receiving all of these blessings that the order has available to us. There's, there's so many, yeah. Not sacramental graces, but so many actual graces that are mm-hmm. That, that could be showered upon the person who's going through. 

[00:31:30] Jim Jansen: Well and they're really meaningful. I want you to give some examples.

'cause like, because I know what you're talking about. Like, there's a, like an entrustment of the crucifix. There's an entrustment of the gospels, the, the creed. There's some, these beautiful moments which for many people just EnCap encapsulates and seals and symbolizes this spiritual journey that they've been on.

Yeah. So you pick your favorite, but give an example for us. 

[00:31:55] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Um, I don't have to my favorite. 

[00:31:59] Jim Jansen: Okay. 

[00:31:59] Dr. Chris Burgwald: But. 

[00:32:00] Jim Jansen: All favorites. Red, blue, you talk about whatever one you want. 

[00:32:04] Dr. Chris Burgwald: There are minor exorcisms as part of the catechumenate stage. Yeah, so there's a recognition of of demonic power over people. So minor, not full blown.

Don't think the movie the Exorcisms, don't think Hollywood, but just prayers of deliverance for people to be freed from demonic, oppress. Not full. Again, not talking about, not talking about formal, full blown exorcisms, but that's just a recognition again of cultural influence and cultural powers to cast those out.

[00:32:31] Jim Jansen: Well, and it's probably helpful to, to highlight two things you should say that 'cause some people are like, really? It's like, oh, well first off, let's not be quite so ethnocentric. So not everybody is from Nebraska and South Dakota. There are some people who their upbringing. Is like literally pagan, not, not in the, uh, like, oh man, I had a couple of, couple of bad years in college.

But like, no, like they literally worshiped their ancestors. They literally worshiped, uh, you know, demonic spirits in, you know, nature or in whatever. And when that's the culture you're coming out of, changing your name undergoing these kind of minor exorcisms are really meaningful. Yep. Um, and also again, talk to anybody who's tried to live life in modern America apart from God the demonic was a part of their life, right?

Yep. There, I mean, and they, even those who didn't necessarily grow up in a pagan, explicitly pagan culture, it's often a deeply felt need that's exceptionally meaningful, uh, as they go through those rights. 

[00:33:39] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yep. Amen. So, um, there's others, I, I realize I missed one of the stages. One of the ones that I love the most, frankly.

So the cate, so Precatechumen catechumenate, and then there's post baptismal Mystigogy. But before the Easter vigil, all of Lent, starting on the first Sunday of Lent is the period, period of purification enlightenment. It's, it's, it's a lent long retreat to prepare to receive the sacraments of initiation.

And it's during the pur period of purification enlightenment, by the way in which intellectual formation pretty much stops. It's spiritual and moral preparation to enter into the church. And that's where you have some of the things that you're talking about, the handing onto the creed, the handing on of the Lord's Prayer, which I think is probably one of my favorite word.

Mm-hmm. We just take that for granted. But there's a right around. This is what marks you as a disciple of Jesus Christ. You know, um, I think it's Luke's account of, uh, the Lord's Prayer where Jesus' disciples say to Jesus, um, Lord, teach us to pray. Just as John to his disciples. And it's not like, it's not like Peter and James and John didn't know how to pray.

They were faithful Jews. They knew how to pray, but different rabbis had different prayers that sort of marked them as, I'm a, I'm a disciple of Gamal. I'm a disciple of John the Baptist. Well, what's the prayer that marks that I'm a disciple of Jesus, of Nazareth? And that's where Jesus taught. Okay. This is actually a prayer that Mark's view as a disciple of mine.

Yeah. It's the, our father. And so this is one of the last things done in this time of intense preparation for the Easter vigil, the peer-to-peer vision, enlightenment, the handing on, if you will, of the Lord's Prayer. That's one of my favorite of these blessings, these little rituals that, that are sprinkled throughout the whole order.

[00:35:30] Jim Jansen: Hmm. Chris is, as we talk about like, okay, like what does it mean to do OCIA? Well, part of it is like, okay, there's clearly, and I'm kind of, you know, listing these out here. Solid intellectual formation. There's these moments of the, the rights, the, these rituals that Mark Key, uh, transitions, key stages, key moments in the spiritual journey of this individual.

Um. There's probably some other components that you might wanna highlight, but I know one of the things, again, people, even if just you have a cursory knowledge, you're like, oh yeah, there's a sponsor. Yeah, there's apon, which is a kind of a, a, a setup for accompaniment. Talk a little bit about sponsors and accompaniment.

[00:36:17] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yeah, so this is part of that third aspect, um, of, of OCIA, which, which I summarized under pastoral. Um, so again, I'm not just a, a dis incarnate brain in a vat floating around the hallways of my home and my workplace. Uh, I'm an incarnate being, and I, and I as such, the church. The church has always operated in a relational way.

Evangelization happens most fruitfully through relationships. So the church, in her wisdom, just as she learned centuries ago, looks at the Wouldbe Catholic, coming from a, um, more or less neopagan culture and says, we need to pair this person with at least, at least one other person who can actually walk with them.

Mm-hmm. And answer their questions and be a prayer support and just a shoulder to cry on. Mm-hmm. As need be. Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:11] Jim Jansen: It's in a model. 

[00:37:12] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Somebody who has been, what's that? 

[00:37:13] Jim Jansen: And a model, a model, you know, like, not, not that I'm already a saint, but like, Hey, I actually know the prayers that I know the gestures and I've lived some of this stuff.

[00:37:23] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Exactly. So this is somebody who's accompanying the, the catechumen through this whole process. I, as you said, modeling, but then being there just so just to walk, to accompany them, to break bread with them as accompaniment literally means. 

[00:37:40] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Okay. So Chris, I've got a hard question here, but before we get there, is there anything else in terms of the elements here?

No. Uh, okay. So what does this actually look like? Again, for some people? I'm, I'm just, again, I'm trying to like, you know, listen with the, the ears of somebody who is an OCIA coordinator maybe has been for a while. Uh, you know, maybe they're, again, maybe they're like, you know, the priests are in charge of this.

They're like, holy crap, this is not quite the way we've been doing it, and this sounds great, but how do you do this practically? 

[00:38:20] Dr. Chris Burgwald: And so the good news is it can be done there. There are many, many, many parishes across the country that have done it. So this is not just some theoretical, uh, very daunting sounding task that pie in the sky, like, oh no.

There are parishes that do that. And usually they do it by taking one of the different stages of the process, of the order and, and, and focusing on, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna build out this. So the catechumenate, um, there are parishes that just have renewed, but frankly revised. Mm-hmm. The catechumenate stage.

So it's just an ongoing year round catechumenate and somebody hops in whenever they're ready, they make that decision, I'm ready. They sort of join the catechumenate. Uh, and they're in there for as long as they need to be until that first Sunday of Lent, when they enter in, when they, when they participate in the right of election and they enter into the, that final period of purification enlightenment to enter it.

So a lot of parishes will start by implementing a year-round catechumenate. Um, others start by actually implementing a year-round pre catt. Mm-hmm. So more of the inquiry phase where it's just much more, and this can be where it's like just monthly q and a sessions or, Hey, you ever wondered about why a Catholic or you come in, a lot of people RCI because of marriage, right?

OCI, because of marriage, right? We've been coming to our parish for years, but wondered what it means to be Catholic. Here's this little informal q and a session. Or they're just, when somebody new comes into the parish, they get registered. You find out, oh, this person's not Catholic. Hey, can, would you be interested in learning more?

I can connect you with. Joe or Jane mm-hmm. For a cup of coffee. And that's where maybe sort of that sponsor type person 

[00:40:11] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm. 

[00:40:11] Dr. Chris Burgwald: They're, they're not there yet at all, but maybe it's just the one-on-one initial point of contact. And this is just sort of that welcoming ministry, if you will, which is an easy way to get into the pre-catechumenate.

Um, usually, usually it starts at one of those stages. But again, I, trust me, I know people who have, who have done this in their own parish and helped other parishes across the country sort of get to the, to, to a full, complete implementation of OCIA. It can be done. 

[00:40:40] Jim Jansen: Well, and that's part of what, uh, again, we both got very full day jobs, but that's part of what we do.

If somebody's like, okay, we wanna do this, that's what we do. We'll help you figure out where to start. Do you need to start with the pre-catechumenate? Do you have a lot of, you know, folks that are, that are kind of coming and there's an inquiry that you, you need to beef that up first? Or in your circumstance, does it make sense to really work on your accompaniment support, you know, and, and sponsors like, you know, we'll help you figure out how to make the transition.

Chris, I'm gonna ask a question here. I don't know if there's any data, uh, uh, any good data available on the different. Kind of quality of results of, of those who, uh, who have implemented this. But I know their stories, so share data if, if it exists. But I, I just wanna invite you to share some of the stories of parishes, like the difference in the feel and the experience both for the individuals and the community at large when they do this.

[00:41:41] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yeah. So I actually wanna focus on the, the, the, the impact on the parish. So, yeah, one of the reasons why this looks so daunting is because like, oh my gosh, in order for me to do this, I'm gonna need a lot more people. Yep, you will. And to quote our Lord, in his words, to St. Paul, he, Jesus has many people in this community, in this city, which in Paul's case was in Corinth.

Uh, Paul said, Jesus said to Paul, um, I have many people in this city. There are people with the gifts that are needed for, to accompany others, to form others in all sorts of ways in our parishes. Now, they might need some more formation first, but there are people, the Lord has put these people in your parishes 

[00:42:29] Jim Jansen: Yes.

[00:42:29] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Ready to be activated. Yeah. Um, they might not know that they're there. They might need some formation. Uh, yeah. But there are others who are ready to go and ready to be activated if somebody would ask them. So what I've seen, this is one of the most exciting parts for me, of a full blown implementation of OCIA.

The parish comes alive because it's being called upon because in so many parishes right now, it's the awkward like, oh. These people are standing up front in front of us. I have no idea who they are. They feel awkward. They're standing in front of it. But when, when I know from the get go, because there's this prayer chain that we're being invited, praying for these people, and when there's so many of my fellow Catholics and the pews who are participating in a variety of ways based on the charisms they have, mm-hmm.

In this whole massive formation process, it just gives life to the parish. 

[00:43:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:43:24] Dr. Chris Burgwald: That's one of the, for me, frankly, a, apart from the individual's exper, the, the recipient's experience, the catechumen's experience, uh, of going through this robust formation process, um, for what it does to the, uh, to the, the parish community.

That's what's excite that, that's what's exciting me as you asked me the question. 

[00:43:43] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, and I, I just have to like, I mean, you can, I think, can, you know, you can, I can see it on your face. You can, you can hear it in your voice. And I mean, that's my experience as well, where it's like, up until recently I struggled to find a place to utilize my gifts in the church, in, in my own parish.

And, and that's, you know, recent recently, I, I found that place and, you know, my pastor's invited me in some, some places, but like what I had to offer it, although you could say from a certain perspective, it was very needed. It, it wasn't being sought for. There wasn't an outlet for that. Uh, you know, my gifts to accompany people or as a teacher, it just wasn't, they just weren't needed.

And I feel like the, that, that is on repeat again and again and again. That there are individuals who love the Lord, who have gifts for teaching and accompaniment or just organization, just hospitality. And no one has called upon 'em for, for their gifts and, and they just lie dormant. And yes, it's an act of faith if you're a pastor or a coordinator or a leader to say, so we're gonna do this thing.

And by we, I mean, well, I don't know who's gonna do this with me, but Jesus, please help me find the we. But there is something about that conviction and that stepping on faith that surfaces those other leaders. 

[00:45:02] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Amen. Amen. 

[00:45:04] Jim Jansen: Chris, what's at stake if we don't do this. 

[00:45:07] Dr. Chris Burgwald: More of the same, and how's that working out for us?

[00:45:11] Jim Jansen: Yeah, no, I mean, that's really good. Okay, so what about the difficult conversations? Again, if somebody's been a part of this ministry, what sometimes feels hard is, oh no, they're actually not able to get baptized at Easter because they're in their second or third marriage and we just figured that out and now they're upset and we feel like we broke a promise to them and it's really awkward and, and, and all the stuff.

How, how do you deal with that? How do you prevent it? 

[00:45:47] Dr. Chris Burgwald: So this is to me where again, sponsors accompaniment and, and this is the downside of, of a sort of a presupposition that this is an eighth or nine month class that I go through where I come to class every week and learn some stuff. Yeah. And then enter in, this is supposed to be pastoral accompaniment and, and, and meeting the person where they're at and understanding who they are and what those difficulties are, and taking art as much time as we need to work through those things with them.

So obviously we know that many times that there's a regular marriage that were, and the annulment processes is required. Well, when the OCIA norm is a, is a, at least a 12 month, if not a two or three year process. 

[00:46:34] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:35] Dr. Chris Burgwald: It's, it's far different when Okay. Yeah. No, we have plenty of time. We're gonna work through this while you are involved in whatever stage they're in.

Pre cat, cat, whatever. Right? We're gonna work through this. 

[00:46:46] Jim Jansen: Yeah. It 

[00:46:47] Dr. Chris Burgwald: becomes that much more awkward and difficult than, um, like bunching up my shoulders and whatever right now, tense. When we just shrink this to an eighth, 9, 8, 8, 8 or nine month course. Yes. And again, I wanna emphasize, I get why we've done that.

People are stretched for time and so on. I don't want somebody who's an RC coordinator, like, well, this guy's just like dumping on everything that I've ever No, no. I, I get the practicalities, but, but if we try to do the full implementation things like people in difficult situations, we've got time and space and the formation necessary.

Right. To really accompany them and meet them where they're at and walk with them in the midst of those difficulties. 

[00:47:29] Jim Jansen: Right. Some of the difficulty it doesn't. Melt away. But the intensity of it. 'cause because why do people get offended? They feel like I don't belong. You're saying this choice that I made in my twenties.

Now you're saying that disqualifies me. We're like, no, no, we And, and what we're able to do is we're able to actually walk with people and they don't feel excluded. 'cause they're not being excluded. Yeah. There is. They are a part of the community. Even if they're not yet baptized or they can't yet receive communion, they, they actually are a part of the community.

So, so the, the sense of belonging is real. The sense of. A respect for this person's individual journey. That's not just lip service, it's real. The, the sense of like, hey, this is, this is you and God and this new family. We're gonna do this together. And that's real. It's not just lip service 'cause we're not on some artificial deadline.

[00:48:32] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So it just allows for, uh, to me, a, a a, a level of formation and accompaniment that our current more partial implementation just does not allow for or at least very easily. 

[00:48:46] Jim Jansen: I mean, Chris, I'm gonna take a take a risk here. In some ways, like, so there's a metaphor here. I'm gonna try this out so you can like, nah, no, not quite Jim.

But it's a little bit like, I think as Americans, when we hear the term process, we almost automatically think of like a, like in an Industrial Revolution assembly line process. And if you've ever watched any of the Bugs Buddy cartoons or any of those things, I'm thinking about like the I Love Lucy thing with the chocolate.

Part of what's funny and dehumanizing about that, that assembly line or that process, is you can't slow it down. You can't shut it off, and all of a sudden, you know, you're just being drowned in these chocolates. Look it up online. If you haven't seen the I Love Lucy skit, and this is not that. It's more like, Hey, there's this context that we've created for you to get your question answered.

To, to, to just, to sort out those things. And now we've got this, when you're ready and you wanna move into this next kind of context, you know, we have this context for you to begin to transform your thinking and your habits. And then when you're ready, we've, and, and, and these, these contexts, these almost like you can think of like a resort or something, and it's like, oh, I've got the, we've got the mud bathroom and then we've got the sauna room.

And I might be breaking the metaphor at this point, but we've got these contexts for you to do the thing that you need to do and when you're ready that we have a next step for you. 

[00:50:13] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yep. 

[00:50:13] Jim Jansen: But it decided to not an assembly line. Not a one size fits all process. 

[00:50:19] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. I you, you go through it, the Right.

So to me, Jim, the, one of the tools that both of our diocese is use Arch diocese, Omaha diocese, and falls, the pathway of discipleship, sort of from the threshold conversion share wadel. That's basically, um, a post baptismal application, uh, well pre and post of the Catechumenal mentality. Yes. Which is, uh, progressive in the sense of you're going through stages closer and closer towards, in the case of OCIA initiation into the life, into the Christian life.

[00:50:53] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:50:54] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Uh, and, and, you know, um, before Henry Ford, um, developed the assembly lane process for making cars, they were made one at a time. Mm-hmm. You brought all the parts to, you know, you had the, basically the, the, basically the, the axles and so on, and it was, it took a lot longer and it was far more expensive.

They, they still make, I think, my understanding is there are still some automakers that make cars that way. 

[00:51:20] Jim Jansen: Yes. Like Ford versus Ferrari. If you've seen the, have you seen it? It's a great movie. 

[00:51:25] Dr. Chris Burgwald: I haven't, I haven't. 

[00:51:26] Jim Jansen: Oh, it's really good. And I think it's mostly clean now. I'm like, oh crap. Did I just endorse something unhelpful?

No, no, it's good. I think Ford versus Ferrari, but you get the picture of the Italian Ferrari, like this art form of making an automobile. 

[00:51:42] Dr. Chris Burgwald: And that's, and I, and what I, my understanding is that Rolls Royce, you know mm-hmm. And Rolls Royce costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. They're still made that way, quote unquote handmade.

And who does it want? That's, that's the thing is I want to handcrafted. I want a handmade, I want to Right. Customize adaptive. For me, that's exactly what OCIA is meant to be. It's not assembly line, discipleship production. It's handcrafted, customized, personalized formation process for each in man, woman, child who walks through our door.

[00:52:12] Jim Jansen: Oh man. I mean, that's a, don't drop the mic 'cause neither of us actually own the mics, but that was good. That was such a good drop the mic moment. I mean, Chris, if I can maybe like tie like a final bow on this. I'd loved how you kind of talked about, okay. Discipleship Pathways a clear path to discipleship.

Uh, those are just a kind re-articulation of the principles and, uh, an application of this Catechumenal process, which I, I mean, I, I would say it's like this is in some ways like. What it means to preach the gospel, to walk with someone through this kind of conversion of life. This is about as fundamental save, maybe only the, the Eucharist in our liturgical worship.

This is about as fundamental as it gets like to be Catholic and, and when you have the eyes to see it, the Catechumenal process isn't just this thing that the non-Catholics have to do. It's like it is the Paschal mystery, right? It's the, you know, it's like, it is our identity as people who make and mature disciples.

It just begins to show up everywhere. And so I wanna make a case here. You can argue against me, but I feel like a rediscovery of how you do this well has the potential to renew every ministry. So I'm thinking like. Like, if I think you'd make a case here, like, Hey man, I, I'm, I'm in parish, and it feels like everything we're doing is a little off.

Sometimes on a bad day, it feels like everything's on fire. It feels like everything's broken. And if you feel that way, you're not alone. But if you're gonna fix something, maybe start with OCIA and let that culture begin to radiate out into your youth ministry, into your religious education, into your marriage prep, into your adult evangelization efforts, because it is.

It is kind of like a, a, a key, if you will, a pastoral key for doing all those ministries. Well, am I crazy or does, does that make any sense, Chris? 

[00:54:19] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Uh, you're not crazy, Jim, because that's exactly what the church says we should be doing. So. 

[00:54:23] Jim Jansen: Oh, yay. 

[00:54:24] Dr. Chris Burgwald: One of my great passions, which you can tell because my, uh, you, you can see that I sat up towards the camera more and, and I'm getting louder, which is always a sign.

Um, the church says that the catechumen is supposed to be the paradigm, the model for all forms of formation. 

[00:54:41] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Wow. Say, say that again. 'cause that's huge. 

[00:54:44] Dr. Chris Burgwald: The Catechumenal model is to be the paradigm for all other forms of formation within the church. 

[00:54:51] Jim Jansen: Boom. 

[00:54:52] Dr. Chris Burgwald: So what if instead of just a strictly age based formation processed you, you're this old, you go here.

Oh, you're that old. You go there. What if instead we Yeah. With within some degree, you know, children, teen, adult. What if we had a stage based approach to formation? 

[00:55:12] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:12] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Oh, the very simplified approach that many Catholics are familiar with, especially because of focus, but they got it from Crew Campus Crusade, but they got it.

They don't know it, but they got it from the Catechumenal model centuries ago. Yes. Wind build send. What if our parishes had, um, teen programs where you're at the wind stage, we've got something for you. You're at the build stage, we've got something else for you. You're at the send stage. We have a different thing for you, and we don't necessarily say that, but we just, we get to know the people.

Yes. We get a sense of where they are and then, hey, we wanna, I wanna invite you to this. 

[00:55:47] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:55:47] Dr. Chris Burgwald: That would be an application of the Catechumenal model. To post baptismal catechesis to our parish youth ministry programs. And that's exactly what the church invites us to do. So, yes, to me, if we, if we did a full implementation at OCIA, that that culture would spill out into every other aspect of parish life.

[00:56:10] Jim Jansen: Well, and what you're talking about is like, that's a parish that has a clear path to discipleship and people who are trained for accompaniment, who, who love to love people on their spiritual journey. Yep. Okay. I, I just wanna pivot here 'cause our time has totally flown, but there's some other, you know, like, like this has not been nerdy enough, but there's some other areas that actually, uh, Chris Bergal and Jim Jansen are nerdy.

I just wanna give you a chance to talk about teamwork and leadership. Um, that has been, I have been an admirer of the work, or say, not just the work that, that you and your team, uh, do up in Sioux Falls, but the way you do it, I mean, the way you approach leadership and teamwork. I'll just give you a chance to talk a little bit about some of your convictions there and your experience.

[00:57:01] Dr. Chris Burgwald: So, um, I've got a doctorate in theology, and along the way, Jim, I learned from St. Thomas Aquinas that grace builds on nature. So it's this, um, this theological principle that. What God's grace does is it renew it, it cleanses and renews my humanity and demonizes me. So God's grace is poured into my preexisting human nature to make me the beloved son or daughter of the Father that I'm called to be.

Mm-hmm. So grace builds on nature. So what this means in terms of the church is the church is an organization. So our parishes, organizations, our diocese, organizations, the all our apostolates, religious orders, schools, da, da, da, they're all organizations. Mm-hmm. Um, and as human organizations, we know something about human nature and, and, you know, a, a, a common phrase, in our day, in our country, best practices mm-hmm.

We know just at a human level, what it looks like for an organization to run well, to be led. Well, we know what it looks like for leaders to lead well, uh. In a healthy way where you've got organizations that are not only effective, they're smart, but they're fruitful, they're healthy mm-hmm. As well. Mm-hmm.

Uh, and so there's a lot of different ways, a lot of different leadership models out there. But we certainly, um, uh, sometime years ago, some of us in diocese many years ago, but increasingly our entire diocese has embraced the model of leadership that's proposed by Patrick Lencioni, uh, who made his literal living, um mm-hmm.

In the Fortune 50 world, not the 500 biggest com, the 50 biggest country companies. Yeah. In, in the world country, in the world. Um, helping them to be healthy organizations led by healthy leadership teams. Uh, and we really came to see, and I've said for many, many times, you've heard me say it and you said the same thing, you guys Right.

Follow a very similar approach. The very similar approaches, um, the Lenon model of leadership. I'm convinced that Pat being a lifelong Catholic mm-hmm. I think just. His kind formation, he intuitively recognized some of these practices and this is just what healthy organizations look like and how they're led.

Mm-hmm. So we've really embraced, well, many, most, if not all things Len, in terms of how we are trying to organize not only the DAAs and level DAAs leadership, but with our bishop having a bishop's leadership team and so on, the departments running accordion, SHO principles, but also, um, at the parish level.

Mm-hmm. Where pastors have passed, uh, pastorate leadership teams and so on. And this is not out of some, you know, arbitrary conviction. It's out of a conviction that no, this works. We've seen it work ourselves. We know other people have seen it work. So we're going to embrace this model because again, it works.

[00:59:57] Jim Jansen: No, I, and I love the way you said, said that it's like, yeah, there's lots of effective leadership models. I mean, you know, the, the military, uh, some, you know, sports cultures. Certainly there's various kind of vi business models. Lencioni is not the only one, but there's something about the fact that Pat is a, again, faithful, lifelong Catholic, that this seems to translate to the kind of nonprofit culture of Catholic Apostolates and particularly to parish life in a way.

Again, it's not the only way, but have something, you gotta have some. Some shared convictions and methodologies for how leadership happens, how meetings are run, how, you know, how goals are set, et cetera, et cetera. Like, you just have to have some of those things. And the, let's say any method seems to work really well.

Uh, part of it, I mean, this is, you know, part of the, the recent collaborations that you and I have had professionally, we're bringing you in to give a workshop here in the archdiocese in April, precisely because you've been living this model and teach, helping to teach it to other people, uh, for years now.

And it's just like, man, it's not the only model, but if you don't have one, start here. And if what you, what you have isn't working well maybe start here as well. 

[01:01:15] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Yep. Yeah, it, and, and again, because it worked, I think Chester News said about our faith, uh, Catholicism has been tried and found wanting It's been tried and found difficult.

Yeah. So there's, um, the, the Lencho put, they just work and they do, but they, they, they take work. Yes. In order to work. It's sort of like OCIA, you get out what you put in. So when it comes to leadership and leadership teams, it's going to be as effective or as fruitful as the investment that's made into them. 

[01:01:43] Jim Jansen: Man. I love it, Chris, thank you. Any last words, just to encourage, I mean, that's like, you just kind of wrapped up both conversations there, but, uh, any last words? 

[01:01:53] Dr. Chris Burgwald: No, I, I would just, you know, whether you are, whether it is you're involved in OCIA or you're involved in, um, in ministry leadership or both, just really to discern and ask the Lord, how can I do this?

Better. What are the things out there? Whether it's people resources to help me more fully implement OCIA, whether it's resources to help us become a more healthy, more vibrant leadership team. Um, ask the Lord, Lord show, show me the way. Uh, what are the resources out there where I can do my part to help take us to the next level?

It's not necessarily that what I'm doing now is bad or wrong. We just want to be better because I want to bear more fruit for his kingdom. 

[01:02:33] Jim Jansen: Amen. And, and again, for those who are listening from the Archdiocese of Omaha, from the Diocese of Sioux Falls, call us. That's what, that's what we do, right? Call the chancery.

Um, like we will help you figure out whether it's, again, tools and best practices to renew your religious education, your OCIA, uh, your, your leadership structure and culture. That's, that's what we do. Um, and it's a joy. It's a lot of fun to be able to come alongside generous, hardworking people and help them be more fruitful and more effective.

[01:03:09] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Amen. 

[01:03:10] Jim Jansen: Okay, everybody, you know, somebody who needs to hear this conversation. Uh, 'cause man, there's, I mean, we just covered a lot of ground here. So, uh, when you get to a place that you can safely use your hands, uh, let the Lord prompt you as to who you need to share this out with. Uh, Chris, thank you for being with us.

[01:03:29] Dr. Chris Burgwald: Happy to Jim. Thank you. 

[01:03:30] Jim Jansen: Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip dot arch omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.