[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast. So today I sit down with Julianne stands and we have a marvelous conversation really talking about the work that she did as a diocesan director, uh, along with her Bishop, Bishop David Ricken, uh, in the Diocese of Green Bay, Wisconsin. Julianne's work is well known as an author, as a speaker, as a consultant for the US Bishops on Evangelization, but is really her work helping parishes rediscover their missionary identity, fostering, renewal, and a renewal of individual missionary disciples.

We talk about that. We talk about Hope pilgrimage. It's really a a beautiful, fun conversation. You're gonna love it. Take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to the EquipCast, a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission.

Let's go.

Alright. Julian stands, welcome to the EquipCast. How you doing today? 

[00:01:09] Julianne Stanz: It's good to be here. I'm good. It's good to be here. Jim. 

[00:01:12] Jim Jansen: Okay. Can I, can I say, I know here is actually in Wisconsin. 

[00:01:17] Julianne Stanz: Yes. 

[00:01:17] Jim Jansen: You love Wisconsin, don't you? 

[00:01:20] Julianne Stanz: I do. I absolutely love living here. I didn't love it when I first came over. Um, not because it wasn't beautiful or anything, it's all of those things, but because the cold took me several years to get used to coming from Ireland.

Wisconsin is beautiful in every season, but it took me the longest time to learn to love winter. 

[00:01:40] Jim Jansen: Sure. 

[00:01:41] Julianne Stanz: But I'm there now. 

[00:01:42] Jim Jansen: It's especially beautiful in the fall, isn't it? I mean, you get a little bit, bit of the Oh, it's gorgeous, right? The colors. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. 

[00:01:48] Julianne Stanz: We get very intense colors, and I often say to people, you know, they only approved Marion apparition shrine in the US where our lady is definitively said to have a P Yes.

Is about 25 minutes from my house. 

[00:01:59] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:01:59] Julianne Stanz: So that is also another reason why I love living here in Wisconsin. 

[00:02:04] Jim Jansen: Now would be a lovely look at you like working for the, the, the Catholic tourism industry. That's great. Okay, so Julianne give, you know, for those who don't know, again, you have offered, authored several books.

Kind of a guest on multiple podcasts. I think I first got to know your work when you were one of the MCs for the, uh, US convocation on the new evangelization. Mm-hmm. Literally my first day on the job, by the way, July 1st, 2017. Gosh, I woke up in Florida. I'm like, I like this job. Anyway. 

[00:02:38] Julianne Stanz: Wow. Yeah. That was an incredible event, wasn't it?

[00:02:40] Jim Jansen: Oh, it was really, it was really wonder. Wonderful. And you did a great job as a, as the mc and kind of drawing things together. Julian, tell, tell us a little bit about your story. 

[00:02:49] Julianne Stanz: Yeah, so I'm from Ireland. You can probably guess by the accent. Um, I actually crossed a really bittersweet threshold. I haven't really talked about it publicly at all, but.

I've been in the US now 24 years, which is a year later than I lived in Ireland. So, I left Ireland when I was 23. I've just told everybody my age there, by the way. 

[00:03:06] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that's right. My listeners are really good at math, so it's fine. 

[00:03:10] Julianne Stanz: Good. Um, but I came over from Ireland to Wisconsin initially to teach and to work in catechesis to be a director of religious education.

And life changed for me after I gave a talk actually on the blessed mother, and I saw a figure stand up from the back of the room and I went, oh my gosh. 'cause I saw the swing of the pectoral cross and I thought there's a bishop in my my room. And it was, it was Bishop, uh, Zubik, Bishop of Pittsburgh. Ah, yeah.

And so, um, he invited me, um, into a position at the diocese around adult faith formation. And then as, uh, the momentum in the church gathered toward evangelization and discipleship and new evangelization specifically, I was named one of the first new evangelization diocesan directors around the country.

So that's where I've been today, I serve as outreach director for evangelization and discipleship at Loyola Press. But if you are talking about my story and where I met Jesus, well, that happened in Ireland on a Misty Mountain. 

[00:04:12] Jim Jansen: Of course. I mean, since you're, you know, since we're kind of in like tourism mode here, talk a little bit about your, your upbringing in Ireland.

I remember, I don't remember the, whether this was talk or, or just, just a more kind of conversational setting, but you talked about the influence of your grandmother. 

[00:04:28] Julianne Stanz: Yeah, my grandmother's name was Hannah, and she was the sacristan of the church. At St. Bridget's Church, it's a little village church, um, that I grew up, received all of my sacraments in.

She had a huge impact on my life. Incredibly faithful woman. Thoughtful. She was the first person I ever heard talk about Mary and Jesus specifically, as if they were in the room with her. Mm-hmm. Which was unusual. 

[00:04:51] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm. 

[00:04:52] Julianne Stanz: I think for that generation. But, um, one of my abiding memories of my grandmother is she would get into bed in the afternoon, uh, for a little nap after her lunch and walking in one day.

And she had a rosary beads in her hand. And she had a statue of Mary under one arm and a statue of Jesus. And she was, she had been talking to them, praying a rosary and falling asleep with them. And it's such a vivid memory for me of how real the saints, how real Jesus, how real Mary was for her. And she was also the bell ringer of our church, which was an unusual role for women.

It was mostly filled by men. For one of my birthdays, my husband had an image of my grandmother commissioned, and the artist took an image of my grandmother as a bell ringer with the music of the bell all around her. And I've since really drawn that motif into my life. The idea that as evangelists and as catechists, you know, the word to categorize, for example, comes from that Greek word to resound or herald.

And so I think about, and so in the last couple of years I've come to this, that I've become very much like my grandmother, as she rang her bell physically for the church, and she lived her daily life. As I travel and speak and write, I am resounding in my own way. And so I grew up in a very typical household in Ireland, going to mass on Sunday, but there was no prayer at at home.

[00:06:14] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:14] Julianne Stanz: At the family table. There was no Bible in the home. I don't ever remember my parents reading the scriptures. And that would've been a pretty typical Irish childhood mass on Sunday, very much the access around your social life, but very little in between. 

[00:06:28] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:29] Julianne Stanz: And that changed for me, uh, when I was about 14 or 15. And I went on a pilgrimage and I climbed, what is Ireland's holiest mountain? It's called Crow Patrick. 

[00:06:40] Jim Jansen: Ah, where, what part of Ireland? Where's it at? 

[00:06:42] Julianne Stanz: It's, it's the west of Ireland. Okay. And it's called the, it's nicknamed the re um, it's the mountain that St. Patrick spent 40 days and 40 nights in prayer. Ah, 40 his public ministry to the Irish.

And, um, I went on that trip with a group of girls, so it was an all girls boarding school. And um, we had a wonderful religion teacher. I remember her at the time. And as we were climbing up the mountain, something was changing inside of me. I know now it was the Holy Spirit, but I didn't at the time have the language for that.

But I started to draw within myself and really dialogue with the Lord about my faith. And I remember having this revelation. I know a lot about my faith, but I don't know you God. Who are you? Who are you to me? Yeah. 

[00:07:28] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:07:28] Julianne Stanz: Like I was looking for that. Who are you to me? What is my purpose? God. And so I was really having this conversation.

I got to the very top of the mountain. You feel such a tremendous sense of accomplishment as you look out. You just see this vast landscape. You see Clue Bay, you know, stretching out all of these little islands set in the sea. It's just very majestic. And I remember a rush of gratitude filled my heart for God's creation and majesty.

And then the poverty of this idea of, and you created. Me, like me, little old me. Mm-hmm. But who are you? God. And then I very clearly heard God speak to my heart, and he said these words, and thi this Jim, this was never a thought I had ever had in my life consciously. But he said to me, my, my love for you comes up every day, like the sunrise.

Whether you see the sunrise or not does not change the fact that the sun comes up. My love is like that for you. Whether you acknowledge it or not. My love is there for you. And I say, well, I, I remember this just emanating for my heart. I love you too, but I don't know you very much, but I want to get to know you.

And then saying to him, wherever you go, I will follow you. Send me wherever you want, Lord. And that was my promise at 14. Wow. So that's where I feel like there was inter intersection of my story and my mission in that moment, even if I didn't know what that looked like. 

[00:08:57] Jim Jansen: Right. You, you did not have Wisconsin in mind.

[00:09:01] Julianne Stanz: Oh gosh, no. 

[00:09:02] Jim Jansen: When you said that, but gosh, thank you for that. I mean, that's beautiful. I am, I was flashing back a little bit. It wasn't just this summer. I actually had a, an opportunity to do a pilgrimage again, which I hadn't personally in quite a while. I got a chance to go to Italy, join my daughter, and together we climbed Mount Macron in northwest Italy.

Uh, one of Pierre Jojo F's favorite mountains. Wow. And it was deeply moving. I mean, I had forgotten, you know, I'll do a retreat every year and I'll spend, you know, daily quiet time. So, but I forgot how powerful the, the physical endeavor. Pilgrimage is for bringing you to a place of prayer that nothing else can do.

[00:09:45] Julianne Stanz: I agree. You know, I was, I'm just back from Rome. I had the opportunity to meet the Holy Father personally, which was an incredible gift. And a lot of people have said to me, you know, what was the best part of your trip? And honestly, it was a couple of moments. It was being with my, my family. Uh, we climbed the Santos, the Yes, the steps of Jesus.

The holy stairs. Yes, the holy stairs. And we climbed it together, those 28 steps. And as we went up each step, we remembered someone in our family. Mm-hmm. And it was afterwards unpacking these moments with our children that I realized this pilgrimage experience for them was an intensification of their life of discipleship.

And I think that's something that we need to keep in mind. That classes are great, small groups are great, and um, you know, personal prayer, devotion, all fabulous, but let's not also neglect the place of pilgrimage. Mm-hmm. Which is where our faith was carried. It was carried on feet for thousands of years.

Right. And I feel like that is such an important point that sometimes gets missed. 

[00:10:48] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Yeah. Really, really grateful for, yeah. Jubilee of Hope. And then the, the call for, for pilgrimage. I was not, I mean, I have to, you know, sometimes when you work for the church, maybe it's just me, you're like, oh, great, here's another year.

Okay, we'll change the logos and the signature on our emails. But this has been fruitful in a way that I had not anticipated and really, really grateful for. 

[00:11:09] Julianne Stanz: Yeah, I agree. And I feel like hope is exactly what has been needed. I am almost to the end of an intense speaking schedule this year, and I've been asked to speak a lot on hope, and I broke down hope into four components, uh, personally, but also a few are ministering in a parish situation that work well, HOPE.

We need to be people of healing. We need to be people of openness to the Holy Spirit. Mm-hmm. We need to be people of prayer, and we need to be people of eucharistic love. And so those four components. They seem very basic, but I think the wisdom of this year, the Jubilee, and actually the theme, people forget this.

The theme isn't just hope, it's pilgrims of hope. 

[00:11:48] Jim Jansen: Right.

[00:11:48] Julianne Stanz: It's about journeying together as people of hope, and I think those four components of healing, openness to the Holy Spirit, prayer and Eucharist can really ground us in. Our life of discipleship, and they're very po, you know, they're very nimble.

Mm-hmm. It's not, they're not just concepts, but they are actions carried out at the service of the mission, which can be very transformative. 

[00:12:11] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I love that. I mean, I, I just, true confessions here, you know, like when, when the, the Jubilee of Hope was kind of announced, pilgrims of Hope, actually. I was like, wait, what is hope again?

You know, like, wait, I know what it does. And so I just kind of, I went back to the catechism and I was so struck by that, like it's expectation of good and, and that sad to say that's often I think what's, what, what, what's missing and expectation that the Lord is going to do to do something good for me, for my parish community, uh, for our diocese.

But he desires that and, and not just, he desires it. And sometimes, very rarely he does it if we don't get in the way, but like he's actually doing it. 

[00:12:56] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. You know, I, something that came to mind as you were speaking, Jim was, um, blessed Solanis Casey's famous quote, praise God ahead of time, you know, thank God ahead of time for what he is already doing.

And I think. 

[00:13:10] Jim Jansen: Yes, it's a prayer of hope. 

[00:13:11] Julianne Stanz: It is an expectation. And I think sometimes in our parishes, we work so hard or in our ministries or we're, you know, we're, we're working with our teenagers or our children and, and sometimes we can become frustrated and say, Lord, is anything I'm doing having an impact?

And I always tell people when they're in that space to as much as you. Yearn for renewal and desire, renewal and want to see your brother who maybe is not practicing his faith anymore. As much as you want him to be reconciled to the Lord. You have to remember that God wants renewal more than us, and so he wants renewal of his people more than even we do.

So let's, let's allow him to speak more in prayer. Allow his presence to be felt more so that we, uh, and, and we cooperate with that. 'cause I sometimes feel like, you know, we're acting humanly all the time. We're busy, busy, busy. But you know, God doesn't ask us to be busy. He asks us to be effective and to be fruitful.

[00:14:09] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:10] Julianne Stanz: And having that expectant faith. I think allows him, affords him, honors his place within the discipleship process in a way that sometimes we marginalize him to decide like, oh, we're doing this in service of you, Lord. But, uh, just hang on. I have my, my small group to launch, you know? 

[00:14:28] Jim Jansen: Yeah, yeah. We'll let you know when we're, we'll let you know when we're all done.

Yeah. No, uh, we have, so I serve, um, one of, one of my greatest joys now is I get to serve on the leadership team, uh, for my pastor, father Ben Boyd, shout out, and the leadership team, holy Ghost and St. Bernadette, uh, two parishes together. And we literally took like the picture of Jesus on the wall, you know, one of those big 1970s ones, and we just like, kind of sat it in the empty seat one day.

It's like, Jesus, you are on this team. I love, love that team. And, and you just like, you know, we're gonna give you the chance to, you're get a chance to speak first. So we start with Alexio over the Sunday readings. We, we let him speak first and he has full permission to interrupt us at any time and.

Without going into the details. I feel like he does sometimes and, and it's been a joy and a, you know, that's just a silly kind of physical reminder to try and keep us like, okay, the Lord is here. He cares, he's fighting for us. Let's make sure that we dispose ourselves to, to notice and, and to follow and cooperate.

[00:15:28] Julianne Stanz: Love that I talk about, like divine attunement, noticing his work, and especially when you're planting seeds a lot in your ministry or in your life, seeds of faith. Sometimes it can be tempting to just, uh, rest on our laurels a little bit, but just, I have a story about that, that might maybe make this point.

Concrete. I was speaking with a particular bishop who has a very, I would say a very beautiful and also very realistic vision, um, of discipleship for his parishes. And, but it has taken a lot of suffering from him in a lot of different ways. Physical, um, emotional, mental, all of the ways that. We suffer. And we were having a conversation about that.

And I asked him where he saw himself in the parable of the Soar. And he said, he said, I have to think about that, Julianne, but where do you see yourself at this point in your life? In the parable of the Soar? And I mentioned to him that for a lot of my early ministry, I saw myself as tilling the soil. So this was the work before the planting of the seeds.

And you're going in and you're breaking up rocky ground and you're making the soil ready and you're pulling out clumps of weeds. And he said, that's interesting. 'cause that's where I, I see myself too. And we talked then about how hard that work can be, that your back is sore, you're hunched over. And I went to my spiritual director afterwards just to unpack that conversation a little bit.

My spiritual director is a brilliant, brilliant man. And he said, you know the funny thing, Julian is. Tilling of the soil would be so much easier if we would just pray for God's reign first. Because when you pray for God's rain, yes, the soil is already broken up and your work is made easier. And that to me is the difference between prayer as daily bread and the prayer of an intentional disciple that knows that the action is always on the Lord first, and we cooperate with that.

[00:17:27] Jim Jansen: Mm. Oh, okay. That, that is, ah, that's so good. I think that's a good place. Like, I wanna dive into our conversation here because, you know, speaking of like bringing hope, helping combine, uh, wisdom for like, you know, how do we invite, like how do we tangibly invite the Lord in. What are some of the, the patterns of renewal?

Uh, I wanna dive into that, but, but I wanna give you an opportunity before we do to talk a little bit about your work at Green Bay, because this is not theory for you. You know, this isn't, you're like, well, I read some books and did some research, like the work that you and your bishop, uh, Bishop David Ricken did.

So beautiful and so fruitful. I'm surprised it's not more well known. I've personally founded an inspiration. I just wanna give you a chance to share a little bit like what did the Lord do for the parishes and the diocese of Green Bay? 

[00:18:24] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. And this is such a beautiful story. Um, there's so many points that I've had the gift of reflecting on.

Even just this morning, Bishop Bricken and I were working on a presentation that he's giving about sort of the fruit of the mission and what has this looked like over 15, 20 years and what a gift it has been to be able to point to actual fruit. We're so desperate for fruit, I think, yes, sometimes in our ministries.

Um, but when you can point to actual fruit, I think it is so beautiful. 

[00:18:54] Jim Jansen: If I can emphasize that there, there's a, there is for sure a human cynicism. Amongst some leaders in the church, but I would contrast that there's also a very, a very, I, I'll, I'll call it wise skepticism to say, okay, we've tried the silver bullet thing and it didn't work, and we're starting to get tired and discouraged, and there's a, there's a hunger for real fruit.

Like, I don't need another theory, I don't need another program. I don't need another system. I need something that actually works. Part of what it, what is, I find so helpful about the story of now 10, 15 years later of the work that, that you did in Green Bay, there is real fruit. 

[00:19:42] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. And I, let me share a little, few, um, data points on the fruit because I think we sometimes look at fruit.

I'm a gardener. I love Jesus's discipleship. Image is mostly agrarian based. It's seeds, wheat fields, you know, not everything ripens on the vine at the same time, and this is a massive principle for us in discipleship, like when I go out to harvest my tomatoes, I might only get one or two from a particular plant 'cause they're not ready.

But I might have an abundance of zucchini coming in or whatever it is. But some data points that might be helpful. In 2010, we had 11 seminarians. And at one point, I think in the history of Green Bay over the last 15, 20 years, we were down to six with 156 parishes. The numbers weren't good. Today we have 25 men in seminary, so we've doubled our numbers right there.

Mm-hmm. And a number who are in a pre-inquiry phase, which is just so beautiful because, um, that propaedeutic year, as we call it, is a full year of discipleship based activity. We've had tremendous growth in our Catholic schools. We've added Catholic schools in the diocese of Green Bay. 

[00:20:47] Jim Jansen: Wow. 

[00:20:48] Julianne Stanz: Our growth has continued year over year.

[00:20:50] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That bucks the trend. 

[00:20:51] Julianne Stanz: Very much, especially in the Midwest. So one of the trend, the data points that I find very interesting is Green Bay, uh, is a mid-sized diocese. Um, the population within the 16 counties is about 1.2 million, but of that 1.2 million, about 180,000, uh, 200,000 are Catholics, uh, registered may come to mass once or twice a year.

[00:21:12] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. Which is pretty close to where we're at here in the Archdiocese of Omaha. 

[00:21:16] Julianne Stanz: Yeah, I was thinking about similar numbers. So again, similar diocese, we don't have. Hotspots with massive influxes in terms of migrant populations, immigrant populations, so our numbers we can track fairly steadily. 

[00:21:31] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:31] Julianne Stanz: Parish to parish. Our numbers for mass attendance were pretty much declining by about 3% every year. Well over 10 years. That's a decline by 30%. 

[00:21:40] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:21:41] Julianne Stanz: This morning, Bishop Ricken and I reviewed the numbers and so this is the first audience that will actually hear these numbers. He's delivering them next week.

We've been working on this together. Of those a hundred and fifty, a hundred and fifty-four to 56 parishes, somewhere in there. Here is where we're at with our mass attendance. We have had 35 of our parishes exceed their pre-COVID numbers from mass attendance, some by almost 200%. 

[00:22:09] Jim Jansen: Wow. 

[00:22:10] Julianne Stanz: So, we're not talking about, of those 35 parishes that have exceeded their pre-COVID numbers, those are have exceeded them.

Between a hundred and 200%. So, it's growth on growth. Wow. There are 20 another 29 parishes that are between 90 and 99% of their pre-COVID numbers, which means we did have a dip after the pandemic. Right. But we are now back and we're stronger than ever. And the rest of our parishes, we have 123 parishes are on their way to recovery based on their mass attendance numbers.

So, the, those are two data points for us. Those that have exceeded, exceeded their numbers, those that are almost to the a hundred percent of recovery and then the rest that are coming along. And so, like I mentioned, Catholic schools, we've seen a dramatic increase in enrollment. We've added two elementary schools and we've added two high schools.

Um, we've built three new school buildings. We're adding chapel. So, in an area that's more rural. 

[00:23:15] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:16] Julianne Stanz: That is very Midwest. We are seeing some extraordinary numbers. Our O-C-I-A-A numbers, for example, are in increasing year over year. We, when we reviewed these numbers this morning, Bishop just stopped and he just went, oh, thank you Our lady, which is so beautiful to hear his acknowledgement because we have the shrine of our Lady of Good helper, our Lady of champion now in our diocese, and there were 10,000 pilgrims coming in 2010 to that place.

Now there's almost quarter of a million every year. So, wow. We've seen pilgrimage increase school, increase mass attendance, um, our seminarians, our numbers of women interested in religious life, and we have that. We had a new missionary order of religious order begin in our diocese. The missionaries of the word.

Wonderful women's community devoted to Lectio Divina. So it's all of those factors together. When I say to somebody, don't just look at one data point for fruit, you have to look at multiple points to say what's going on in the culture, and then don't look two to three or four years out. You've got to start looking five to 10 years before to say, what were they doing at that point that's led to growth today.

[00:24:26] Jim Jansen: Okay. Well that's, that's exactly the question because I could, I can feel, you know, the people listening to this and like walking their dog or driving, they're like, so what did you do? What? 

[00:24:37] Julianne Stanz: I know. Tell us, please. 

[00:24:38] Jim Jansen: Yeah. What, you know, it's like the best time to plant a tree is 10 years ago, years ago. Uh, second best is is today.

So, what did you do 10 years ago? 

[00:24:47] Julianne Stanz: 10 years ago, one of our talking points was how many diocesan plans, visions, and parish plans start with, let's get a group of people together and let's start to imagine and dream what this could look like. And I think. I can share a little conversation that happened, but we had all gone through various iterations of strategic plans.

Mm-hmm. Pastoral plans and, you know, all of these different processes with consultants and everything. And, and the same was happening actually at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops on the Evangelization and Catechesis committee, which I served as a consultant for 10, 15 years. A conversation at that committee really convicted me and my bishop, who was there of the need to do things differently.

And one of the bishops. They were talking about, again, announcing plans and strategies. And one of the bishops leaned over to me, a very, um, elderly gentleman, very wise, very holy. And he said, we've tried everything else. We've tried plans, we've tried strategies. Why don't we just try Jesus? Good. And I, and he, and he giggled and I said, well, what do you mean by that?

He said, you know, I just think he said we'd be better if we spent this time in prayer asking what the, the Lord wants for us. Ah, yes. Than launching into another human process. So Bishop Bricken and I really talked about that with, um, our cur, our diocesan staff, and we spent one full year in prayer dreaming, thinking we weren't committing.

At that stage, we were asking the question, what does the Holy Spirit want for Green Bay? That's where we started. So before we did anything at all, we recommitted ourselves to be people of prayer, to pray in our parish staffs, to pray with each other, to pray for each other, to pray over each other. Mm-hmm.

And we talked about the necessity of prayer before launching any discipleship vision, what did that look like practically? We reached out to the CARite, for example. Mm-hmm. Cloistered women, and we said to them, here's what we're doing. Will you pray for this? Yes. They sent us back a list of things that they wanted.

Can you give us the names of everybody in your cria? Can you give us the name of every priest, every parish. Those women were in prayer the entire time for this process. Um, our norbertine community, our Franciscans, did the same. So when we talk about, oh, wasn't just prayer, there was a concerted effort made to teach people Lectio Divina, how to pray, how to have a conversation with God.

And instead of going into things like our clergy Congress with our priests making plans and strategies, we prayed together and said, what is God sharing? What is he laid on your heart? Mm-hmm. In this moment? What is the fruit of your prayer? And that created a culture where it normalized. The work of the Lord rather than, here's my agenda, here's, here's what I'm focused on.

It normalized a culture where the Lord and his and his presence was brought directly into the situation instead of being marginalized or left in the site. So that was one of the big things that we did. And then from that, we thought, we developed a process of, of cascading leadership. So, you know, who are your highest potential, highly influential leaders.

And so we developed a discipleship formation process. The bishop did it with a few of us. First it was small group based. We explored the charisma and practiced sharing it with each other. We practiced praying with and for and over each other, which was very foreign to a lot of us. Yes, we talked about the role of the Holy Spirit, and we had someone come who.

Led a healing prayer and invited us to think about what ailments spiritual and physical might be manifesting. We, we hadn't prayed like this before. Right. So, we did that as a group of 10 with our bishop. Yeah. And then we did it in our diocesan staff. We went out to our priests. So, I, I, I know I've mentioned priests, but like one tangible thing was our clergy congress was a lot of set and get mm-hmm.

So, an expert was brought in who talked to the priests. And what we did was we flipped that on its head, and we had the priest start witnessing to each other, praying with each other, sharing their stories with one another, breaking 'em up into small groups where they had inter intercessory prayer and they laid hands.

Yeah. And so it was less expert caly driven. And it was more, yes, there was nuggets of good information, but it allowed the brotherly spirit that was there to be stirred up by the Lord.

[00:29:18] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:18] Julianne Stanz: So those were some of the tangibles that we, we started with right away. 

[00:29:23] Jim Jansen: Oh. I mean, all of that is so, it's so refreshing.

'cause I, I, I love the way you began. Many of us, if you've worked at all in an educational or a church setting, you're like, oh, here we go. It's another visioning. Mm-hmm. It's another strategic planning and it's another and there's just a 

[00:29:40] Julianne Stanz: mission statement. 

[00:29:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh yeah. It's nausea and, and you, I mean, when you feel your eyes either physically or kind of like emotionally roll, it's like, oh, wait a minute.

That's a, that's a good sign that I don't have hope here. That's, that's a sign that I'm missing something. 'cause when the Lord is present, there is hope and peace and anticipation and expectation. Oh gosh. Julianne, I wanna like, so I wanna give you a chance. I feel like, uh, you know, we could, I mean, just talk for, for days here, but one, uh, there was a time where we were together, we were doing an evangelization workshop together, and you showed a slide that like, I don't know if I like, dropped my coffee, but I, like, I grabbed, I, I like reached for my phone.

'cause I wanted to take a picture of it. You had assembled a simple visual that talks about these elements of renewal. Yeah. And what happens if one of them is missing. And it was. So I thought it was just a, it struck me as a beautiful synthesis of your experience watching this at a diocesan level and then in parish, after parish, after parish.

I just want to give you a chance, I think we wanna kind of like go through that. The first one was prayer, which, which I love. Talk a little bit like we talked about what happens when we. Have prayer. What happens when we forget prayer? 

[00:31:06] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. Let, let me give you a little intro to this. Um, for those that don't have the chart or haven't seen it, I think sometimes there can be a lot of failures and false starts in the work of culture change.

'cause that's what we're trying to do. We're not just trying to change the culture, but we're trying to convert the culture. And there's three types of conversion that are happening all the time. The first one is person to person, that interpersonal conversion of hearts and minds and lives. And then there's ministerial conversion where we're trying to convert ministries that maybe are doing a lot of the same things and convert them to a new way of reaching out today.

And then there's the institutional conversion that is the highest level of culture change. And so, one of the things I've realized is a lot of people take things that have worked at other parishes and they try and graph them on and then they wonder why things fail. And I think sometimes we approach.

Making disciples. Forming disciples like we're baking a cake. And if you're baking a cake, it's fairly precise. Like you can't just throw in another half cup of flour and four teaspoons of baking soda. You just can't do that. 

[00:32:12] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:32:12] Julianne Stanz: And I, I see a lot of people doing that with discipleship. Like it is a precise recipe to follow.

And instead, I give people the analogy of the great Midwest casserole, or in my culture, the stew, right? Yes. It's the big, the great big stew where you open up your fridge and you look at what you have, and you put the meal together accordingly. That is every home. That is every culture. We take the ingredients that are around us, and we feed our families from them.

Discipleship needs to look more like that. What are the ingredients that we have? What are the charisms? What are the gifts? What is the Lord doing here? What's the name of our parish? What significance does that mean? And it's all of those components together that can lead to. A discipleship based culture that lasts.

And so as I was thinking about this, I thought, what if I took, like for a stew to be a stew in Ireland, you have to have some sort of meat, you have to have some vegetables, you have to have some potatoes. If you're from a different culture and you're making disciples, you have to have how, for example, or it's not poli or whatever, you have to have the green sauce or Right.

So I thought, what if I had taken some of those, I wanna say principles. 

[00:33:26] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:27] Julianne Stanz: And allow parishes to really reflect on those things. So that's what I set up was, here were the ingredients for change and it works. If you do not have prayer in place, your plan isn't going to be fruitful. It's not going to be.

A space, um, where people can see that the, this is the Lord's vision that can be humanly taken apart. And so if you, that's the first thing that you have. So the, the chart works, like it takes the human emotion on one side and said, you know, if you don't have a plan, you're gonna get false starts. People don't know where you're going.

They need a roadmap. So maybe we can talk through some of those elements, Jim. Yeah. And, and, and unpack that a little bit. 

[00:34:07] Jim Jansen: Yeah, that would be great. And for those of you who are like, oh, I wanna see this, we're gonna put the chart, the chart in the show notes, so you'll get to see it. You can download it, you can take it, you can, you can talk about it as a team and pray about it.

Uh, and bring it to the Lord. 

[00:34:20] Julianne Stanz: Yes. I love that. 

[00:34:22] Jim Jansen: So, we'll, we'll go through these. We, we talked about prayer. Again, having seen this. One of the things you talk about, it's like, you know, if prayer is missing, obviously it's not fruitful. 

[00:34:34] Julianne Stanz: and there's no lasting change. 

[00:34:36] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And there's no lasting change. It doesn't work.

But even more than that, I, what I thought was so genius was, you'll know you forgotten prayer. 'cause sometimes, right. Nobody intentionally forgets prayer, but you'll know you've forgotten prayer when you're exhausted. 

[00:34:51] Julianne Stanz: Oh, for sure. You know, and this is an echo of what Pope Francis said in Evangelic Gaudium, which is the church urgently, I was very struck by that word urgently.

The, the church urgently needs the deep breath of prayer because without that prayer, our work can easily tire us. Mm-hmm. We can be exhausted. And actually, any evangelic Gaudium. The Holy Father said, it can even seem meaningless because prayer doesn't just, it's, it's a communication, right. It's to, yes, it's the Lord and the human coming together where the Lord is infusing himself into the very work that he's asking you to do.

And I think sometimes we think that we pray and then we work. And so, we're always looking for the next thing to do. But prayer is a posture, it's a way of being in conversation with the Lord. And so you're, you never graduate from praying beyond the vision. Mm-hmm. Prayer is something that brings you into the vision and the Holy Spirit as the principle of unity.

And stirring up that missionary dynamism always gives you the next step. So, if you're truly praying, yes, you might not see the whole picture, but the Holy Spirit will say, your people are really struggling with this. 

[00:36:06] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:07] Julianne Stanz: And it will lead you to, okay, your small groups need to take an arc maybe into this kind of formation because that's where the people are and the Holy Spirit is speaking through that.

[00:36:17] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:36:18] Julianne Stanz: So, I feel like that is where sometimes we're like, we need to do this. We treat it. Prayer is not a program, it's a sustaining presence throughout the entire discipleship work. Oh 

[00:36:29] Jim Jansen: man. Process that, that is so good. Prayer is a sustaining presence. Yes. I love that. Julian, you, you mentioned kind of like vision and mission.

Again, that's one of the, one of the ingredients you're like, okay, that has to be present. Uh, that vision is gonna be different for each particular faith community, a ministry parish. Talk about vision and mission. They're often used interchangeably. There's a difference. Just kind of break that open for us.

[00:36:57] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. I, I really feel this is an important, it's critically important. Sometimes some of my most frustrating calls at the diocese were, we're ready to engage with this wonderful vision of discipleship. We're going to start with the mission statement and spend a year doing that. I was like, you know what?

The Lord has already given us the mission statement. It's go and make disciples now. I've saved you maybe eight, eight months of work. Let's talk about how that's going to show up. Yes. So I think this mission and vision are not the same. Mission is very present centered. It's about what we are doing and why.

And I think vision is future-based, what we want to become. So, it inspires and provides that long-term directional. Movement within the discipleship process. Some people say it's more aspirational, but it has to be practical too. So, mission and vision work together to create a blueprint for discipleship that is practical, visionary, sustainable, but also is going to lead to fruit because a lot of times.

We sometimes use language like success, and I think we need to lean more into discipleship based language. So, vision and mission, critically important. What happens if you do not have a vision in place? For example, you get people who are confused, like, okay, we have this theme in the church, and now we have this theme, and then the the Holy Father has announced another theme for the year.

How do all those things fit together? A good vision will be able to accommodate nimbleness and flexibility and creativity. Why? Because the gospel is portable, shareable, adaptable. It works in every context. It is nomadic. Your vision should be able to flex similarly, and if you don't have that, people get confused.

And if you do not have a strong mission statement, you'll often, it'll often lead to things like false starts or substitution of a vision or co-opting other parishes or other communities' visions and kind of forcing them to fit. And I think that can be very jarring. 

[00:38:59] Jim Jansen: Yeah, well you get that, that kind of like, like kind of shoehorn, horning or equivocation where either you, you take something that's good, that doesn't quite fit your community and you try and make it fit or you just take what you're already doing and call it, or like, oh, well that, yes, the fish fry that is, that's our, that's, that's evangelization.

Or like, um, I mean I love the fish, but yeah, it's just, uh, yeah. Let's keep going on, on the chart here. 'cause there's so much the, you talk about the importance of gifts and charisms, you know, that, uh, again, more natural language, maybe people might think about a strength and there's different assessments for, for these things.

I love it. You said that. Okay. Anxiety often results if there isn't an attention to people's gifts and charisms say, say more about that. 

[00:39:49] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. You know, I think sometimes we can become so desperate for volunteers. So that we spend most of our time using the language of engagement, let's engage our people versus if we form disciples, disciple makers will naturally listen for gifts and charisms and others and say, you know what?

You have a gift for music. 

[00:40:10] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:10] Julianne Stanz: Have you ever thought about? And so I think sometimes when we approach our parish ministries, we look for almost like little mini clerics in the role. So now you're the chair of the blah, blah, blah committee. And, um, I don't think that respects the movement of the Holy Spirit and people's gifts and charisms, a charism is an unmerited gift as your life of discipleship grows.

And so you can see gifts, strengths, and then you can see. So let me, for your listeners, I'll give you an example that might concretize this. Have you ever been in a. At mass and you've heard somebody playing or singing a piece of music and you have been moved almost to tears. 

[00:40:52] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:53] Julianne Stanz: Now that is someone who is a charism and that person is praying as they're singing or playing.

[00:40:59] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:40:59] Julianne Stanz: And then there are other times when you've gone to a mass and it's a different canter or a different musician and it's music and it's helping you pray, but it hasn't moved you to have an encounter. Mm-hmm. That's the difference between someone who has a gift and someone who's, who's actually actively living out of their charisms.

Charisms, naturally draw people, and so if you have a person who is an incredible, has an incredible expansive heart for hospitality, an event that's designed and planned. With them at the helm is going to have a very, very different character than if it was being planned by me, for example. 

[00:41:33] Jim Jansen: Yeah, no, I mean, I've seen this, I've been blessed to work with people who have charisms for hospitality and for administration, and it's just the difference between things getting done and things getting done easily and perfectly on time and being like, oh, that was a nice party.

And like, oh no, no, that was a slice of heaven. Like, you know, it's just, oh, I like that. The difference that, that the charisms make. It's not that you can't serve if you don't have that particular charism, but when, when you do, it's joyful for you and it's just next level fruitful for everybody else.

[00:42:09] Julianne Stanz: Correct. And the anxiety isn't there when you have a good alignment between the charisms and the types of ministerial or volunteer roles or whatever you're looking for. When charisms find a fit, there isn't anxiety. And very often I will, I just had a conversation with a young person who was just talking about how anxious they were about their volunteer role at a parish.

Hmm. And it all boiled down to they did not feel competent and confident in this role because it wasn't a fit for their gifts and their charisms. But you know, they'd been catapulted into it because we needed someone for this event and they, and because they were young, they were a good choice for this and which.

Generalizing people's gifts and charisms. We need to take time in the discipleship process to discern. 

[00:42:57] Jim Jansen: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:42:57] Julianne Stanz: Because this is all, this is all part of prayer too, is prayer and discernment go together and to, to help. Because when people are in that space, as you said, there's joy, there's life and things happening more easily.

[00:43:08] Jim Jansen: Yeah. And I just wanna name something I'm hearing from, from you that we haven't made explicit yet, but that there is a, a type of accompaniment going on from the pastoral leadership, whether it's the pastor himself or those that he's drawn alongside who have gifts, you know, for pastoring and for accompaniment that are like, they're with people, they're listening to them, they're helping them find their place.

That's kind of like this hidden ministry, if you will, that's, that's helping other people come to a place where, where they find their unique calling, the, the service that fits how the Lord made them. 

[00:43:46] Julianne Stanz: Yeah, this is an important point because I think sometimes that we see, we see a need and we want to fill it instead of doing the, the work of prayer and discernment and to say what are the gifts and charisms that this person has had and how can they express those as a gift back to God in the world?

And so this is one, I think this is at the heart of disciple when, because it's really where people, it's the intersection of meaning in somebody's life and their life of service. It's how is God calling them to serve in the world? And I think we approach that sometimes as like, where should we put this person versus what is God calling that person to?

That's a different conversation. 

[00:44:25] Jim Jansen: Yes. Well, and speaking of different conversations, sometimes the Lord is calling them to service outside the parish, and it's not Oh, for sure. Right. It's not a parish ministry. It's like, you know what? Like you should be the president of the neighborhood association. You should serve on the school board.

You're like. Your calling right now is the personal apostolate to be God's missionary at this company that you work in, which can be hard if we have a scarcity mentality, but 

[00:44:53] Julianne Stanz: Oh, that's a great conversation point. I would love 

[00:44:55] Jim Jansen: Oh, my goodness. 

[00:44:55] Julianne Stanz: To dive in, but we will sometime, 

[00:44:56] Jim Jansen: yeah. We'll, we'll, yeah, we'll do another one.

Okay. Julianne, there was, I confess, there was one element on here where you talked about, used the word inspiration incentive, just how important that is for avoiding resistance. And, and I want to give you a chance to talk about this because in a word, I think it's the resistance, the pushback, the, the criticisms that often derail good, good-hearted pastoral leaders.

You know, we, we don't like to disappoint people. We love them. Talk more about inspiration. What do you mean by that? 

[00:45:30] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. In incentivizing or inspiring change, because that's what you're doing when you're in, we are converting, reorienting ourselves to Jesus every single day, and our ministry should be evolving and changing our parish communities changing and growing.

That can be difficult because parish is not just the place where people worship. It is the place where people get married, where their children go to school. So people have very fixed ideas around the building. Mm-hmm. As the body of Christ, rather than this very dynamic understanding of the body is when we are together.

Yes. The building is part of that, and so I understand why people become resistant, because they're like, okay, now we have the new blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's, it's interesting when you don't incentivize people to change, you get entrenched resistance and language. Like we've always done it this way here.

We try this once, but it doesn't. Our symptomatic of a resistant culture, and I will say that in prayer, the Lord's persistence will overcome all resistance. So, if you are persistent with helping people say, this is what God is calling our community to, and let's inspire change, I think sometimes we work from a scarcity mindset in discipleship.

Like we have no, this. Catechists and okay, that burning platform might be true, but people need to be inspired to the who and the why of Catholicism more than the what and the how. Let me define that really quickly. 

[00:47:01] Jim Jansen: Oh, that's so good. Yeah. Go. 

[00:47:02] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. For a lot of particularly older generations in the church, a lot of the access around their life of discipleship was, tell me what I need to know and what I need to do in order to be Catholic.

Mm-hmm. And so we emphasized teachings, behaviors, principles, all of those things. What's interesting with the younger generations is that they can google the what and the how they, okay. What does the church teach about? They can Google that. They cannot Google the who and the why. 

[00:47:30] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:47:30] Julianne Stanz: They cannot Google your why to Catholicism, and they cannot really Google a sense of how Jesus is moving in your life unless they have a conversation.

[00:47:40] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:40] Julianne Stanz: I think unless we inspire. Discipleship more around the who and the why of change. We get stuck in the what and the how, but how is this gonna happen? And we get stuck there and that's where people get resistance. But if you can inspire people to a vision where Jesus is at the center, a Christocentric vision where the church is filled with young families, with young people, where people are coming, where we care about each other, that's where you'll find energy.

Because everybody wants to see that. But when we get stuck in the what and the how, you mean you're changing my four o'clock mass? That's where we can Yes. See a lot of resistance. 

[00:48:20] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Julian, I am, so, I, I talk about the, you know, like you have to emphasize the why more than the what and the how in nice in, in my, in my book.

But I, I forgot. I mean, I did, I didn't forget the who, but like, just. Taking all of the why we're doing it, and then taking it one step further, one step furthering it into the person of Jesus right back on, I mean, the Misty Mountain. Like, I love you and, and I, I have something for you. 

[00:48:49] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. This is an important point because I think we can say, okay, we want to see young families, and mass time isn't conducive to that, but what does God want?

Mm-hmm. God wants his families to be able to worship together. I'm taking this mass time because it's usually a, a strong point of contention, right? Oh, it's real. Yeah. It's a very contentious issue. Yeah. It's very, and I, and it's a real issue, but you know, in, in Green Bay, we had to look at that. We had to look at cities together and say, why are you all 12 of you having the same mass time?

Like Can you stagger them a little bit? Just within half an hour of each other so that families can, as they're traveling or different things, can we look at this together, brother priest. And so we started looking at regions together and at first there was resistance, but when you start saying is, don't we want people to have access to Jesus more than just this one time?

[00:49:41] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's kind of hard to, it's hard, it's hard to argue against that. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Okay, so tricky question. You offer the, the element of resources now, and I think most people, you know, it's like, okay, by resources you mean? Yes. Facilities, personnel, financial resources, all all the things. Talk about that and then if you would like, what about, what about, I'm hesitant to say this 'cause I think it's a little bit of an a kind of a, a, an uh, American myth, but what about the poor parish?

We don't have a lot of resources. 

[00:50:17] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. So when we talk about resources, I think of, you know, the fixed resources of buildings, personnel. But I also think about the intangible elements that we sometimes forget about, you know, the presence of a great home bound community who can be praying the presence in a community of a beautiful worship space that maybe is not recognized in the community, but is old and beautiful and feels sacred.

Every community has something. And so, I sometimes think we do not want to embrace this poverty, our own poverty. Of spirits, in fact, and our own poverty. So, this is a moment where we look at our own poverty and take a realistic as, uh, assessment of the resources that we actually have. What I'm trying to move people to, um, in this part of the movement of the chart, if you will, the process is okay.

You can always focus on the lack hmm, and the scarcity, but this is where we move to abundance. So, this is where we catalog the wonderful people that we have, the fantastic cafeteria in the basement that we haven't used because we don't know what to do with it. This is where we look at our beautiful tabernacle, our beautiful artwork.

We're swinging here from this scarcity mindset to more of a multiplication mindset. And I think unless we, we really take time to unpack this, what I sometimes see is a lot of frustration and a lot of conversation around, well, if only we had this, if only we had that. If only the reality is Jesus's mission started with 12 ragtag.

Disciples. 

[00:51:53] Jim Jansen: Yeah. The, the guys that weren't picked for the other teams? 

[00:51:55] Julianne Stanz: No. And the women who were trying to feed their families and feed their men, and like Lydia or Priscilla or Mary Magdalene had little businesses going, little home base businesses in their own Right. Right. They were, they were doing, they were trying to feed their families and at the same time, trying to move to a new way of life.

If they can do it with how little they have, we can do it too, because discipleship is about learning from Jesus the master and I have seen, I will say on the poor parish as however I have seen, they hire the most connected, often they know, they look out for each other. They're conscious of their lack and their own poverty, but you know what?

God fill in that rest, the rest of that. And so, every parish has a poverty of something. 

[00:52:43] Jim Jansen: Right? 

[00:52:43] Julianne Stanz: So, let's embrace that as a moment for spiritual renewal and to say, okay, yes, we'd like to have this, this, and this book. Can we start with what we have, which is good and beautiful? Like as we open our fridge to create our stew, we've got meat, we've got potatoes, we've got some vegetables.

Let's start there. And that tends to overcome frustration because you can always add as you go. 

[00:53:04] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Well, and I mean, I think you, this won't be a surprise to you, but you know, watching parishes that have committed to build a clear path, it's often those who have the least, yes. The least programming, the least of budgets, the least of what you know.

And they, they're actually able to do it quicker and see fruit of changed lives and, and individuals growing maturing faster because. The Lord gets to be in the driver's seat. They're, they're not clouded and distracted by all the D There's a lot of different reasons there. 

[00:53:37] Julianne Stanz: This is a great point actually, and I wanna affirm, affirm, affirm what you just said.

I hope that if this is tweeted or shared out that this particular soundbite from you, Jim, is what people focus on. Because I have seen the same thing. Yes. I have seen parishes with large endowments, very wealthy, very inoculated from the mission. Mm-hmm. Because the funding and the money is keeping certain things buoyant, and so it's.

Mission, add extra, oh, let me add this, this, and this. But really that deep work of embracing our poverty of spirit leads to a great fruitfulness, a movement of fruitfulness, because we are totally relying on the Lord. I've seen that actually. 

[00:54:17] Jim Jansen: Yes. 

[00:54:18] Julianne Stanz: With parishes too. 

[00:54:18] Jim Jansen: Okay, so last one here. I feel like we started the conversation, we're like, Ugh, strategic plans, pastoral plans, blah.

And yes, here we are. Let's just have Jesus do it. But that's the last element. You're, you're like, no, no, no. There is a place for a pastoral plan. Talk about the place and then what happens when it's missing. 

[00:54:37] Julianne Stanz: When it's missing, there's false starts. People, the, you know, nature does not, uh, uh, afford a vacuum.

So, people will create their own vision around that. And you'll see, what I, we saw in Green Bay, for example, was competing visions within the same vision. Mm-hmm. So, we had a vision for discipleship, and our bishop actually was very wise. He represented what he felt. He, he had an arrow. So, I want your, your listeners to visualize an arrow, like we're all moving in this direction.

We're all moving in the direction of a culture of discipleship. But then within the big arrow where all these arrows going everywhere. And he was like, that is not aligned change. That's why we need to have a plan with some mission, vision, values, which are the way in which we're going to live. So that people don't just talk about discipleship, but your values are how people are going to experience and live out discipleship.

And so, if you don't have that, you tend to get a lot of false starts. People tend to swing onto themes or I often see too, people will latch onto books and programs. 

[00:55:35] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:36] Julianne Stanz: And I always say to people. Work your plan with creativity, obviously, and flexibility. But if you've got principles, and these are the principles by which you are going to look at the culture of discipleship, then you can easily say, well, this doesn't fit with this.

Like, this is a great offering. This is a great book or program. Mm-hmm. But this is where we are now and we're gonna work. Yeah. 

[00:55:55] Jim Jansen: But we have a plan. 

[00:55:57] Julianne Stanz: We've got a discipleship pathway that we're walking people through, so we can't just throw something else in there. That's where I think the value of pastoral planning can come.

It should come though at this point. It shouldn't be coming. It shouldn't be driving first, but it comes after that prayer. The vision, when you look at your gifts, inspiration. So that's why it's represented on the chart last. Mm-hmm. Because sometimes as parishes, we jump to it and people we jump to it first.

[00:56:20] Jim Jansen: Yes. Yeah. It will end. Gosh. I mean, there's just, there, there's so much in, in this. As you were talking, I was, I think there's this false sense that sometimes they're like, well, all I need is like a leader. And it's like, well, yes, but, but leaders, you know, for a particular ministry, let's say, but strong leaders, if they don't have a unifying vision and a plan that helps them stay pointed in the right direction, then they'll just go, start leading in another direction, you know?

And, and it's like, it's like the, the work is different. It's really hard if you don't have leaders, you know, sometimes to, to help spark things. But when you do have leaders, it's still hard. It's just a different kind of like, okay, now, now we're reminding and keeping people, Hey, remember we've got the plan.

How are we doing? You know, and, and keeping people aligned to the plan and, and the vision. 

[00:57:10] Julianne Stanz: And you see, you see this in the acts of the apostles. You know, you see, oh, you know, where should we go? Who should we focus on? So you kind of see all these false starts. And I would say two for parishes. Not taking risks is a problem actually, because in a, in our, um, in our world, in our church world, we want steadiness, safety and security.

And yet discipleship is about stepping out, going beyond, reaching out. And we can be very risk averse as a church. In fact, risk can be punished if you look at the lives of the saints. Yes. Um, sometimes, you know, in the case of like, for example, Padre Peel, it was like, wait, there now Padre Peel, you know, the authority stepped in.

He remained quiet. And then, uh, you start to see some synergy come together in his life where the authority start to bless his mission. It was because he was taking risks. It was because he was going out st. With St. John vii. I think sometimes we have to, uh, be people that are not afraid to go out. You know, I wonder sometimes when Peter was challenged to go fishing again, he is like, you're not a fisherman, but I'm going to go anyway.

'cause you told me God. He doesn't say I need a bigger boat. I need snazzier nets. I need more men. He goes, if you say so, Lord, I will go. And he goes, 

[00:58:27] Jim Jansen: yeah. 

[00:58:28] Julianne Stanz: And we are told that Jesus says to him, you know, put down your nets. Peter could have always thrown his nets on the right side of the boat or this particular side.

Maybe the day the fish came was the day. Well, it's because he is obedient. Right. We know that. But also, maybe he threw the net a little different. We can't be afraid to take risks when it comes to discipleship. Two with appropriate risk, I should say. 

[00:58:49] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 

[00:58:49] Julianne Stanz: Risk not... 

[00:58:50] Jim Jansen: in the context of prayer. And you know. 

[00:58:53] Julianne Stanz: Yes. Let's try this. Let's. 

[00:58:55] Jim Jansen: A vision and a mission and ah, yeah. Julian, our time is just like totally flown here and we, we've covered a lot of ground. I just wanna give you an opportunity, you know, you, you literally have seen the church around the country, around the world. I love like the know the, the subtle little flex.

It's like, oh, I got a chance to beat Pope Leo, whatever. Like, what do you, what do you see the Lord doing in the church today? 

[00:59:22] Julianne Stanz: Oh gosh, that's a beautiful question. I feel profoundly blessed to be alive at a time when I see people awakened from their slumber to a kind of Catholicism that gives them the ability to pray with someone who is dying to not be afraid to share the gospel online, regardless of what.

You know, the world thinks I see young men and young women stepping forward my children's age making these courageous decisions, and I have, I've had this experience several times. I've been out in an event and I've been speaking, and somebody comes up to me and it's such a gift to hear, you know, Julianne, this encouraged me.

It helped me understand that I'm on the right track, but when I look into this person's face, I have this sometimes image or this feeling come over me like. St. John the Baptist, I'm not fit to tie this person's shoes because I perceive in them a great holiness, an ordinary holiness that is extraordinary.

And I've seen it over and over and over in moms and dads and grandparents. And you know, I see the timidity of like, the Lord is using me in this way and the gift. And then people say, and you thank you, you, you know, you've just, I had this wonderful day and I, and I sit and I just, I bow before the Lord in this moment to see the person who's in front of me, who is just filled and animated with the Holy Spirit.

And to be able to see that alive in our generation and know that that mother, that father, that grandmother, whoever is walking the gospel out into the world, I always tell my children, every time you receive Jesus and the Eucharist, you are like a little tabernacle with feet. And you go and Jesus goes with you.

And I see that alive today and it is an awesome thing. And it is. Sometimes it is super emotional, just on a very real level. Yeah. To see a, a spiritual giant standing in front of you who's like, I'm just a volunteer, and you're like, oh, you are the light of the world for your family. You, you are, you are doing exactly what God is wanting you to be doing.

You're praying, you're faithful. Your desire to please him, pleases him. And you just have these moments. And I just see them repeated over and over and over and over. And I also can tell you in your listeners, every time I go to Europe, every time I'm in Rome or I am, you know, with a group of bishops in Ireland or England, for example, a lot of people reflect back to me.

You know, Irish priests left home, they came over to America. Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of our country's been built. By missionary priests from whatever country, Mexico, go Africa. But now America has become a light for us because we are listening to your podcast, we are reading your books, we are seeing what you're doing in America, and it's giving us a great sense of hope.

Yes. And I have to tell you, with this conversation coming full circle, it has been my dream for Ireland to have come alive in faith. And I am seeing it. And it is just, it's just so beautiful to be able to see this after 20 years, there's this great awakening of faith across the world and America is helping, supporting, resourcing that journey for other countries too.

Yeah. It's, it's beautiful. 

[01:02:49] Jim Jansen: Well, and we, we have a debt of gratitude. Again, even just a, a superficial knowledge of history. We understand they gifted the faith to us. And if we can give so something back, it's a, it's a deep, you know what I mean? You know, we've had some moment, we have some, some common common Irish friends, you know, that listen to the podcast and, and I'm like, my goodness.

It is such an honor to be of encouragement and, and of service. 

[01:03:17] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. And also, to receive the gift of what is happening in a different context. Yes. Yeah. You know, and then to say, okay. There, there's a great talking point back to our, well, we don't have all these resources and podcasts and things, but if you're in a, if you're somewhere else, start something.

[01:03:33] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. 

[01:03:34] Julianne Stanz: Gather your friends together. I mean, there's great creativity and I feel like. 

[01:03:38] Jim Jansen: Oh, my goodness. 

[01:03:39] Julianne Stanz: Yeah. 

[01:03:39] Jim Jansen: Could I can ima as you're talking like, oh my gosh, I could imagine a bunch of cool Irish accents sitting around. 

[01:03:44] Julianne Stanz: And they're doing it. 

[01:03:46] Jim Jansen: I would listen, I would listen to that all day long. 

[01:03:48] Julianne Stanz: And it's happening, you know, I was, uh, talking with a bishop friend and he was telling me about a group of young people at a particular university that get together a couple of times a week and they pray and then they go out for a pint afterwards.

Very Irish. And he was saying this group didn't exist three years ago. 

[01:04:06] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh, I love it. 

[01:04:07] Julianne Stanz: You know, that's incredible. 

[01:04:08] Jim Jansen: Well, Julian, thank you. Just thank you for your ministry. You know, before we turned on the mics, I was expressing to some of my gratitude. You, you're a very public figure, you know, author, speaker.

But unseen by a lot of people. I think you've been a, a mentor, a, a big sister of sorts. Oh, wow. Uh, to a lot of young diocesan, uh, leaders. And that, uh, I guess that that hidden ministry I I'll label it has been so fruitful. I've been blessed by that. So thank you. I really appreciate. I think you, uh, not to embarrass you, but I think you, you kind of embody the, the feminine genius to be able to come alongside and to say some things that like, man, I don't know if I could say that, but you're able to, uh, say that and, and offer a blessing of encouragement, so thank you.

[01:04:55] Julianne Stanz: Oh, oh, I, that's very humbling to hear that it's such a gift to be able to be alive at this time and to have something to share. You know, so much was given to me by so many people who are so good to me, and. I wanna be able to give back some of that goodness that was given to me. And also to do so. I, I reflect a lot on that.

Not just Sri phrase, but that beautiful scripture. Do this in memory of me. This is what I want to be doing in memory of him. And I sometimes think we demonize the word doing, we say, you know, it's more important to be with the Lord than do, than Well, no, it's in the doing. And the being that those come together to give a great symphony of what we're doing in our lives and allow that song to sing.

And I think about the doing as a vow that we take. 'cause you know, when you take your, um, marriage vows, you say, I do. I do, I do. That's a vow. At the Easter vigil when we are asked, do you believe in Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Holy Catholic church, the community of saints? We say, I do. I do. I do. 

[01:05:58] Jim Jansen: Yes.

[01:05:58] Julianne Stanz: And I think if we can recast that, doing as busy work as doing in his name, in his memory, that is what I pray that people will see from us today as Christians, as Catholics, that we are doing for Jesus who has given us such a great treasure. 

[01:06:15] Jim Jansen: Hmm. Amen. Thank you. Alright everybody, you, you know somebody that needs to hear this conversation.

The hope, the wisdom, the encouragement. So when you get to a safe spot where you can share this out with your friend. Do that. And, uh, again, thank you Julianne. Thanks for being with us. 

[01:06:35] Julianne Stanz: God bless in Ireland, a hundred thousand thank yous. 

[01:06:40] Jim Jansen: Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.