[00:00:00] Jim Jansen: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Equip Cast. So today I sit down with, honestly, one of the coolest people I know, deacon Al Ulner has been a pilot at an air traffic controller. He's a deacon in the Catholic church and he's the coordinator of Prison and Jail Ministry for the Archdiocese of Omaha. We have a really fun conversation. You're gonna learn about the difference between jail ministry and prison ministry and the commonalities between evangelization on the inside and the outside. And the lessons, uh, that those who are incarcerated teach us. It's really a great conversation and towards the end we talk a little bit about our experience together, serving on the leadership team, uh, at our parish with our, our pastor. Um, it's a really fun conversation. I think you're gonna appreciate it. Take a listen. Hey everybody. Welcome to The Equipped a weekly podcast for the Archdiocese of Omaha. I'm your host, Jim Jansen. Now let's dive into some encouragement and inspiration to equip you to live your faith and to be fruitful in your mission. Let's go. Deacon Al Ulner, welcome to the Equip Cast. Thank you. How you doing? [00:01:14] Dcn. Al: I am doing well. Busy but blessed. I always say. [00:01:18] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh, that's good. I like that because it's like, I feel, it's like, it's like the American obligation, like we have to say like, I'm busy, which is like true, but. I'd like to think I'm more than that. [00:01:30] Dcn. Al: Yeah. And there's blessing in all of it, so. [00:01:32] Jim Jansen: Yeah, absolutely. [00:01:33] Dcn. Al: Yeah. Keep, keep going, but, uh, very good. Thank you. [00:01:37] Jim Jansen: Okay, so we are going to talk about one of the things that keeps you blessed and busy. You're the, uh, coordinator for the archdiocese for our prison ministry. But I wanna just give you a chance, just, uh, as we get started here, like who are you, what's your story? [00:01:55] Dcn. Al: Well, I grew up in Hastings, Nebraska. I am the third oldest of 11, and I'm the oldest of seven sons. So large family. [00:02:05] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Uh, seven sons. I forgot that. [00:02:08] Dcn. Al: Yeah. Seven sons. Uh, four sisters or four daughters in the family. And, uh, you know, from the early age. Mom and dad, well, cradle Catholic. Mm-hmm. And, uh, they practiced the faith and they gave us the faith from a, a really early age. And I've just been kind of blessed that at about five years old, I just realized, wow, it's true. And then there is a God. And when they sent us to Catholic school, I only went till about fifth grade, but the nuns such holy nuns, I'll never forget my first grade teacher. And she's the one that told us about that we were created and God loved us. And, and to me it, it made 100% sense. And I just felt God was my, was my friend, you know, from, from that little time. That's a real blessing, you know? [00:03:02] Jim Jansen: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not, not everybody's story. [00:03:06] Dcn. Al: No, no. [00:03:07] Jim Jansen: And increasingly it seems like it's more rare and it's a blessing and. I was blessed with a very, I mean, very, very faithful parents family growing up. And the more I encounter people who didn't have that, I'm like, oh my goodness. I had, you know, I just lived with it. I never lived another life. I, I never had a different family background, but it's like, wow, what a gift. [00:03:27] Dcn. Al: Yeah. Yeah. And as I grew up, there was a time when I was in the military that I decided that, oh, I could kind of, you know, do things on my own. And so I quit going to church for a short time. Wasn't mad at anybody. Mm-hmm. I was just lazy. None of the other guys were going to church much. And, and I just felt that, uh, I could just kind of drop that for a while. But I met my wife Terry, and she was an active church goer. She invited me to go to her church and, uh, she was Protestant and another friend of mine was Catholic. And we started going to mass together, um, my friend and I, and all of a sudden that that closeness to God came back and I didn't really realize I was missing it until I had it back. [00:04:19] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:04:19] Dcn. Al: And, uh, then Terry and I, we dated off and on for a while, but we ended up getting married and nine months and two weeks after our wedding, we had our first child. Our baby. [00:04:30] Jim Jansen: That's fantastic. [00:04:31] Dcn. Al: And a month after we had our baby, I got diagnosed with a life-threatening condition that came on really fast. [00:04:38] Jim Jansen: Mm. [00:04:39] Dcn. Al: And so we went from everything going good to, yeah. We're in trouble, you know, and we don't know how this is gonna work out. [00:04:48] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:04:48] Dcn. Al: But it worked out, you know. But during that time, Terry and I really leaned on the Lord. Um, we really. It made our faith. It was our first challenge that we met as a couple. Mm-hmm. So it was really neat that not only did did we individually grow, but now we grew as a couple in it, you know? And when it was over and I got ended up recovering from it, it's like, what's our response? God gave us our life back. I mean, here. Wow. Here we were married, only 11 months, one month old baby. And I, I'm in serious trouble. And all of a sudden we get that back. Within a few months we get it back. And so it's like God gave us our life back. And what do you do with that? Well, both of us. And I've been so blessed to have a wife that is like this. It's like, well we, we have to serve God. He gave us this life. We gotta. We gotta get back. Yeah. And so, wow. Our whole marriage has been, uh, at the center of that has been God, uh, Christ and trying to, um, serve. So, I mean, that's 'cause you really comes from that. It comes from that, uh, we were blessed with a level of gratefulness from the Holy Spirit. Mm-hmm. You know, that and realizing what we could have lost and didn't. So [00:06:12] Jim Jansen: yeah. I mean, I, I see that, you know, I'm a, we're, we're now in, in the same parish family together. You remember Holy Ghost. I grew up, you know, at St. Bernadette. So Father Boyd's our, our pastor now and getting to know the Holy Ghost community man. There's the only person maybe more visible than Deacon Al and Deacon Tom are. Terry and Kathy, your, your wives. Yeah. In the Holy Ghost, uh, community. So it's beautiful to see that all sparked by like, we got our life back. [00:06:44] Dcn. Al: Yeah. Yeah. We got our life back. [00:06:46] Jim Jansen: When did Terry join the church? [00:06:47] Dcn. Al: She joined the church in, uh, it would've been April of 1982. [00:06:53] Jim Jansen: Okay, so it wasn't right away. No, sorry. It came later. [00:06:56] Dcn. Al: It would've been April of 81. 81. [00:06:58] Jim Jansen: Okay. [00:06:58] Dcn. Al: So we got, we got married in 80 November of 80. [00:07:02] Jim Jansen: Okay. So right around the same time. [00:07:03] Dcn. Al: Yep. And so five months later she was Catholic. [00:07:06] Jim Jansen: Okay. Was it part of, is that one of the fruits that came from the, the suffering and the, the trial you went through? [00:07:14] Dcn. Al: Well, that came after that, so the chronology was we got married, she came into the church, we had our first child, and then I got sick. It certainly prepared us for what was coming. [00:07:25] Jim Jansen: Right. Yeah. You were able, you were on the same page. Right, right. Oh, it was like a grace that preceded the. The challenge. Yeah. [00:07:33] Dcn. Al: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It got us ready for this challenge. [00:07:35] Jim Jansen: I wanna dive into this, right? Your, your experience with prison ministry here, but I wanna, I wanna set the context here because, you know, I was reflecting on this, that visiting the sick, visiting those in prison, you know, the, the burying the dead, the corporate works of mercy. These are, you know, if you're paying at all attention in, you know, grade school or catechism class, you know, you're, we're supposed, it's one of the works of mercy, but I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say most of our listeners here haven't been in a prison. Some sort, you know, I mean, I was thinking to myself, I was like, well, the closest thing I, I would sometimes put the kids in timeout and then I'd go visit my own children. But that, like, that's about as close as I've come. Most haven't. How did you like. Talk about the correctional sy system. Talk about prison ministry today. I mean, it's not quite like bringing, you know, a cloak and, and some food, you know, to St. Paul when he is in prison. Like, just give us a picture of like, what it's like. [00:08:40] Dcn. Al: Well, first of all, there's a really large difference between jail ministry and prison ministry. They're not the same thing. [00:08:46] Jim Jansen: Oh, good. Yeah. Say more. Distinguish that. [00:08:48] Dcn. Al: In, uh, jail ministry, you have a population that's very transit and it's, it's very, they're in great turmoil. So they've just been arrested, right? Right. Uh, they're in. [00:09:02] Jim Jansen: It's pretrial. They, they haven't been sentenced to anything yet. [00:09:05] Dcn. Al: Yeah, they don't, some of them don't even know what charges are gonna be brought against them yet. Right. So they don't know most of them, or a lot of them haven't had their hearing yet. Um, they're in the process of getting attorneys or they've had a hearing in their waiting trial or they're trying to get bonded out. Right? Or, and in the meantime, they're losing their jobs 'cause they're not at work, right? They're losing their homes, they're losing their apartments, their family relationships are all of a sudden in an upheaval. 'cause none of this is planned. Nobody plans to go to jail, right? Yeah. So it's just a real high stress time for these guys. So when you go in there. You're, you're talking to a population that is under a lot of pressure. [00:09:51] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:09:51] Dcn. Al: And there's a lot of anxiety. And. [00:09:54] Jim Jansen: Does that create more receptivity or less? [00:09:57] Dcn. Al: It depends on the individual. [00:09:58] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Makes sense. It really does. [00:09:59] Dcn. Al: They all handle it differently, but a lot of times it creates more receptivity, especially for those who have had any kind of exposure to a faith in the past. Mm-hmm. It's like, what else do they have to grab onto? Right. You know, everything is sinking around them. Yeah. And, and you are there to let them know a few things. Uh, you are there to let 'em know that they haven't been forgotten. Um, you're going through a difficult time, but believe it or not, God still loves you. [00:10:29] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:10:30] Dcn. Al: And if this is the worst thing you've ever done in your life. You are not the worst thing you ever did. That's not who you are. [00:10:37] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:10:37] Dcn. Al: There's gonna be light coming in. So your message is you want them to encounter the Lord in this mess that they're in, and to know that he's walking right there with you. 'cause if there's one thing, again, going back to what I went through, to go through something, knowing that someone's walking it with you is a lot easier. And if I, if easier is the improper word, it's a lot more doable. Right. If you're not doing it alone. So our presence is trying to tell them they're not alone and we're talking about Jesus and they're not alone. So in jail, that's kind of how it, yeah. It looks. A lot of times we'll visit someone and we'll only see 'em once. 'cause the next time we go in, they're gone. [00:11:22] Jim Jansen: Right. They're at a hearing, different facility, bonded out, whatever. What about kind, kind of contrast that for prison ministry? These are folks, they've been sentenced. They're, it's a longer stretch. [00:11:34] Dcn. Al: Yeah. It's a longer stretch. So that stress and anxiety of jail is done. Mm-hmm. They're, they've had their trials, they're sentenced, they're, now, they're in a place where they can start to develop a routine. Mm-hmm. Right. Get up in the morning, you do this, you do that, and all of a sudden they've got, and they, and they having sort of an idea of when they're getting out. [00:11:57] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:11:57] Dcn. Al: When they could possibly get out. They're, uh. It's just more structure for them. But they still have a lot of stress because now the stresses are different. The stresses they have faced now is, I'm not getting out for X number of years. When you meet with someone and they've lost their parents mm-hmm. They can't go to the funeral. [00:12:19] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:12:20] Dcn. Al: Or a brother or a child. And they can't, they're locked. You know, they're locked up, so they're not going anywhere. [00:12:27] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:12:28] Dcn. Al: And their life is, is all their relationships are still going on outside the walls. Mm-hmm. But they're no longer part of it. Kids graduating from high school, kids being born, if they were, you know, if the wife was pregnant before they went in. I mean, all of these things are taking place. [00:12:46] Jim Jansen: Well, and this is like, if I had just thought about it for a minute of like, of course, but just. It just is really hitting me as you talk about like, gosh, like, you know, it's, you think about how painful it is for people. It's like, oh man, because of work or expensive flights or military assignment, I'm gonna miss Thanksgiving or Christmas. They're like, I'm gonna miss all of it. Every family reunion, every special moment, every, I'm gonna miss it all. [00:13:17] Dcn. Al: Right. Gonna miss it all. And everything you've worked for, you have no way of keeping it really. It's very difficult. [00:13:26] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:13:27] Dcn. Al: And communication. So, so often, you know, we've got, you know, you got a cell phone you can pick up and call and make contact, email, whatever to anybody. [00:13:34] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:13:35] Dcn. Al: They're just a lot harder. They can, they can have some communication, but it's really limited. It's, it's uncertain. Times of certain days, you know, and if you all of a sudden. [00:13:45] Jim Jansen: Get access to a public compu computer for email. [00:13:48] Dcn. Al: Right. And so if you feel that you need to get something out to somebody now, or you hear through the grapevine that something's happening to your family now, you may not be able to contact them for quite a while. [00:14:01] Jim Jansen: Wow. [00:14:02] Dcn. Al: So, you know, so there's stresses there, but they're different stresses. They're different. But there is still stress and anxiety because of now it's more of a separation. [00:14:12] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:14:13] Dcn. Al: Uh, stresses and anxiety mm-hmm. That are taking place. [00:14:18] Jim Jansen: How, how did you get started in, in this ministry? Right? There was a lengthy application process and a set of interviews and you finally rose to the top for all the candidates. I'm teasing. I don't think so. How'd you get started? [00:14:32] Dcn. Al: Well, um, information. Part of our formation is, you know, taking on pastoral ministries. Mm-hmm. And you always want to do some that are outside of your parish. So there's plenty of pastoral ministries within your parish, but the archdiocese is great and they want you to get some experience doing things that you don't normally do and touching people and being with people that mm-hmm. You normally won't come in contact with. So I selected jail ministry and I went for several months up to the Washington County Jail, which is in Blair. [00:15:06] Jim Jansen: Okay. [00:15:08] Dcn. Al: And it's interesting. And that was in probably 2004, the year before ordination, so 2004. And when I got finished with it, my wife Terry asked me, how'd that go? I go, eh, you know, it's fine. I said, but I, I don't really think that's where God's calling me. Yeah. I don't, yeah, I don't, I'm not really gonna pursue that. It's just not, I don't think God's calling me there. So, and we go, right, get ordained 2005. And in 2013, chancellor Deacon Tim McNeil calls me up and says, we're, we're looking for someone who can, uh, be the jail and ministry coordinator for the Archdiocese of Omaha. [00:15:55] Jim Jansen: You're like, I'll keep my eye out. I'll let you know. [00:15:57] Dcn. Al: And, uh, I was just like, really? And, you know, and I was like. [00:16:03] Jim Jansen: What does this have to do with me? [00:16:05] Dcn. Al: Yeah. And I had just retired from my previous career a year earlier, and I was just, um, piddling with some things that I was doing, which [00:16:12] Jim Jansen: is a fun aside. You were a pilot and an air traffic controller Right, too. Which is just, but those are fun professions. They great professions here. [00:16:22] Dcn. Al: So I, I was, I, I was able to do something. Yeah. And so I met with, uh, now Deacon Omar Gutierrez mm-hmm. With the Office of Mission and Justice. And, uh, he told me about the job and the position, the actually ministry. Right. And, uh, I said, well, I'll pray about it. So I prayed about it and I said, well, this is, this is where when you become ordained, I think is different than when you're, and I am only speaking for my case. I can only speak for me. When I was in the laity, I felt I had, uh, great choices in what I could pick up and put down. Yeah. And when I could pick them up and when I could put them down. But through ordination, you learn that. Be ready. 'cause God's probably gonna call you someplace where you may not necessarily expect or even wanna go. [00:17:15] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:17:16] Dcn. Al: But if that's the door that he's opened, then you have to really seriously consider it. [00:17:20] Jim Jansen: I mean, it, it's why they call it holy orders. [00:17:23] Dcn. Al: Orders. Right? [00:17:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. There's, there's an obedience there that was not, wasn't true earlier. [00:17:28] Dcn. Al: Yes. And through the, through the people, the, the archbishop has appointed. Mm-hmm. You've been, this door has been opened. Yeah. And you've gotta take that real serious, whether you like it or not. I never, uh, other than that short stint of doing jail ministry, I'd never done it before. So it's like, and you want me to run it? [00:17:48] Jim Jansen: It, yeah. [00:17:49] Dcn. Al: You know, you, you, so, but um, yeah. Uh, I'd done a lot of coordinating things in my former career. Sure. You knew how to coordinate. Yeah. Lots of projects, lots of people. And so I said, yeah, we'll give it a shot and if it works out, fine. If, if it doesn't seem to work, there's plenty other. People that can do it. Yeah. So I took it on. [00:18:11] Jim Jansen: I'm gonna and go out on a limb here. Do you like it now? [00:18:14] Dcn. Al: Oh yeah. I love it. It's, it's great, you know, but you just, you just open up to where God is. He'll provide everything you need. [00:18:23] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:18:23] Dcn. Al: You know, and that's another thing you, you know, in your head he will, but until it actually happens, you don't appreciate that. Uh, and I do appreciate it because he's made it, he's given me everything I need. Not saying I've done it right all the time at all, but he's, he's allowed me to, to progress and, and to help others in this ministry. And, and I think we, we have a, a pretty good ministry going. Um, we're always looking Yeah. You know, to improve it. But we have a, a really good group of people. That, um, are making this thing happen. [00:19:01] Jim Jansen: Deacon, what have you seen the Lord provide? [00:19:03] Dcn. Al: Well, personally, he's provided me with a greater understanding of people who are incarcerated, first of all. [00:19:11] Jim Jansen: Hmm. Say more. [00:19:13] Dcn. Al: Well, there's some common, it's not universal, but there's some trends [00:19:20] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm. [00:19:20] Dcn. Al: Among the, uh, incarcerated population. Right. And, uh, the trends are, the largest trend is family brokenness. When you sit down with people. I, I related earlier how my family was, we learned about God at an early age. I was surrounded by loving parents. Mm-hmm. And just had every, we weren't rich by any means materially. [00:19:46] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:19:46] Dcn. Al: But we certainly had everything we needed in our formation. [00:19:49] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Right. The rich in love. Rich in relationships. [00:19:51] Dcn. Al: Rich. Yeah. It was wonderful. So many of the incarcerated never had any of that. [00:19:56] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:19:57] Dcn. Al: So many of them. Uh, and now I work with 95% males for me, personal contact. So my experience with the males is are that the vast majority of them had very little, if any, formation, especially male role models, positive male role models and mentorship. Yeah. They've had role models. [00:20:19] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, right. Not but unhelpful ones. [00:20:21] Dcn. Al: Unhelpful ones. [00:20:22] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I remember you probably are familiar with this anecdote. There's a, a story, so I mean, I mean, I get it perfectly right here, but you know that there was this. Free Mother's Day card initiative that, I dunno, hallmark somebody, you know, provides, and they, you know, there's this huge response from prisoners who want these free cards for their, you know, for their moms. And they, you know, they're sending cards. They love you, mom, and it's beautiful. And then they're like, all right. Wow. And it was just kind of a half baked idea. They're like, well, let's really go all out for Father's Day. And then they do. And, and there was no demand. Yeah. Yeah. Because most of these men had not had father figures as a part of their life. They had nobody to send a card to. [00:21:03] Dcn. Al: Yeah. They either. [00:21:04] Jim Jansen: Or nobody that they wanted to. [00:21:05] Dcn. Al: Right. They either had no contact with their dad. Many of them don't even know who their father is, which is just heartbreaking. Yeah. [00:21:15] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:21:15] Dcn. Al: And I've sat down with guys whose fathers are the ones who taught them how to cook meth. Yeah. Their, their dads are the ones that taught them how to steal cars. [00:21:24] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:21:24] Dcn. Al: You know, I mean, or an older brother. [00:21:28] Jim Jansen: Right. [00:21:28] Dcn. Al: You know, or an uncle, not everyone. I've had guys in prison that have come from just really solid, solid families, but they chose to do otherwise, but the vast majority of them just have, uh, been failed in their formation. Yeah. It's not an excuse for doing wrong. It really helps when someone tells you what's how to do things right versus how to do things wrong. [00:21:56] Jim Jansen: Right. Well, and I mean, thethe, it arouses at me. I think about like the dumb stuff that I've done. A fair amount of it is either a misguided attempt to win, the approval to imitate either a real person. Or like a pretend person, but like, basically like, uh, a father, brother, male figure. I mean, it's so much of us in men that we're herd animals. We wanna like, you know, we want to fit into this vision of what it means to be a man. And I can't imagine how hard it would be if the men in your life are leading you astray. Yeah. How hard it would be to resist that. [00:22:43] Dcn. Al: Yeah, it is. I, I remember one young man, he's coming into the Catholic church. Uh, it's one of the things we, we, we can talk about. Um, he's coming into the church, but, you know, so I'm taking him through an OCIA steps. [00:22:59] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:22:59] Dcn. Al: And we get to the 10 Commandments and we're going through them and we get to lying and, you know, and, and thou shalt not bear false witness and then breaking it open. This includes all lying. He says, wait, wait a minute. He says, [00:23:13] Jim Jansen: yeah. [00:23:14] Dcn. Al: Are you telling me I can't lie? Lying is not a, a sin. I said, oh, yeah it is. And yes, you can't lie. He says, I would've died if I couldn't have lied. [00:23:26] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:23:26] Dcn. Al: If I, if I didn't lie to the people around me, I wouldn't be sitting here in front of you right now. And it's, and so you have to, okay, let, let's. [00:23:35] Jim Jansen: Yeah. That's not your everyday catechism class. Yeah. [00:23:37] Dcn. Al: And so you have to say, okay, let's back up and let's walk through this. And so we spent a couple sessions walking through that, and at the end of it, he says, look, okay, deacon, now, he says, I'll tell you this. He says, I'm with you and I'm gonna keep going through this and I'm gonna become Catholic. He says, I just gotta tell you. He said, you gotta know how hard this is. [00:23:57] Jim Jansen: Man. That's, that's awesome. [00:24:00] Dcn. Al: Yeah. You gotta know how hard this is. [00:24:02] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:24:02] Dcn. Al: Uh, because it's a, I was speaking a different language to him. Yeah. Completely different language to him. [00:24:08] Jim Jansen: I mean, again, it's just like, you know, I don't wanna stay here too long, but just how, not having heard the commandments, not having had someone say, by the way, lying iss wrong. It's like, that's just such a different, it's like, oh, okay. We're not gonna assume that. I mean, that's just, yeah. You've already kind of given us a glimpse of this, but what do you do? Like what, you know, you're like, you, you kinda walk in there and I know there's, you know, background checks and processing and all that, but once you're like, clink, you know, like the door clanks behind you, you're sitting down with, with somebody, a group or whatever, like what is actually happening in prison ministry? [00:24:48] Dcn. Al: Well, um, kind of depends if it's in a jail or a prison, but let's talk about jail. [00:24:53] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:24:54] Dcn. Al: You walk in there and you just really, you just treat 'em like people. You start with that. [00:24:59] Jim Jansen: Wait, that's crazy. Hang on. I need to write that down. [00:25:01] Dcn. Al: You're just guys. [00:25:02] Jim Jansen: Treat them like people. [00:25:05] Dcn. Al: Yeah. [00:25:05] Jim Jansen: Okay. Say more. [00:25:06] Dcn. Al: Or treat them as the persons they are would probably be a better way to phrase it, right? [00:25:11] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:25:11] Dcn. Al: But you just say, Hey guys, how's it going? You know, and you start to talk, you know, little conversations. How's, how's your day? Blah, blah, blah. And then, uh, they, the people that come to meet us, they know we're there to share some scripture or share something religious with them. They're not forced. [00:25:29] Jim Jansen: Right, right. Right. They're, they're voluntarily. [00:25:31] Dcn. Al: They're voluntarily so. [00:25:32] Jim Jansen: Well, they they're with you voluntarily. [00:25:34] Dcn. Al: Yeah, they're with me voluntarily. And, and that could be just because they wanna get out of their cell for an hour, or they might actually want something. It's, it's depending on Right. Why they're there. But they, they've come on their own power and their own volition, and they're ready to, to hear whatever you have to, to hear. What we normally do in most cases is we bring the readings. With us that were from the closest mass, either previous Sunday mm-hmm. Or the Sunday about to happen. Right. And we just talk about the word of God with them. We just kind of read through 'em and mm-hmm. And say, well, what do you think? And let's, let's talk. And then as they talk, we, that gives us information to go deeper where they're at. Mm-hmm. And, and that sort of thing. So we just have a conversation with them, you know, we just converse with them and, uh. [00:26:25] Jim Jansen: Okay, this is like, not rocket science. [00:26:26] Dcn. Al: No, no, this is, and then we use every opportunity to tell 'em that they're loved and that Yeah, we're there because, uh, we respect them and, and we wanna spend some time with them and let 'em know that God hasn't forgotten yet and we're a little evidence of that. And, uh, yeah. So, yeah. I mean, it's just spending time with people. [00:26:48] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Deacon, I know you've got like a mountain of stories here. What kind of response have you seen? [00:26:54] Dcn. Al: Well, it's everything from. This is garbage to people giving their lives over to Jesus. I mean, it runs the whole gambit, you know? But most of the time it's, they're reflecting on their situation mm-hmm. Where they're at, and they're trying to figure out the next step, and they're trying to realize that God's with him and he'll help him get to that next step. [00:27:19] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:27:19] Dcn. Al: That's what, that's what's on the mind in jail of most of the guys is, is, yeah, I gotta get through this. And is God, does God even care that I'm here? [00:27:30] Jim Jansen: Well, and you know, it occurs to me as we talk about, you know, we're, we're focused in on kind of one of the corporal works for Mercy, but all of the Corporal works works the, and the spiritual works for that matter, but like the Lord is directing our attention to people in need. Yes. People who are thirsty, hungry, naked, in prison. There's, there's a, they're in a space of vulnerability, e experiencing, you know, their poverty, whatever it is, that there's a space of vulnerability there that he's like, you're gonna find some receptivity here. Like, go, go get 'em. And he is, he's directing our, our, our attention. And there in a way that, you know, I'm, again, I'm blending both the works of Mercy and the Beatitudes, but he's like, man, woe to you who are rich and comfortable and satisfied 'cause you're, 'cause we're often not open in those circumstances. [00:28:22] Dcn. Al: Right. And what's really touching is when you go in, let's say I go to Sarpy County, me and two other deacons take turns going into Sarpy County. And, uh, you'll talk to, it's happened many times. We talked to someone, we leave and then next week we come and he comes back and he's got two guys with him. He's a missionary. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, you guys gotta come. We had a great talk last week. You need to, you need to. Sit down with these guys and talk. So here's a guy who found a breadcrumb who's [00:28:55] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm [00:28:56] Dcn. Al: sharing it, you know? [00:28:57] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:28:57] Dcn. Al: Which is really neat. It's like, wow. That's, that's really cool that even in jail, you know, people share what is good with someone else. Yeah. They can recognize the need in someone else, um, even in their poverty, and they can bring another person over, you know? So that's really, uh, touching when that happens. And it happens quite often, you know? So, yeah. [00:29:25] Jim Jansen: Al, I want to give you a chance to talk a little bit about just some of the volunteers. I mean, you've got, you, you get the chance to work with some amazing people, those you're serving. I mean, there's like, you know, there are a lot of really powerful stories of lives change and people joining the church and, uh, I've been edified on several occasions. We're just, you know, hanging out before a, a, you know, a meeting at, at Holy Ghost or St. Bernadette, and you're just telling a story of somebody like they're taking the gospel with a seriousness that is inspiring, but there's a lot of volunteers that make this, you know, make this work. Talk a little bit about those folks. [00:30:03] Dcn. Al: Well, yeah, and, and to your previous question earlier about what has God shown me, right? Yeah. He's shown me this incredible charity that other people have and that he works through everyone, because I couldn't, no one person could. Do all the jail and prison ministry in the archdiocese. I mean, we've got like nine different jails and three prison facilities and a couple of youth facilities. So nobody could do that. And so we depend on people out there to get engaged. Mm-hmm. And we have roughly 50 volunteers, archdiocese wide. [00:30:42] Jim Jansen: Okay. [00:30:43] Dcn. Al: Priests who are helping with masses and, and bringing the sacraments in probably about 20 deacons that are involved. Okay. At various facilities and probably 20 to 25 lay people. That are involved. [00:31:00] Jim Jansen: Wow. [00:31:00] Dcn. Al: And these folks, I've been doing it since 2013. And there were folks, there are folks doing it now who are already doing it then. So they've been going into a jail or prison once a week, every week, month after month, year after year. Yeah. Giving of their time, um, bringing the word of God to people out in, uh, Platte County. There was a woman there, she was an amazing lady, and, uh, she was actually a corporate buyer for JCPenney. They would fly a corporate plane into Columbus to pick her up. And take her across the country buying for JC Penney. [00:31:43] Jim Jansen: So she would like, she'd be the one who's like, all right, we're gonna get that blue dress. Blue dress, and it's gonna be in all the pennies. [00:31:47] Dcn. Al: Yeah. Wow. And she dressed to the nines. I mean, she, very lovely lady. And she dressed to the Hil, right? Yeah. So you have to picture this. [00:31:56] Jim Jansen: Staff discount, I'm sure. [00:31:57] Dcn. Al: Sure. So you have to picture this lady in, in really sharp clothing, four inch high heels. Right. [00:32:06] Jim Jansen: Wow. Walking into prison. [00:32:07] Dcn. Al: Walking into the Platte County Jail. The old jail. [00:32:09] Jim Jansen: The old, okay. [00:32:10] Dcn. Al: The old jail in the old county courthouse, I think it was in the county courthouse. And back then the door of a cell didn't have, there was a little square window in it, but nothing opened. So you couldn't talk, talk to somebody in a jail cell. It was, wasn't the bars you see in the Western movies? Right. It's a solid steel door. Okay, wow. With a little three inch, four inch square window that you could peek in and see. And that's all that's there. But at the bottom of the door. There's another door that lifts open and that's where they slide the food tray in and out. Uhhuh. So it's a little door at the bottom. This woman would go in there, get on her hands and knees, open that door and talk to an inmate about Jesus. And then she would go to the next one and the next one. So can you imagine coming down there and seeing this lady on her hands and knees bent, you know, on the floor, sharing scripture with an inmate on the other side. And she did that for years and she was the only one pretty much for several, I mean, decades that talked to these guys. [00:33:20] Jim Jansen: Wow. [00:33:20] Dcn. Al: And later when they built the another jail where you could actually have a room and bring them in, she was able to get a couple people to help her. [00:33:29] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:33:30] Dcn. Al: But she went in every single week. And when I became the coordinator. I spoke with her, and by then she was in her early eighties and she said, you know, I think I might have to back off from going every week. I said, you think it took us, uh, she had a team of, I think three or four that were helping her, but to replace her to do everything that she was doing. Yeah. We had to build a team of, of about 17 people. [00:34:03] Jim Jansen: Wow. I mean, I believe it, you know, as you tell that, I mean, it was so moving. I could picture like her on her knees trying to, you know, get this down on this, like this low window, and it struck me. It's like, well, she's on her knees. Yeah. It's an act of worship. [00:34:19] Dcn. Al: Mm-hmm. [00:34:19] Jim Jansen: She, she's seeing Jesus in one of his most distressing disguises. Yeah. To, you know, to borrow a, a phrase from Mother Teresa. She's seeing him hiding there in, in, uh, those who are incarcerated. And she's coming to love him to tend to his wounds. [00:34:36] Dcn. Al: Yeah. And then on top of that, she took her own money and started a halfway house because she was tired of seeing guys get outta jail with no place to go. [00:34:49] Jim Jansen: Okay. See, that's a whole nother conversation. Talk a little bit about that. 'cause I know you've done a little bit and there's a, there's a couple of folks, you know, uh, in our parish family that you've been able to help transition. Mm-hmm. You know, they're, they're out of prison now, they're trying to become upstanding members of the community. You're like, Hey, I know a church. Uh, talk a little bit about that transition. [00:35:08] Dcn. Al: Well, it's very difficult for the guys. [00:35:12] Jim Jansen: At the risk of being sounding dumb. What's hard about it? [00:35:15] Dcn. Al: Most of the time, again, there's a difference between jail and prison. So talk more about the prison. [00:35:20] Jim Jansen: Sure. Yeah. [00:35:21] Dcn. Al: 'Cause it's harder for the prison. [00:35:23] Jim Jansen: Right? 'Cause they've been there for a while, they've been there a long time, and it's like, and there's a routine, right? And, and a, uh, literally like a structure that instantly disappears. [00:35:33] Dcn. Al: Right? Because they have their medical there, they have their food. [00:35:38] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:35:38] Dcn. Al: Their bedding, their housing, their little community that they're a part of, whatever that's evolved into. [00:35:45] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:35:45] Dcn. Al: And now all of a sudden, and a, and a bit of a wall around any addictions or some problems that they may have fought on the outside. Right. Right. Uh, whether it's alcoholism, drug abuse, whatever, it's a bit more challenging to satisfy those in prison. It's not impossible, but it's more difficult. So when they, when they're getting out, the anxiety really goes up because if you think about the mountain of things they've gotta acquire. Yeah. Most of them no longer have a driver's license. Yeah. So they don't even have a state id. [00:36:16] Jim Jansen: Oh my gosh. You're, you're finally free and your first op is the DMV. [00:36:21] Dcn. Al: Mm-hmm. [00:36:22] Jim Jansen: Gosh, that. [00:36:22] Dcn. Al: Feels like you went back in, in, right. [00:36:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Oh my goodness. [00:36:26] Dcn. Al: So they don't have any IDs, they don't have any driver's licenses. They have, if they don't have family here. And keep in mind, prison people come from all over to go to a prison. Right, right. Most of the people who are at the prison, a good share of them aren't from that area. [00:36:42] Jim Jansen: I mean, Al when they get out of prison, are they just like, I mean, they just walk 'em to the front door and let 'em go? [00:36:47] Dcn. Al: Well, there's two ways, but about half of them, yes, there's the front door. Hope someone's here to pick you up. Have a nice day. Hope we don't see you back. And that's it. We do have, oh, uh, Nebraska does have. Work release centers where for those who qualify, and I have no idea what the matrix is on that mm-hmm. But they can transition over to a work release center where they're technically still incarcerated. Right. But they can get a job, start laying their foundation. Right. [00:37:19] Jim Jansen: They get some momentum before they're out. [00:37:21] Dcn. Al: Before they're out. And that's, I, I find in, I don't know what the hard statistic is, but it appears to me it's about 50 50. And, uh, so for the ones that are going to work release, it's a little easier. Right. Because they've had some, they have some transition time [00:37:37] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm [00:37:38] Dcn. Al: to to do everything. But it's not easy because they still don't have any transportation. When they go to the work release center, there's no shuttles taking them around. There's nobody. Doing anything for you really. [00:37:51] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:37:52] Dcn. Al: Um, you, you need to figure this out and, uh, and, and do it by following the rules. 'cause if you don't, you, you'll be put back in prison. [00:38:00] Jim Jansen: Right. [00:38:01] Dcn. Al: Uh, and you're on a timeline, so, you know, there's a lot to be done. [00:38:05] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:38:06] Dcn. Al: So lining up jobs, lining up housing, uh, and then of course the stress of, well, if I go back to my old community, all my old friends that were there before the, that I got in trouble with are, are waiting for me to come home. [00:38:21] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:38:22] Dcn. Al: And the addictions that I've been able to stay away from are gonna be right at hand now. [00:38:27] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:38:27] Dcn. Al: You know, so can I fight this? You know, so, yeah. They've got a lot plus whatever. 'cause most of the guys in prison. I mean, a majority, I, I would say over 50% have some kind of drug or alcohol abuse problem. [00:38:43] Jim Jansen: Right. I mean, Al just the little, and I know we're just scratching the surface here, but this sounds like an overwhelming challenge. Do you know roughly like what the recidivism rate is? Where, where guys come back? [00:38:56] Dcn. Al: I don't know what it is in Nebraska, but um. It's significant. [00:39:01] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I mean, the odds can't, can't be good. 'cause this is just hard. Just there's a good, a very human level. [00:39:06] Dcn. Al: There's a good share of them that don't make it out of the work release center. They violate a rule or they can't do it, and they find themselves back over in prison. Right. Because if you can't transition, then you're gonna go back and serve the rest of your time. And then when that's completed, you're just gonna be doors open, you're out and release, you're on your own. Which sounds like an even tougher trans transition. Which is even tougher. Yeah. Because, uh, you have nothing. Uh, or some do, some have family, some have some things worked out, but a lot of 'em don't. Yeah. A lot of don't have that. [00:39:39] Jim Jansen: Al, I wanna give you a chance to just to tell some stories about the lives you've seen changed. I've heard you tell a, a, a couple, I'm thinking about one of them, you know, the individual, and this may be like which one, but, but who, who, as they were accepting the gospel, recognized it was going to mean the loss of family and friends and all that. Just talk a little bit about what you've seen in terms of lives changed. [00:40:07] Dcn. Al: Yeah. So I've seen guys that everything from gang members who were, weren't just run of the mill gang members. These guys were leadership. Mm-hmm. Gang members that put it behind them, that after they came in and quiet the first month or two, and this is on their journey, uh, in investigating the church, right? They think they want. This religion And, uh, so they're kind of quiet and they listen. But then the more they learn and the more they learn about love, the more they learn what love is, the cost of love, and they start to figure out what it's cost them not to have it, you know? And what. [00:40:57] Jim Jansen: Wow. [00:40:58] Dcn. Al: They start to realize what the cost of what they were doing was actually costing them. What it was keeping them from. They, they see the money or whatever that it was giving them, but they don't see everything else that it was costing them. And when they figure that out and then they start to develop a relationship with Jesus, I've seen, I've seen two of them, no three of 'em completely to date, give up that whole lifestyle. You know, completely say never again. I'm, we're going a different way. [00:41:31] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:41:31] Dcn. Al: You know, and, and to see them really say that it doesn't matter to them anymore. You, they, they sound like you could flash a significant amount of money in their face and they'd say, nah, not interested. Yeah, not interested. That's not what I'm after anymore. Used to be, but that's not what I want now. I want my kids, I wanna marry the woman I was living with. [00:41:52] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:41:53] Dcn. Al: I wanna have a family. I, you know, I wanna have more kids. I want them not to be what I was. Mm-hmm. You know, I didn't have a dad and I wanna be a dad for my kids. You know, that sort of thing. That's amazing. You know, and, and the, the young man you're talking about, he was a of a faith. That said, if you leave our faith, you leave our family. Mm-hmm. And the faith demands that if you leave this faith, you can't have contact with your family. And as he was going through and came into the Catholic church in 2019, he knew that was the cost of it. And he's still in prison. He'll be in prison still for a few more years and he's lost all contact with his family. They can't talk to him anymore. And, uh, I talked to him regularly and he said one day he said, I can't go back. [00:42:50] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:42:50] Dcn. Al: He says, I, I know the truth. I love the truth. I love the Eucharist. I love Jesus. I love the Catholic church. But he said to me, Deacon Al, how come an has to cost so much? [00:43:01] Jim Jansen: Hmm. [00:43:01] Dcn. Al: Because he still loves his mom, his sisters. [00:43:04] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:43:05] Dcn. Al: And, uh, his family, he loves him and he, and it really hurts that he can't be with them. [00:43:11] Jim Jansen: Yeah. 'cause they're staying away because they're, they're kind of, their religion says like, all right, now he's, he's gone. He's gone. Yeah. [00:43:19] Dcn. Al: Yeah. You know, and I've seen guys who, who just were so disordered in their thinking that once they hear the gospel and they, so one thing I always wanna make sure I tell people is we, we meet an inmate where they are, but we don't leave them there. Yeah. We'd never, I, I always think people forget that second part. You know, we always wanna meet people where they are. Yes. But we never, ever, ever wanna leave them there. 'cause God has more for them. So to watch, to have met someone where they were. [00:43:56] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:43:56] Dcn. Al: And a year, two years, five years later, see where they are there and see the, the mountain that they've climbed and where, how much higher they are. God always wants to take you. To the next step, to the next level. The mountain never ends. You know, I think, uh, the definition of sloth is realizing God wants to take you to the next step and you don't wanna go. Hmm. You're happy where you're at, right? Yeah. And we're not about that. We're not about, well you're this and that's all you're gonna be and we'll try to meet you there, but we have no place we're gonna take you. No, we have a place we want. And by, well, God wants to take them there. [00:44:38] Jim Jansen: You know? Right. [00:44:39] Dcn. Al: And we'll tell 'em the gospel. We'll give them the teachings of the church and then between them and God, they'll figure out if they want to go on that journey or not, you know? And so many of them go, yeah. They just, okay, this is where, and for the first time in their lives, they're being called to something that is more than positive. It's life giving. Right. Their whole lives have been, so many of their lives have been about death about. Death in death many ways. Yeah. Spiritual death, all the different, yeah. All the different ways of dying is what they've had, and they haven't had any life. And so when they realize that, oh, I, I can live different and there's more in life and there's more, and they go, it's just, it's amazing to watch them, you know? And not everybody does. Mm-hmm. Um, not everybody does. The sad thing about it is like, I go out to the Omaha Correctional Center, and I would say that the population there probably on, on any day, 700 plus, there's probably only a hundred, 150 men there that are living any kind of faith, life, engaging, whether it be Protestant, Catholic, you know, whoever, anything. Yeah. Anything. Maybe 150, you know? Yeah. So the vast majority of them. Don't care. They're, they're not there. Um. [00:46:05] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:46:05] Dcn. Al: And, but we don't focus on that. We focus on the ones who are open to the message and we work with them. So it's not a numbers game. [00:46:15] Jim Jansen: Right. [00:46:16] Dcn. Al: And I've been very, when I started, I was very discouraged at times when you walk in and, well, when I started, I had one guy that would come to my RCI, not my RCI, my bible study. I had one guy, his name was John. John. And I would talk for an hour, and John would leave and I would leave. And it's like, why am I coming here? But last Sunday in the group, there were 18 men and there. [00:46:39] Jim Jansen: That's, that's awesome. So, you know, deacon, this is not the only way you serve. Um, you know, you're, you're coordinating Alpha for our family of parishes, uh, holy Ghost and, and Bernadette obviously, you know, serving as a, as a deacon in the parish, what is, what has prison. And in jail ministry taught you about like every day evangelization on the outside. [00:47:07] Dcn. Al: Well, it's taught me that it's, uh, portable because whatever I do in the jails or prisons, the questions that I get asked in jail and prison, the amount of emotional poverty that's there is outside too. [00:47:25] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:47:25] Dcn. Al: The, the concerns of this are similar, um, maybe dynamically different or, but they're, they're very similar and it's that you have to tell, tell people about Jesus, you know, it's just, it's just sharing the gospel. [00:47:41] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:47:42] Dcn. Al: That's what we need to do is share the gospel. And I don't even know if I fully grasp that when I was ordained of how that looks. Exactly. [00:47:52] Jim Jansen: What are your, what are your convictions now? I mean, again, not to be silly about it, but. You have a captive audience. Mm-hmm. Right. When you're, when you're doing jail and prison ministry and these guys are coming, it's different on the outside, and yet there's the same, like, what do you, yeah. How are you different? How are your app? Maybe the approach is like, how are, how is your approach different now? [00:48:18] Dcn. Al: Well, the approach that's different from prior to prison and jail ministry is listen first. [00:48:27] Jim Jansen: Mm. [00:48:28] Dcn. Al: Get to know people first. Figure out, we always say, again, meet 'em where they're at. We'll, do you know where they're at? You can't assume where they're at. 'cause some, right. Sometimes I kind of can maybe take more liberties of a guy sitting across me in a jail and where he is at. He's in a bad place. [00:48:46] Jim Jansen: There's some assumptions like, how was your day? I'm, I'm gonna guess it wasn't great. I'm in jail, you know? Yeah. [00:48:51] Dcn. Al: Versus if I meet somebody on the street and they're, they've got a, they're wearing a $600 suit and they're driving a Jaguar, I might think he's in a great place, but he could be in a horrible place. [00:49:04] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:49:04] Dcn. Al: You know? [00:49:04] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:49:05] Dcn. Al: So the first thing you have to do. [00:49:07] Jim Jansen: But he might be locked up on the inside. [00:49:08] Dcn. Al: Locked up on the inside. [00:49:09] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:49:09] Dcn. Al: So I think an evangelization, what I've learned before I start doing anything is, is just talk and get to know somebody and figure out, you know, where are they at? Mm-hmm. Where are they at and where do they want to go and do they want go there. [00:49:22] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:49:23] Dcn. Al: You know? [00:49:24] Jim Jansen: And if not, there's very little we can do. Right. To, to foster that desire. [00:49:30] Dcn. Al: Yeah. Other than the invite, just continually Yeah. Yeah. Be present, continually make an invite. But I've also learned, um, and I take it. On the outside is mm-hmm. It's not my job to convert 'em. [00:49:44] Jim Jansen: Yes. It's, yes. [00:49:45] Dcn. Al: That's not my job. My job is to introduce them to the Lord and to his word and to his church, and he'll do the rest in between God and Him or her. They'll figure it out and they'll either go or not go. But yeah, it's not my, it's not my role. [00:50:03] Jim Jansen: Yeah. You make the invitation, you sow the seed, share the gospel, and then see what happens. [00:50:09] Dcn. Al: And see what happens. [00:50:10] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:50:11] Dcn. Al: And you don't know what happens because immediately there'll be maybe no happen, but I've got one guy who's been coming to off and on to the Bible study that I do, and now to mass for five years. Hmm. And just this last Sunday, he's hemming and hawing. I said, well, you know, you're a lot more Catholic than you think. And he just laughed. He says, yeah, I know I am, but he hasn't come into the church yet, you know? Yeah. But that's okay. He, he knows, he's always welcome. He keeps coming in and he keeps inching closer and clo and if he comes in before he leaves, it'll be the longest process that I've ever seen. 'cause it's, it's, we're on about five years right now. [00:50:56] Jim Jansen: Yeah, man. That's awesome. [00:50:57] Dcn. Al: But he is not in yet. [00:50:59] Jim Jansen: Deacon, I just wanna talk a little bit, just, you know, as we, as we close here on the outside, right. Speaking of that, we've been serving together on the leadership team under our pastor Father Boyd. Talk a little bit about like that journey. We've been a little more than a year now together. What have you seen, what have you noticed? I mean, you've done parish ministry for quite a while. What, what's, what's that? What's that experience of been being on the, the leadership, been leadership team been for you? [00:51:29] Dcn. Al: Well, I've always known, and I think anybody who pays any attention, all has had, knows that our priests are fantastic men who need help. [00:51:40] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:51:41] Dcn. Al: Right? They, they're so committed. [00:51:43] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:51:44] Dcn. Al: Um, they've given their life to this, but they can't do everything, you know, theirs. Yeah. They can't do everything they need. Uh, and God has given us a great resource among our parish. Everything we have in our parish as far as human resource, you know, is there, uh, God has provided, and, uh, it just needs to be, uh, mustard into action. Everybody has something to give. There's no one. Who doesn't have something that Father couldn't put to good use. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, and I've been amazed at the array of talents that we have, even among the six people that we, our group. But it's also opened my eyes to the various talents of other people because of what we're trying to do and put together. You, I don't know about you, but I'm much more tentative to look at people and notice their talents. [00:52:41] Jim Jansen: It's easy to miss it. It's easy. Yeah. Yeah. And, but I'd love, I mean, you kind of started with a statement of faith there. It's like the Lord's already provided everything that we need. Mm-hmm. But there's something about, uh, again, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but there's something about the methodology when a pastor begins to draw capable lay leaders around himself. You know, people who share Huey Trusts share the, you know, shares the vision for, for where the, the, the parish needs to go. That it begins to kind of pretty quickly. Surface. Other leaders are like, well, you've been here the whole time where Yeah. And all of a sudden you start to see not just each other in a new way, but you start to see all these other people, I mean, I'm, I can think of like half a dozen names. I'm like, gosh, I've known you all my life and, 'cause I'm blessed to be back in the parish where I grew up and there's all this like gifting and talent that's been waiting to be called forth. [00:53:39] Dcn. Al: Yeah. It's latent that's just laying there ready to go. [00:53:42] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I think that's hopeful. But there's also a little, I mean, maybe just for me, there's a call to conversion in that because why haven't they been called forth? You know, why have, why have we let it be all on father's shoulders? Yes. Why is he let it be all on, all on his shoulders? [00:53:59] Dcn. Al: Yes. I think the old model, you know, and I'm not trashing an old, the older model because things have changed. [00:54:07] Jim Jansen: Right? [00:54:08] Dcn. Al: Right. Uh, it's not the same. Um, society was different, you know, but. Now we need to look at it and know where we are now. Right. And then react to where we are. Not what has been, but what is, you know? [00:54:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:54:25] Dcn. Al: Used to be you could fall into your little slot and that's where you were. [00:54:28] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [00:54:29] Dcn. Al: You know, or you could, or you could quietly stay away and you knew nobody was likely to come tap you, you know? [00:54:38] Jim Jansen: Right. [00:54:39] Dcn. Al: But it's, it's not the way, you know, now we have to really look for those resources we have to mine it, you know? [00:54:47] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The, the cool thing is, is like, oh, it's there. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's essentially, you know, you talk about that like, gosh, like so much has changed. I'm, I'm drawn back to a insight that, you know, one of the, one of the priests here at the Chancery shared that, you know, like 20, 30, 50 years ago. The priests were by far the most educated individuals in the parish. And so people would come to them for not just spiritual advice, but business advice and all the, all the stuff. And now there's a wealth of educational professional talent that honestly, that the task of pastoring a parish is, and, and especially when you get multiple parishes way more complex Yes. Than it was. And there's a talent base that, again, the pastors are still in charge. They're still the dads, but they can draw competent lay leaders into helping them be, you know, co-responsible for the, for the mission to make disciples. [00:55:45] Dcn. Al: Yeah. And I think that's an important point always to remember is that they're still the dads. Right? Right. Yes. 'cause they are our fathers. And, um, but we can certainly. Be their helpers. [00:55:58] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Well, think about it this way, right? It's like, okay, so they're the head, they're the, but like heads without bodies, arms and legs and torsos and like heads without bodies don't get much done. Right. And bodies without heads, I dunno. I mean, don't live, don't live. But like, but like, but when you have the two together, it's like, okay, now you can, now you can get something done. [00:56:20] Dcn. Al: Right? Yeah. And it's exciting. I, I will say it's absolutely, I'm more excited than I have been in years. And at the same time, in that excitement, I'm, I'm doing everything I can to surrender to the will of God. [00:56:38] Jim Jansen: Mm-hmm. [00:56:39] Dcn. Al: On how this is all gonna end up. [00:56:41] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I would say, well, and, and really, if we're honest about it, both of our parishes are kind of on the brink. Both have seen declining mass attendance for. 20, 30 plus years and something needs to turn around pretty quick. I find myself, but I think I'm hearing the same thing in you. It's like, I mean, we don't have a lot of data to show that we're on the right track, but we can feel it. There's a hopefulness and just trying to like make sure that it's really hope and not my expectations. It's like, no, whatever the Lord does with these communities, okay, that's up to him. But I can start to feel that he's at work. [00:57:21] Dcn. Al: Yeah. Well in his testament to that, I think we just signed up our 73rd person this morning for Alpha. Yes. Yeah. And what was neat about the conversation when the lady called. I said, you know, I said, I'm really looking forward to meeting you. I said, I've been so blessed to, you know, meet so many from St. Bernadette. And she said, I feel the same way. She said, the parishes are just more alive now. And that was unsolicited. It was just like, oh, okay. And so I'm hopeful. I think the parishioners, uh, it's a change bringing two parishes together for sure. But I think, I think, uh, we have the leadership between the two parishes who mm-hmm. Said, we're gonna embrace this, not fight it. Mm-hmm. Or even not be neutral on it. We, we, the leadership of the parishes haven't been neutral. They've been very positive and Yeah. That just bleeds down. It just goes Does, yeah. Through they see that and it's like, okay, you give them everybody else permission to embrace it too, I think to some degree. [00:58:27] Jim Jansen: Yeah. I, I agree. Al we could talk all day. I just wanna give you, our time has flown here. I just wanna give you a moment just for some kind of, you know, closing thoughts here. Prison, jail, ministry, lessons for evangelization, invitation for, you know, for somebody who's like, Hey, we got a space of the Washington County County, uh, jail team. We need your, not not in the jail, but for the team to visit. Yeah. Like, you, you take this wherever you want. What do you wanna say as we close up here? [00:58:57] Dcn. Al: Well, I just wanna go back to the volunteers that make this possible. There's so many of 'em. They operate without any fanfare. I would say most people in most parishes have no idea who's doing jail and prison ministry for sure. Yeah. You know, they have no idea. So they don't get rewarded. They don't get acknowledged much. They're, they're not doing it for accolades. Uh, they really are wanting to take the word of God to someone in poverty in that area. Yeah. Right. So I just can't thank them enough and recognize them enough for doing what they've been doing and doing it so well and for so long. And we do need more volunteers in certain areas. Um, yeah. If I could throw it out. [00:59:42] Jim Jansen: Please. How do people get ahold of you? [00:59:44] Dcn. Al: Yeah. Well, there's a number that I have, if you call the archdiocese, it's (402) 827-3743. Okay. You will have to leave a message because that's how it operates. Got it. But I will return a call. We need volunteers out in Columbus. We need volunteers up in Norfolk at the, because the jail up there is in Madison, Nebraska. Mm-hmm. Which is just south. We need, uh, volunteers. In those two facilities primarily. [01:00:14] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [01:00:15] Dcn. Al: So if anybody's interested in those areas, uh, that would be great. We would certainly, um, show you what it's about and. [01:00:24] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Get 'em orientated. Get 'em. [01:00:26] Dcn. Al: Yeah. [01:00:27] Jim Jansen: That's great. And we'll put, we'll put that number 4 0 2 8 2 7 3 7 4 3. We'll link that in the show notes. Al, can I put your email on the show notes too? [01:00:36] Dcn. Al: Sure. It's the a w Ulner, A-U-L-N-E r@archomaha.org. [01:00:44] Jim Jansen: Okay. We'll link to that. We'll link to that as well. [01:00:47] Dcn. Al: Yeah. Yeah. And I would just say too, that there's probably a little bit more. Families that you don't know about who have experienced an incarcerated member. Because again, it's not something you advertise. [01:01:01] Jim Jansen: Right? You don't, yeah. [01:01:02] Dcn. Al: I had a lady one time, I know her son was in prison in Lincoln and for four years she just said, oh yeah, he, he moved to Lincoln. He lives down there. Now. That was not untrue. But not untrue. [01:01:14] Jim Jansen: Yeah. Wow. [01:01:15] Dcn. Al: You know, so if you ever come across someone in that situation, just if you can accompany them and [01:01:22] Jim Jansen: mm-hmm [01:01:22] Dcn. Al: and let them know that it's not the end of the world. [01:01:26] Jim Jansen: Yeah. [01:01:27] Dcn. Al: But just do what you do with anyone else in a tough situation is just walk with them. Be ready to assist if you can because it's more prevalent than many people think. Deacon, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for what you do. [01:01:42] Jim Jansen: Great. Great chance to talk. Alright everybody. You're listening to this and you know somebody who needs to hear this. So take a moment, make sure you're safe, right? Don't try sharing the, show, the show out while you're, while you're driving. But when you get to your destination and you're done walking the dog, whatever it is, uh, share this out with a friend. Uh, maybe you, maybe you feel called to, uh, explore serving in pri prison ministry. Deacon, I'll get you, get you set up and going. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening to the Quip Cast. We hope this episode has inspired you to live your faith and equip you to be fruitful in your mission. Stay connected with us by going to equip.omaha.org. God bless and see you next time.