236 Carnation Revolution === [00:00:00] Mike: Oh, right, the world's sexiest water closet. I remember where that was and it was able to draw the mental map. in my head. Hello, and welcome to the Eurowhat, episode 236, dropping on July 2nd, 2024. We are a pair of Americans trying to make sense of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm Mike McComb, and I'm here with my co host, Ben Smith. Hey, Ben. [00:00:38] Ben: Hey Mike. [00:00:39] Mike: In this episode, we'll be talking about Portugal's Carnation Revolution. I read a book, Ben, please clap. Uh, [00:00:46] Ben: I'm, I'm clapping with my heart. [00:00:49] Mike: yeah, yeah. So, it's a year that ends in zero pew, pew, pew. It's. [00:00:53] Ben: Pew pew pew. [00:00:54] Mike: the 50th anniversary of Portugal's Carnation Revolution, which gets a mention in Eurovision circles because there is what I would describe as a very tangential Eurovision connection, uh, with the 1974 contest, but, there are a couple of reasons why I kind of wanted to dive into this topic this year. Um, one, it is the 50th anniversary, pew, the timing of this, it's right around Independence Day in the U. S., so it's like, oh, this seems like a lovely little tie in that we can do. And the way that we structure our seasons, we typically start off with a Welcome to the Host Country episode. But, when we started this podcast for the 2018 contest, we started it in January, so we didn't have, well, one, we did not have a format figured out yet. [00:01:39] Ben: we were just sort of figuring it out in real time. [00:01:41] Mike: Yep, yep, we would not have had time to do a Welcome to Portugal episode, so this feels a little bit like a make good on that. to start things off, what is your familiarity with Portugal and the Carnation Revolution or any of the things that we may potentially talk about today? [00:01:57] Ben: Okay, so Portugal in general, there are a couple of those various airlines that fly from Boston to Portugal, and I get their ads in my Instagram all the time, and I do, I keep considering going because it seems like a lovely place to visit. Uh, and then in terms of, like, the Carnation Revolution, I have tried to remain, as, brain smooth, head empty about this as possible, just because I knew we were discussing it. But, I had been mentally conflating it with another thing that happened in 74, just because the 74 contest is not just ABBA, there are so many stories. I was thinking that this was the one that C was about, and I think that's Spain or Italy? Where it's, like, the divorce Only realized this morning, like, I think those are different things. Heh heh heh heh [00:02:39] Mike: 1974 is a party, let me tell you. yeah, okay, cool. So I think that is appropriate grounding and probably the general grounding that most people are going to have. on this topic, and we'll get into that, because that is part of the challenge of putting this episode together, I'll, I'll be honest, [00:02:58] Portugal at Eurovision --- [00:02:58] Mike: Portugal debuted at Eurovision in 1964, with the song by Antonio Calverio. this was back when the contest was a much smaller affair Portugal, finished in a four way tie with Germany, Switzerland, and Yugoslavia at zero points. [00:03:16] Ben: Oh no! [00:03:17] Mike: not, not the strongest debut, but this was also back when Eurovision had like the 5 3 1 voting system. And yeah, like finishing with zero points, a very high probability that that could [00:03:30] Ben: Yes. Just, like, incredibly possible. [00:03:32] Mike: Still not the greatest debut for anybody. a few years later, they were one of the countries that boycotted in 1970, after the, shenanigans of the four way tie in 1969. nobody seemed to complain about a four way tie at zero points. Why are they complaining about one in first place? But it took a while for a Portugal to kind of find their footing in the contest. But, in 1971 and 1972, they finished in the top 10. first appearances there. 1974, they competed with the song, a Deis Do A Deuce. Apologies for my pronunciation, by Paolo de Carvallo, I mean, we've seen the 1974 contest. It is a very strong year. There is a lot of stuff going on. unfortunately Portugal finished in last place again, but this time it was another four-Way tie with Norway, Germany, and Switzerland. Um, but they were in last place because of running order. Like they didn't use any sort of count back system, So if they applied the count back rule, Portugal would've finished in 14th. Out of 17, instead of last place, that's really kind of neither here nor there, but it's just like, hey, correct the record. they did get another top 10 in 1979 and in 1980, and then for, Most of the 1980s, they were back in the basement. their, next peak, was in 1996, where they finished in sixth place with O Miu Korsau Nau Temkor by Lucia Moniz. and that was a year where they had to actually qualify out of a semifinal, the 1996 semifinal, and that ended up being their highest placement in the contest, for quite a while. The following year, 1997, zero points again, and that put them on the path to relegation, and they were finally relegated in 2000, so they missed out on that contest. in 2002, they had to withdraw, from Eurovision for, budget reasons. Portugal is usually one of the ones that gets hit the most. By financial crises, when, when those happen. [00:05:30] Ben: Yeah, like, that is not the only one I recall of recent memory. But yeah, like, they seem more likely than most. Yeah. [00:05:36] Mike: but when they withdrew in 2002, relegation was still in effect and Latvia ended up taking their spot and Latvia went on to win that contest. So kind of baby lasagna to their way, uh, in, into hosting in 2003 , in 2003, that was, Portugal's first entry to have English lyrics along with Portuguese. and that one ended up finishing in 22nd place. So, um, yeah, I don't, I don't know if there's anything to read into that, but welcome back to the contest, Portugal. When the semifinals were introduced, Portugal struggled again, and they did not qualify for the final until 2008 with Senhora do Mar by Vania Fernandes. that is one that I think is one of the most popular performances. Portuguese entries. Like, I know it is in my husband's all time top 10. So, Portugal, qualified again in 09 and 2010. Got hit hard again by financial crisis. the 2011 entry, that was the, protest anthem song. Um, yeah, Luta el Agria. I think I may be mispronouncing that. But, that one was inspired by the Carnation Revolution of 1974, which we can kind of, which we will get into, Ultimately, Portugal had to sit out in 2013, again, for budgetary reasons. When they returned, did not qualify in 2014, did not qualify in 2015, ended up sitting out of the 2016 contest for what I have in my notes as come to Jesus reasons. the broadcaster really wanted to rejigger how they were showcasing Portuguese music And, needed to take a year, take a break, kind of figure some stuff out. which ended up working out in 2017. That was the year that Salvador Sobral's Amarapelo Stoich, ended up taking Eurovision by storm. it received 382 points from the jury, which is the highest jury score, that's, Received 376 points from the Televote, which ties Televote score from last year, and is the second highest Televote score for any entry, The total score of 758 points is the highest winning score so far. And this is the only song since they introduced the split scoring method in 2016 to win both the jury and the televote, uh, which I think is a kind of interesting factoid, an interesting quirk of the split voting system. [00:08:13] Ben: That 2017 entry, there is just a spreadsheet somewhere deep in our Google Drive that has a cell with a note. From me, I'm just like, this is, this is really lovely, but it's gonna get absolutely curb stomped by the competition, and I was so wrong. [00:08:27] Mike: Yep. . Yeah. 20 17. Kind of a weird year. Maybe not the most memorable one, but yeah. That I, I, I feel like that song was a very deserving winner and was like, correct. so by winning in 2017, Portugal earned the right to host in 2018, uh, which happened to be Portugal's 50th Eurovision participation, pew, pew, pew [00:08:48] Ben: Pew pew pew! [00:08:51] Mike: they were represented with the song, U Shadi. and unfortunately that finished in last place, but it finished in last place with 39 points. if you got 39 points this year, you would have finished in 19th place. So like that is a very high score. And as far as I can tell, uh, again, it gets into kind of apples and oranges territory once you get, beyond 2016, but, that is the highest scoring last place song. So. very high quality there, so good job Portugal. Portugal did miss qualifying in 2019 with Telemoveus, but has been pretty solid ever since. they've qualified every year 2021 onward. There have been 25 Portuguese entries that have been part of the ESC 250. three of them have our, iconic status. Uh, so 1969, 1996, their 2008 entry. I expect, Amarapelojo Dois to, be in there in a couple of years. Uh, just need, just needs a few more [00:09:49] Ben: That one, the only reason that one's not there is time. [00:09:51] Mike: Exactly, yes. Um, yeah, I don't think its popularity is going to drop off precipitously in the next two years. their entry from 1991 just needs one more appearance, to hit that magic ten, appearances, looking at their back catalogue, only five songs in their entire run have had non Portuguese lyrics. their 2021 entry, Love is on My Side by Black Mamba, is the only one to not have Any Portuguese. So yeah, that, that one is an interesting outlier, in their, very deep bench of songs. [00:10:24] Ben: when I think of Portugal at Eurovision, They are one of the nations that I would say marches to their own drumbeat. It's just like, they have a very clear sense of their identity and what they want to showcase. it doesn't always click, either on a contest level or on a me personally level, but there's a lot of stuff, particularly like the last, uh, 10 years or so, where, again, even Telemoveas, which didn't qualify, I thought they were doing something really interesting. [00:10:47] Mike: I think that is in parallel with some of the other countries that we've discussed that have had somewhat similar histories. We'll, we'll get into that piece, but yeah, the, the marching to your own beat may be because of the environment from which they emerged, which we can kind of get into right now. [00:11:05] A Brief History of Portugal's Politics --- [00:11:05] Mike: When Portugal entered Eurovision in 1964, uh, it was not the best of times in Portugal, the country has had a tumultuous political history, it used to be, under a monarchy, in 1908, King Carlos I was assassinated, and a couple years later, the monarchy just completely collapsed. During that time, there's unrest all over Europe, but there was a real struggle to sustain any sort of parliamentary democracy. I think, one squib that I read said that there were like 45 governments in a 15 year Period. like, [00:11:40] Ben: That is, that is a high government to year ratio. [00:11:43] Mike: yes. And, would not be the last time that you had that sort of, rapid turnover of things just not coming together. in 1926, there was a coup d'etat against the First Republic, which led to the establishment of the Dictatura Nacional, the National Dictatorship. and in 1933, Antonio de Oliveira Salazar, who was the president of the Council of Ministers, under the Ditatura Nacional, ended up assuming power and established the Estado Novo, which would become the governing regime, With a regime, it's going to be repressive. very tight censorship on media. This particular regime was opposed to Communism, Socialism, Unions, Anarchism, Liberalism, and Anti Colonialism. the way that I saw this described in a number of places was that it's like a different flavor of fascism when you compare it to like Hitler or Mussolini, which, um, neat, like, I don't know what to like how to process that. [00:12:48] Ben: yeah, it's kind of weird that this, yeah, I'm it's just playing all the hits, just, it's just that list of all the beliefs. [00:12:53] Mike: Yeah, because it's not that it's not as bad as those guys. It's like, no, it's just like a different kind of bad. So, Yeah. Cool. Like, there was emphasis on the anti communism piece of it, , and that Portugal was just not interested in, like, what Stalin was doing over in the U. S. S. R., which created a bit of a foundation of the U. S. not really being a fan of, you know, Portugal being under a dictatorship, but there wasn't any sort of intervention that happened. I'm guessing because if the US was going to try to install something, it would be what was already existing in Portugal. So, kind of bleak, Portugal was a founding member of NATO and the United Nations and kind of participated as a global citizen even though, like, within the country it was, not a great situation for the citizens of that country. during World War Portugal was officially neutral and did do business with both sides of the war. So, covering all of their bases. where that comes into play is the anti colonialism piece of, why this regime was so opposed to to that idea. Portugal still had a lot of overseas colonies and holdings. after World War II, most of the colonizers, so like UK, France, Netherlands, they were relinquishing the control of their former territories. Portugal wasn't doing that. Portugal, viewed all of their, holdings as kind of exclaves and just part of, like, Portugal's land border, even if there is ocean dividing the two. This ran counter to what the rest of the world was doing at that point, but, , Portugal was holding firm on that and that led to a lot of military conflicts in those areas where the holdings exist. Specifically, Angola, Guinea Bissau, and Mozambique, the African holdings, really led to kind of a forever war. the war reached full swing like 1961 and went on for 13, 14 years. And it was part of Portugal just wanting to maintain their hold on these territories. within Portugal proper, you have, the typical earmarks of fascism, like secret police, people being disappeared, political prisoners, and, like, I mean, that was kind of the vibe in 1970s with a lot of the other regimes that we've been talking about, like Greece and Albania and Chile. One of the vignettes in the book that I was bragging about reading earlier, Carnation Revolution by Alex Fernandez, there was a vignette in there about dissidents from Portugal pulled off one of the first successful hijackings, which is also like very 1970s. And yeah, like they hijacked a plane and used it to distribute leaflets before returning to Morocco to, avoid the consequences of the hijacking. But it was just like, wow, this is just such a foreign concept, in the year 2024. Eurovision, the debut there was about 30 years into Salazar's rule, and about three years into this kind of forever war situation that Portugal was in. there had been a handful of attempted coups, throughout the years, and the country was often described as the last dictatorship in Europe. Getting to the 1974 contest, Salazar is no longer in power. He had a brain hemorrhage in 1968, and the leader of Estado Novo became Marcelo Caetano. At this point, Portugal was the poorest country in Europe. I mean, part of that is because you're 13 years into a forever war, a war that was not at all popular, and even with conscription, they were running out of soldiers to deploy especially with a multi front effort. To try to solve this conscription problem, the government devised a scheme where former soldiers could re enlist, they could take a two semester intensive course, sort of like a coding boot camp type thing, and get fast tracked to officer positions. at the same time, soldiers who were possibly on their fifth deployment and, have not gone through this accelerated course, like the typical path was about a four year curriculum that they would need to go through, they did not have any sort of option for fast track. So you have these people who have not been trained. in it, for who knows how long, and suddenly they are becoming officers and leapfrogging past the people who have, like, even if it's not for a cause that you believe in, like, they're still putting in the work. this was the catalyst for soldiers to instigate what was Basically a labor action? Like, the core argument of this wasn't about human rights or liberty. Like, that was in the background. But, the real driving force behind, what the soldiers were complaining about was that, yeah, these are really bad working conditions. This officership scheme was not popular and the active soldiers, and other military brass were able to push back on the program and got their way. They actually managed to win this negotiation, which demonstrated that they now have leverage. They now have power to get things done. It's like, all right, well, what else is not great about our current situation? [00:18:25] April 24, 1974 --- [00:18:25] Mike: so the plan, for the 1974 coup was to take over major installations throughout Portugal and establish a unified front against the overall government. not necessarily with violence, but really more kind of the vibe of Dude, dude, come on, you know, I'm right. Yeah. And yeah, just kind of unifying all of the people working at these various installations. [00:18:54] Ben: I'm sit and like, I know that this is a fascist regime, and the eventual takeover, so I'm trying to not just like, cheer union, union, but, but also, heck yeah, unions. [00:19:03] Mike: Exactly. Yeah. And that, that was the thing, like if there was word of union, they would have been crushed, but it's like, Oh no, it's just kind of like, come on, you know, you know, right. Yeah. You know, you know, and it's just like, not a lot of nodding and talking with your hands. they had to do this as a coordinated effort. and the way that the plan was executed, they enlisted the help of a local DJ to play the song a du bois do a do. the 1974 Eurovision entry at 10. 55 p. m. on April 24th. Now, the song itself wasn't the signal that, the operation was a go. It was the intro to the song that was going to be the signal to start making a move. And the DJ specifically was going to say, It's 5 to 11, finish the intro and then play the song. This was actually one of the more, humorous anecdotes in the story there was so much discussion about what song to use as the, the signal. Because it needed to be something that, would not be out of place to play on the radio. Eurovision happened on April 6th, so this would have been two to three weeks after that. So yeah, the song was popular in Portugal, like, there was a reason why it was the Portuguese entry, so yeah, of course you're gonna play that on the radio. It didn't have any sort of, uh, Overt political messaging behind it. It was something that the government was going to allow, particularly because it was their Eurovision entry. Uh, some of the other songs that were proposed were, so on the nose that, like, the nose was going to have to step to the side to be like, hey, wait a minute, what's going on here? Because, yeah, like, it, it, it, I think we both come from backgrounds just like making playlists and it's like, okay, this playlist has a theme, but like, I kind of want to hint at the theme, but not be like so overt about it with like the song titles or whatever. So, this one was a good, good. Intro to the operation because they needed to have a second song, to, also work as a signal because the radio station that played the first song could only reach Lisbon audiences but they needed a second signal for people outside of Lisbon to hear and start making moves on those installations. That second song was, Grandola via Morena by José Alfonso, and this one is, much more on the nose, it opens with, 45 seconds of somebody, marching on gravel and getting closer, and, uh, it's a song from 1971, it's about a community coming together, the structure of the song is, The singer will sing a solo, and then it gets repeated back as a chorus. pulling together the message of like what is going on here. And this whole strategy was actually based on Pinochet's The White Book on the Change of Government in Chile, uh, which specifically advised using pop hits of the day to coordinate. And using that as a way of transmitting messages to, distant resources. the signals were played, move in on various facilities and find the person who was in charge of the facility and just kind of have conversations with them, about being like, okay, you know, You know what we're doing here. You know, the labor conditions are not great. Are you with us? And I'm just like, yeah, yeah. And just kind of like, just, I don't know, like, it feels like there was just like some resigned sighing, just being like, yeah, yeah, okay, I'm here with you. And there was one anecdote from the book where one of the facilities had an armory. once the facility was taken over, people were using that to, pull out weapons and stuff, in case they needed them. And the guard was still asking people to, sign out each individual one. And I think part of that was just kind of, like, to provide, plausible deniability in case, like, Things did not go well and just be like, well, I was still doing my job and like all of that. But the attention to the bureaucracy of it. I don't know. I, I, I was just kind of tickled by that because it's [00:23:39] Ben: I know that we're all rising up against the government but that's no reason for sloppiness on the, on the sign out records. [00:23:45] Mike: exactly. inventories must be maintained. So [00:23:48] Ben: We need to know who has [00:23:50] Mike: yes, yes. But, most of the weapons were not needed. the facilities. Each one was very quick to just be like, yeah, I'm with you. let's keep this going. And by lunchtime on April 25th, most of the target facilities were acquired and the regime was It's just about ready to acquiesce to what the military was asking for. Antonio Spinola, who was the general that was leading this coup, he would end up being one of the first leaders of the new government, he had that level of influence and was just, like, able to go into the leadership and just be like, hey. This is, this is what we're doing. They're just like, all right, sure. And, [00:24:29] Ben: Mhm. Mhm. [00:24:30] Mike: it was surprisingly straightforward. Now, the Carnation Revolution is often described as a bloodless coup. but that is not the case. the secret police, the P. I. D. E., were not surrendering as quickly as the government was. And, At one point they started firing in two crowds of protestors and people celebrating the revolution. four people did end up getting killed. Uh, Fernando c Steria, Jose Jay Barnett, Fernando Barro, do Sores and Jose Gui are arruda. there is a plaque in Lisbon commemorating. These people. but overall, it was a relatively peaceful revolution. term Carnation Revolution comes from a restaurant that was planning on celebrating its anniversary, that day. But, The revolution was kind of put, was kind of like a snow day in a way. , uh, like, no, no, nobody was coming into the restaurant that day. but they had a whole bunch of carnations that they were planning on giving out to customers. So, when the staff was sent home, one of the staff members just started giving out the carnations to everybody that she saw on the street. And yeah, so it just kind of ended up spreading that way. by the end of the day, the military coup was successful and Portugal was in transition, so it was like, pretty much less than 24 hours that the government toppled, which is kind of wild to think [00:25:55] Ben: Yeah, just wow. [00:25:56] Mike: It was also, wild reading about it, it is a challenging read, just because this is something that had so many different moving parts, like, both leading up to it and the actual execution, of the revolution. but it also was, like, talking about, like, areas all over Portugal, like, this wasn't completely within Lisbon. The ultimate part of the revolution was in Lisbon, and, It wasn't until they started mentioning locations that were near where the Eurovision village was in 2018, where it's like, Oh, right, the world's sexiest water closet. I remember where that was and it was able to draw the mental map. in my head. I don't believe it was the sexiest water closet in 1974, but there is the sign there that is marketing it that way. And it was referenced in the book. He's like, Oh, I know exactly what street you're talking about now. But, having that mental map in mind, and then like thinking of tanks coming down the street. the various streets and navigating some of those streets because it's like it's very hilly it's also very curvy my brain was just like kind of breaking in a way we're just like wow i i cannot imagine what that would be like to just like look out your window and there's a tank just rolling down and not for parade purposes but like for its intended use like yeah [00:27:10] April 26, 1974 --- April 25th, big deal. [00:27:12] Mike: April 26th, my first note here is Constratka, so what now face? Uh, because yeah, it's just like, I think everybody was kind of surprised that this worked as well as it did. We're just like, oh yeah, we just walked in and be like, um, hi, no, thank you. And it's like, okay. And that was it. going back into Portugal's history of trying to establish governments, it was 19 months of fits and starts trying to establish a new government. General Spinola, he was one of the first leaders. He was out by, I think it was the third government, and that was only about six months into this 19 month period. Like, it was a lot of changeover. and of course, with that level of instability. Fending off additional coups when other generals were not getting their way. and then also the legitimate concern about Soviet style communism being able to embed within the government, communists and socialists were very strong coalitions within the various parties that were forming in the formation of this government. it was possible that US could have intervened. But this was also around the time of the end of Watergate and Nixon's administration. So I'm curious, if that were not happening at the same time, how things may have played out differently with the, US maybe having a little bit heavier of a hand in, deciding what government would be, installed, shall we say. But, [00:28:43] Ben: Yeah. [00:28:45] Mike: And then there was also just the economic instability of the 1970s, Portugal being, you know, The poorest country in Europe, so already unstable, like there was a lot of potential for things to really go haywire. One of the aspects that did resolve was that Portugal did start withdrawing from its various colonies. it's not necessarily great for the areas in Africa that were now engaged in civil war, but Portugal is no longer an instigator Within those environments, but yeah, it's still not setting up Angola, Mozambique, or Guinea Bissau for success. [00:29:21] Ben: Yeah. [00:29:22] Mike: Bringing it back to Eurovision, Portugal had a very interesting POV when it came to the contest. their 1975 entry was just like, Hey, look at what we did! Just being very, like, celebratory about the revolution there. Or, that maybe the best message for the general Eurovision audience, like, oh, yeah, like, peace, love, happiness, whatever, but, just being very, like, I don't know, braggy, I guess, I don't know, but, yeah, and just a lot of their entries, for the next decade or so. I have it described here as mostly blog entries about the haps in this new era in a language that many find difficult to parse. So it's, uh, yeah, just not not not great for a general audience. but as things were kind of ebbing and flowing as the government was trying to get its footing There was conflict, necessarily violent conflict, but disagreement on how to proceed. And things got kind of dicey in the mid 80s when one of their entries kind of shifted to a vibe of, Hey, wasn't that bad, remember those days? I'm just like, oh no, no, Portugal, [00:30:29] Ben: well, again, like, the previous decade of entries, they're just basically like that one Christmas letter you get from a family of just like, hey, here's what we've been doing the last year, just like, uh oh. Oh, we're gonna take Facebook away from y'all. [00:30:41] Mike: Yes. Yes. So, a lot of ups and downs and see like maybe their participation in Eurovision being like, Hey, we just want to be part of the party. we're just trying to figure stuff out, which is fine. Now that they've figured out how to navigate the financial crises and seem to be in a much more stable position that may be contributing to their more recent success at the contest but it took a while to get there like I mean it's A lot of work, and it's work that's not done or is possibly being undone. Like, Portugal is also experiencing a rise of the far right the way that most governments are experiencing it. [00:31:19] Ben: places are right now. [00:31:20] Mike: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that was one of the things that made, this particular read, again, the Carnation Revolution by Alex Fernandez. It's not the easiest read. I mean, particularly if you're in a time crunch, like the, this book came out in mid June. So I only had like two weeks to get this all processed. And, it really is getting into the history of the country and like the intricacies of the problems that were leading to needing a revolution and all of the moving parts a lot of initialisms, a lot of, you know, Acronyms and yeah, just a lot of stuff to try to keep track of. And if you're not familiar with Portugal or Portuguese history, like It's not that it's context free, it's just, if you're coming to this book, expecting there to be, like, a whole, big Eurovision connection? No, because that's not really the story. Like, it just happened to be a Eurovision song. Like, it could have just as easily been, oh, well, this is a song that was done by a Capricorn. Like, it is that level of, of connection. [00:32:18] Ben: something that's like, not the most obvious, hello, let's do a coup, again, [00:32:22] Mike: hmm. Mm hmm. [00:32:23] Ben: let's rise up against the military dictatorship, song, [00:32:27] Mike: Yeah, and I mean, it just as easily could have been like their 1964 entry or a song by the same artist or something like that. it was a coincidence. It wasn't like an actual instigating factor. But, if Eurovision is your entry point, it'll be a more challenging read, I think, then if you're approaching it from like, Oh, I want to learn more about Portuguese history. And I think it is really, Helpful in that way because it's a little bit of an info dump, but that's partly because there aren't a lot of unified resources on this particular subject. again, if you're dealing with a fascist regime, there's not going to be a paper trail for people who are against that regime. [00:33:06] Ben: yeah, they're generally not very good about retaining records on that. [00:33:09] Mike: yeah, like this, this is really one of the few books out there that is consolidating all of this information. So it is a great resource that way. And so and since it's like the first to do that, it is dense. you have time to sit with it, I think it is a good read. I'll have links to a few articles, from The Guardian that were talking about the, Carnation Revolution, because they did a lot of features, to acknowledge the 50th anniversary. and that includes one article by, Alex Fernandez, which I think is a good summary of the book, and particularly the day of, April 25th. if you enjoy that article, the book, extrapolates on, what he's mentioning in the article to the point where it's like, I was reading the article, I did not see who the author was, and was like, Oh, wow, this is like a really good CliffsNotes version of this book. I wonder who, Oh, it's written by the same guy. Okay. And there was also a really good conversation on, the Europeans podcast, with Alex Fernandez about the book when the book came out. So I'll have a link to that in the show notes as well. so that was the Carnation Revolution. And, as I said, very tangential to Eurovision, but, a really fascinating piece of recent history [00:34:24] Ben: Yeah. Well, and again, we have talked several times. The 1974 contest like sort of gets overshadowed by ABBA, but there's so many different other stories that are just as interesting happening underneath the surface. [00:34:37] Mike: absolutely. and the parallels that this had with, uh, like Albania's story emerging out of a decades long Yeah. oppressive regime and like how both countries have very strong music traditions and are both countries that we describe as marching to their own drum. I think there's something there. I'm not entirely sure how to frame that lens to look at them, but it's, [00:35:01] Ben: Yeah, when I talk about Eurovision with people and my interest in Eurovision with people I often stress that yes, there's the visual spectacle of everything, but it's also seeing how the various folk music traditions of these countries, Mixes, or in some cases, like, is just oil and water with pop trends. And, that's definitely true with Albania, that's definitely true with, Portugal, just, like, sometimes we like this, and other times, like, we are going to continue sending this template of song until you guys like it. [00:35:31] Mike: Absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's, it's one of those things I think it was when I was, Doing the research on Greece last year, where, one of the tools of a fascist regime is to have, music festivals and, really nationalistic style, [00:35:47] Ben: Mm hmm. [00:35:48] Mike: of art, and so that is where you're going to have, like, the heavy influence on folk traditions and the music traditions of this country, and, seeing how that is now being, uh, Transformed in, post regime. Venues. Like it, it, yeah, like, I, I think, I think it's fascinating, so, [00:36:09] Ben: Yes. [00:36:10] Mike: I'm not actually interested in despotism or anything like that, but it's like, oh yeah, like the coups of the 1970s. It's like, yeah, I sort of know that, but it keeps coming up like this is the fourth time and it's like, oh, but there's these neat music things that have come out of it. Greece has a very particular point of view at the contest. Portugal, Albania, very particular point of view. I still think about when we talked about Vinha Del Mar and how that came out of Chile's, regime [00:36:37] Ben: Yeah, like, there is, you know, there's just a really interesting thread of music and nationalism. That could not easily be separated. [00:36:45] Mike: have a strong feeling this will not be the last time that we explore a topic like this. [00:36:49] Ben: Nope. [00:36:52] Mike: That's going to do it for this episode of the Eurowhat. Thanks for listening. The Eurowhat podcast is hosted by Mike McComb, that's me, and Ben Smith. [00:37:02] Ben: That's me. If you'd like to help support the show and access a ton of bonus content, head over to patreon. com slash eurowhat. [00:37:08] Mike: Free access to our full archive of more than 200 episodes going all the way back to when Portugal hosted the 2018 contest can be found on our website at Eurowhat. com [00:37:18] Ben: Next time on the Eurowhat, Ellie Chalkley joins us to help out with a gut rehab for Denmark.