237 Missing the 'Mark === [00:00:00] Ellie: I've had so much fun thinking about Danish music, listening to Danish music, and, talking about a beloved Danish TV brand that I need to take around the back of the shed. [00:00:26] Ben: Hello, and welcome to the Eurowhat, episode 237, dropping on July 16th, 2024. We are a pair of Americans trying to make sense of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm Ben Smith, and I'm here with my co host, Mike McComb. Hey, Mike! [00:00:40] Mike: Hey, Ben. [00:00:40] Ben: In this episode, we'll be attempting to do a gut rehab for Denmark with our special guest, Hi, Ellie! [00:00:46] Ellie: Hi there! Everything's great here. I'm not Danish, but I'm willing to help out if they're shorthanded. [00:00:51] Mike: Yeah. [00:00:54] Ben: To quote, Hamlet Act 1, Scene 4 at the most inappropriate time, something appears to be rotten in the state of Denmark, with Eurovision in the last few years. [00:01:02] Ellie: And it's not through want of trying! [00:01:04] Welcome, Ellie! --- [00:01:04] Ben: Yeah, they've been trying all the things! but Ellie, it is delightful to have you here. How are you? [00:01:09] Ellie: Life is busy. Um, it's been weird in the Eurovision fandom this year, still making sense of all of that. but, you know, I have had the chance to explore the outer reaches of the Danish music scene, preparing for this podcast. And, we're doing great. [00:01:27] Mike: Excellent. So, whenever we have a new guest on the show, we'd love to find out how did you get introduced to Eurovision? [00:01:33] Ellie: The usual sort of British Saturday evening, um, osmotic process, really. It's late nights, it's snacks, it's, hearing music you've never heard before, and I think late nights, snacks, and new music, I'm like, still in that today. [00:01:50] Mike: I love that combination of things. So, so yeah, I guess in, in terms of Denmark, like, do you consider yourself a Denmark fan? do you have strong opinions one way or the other of like how they present themselves at Eurovision? [00:02:06] Ellie: Well, coming from the UK, Denmark is like the sort of dark mirror of, uh, the UK, selection process, in that they've got quite a lot of the things that we say that the UK selection should have, it's done them no good. [00:02:22] Denmark at Eurovision Recently --- [00:02:22] Ben: in like, the last decade or so, it's been particularly rough for them, as I was kind of dipping into this, because I was like, well, the last time we were in Malmo in 2013, we very quickly went across the river over to Copenhagen, uh, but since they hosted in 2014, they have only qualified three times all in a row. So 2017, they sent Anja Nielsen, 2018, they sent Rasmussen, 2019, they sent Leonora. A couple of those were, like, left of the board, Anya Nielsen was 20th, and then 2020 happened, we'll never know how Ben and Tan would have done, if that would have been the right vibe or not, Fierro Gflama were 11th in 2021, it wasn't particularly close, it wasn't like they were a couple points away from making it, even though the crowd was very sad, In recent years, Reddy, Riley, and Saba have also been 13th, 14th, and 12th, so nowhere really towards getting into the big show. they have the longest current, non qualification streaks of nations actively participating, Mike and I were looking at were like, Who could we do a gut rehab on? Who hasn't made it for a while? We had Latvia, and Georgia, sorta, like, earmarked, but both of them made it. [00:03:27] Mike: So, looking at Denmark's current process, they've been using Dance Melody Grand Prix exclusively since they joined the contest in 1957. And they have used different versions of DMGP, sometimes with a semi final, sometimes it's just the eight or nine song final. They went back to the single night format in 2009, but with various changes in the process, which, uh, I am sure we will get into, because there was one point in my research where I screamed, what? And I had to read through it like three or four times to actually understand what the process was. [00:04:03] Ellie: The main thing I want to say about DMGP is, um, that it's, it's sort of, it's the paradox of national selections, because it's got what we always say we want, which is a strong musical identity. But, the strong musical identity is of unthreatening competence. You can instantly tell the oral signature of Dansk Melodi Grand Prix. Like, you can pick it out of the lineup even if all the songs are in English. And that's the problem. [00:04:35] Mike: I would agree with that, but it's also kind of surprising because I think one of the things that we discovered this year was how much juries love competence and will score songs with a high level of competence, even if it's not necessarily the poppiest of pop songs, and maybe that that That is one of the things that's getting lost with having all Televote semifinals the last couple of years, is without that jury influence, that's really not going to help Denmark on the scoreboard to actually get to where the jury may actually reward them. Ha [00:05:10] Ellie: can keep the competence, but they have to add something else. [00:05:14] Ben: how else would you describe Denmark's recent Eurovision presence with what they've been sending? they've been trying stuff! Like, it's been different every year, but [00:05:24] Ellie: The post Covid trifecta. Really, really shows them trying stuff and sort of being punished for trying. Ready. Completely forgot they existed. A lot of other things were going on that year and it wasn't until I was going back through the DMGP playlist I was like, oh, Ready, this show, oh, I see, we were all doing our Olivia Rodrigo's that year and uh, things were, things were kind of fine. Uh, Feared and Flama, they were punished for trying. Riley. Like, I know we got far down the iceberg on how old Riley was, [00:06:03] Mike: Yeah, [00:06:08] Ellie: staged, like, overstaged, but, nearly work. [00:06:12] Ben: That was one I was in the arena for. And on the other hand, everything, everything was great in the arena. Cause like, that was just like, we loved everything. that one Too much staging, and then like, all the vocal processing on top. Just got real crispy. [00:06:26] Ellie: Yeah, I mean, we've never had an auto tuned rapper at Eurovision, and it's, like, I think it wouldn't go down well if somebody tried it. Looking at you, San Remo! [00:06:35] Dansk Melodi Grand Prix (DMGP) Problems --- [00:06:35] Mike: and also, Riley was not as convoluted of a process to, be selected in 2023, but I think that is where my biggest hang up is right now with Denmark's process. Like, they're trying all of these different combinations of, like, jury televote split and, I think they are stronger when they focus more on the Televote, but then they try to partition the Televote in every possible way that you can slice that data. Like in 2002, 2022, this was the one that caused me much strife in my [00:07:08] Ben: yeah, no, I just, that was, I just remember watching, watching DMGP and not understanding, why are there so many numbers? [00:07:15] Mike: so it was all public vote, they allowed pre voting, and the three songs that got the most pre votes got, 10 percent of the points available. Then the three songs that got the most SMS votes got 10 12 percent of the points available. And then the songs that got the most votes in the app got 78 percent of points available. So those two other categories did not matter one bit. Cause like whichever the top three were from the app, that's what was going to advance. But yeah, there's just all of these numbers and it's all presented as percentages. Like you never see any sort of raw data. [00:07:52] Ellie: The problem is, though, right, They're attempting to perfect their pie recipe, but all they're doing is varying the ratio of turnips to parsnips, like, the ingredients are wrong, it doesn't matter in what way you rank them, you have to put the better songs in at the start of the process. And I think it means taking a wrecking ball to their beloved DMGP format. [00:08:20] Ben: When you look at the, the Superfinal, the last couple years, we're getting like, everybody's kinda at about 33%, and like one has slightly more points, one has slightly less, so just like a collective, I guess? Which is, is not the response you want to have for the, the entry you're sending to represent your nation at Eurovision. [00:08:39] Ellie: When you've got the Finns tearing each other apart to vote for Kari, you have to inspire some level of passion, [00:08:46] Ben: Every time I tried to, like, write down, okay, what do I think Denmark is doing well? I would immediately have, like, a parenthetical afterwards that sort of cancelled out the nice thing. They're good at churning out, like, 80s inflected pop, but, like, it tends to be straight out of 1986 without any new influences. Cause, like, there are other acts at Eurovision that have sent 80s influenced stuff, and it's done well in some cases, but they're doing new stuff with it. they're also very good at picking the top option of what they have to choose from, but the options themselves aren't great. [00:09:18] Ellie: mhm. I'm, I'm just gonna do it. I'm gonna, uh, basically cancel DMGP, or at least they can have DMGP in its current form, but it tells you as much about the Danish music scene as, like, the acts that they get to go on Sunday night results show on, strictly. Like, it is aimed at such a broad audience attempting not to challenge or offend anyone who's watching on a Saturday night. so, it's aiming so hard at unity and, generality that is hitting nothing. So, immediately we're banning boy bands, we're banning Tweepop, we're banning Man Ballads, we are banning Linear Deb, we're banning Chief One, If we have to do some sort of subterfuge where the people of Denmark think that DMGP is going on as normal and the alternative radio show, radio station is running a jolly little song contest in the first quarter of the year, then I'm willing to, I'm willing to lie to the Danish people. [00:10:28] Ben: I mean, like, the other thing I was like, is like, if you look at what has qualified for them recently, you have things that at least have a sense of Danish identity to them, like you have Rasmussen, sort of being a Viking, for three minutes. You have Leonora on, like, a gigantic chair, just because nice chairs are, like, one of the things I associate with Denmark. Contemporary furniture. My suggestion was also, okay, we can still call it DMGP, but you guys pick the artist in advance, and we're just picking the song. It's just like, how much money does Alphabeat want to reunite? Like, or at least, like, Steena Bromson, if, if, like, the various Andreses over there don't want to do it. [00:11:01] Ellie: Do you know, that, you, the, the brand does have to go through a period of metamorphosis and rehabilitation and I think when, uh, going back up to Finland, when [00:11:13] Ben: I was gonna say, it's like, UMK had a few years where it's like, No, we're picking the artists, you guys pick which of these three songs. [00:11:19] Ellie: like, mixed results, but by the time they were ready for the, beautiful new seven song, all killer, no filler format, by the time that was ready to emerge the brand was sufficiently, sort of, clear of previous baggage. [00:11:36] Denmark Gut Rehab --- [00:11:36] Ben: Exactly. Going back to, Ben and Tan, like, just thinking about what is happening On the radio, at least stateside right now, I don't know if it has crossed the pond, but like, we have like the Noah Khans and the, like, there is a reprise of the various sort of Stomp, Clap, Hey, Lumineers sort of a deal, that Yes was very much in the same [00:11:55] Ellie: So I, I wrote down a sort of, skeleton outline of what I would be looking to cast DMGP 2025 with, and yes, I've got one of those, Heartwarming Acoustic Up Tempo. it doesn't have to be Ben Tan, and I would understand after what happened. But, you know, something like that. And Denmark is not short of that kind of thing. Do you want to know the other five on my, uh, skeleton DMGP list? [00:12:20] Ben: Absolutely. [00:12:22] Ellie: I am having one Anthemic Indie. [00:12:25] Ben: Okay, yes. [00:12:26] Ellie: I think that would work. obviously it didn't work for Wild Youth because it wasn't Indie enough, it wasn't Anthemic enough and the jumpsuit, but I think there is a room, there is room for Anthemic Indie at Eurovision. Post Swiftian Country Pop, by which I mean a girl is singing, because we're still banning the man ballads. And then there are a lot of electropop, the competent electropop, but it's got to have an edge. there are plenty of, extremely good Faroese and Danish, dark electropop people who might be convincible to at least put a song in, like when Karen Park did, Norsk Melodi Grand Prix. Even if they're not fronting it, it's the Edgy, dark sonics that you want, rather than the shiny, polished, linear deb of it all. what else do I want? Oh yeah, I want a big ballad with a bit of drum and bass to it. Because there is room for vocal showcase ballads in an all televote semi final. add a little bit of D& B to stop it just being a straightforward stand in a spotlight and belt. Make it a little bit more contemporary. And then, something weird from the pharaohs. [00:13:40] Ben: Continue to, to, to bring the Pharaoh Islands in Just in general? [00:13:44] Ellie: You know, in football, the pharaohs compete on their Unmerits, and are doing quite well. Like, Per Capita, the football skill is incredible. And also, it's another one of those places like Iceland where Per Capita, the music skill, is absolutely incredible. Scrolling through Bandcamp and Spotify, uh, just going, Oh look, there's another incredible, experimental Faroese artist. Oh well, add them to the stack! In fact, who was it I was listening to today? Today, I was listening to Brimheim. Heard of Brimheim? [00:14:21] Ben: I have not, [00:14:22] Mike: not, no. [00:14:23] Ellie: Uh, you'll enjoy some Brimheim. Very, like, wry, unusual, self deprecating, sort of noir pop. Her latest album sleeve features her with two big old snails on her back. [00:14:36] Ben: Denmark should not be afraid to get weird at the contest because like it works. [00:14:40] Ellie: everybody's got weird recently. Like, everybody, we sent everybody's weird little guys last year and It worked. it provided some amount of jollity amidst, like, a very weird vibe backdrop. [00:14:53] Mike: I think what I would like to see from DMGP is having it be more of a platform or stepping stone or like, I don't see what the incentive is for somebody who want to do DMGP. At this point in time, because it doesn't look like it actually gets you anywhere. Like it may get you to Eurovision, but then if you don't make it to the final, You're just hitting a wall there. looking at previous contestants, you don't see anybody returning to try to represent Denmark again. or, their Wikipedia pages just stop at whatever year their entry was. And it's like, well, surely they've done something after this, right? so it just doesn't seem like it is, looking at the cost benefit analysis of doing. Denmark selection. It's like, yeah, yeah, I should probably focus my energy elsewhere if I want to like move forward in the music industry. And I think that should be one of the goals of the broadcaster is to be like, no, this is where musicians should want to go to improve their career and not just have it be a gig. [00:15:54] Ellie: Yeah, there's literally no Danish Marcus Riva. [00:15:57] Mike: Exactly. Yes. [00:15:59] Ellie: I didn't realize that was something I was missing in my life, but, oooh, [00:16:02] Ben: yeah. Like what, what is Denmark's? Marcus? Reva. ' I mean, this year we did have Baim comeback after like a decade, but it was like, not right now. Not right now. Not this [00:16:11] Mike: What about Marcus representing Denmark? [00:16:16] Ellie: weirder things have happened. [00:16:18] Mike: Yeah. [00:16:18] Ellie: I, wanted to tell you about a style of, Danish music that I found out about today. it's called Dukkaduk, and it is your, standard Well, it's not your standard, really. It is extremely aggressive, uh, bass and synth led, sort of techno adjacent Danish language, party music. Orally, quite challenging, uh, but I'm just glad that they have, A genre? Dakadak? [00:16:47] Mike: and that should absolutely be represented in the 2025 Danish contest. I don't know necessarily Eurovision. I've not heard of this genre before, but I'm very curious. It's like, oh, that's checking a lot of boxes. Mm [00:17:02] Ben: but I mean, thinking about, Jost Klein bringing in Gabber this year, a song in, in your actual national language, reflecting some piece of its, musical culture as well, is miles more interesting than just like, getting one of Jimmy Joker's off cuts. [00:17:19] Ellie: from the Dakadak thing I was looking at, there was this song that was just called Boom Boom, and it was very good. I recommend it. It's quite good. Like, there's Oh, quite a lot of the, um, you know the ones that we've been trying to get Germany to sign up for their selection. There's a lot of that kind of thing as well. the sort of quite hipster ish, electro, sort of low key funny, but not comedy music. Like I was listening to Putsch Maxi by Hjelp. Sounds fun. The Fooled Effect boys that were in a couple of years ago with Rave mit der Hörde dringend uh, are back with a song called Paper Filter Smoker Chips, which, let's have that. I mean, it's probably, it's already released, so, but I'm sure they can come up with more. [00:18:08] Mike: It is kind of funny that we bring up Germany because I feel like Denmark and Germany have a number of the same problems, [00:18:14] Ellie: The Schleswig Holstein problem. [00:18:17] Mike: Germany seems to have maybe figured something, like, I want to see what happens next year, but this, this year, they did well, and maybe, maybe they've figured something out, and maybe Denmark can peek over onto Germany's paper and [00:18:30] Ellie: I don't think Den, I don't think Denmark get to solve it the same way that Germany did, because Germany went, okay, right, we are going just straight. We're aiming this at the jury, even though it didn't necessarily turn out that way, and we're just gonna have a guy with a nice voice sing the hell out of a song. And I don't think the way that DMGP works, they can get A guy just singing the hell out of a nice song through DMGP and through the semi finals. I think it, I think it has to be something else. Which is why I'm saying abrasive Danish techno. [00:19:08] Mike: Yes. [00:19:11] Ben: I do, I do deeply appreciate the, the NoBoyBand rule. Just thinking, just cause like looking over like what they sent in the last decade, just being like, Okay, so anti social media didn't work. And then you sent Lighthouse X the next year. I'm [00:19:28] Ellie: in Stockholm, which was my first EuroClub adventure, I was having just like this beautiful, feeling where I was just like, oh, I love Eurovision. I love everybody here. This is incredible. And then I went to try and do some Eurovision karaoke and Lighthouse X were hogging the mic for longer than I could wait to sing and, um, yeah. Held a grudge ever since. [00:19:56] Mike: I think that's the other like weird thing about Denmark is they are the country that I've encountered most in the wild, just in terms of like background music. And yeah, like Lighthouse X, I have heard that play in a drugstore here, in Chicago. [00:20:13] Ellie: That's, that's bad though. That's bad. [00:20:17] Mike: well, no, that's the thing. I mean, it's just like, like they are. Excellent at producing this like background ambient music, but nothing that is going to stick in your head or stand out as an individual work, like it's just going to be like of a piece with all of the other beige that's surrounding it. I look forward to Denmark producing something that is not beige. I don't know if that is a genre switch or what. Yeah, [00:20:41] Ben: about this year's performance was beige. Just quite literally just sand. [00:20:45] Ellie: Poor Saba. [00:20:46] Ben: Mm hmm. She did a very good job and just that song was just Not the one [00:20:52] Ellie: No, they're just, there was no there, there. It was another one for your drugstore in 18 months in between Eliza and what's that other one that always comes up? Um, I'm Sitting Down Here by Lena Watsoname. [00:21:08] Mike: but that's the thing. I mean, it's like just the way that you're describing that. It's like, Oh yeah, who's it's what's it's like, you know, the one. And it's just like, [00:21:15] Ben: You know her. [00:21:16] Mike: there's nothing, there is nothing to latch onto. And yeah, I feel really stuck with this one in terms of like what sort of actionable advice it could be just like just choose differently. But that it seems that doesn't feel as actionable as other options. [00:21:33] Ellie: The Choosing Differently is simply not going to happen while it's programmed as just like a pleasant variety show. It's, not programmed with the idea of competition. In it, it just really strongly reminds me of the terrible UK BBC You Decides, where you listen to the songs and you really try to make it all work. You, like, you really want one of them to work, and I'm afraid there's no there there. [00:22:00] Mike: Yeah. [00:22:00] Ben: All right. Do we have anything else on any other thoughts on this topic? [00:22:05] Ellie: I, like, it does feel very bad to say your beloved brand is bad, start again, but, like, I'm afraid that Unless the dice come up with triple 24s when you're only rolling d20s. Like, we're talking in the realms of miracles, I think. [00:22:24] Ben: Mhm. It's [00:22:26] Ellie: year. [00:22:27] Mike: Yeah. Hopefully they are having some sort of conversation to be like, okay, what can we do differently? But I don't get the sense that that sort of conversation is happening. Like it, it feels a little bit like the situation where Ireland was finding itself was like, we really need something to happen. And I don't get that same sense of drive from Denmark of like, Oh, we really want this. It's like, yeah, yeah, that's fine either way. [00:22:51] Ellie: Yeah, where is Denmark's Bambi, who is going to see the platform for what it is and go, Right, I'm gonna do something. Cause it's The most attention that you can get, if you're not on a major label, if you don't have access to, like, standard promotional networks, it is a huge jumpstart to the amount of attention that you can get on you, the amount of international attention that you can get on you, and somebody Whether working with the Danish broadcaster is a pain or not, or whether there's some sort of restrictions on who they can recruit from, somebody needs to see the power of the platform and go, right, I'm having a go. Somebody with something we can hold on to. [00:23:38] Ben: Ellie, thank you for joining us for this discussion. This was great. [00:23:42] Ellie: Thank you. I've had so much fun thinking about Danish music, listening to Danish music, and, uh, talking about a beloved Danish TV brand that I need to take around the back of the shed. [00:23:54] Ben: Yes. [00:23:58] Mike: And that's the intro clip settled? Awesome. Is there anything that you would like to plug or point our listeners to? [00:24:11] Ellie: I'm the designer of the infamous Every Eurovision Result Ever tea towel, and various other Eurovision bits infographic bits and bobs, including, um, a new print of all of the champions of UEFA Leagues since the turn of the millennium, which has got flags on it. That's all available at totallyflagulous. com. the poster version of every Eurovision result ever is currently up to date with 2024 results. Uh, but we are waiting on the tea towel because I kind of donated all of the 2024 profits to Medical Aid for Palestine. So there was no money to buy tea towels. on Blue Sky, but I wouldn't bother. [00:24:55] Mike: Yeah, that seems to be the general consensus about Blue Sky, but I like it. [00:24:59] Ben: As I was gonna say, I like it. All my friends are here. [00:25:01] Ellie: I like it. It's so chill. It is the psychoactive version. It's the CBD of social media. And it's been lovely to join you. [00:25:14] Ben: All right. Well, that's going to do it for this episode of Eurowhat. Thanks for listening. The Eurowhat Podcast is hosted by Ben Smith, that's me, and Mike McComb. [00:25:24] Mike: That's me! If you'd like to help support the show and access a ton of bonus content, head on over to Patreon. com slash Eurowhat. [00:25:32] Ben: Free access to our full archive of more than 200 episodes going all the way back to the 2018 contest can be found on our website, eurowhat. com. [00:25:40] Mike: Next time on the Eurowhat, we dig into the EBU Future Development Report and examine the potential host cities for next year's Eurovision. [00:25:51] Ben: Denmark. Contemporary furniture