Jon Ballard:
Welcome to the Leave Your Mark podcast. In this episode, we'll explore the art and science of leaving a lasting impression on flexible packaging, brought to you by Domino, the pioneer in printing solutions. This show takes you on a journey through the evolution of marking and coding on film.
Hey, good afternoon everyone. I'm here with Dave Featherston and Jon Hall from Domino. Dave, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do at Domino.

Dave Featherston:
Hi, Jon. I'm a Product Marketing Manager with Domino. I cover three of our technologies, a couple of which we're going to talk about here today. I've been with Domino for a little over six years, and I've been in the packaging industry for over 30.

Jon Ballard:
Great. Jon, tell us a little bit about your background and how long you've been with Domino.

Jon Hall:
Yes. My name is Jon Hall. I've been with Domino about 20 years, and I'm responsible for the laser product lines. I'm the Product Marketing Manager for North America laser products.

Jon Ballard:
Great. So you guys have obviously been around flexible packaging and printing on film for a long time. Just tell me a little bit about the history, and what the prevailing technologies have been in the past, and what's popular these days.

Dave Featherston:
Maybe I can jump in on the first part of that, since printing with lasers on film is relatively new. But I actually put a little bit of thought into this and, honestly, when you go back to the old days of printing on film, a lot of that was done with hot stamp. So, it's either a foil or a colored hot stamp. You would stamp on a lot code, an expiration date. A little bit different than what we're talking about here, because the hot stamp could also work with the harder materials and such, but it was also done on some of the film as well.
So every time you had to change something over, you literally had to change out. If you wanted to change the date, you had to change the little type set out. So just super, super prone to errors, quality issues, et cetera. We've certainly come a long way. I would say, probably about 25-ish years ago, or so, there started to be a strong migration to TTO, which is thermal transfer overprint. It uses a ribbon. It's similar to a hot stamp, but more of a wizzywig type setup where you program in what you want your code to look like, et cetera, and out comes the image, the code, the human-readable, whatever it might be, on the film. Then from there, I'll pop it over to Jon because I think he can talk a bit more about some of the more recent innovations, especially with regards to laser on film.

Jon Hall:
Thanks, Dave. Laser, as Dave said, is a more recent entry into film coding applications. I'd say in the last five years, laser applications have really matured. Typically, because companies and customers have been using lasers in other applications, and the ideas of having code permanence, and no consumables, and some of the high speed, the pre-print quality, all those things were things that customers were interested in seeing if they could apply these same attributes to film coding.
It wasn't a straight line initiative to get it done because much of the laser coding that is done is done with ablation, which is actually removing material. Now we're working with thin films. That's the last thing you want to do is remove material. So there had to be a development of a new laser coding process, one in which you create a color change rather than remove material to create contrast. So what we've done with new technologies and new wavelengths is to establish that color change rather than ablation approach.

Jon Ballard:
Great. It sounds like to me the three main technologies right now are the traditional TTO, the 3T thermal inkjet, and the UV laser. If I'm looking at this as a consumer, and I need a mark on my product, what are the differences between the three? Can you guys dive into just breaking down the benefits and maybe drawbacks of each one?

Dave Featherston:
Yeah. I can start since, again, I have a couple of the older technologies here. Like I said, the TTO, it's been around for over 20 years now. Very well for flexible packaging, it basically only is for flexible packaging. But putting anything from a barcode, to a simple lot code, expiration date, et cetera. So, anything you might see with the potato chip bag that says $1.99, such and such, an expiration date, that's generally done with TTO.
There's been a little bit of interest in the marketplace, and it's something that we've been trying to drive a little bit as well, that is the 3T that you mentioned. What that is, that is a thermal inkjet cartridge. When you think of a thermal inkjet cartridge, you can think of something very similar to the cartridge you might have in your desktop printer at home. So the cartridge goes out, you put a new one in. The nice thing with that is, you're getting a new print engine, you're getting basically ready to go every time out of the gate with that.
So it can offer some advantages over TTO with regards to price, especially when it comes down... Well, capital cost, because you're actually mounting inside of an existing TTO bracket. But even more so in your ongoing consumable costs because, for a simple one line, two line lot code expiration date, you actually save quite a bit of money over TTO. So that's those two technologies. I'll turn it over to Jon to talk about laser.

Jon Hall:
Thanks, Dave. With laser, it's a different process. You have to qualify films, you have to verify because, to get laser coding, the film has to be compatible. It has to absorb the laser energy. So that's one of the first things of any laser project, is that you would send film into the sample lab and then it would grade it's receptiveness to the laser energy. Once the material is deemed to be receptive to the laser energy, then there's a ultraviolet wavelength, which is typically what is used. What it does is, it creates a color chain by breaking a molecular bond in the color molecule, leaving the film intact, but giving you that color change. That's why it's ideal for film. Previous lasers, CO2 lasers were not applicable, and that's why a new wavelength, a new laser process needed to be developed.

Jon Ballard:
Is there line speed requirements? What differentiates the one from the other, and how do you decide? If you're in a customer, talking to them, which product is right for them? Is there key questions that you ask? How do you guys approach that?

Jon Hall:
For me, it's going to be that fundamental process. If the material is receptive, then lasers are extremely fast. Because with lasers, there's two parts to the equation. It's how fast we can apply the energy, and the other half, just as important, is how readily available or absorptive is that material. So if there's a good marriage there of absorptivity, then we can run really quickly.

Jon Ballard:
So laser is clearly one of the better ones for high speed production lines. Is there higher costs between a lot of them? How do you break that down?

Jon Hall:
Yeah, lasers, by far, is going to be the highest acquisition cost, but probably the lowest cost in use. So those things will play against each other. The laser's going to have code permanence. It's just a characteristic of laser coding, that it's permanent. There's not a consumable that could be taken off. Also the laser integration, lasers are typically larger than the other printing technologies.

Jon Ballard:
What's the quality like between the three technologies? Is one more readable or legible than the other?

Dave Featherston:
I'll start with mine. I think both TTO and the thermal inkjet, they're both going to give you a very dark black opaque code. For TTO, we have a variety of different ribbons that we can use on it, actually different colors as well. But again, generally black is used for lot code, expiration dates, barcodes, those things. Very similar as far as how dark they're going to be between the two. One, the thermal inkjet would use a solvent-based ink to achieve that.

Jon Hall:
There's a level of consistency that you get with a TTO or a TIJ product because, as David said, you're applying that black material to create contrast. With laser, again, because it's energy being absorbed, on a dark substrate you may get a light code. On a light substrate, you're probably going to get a dark code. So it can give you really nice coding, but it's not as consistent as always having a dark contrast. You may get variation across colors, and that could be fine as long as the film is receptive. But in terms of consistency in seeing the same exact contrast on every product, that's certainly in the realm of the TTO and the TIJ.

Jon Ballard:
Dave, you mentioned the 3T thermal inkjet, and that's not as common of a technology. Is that's something new with Domino? Can you tell us a little bit more about that, how that works as compared to just traditional TTO?

Dave Featherston:
Yeah. The technology, in and of itself, is not new to the industry, nor new to Domino. We've had a line of thermal inkjet printers for 20 plus years now. What has been new is a different approach to it, in that... Again, I'll go back to that comment of your ink cartridge at home. Our ink cartridges, or any ink cartridges for that matter, in the most part, for thermal inkjet are very similar to that size. So then you have a print head that actually mounts in, which is a little bit bigger than that because it needs to obviously hold the cartridge, and have your connections, et cetera, to it.
What we've done is come up with a mounting bracket that would then mount that inside of what's called a window bracket, which is traditionally what is used to hold a TTO printer. Think of it as an elongated long table turned sideways. So you've got, more or less, four legs on it, and two different sides to it. That can be mounted to a variety of different pieces of equipment. The two you probably most see it integrated with is a vertical form fill seal and the horizontal form fill seal.
So what we would do in this solution is, you actually take out the existing TTO printer. You would have a controller that would be a little bit separate from the print head itself. It could be mounted anywhere in the production line area. Then you would actually have one, or even up to two print heads in that existing TTO bracket, each providing a half inch of print height. Again, with films that we're talking about here, you're obviously talking about solvent-based inks. Generally black, but you do have a variety of colors as well.
Relatively, I haven't seen too many other folks using this approach out there. I did actually have a beer with a colleague a few weeks ago and he said, actually, he had dabbled in a little bit. But we're excited about it. Domino, as a company, we're based in the UK. They've had some pretty good success with it over there, so we're pretty excited to show it at PACK EXPO, and see what people think.

Jon Ballard:
That's a good point. You guys are going to be out at PACK EXPO next week. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are showcasing all three of these technologies in your booth?

Dave Featherston:
Yeah. They actually will all be on the same, what's called an, unwind/rewind table. So we'll be printing on a roll of film with all three technologies. So we can show you all three at once, or happy to break down and dive in deeper to any of the three.

Jon Ballard:
Another question, guys. Sustainability is a big topic for a lot of companies these days. Is one of these technologies, or all three of these technologies... How do they address the sustainability challenges, and can they help a company work towards the sustainability goals?

Jon Hall:
Multilayer films, which are highly functional and do a lot of great things for us, they're typically not recyclable. The process to separate those film layers, it's complex, it's expensive. Therefore, it typically doesn't get done. So there's growing pressure to replace multilayer films with monolayer films, which are easier to recycle. So, that's one of the trends that we're seeing. Again, another reason that the UV laser was developed, because of its ability to print on mono films. So, that's one thing.
The other thing is, with the laser technology, there's not a consumable that you're adding to the product. So you're not adding to anything that's going to go into the waist stream. It's laser energy, it's not a VOC. It's nothing that's added for dry time, or things. So, in general, laser is a green technology for those reasons.

Dave Featherston:
Just for the other two, for the TTO and the 3T, the thermal link jet, unfortunately, I wouldn't say they're environmentally unfriendly, but you do have a... For example, as far as waste goes, you'd have an empty cartridge with TIJ. That's going to hold true for anybody out there using that technology. For TTO, you would have an empty plastic core for ribbons as well. Some folks have done some recycling programs and things on that, but you don't see anything real whole scale.
As far as the material goes, Jon nailed it when you start thinking about, at least nowadays at the moment, most potato chip bags, things like that, those are multilayer laminate materials. So, in most cases, not recyclable. But when we do get to a point where you have some monolayer films that can provide the barrier properties that certain products might need, I certainly wholeheartedly agree with Jon, laser's the way to go. You don't have anything. Whereas, with TTO or TIJ, the ribbons themselves are made up of a mix of either wax or resin. Then on the ink for the TIJ, that is a solvent-based ink.

Jon Ballard:
Jon, tell me a little bit about maybe some of the aspects of waste that go along with coding and marking on film that people don't really think about.

Jon Hall:
That's a great question, and certainly something that was a surprise to me, the amount of waste, the amount of product that actually has to be thrown away when there are missing or unreadable codes. Because typically, if you think about it, coding is done when the film is flat and in positive control. Once you wrap that film around a product, it's neither flat or in positive control, so there's really a challenge in reworking this product, which is typically why the product gets thrown away. It's just not worth the time, the effort, the expense of reworking a product. So, waste numbers can get really high if codes aren't in place properly.

Jon Ballard:
So are you saying that, with a laser coder, you can actually code products after there's product that's been put in the packaging? Is that what you're trying to say?

Jon Hall:
Ideally, we want to code exactly as TTO and the TIJ folks are coding when it's flat and in positive control. It makes it more challenging for a laser because you figure, a laser, you're at a certain focal length with the lens. A product that's not flat, it's going to have sections of the package that will be in focus and out of focus, and that certainly could degrade your code.

Jon Ballard:
But, that would be the same with traditional TTO and thermal inkjet as well, right?

Jon Hall:
I think we all need that flat positive control of the film to get our best coding.

Dave Featherston:
Yeah, with TTO, it is a 100% on that. With thermal inkjet, well, in the application that we're doing here, in a TTO bracket, that would be the case, yes. So, flat film.

Jon Ballard:
Guys, you're going to be out at PACK EXPO, you're going to be at Booth 1614 in the Central Hall next week, and you guys will both be there, correct?

Dave Featherston:
Yes, we both will. So, certainly welcome anybody to stop by. I believe the show is Monday and Tuesday, 9:00 to 5:00, and then Wednesday, 9:00 to 3:00.

Jon Ballard:
I heard a rumor that you guys had a free Drink and Learn, or drink and sip, I forget what it's called.

Dave Featherston:
Well, yeah. Drink and Learn, yes. Yeah.

Jon Ballard:
What time and where?

Dave Featherston:
We will be doing it at that same booth. It's 1614, I believe. It will be from 3:30 to 5:30. So come by, stop and talk to one of the experts at the booth, see some equipment, have a drink. You might even learn something, but we're not going to force you to.

Jon Ballard:
Great. That is Monday afternoon, correct?

Dave Featherston:
Correct. 3:30 to 5:30, yes.

Jon Ballard:
Great. Well, we will see you guys in Las Vegas, and thank you so much for the time. If guys have questions on this technology, and printing on film, I encourage you to reach out to Jon and Dave. They're both going to be listed on the show notes here, and they'd be happy to help you figure out what's right for you. They can get samples run. Correct, Dave? At the lab there?

Dave Featherston:
Absolutely, yes.

Jon Ballard:
Great. Well have a safe trip, fellas, and we will see you in Vegas.

Dave Featherston:
Thanks, Jon.

Jon Hall:
Thanks Jon.

Jon Ballard:
Yep. Bye, everybody.

Dave Featherston:
Bye now.

Zach Baierl:
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Leave Your Mark: the Coding and Marking podcast sponsored by Domino. We hope you enjoyed our insightful discussion and gained valuable knowledge to enhance your operations. Remember, for more information on revolutionizing your coding and marking solutions, visit codingandmarkingpodcast.com.