Daniel (00:10) How does this work? How do we do this show? I have forgotten everything. For the listeners, it's been like, I don't know, five minutes, but for us it's been months. I missed you, Dave. Dave (00:17) You Five weeks at least, yeah. Yeah, me too. I missed you. thank you. You too. It's been a while. I'm hoping I get myself into gear properly with the edits and stuff, which shouldn't take me too long when I get into it, but we've got a few episodes in backlog. And so I'm hoping by the time people are actually listening or watching the show, what you will have noticed is that we've caught up. Daniel (00:27) Fantastic to see you again. Dave (00:48) and hopefully you've listened to the other episodes as well. but here we are, hopefully a lot more real time almost. ⁓ so yeah, good to be back. Daniel (00:56) Right. to be back. This is the first episode I think that I'm recording in Hamburg. So greetings from the north. So there might be some echo in the room because there's not enough stuff here yet, especially while all my pictures are not on the walls. I didn't put the foam stuff on the wall again because that kind of destroyed the wall in the old apartment when I tried to get it off. So apologies for any echo. It's going to be Dave (01:06) Yes! Yes, you have moved up north mate. Yep. Well... Daniel (01:26) going to get better in a while. But yeah, this is my new office. It's very nice. I have a standing desk now so I can actually walk around, which is going to annoy YouTube listeners to know and I'm sure, but I don't know, kind of got to move a little bit. So I've decided to, like, going to, I bought this desk because I was like, I was like taking apart the old desk that I kind of built myself. And then I was like, Dave (01:29) Still sounding good to me, Daniel. Yep. Yes. Yep, that's fair. Daniel (01:54) Ugh, I dread putting this back together. It's wobbly and kind of like the wood is not very comfortable to move your hand on top. I'm like, or I could just buy it. Like how much? Like it's a standing or it's a desk. How much would it cost? $10? So I have a FlexiSpot desk, which I didn't really care for the moving up and down part, but like they basically cost the same as a regular desk. Dave (02:05) Yeah. Yep. Yep. Daniel (02:25) And it's nice. They sent me the wrong, they sent me, they sent me the wrong tabletop. I paid for bamboo, which was the cheapest one. And they instead sent me a way more expensive one. What is it called? What's that? Maple. Yeah. I got maple, which is very pretty. Dave (02:31) ⁓ Nice. cool. Really cool. Yeah. Daniel (02:47) And so I've decided now whenever I have a meeting of some sorts, which this kind of is, this is our stand up now, I'm going to stand up. But when I'm actually working in concentration mode, then I'm going to just move it to sitting because I had a standing desk ages ago and I try to do it all the time and it's just like, doesn't work for me. like the meeting thing kind of does. It's nice. Dave (02:54) Mm-hmm. Yep. Nice. Yeah. Well, that's cool. That's cool. Yeah. I've got a standing desk and I'm supposed to move through different modes during the day. And then of course the hyper focus kicks in and I just forget. So maybe I'll do that. I'll pick a meeting today that's like, yeah, that's my standing meeting and try and get a bit more, a bit more use out of it. Daniel (03:21) Mm-hmm. If you're just gonna release your inhibitions, feel the rain on your skin because no one else is gonna feel it for you. Dave (03:39) I was hoping you were gonna sing, but... Daniel (03:41) Yeah, no, but this is is nice. This is nice. This is in fact waiting for review a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle. Join your scintillating hosts to hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. I'm Daniel, Enrichment Time Haver, and I'm here with Dave, the newest employee on the severed floor. Join us while waiting for review. Dave (04:04) That's the question. If you've got my any or my outie today, we, uh, we do not know. Uh, yeah. Daniel (04:10) they say Audi. They always say Audi with this American accent. It sounds like the car brand. Your Audi likes to go on walks in the countryside. I drive a VW, Dave (04:14) the car. Yeah. Yep. I've not caught up with the second season of that so I really must. Daniel (04:31) Yeah, same. I'm like halfway through the second season and now Alex has started watching it, so we're starting at season one, episode one again. Dave (04:33) Yeah. Yes, yeah, knowing where it's going to go. No, I have been watching The Last of Us because that's on season two now and I really enjoy that. Daniel (04:41) Which is cool, actually. Yeah, I've noticed that it's out and I haven't watched it because I've been on the road for ages now. It's not renovating because I'm ovating the office and the apartment. Dave (04:53) Mm-hmm. I've, I've done similar in my time in the last last few weeks. Actually this, this office has been, not quite gutted out and rebooted, but certainly rejig to be, be much more useful. and that was a process because honestly, Daniel, I had so much junk in here and so much disorganization and it's a small room, but What I've done now is I've organized everything well. I've got rid of anything that doesn't need to be in here and suddenly gained a little more space back. It's funny that. and, ⁓ I, I've sorted things in a way where I've actually got these little tubs where I was little boxes that I've put, all my many cables because as many nerds, I had a, you know, box or drawer full of Daniel (05:39) Yeah, I can imagine. Dave (05:56) random cables. So I brought order to the chaos. I've used a label maker. And it's yeah, I love it. And it's it's already paying back. Like, you know, one of my kids wanted a specific, he wanted a USB cable that was long so he could use it with a game controller on his PC. And so, oh, dad, do you have this cable? And I was like, do I? Daniel (06:03) best invention. Dave (06:25) You know, because I'd already sorted all of this and yeah, it's nice. I've actually got space in here to play with music. So I've been playing with a drum machine and a synthesizer recently. And I also have a little desk set up underneath the TV where I can play with my many bits of video equipment and my apps. Daniel (06:28) Hahaha Dave (06:50) so this room is now much more functional and Daniel (06:52) I that. It's the, it's the, the loft. It's the, artist's room. It's the atelier. Dave (07:00) Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. So yeah, I'll link a video that I posted to Instagram in the show notes because that kind of shows what I've got going on for the video gear. yeah, so refreshed, renewed after a bit of time out, renovated. Do you know, Daniel, I didn't code. Daniel (07:13) Mm-hmm. renovated. Dave (07:27) And the last month at all, didn't work on my apps. actually downed tools on everything because that's what I needed to do. And that has actually been probably the best thing I could have done because it's put a bit of space between some of the thoughts and actually kind of gridlock that I was starting to fill with where to take things and what I wanted to do. Daniel (07:28) ⁓ wow. Mm-hmm. Dave (07:52) And now that I'm kind of picking things back up again, I'm making much more considered thoughts. I'm starting to look and go, okay, so what do I want with this? Where do I want this to be? What am I actually trying to achieve here? And do you know, I'm actually getting quite enthusiastic again. Like I'd reached a stage where I was like, know, this is a lot. Do I do go VJ Pro? Do I kind of push? Daniel (08:11) How nice. Dave (08:17) an Android app, do I try and build this? Do I learn Kotlin multi-platform? I mean, we've talked about all of this on the show. And it was, you know, a lot of overload really. And it doesn't feel like that now. Like, you know, I've got a couple of updates to do on the iOS app that exists already. And that's good. That'll keep users happy. And I want to talk about it in a little bit, but I think I've got... bit of a master plan brewing for the cross-platform stuff that I really want to do. So yeah, the master plan indeed. ⁓ Daniel (08:51) Okay. The master plan. Rewrite everything in PHP. Dave (08:58) No. Yeah. Daniel (09:00) No. Okay. Yeah. Do you want to talk about it or, or, it's, not the first thing we wanted to talk about, but we can totally, we can totally do like if you're already into it. Dave (09:04) if I talk about it, won't, it's not the first thing, but, but no, I'm going to bury the lead on this one, Daniel. I'm going to bury the lead on this one. So tell me about you, cause I've got a note here that says you went to OMR. Daniel (09:16) Right, have you by any chance heard about what that means? ⁓ Dave (09:20) No. Orchestral maneuvers in the... don't know. Yeah, I don't. Daniel (09:27) OMR is a German language publication and expo slash festival. And OMR stands for Online Marketing Rockstars. Dave (09:35) Dang. Daniel (09:36) And so apparently each year here in Hamburg, they have a festival, the OMR festival, which has 70,000 attendants, each of whom pay between five and 800 bucks for the honor of attending. And they, it is wild. It's basically an expo where like every Dave (09:43) Okay. time. Yeah. Daniel (09:56) Everything that has anything to do with advertising in any remote manner has a booth. And the booths of course, like they're ad people, right? they try to like, try to have like, like one more gimmick, one more gimmick. Like the TikTok booth was huge and incredibly bright, brightly lit and colored. There was an Adobe booth where you could Dave (10:13) Mm. Daniel (10:19) like prompt an AI image to be generated and then printed onto leather for you to take with you. Dave (10:27) What? Daniel (10:29) There were multiple dance recitals by very cigarette companies. was Paramount Studios is promoting some sort of new TV show about, I don't know what it's about, they were very, very muscular buff dudes in Roman getup, with basically like topless and with these cool... Dave (10:34) Of course. Daniel (10:49) coats hanging down the back of their necks. It's like marching in Roman, Roman fashion to go to the festival to promote that TV show. Dave (10:51) You Daniel (10:56) Ryan Reynolds was on stage talking about something. don't know. kind of, I kind of missed it. Various like sports personalities were there. Like a lot of footballers, like really like famous ones that I don't know the names of because I'm a horrible person. Also Mikka Häkkinen, which is really cool. I don't even need to explain that he's a very famous Finnish F1 driver. Dave (11:02) Yeah. Yep. Daniel (11:17) It was wild. Every, like almost every booth was about using AI to do this and using AI to do that. Everything was AI first. was very, God, it was very like draining. Most of the people who were there were of course like working in the advertisement industry and like also trying to be very extroverted and very like, it's like very colorful and bright. Dave (11:25) Yep. full on. Daniel (11:39) which I usually like, at the same time, very much felt, a lot of people felt very, they had a facade on it, feels like. Like people were moving around in a way that was very calculated to look careless. that, ⁓ it was a bit much, but it was still good fun. We did not pay an entry fee in fact, because Lisa, Dave (11:47) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Daniel (12:04) was kindly invited by a SEO company to be influencer on there after festival party. And so we were both there on influencer business. So I'm going to actually post a post naming the company later to fulfill my, like, I don't have an obligation or anything, but I kind of, that's kind of neat, six saving a few hundred bucks. And then also there was an open bar. Dave (12:15) Okay. Yeah. Yeah, you should just link it. It's so good. Yeah. Daniel (12:33) And I'm actually considering using the tool because it's an SEO tool and I kind of want to improve the SEO of our website a bit more. Dave (12:33) Yep. Okay. Well if you do I'm going to be interested to know how it works out. Daniel (12:47) Yeah. I have like a tabs with like three different SEO tools open right now, like trying to compare them because one of them was like 27 bucks. The other one is like 150. And then there's one that is there's like 250. And I'm like, what is the difference? It seems like the difference. It seems like the difference is that the more you pay, the more you get like actionable stuff. Like I talked to a few people about this. Like the difference between. Dave (13:02) Mmm, that's quite a wide range. Daniel (13:16) something that just says like, here's the data, you decide what to do next. And tools that try to interpret the data for you that say like, okay, here's the data, but also this is what it means. This is the lowest hanging fruit. This is probably the area where you can move, like wherever your actions have the most, the biggest outcomes, stuff like that. Dave (13:26) Mm-hmm. Daniel (13:38) which is also a philosophy that I'm trying to fulfill with telemetry deck. yeah, let's see which one we end up with. Also, they had a Formula One team there, which was very nice, and they had simulators. Dave (13:43) Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me know. Ooh, how many ghosts did you have? Daniel (13:59) One, the line was really, really long. But I had a go and I kind of like, just when I squeezed into the bucket seat and was like so tight, was like, well, like full motion simulator. It's like the ones who actually move backwards and forwards and left and right. They like force feedback, wheels, of course, but they also kind of moved. And it's always very neat. But also the seats were probably not lifelike, but also just like for my very juicy Dave (14:10) Yeah. Daniel (14:23) behind they were like almost impossible to get into. But just as I squeeze in, the whole thing crashes. I didn't do it as well. So they spent about like five minutes trying to reboot everything. And then the guy says, okay, so usually people get three laps, but you just get two because there are so many people waiting. And I'm like, my goodness. Dave (14:30) no! It crashed and they didn't even give you an extra go. That's not on. Daniel (14:46) And it puts me on the track and I'm like, okay, I know this track. It's the Suzuka in in Japan. And I'm like, oh, this is a really nice track. At least I know the layout-ish, right? So I don't need to spend like five laps actually learning the track. And so I'm like, okay, I'm going to do my best. Just like go flat out from the start, like what she's probably not supposed to do, but whatever. I only have two laps. first lap was really, really good, except for I kind of like miscalculated like how the braking works because on actual race cars, the brake is really hard to press. Like you got to put your full force into it, right? And they simulated that. So I was braking as I would like with a normal car, like gently pushing the pedal and the pedal would just not move. after half a second or so, realized I could really like stamp the thing. But by then I... I was already way too deep into the corner. So I lost a second or two there. then, but the rest of the lab was really good. And so I'm like, I'm going to prepare for the second at the second. That's going to get even, I can, I can do it. can feel the concentration. Like people were actually watching and were like commenting and I'm like, this is going to be good. And then I had a fantastic lap that I binned at the very last chicane. Dave (15:52) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Daniel (16:03) So only the first lap counted. And with that first lap, I still was very good. was like in the top, I was like the eight fastest of the, or all the, all the people who had raced that day already, which was, which I'm, I'm pretty proud of that. Especially it's like, if you consider, if I met, if I had, if I had had one more go, I probably could have, could have gotten on the, in the top three, which feels really good. Dave (16:05) ⁓ Jason. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, sounds like a cool experience. I don't know how much you love your racing. Daniel (16:29) So yeah, I almost didn't get in line, but then a tiny voice in my head said, come on, you're here have fun. So yeah, I listened to the tiny voice and I had fun. Dave (16:37) You did. Nice. That sounds like quite the experience going to IMR. And I hope as well, like, obviously this is you getting out there in the world for telemetry deck too. did it have much, you know, sort of, did you make any leads? Did it kind of bring stuff back or was it more just a case of good to get out there and be spreading the brand and actually get it involved or. Daniel (17:05) More of the latter, I want to say. like that is, that is the thing. Like I've been to a few conferences and expos in the last months and in the hope that, oh yeah, let's, let's generate some leads. Let's, let's, let's get the, get, get, get the word out. And it turns out like usually you leave with like a, like just a stack of, of, of cards or LinkedIn invites or whatever, but then they, they almost go nowhere. So, um, Dave (17:28) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Daniel (17:35) Recently, Lisa and I had our strategy summit 2025. What we decided is we're not going to pin our hopes to conferences and expos anymore, at least for the short term. We got the tickets for free here, but most of these, you pay hundreds of euros for entry fee, of course, then you got to get there, you got to sleep somewhere. So, and you spend a lot of time and so it doesn't work right now. So we've decided we're not going to book any more conferences, but we're going to go to the ones that we already booked. that means, like we're not like, we're not like throwing away the tickets that we already bought. But then for this thing, we considered buying tickets, but we hadn't bought any tickets yet, but Lisa had booked her train to Hamburg. in the week, so last week we were like, I was like, Lisa, Either you're canceling your train tickets or you can just like come to Hamburg. We're not going to the conference, but we can stand in front of the conference and like make fun of the people there. Or we can just have like do some touristy stuff. Like there's a lot of sites to see in Hamburg and I have seen about 1 % of them. So I could use a sightseeing buddy. And so she does actually come here, but then like, like finds this offer by this company, like to be, to like. Dave (18:33) Mm-hmm Daniel (18:48) come to our open bar and then also get into the festival for free. So we actually went there, but no pressure. then in two weeks, there's another conference, Gitex in Berlin that we already booked. So that also needs to happen. Dave (18:55) Nice. Yeah. ⁓ Daniel (19:04) But after that, think we don't have anything. yeah, no, there's a developer conference that I'm going to, like no more like business expos and stuff like that. Instead, I'm gonna try and concentrate my considerable attention on getting, just like improving, improving like social media, like that. And just like trying to improve the websites. Because if people actually like, Even like big customers, like they're really big ones. Like they work mostly when they come to us, but, and they do come to us because we are actually very compelling. The thing is just, need to know about us. So if I can just spread the word by just, being present on social media, but by, by having a good website that is very searchable and also like, I guess indexable by the, by the, AI overlords, then, then I think that's a good strategy. Other thing is I did actually meet a few cool people. I did actually meet a few people who were less into, yeah, let's scrape all the data and dump it into an AI and more about like, Hey, let's try to be conscious of what data we're collecting and stuff like that. we're like, that's like, was, I found an AI first email service and I'm actually considering switching to them. If I do, I'm going to, I'm going to tell you how it is as in like email delivery service. Dave (19:55) I do too. OK, yeah. Daniel (20:26) And I'm not super happy with the one we're using right now, so I might have to switch. Dave (20:32) Definitely want to hear about that because I'm not attached to the one I'm using so, cause that I use in my mailing list. ⁓ yeah. Daniel (20:37) Yeah. Yeah. I talked to someone who has, to like, to the owner of a company who makes a thing where you upload all your marketing materials in a raw state, and then you can kind of use API calls to customize it for individual things. ⁓ You don't really know what it means yet, but it sounds kind of neat. Dave (21:00) Okay. Yeah, yeah, because you could actually use that for bespoking landing pages or, you know, trying to figure the right word. Different funnel routes that people might go through when looking things up, right? Daniel (21:08) and so I gotta. Yeah, that or just like, you know, like share picks and stuff like that. Like you have your background and your logo, but you want a different message for the share pick that says like, I don't know. And so actually they are looking at Telemetrynec as an analytics provider and I'm looking at them as like, yeah, maybe we can put our marketing stuff there and have it bit more organized because it's just like in a folder and the cloud right now. And Dave (21:29) Yeah. Yep. Yeah. That sounds like. Daniel (21:45) Yeah, stuff like that. I also met people from another privacy first analytics service, eTracker. They mostly do web analytics. I was like, I'm not considering you my enemies. You're kind of cool people. But they were kind of reluctant to talk to me. So I kind of left them alone after saying hi. Dave (21:52) Okay. More. That's a shame. But yeah. Daniel (22:10) Yeah. But I mean, they're here to generate new customers. Like they don't, they don't gain anything by talking to me. Dave (22:15) Yeah. And I was going to say it's not, really a great use of time, I guess, from that perspective, but no. I mean, it's good to see other folks in the space because it's, it's actually validating for, you know, the privacy first sort of space that you're, you're in. So, you know, I never think there's a, I do have competition with my apps and the app store. But it's like, it doesn't matter. People like to use different tools or try different Daniel (22:20) All right. Yeah. Totally. Dave (22:44) things out. What really matters is, that, there's enough people looking at that sort of thing to be interested in anybody's app. So. Daniel (22:51) Right. Exactly. That's what everyone tells me that has their app Sherlocked by Apple as well. Like they usually don't hate it as much because it's actually, yeah, it just like shines the spotlight. So people think about like, okay, this is a thing. How can I do the thing even better? And then they find the bespoke solution. Dave (22:59) Hmm. Yeah. That's it. That's it. Because, know, as you were saying before with the SEO options, right? You've got small, medium, large, like 27 bucks all the way through to hundreds. that's a big range and people are going to pick based on very different requirements at different ends of that range. you know, that's to me, that's, that's what I think. we should be thinking about with these things is actually being part of a market and where you're in that market. Because otherwise, you know, you've got you've got an app and you've got a few users and that's kind of it. you know, but Daniel, I am going to I'm going to unbury the lead. think I want to talk to you about some of my stuff. OK, so. Daniel (23:56) Please, please ⁓ show me your lead. Dave (24:01) I've had a lot of time to sort of reflect in the last month and I've been, I've actually been working with a life coach, which I would never have thought of doing up until recently. and, part of what we've been doing is exploring sort of personal values and, and, know, what, what, what is important to you. And it's led me down a route where I've been reflecting a little bit on, on what I've been doing with my VJ app. Daniel (24:11) nice. Dave (24:26) my interactions with the visuals community, the stuff that actually got me there in the first place. and you know, for me that goes all the way back through to roots in early two thousands when I was doing shows and performing and, it was the scene that was at that time. So there's a bit of nostalgia wrapped into all of it for me too. but the point is said this before, but one of the values that I have for Govj and what I do with my apps is I like to make these things accessible for everybody. Right? So I can put that app in front of, you know, a child, a pensioner, know, like whoever, and they should be able to play with video art, mixed video within a few minutes. Right? It shouldn't be a big complicated thing for them. And almost anybody can use the app. It takes a bit of doing to sort of just understand what your app is actually in front of you. But it's not some Bees and Tine route with lots and lots of inner knowledge that you have to do. You just load videos and press the buttons and you can mix. Yeah. That's how I pronounce that road. I could be getting it wrong. I mainly only see it written. Yeah. Daniel (25:31) So that's how you pronounce that word. That's kind of word that you only ever see written. I was always wondering. Dave (25:44) Yep. So yeah, so with all of this there's a value there for me of making it accessible to people. This is connected to the strand of thought about exploring putting the app on Android. It's connected for me to opening it up to different platforms because that makes it accessible to everybody. So there you go. There's my motivation there. Not just like, I want to enter new markets and make more money. is actually I'm getting people ask me, do you have a version for Android? The other. linchpin in all of this is as I've had time to reflect on that nostalgia I mentioned before, I really want to have a stab at recreating some of the hardware that got me into all of this or versions of my own versions of that was really cool back then. Companies were playing with ideas around little boxes that were video synthesizers. You could load images inside of them and then they would do things to the beat and you could manipulate it all in real time. There were these boxes with knobs and dials and you know, for me, it was the thing that pulled me into a lot of this. Like that's cool. I can connect these all up with a mixer and have lots of fun. And they stopped making them because of various reasons, right? The market is small for a start, especially compared to doing stuff in audio. But I kind of don't care about that. I kind of just want to make some cool shit that's fun. So the route for that for me is probably to make things that are based around things like the Raspberry Pi and play with small boards. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to go all the way hard out into building hardware that's got sliders and knobs and things. There's probably other routes I can take with that. thinking all of this through, it ties in with the multi-platform stuff because if I can find an environment that lets me actually build a an engine like the one I've already built in Govj, but rebuild the engine that is flexible, then potentially I can then use that as the backbone for those projects, as the backbone for my apps, as the backbone for being able to then bring it to Android, maybe Windows. Et cetera. Right. And I thought that might be Kotlin multi-platform and compose and skia for the pipeline. But I've had a few blocks. It's not really the tooling. It's not really the platform. It's me. Right. I'm looking at it all. And I'm like, this just feels like I'm switching Xcode and all the grind that I sometimes feel with Apple for somebody else's set of concerns. He's not necessarily looking after the bits that I care about, right? So I'd have to build my pipeline in Skia. I'd have to write SKSL for the shaders or find a way to transpile the stuff I've got, et cetera. And then what happens when that shifts or changes or Google decides not to support Skia anymore or whatever, right? It sort of feels like I'm hitching my wagon to that. And that's felt a bit icky because I'm trying to get away from some of that sort of stuff in these projects, right? I'm not a fan of the way Apple's been going at times. kind of, you know, I want to have apps in the store, but I don't necessarily care about the fact that Apple's going to do its own thing here or there with the technologies and you've got to keep up all the time, right? I do want to be aware of it and I do want to be immersed in what the community is doing. But when I'm building these projects, I just want to play. So all of this to say I've been trying to find a new home for where I build these things. I think I might have found it. I need to do some exploration and I may be wrong and this may be a bad idea, but I'm going to try a few things out for size and we see. Do you know what it is? Do you have any ideas? I think I hinted to you in our conversations before. Daniel (29:28) Drumroll. I think you wrote me a message about C++. Dave (29:43) Yeah, I did. So, huh, I started interrogating stuff with chat GPT and searching and kind of having a bit of a like, what could work? And then I kept thinking, well, know, way back when it would have just been C++, right? To do stuff like this or C or whatever, right? 20 years ago, I was futzing around with a load of these sort of things. All right, what's out there? Long, long, long story as we're already long so far. Drum roll. I've been looking at QT or Qt as it gets pronounced. Have you come across it? Daniel (30:11) You I have, yeah. But I know it mostly as a UI framework for Linux apps. Dave (30:22) Okay, so. Yeah, yeah, so did I. And, you know, I knew there was some controversy with it a few years ago where it was closed source and open source and another company took it over and some people were not happy with that. And that seems to have settled. That's like years ago. And yeah, I know it as the backbone of the UI for KDE, a Linux environment. I'm pretty sure that's that's mainly built in. I need to call it cute. That's what they call it. It is. So yeah, I had a look. It has a setup that would let me do an awful lot of what I've just described to you. So you can build UI and applications that are written in C++ underneath and actually have iOS versions, Android versions, et cetera. Daniel (30:57) It is very cute. Dave (31:22) It'll even support the Raspberry Pi stuff that I'm thinking about. Okay, good starting point. What else? The shader complexity that I talked about before with the other route I was looking at. It's got its own transpiler built in, a layer that if I write things in GLSL, it should in theory compile them out to metal when they're on iOS or Vulkan on Android. So there's a route there. And that's cool. That means I can write these things once and not have to keep rewriting them for every platform. So yeah, I've been putting some thought into it. There's some routes there. It will mean coding in C++ and working probably with Qt's QML that it has for UI. But the fact that it actually seems pretty stable, it's not trying to fight a battle of anything in terms of sort of know, Kotlin, one of the big deals there is that there's Kotlin native versus the Kotlin that is actually backed by Java. And a lot of what the multiplatform tooling achieves is it's bridging and filling in a lot of the functionality there on the native side, as well as making sure it hooks nicely into what's there on iOS, et cetera. I have a luxury in all this. You know, we have a show where we're often talking about making apps in the iOS ecosystem, et cetera. But the luxury I have is I don't actually care about it looking and feeling native anymore. Because a lot of what I build is a control interface with some menus, et cetera, right? My users don't really give a stuff if it's following the latest and greatest thing that Apple's pushing. Daniel (33:11) Can you excess performance though? if it's too cross-platformy, is it still like fluid? Dave (33:15) Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's, that's the thing, right? Because it's building against, it's still building against the, know, C lang support that, Apple has. So the tooling requires you to have X code installed still, if you're provisioning for iOS. and you end up, I think, I've not checked yet, but I think you end up essentially with a static binary and then some wrapper code. to bring it into an iOS app. But then it's also got an awful lot to make it performance in terms of working with the GPU and that side of things, which again is what I care about. That's important for me. So yeah, I'm not sure I'm ready to start coding in C++ again. It's a bit of a leap. But I am exploring the tooling and I'm currently going through their training courses and seeing whether it's some, some way that I'll feel comfortable in or not. Daniel (34:10) All right. I have a question though. it might, I don't know, like I'm asking it in a friendly way, not in a inflammatory way. But what I'm kind of hearing is, yes, I want my VJ filters. I want them to live forever. I want them to be independent of any large software company and I want to build everything myself. Dave (34:12) Mm-hmm. Go for it. Hmm? Yep, yep, yep, yep. Daniel (34:33) Do you accept the fact that then if you start now, you're going to be finished in 10 years? And then by 10 years, you could have rewritten the thing for Android and iOS and, I don't know, Unity Engine. Dave (34:37) I know. I do. yeah, I accept the fact that it's got a long run on it and it actually runs in, in parallel. It has to run in parallel with the existing app. cause I'm not going to take the existing app backwards to a prototype for people. yes, I do. And I accept that I'm going to be hopping between, the Xcode code base and whatever else I'm building on the side, but really at the moment I'm at, can this work? Does it feel fun? if it feels yet. Daniel (35:07) That is, I think, the most important part. Like, it needs to be feel fun for you. Because this is not your job. This is your side gig at most. Dave (35:11) Yeah. Yeah. That's it. This is my side hustle side gig. And actually, again, you know, the taking a step back. I've got a job that I enjoy quite a bit. My day job. And that is keeping the lights on. That is is running my life. And then what I do in this space. really for me is about connecting with an art form that I enjoy. So with that in mind, if it's fun, that will pull me along. If it's not fun, I'll go and do something else. I have to. I can't just keep sort of grinding and stuff. yeah. Daniel (35:51) because you enjoy the VJing on the filters and the visual expression of the art. Dave (35:58) I do. And I enjoy the challenge of making something that works in terms of, because actually, you you've got to consider a lot of stuff for latency, real time, et cetera, et cetera. Like, you know, there's a knack to making something that can actually do this on mobile hardware or constrained hardware, even like the Raspberry Pi. And even on, you know, desktop builds that can run on beefy graphics cards and the rest of it. You still need to consider these things because actually it's really easy to stuff it up. so I enjoy that bit. I enjoy that, that part of the challenge of the space, if you like. so yeah, I think, I think this is me sort of accepting. That's the bit I really want to play in. That's where I got started with iOS development light is, is, is approaching this challenge. And at least for a while, I just want to lean very heavily into that. Daniel (36:26) Right, of course. Dave (36:49) with these projects. So it may be cute. It may not be. There's a few other routes, but at the moment that's the one I'm exploring because I just wasn't having fun in Android Studio in the way that I hoped I would. So. Daniel (37:05) But I mean, then it's really good that you kind of change the course, right? Dave (37:09) Yeah, yeah, like I said, I'm not not prepared to grind at it. Daniel (37:11) And I think like it should not be the main reason, but a tiny reason for choosing Qt Framework is also the name. Dave (37:21) Dude, their website's black and green and they're my favorite colors. And I was just like, ⁓ that's nice. It's like somebody's thought about me. Yeah. But the other thing, the other thing, Daniel is, is honestly, I'm, I'm hopeful that the way it is, is actually, a little better stewarded at the moment than some of the experiences we're getting in other platforms. Daniel (37:26) No. website is black and green. Let me open the website. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dave (37:45) because it seems like the development is actually quite stable and quite considered from what I can take in. And I haven't had that feeling with Apple, right? That's what I'm saying. It sort of feels like they're just gonna do what they wanna do and then you've got a whole bunch of tech debt. And for personal projects, that's very frustrating. Yeah. So, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm gonna go on a false errand, but you know me, I'm gonna try it. Yeah. Daniel (38:15) I mean, do try. Worst case, if everything fails, then at least we have something to talk about. And it's fun, like noodling around with stuff. And also, yeah, get it. The lower level you get, the more work you have, but also the more freedom you kind of have. Dave (38:22) Yep. It's all knowledge. It's all learning. And that's what it's about. Right. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the tooling for the UI stuff as well is quite high level. They've got a design studio that reminds me of storyboards and nibs. There's a language that reads a little bit like SwiftUI, to be honest, in QML with some of the one branch of the UI that you can use. So I'm not sure it's going to feel completely backwards, you know? cause that was my worry. Like some of the other routes, you know, it sort of looked like it did look like going back in time 20 years with development and this, this doesn't quite feel like that. So who knows? I'd have to pay a license, at the point in which I put it, anything into the store. so it's also got to feel like I'm getting my money's worth out of whatever's provided to, but not there yet. And I'll let you know how it goes. Maybe next year I'll be telling you how much of a bad idea it was. Daniel (39:26) I hope the next show won't be as far from today as this show is from last time we recorded. Dave (39:35) No, no, not at all. Let's get back into the swing of it. And we were on a break. Yes. But Daniel, I think we should close the show here, to be honest, unless you have anything, anything else we should talk about. But. ⁓ Daniel (39:39) We were on a break! Or no, but next time, next time I tell you how I increased performance by 700%. But I don't, you need half an hour and like a bit of interest in just the nerdy details of like managing big data. So we're gonna do that next time. Dave (39:58) Oof. Oof. Well, that's a cliffhanger. Mm-hmm. Nice one. Well, let's outro the show Daniel. Daniel (40:17) That's Dave (40:18) You can find me on Instagram. Where my username there. Yeah, thank you. My Instagram account is lightbmaps.com or one word, D-O-T com. So anyway, links in the show notes. But Daniel, how about yourself, mate? Daniel (40:22) I almost called you babe. Please point your hyperspace travel device to daniel at social.telemetrydeck.com in the Fediverse or telemetrydeck.com on the HTTPSS. Dave (40:50) Nice. Daniel (40:51) Fantastic, Dave, have a great day. I'm going to have a great evening now and I'm going to increase performance by another 200 % or so. Dave (40:55) I will do indeed. Nice. Well I really want to find out how you're doing that but yeah Daniel. Nice. Are you just pouring coffee into servers or something? Daniel (41:07) I think I finally cracked it. Yeah, that's like 50 % of the solution. But it has to be test to be espresso beans. Dave (41:17) Awesome. course. Well, take care, Daniel, and lovely to talk to you again and see you next time. Daniel (41:27) Bye.