Daniel (00:01.193)
And we are not only go, but we're live. Hey Dave, nice to see you again.

Dave (00:05.934)
Hey Daniel, how's it going?

Daniel (00:08.698)
Ugh, let's not talk about the world.

Dave (00:11.31)
We're not doing that on this show. Let's keep going.

Daniel (00:14.433)
We're talking about the word other than current events. I'm good because I did lots of cool stuff today in coding land, which is just a nice land where I sometimes can go. And it's really nice because stuff generally works. And if it doesn't, then you can just fix it if given enough time and energy. But before we do the...

Dave (00:20.27)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (00:26.798)
coding learn.

Dave (00:38.67)
given enough time.

Daniel (00:44.077)
Before we do that, we should talk about what the show is called. Because hey, welcome to a show called Waiting for Review. And it's a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle. Join your scintillating hosts, scintillating hosts, my God, to hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. I'm Daniel, chief procrastinator and lead anti-fascist at Telemetry Deck, and I'm talking to...

Dave (00:50.382)
wow.

Daniel (01:12.461)
top display owner and interface appreciator, Dave. Join us while waiting for a review.

Dave (01:21.934)
Thank you, Daniel. Yeah.

Daniel (01:22.381)
And Dave, you recently like kind of booped into me with an idea. Like you wrote a message to me that said, Dana, what do you think about renaming the podcast? And I wasn't really surprised because waiting for review is a name that is very closely related to like Apple or iOS development even. like any development very closely in the Apple ecosystem. And we're both in that ecosystem, but

Dave (01:30.743)
I did.

Dave (01:35.682)
Yeah, I did.

Daniel (01:54.999)
We're kind of in a higher orbit, right? Where like my main business is I'm writing a, like I'm working on analytics and most of our customers are in the Apple ecosystem. But like my job myself is mostly writing front end JavaScript and like backend server stuff. And then I sometimes work on the SDK, but luckily I also have like an incredibly capable freelancer for that as well now. So.

I'm not as close to the Apple ecosystem as I used to be. And you're kind of the same, right? I mean, you're kind of gearing up to reach escape velocity to stay with the orbital metaphor because you want to go multi-platform. You want to explore what it's like to write stuff in Kotlin or I think it was Kotlin, right? Flutter?

Dave (02:43.554)
whatever is going to work. You can't learn and compose. Flutter was in there at one point, but it's looking more like a multi-platform and compose multi-platform for me. Yeah. That's a good topic. And it's one that I've been, like I said, I've been mulling for a while. We had that conversation maybe three or four weeks ago now. And on the one hand, I'm loathe to change.

Daniel (02:53.421)
All right.

Dave (03:12.376)
too much like the show has been around for so long since 2017. I've got the domain name. I'm quite attached to, you know, we've got our thing down. Yeah. We have social media accounts, all of that and stuff. And it's a name that people have come to know. On the other hand, yes, it is incredibly App Store iOS dev specific and

I think we, in our course of our conversation about this, I think the thing that I feel like probably tipped the balance for me as we were sort of discussing this back and forth, and I think I said something along the lines of, I think we're tilting more towards talking more about indie business, indie software business on here.

Daniel (04:04.105)
Entrepreneurship.

Dave (04:06.22)
I guess so. Yes. And, and, and it feels like, you know, we, we dive into bits of the dev here and there, but it's generally all about like what the dev is supporting, what we're trying to build out, where it's going. mean, I'm thinking in these sort of terms these days in terms of I'm adding features to my app, but I'm getting customer feedback and I'm kind of running it in that, that sort of, development loop and lifecycle kind of mode. I'm less concerned these days about whether

you know, the nuances of whether I'm using specific Apple APIs or whatnot I'm more concerned about is my app doing things for its users and that side of things. And, know, the sweet spot in Apple dev is probably somewhere in the middle of all of those things. But yeah, considering where I want to go, where I'm trying to take stuff, the name resonates less with me these days. At some point, I hope.

in the next year or so, I'll be talking about the Android release of my app or some Android release of things in another few years. This is a way out. I could even be talking about releasing something for desktop as well. That's off the back of what I've got together. So.

Yeah, I can see our discussions are getting less and less Apple centric or when they are, I can be quite critical. We've been sort of examining bits of where Apple's been at, you know, the DMA and the stat and the other in the last few months across this year, really. And so, yeah, does the name fit, I think is the question.

Daniel (05:50.669)
So the thing is, I still very much enjoy being adjacent to the Apple ecosystem. But you're right. It's less about, which exact case statement or switch statement am I using? And which exact SwiftUI API am I using? And more about, yeah, how am I building my business? How do I make my users reasonably happy or at least less annoyed?

Dave (05:57.494)
Yes.

Dave (06:17.55)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (06:21.567)
Yeah, it's less about the fun of just programming in a vacuum, but more about the fun and the ambition of like building something that actually people get to use and enjoy. that the programming and the software development is of course a huge part of it, but also like the user interface, the sales, the marketing, all that kind of stuff. that's something that we've been talking about for a while.

Dave (06:47.437)
Yeah.

Daniel (06:49.229)
So yeah, like the idea is out there. Like we don't have a name right now. Like I don't know if we really wanna pull the trigger or anything, but I don't know. Like listeners, do you wanna punch in, pinch in? No, jump in? How do you call that? Do you wanna, I don't know, squeeze in maybe? Do you wanna swipe to zoom?

Dave (06:55.32)
We don't.

Dave (06:59.298)
No.

Dave (07:05.944)
Jumping, yeah.

Cut in. Dancing reference.

Yeah, yeah.

Daniel (07:17.107)
And yeah, like leave us some feedback on the usual channels. What do you think? Also leave weird and fun name ideas because I love weird, weird name ideas. Yeah.

Dave (07:28.589)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I've got a few name ideas that are definitely in the back of my mind, but I don't want to bias anything if...

Daniel (07:40.954)
Yeah, you shot down like four of mine already, which were decidedly weird.

Dave (07:44.608)
Yeah, no. Yeah, we're not doing the rude ones, Daniel, thank you.

Daniel (07:52.183)
fine. But also you're the you're the the primordial host of this podcast. So you have veto power, you have veto power over everything anyway, the primordial

Dave (07:57.642)
think these days, Daniel, it's, it's, primordial one. No, no way. It's too much responsibility. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's not a, not a matrix of leadership situation to, to throw in a Transformers reference there just, just cause. I saw Transformers one last week and it was awesome.

Daniel (08:10.829)
fine. And we're co-hosting.

Dave (08:27.062)
So just to, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel (08:27.293)
wow. Does it hold up? Does it hold up as if it's like a high quality, high quality deep drama or anything?

Dave (08:36.302)
It does the progression of Megatron is awesome to watch play out. So yeah, that's cool.

Daniel (08:47.437)
think I've only seen the first one or maybe the second, but I couldn't even tell you how many there are or what the plot is.

Dave (08:53.666)
This, it's an entirely animated one. So it's good. It's fun.

Daniel (09:01.32)
you're not talking about the Michael Bay movies. of course.

Dave (09:03.85)
No, no, not at all. I think his name's in there somewhere, but yeah, yeah, Yeah.

Daniel (09:09.215)
Of course, you're like the old school stuff.

Dave (09:12.146)
Mm Yeah, no, it's good fun. Really good fun. But anyway, yeah, we're not renaming to the Motrix of leadership. That would be a very different angle of the show.

Daniel (09:22.739)
Are we though? The matrix of leadership. Are we thought leaders now?

Dave (09:31.734)
No, no, not at all Daniel.

Daniel (09:32.653)
I'm a thought leader. I'm such a thought leader.

Dave (09:38.626)
I'll have to, I don't know, I was just thinking if we were doing, we often talk about accents at times between me and you and things like that. so I guess if I was to go back to a full UK English accent, I'd be a fort leader in it,

Daniel (09:55.905)
Yeah

Daniel (09:59.629)
that would be lovely.

Dave (10:00.054)
And now I've lost everybody who was listening at this point as we've gone off into the weeds. But I think to just circle back around on land where we were at, Daniel, new name for the show, yes or no? Ideas. Definitely want to hear from people.

Daniel (10:18.433)
Yeah. And like if everyone tells us, do not rename the show because it would be bad, then we will probably not do it.

Dave (10:27.362)
I know. I don't know. I'm a rebel Daniel. I might just do it anyway.

Daniel (10:30.669)
You

Dave (10:35.639)
Daniel (10:35.672)
That's what I like, that's what I appreciate about you.

Dave (10:39.022)
Well, Daniel, you were telling me earlier that you've been performing software surgery.

Daniel (10:49.825)
I have been, So I've been talking for like five minutes now that, we want to have this show that's like way broad. That's not only about the programming side of things, but let me tell you what I did while programming today. So today was a bit of a weird day. was in an incredibly bad mood, but I had a situation where I talked to Lisa about the fact

Dave (10:51.414)
Yeah, what's been going on there?

Dave (10:59.052)
I I know, I know. Yeah.

Daniel (11:19.149)
we need to like, I need to spend more time coding again, because like the pendulum has swung all the way to marketing and acquisition and stuff and needs to go back now to the coding. And also the spend, the pendulum has also swung towards the servers, which are finally, which seem to finally like, like work properly or at least like humming along nicely for now. So I'm like, okay. And so Lisa is like, okay, she's not working from, she's not working in the office. She's working from home. And so I have this, this nice office.

Dave (11:27.438)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (11:48.533)
It's quiet. No one is there because like not a lot of people came into the office at all today and everyone who was there was like super subdued and kept their doors closed. So I was like, okay, I'm going to dive in deep. just like I'm trying to push the, the revenue cat integration feature as far as I can go so that I can like bump it off the roadmap because I've been reordering the roadmap again. And I'd like to go to the next few items because those are really cool, but also.

Revenue cat integration is really cool. And also, like, three quarters done, so I'd really like to get it out of the door so that people can properly enjoy it. So what already is happening is that a few customers are already using the revenue cat integration, because you can already do that. It's just like it has a beta sticker on it, as in like it's just you have to go to the documentation and do the things. And then the signals are arriving, but the user interface is not showing you anything.

So actually, some people complained like, it's not working. it turns out, actually didn't work for one person. But for most people, it actually did work. It just didn't show up. And so I thought we already have a section in the user interface that says revenue, where you can send specifically crafted telemetry deck signals to report your revenue, just like using the telemetry deck SDK. And I thought, this is a good point to.

improve that UI to make this better and also just allow people to either display data from Telemetry Deck or the data from Revenue Cat. So that's exactly what I did. it turns out one of the features that I really wanted to have was just a list of the most recent sales. And turns out that is not possible right now because

All the queries that telemetry deck supports are queries that aggregate something. So I can tell you like the average or I can tell you the average number of sales, or I can tell you the number of sales per day or per hour or whatever. So that user interface actually did just show like a number of sales per hour pre-today. And yeah, in the end, was like, okay, it's finally time to write, to add in a support for a scan query.

Daniel (14:09.175)
And that's basically the equivalent of, you know, if you write SQL, you would write something like select columns from your table, then get a list of rows back. And so I did that. then I integrated it into the... So I wrote server code to allow for that kind of query and then returned the correct kind of data and also like lots of parsing and like, you know, like refuse that kind of query, that kind of stuff.

And then also I wrote, of course, code on the front end to allow the table component that we already have to display the results for that. And that was kind of neat. But then it turns out that I also need to display lots of formatted values, because these are currencies, right? And I'm like,

The scan query is that one thing. then the, the, the format, like rounding and formatting numbers is the other bane of my existence because the problem is that I haven't really found a way to integrate this in a way that is versatile because like the main feature of telemetry deck is that you can write your own queries, right? And that you can, like, you have all this freedom and like how you query the data. And then it comes back.

Dave (15:11.894)
Yeah.

Daniel (15:32.317)
That also means that all the different charts and stuff, they just need to display all kinds of data. And maybe I'm a bit too extreme in that because I don't think lots of our customers are actually using the super advanced features. But in theory, I could load four different kinds of data into one chart, stuff like that. And if I do that, then it's kind of hard.

to tell the chart, like, format your stuff this way, because it's all kinds of different data. Or let's say I'm comparing number of users versus number of signals versus revenue per day, whatever. Then number of users is differently formatted, because that's a number that should have zero decimal points versus the currency that should have two decimal points and a nice little dollar symbol or a euro symbol or whatever.

I finally found a way, but it's only if you program on the user interface right now. And so, because what I did is in the query, and this is just, so this is not available in the user interface yet, but it's already available for when I build a user interface, right? In the query, I've added various keys that allow me to configure a formatter per...

Aggregation. Aggregation is like one of the like.

Dave (17:04.366)
I feel like I'm now three levels down in your tech stack Daniel.

Daniel (17:07.008)
Yeah.

Okay, aggregation is basically one line in the chart, right? Okay. And so if I do that, and if I just, and the thing that now needs to happen is I need to take that and like pass that piece of information all the way across to the server and back, and then deep into the components, the stack of components that is our charts, right? Because it needs, and then inside the charts,

Dave (17:13.548)
Yeah.

Daniel (17:37.293)
down, down, down, down, down, it reaches the tool tip and the text formatting stuff. Because if I touch all the numbers before that part, like the chart needs numbers to be numbers. It can't be like a string that says one, two, three, four, five, comma, three, four, five, dot, zero, zero, whatever. It needs to be a number so that it can like size the bars and stuff like that, right? And so only in the end when I display the number,

Dave (18:01.176)
Yeah, it needs to know, yeah.

Daniel (18:03.757)
Then I need to format. So I need to carry that formatting information all the way down the stack. And that's what I did. And it felt very much like surgery, like, OK, I want to pass this along, but I want to have as little side effects as possible. I don't want to destroy everything or have all these side effects or unintended consequences. And yeah, when I finally raised my head, it was already dark out.

Dave (18:26.028)
Yeah.

It's a worry when you end up having to get something that's all the way down a stack and pull it all the way back up to the top. That fear is definitely there for me. Again, I feel like I've set the bar of not talking about code at the start of this show and now I can't resist it. So let's see where this goes.

Daniel (18:52.013)
Because you're a rebel.

Dave (18:59.054)
No, it reminds me of as soon as you convert some code to using Swift concurrency, async or wait, the end of things, it has this sort of like ripple effect through the rest of whatever layer you've built, or it can do at least, you know, because then one function's working in that way. And then all of a sudden, in order to work with it, you've got to either raise a task or bring other functions into the same.

same paradigm. And yeah, before you know it, you've kind of bulldozed all these different layers of the thing you've built and that worry about side effects is definitely, definitely there. So yeah, surgery is probably the right metaphor at this stage because you absolutely don't want to F anything up on the way through. I've had some similar ones myself recently, which we can, I guess, talk to in a minute.

Where are you now? Has the patient survived, Daniel, through all of this?

Daniel (20:03.277)
The patient seems to have survived. actually, I'm kind of done asterisk with that user interface. I think I still need to test it I think now is one of those, when the pendulum's swinging back towards the code, I want to also raise code quality. So I don't want to push anything halfheartedly.

Dave (20:14.99)
sweet.

Daniel (20:31.961)
And also, I think I need a few more days to prepare just blog posts and stuff like that, and maybe even ask Revenue Cat if they want to mention this on their blog. I showed you a screen share of the user interface earlier before we recorded. And yeah, I'm kind of happy with how it looks. It has all the information. And one thing that is still missing is

Dave (20:32.238)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (20:50.796)
Mm-hmm, you did.

Daniel (21:03.522)
These are hard coded charts, right? And what I want to do is I want to have some kind of button or menu that says, copy this chart into your dashboards and then edit it.

Dave (21:15.574)
Right. Yep.

Daniel (21:16.641)
because I want to motivate people to use the dashboard feature where you can actually just write your own charts. And so I feel like this would be a nice way to get people started to be like, hey, look at this chart. You can't edit this chart because I can't be bothered to write a new layout system that allows that kind of advanced layout yet. But you can copy this chart, and then you can edit that, and then you have your own dashboard.

Dave (21:23.758)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (21:46.582)
change everything like filters and aggregators and stuff like that. And so that's something that I want to do.

Dave (21:51.448)
I like that. I like that. you've got a starting point and then it say, yeah, if you want to make this your own off you go. Yeah.

Daniel (22:00.641)
Yeah, that's something that I want to do before I release this. Also write a bit of documentation.

Daniel (22:09.957)
Yeah, if I have, no, that's probably, I'm thinking of, could I add another addition to the chart system where I can just show the previous month in the same chart as the current month and compare them? But I think that's out of scope for this. I want to finish revenue-guided integration so I can go back to the next item on the roadmap, which actually, which is the next item on the roadmap? I have to look.

But still, so yeah, probably gonna skip that one.

Dave (22:42.444)
Yep, that's fine. Yeah, it's, but it's the thing, right? So I'm bringing this back around to business again and that end of stuff, right? Just to appease that bit of myself that feels like I've set that task. But you, there's a few things within what you've just talked about, which is, you've been all the way down in the code, in the weed, several layers down. You've now retrieved.

Daniel (22:53.805)
Please, please.

Dave (23:11.202)
this artifact from down there to bring it back for your customers, right? You've got this feature. And you've touched on a couple of things that I think are pretty pertinent, which is that part of finishing this task is you're writing a blog post about it. You're going to tell your customers about it, that this thing exists. And you've got that broadcast mode. And we've talked about the pendulum shift and that side of things as well.

Daniel (23:36.821)
Yeah, even need to, I think I even need to tech talk about it.

Dave (23:40.714)
Yeah. Yeah. And, this is, this is a thing though, right? I've noticed this shift in my, myself and what I'm doing lately with, with my app and everything else. And that is that I'm talking about all of this stuff as I build, as I get the features ready, I'm just being that bit more vocal about all of it. Because if I think back to maybe a year or two ago, I was

building this, putting it together, and then maybe pushing a message to my mailing list. But I certainly wasn't as active on Instagram as I am these days. And I am actually trying to post a little bit more to things like TikTok as well. And I'm doing all of that now. And I'm getting that feedback loop going. And it is...

Daniel (24:26.541)
Yeah, you're doing fantastic and amazing. Like every other day, I see you just like showing off some kind of new development with cool music and just like with the amazing visuals that Govj can actually do. So I love it. Like it's so, so great. Like keep going, keep going.

Dave (24:42.36)
Thank you, Yeah, and it's useful because I'm getting user feedback as I go, even if it's just people are interacting with and liking things and, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, thumb up sort of, you know, and you can look at it and go, yeah, it's a bit like, looks good to me on a pull request. But it's not right. If people don't like something, they don't bother. They just keep scrolling and.

Daniel (25:00.833)
Ha ha ha ha!

Dave (25:09.866)
Yeah, it's been very useful for me to have that sort of bit in my process now. It's motivating for a start, you you sort of feel like, well, I'm going to let people down if I don't get this thing out the door, because I've talked about it. And it has this kind of, for me, it's developing into this sort of flywheel kind of effect, right? It's motivating me, driving me, but it's also a feedback loop where I'm getting this information back from my customers.

And I've learned a lot through doing this. the more I do this, the more I'm learning, the more I'm getting the app sort of tuned to what people want and need. It's interesting to me where assumptions I might have made from a very code-orientated and dev brain mode, then get challenged as well. Like audio reactivity is a feature. So many different things I could do there. I could have a...

I can have a graphic equalizer that you can sort of like filter the sound on the way in, whether or not I have gain controls, decay, all the other bits that I've got on there. I could let people edit and add their own audio monitors into the app. So I want to look at this frequency only and get it all the way down to that. In the end, I've settled somewhere in the middle of all of it because the reality is that most people just want

Daniel (26:26.541)
Mm.

Dave (26:39.21)
Small, medium, large, right? There's their choices. So at the moment, I've whittled it all the way down to like, OK, you can play with the settings and they'll persist. You can't create your own. So the fragmentation that could have occurred there with somebody maybe having several hundred different really specific audio monitors active at the same time, not a thing. Like the code could still do it. It supports it.

Daniel (26:42.178)
Right.

Dave (27:05.536)
same as you're describing with a lot of your querying and that end of stuff, it's quite flexible. But I've pulled it all the way through to just being fairly simple options. The more I do of that, the feedback seems to be for the better. People just want to get started. They want to play. They want to have a go with stuff. The fact that I want to geek out about this stuff and go, but you could get this really fine grain thing here. That's could be really fun. A lot of people don't care about.

Daniel (27:31.201)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (27:35.534)
and I guess all of this to say like, this is me readying for release now as well. And I go into that mode where I'm looking down my laundry list of stuff that I want to do that I've thought in the process when I've been in that, that, what is it? I described it as before the fugue state of programming, where you're sort of completely in the middle of it. my list is important to me in that mode and then my customers don't give us stuff. They just want to play.

Daniel (27:53.28)
Yeah.

Daniel (28:03.405)
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I'm deleting the things that are optional of my list right now. They're important, but yeah, there are actually more important things to help the customers now.

Dave (28:08.75)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dave (28:16.92)
That's it. And then you don't need to delete those things. Like, you know, I tend to keep my ideas around and everything else. I guess I'm being quite literal here, like, chuck it, chuck it to the backlog, you know, move on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know. But do you know, sometimes when you're, for me, what happens is, is I backlog these things and then further down the line, I'll be thinking about something adjacent to it again. And I'm like, and it could do this and this. And I'm like,

Daniel (28:27.937)
Now it's in the backlog, but you know what happens if the backlog stays in the backlog.

Dave (28:46.59)
sure I've thought about this before and I've checked my backlog ideas and I've got yeah so it still has its uses. But no I think like I say the more that I interact with with my customers the more that I'm putting these little videos out to Instagram and everywhere else the more I'm learning the more I'm tuning things in and yeah it's

Daniel (28:49.079)
Yeah, it's true.

Dave (29:15.618)
That's the whole thing. I, I'm just glad I'm doing this now. And I feel like I've perhaps missed out over the years by not going so hard on it all in some ways.

Daniel (29:27.853)
Totally like you're like from the outside. It seems like you're on an absolutely different level. It's such a joy to see all the stuff that like you are probably working less on the code than you did half a year ago. But I'm seeing so much more and I'm seeing what I can do with Govj. So it's like, damn, I want to use it. Like I don't have a use for it. I really want to use it. So like, yeah, keep

Dave (29:43.374)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Dave (29:55.896)
Yeah.

Daniel (29:57.719)
keep doing that. I'm still thinking how can I integrate this better. I don't know.

Dave (30:03.086)
Mm hmm. Well, that that that's part of where things may go over the next over the next year or so as I sort of, round things out, like this, the, the app as it is right now is, is, it's not, but it's starting to feel quite complete, you know, in a sense of like, okay, the big problems are kind of solved now, you know, and, it's now more just sort of iterative and adding stuff on top.

Daniel (30:21.666)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (30:32.471)
like a microwave going.

Dave (30:34.95)
Yes, yes, it's cooked. It's cooked. And, and yeah, so, so you'll see, you'll see more of this as a sort of DOS stuff. And I've got ideas of like, okay, how do we adapt this to sort of make it more generally useful as well? But yeah, anyway, customer feedback, getting involved in all of that, putting the message out and that side of things. It feels

stupidly obvious to say it out loud, but it's vital, I think, when building something that you're to put out there. the trouble that DevBrain, DevMode Dave has, if you like, is that he just wants to work on the code and be in that fugue state in that three levels down bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel (31:19.789)
Because that's the fun thing. But yeah.

Dave (31:26.926)
But no, and I've got one other bit that sort of links off this actually, Daniel, which is that I have started running ads lately. Go on, go on.

Daniel (31:34.443)
Right, before you talk about ads though, I have a question and I might already have the answer in my heart because yeah, now that I'm thinking about it anyway. Like, so I was thinking you are doing all that, like you're showing off the user interface for Govj so much and what you're doing is like you're including a lot of like copyrighted music in it, right? Because you're playing music and then VJing over the music. And my question was like, is there, like, do you have like, is there, is that possible basically? Or how?

Dave (31:42.179)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (31:54.787)
Yes.

Daniel (32:02.989)
Or is there like, you get like releases or stuff like that? Or there's this service that I actually do pay for that has, you know.

Dave (32:03.064)
So.

Dave (32:09.358)
Nah, it's a bit smoke and mirrors to be honest, Daniel. yeah, when posting to Instagram or TikTok, I can select the music to accompany the post. And yeah, yeah.

Daniel (32:21.067)
Right. And that's the answer that popped into my head as I was asking the question, which is like, yeah, you just like don't record it yourself. You just select the music that is like offered by the service.

Dave (32:28.43)
Yeah, well, I do both. I do both right. So I'll play the music while I'm recording along my video mix. So I've got that on the video as a microphone input and it sounds awful because I'm just playing the music on a speaker in my room. So it's not a proper audio feed yet. Yeah. That's right. When I post, I read the music by selecting the audio for the post and then Instagram or TikTok link through the actual artist and it's tagged correctly.

Daniel (32:43.917)
So you're like re-adding the music basically.

Dave (32:58.394)
and what I do is I adjust the audio so can hear both and I get it roughly in time and then turn off the original crappy audio from my mic. but this links, this links with what I was about to talk about with the ads, which is you cannot use that music for an ad because at that point that's where the service runs out because it would be, okay, I'm,

Daniel (33:08.769)
You smart badger!

Daniel (33:16.715)
Uh-huh.

Daniel (33:22.37)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (33:27.092)
using, I don't know, insert famous artists name here for a paid promotion and they don't have that link with me. So Instagram or TikTok won't let you do that. And that's fine. And then there's a whole load of royalty free music that they have that they let you run, that they let you use. So for that, with the ad that I've

literally just set one up yesterday so I'm yet to really see a load of information back from it. But I chose one of my videos that the matching of the music didn't matter. So having everything in sync wasn't the thing I needed to worry about. I chose the ninth birthday compilation video that I put together that runs through people's video mixes. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel (34:14.049)
Very nice. Yeah, that's a good one.

Dave (34:17.07)
and then I tried some royalty free music that roughly sort of matched the time and went, yeah, let's see what happens. Like this, this is the other thing about me at the moment. Daniel is that I on some of these things, I'm trying not to think too deeply about it and trying to avoid decision paralysis. So if I'm like, yeah, it's near enough. Cool. Run and gun. Keep going. Get that out there. Let's see what happens. yeah.

Daniel (34:24.279)
Okay.

Daniel (34:41.037)
it. Fantastic. So like, like, do you want to look at it now? And like, tell me what you're seeing? Like, is there like, do you have to get installs? Do you get impressions? Do you get like, how many hundreds of 1000s of New Zealand dollars have you spent?

Dave (34:49.069)
Huh?

Mmm.

Dave (34:59.05)
Let's see, we can do an actual screen share if this wants to work. Give me half a second.

Daniel (35:05.217)
I mean, you can, but I don't like if you don't mind sharing your numbers.

Dave (35:08.202)
No, no. Right. So I'm using Sidecar and it won't let me use iPhone mirroring. We've we've encountered this before that is frustrating. But.

Daniel (35:17.323)
Right. Yeah, aw, that must be so hard not to be able to use iPhone mirroring.

Dave (35:25.358)
I'm so sorry. You don't have it yet, do you? Blink blink once in geo located blocked features. Damn it. No. So in terms of how they've ran though, it's early days and I've limited the budget. So it's very much a time in the water.

I'll link stuff up for the show notes though. See if I, I'm probably not going to link the ad, but I'll link the video that's being used in the ad so you can see the original. So I don't want to distort the ad figures in any way. But yeah, the thing that I have noticed is even running it with a very limited budget, like I've let it go. Okay. You can spend $40 US over the next five days.

Daniel (36:01.484)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (36:20.738)
And this is what you're looking for. it's looking for people who are similar to my existing followers. So again, not thinking too deeply. I've just used the automatic settings. Yeah. Yeah. You can niche down, right? You can go, okay, people are interested in this, this, this, and this and create a cohort and say, okay, you're going to go and advertise to that. And I looked at that and then came all the way back up and went.

Daniel (36:29.431)
That was the next question. Like, how do you, like, how do you select target audience?

Daniel (36:42.732)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (36:50.574)
Now let's just let it do its automatic thing and see what that brings back. So the moment I've just ticked the box to say, find me, find me more people like the people who already follow me. And yeah, 24 hours in and I've got a few new followers and I've had a lot of interactions. I think I've spent about $2 my budget. So.

Daniel (37:02.369)
Nice.

Daniel (37:14.246)
What's the target or the goal of the campaign? Like is it app installs? Is it like, or is it like followers?

Dave (37:19.682)
That is the goal. The followers and profile interactions at this stage for that campaign. So yes, yes. And actually that's probably, feel sort of intuitively right now, I feel like that is what I should be gunning for with this because those people will see more of the content I'm putting out. There may be more interactions, more sharing from that. It will boost those pieces of content through the algorithm as well.

Daniel (37:25.037)
All right, so I just like grow the audience basically.

Daniel (37:48.161)
Yeah, and that fits very well with just your kind of app, right? Because you're such a visual and like audio visual app, really, you are, you have. And so, yeah, that's like, that seems like a very smart strategy.

Dave (37:48.492)
So this is a bit of a...

Mm-hmm.

Dave (38:01.238)
Yeah, so I think I'm going to run that, like I say, for the next few days, see what that turns out. I also think this time around when I release this version of the app, I'm going to put together a video, of course. I will post to my mailing list as always. And actually, I might run an ad campaign for this version of the app.

Daniel (38:22.786)
huh. yeah.

Dave (38:25.682)
so yeah, we'll see, we'll see how that goes, but it sort of feels like, at this stage, I've got some revenue coming through from existing users. So I'm in a nice position. a bootstrapped approach to this is to them feed that money back into growing the app. And that's something I've not been doing very actively. So this is what I'm looking at now as well as can I use that to signal boost?

game or customers. And it's a little bit limited at this stage, right? Because, because I think I could put all of that money back in and probably not see an immediate, it's not going to just make money by throwing money at it at this stage.

Daniel (39:10.271)
No, but you gotta make it into a business. father, fun times are over. It's about business now. It's business time.

Dave (39:12.918)
Yeah. Mm hmm. Exactly. Business time. And yeah, I'm experimenting with this stuff. So we'll talk about it more, guess, in future shows where I've got a bit to show about it. But again, another point for audience interaction, though, here is for listeners of the show that I've got this far. If you've got any experience working with things like Instagram ads,

Daniel (39:27.393)
Yeah, fantastic.

Dave (39:42.29)
that side of things. I'd actually love to hear from you so tag me on the mastodons, comment on the YouTube video, find the discord channel that we've got linked in the show notes and come and say hello. Any of those things if you if you're like yeah I ran Instagram ads and this was my experience I'm right in that zone right now so please reach out any any advice and help is appreciated.

Yeah.

Daniel (40:15.521)
That's what I appreciate about you.

Dave (40:18.51)
Hey

Dave (40:22.374)
It's nice to be appreciated. okay. Okay. I was thinking more like Ted Lasso. Yeah.

Daniel (40:22.529)
watching F and re-watching Letter Kenny.

Daniel (40:33.729)
that too, yeah. Yeah, but like, please, like, I'm super into that idea. And I resolve hereby to like, I'm writing this down, like, I just bumped off a few things off into the backlog. So I'm allowed to add a new to-do, which is one TikTok about chart features. You know?

Dave (40:50.158)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (41:02.776)
Yeah. I want to hear about what it lets you do.

Yeah, sorry. Turning into manager mode again and giving you tasks as is my want.

Daniel (41:16.973)
no, I gave the task to myself though. That feels way better. But yeah, it is, like we've been revamping the website a lot and like most of the work has been done by Lisa and she's done an absolutely fantastic job. So basically I'm just building a, or like I just built a CMS or a CMS integration. And then like she has been doing all the content and our fantastic content writer Marina.

Dave (41:43.278)
That's awesome. Yep.

Daniel (41:47.878)
And so much is about showing what this thing actually can do. And that's also, that's always been my goal with this website. But I can only show developers how it works. That's always my kind of focus. And so we're adding some different perspective into that as well now. And that's pretty cool. But yeah, I think...

Dave (42:12.718)
That's cool.

Daniel (42:16.875)
That needs to be the goal going forward to do that on different social media as well. And actually, Lisa, my co-founder has been listening to this show. so every now and then, she's like, recently she sent me a TikTok link and I'm like, wait, that's a TikTok about the new feature that we just released. Or that's a TikTok about the new Orbiter survey release where we just show you what's the market share of various.

Dave (42:25.72)
Awesome.

Dave (42:42.03)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (42:46.061)
Apple and non-Apple platforms. And like she just made a TikTok about it, like low effort, but actually really cool. like, like when she was like, yeah, I listened to the show and you said you do this. And I was like, no, I'm going to do this.

Dave (43:00.248)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (43:03.79)
Brilliant. Well, again, that low effort, just talk about it, just get going. Yeah, it definitely resonates. Like I said earlier, my phrases sort of become run and gun, just shoot it, just get it out there. I mean, we've had this, you've spotted things on some of my videos and post me like, Dave, you could tweak that, make that better. And every time I'm like, yeah, next time I'll make that better. But I don't.

I don't feel any need to go back and edit stuff or all that side of things. It's just, just keep moving. Just keep moving. Yeah.

Daniel (43:37.087)
no, no, you should never edit it. But if you're taking one piece of criticism, if there's any way that you can easily highlight where you're tapping while using the app, that would be really helpful because then my eyes can follow even better, understand better, the video just arrives in my brain even better.

Dave (43:54.828)
Yeah. Nah, that's, hear you Daniel. And I feel like I need a demo mode maybe where the taps are actually expressed on the app so I can just record it. I have been thinking about something like that because if I screen record while I'm using the app, yeah, does, it doesn't, it's not always obvious what's, what's actually been affected and twiddled with for want of a better phrase, twiddled.

Daniel (44:22.571)
whittled.

Dave (44:24.546)
Yes. So, yes, I shall, I shall give that, give that a bit of thought.

Daniel (44:34.859)
with a bit of a twiddling.

Dave (44:37.47)
Anyway, before I end up with twiddle mode on my whiteboard as a task, Daniel, I'm feeling...

Daniel (44:44.917)
Like the iPhone has jiggle mode, but our apps have twiddle mode.

Dave (44:47.882)
We have twiddle mode. Before you know it, I've got twiddle, twiddle kits as a new GitHub repository. Now I'm sure there'll be a library for highlighting touches I could bring in and maybe just add as a dev mode. But no.

Daniel (45:07.551)
If you're screen recording on like are you screen recording on your phone or on the Mac? okay, because on the Mac there's already stuff like right, okay

Dave (45:14.594)
my phone.

Yeah.

Daniel (45:23.757)
Yeah, like try it out. in the meantime, I think I have to go soon and like do some TikToks maybe. But in the meantime, I want to say no, actually, I don't want I want to say I was a good night. No, I'm like, I'm not I'm not committing to any more. I'm not committing to any more work.

Dave (45:23.831)
Yeah.

Dave (45:30.84)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (45:45.304)
Hahaha!

Good morning, man.

Daniel (45:52.385)
I was like, I'm going to make a TikTok right now. No, I'm not. It's my end of the... Did you know that Germans have a word for the happy feeling after a work day? Like it's called Feierabend. It means... means... Literally means like party evening or like festivity evening. But it's not necessarily an actual festivity. There's no like party or anything. It's just like the...

Dave (46:06.531)
No?

Dave (46:13.792)
OK. Yep.

Dave (46:20.588)
I'm disappointed now.

Daniel (46:21.323)
The feeling that you're putting down your pen and getting up and then your coworkers are all like, have a nice fire-abend. And you're like, yes, I'm free now. And so that's my fire-abend.

Dave (46:30.69)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (46:36.15)
Awesome. I like that. I love that phrase. I'm at the beginning of the day as usual. So I've got a full day of work and everything else ahead of me, Daniel. But let's close out the show.

Daniel (46:51.829)
Let's indeed. Thanks everyone so much for listening. Please do write us on iTunes and YouTube and send us emails at contact at waitingforreview.com. Also, like write your comments down into the Discord, especially about our possible rename and join our Discord. The link is in the show notes. Dave, where can people find you online?

Dave (47:06.99)
Mm-hmm.

Dave (47:13.618)
you I've got a reference Instagram talks about it all the way through the show, as we often do. So on Instagram, my username there for my apps is lightbeamapps.com. That's with dot coms just spelled D O T com on the end. How about yourself, Daniel?

Daniel (47:33.026)
Smart. Yeah, I think I want to gain some more followers on threads. I've been trying to be on both Blue Sky and threads in addition to Macedon. huh, nothing. don't know. I'm not really gaining traction on either. I can't even find my friends, really. So if you are my friend, or if you want to be my friend, or if you just like what I'm saying, follow me on threads. My username is like,

Dave (47:39.63)
Hmm.

Dave (47:44.174)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (48:00.937)
my original username back from like thousands of years ago. So it's Wyn Smith, W-I-N-S-M-I-T-H, Wyn Smith. After Winston Smith, the protagonist of 1984, because I used to be a very edgy teenager. And it's hard to change these names. All right. So follow us on the socials. And yeah.

Dave (48:09.802)
cute.

Dave (48:20.149)
Brilliant.

Well.

Daniel (48:27.201)
Have a fantastic workday and then after your fantastic workday, I hope you have a fantastic Feierabend, Dave.

Dave (48:33.806)
Fire Arbent, thank you. I look forward to Fire Armbed. Awesome, well, catch you then and enjoy yours, Daniel, and I'll see you soon.

Daniel (48:35.383)
Firearmt.

Daniel (48:47.127)
Thank you so much. Bye.

Daniel (48:55.859)
I kinda ran out of energy.

Dave (48:57.678)
I'm