Daniel (00:01.058) Hello, hello, hello. Dave (00:03.403) Hello? Daniel (00:05.442) Dave, how's it going? It's nice to see you again. Dave (00:08.493) It's nice to see you too, Yeah, stuff's good. I was about to do a very typical English thing and start referring to how the weather's going here because New Zealand's finally getting into spring. Daniel (00:20.216) I saw you stand in a stream on the reels, I think. Dave (00:25.837) On Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. So, we, we moved to this house a year ago. And one of the things we moved here for is the fact it's further out from the city, from Wellington, from suburbia. it's still suburbia, but we're like right on the edge. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm on the edge of, where the streetlights run out. If I go 10 minutes walking one direction, it's, it's farms and that end of stuff. And Daniel (00:49.303) Nice. Dave (00:54.709) Otherwise, if I walk the other direction, I could walk under street light all the way into Wellington City, technically. So, yeah, the rivers, rivers are nice spot here and yeah, I Instagrammed it. I did a very cheesy I'm standing in a river wishing everybody a good morning. Kind of real. And it, it, it, man, it felt, it felt cheesy, but then actually it felt genuine, right? I have, it was a really good moment where the sun was just beaming through everything. And I often just do that. Just go and stand in the middle of the river and take it in. because if I'm wearing my boots, that's easy and it's shallow. and I was like, yeah, no, I want to share this. This is, this is kind of cool. so yeah, I had a moment. Daniel (01:17.048) You're such a mom. Dave (01:45.377) and you were all invited. Yes. I've been one for a long time, Daniel. Daniel (01:46.114) You're such a dad. you Daniel (01:53.816) Fantastic, and I assume you're a pretty good one. By the way, welcome to Waiting for a View, a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle and apparently parenthood and streams. Join your scintillating hosts, Dave and Daniel, and let's hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. Join us while waiting for a view. Dave (01:58.102) I hope so. Dave (02:17.751) Yay! Daniel (02:19.352) We're in the shop proper now. I have to tell you, I'm exhausted today. I told you a bit about it on the pre -show already, like, I've had, I've just had a week, you know? It is, maybe we can just launch into this. Like, my problem is, I think, like, my problem. The list of my problems is long. Dave (02:21.291) We are. Dave (02:26.775) Hmm Dave (02:40.279) Go for it. Daniel (02:48.716) But a not insignificant part of my problem is I'm wearing too many hats, right? I'm the co -manager of the whole company. I am the CTO. I'm the product owner. And I'm the DevOps person. And I'm mostly the UI designer. yeah, and the project manager. Dave (03:06.583) Yes. Dave (03:09.965) get the SRE as well, Daniel (03:14.988) because now I have a few people who helped me out, which I'm very, grateful for. But of course, these people need to be project managed. And the thing is, I've done all these things before, to some extent, or less, like less DevOps probably, and more like development, but still. I've been a project manager, a team leader, a technical lead, stuff like that. But I've never been a PO. And I'm... Dave (03:40.375) He Daniel (03:44.204) I'm finding it very hard to like on the fly create processes and communicate my ideas in a way that then my coworkers are just like able to be like, yeah, I'm gonna do that. And in an ideal world, I would probably just like be able to just like sit down, think about this properly, like let it sit for a few days and then write like a long ticket and then like split that ticket up into individual. subtasks or whatever, and then have like a drawing, a few schematics, a few UI sketches or whatever, and then like talk to all the shareholders and like bring everyone on board and be like, okay, like what do we need on the server? What do we need on the front end? Like what do we need anywhere else? And I think that would be delightful, but the thing is, I have, I feel like for all these tasks, I have like 10 minutes. So, Dave (04:30.636) Yep. Dave (04:36.324) Hmm Daniel (04:43.678) What I'm hoping for is just writing a few sentences and a ticket and then Zoom calling the stakeholders and be like, okay, everyone, this is what I want. Can you do it? And they're usually like, yeah, I guess. then that's how it goes. Dave (05:00.075) What happens though, right? So what in that hypothetical, what do you think happens if you do do it like that? People run with it. Is it an issue then if you've then got to go, well, not like that, but like this a hundred times until you actually get it where it needs to be. Yeah. Daniel (05:16.194) Yeah, that's the one thing. Yeah, like I'm kind of still in the phase where I'm hoping people will read my mind and then I'm kind of disappointed when they don't read my mind, which is on me, of course. So, yeah, I think I think the solution for this right now is because it's an issue of prioritization, right? I have only nine ish hours in a day on a workday. Dave (05:22.433) Mm -hmm. Dave (05:27.125) It is, is. Yeah. Dave (05:45.345) Yes, and that's still too much really. Yeah. Daniel (05:46.68) And I know, but still. so like, need to be, I need to be happy with what I get. And if it doesn't look the way I like how it looks, then that's just, well, too bad. That's the, that's right now for the next few months. That is the right decision. But at the same time, I think, like I'm working with professionals. So I'm like, okay, it needs to do, I, need, I, what I do need to do is like define Dave (06:05.9) Yeah. Daniel (06:16.258) define some requirements that are very checkable. Like it needs to do this, this, this, and this. Maybe some hints about like how things are implemented. Because that's actually like, like when I look at my architecture, I'm like, yeah, this makes so much sense. But it turns out if I let another person in there, they're like, what is this weird haunted place? So I need to add a few more pointers towards architecture. Dave (06:38.997) Yes. Daniel (06:45.686) and then I just need the professionals to do their job, I think. At the same time, the prioritization goes even further, right? right now, like, there's this, I don't know who said it. I'm afraid it's like one of those Uncle Bob pop sayings who, like, Uncle Bob, I'm not the greatest fan. Anyway, there's this thing that I heard the other day, make it work, make it right, and then make it fast. Dave (07:07.28) Say it anyway, WubWoof. Daniel (07:15.486) And like I haven't heard, hadn't heard this before, but it works like that's kind of how I work. Like in a, in a fractal sense, like for individual functions that are right. But it turns out to also work like that when I'm building a company or a product. and Dave (07:27.767) Mm Dave (07:32.023) That's probably, and I would say like it rings true to me. Do you know what I mean? Like, because you follow that one through, right? If you've got something that doesn't work, well, there's nothing for you to sell to anybody or bring any value to your users and customers. And then, you know, make it right. I think was the one that followed. Yeah, that makes sense. You know what mean? You've stood it up, but now you need to sort of buttress that or refactor or do whatever it needs to be to be stable. And then, make it fast. Make it fast coming last thing's true to me because what you're trying to say is don't over optimize upfront. Really, that sort of boils down to. Yeah, I think. If I look at all of this, though. Daniel (08:17.514) Exactly. Yeah. Dave (08:28.021) If I was a contractor working for you here, Daniel, I put myself in that position and I'm getting these inputs from you. You have to be OK with them going through the same stages as well. You can't expect the second bit, you know, make it right before it's working. You can't expect make it fast before they've made it right. I'm going to take this. to the nth degree, you in your management of people in your guidance as a leader of it, you've got to accept like, okay, it's not going to be at that level the first time around. But as long as it's working, that's fine. Yeah. Daniel (09:07.938) That's actually not even what I was working towards. What I'm working towards is I think the product telemetry deck or the company, I don't know, is now kind of switching over from the make it work phase into the make it right phase. So making it work, we have a product that is reasonably successful that people are paying serious money for and that Dave (09:12.983) Okay. Daniel (09:36.792) gives people some value. Like there's still like a 100 kilometer long list of things that are missing and that I really would like to add, but it, it's, works, right? It is a, a thing that is successful. Next up though, is like making this thing right. As in it needs to be self -sustainable. we need to reach profitability and, and that is like in like, it almost in reach like it's a tentative tentatively close. And, but that needs to be the next step, right? Like this thing needs to be able to support itself long -term. And then I think, so I think what I wanna say is like, be a bit more ruthless in deciding what I do with my personal time to find out like, what are the things that are. that are most helpful towards the goal of making it right before I work on making it fast, by which I mean like making it look pretty and quick and have all the features that I would like to add. Dave (10:42.903) Yep. Yeah. So I think this can work. I'm just looking. We've had a conversation before all of this. You kind of brain dumped a whole bunch of your context. if I'm sort sifting through everything we've just said, it's a case of setting that priority, being very clear about, well, OK, this is now. You know, these are the key priorities. These are the things we're going to quote, unquote, make right. If you were there, if you will, these are my priorities for telemetry deck, the product right now for a period of time. So your event horizon on that could be a year. It could be six months. It could be three months, but you've got to say, okay, you got to set some sort of cadence to it. Right. So then you're actually working towards these things as, goals, as milestones and And so there's something there that is guiding decision -making for a period of time before you will then sort of review and set some nuance and you can keep going and keep going like that. And then I think the handoff really of this is it's not just you who should be being ruthless in this way, right? You should actually be encouraging everybody in your team to also be being that ruthless with how they do because that's how this stuff sort of can cascade. you're saying very clearly, these are the priorities, anything that doesn't sort of fit towards this can wait until later. There's a subset of that that anybody working on those things for you can also then start using that as a. Dave (12:35.221) a rubric as a rule set for their decision making as well, which means they're then able to start prioritizing their time and the efforts they're bringing to you autonomously to a degree because you've set that guideline. Daniel (12:54.016) Look at us being a business podcast now. Welcome to the tiny business podcast. It, it very much does. It very much does. It feels like, yeah, I, I, what I want to do over the next few days is, get COVID, get the new COVID vaccine, but also like, think about Dave (12:56.702) yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but does that ring true? Yeah, yeah. Daniel (13:20.148) What is, what are like, I know what my priorities are, but like, what are the exact things that I want to do and or not to reach those. And I think that's a good way to think about that. And I feel like there have been always like, there's always these inflection points. And that's a thing that I've been thinking a lot about. There's like a, basically there's like, I think there's a talk in me somewhere that wants to come out about exactly that topic. Dave (13:47.767) Yeah. Daniel (13:49.398) But there's always these inflection points where you're like, OK, this has been the ideal and good solution for our product, our company. But now suddenly it doesn't fit any longer. And until now, most of these inflection points have been of a technical nature. Like, our data doesn't really fit into Postgres anymore because it's not the right type of data. Let's check out time series databases. like the stuff doesn't fit on one server anymore. Like let's check our hosting providers. Now it is a organizational and prioritization and time issue. And so, yeah, I think I need to find my way there. then, yeah, I'm actually taking next week off for vacation, which is going to be fun. I hope. Dave (14:20.353) Yes. Dave (14:26.593) Mm -hmm. Dave (14:32.993) Yes. Daniel (14:46.904) And so I have some time to breathe and think. Dave (14:47.521) I, I, that sounds like a good idea to me because you're. Yeah, you've got enough on your plate and I think having a vacation time is a good idea regardless of the fact it's also going to feel like, my God, all these things are going to stack up while I'm away. It can be a very good point then to help you reprioritize resets and, you know, what's important will still be there when you get back and what's not might have dropped away as well. So, but yeah. Daniel (15:20.908) Yeah, pretty much. Too bad though, like I am going to go on a dynamic island for my vacation. Dave (15:23.546) I Dave (15:29.649) Really? You're going on a dynamic island? Wow. Is this a reference to a certain device that's winging its way to you? Daniel (15:33.75) Yeah. Daniel (15:39.606) Yeah, but the device is not arriving before I leave. Dave (15:42.822) no. no. Daniel (15:45.816) We ordered, like he said, I ordered ourselves new iPhones because, I mean, you're going to get to give yourself something, Like pay ourselves like a salary that is about a quarter of what I could earn or whatever. yeah, I feel like that's kind of our bonus that we're doing for ourselves the first time. But it arrives about halfway through my week vacation, which is too bad. Dave (16:14.123) Right. Are you going away on your vacation, Daniel? Hey. Daniel (16:18.604) Yeah, I'm flying to Mallorca and riding my bike all over that island. That's why it's a dynamic island. Dave (16:25.485) Beautiful. that's awesome. And then when you get back, you've got a Dynamic island on an iPhone 16 Pro Max waiting for you, right? Yeah Daniel (16:26.86) Yeah. Daniel (16:35.064) Indeed, in brownish desert color. Dave (16:39.725) Yeah, yeah. I haven't ordered one. I haven't ordered one. I came close, but I decided to hold fire. Daniel (16:43.946) And I ordered a case as well. Daniel (16:54.252) Yeah, it's better for the environment, for your wallet, and, you know, just for the whole world, basically. But should we talk a tiny bit about technology and programming and stuff like that? Dave (17:13.823) Yeah, do you have a particular topic? If you don't, I do. go on, go for it. Daniel (17:16.758) Yes, yes, that's actually a blower from last week that I wanted to tell you about last week, but I actually, like we didn't have time for it basically. And so last week what I did was I finally installed Sentry everywhere. Like. Dave (17:24.66) Mm Dave (17:36.439) So we threw it. Daniel (17:37.752) All right, so Sentry is a software solution or a software as a service that similarly to telemetry deck, you have like a small software SDK package that you can include in your program. And when something crashes, the crash kind of arrives on their page and you get a stack trace, you get lots of like, I don't know, like context. And you also get like stats like, okay, this issue happened for 700 users. This issue first appeared in this git commit and last appeared in that git commit. So we assume this git commit fixed it, that kind of stuff. It's also pretty privacy focused. So that is also nice. I have like in previous lives, I worked religiously with Sentry, like all the time. And somehow I never even thought about including it in telemetry deck. And the reason for it is unclear to me. But I assume that it's because I was kind of in the back of my head thinking, should I do this myself at some point? Will someone else like do this something? But in the end, like, I don't know, like the founder of Sentry is actually someone I know. Hi Armin, if you listen to this. And I'm like, I should really do this. And I kind of regret not doing it earlier. Like one of my, like one of my, Dave (18:44.364) Yeah. Daniel (19:06.69) Let me begin again. One of my philosophies as a technical leader, especially, is like, you have this pyramid of quality, right? And you have, like in there is unit tests and integration tests and user tests and stuff like that, but they're further up. like further towards the bottom is actually just tracing errors. Like if an error occurs, you should know about it. And somehow I... Forgot this for, like I have this, I have error tracking on the server, for example. Like if something goes wrong on the server, it will actually, like that happens seldomly enough that the server will just email me. But at the same time, especially on the front end, but also like in various like smaller packages, yeah, like there is errors. And it is very helpful to see. Dave (19:44.205) Yep. Daniel (19:59.958) Like where things are going wrong the most, is like, to be fair, like different from what I was assuming, which is actually very helpful to see. For example, the most, like the most current error is basically when you log out of telemetry deck, then the UI will still try to retrieve stuff from the API. But well, of course the API will refuse and that kind of just throws an exception that kind of just lands in the console. And like, I can fix that with two lines. And so I still like, don't want to fall into a hole of like, yeah, I'm going to try to fix everything here because priorities, right? But here's my reminder to you, but also our listeners, like don't forget to track your errors. Like if you are on like iPhone only, like Xcode will do most of the work for you, but Dave (20:36.557) That's brilliant. Daniel (20:59.036) even then like, click, just consider your options. but yeah, sentries sent, sentries is, neat for that as well. But like, yeah, like don't forget to track your errors. Dave (21:07.789) I'm giving it a look over now. I'm giving it a look over now because my immediate gut instinct was like, that server stuff, I don't need to think about that. yeah. And then I flicked straight into their product. I'm having a look at the iOS section, for example. And of course it's got crash reporting. Daniel (21:29.058) That's my major, that's my one gripe with Sentry actually. Their whole Apple specific thing, their SDK is like completely written in Objective -C still. Like they're slowly traversing towards Swift and whatever. But because it is very much geared towards like running on an iPhone or an iPad or a Mac or TV OS or whatever, like you can't just run it in Vapor. Dave (21:43.671) Ha ha. Yep. Daniel (21:58.626) There's no official Swift -only SDK that you can include in Vapor, which is sad. Dave (21:59.105) Right. Dave (22:03.21) Yeah. So you've had to use something else and then route the errors through it. Is that right? Got it. Got it. But yeah, now I'm looking and I'm going, right, okay, I could actually use this and the pricing. Bear in mind, we're not sponsored by Sentry, so please don't anybody get the wrong idea from me looking at this. Well, yeah, exactly. wouldn't be looking at it. I wouldn't be adverse because it looks really useful. Daniel (22:10.412) Now, the server is still continuing to send emails on exception, basically. Daniel (22:24.097) Not yet. Dave (22:32.491) They've got a solo div plan that's free, one user with error monitoring, tracing alerts and notifications on email. That looks like something. Daniel (22:41.24) turn off those emails, they are depressing. It's just like, you're deep in a problem. Like you have way too much work anyway. And then an email arrives, it's like, you broke something. It's like, no. Dave (22:50.443) Yeah, no, no thanks. But I'm looking down at it I'm like, yeah, that's probably something I should look at to be honest with you. So yeah, maybe this is gonna go on my to -do list that I actually plugged this in because at the moment I like crash and error reporting for me is just relying on what comes through in App Store Connect. Cause I kind of needed to minimize the problem. It's not, yeah. Daniel (23:10.786) which is not too bad. It could be better, but it is not too bad. also, because you don't need to care about symbolication, because you're all in Xcode. So that is actually a huge advantage. You don't need to upload a symbolication file to Sentry if you're just using Xcode or stuff like Dave (23:21.815) Mm -hmm. Yep. Dave (23:32.393) Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, honestly, I think this is something I may, may give a bit of a, a bit of time to, because it's a blind spot and, you know, I can ignore that in a lot of ways continually and just sort of go, well, okay, people will tell me. but, you know, we all know that that, runs out of road after a while. And certainly if I want to make what I'm doing, indie wise, more robust. and a better actual business. is the sort of thing I should be thinking more about in time. So that's something else, Daniel. think we talk a lot about the stuff I work on on this show and stuff you work on and the rest of it, but I have to sort of reflect that my apps at the moment only represent a bit of a hobby business in terms of income, in terms of what they're doing. I want them to be more. But if I'm honest, Although I'm making reasonable money from the app store these days, know, it's a clocks out to on average somewhere around four or $500 US a month that I'm, I'm, earning, which is not to be sniffed at. It's still at that level of scale where, you you talked about milestones. I'm, I'm, I'm at the, I'm almost at milestone one still in a lot of ways with, with what I do. but Yeah, this is the sort of thing that, you know, clearly will be more useful for me to sort of bring in and help guide towards those bigger milestones as well. So, yeah, Sentry looks cool. But yeah, I kind of wanted to talk a bit about my views with where I'm going in that sense, actually, if that's all right. Daniel (25:23.832) Please, like with with Govj? Dave (25:27.465) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and this isn't in our show notes. So feel like I'm going off script, but that's, that's allowed. This is a conversation and you know, if we get too robotic about show notes, that's not going to be good for anybody listening. But anyway, what, where am I at? So I've take took a bit of a step back, maybe about a week ago and I had everything in my head. in terms of, like I want to do this. I want to do that. I've got the VJ app. I'm currently working on updating that effects screen bit by bit. I've actually had a few issues with iOS 18. That's kind of bogged me down in the last few days. but everything was in my head and I've got, I've got go VJ pro, which is the, the, the, vision of a, a, a much more involved, iPad and eventually Mac version of the app. meanwhile, I've also got people on Instagram every time I post about the app, pinging me and saying, Hey, does it work on Android? Of course it doesn't. so everything's been all in my head and I've been looking and going, well, where am I actually taking this? What am I doing? And if I looked to the side of me, I've got a whiteboard and I sketched everything out. and I've, I've kind of boxed things off. If I give you a bit of a read down here for the rest of this year, I'm planning to ship this update that improves the effects loading. that's priority number one, get that out the way along with that though. What I'm going to do is take stock of, my ASO on the app. So I'm going to try and improve my key wording and, you know, get it in front of more people because as I said before, I'm earning some money, but I also have looked at my stats in App Store Connect and I feel like I could probably be getting more people through the door just with what I've got. It's not necessarily about adding new features and the pro version will be good, that is, it's not necessarily going to be the thing, the only thing that I can do here to really open this up as a better going concern. So on my list of to do's is ASO. Dave (27:54.505) It's been a long while since I've actually reviewed my key wording and that side of stuff. Along with that though, I've got other apps in the store. I've got my video to audio converter. I've got the Looper app that I made that is a real simple, simple doodad for looping videos. I've got the NDI switcher. All of those are kind of like solved problems. I don't need to iterate any new features on them. So they've got a thing where I'm going to go and check the ISO for those and actually try and improve again my funnel to the things I've already got. So this is a, if we come back to the beginning of the show where you're saying make it work, then make it good, make it fast. I've made it work. I've got apps in the store. I'm selling stuff. I'm now looking at, well, okay, can I make it good? I make it do better? than what it has been doing in that initial sense financially. Because, yeah, just do better. Just do that. So we'll see where that goes. And there'll probably be future shows where I can sort of talk about how the ASO approach that I'm taking has or hasn't worked. So that's on the list. Daniel (28:53.821) Do better Dave, do better. Dave (29:12.939) Beyond that is cranking on the pro version of the app and actually getting something to test flight at least by the end of the year. Because again, people keep asking me about that. I set this landing page. There's actually a bit of pent up expectation that something's going to drop. If I can just get a test flight version out in the next couple of months, that at least shows people I've not completely stalled on it and keeps that momentum that I started. Android, it's on the list for. next year at some point. I'm not prioritizing that yet. Daniel (29:48.46) I'm betting it will be finished before Elon Musk lands on Mars. So you got some time. Dave (29:56.001) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I got to do this in an environment that's not trying to kill me all the time. Daniel (30:02.048) Radiation, no joke, and also bad for this. Like it might make good effects though. Like you know all this radiation hitting your camera sensor. It could be a pretty cool effect. Dave (30:07.831) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It could do. It could do indeed. But does any of this make sense, Daniel? Daniel (30:16.16) I saw by the way, your, yeah, it makes definite sense. I think it's a good prioritization. And at the same time, I was like, this sounds so nice. Like, just like spending like months and months on one feature. Dave (30:32.789) It's not. Like, you don't get the wrong idea here, Daniel, right? My time is fractional AF at the moment on this stuff, right? Daniel (30:36.364) But that's the thing, like you only... It is, yes, that's the one thing. And the other thing is like, I have a full week to work on telemetry deck, like a full work week every week. You don't. Dave (30:47.915) Yeah, no, don't. And, know, my day is full with, with my quote unquote day job, which, you know, I try and give my, my full attention to my full energy too, because I actually really enjoy what I do in my day job as well. It's sort of a, an interesting place to be because traditionally I've kind of, you know, the day job is the grind I want to get away from. and the indie dev is, is then sort of fulfilling needs in that way that the day job isn't. At the moment, it kind of feels like a good, a good blend because I'm doing people leadership and engineering management effectively in my, in my day job, which borders into some similar concerns. So what you have in terms of, of, of how you're leading with telemetry day. but of course I'm playing that on easy mode because we're not a startup of the company I'm working for in my day job as a bank. you know, there's, there's, it's. It's a different, different set of concerns, but I come back to the indie div. The thing I guess I just wanted to highlight is that it's the shiny thing, right? You know, you can do these things if you have enough time and I don't. And so, you know, last month I picked up an Android device to play with. I've got all these visions of like how I'm going to bring the app over to Android as well, and potentially even make a Daniel (32:07.916) Hahaha Dave (32:16.917) a single cross -platform code base in time. But if I do that now, I won't have shipped anything to users that updates and improves their experience. These are people already paying me. I won't have delivered on the promise for setting up this pro version of the app. I'll have completely re -diverted all of my energy to something brand new. And it's just not the right play. On the one hand, all I want to do is forget everything we just spoke of it and start setting up my cross -platform stack and figuring out how I can make the video engine work in a way that I can bring to iOS and Android at the same time. It's a lot of rework. It's a lot of effort. It's the thing I really, really want to do, but I've had to look at it objectively and go, it's not the right time. you know, like next year, there'll be a point where it will feel like the right time. And these other things will have, you know, ASR I'm hoping actually increases that 500 a month up to something a little bit more substantial. Even if it just gets, you know, 30, 40 % more than what that is, I'll be happy that that'll be, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll see if it's achievable or not. And Daniel (33:31.5) That's a good goal to have though. Dave (33:40.809) Yeah, it's not the same situation as yours at all, but I'm definitely feeling that overload feeling with some of this. Like, yeah, I don't have enough time to do all the things that are in my head that I want to do, you know? And that's hard. Daniel (33:55.616) Yeah. I have this roadmap, right? And of course, every now and then you reprioritize. And there's a few of those posited notes that just like, they're just like kind of stuck to the bottom of that roadmap. And I'm come on, can I reach this at some point? So yeah, I get that. I get that very much. That's like, I mean, that's just how it is, I guess. I still think it's good to prioritize. Dave (34:15.425) Yes. Daniel (34:27.394) Yeah, I was going to compliment you on just posting every now and then a video of Govj in action, especially the new UI. I really like seeing those. The music you choose is awesome. It looks really cool. And just like I can share them and stuff like that, I think it's really cool. And you should continue doing that. Dave (34:43.342) thank you. Yep. Dave (34:50.765) I plan to, this is the other thing, right? I make an app that plays with video. actually enjoy the use of my app. That's one of the reasons I still work on it. And, I've realized in the last few months, like the more I show with that aspect of stuff, the more it kind of, it resonates with potential users and existing users and deepening that connection with the community of people who work in this space has been really, really fulfilling. Actually, I we spoke on the last show about the bioluminescence project that had all the kids using iPads, using my app. You know, and things like that come off the back of me doing social media. And that way it's been a very, very positive reinforcement sort of exercise. But I added if I thought about the bioluminescence project and how they've got it is that they've got this fleet of iPads with kids were playing. Daniel (35:20.599) Mm Dave (35:48.567) the videos they've made through my app. They route it through a Mac that's running OBS and they do that over the Wi -Fi using the network device interface stuff, the NDI network video out, right? Daniel (36:02.584) See, it's always coming back to NDI with you. It's always like, that's just like, that's, that is your whole passion in life. Dave (36:07.796) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. the linkage of these things, it opens things up, right? But it was a whole thing is if they wanted to use my app to do that a year ago, they wouldn't have been able to. They would have had to have used capture cards or had, you know, with one kid coming and plugging the iPad into the Mac through a capture interface. And then when the other one wants to play, they would have to swap it over or have multiple interfaces, whatever. So Daniel (36:15.116) Yeah. Dave (36:42.283) You know, again, it's interesting. I added that feature just because I wanted it to exist. And I knew this would, would let it connect with other software. But yeah, then seeing how other people are actually using that and applying that to these sort of scenarios. The fact that like, you know, there's a whole bunch of kids now with this memory of using my app to play with their own artwork and all of that, like that for me is like, hell yeah. That that's, that's part of what this is for, you know? And I don't even know what I'm really trying to say on this thread, if you like, other than, yeah, the social media is actually being positive. And maybe a year ago, I would have told you I hated all social media. So it's been quite interesting to see. Daniel (37:27.682) Yeah, but I love that. And also like, just like that warm feeling of seeing like someone is actually using a thing you made and it gives them value or joy or both. That's just so nice. Dave (37:38.923) Yeah, absolutely. And I think that if anything should be what a lot of indie development is about and a lot of, even a lot of startup life as well. in a sense of, if you're going to bring something new into a world that's already got a shed load of software, right? You know, there's an app for everything. There's a service for everything. So many things. quote unquote, and shitified these days. Right. But I think if you can focus back in on building things that really help people do things, that help people achieve things, you know, in a way that perhaps wasn't so easy otherwise, and you can connect with those people, then there's actually an opportunity to do something really positive and cool. And I think that's necessary. Daniel (38:33.772) Yes, I very much agree. What is also necessary is, I really want to know what you mean by gatekeeping in tech, which is the next bullet point in our notes. Tell me about that. Yeah, it doesn't sound too positive. Dave (38:47.019) Ooh, so we go from a warm and fuzzy moment into something a bit stronger. I'm not sure I want to talk about this one now. No, no, no, no, no. So. Daniel (38:56.588) Have you been gate -capped? Did you see someone being gatecapped? Well, if you don't want to talk about it, I can tell you the top 10 things I like about the new iOS. Dave (39:02.445) Somebody Dave (39:09.865) you could do, you could do. Let's touch on it very, very quickly. So I made a post about gatekeeping in tech and put it on my mustard on. I'll link it up. The long and short of it is somebody shared with me, somebody shared with me a fairly personal story. So I kind of hesitate to sort of sing too loud about the specifics, but not some vaults wise. It's a situation where a tutor had told this person Daniel (39:13.26) Yes. Daniel (39:19.773) I haven't seen that one. Dave (39:39.257) you're no good at Java. You've got no business being a dev. and, and, you know, that clearly had had an impact on that person and, and, and they're now coming into, development and mobile development and they're doing brilliantly with it. And I realized in that moment that as somebody established and senior in this situation, right. there's an opportunity for me to kind of, I guess, assert some positivity to that, right? That person who the tutor in that scenario, I mean, I reflected this straight back and said, well, yeah, that, that, that tutor had no business being a tutor, right? And telling somebody something like that. Yeah. Daniel (40:26.068) Yeah, I mean, what kind of tutor are you if you like telling your the students you're tutoring like, hey, this is you're not good. Like, of course you aren't if you are still getting getting like taught. Dave (40:35.797) No. Dave (40:40.011) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, I sort of asserted the fact that that, that, that, that tutor was, was an a -hole, and had no business doing that. And I guess what I want to just say is like, you know, we're part of a community. We're part of, a, yeah, an industry as well. We're, we're, me and you, we are working in tech people in indie developments, our people in iOS development in, in, software as a service development are. And sometimes it does come down to this. You get these attitudes with people of like, you're not good enough or because I know X, Y, and Z thing and you don't, I'm somehow better than you. and it is incredibly corrosive, incredibly toxic. And I just, I guess I kind of think anything we can do to offset that for people and to help welcome newcomers into the space, I think is, That is the white, if you like. I know I'm preaching to the converted here, but yeah, it was. Daniel (41:46.072) Yes, but still you're absolutely right. Like everything, like I consider myself a pretty good tech person. Like I'm a reasonably good programmer. can do some server stuff. I can maintain my whole computerized life pretty well, right? And everything I know, I know because I either had the opportunity to fail 15 times while learning because that's kind of how I learned. Like I take stuff apart. Dave (42:03.595) Yep. Dave (42:11.117) Mm Daniel (42:15.384) Like I just like prod things and they fail in interesting ways. Like that's how you learn. Like, so you need to fail 15 times, 20 times, 100 times, right? So either that or because someone taught me, someone was like, Hey, look at this. Like, Hey, I noticed that you are not using this very interesting tool. Would you like me to show you? And then I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, nah, I don't have the bandwidth for that. like, or I'm like, sure. Dave (42:20.001) Yes. Dave (42:36.972) Yes. Daniel (42:43.508) or what is this? And then someone shows me an interesting new shortcut, an interesting new tool, an interesting new programming language or paradigm or whatever, or recommends a really good book or whatever. like telling someone like, you're not good enough for this. Like, as long as you have a certain, like an interest, I wanted to say passion, but passion is probably too strong. As long as you're like, reasonably interested in, yeah, this tech thing. Like, Dave (42:48.171) Yes. Daniel (43:12.536) play around with it, like make all the mistakes, like make something shitty and then make it good later. Like just make it work, you know? Like that's how you get better. And telling people that because of, I don't know, like, I don't know about the person, the person that you told about, but like telling people like just because of where they come from or their gender or their sexuality or whatever, to not, that they're not able to do a certain thing or. Dave (43:20.929) Yep. Yep. That is. Dave (43:37.335) Mm Daniel (43:42.348) Like that is like so incredibly like, grinds my gears. Dave (43:48.503) Yep. There's no need. There's just no need. And the thing I see routinely is it doesn't matter your level of experience, right? You can be senior, you know, you can be very well versed in what you're doing. There's still stuff to learn, you know, and actually, again, even for somebody who's on the top of their game, having an environment where it is safe to try new things, safe to fail, you know, with what you are working on as well, is still necessary. Because again, like it doesn't change just because you know X, Y, and Z doesn't mean you don't know ABC. It doesn't mean you know ABC as well. And actually it's the same process. You've got to quote unquote, fuck around and find out sometimes before, you know, you know how these things work. and, yeah, anyway, it's just something I wanted to touch on because, it's, I'm very passionate about making sure environments I work in are inclusive. teams I have a supportive of each other and collaborative and actually extends out into what I want to see in the indie world and that side of things as well. So I guess this is a pitch to say, if you're listening to this and you feel like you need a bit more collaboration and a bit more support with what you're working on, come join our Discord. Come join our Discord. Say hello, all right? Because it's the same thing. you know, people turning up in that discord, sharing what they work on, bouncing ideas off other people. That's the world I want to see. So the more the merrier. Daniel (45:30.272) Exactly, you are good enough. You're awesome. And like if you want to try stuff, try stuff. If anyone tells you, it's not good enough, then that person is a hater. Like if that person is not paying you, like if that person is not paying you and they are telling you, it's not good enough, then that person is a hater. And if that person is paying you, they should probably pay you more. Dave (45:42.775) Yep, yep, we don't need that. Dave (45:51.361) Yep. Yep. We don't need that. Well, on all the positive vibes and I managed to switch this one round from what could have been quite a negative bit of a conversation into, this really is what I believe we need. We need more collaboration, more support, more positivity in what we're doing. But on all of that note, Daniel, I've got to get on with the rest of my day. I've got to wrap the show. So do you want to close this out? So I feel at peace. Daniel (46:25.272) I do, yeah. But, like my very favorite iOS 18 feature, this one, is the thing where if you press your volume button, it kinda like squeezes in the screen a little bit. And it is so cute, that it's so whimsy. Mm, mm, I love it. I love it. That is fantastically whimsy. Right. We should. Dave (46:31.927) Mm Dave (46:38.562) Ha ha! Yep, more whimsy, more whimsy is necessary. We should talk about those features in more depth next week though, Daniel, because I'm finding out more and more as I go along. Yeah. Daniel (46:53.558) Yes, I'm completely in agreement. By then I'll have read the iOS review by Federico Vittici. So thanks for listening. Please rate us on iTunes and YouTube. Like give us the thumbs up and like if you're really masochistic, also press that bell. Write into the chat what is your favorite iOS feature, but also write us emails at contact at waitingforreview .com and join our discord. The link is in the show notes. Dave, where can people find you? Dave (47:01.709) He Daniel (47:23.178) except in the Discord. Dave (47:23.743) You can. Yeah, so I'm just going to shout out the Instagram, I think, people can take a look at me standing in a a river. So that is on Instagram, lightbeamapps .com, D -O -T com, just spelled all as one word. And again, that will be linked in the show notes. So on your podcast player, you can just scroll down, find it, hit it. And if you've got Instagram, follow me, add me, say hello. I'm actually finding it quite a fun. social media platform these days. So that's where you can find me. But how about you, Daniel? Daniel (47:59.64) How about me? I am, as you might have heard today, I'm a bit overwhelmed. So just go to daniel at social .telemetrydeck .com and send me a picture of something that you think is nice, like your cat or your pet or a sunset or whatever. Dave (48:16.049) Yeah, I'm down with that. Awesome. Daniel (48:19.202) Fantastic. Dave, see you next week. No, actually see you in two weeks. I'm not gonna bring a microphone, I'm sorry. Dave (48:24.705) Yes, yes. That's fine. That's fine. Enjoy your holiday, Daniel. And we'll see how the shows go out. But I think we'll probably just take a break in between this one and the next. So there might be a delay, people, before the next show. But yeah, we'll be back live and kicking afterwards. So have a good one, Daniel. Take care. Daniel (48:47.501) You too. Dave (48:50.359) Bye bye. Daniel (48:50.38) Bye! Dave (48:57.056) Awesome.