Daniel (00:09) Dave, it's been a while! David Gary Wood (00:11) It has indeed! Daniel (00:12) You gotta say something. David Gary Wood (00:14) No, no, no, no, no, no, I'll just leave the odd pause in there just to crack you. So for listeners of the show who are not watching on YouTube, Daniel was not on screen and then slowly came up on the screen. He's got some sort of elevator thing going on. Daniel (00:30) Like that. the advantages of a standing desk. just appear from the bottom. David Gary Wood (00:36) Huh? Well, no, here we are. It's that time of the week again Daniel. How are you? Daniel (00:43) Yeah, it's actually almost later than that time of the week because like we moved our recording data a few days and like every day for the last four days, every day you sent me a message that was like, hey, I'm ready for today. I'm like, Dave, that's not until Saturday, my Saturday. David Gary Wood (00:51) Yes. Is it today? That was, that was the trip up, right? You said, yes, I'll see you on Saturday or something like that. And I was like, it's Saturday. It's that time. And then of course what happens is, is it Saturday for you? It's Sunday for me because time zones are a thing. ⁓ they are. And yeah. Daniel (01:17) handles are a thing apparently. So yeah, but like I've been at at a, at an expo at a, just a ex, ex, ex, like I've been an exhibitionist. think that's what they, what they, what they call that. So we had a booth and it had blinking lights and nice animated screens. And we've been telling people the story of the good book telemetry deck. So. David Gary Wood (01:24) An expo, mate. Expolyating. Awesome. Daniel (01:42) And so I wasn't able to interact with humans after, like after at the end of each day. David Gary Wood (01:46) No. Yep. Spent. Daniel (01:50) Like I had used up all my conversation juice, like still I'm pretty low on conversation juice. So if I, if I run out, I will just like give you a sign and say like, just like silently bind, just like close the connection. David Gary Wood (02:01) No, you just need to like lower yourself slowly down out of the shot and I'll be like, right, yeah, Daniel's gone now. Daniel (02:04) yeah, I can just like disappear. Yeah, but before I'm gone, we have to start. So welcome, everyone, to Waiting for a Review, a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle. Join your scintillating hosts to hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. I'm Daniel, Vibe Coder, and I'm here with Dave, Code Viber. Join us while waiting for a review. David Gary Wood (02:12) We do. We're vibing. Daniel (02:35) I'm not actually a Vibe Coder. That is a horrible world. I felt like Vibe Coder and Code Viber. David Gary Wood (02:36) haha Mm-hmm. No. Daniel (02:44) are as a nice dichotomy code viper. David Gary Wood (02:47) Yes. God, no, you're giving me flashbacks to Viper, the app architecture pattern. I have PTSD from that. So let's let's move on. Daniel (02:57) All right, One thing I did learn at this conference slash expo is like, talked to like a lot of people making apps, apps or like digital products or whatever. because like, let me take a step back for a second. I was at a, in an expo called Gitex or Jitex. don't know G I T E X and Berlin, but it's like, they have like various locations. David Gary Wood (03:15) Githex sounds better to me. Daniel (03:21) around the world. And so they were like basically an expo where like all the kinds of digital product makers could expose themselves. I'm gonna, I'm gonna milk this for the rest of the episode, I think. So like there was like big, players, like IBM, Microsoft, the German Ministry of Commerce, I don't know, but also like a huge number of like smaller businesses, startups kind of thing. David Gary Wood (03:31) Please don't. Daniel (03:44) And so they could get like a booth that's about the size of a desk and just like stand there and just tell people about their product. And so I talked to a lot of these people and of course like 90 % of people, well maybe 80 % of people have some kind of AI thing. And of those, a lot and a lot of people have some kind of chatbot thing. And so... David Gary Wood (04:02) Mm-hmm. Daniel (04:08) And then they asked me like, what, what, what do you do? I'm like, do analytics, like how people are using products and stuff like that. And they're like, can you, can you analyze the behavior of our, of our chatbot? And I'm like, I, I don't know. I don't think so. Like, would that even, how would that even work? And so like, I was actually kind of intrigued. Like how would that even work? Right. David Gary Wood (04:25) Mmm. Daniel (04:30) I talked to a few more people and, like the ideas I have so far is a is guard rails. Like basically get the transcripts, run another LLM on top of the transcripts and find out if the transfer contains anything that is like deemed unwanted, like where the bot kind of like promised free cars to customers or whatever. the other thing is, like I was, I was thinking about was like, how can I, like, can I Can I do like some kind of sentiment analysis or whatever? Or can I make the original chatbot actually send status reports back to telemetry or whatever? And be like, okay, like this is how the conversation is going. Like this is my personal, personal, this is my view of like how the conversation is going, which beats I've hit and which beats I've missed. And then there's a third one, which is, I'm blanking on the name right now, but there's a software that lots of people, who make chatbots use to basically improve, develop that chatbot. I have it open on my phone, but I don't have access to my phone right now. David Gary Wood (05:31) That route was the one that was sort of occurring to me is that with a chatbot and a conversation, especially if people are asked afterwards how well it went for them ⁓ or some other target like, you know, outcome, you know, for example, how many chats lead to a sale of X. Well, then you've got a chat log that was successful versus a chat log that wasn't. Daniel (05:43) Mm-hmm. David Gary Wood (05:57) And could you start using that to improve, you know, at how these chats actually go? You know, when we say it like this, this works really well. When this was said like that, it doesn't. you know, I mean, in much the same way as actual salespeople do, right? You know, a salesperson, when they start out in their career, it's iterative. They won't do as many sales potentially when they first start, when they will do a year or two later. And that's, you know, a personal feedback loop. Daniel (06:04) Right. Hmm. David Gary Wood (06:26) that those people go through. ⁓ But you could do this via data if you had the right means and connection. Yeah, that could be quite powerful because it's then a case of, plug this in, use it for a month, and watch your actual sales go up or whatever the outcome is. ⁓ Daniel (06:29) Mm-hmm. Yeah, pretty much. And so then someone tells me that they use to develop their chatbot, they use a tool called LangFuse, which is, hang on, I opened it up, open source LLM engineering platform that contains traces, evals, prompt management, and metrics. And then like, wait, metrics? I can do metrics. So yeah, like this is a tool that apparently many chatbot developers use. And I'm kind of like showing my, I'm showing my, David Gary Wood (07:09) Mm-hmm. Daniel (07:12) lack of knowledge here. like, want to be, I want to check this out more and see if those metrics, those traces is actually something that we can quantify and analyze and so on. And if yes, I think I'm going to talk to a few of those, few of those people, if we can basically like offer some services to them. Because like, I'm not going to be able to change the fact that everyone is using chatbots, but I mean, like. If I can offer analytics, then at least the chatbots will be less bad, maybe, hopefully. David Gary Wood (07:42) Yep. If you find the right angle on it. that's good. Right. That leads to a better outcome. And you're right. We're not going to change it right now. Like it's just saturated. And yeah, it is frustrating when you encounter one of these. like the only way to sort of get the right outcome is to keep going in loops until it bobs you over to a human. know? So actually, if I was to get you know, a good answer the first time, I probably wouldn't be too, too annoyed about that. ⁓ Daniel (08:15) Yeah. So, so that's my, my, my main takeaway from, from the, from the expo. I made a landing page for it. That's called chatbot analytics. I'm linking it in the show notes. It's like very, not very unfinished, but by the time that this show, this show goes out, like this should have a bit of, bit of content about like what I'm trying to do. And also I linked to a survey where if you have a thing that uses a chatbot, like basically asks you to give us a bit of information, just like. David Gary Wood (08:20) Mm. Daniel (08:42) Because if we make a product out of this, it has to be nice, right? It has to be helpful. David Gary Wood (08:47) Yeah, yeah. well, I'm interested to see where you take it, Daniel, and what legs it has. Daniel (08:54) Yeah. And if it doesn't have like, that's the thing, like I'm trying to gauge interest first and then spend six months developing things. But let's see where that goes. Other than that, like we had like lots of people coming up to the booth. Like I was kind of expecting to just stand there for three days and not talk to anyone. But the combination of the fact that we had actually a product that we could show. David Gary Wood (08:59) Ha Yes, rather than putting all your eggs in one basket. Daniel (09:19) And also I made this really cool animation with keynote or not any of it. It's like a really cool presentation with keynote where I just like took our default brochure, made it like with keynote, with current keynote, can give like animated backgrounds to each slide and then also make the slides loop. So I had like a pretty nice thing to throw up on the screen. And like lots of people came by and also like our position in the hall was pretty good because like we were very close to the entrance. So people weren't as exhausted and fatigued because they were like four, no, six halls, but our hall was all startups and small companies. like the regular halls, like expo halls have like, I don't know, maybe 50 big companies in them, but this one had like, I guess like 500-ish small booths. So it's good that our small booth was at the very beginning so that people were actually fresh and open. David Gary Wood (10:08) Yes. Daniel (10:09) So here we talked to a of people. A few people wanted to invest in us, but I don't think, ⁓ I mean, we can talk to them, but I don't know if big automakers are the right investors for a analytics company. We are called telemetry though, I don't know. And also like a few potential customers kind of also connected. So let's see. David Gary Wood (10:14) That's interesting. That's true. That's true. Yeah, good to get that much out of it. That's awesome, Daniel. Yeah, it looked like a fun setup as well. I've seen your video from there with Lisa again. Daniel (10:35) Yeah, pretty much. yeah, yeah. Because when Lisa and I are together, we've been talking a lot about how do we, can we do more weird fun marketing ideas together? Can we just post more on TikTok? of course, if you're in the same room, then we have more of this vibe. so we've been just creating a few TikToks and stuff. I'm going to link that in the show notes as well. David Gary Wood (10:53) Mm-hmm. Daniel (11:03) I heard it in the show and I was like, no, it's gone. Ah, there it is. Cool. Okay. It's linked. Cool. I'm sorry. David Gary Wood (11:03) You did. I've moved everything. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Now you need to do the stitched type of TikTok videos when you're not together, know, like show. Daniel (11:17) ⁓ Ooh, like a conversation but like across the... Ooh, that could work. That could work. David Gary Wood (11:22) Yeah, yeah. Showing you different locations. Cause yeah, that's kind of cool. I mean, you're, you're working hybrid, I guess for one of the right phrase. Yeah. Daniel (11:26) Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. David Gary Wood (11:33) well, speaking of conferences and things, Daniel, I want to talk about something that I spotted the other day that I thought was quite cool. Daniel (11:39) Mm-hmm. I think I know where this is going. Do tell. David Gary Wood (11:48) Yeah, yeah. So, and this, this kind of links to our previous conversation on the show about the platforms and things that I'm looking at for cross platform development. But I think I'll loop around on that. We'll do a bit of a QT, ⁓ catch up in a minute, but, the conference that I spotted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, no. We'll get there. We, yeah. the, thank you. Daniel (11:59) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, but I'm already here We've already caught up. David Gary Wood (12:14) The conference I saw was Kotlin Conf and I watched the live stream. I watched the keynotes of the live stream. And honestly, I find it quite inspirational. There's a lot within what they're doing. This is JetBrains company behind Kotlin and then all the other aspects of development that they showed off. It looks really cool. They've got A very multi-platform story for sort of Kotlin is everywhere. You know, like it's able to be on desktop, on mobile. It's running server side code if you want to. You know, all the things. And I think the reason I find this inspirational is because for me, this is what I wish Swift had gotten to. And it's not. fully the story for Swift. Yes, I know you can do Swift on the server. I know you can compile it on Windows and Linux. Yeah. I also know there's a bit of overhead with that. And it does have some edges even today. there'll be edges to Colin as well. I'm not completely delusional. But the reason I sort of found it inspirational was because the they're really thinking about that aspect. It's not an afterthought. It's not a sort of with Apple, I feel like it's kind of to the side of Swiss main purpose overall. Whereas for Kotlin, it sort of feels like it's all kind of baked in. Daniel (13:38) Mm-hmm. To be fair, just an introduction, over the last 12 months or so, Apple has tried to make Swift more independent and make it more of its own thing. It's outside of Apple's GitHub account, has its own steering committee, that kind of thing. Gone. David Gary Wood (13:48) Mm-hmm. That's true. That's very true. Yeah. And those are good moves, right? Don't get me wrong. But yeah, just the, so they showed off things like the fact that it can, you can compile Kotlin multi-platform for Mac and iOS as library, as libraries, as binaries on Linux runners. So you don't even have to have a Mac. compile those and yet you can still compile them, publish them and they can be used. Yeah. So, I mean, Mac CI runners do tend to be more expensive. So then there's a cost benefit there that businesses could look at. So yeah, that was one of the aspects. The other stuff that really inspired me was the, the, Compose Multiplatform side of things for iOS. Daniel (14:26) That is pretty cool. That is really cool. David Gary Wood (14:47) they're really going out on like, okay, now we've got drag and drop and interrupt that interrupts properly with the drag and drop interface on, iOS. Now we've got a native looking swipe to go back, like all these little tweaks that irritate you when you're working with a cross platform setup and then bringing it back to iOS. and now starting to add up and they did the same last year. And so all of that combines for me to go, Hey, that actually looks like a tooling that's going to keep up and it's going to keep trying to make that a nice experience rather than just, yeah, it works, but you damn well know it's a cross-platform thing underneath. Yeah. Daniel (15:25) You Yeah. So have you tried this or is this just like the vibe that you're getting so far? Like just like to. David Gary Wood (15:34) Most of this is the vibe. I'm going to come coming back to where I was at when we last spoke. So I was looking at the Qt environment, which is the long standing framework that's actually behind things on Linux like KDE, the windowing environment, a whole bunch of other things. It goes back decades. Daniel (15:45) Hmm? David Gary Wood (16:00) And I thought, cool, goes back decades, right? It's nice and stable. It is. If you're making a desktop app, I think it's everything that, um, you know, you kind of need in that regard in terms of stability and everything else. The dev experience though, for me trying to do mobile meant sort of two, two things that really sort of got to me, which was, I did not enjoy the UI language very much, which is Q, QML. Daniel (16:11) Hmm. David Gary Wood (16:29) It's just not how my brain thinks these days after several years of SwiftUI. it's like, loving this. Like I'm getting stuff on screen, but I'm not loving it. It feels like a bit of a battle. And then the other bit that was kind of the final nail was I found everything to do with like launching emulators. Daniel (16:35) Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. David Gary Wood (16:55) for Android, that was like, why is it not running? Why is it not running? Okay. It's not running because you either need to do that from the command line or you need to boot up Android, Android Studio because it can't actually link through and start itself. All right. Okay. Not a big deal, but annoying. spent a bit of time on that. And then the nail in the coffin was that my physical device. which was always working through, like when the emulator wasn't, that was working, but until it wasn't. And then it would lose connection. The only way to sort it out was to unplug and replug the phone. And the other aspect of the dev experience was there was a lot of try something, run it, and then get a runtime error. And Daniel (17:30) You David Gary Wood (17:44) Obviously after several years of type safety and everything that we get back with Xcode and Swift, was like, not loving this. This feels retrograde. So it was one of those. Yep. I needed to go there to find out. And I mean, we called out last time, right? This may be a dead end and if it is, I will just stop and reconsider. I just didn't expect to find it quite so hard. I thought the, the dead end sort of feeling would actually kick in. if it did after I'd actually got a bit deeper into setting up some of my video stuff and that aspect of things. But it was actually the dev experience itself and all of these things just added up to me sort of feeling like this doesn't feel comfy in a way that's a little bit more than just getting used to the tools. So I put it down. I already had Android Studio open because of course I needed to to run the emulators. And I picked up the KMP and CMP Kotlin multiplatform project that I've been working on a few months ago. And all of a sudden, and like a couple of hours later, I got it doing stuff that like with setting up the UI that was a bit grindy before. And it was like, oh, okay. This actually feels good. Let's keep having a hack. Let's keep going. And so that's where I'm at. KMP and CMP with Android Studio right now. And yeah, it's actually been quite a lot of fun. Daniel (19:20) nice. That sounds pretty cool. David Gary Wood (19:22) Yeah. I'm finding, that yes, there's some syntax things I've got to get used to. There's the way it actually works as an environment to get used to in terms of compose. but it's, it's so much closer to SwiftUI in terms of like the rhyme and reason of it. But, ⁓ my brain's doing that remapping sort of bit, you know, okay, that's a bit like this. That's a bit like that. Daniel (19:39) Mm-hmm. David Gary Wood (19:46) Yeah. So that's me exploring that side of things. Daniel (19:51) How does that, like, can you tell how the output will feel, like, UI-wise? because you said at the beginning, like, lots of cross-platform stuff, like, it's really noticeable, the cross-platform. Like, look at Slack on the Mac, for example. Like, how does that compare? David Gary Wood (19:56) Yeah, well, I've got it. Mm-hmm. How does it, well, I'm not deep enough with a very iOSy kind of app to really have a good gauge for that right now. ⁓ What I have noticed is that it's, it's the demo stuff and everything like that. You won't get to feel that because the demo is like. Daniel (20:15) Mm-hmm. David Gary Wood (20:27) just an animated button with a, like you press a button and an animation drops down. It's really hard to gauge any look or feel from that. And I've gone straight into building out my dashboard and UI and stuff that I've got in Govj. So again, I'm not really feeling that. But as far as I can tell from everything I've watched about it and seen about it, you can get relatively close, but I think for developers, it's still probably in that uncanny valley close. Not as much as say Flutter was a few years ago. You know, where Flutter was sort of doing the material design animations when you tap buttons and things, even on iOS. And then I think that story's moved on where they've got their own theming that is Cupertino for Flutter, which kind of tries to get quite close. CMP is trying to do the same sort of thing. So, you know, it's getting tweaked. and they're trying to dial in the animations. The stuff that sort of looks positive for me is that they've put a lot of time into thinking about how they achieve a good frame rate. Because sometimes you use these things and actually the animations are basically the same, but they're not achieving the same frame rate. So it drops out and it just doesn't feel as smooth. They've put a lot of time into actually getting as close as possible to native sort of speeds. Daniel (21:26) Mm-hmm. David Gary Wood (21:42) in that sense, because it's actually leveraging metal under the hood anyway, and they've really gone hard on making that work well. So I will let you know as I build out menus and things, know, we'll find this out. But yeah, tentatively happy. And yeah, it's quite fun. Daniel (21:49) Mm-hmm. Fair. good. Good luck. I'll be watching it with interest. At the same time, I'm still using Swift to build things that usually people don't use Swift for, which is my backend API. David Gary Wood (22:09) Mm-hmm. Yes, yes you are. Daniel (22:17) which things AKA cultured code recently have released. I mean, it was kind of open secret, but they have revealed that their new backend is also written in Swift. So now, like people are asking around like, wait, wait, what else? Who else is running their backend in Swift? And kind of lots of people are pointing at us. So that's kind of neat. David Gary Wood (22:33) Yep, that's cool. That is cool. And I think, yeah, again, not to talk down Swift and what it can do, right? Because I do really appreciate it. It's just for me, I really want to go on this adventure, find out a bunch of stuff, you know? I mean, the ultimate goal here and the reason why I'm doing it is because I want my apps to be available on more than one platform. Daniel (22:48) Yeah, like, of course. Hmm? David Gary Wood (23:00) whole bunch of reasons right. Apple's behavior has sort of led me to feeling like yeah they're another Bay Area company so you know. But really the driver for me is the amount of people I get sort of every so often coming through and seeing stuff that I post about the app and going is this on Android as well? And I have to say no you know. Daniel (23:10) Yeah, totally. No, because we hate the plebs. David Gary Wood (23:28) Yeah, exactly. And I might have had that attitude a few years ago. Like, no, I'm quite happy just having it on iOS, but like these days I'm like, how can I possibly say that my app helps anybody VJ if I don't really support the plethora of devices people can actually have? Sort of feels inequitable somehow. So yeah. Daniel (23:39) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I get that. Hmm. David Gary Wood (23:56) And course I've got my whole other plans to mess around with Raspberry Pi's and that side of things as well, so... Yeah. Daniel (24:05) Yeah, I remember. Cool. I'm looking forward to that. What else have you been doing with video mixing these days? David Gary Wood (24:10) haha well, I needed, I've had a pretty busy week outside of indie dev and inside my, my job and with life and other bits. And last weekend I ordered myself a vinyl LP by a band called Boards of Canada. It's their Campfire head phase album. And it's like a 20 year old album now. And, you know, I remember watching the video. in, I mean, it was, even have been like through real player back in 2005 or some sort of flash based thing. But I remember watching the music video for one of these songs and like just being absolutely in awe of them. And so there's a favorite song on there for me. And I was like, Hmm, I wonder if the vinyl exists. Cause I'm trying to buy vinyl of all of my favorite things. So that came, I bought that. And that came this week. So yesterday, Saturday night, me and aging VJ in middle aged and not in clubs. I put my vinyl record on, I set everything up in this room with my video mixer and my app and other bits. And I just had a bit of a play. And yeah, I'm going to link it in the show notes because that was me. Daniel (25:06) Mm-hmm. Awesome. Please zoom. David Gary Wood (25:30) playing with the pixels. Daniel (25:30) Yeah, I just saw it. I just saw it and it's like, it's really fun. Like, and it shows that you are having fun with it. And also like, it's just a cool example of how like VJing can be like a creative outlet basically. David Gary Wood (25:45) Yeah, yeah, that's it. And I think it's something that I forget about when I'm working on the app. And I think this is something that a lot of indie devs end up in, right? Is that you want to make the tool, you want to make the thing because you've got a need for it. And then before you know it, you're kind of underneath the tech stack of it and you never really come back. ⁓ Daniel (26:06) yeah. Yeah. Like I've had that recently as well. Like I was like, okay, I want to like, like improve the analytics of like telemetry deck itself. And I was like, wait, this is a like, like this user interface does everything except one one specific thing that everyone should eat. Like it just doesn't do it. And I'm like, I should maybe like, should maybe change that a little bit. David Gary Wood (26:26) Mm-hmm. Yeah. You do need to do it. think this is the thing is like, taking pause on actually. Deving and adding to then go and actually use the thing. You know, I think that's, it's pretty vital and it's obvious when you say it, but it is very, very easy to sort of lose that. And I go through phases where I lose it because I'm like, I really want to make this technical thing actually work. Daniel (26:46) Hmm. David Gary Wood (26:56) you know, and the dev problem just sucks me in. And then I get to a stage of being done. And if I'm not careful, I'll ship it without actually really giving it the testing and the putting through that it needs because I feel like I've tested it, right? You know. Daniel (27:00) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've used it in the testing environment. Yeah, I get that. I get that. Yeah. So yeah, like I'm, trying to use telemetry like a bit more for dog fooding. Like I've been doing that a lot, like more for like actually like, app analytics and stuff like that. And at the same time, at the same time, I'm actually learning. David Gary Wood (27:15) Yes, I've not used it in prod. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Daniel (27:34) like about new cool apps through telemetry deck. because like, for example, the other day, Lisa was like, hey, have you tried out this cool app from our customer that measures your VO2 max? And I'm like, my ears perk up because like, like this, this is a measure, like how good your vascular system works, cardiovascular system, I guess. And I'm like, yeah, I've been all about trying to improve that, but like I feel like biking, incredible, like a huge amount of time and energy I've spent biking in the last few weeks. And I feel like my energy and my heart and everything has improved a lot already, but I can't like, because like Apple health actually shows your VO2 max and mine is horrible. Like I might not be a sporty person, but my VO2 max is basically the level of an 80 year old. David Gary Wood (28:19) Yeah. Daniel (28:24) This cannot be. so like, and so Lisa is like, yeah, you know that, you know that Apple watch only checks that if you are running. And then I'm wait, what? I've been biking everywhere. And in the meantime, meanwhile, Apple watch, like whenever I walk somewhere, the watch says, that's basically running, but he's not running very fast. his cardiovascular health must be horrible. David Gary Wood (28:33) What? Daniel (28:48) And so what this app does, and it's too bad, I forgot the name right now. Cooper something? I'll find it later and then I'll link it in the show note. But so what this app does kind of just like coaches you through exactly the test. And I think that's called the Cooper test, like how VO2 max is measured. you basically, like it tells you like, want to warm up 10 minutes and then run 12 minutes as fast as you can. And then. David Gary Wood (28:51) We'll find out, it's okay. Daniel (29:10) that will give you an actual measure of your VO2 max. like right now I'm at a 30, which is as I said, horrible. So I will report back. I will try that out over the next few days once I feel ready for it. And then I'm gonna tell you my fantastic, incredibly improved VO2 max, which is gonna be like 32 or something probably. David Gary Wood (29:19) Cool. Well. Yeah, I don't even want to say what mine is according to the Apple watch right now. ⁓ Daniel (29:37) See? Yeah. It's like well below average for my age group, says. David Gary Wood (29:40) Yeah. Yeah, the only thing is that it's sort of consistent within itself, I guess, and for my activities don't take it outside of what it can measure. So if it goes up, at least I know that's at least kind of good, I guess. But yeah, interested to know what that app is anyway when you find it. So I can check it out too. Daniel (30:02) Yeah. That could be today's chore actually. Like I still like the idea of like giving people a tiny chore to add to their, to do while listening. Like kind of too late to do while listening, but like after listening or whatever. Like today's chore is do an exercise, like do a sporty thing. Like doesn't have to be too hard. Like stay within what is possible. David Gary Wood (30:09) Mm-hmm. If you can. Yep. Daniel (30:25) Like if you are not very sporty, like go for a nice walk. If you are sporty, but like just like need a kick in the butt, here's your kick in the butt. You can do it. Post your cool Strava and or health screenshot to us. And we will tell you that you've been, that we're proud of you. David Gary Wood (30:27) Mm-hmm. Awesome. Yes. Absolutely. Well, on that note, Daniel, yeah. Daniel (30:47) And that's today's chore. And I think, yeah, that's today's episode. David Gary Wood (30:52) So take us out, dude. Daniel (30:52) So, yeah. Did I forget anything? I hope not. No. Let's have a tiny look. No. Okay. Thanks for listening. Please rate us on iTunes and YouTube. us emails at contact at waitingforreview.com and join our Discord. The link is in the show notes. Dave, where can people find you? David Gary Wood (31:15) You can find me on Instagram. My account there is lightbeamapps.com. That's D-O-T com, all one word. How about yourself, Daniel? Daniel (31:26) Yeah, please send me screenshots of your sporty tiny chores to daniel at social dot telemetry.com on the Fediverse. David Gary Wood (31:34) Nice. Well, I think it's time to say goodbye, I'll catch you again very soon. Daniel (31:41) has been an absolute pleasure. Yeah, we'll see each other soon again. I'm looking very much forward to this. So yeah, have a great day. David Gary Wood (31:48) Catch you later, Daniel. Daniel (31:49) Bye!