dave: "We just need to start talking again. Otherwise we're going to start into show mode. That's fine."

Daniel: "Oh yeah. Am I doing like if we are like am I doing the intro like normally? If we're if we're like more like jumping into the episode more Or are we like are we talking for a minute and then i'm reading the intro? I don't know"

dave: "Yeah... I don't know. I don't know, but I'll tell you what, if it doesn't feel natural and we've just started going, let's just keep rolling and we can always come back and record the intro separately. That won't actually be too much work either, Daniel, to be honest with you. Yeah."

Daniel: "Right. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Okay, cool. Let's just, let's just keep it loosey goosey, you know, how's it going?"

dave: "Lucy, yeah, pretty good. Pretty good. Since we last spoke, I have got recording working in my NodeBase video editor. I'm pretty happy about that."

Daniel: "Nice, nice. Oh god, I love that thing so much. You've been posting all the videos and everything in our chat. Did you put them online as well? You did, right? On the Mastodons?"

dave: "Yeah. Yep. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah yeah they're on the mastodons and uh I've actually started posting to Facebook again Daniel."

Daniel: "Like Instagram Facebook or Facebook or what else threads? Facebook Facebook. Because of the video editors."

dave: "Facebook, Facebook. Facebook, Facebook. Because yeah, the VJ Visualist real-time video community never really left Facebook and Reddit and all the other places that I have. And so I've got a, not a business account, a me account, but it is full IBM apps. And I don't post anything other than stuff about what I'm working on. And yeah, that's... Essentially, if you've seen it on Masteron, I've probably seen that I syndicated it to, um, Facebook in the last couple of weeks in terms of just like taking the same thing and putting it there and then, yeah, no, as in I reflexively open up a private barrel, so come pasted in and then come out."

Daniel: "syndicated as in like automatically like does it automatically repost Probably better."

dave: "Yeah, actually what I've done is I've got a, I've got, and it does annoy me that it's on my desktop. I'm probably gonna have to figure that out, but I've got the PWA installed on my Mac and that keeps it contained. So I've used the add to doc feature for Facebook so that I'm, yeah. Yeah, so."

Daniel: "I love that feature. That's like, that's like up there with the autofill from, from SMS and autofill from email code thingy."

dave: "Yeah, that's brilliant. And I don't know, it's, yeah, Facebook is an experience. You've not been on there for a while."

Daniel: "Oh god, face. Are there just like boomers just ranting about, I don't know, what are boomers ranting? Dungeons and Dragons taking our kids?"

dave: "I have no idea. Yeah, I've got no idea. I think it's like, say I get in and I get out. There's a couple of people that it's been nice to see some of their things here and there, but I am aware that is how they get you. For anybody new to the show, I've been so vehemently against Meta and Elon's Twitter, etc. The fattyverse is home for me."

Daniel: "That's how they get you. Yeah. Yeah, for anyone new to the show, by the way, hey, welcome to Waiting for Review, a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle. Join our scintillating hosts, Dave and Daniel, that's me, and let's hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. Join us while waiting for review. I by the way, have recently taken up Instagram again, because I thought one, that's the last"

dave: "Oh."

Daniel: "where the people are that are not like going through Twitter and then Macedon and whatever, like the people I want to, I want to stay in contact with. And the other thing is, uh, we have a telemetry dagger count there. It's just like completely unused. And so I recently started posting on Twitter again, for example, today I posted on Twitter, on Instagram again, for example, today I posted a picture of my bike, my indoor bike and, um,"

dave: "Mm-hmm. Yep. Hmm."

Daniel: "And then someone tells me, people don't really post just pictures on their Instagram anymore. If you post pictures at all, and everything that is just a normal post on Instagram is now content of some sort. And so people only post pictures in their stories. But even that is too close to the content because Instagram is not the place where you go to post your private things. It's just where you consume the content. So people will actually post their pictures now these days into their..."

dave: "Oh."

Daniel: "WhatsApp stories. Like WhatsApp has stories as well, because of course, and everyone in Europe uses WhatsApp, which is horrible, but whatever. And it's also meta. So good acquisition for them, I guess. And that has stories and the people are just posting stuff to their WhatsApp stories. And that's how you find out that people are having babies or whatever traveling somewhere."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Sounds like too much effort to me. To be honest."

Daniel: "Yeah, especially because those are gone after a day. So you like, you have to open WhatsApp once a day and just like click through the stories."

dave: "Yeah. It's never once a day though, is it? That then ends up being like, I'm constantly checking this damn thing to just keep up with people. Like that's, that sounds..."

Daniel: "Yeah, I have decided I'm just not watching the WhatsApp stories. Uh, I think I have exactly two people on WhatsApp. Um, you know who you are. Hi. What's up? And, um, yeah, other than that, like most of my friends are on signal or, um, I message."

dave: "Yep. Haha, surely you mean, what's up? Yeah, yeah, actually that is me these days as well. Definitely. I've got most people close to me are on iMessage. Sorry, green bubble people. But that's kind of how it was. Yeah, yeah, I guess, but we still don't. We're not there yet. But yeah, everybody else is on signal. Signal's great. I quite like it. And"

Daniel: "Oh what the hell RCS know right?"

dave: "What else beyond that? Oh, actually, yeah. So Facebook Messenger has crypted in slightly for one of my, well, a couple of my old contacts. There are people who have just never left there. And I guess it's been quite nice to reconnect with a couple of folk. So yeah, but I like to say, Fetty versus home, you know? So never heard of it."

Daniel: "Have you ever used Trima? Threema is just an incredible conundrum of a messenger. It is a Swiss company and they set out to make the most secure and safe messenger possible. So it's incredibly encrypted and it has various features that make perfect forward secrecy possible and the people behind it seem to be very smart and they do all the right things with their algorithms. see like they've been the first ones to have like the thing where you see like a little code on the side of your chat or video call and then if you ask the other person that the person should see the same code if not then there's a man in the middle attack. Do we say man in the middle? Is it person in the middle? I don't know. And like it is incredibly secure but the thing is that app is just incredibly like it's not even badly designed. It's just so incredibly functional that..."

dave: "Yep. Ha ha."

Daniel: "It feels like a brutalist house just as an app. You know what I mean? Like it's so incredibly Swiss in that way. Like nothing is wrong. It's just like that you feel like somehow the app has edges and you wanna like don't wanna really touch the edges. Like everything is default and like nothing is optimized for like ease of use or swipey swipe or touchy touch or whatever. It's just like, yes, let us put a button there."

dave: "Yep. Yeah."

Daniel: "because we need to do something, then let's just put a button there and the button says, do the thing, and then it will do the thing. Let's not optimize for the reachability, like it needs to be secure. I'm kinda, I don't know, I don't know. That's probably not so, so people would talk more like in the back of their throat, right? Hello. Hello Ashley."

dave: "Mm-hmm. I don't root. Yeah. I'm not, you're closer than me. Somehow."

Daniel: "I don't know. I'm making fun of people with a German accent. I'm just like the most stereotypical Americans. Horrible."

dave: "Ooh, how many people can we upset in one go there, Daniel?"

Daniel: "If you are American, I'm not talking about you. But I am posting a link to threema into the show notes with threema.ch"

dave: "Yeah, it looks very interesting. I. I am. Yeah, I'm looking at it now. I sort of see a little bit of what you mean in the screenshots and stuff, although it does look quite cool and."

Daniel: "I mean, they've had like 10 years of like user interface improvement from when I last really used them. I kind of like, at one point I'd always try, I tried to push people into the one messenger and the one messenger used to be Skype maybe or before that, ICQ and, or WhatsApp or Signal or Three Mile, whatever. And now I'm like, I just have my folder of messengers on my phone. And I just have everything I think, except Facebook Messenger."

dave: "Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm kind of heading down a similar route at the moment. And I guess what's interesting to me is that I, for the people outside of say signal and iMessage, it is very much just sort of, um, chit chat, very no depth. Right. So I don't, again, I don't really trust, um, things like Facebook and that side of things, so I'm not going to give it, you know, anything that's too personal to me. Um, and that's fine. That's fine. And yeah, it's, but it's interesting how it's crept back in again recently for me after kind of very deliberately throwing it out and it did, it did start with posting more about my, my apps again to that Facebook account. It's like you sort of let the, let the door open for one thing and then it leads to these other things. Um,"

Daniel: "I get that. But I don't know how they do it though. Like everyone knows, oh yeah, meta is evil. We don't use meta apps. But then it's like, ah yeah, but you know, just a little bit, because I need to be connected to the three people that are still there. And then somehow..."

dave: "Yeah. And now I'm going to post a photo of my baby and Facebook will have that forever and be building a shadow profile on that kid and so on and so on and so on and"

Daniel: "Yeah. Like somehow they still get you and now they have like threads and we don't even get threads in the EU, but I think it's coming soon."

dave: "Yeah, I've just not bothered checking threads out. I think for me again it's been that sort of like yeah the Feddyverse is kind of home and they promised to federate, they haven't done that and I just don't trust that side of stuff interacting with my happy place if you like online."

Daniel: "Yeah. Like I said, like six months ago, I think that, yeah, they're never going to federate. Like they're never going to be properly federating. Um, and I'm still kind of, kind of happy with that, with that statement. So."

dave: "I don't think so. It doesn't, to my mind as well, it doesn't really affect too much now. Like, after Twitter, X, everything that's gone on there, people seem to still keep finding their way over to Mastodon. Certainly iOS divs and nerds of our nature, you know, sort of the barrier of entry if you like to it is. Yeah, nerds of a feather, or... there's no feather equivalent."

Daniel: "nerds of a feather."

dave: "a mastodon for an elephant mammoth thing. Um, no."

Daniel: "Not really, no. It's just the fur, I guess. Speaking of development and stuff, like tell me more about your node thing."

dave: "Ah, the recorder. Yeah. So the other night I was nearly done for the day and about to sort of go to bed. And then I was like, aha, I think I know how to solve this thing because I've been trying to set it all up. And the stack is now really simple for me to work with. There is a like a display link. If you've ever come across a display link. It is a, how do I describe a display link? You create a display link, it links to the refresh rate of the display of the device. And then it can trigger a callback. It's very old in terms of the sort of stack on iOS. It's your function that is getting called when the display link fires has to be tagged with Objective-C."

Daniel: "Nice."

dave: "with the objc I think. But what it does is it runs on the main thread. It runs, you know, if you've got a 60 Hertz refresh rate, then, you know, it runs, sorry, 60 FPS even. That's FPS. It's early here for me, my coffee's not kicked in. Anyway, yeah. So it runs at whatever that speed is, it runs on the main thread. It's exactly what you need for real-time video processing. So that sort of triggers a signal through the stack, if you like, of the nodes. And they all update, you know, however many times a second. And that gets it working in real time. And so, yeah, I've got this recorder object that sits on the end of the stack, or can be linked to any of the nodes actually. So I can say, Hey, I'm a recorder object. This is the node I want to record. And then every time that display link pulse fires through my stack of nodes that are all connected together as it were, the recorder receives a new frame and it uses an asset writer and it then goes and writes that frame to the video file."

Daniel: "Hmm. And does it then encode it in some kind of a U encoder or does that automatically happen automatically or how does that work?"

dave: "It in code happens automatically through AVAssetWriter. So AVAssetWriter just receives the image and then goes and handles everything. Yeah. Yeah, I've got a few optimizations to do. There's a bit where I'm pretty sure I'm creating an entirely new buffer each time that's getting written to."

Daniel: "That's very convenient. Nice."

dave: "that's an expensive operation and you should really just create the one buffer and then keep reusing it. So I'm going to take a look at that soon. That should probably be an easy, easy fix. And the way that manifests is it just takes a little bit longer and blocks the main thread so you get frames dropping."

Daniel: "Yeah. And how do you get video in the whole thing? Like you have like an input node of some sort. So does that use like just like video files? Because then you kind of don't need to be real time, right? So probably you don't, you have like some kind of camera input or something."

dave: "Yeah. Uh... I've not built the camera input yet, but the video files is an AV player with an appropriate way of reading about the frames as they get produced and then converting those to core images and sending them through the stack. It kind of does need to be real-time though because there could be multiple videos and so you don't want to tie the entire refresh of the stack to any one piece of media. it's gotta have its own refresh and the media is then refreshing kind of independently of that as it's got frames or within that even. Yeah, so although you could do it the way I think you were thinking there Daniel where the video would just say hey I've got a new frame go and update yeah that falls apart when there's more than one video. So, yeah. It's coming."

Daniel: "That's pretty cool. nice it's nice and it looks cool it looks cool like it needs a bit more a bit more polish on the individual notes but you got bezier curves between the notes"

dave: "I tend to call them Bezier curves but yeah got nodes between the curves between the nodes it looks quite nice I don't know what to call the editor yet but Daniel this kind of brings me to an old idea that I'm slowly reviving um in the back of my mind uh yeah so I've got this engine"

Daniel: "Nice. Okay."

dave: "that I've built this pipeline that's coming together. I'm about to completely dog food this as it were and use it within my own apps. It's going to get used in Go VJ first. So I'll rip apart the app, replace it to engine with one built with the node editor and wire it all back up to the UI. So that's cool. That then means as I update this and add new effects and stuff, I should be able to refresh Go VJs. build and kind of get a load of this for free as I iterate out, which is part of the idea as well as to you know, yeah but Yeah, so the next idea that's sort of riffing off this is I'm wondering whether there's any commercial value in the pipeline that I've built and the flexibility of the node editor for people to be able to produce their own filtering pipelines Because I can export that out as JSON"

Daniel: "Very nice."

dave: "import that back into the code and you know in theory it's actually quite a nice way of doing this stuff that other people might want to use but it would typically be other devs. So yeah I don't know whether I'm going there yet, I think I'd like to, but one of the things I'm going to do is I'm going to knock up like a landing page which we can talk about in a second actually."

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "but a landing page. But I want to knock up a landing page, have a email signup or something there for people to sort of register interest. I haven't really decided how I'm going to do that yet. And that'll be it. I'll float that. I'll try and optimize it for sort of search terms, put it out into the ether, into a few places."

Daniel: "Hahaha, ooo a landing page! and telemetry deck analytics."

dave: "Yes, absolutely. And then that will be the extent of it. I'm building this thing for me anyway, and I'm trying to add proper comments and consider things like whether things are public, private, internal, objects, methods, functions, and that."

Daniel: "Hmm. And so then basically someone could pay you and then they get, and they get your video notes editor as in like Swift SDK, basically. And then they can include it in their app. Um, you told me this before, but I'm just having, I just had this idea right now, I think, like in my mind, you should probably go even one step further and decouple the node editor from the"

dave: "Yeah. That's right."

Daniel: "the functionality that like just renders video out of multiple videos. You know what I mean? Because at multiple times in my life, because I love nodes just generally, at multiple times in my life, I've Googled and Googled and Googled and ducked like wind for just a Swift UI component or a Swift component and UI or UI kit component that will just like draw me draw nodes for me, like allow me to implement any node based UI, you know."

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "So maybe there's even, because there's even a broader use case and that will allow you to license it even more, you know? I don't know. Think about it. I'll make you a second landing page too if you want. Like one is green and the other one is, I don't know, pink or whatever."

dave: "possible. license the nodes no data for itself yeah we'll talk about that yeah that was very cool Daniel so you want to describe Phyllis Smith of the show what you actually did there while I was sleeping"

Daniel: "Yeah, of course. So Dave told me exactly this idea a few days ago and I was like, okay, you should just have like one of those static site builders. And you were like, yeah, but it's kind of hard. And I'm like, yeah, but I have a lot of experience with those now because the Telemetry Tech website is using that. And I was like, and you should just use, I don't know, you should just use Tailwind and they have like an extensive collection of just components that you can just basically copy paste into your page. And they just look really nice. And then you modify them to have the content and colors and whatever that you have. And so what I did is while you were sleeping, because it was daytime in, in Oxburgh here. Uh, by the way, winter wonderland still. So it's, it's gorgeous. Um, all that's even gorgeous, sir. I like summer, but if I have winter, then this is nice."

dave: "and heading into summer here for me in New Zealand."

Daniel: "Anyway, and so I just picked a landing page. It has, I don't know, like a hero quote and a few testimonials and it lists a few features of a software product, has a few screenshots. It probably doesn't have a newsletter subscription thing yet, but that's probably what you need for the site, like register your interest thing, but whatever, we can do that. And it has a few, it has an FAQ, I think, as well."

dave: "Yep. I'll figure that out. That'll be the least of my worries. Yep."

Daniel: "And so what I did was I just took these components, I put them into Eleventy, which is one of those static site building tools. And it's one that I have a lot of experience with. So I was just like, okay, I'm just gonna build this using Eleventy. And if you have any questions, I will be in a position to answer. And also we'll be quicker because I can just take parts from the telemetry website and also just like take my experience that I have. And then like... I didn't really want to fill everything with lorem ipsum, but I also didn't want to spend, I also didn't want to spend like ours writing your copy because you are way better at copy than I am. By the way, at some point I'm going to ask you to write a podcast ad, I think for me. And yeah, you're way better with content and copy and stuff anyway than me. So"

dave: "Yes. No problem."

Daniel: "So I was like, okay, I'm just going to put Lauren everywhere. And then also the thing that I gave you also has a documentation section because I was like, ah, it's just going to be a software product. So you need a way to just dump in marked on files and some folder, and that will be your documentation and will be nicely rendered and stuff. And so I wrote three sentences about garlic bread. And then because I used Visual Studio Code, and I actually quite liked GitHub Copilot. GitHub Copilot kind of went with it and was like, tip, giving more garlic bread stuff, but it wasn't really good. And so after just like amusing myself with this and just having a tiny bit of fun with it, I was like, okay, now I need content for the FAQ section. And so I just went to ChatGPT because I think ChatGPT is kind of a bit better at this than..."

dave: "Yep. Yes."

Daniel: "GitHub Copilot for writing text. And I was just like, OK, imagine there's a tool that is both about managing video nodes and shader nodes, but also about garlic bread. Answer the most frequently asked questions about shader nodes, but in a way that always references garlic bread in some way. And it did exactly that."

dave: "Yep. It really did."

Daniel: "Let me, let me, let me check. I have a list of features for the software. Yeah."

dave: "My favorite one, Daniel, if I may interrupt you, so my favorite one is the testimonial in the middle where it says something like..."

Daniel: "Oh yeah, because of course I had it like generate a testimonial and everything. And yeah, whatever. I don't have it in front of me, but like, if you want to read it, go ahead."

dave: "Yep. Garlic pod asset management has revolutionized our workflow, providing a seamless and aromatic experience in handling video assets. The intuitive interface and robust organization features have made project management a flavorful delight. Five stars for transforming the mundane into a garlic infused symphony of efficiency and that's from Judith Black CEO of"

Daniel: "the"

dave: "Only garlic bread fans."

Daniel: "Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that was fun."

dave: "And now I want garlic bread, Daniel reading this."

Daniel: "I was getting so hungry when I made this. It was... It was like, okay, I have a recipe for naan bread somewhere. I haven't made it recently, but yeah, at some point."

dave: "A... naan bread, not a number bread."

Daniel: "Not a number. I was going, like, I tried desperately to force in a not a number joke somewhere in there, but it didn't really fit. And I was like, okay, I'm just gonna finish this. And then I made, we have a chat with a few developer buddies and I made them choose the primary color. Like you didn't have a choice. I just made it lime green. But I mean, it's a quick search and replace lime with whatever tailwind color name you like."

dave: "Hehehe Yes. Or I'll be changing it to go VJ's accent color probably, I guess."

Daniel: "very smart idea. And yeah, have a look at it. I gave you a readme file. Like right now it's on my public GitHub because I wanted to automatically generate a page with it. But let me know if you've forked it and then I can just turn it private or something because you like, or we can leave it and make everyone look at it. But I think it's cooler if we, if no one can like just copy your page."

dave: "Yeah. Yeah, I must say, like, yeah, so I woke up the day after we'd had our chat and I'd been talking about this website stuff to, ta-da! There is a website you can just move into and start calling home for this stuff. So I was incredibly touched and very happy to have that Daniel, I really appreciate it mate."

Daniel: "Yeah, you just woke up like every day like, oh, 125 unread messages. What are the, what are the kids up to today? Like, I don't know that chat is kind of like your kids, even though you have actual kids, you know what I mean? No, you're just wise beyond your years."

dave: "That's true, yeah. So you'll chat. Yeah, I'm not that old, Daniel. I'm getting older though. Uh, um, but, uh, yeah, I'm looking at it now and I can't wait to get this all filled out. I've had a few things going on in the last day, but I will be getting into this. I can't keep saying, oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And now I've got no excuses, right. Which is great. There's a, there's a point though, right? When you're trying to go, oh, I think I want to do this, but there's this sort of kind of block."

Daniel: "Yeah."

dave: "in the way, you know, whatever that is. And then to them reach a point of like, yeah, there's really no excuse. Now I think is the best bit for me. So you've really helped me sort of leapfrog that initial thing. No, it's great."

Daniel: "Hmm. Oh, but it's also horrible. It's also horrible. Like the other day, like for about four weeks, me and Lisa, my co-founder have been talking about, we probably need to start reaching out to local app development agencies and just like who don't know us and just like begin cold outreach. And if we just do it in the local area, then it won't be as evil, right? And we were like, yeah, but we probably need phone numbers where people can call us back if it's in the local region."

dave: "Hehehe"

Daniel: "And then Lisa was always like, huh, but I don't want to give up my private phone numbers. So we can't do that. And so I just got us like, um, do you know SIPGATE? Um, I got us basically like they're a voiceover IP provider using the SIP protocol. That's where they call SIPGATE. So like you just register with them. You pay them a medium amount of money and you get like three phone numbers with a local area code. I assigned one of them to Lisa, one of them to me and one of them to our fax, because of course we are faxing. And then I basically called her from my new office number and was like, hey, and now this is your office number. Here you go. And she was happy, but she was also frustrated because now her excuse is the wrong word. Lisa, if you listen to this, I love you platonically, but come on. It was really fun removing that barrier. Yeah. But, oh God, Zipgate is horrible by the way. Like I used to use them 10, 15 years ago for just like internet telephony, right? And they used to be good and they're still like technically good, but there was so many dark patterns, like you register and it's just like, so register for free. It's so easy."

dave: "Hehehe Yeah."

Daniel: "And then you're suddenly in the, I don't know, 12 euros plan and you're like, oh, 12 euros, that's fine. But it's 12 euros per person. So now you're at 24 euros. And then you're like, oh, download our application, which you can use to make phone calls from your computer. Just download it here. Just click, click here, download it and log in. Cool, cool. Oh yeah, by the way, if you use that application, it costs you like 10 more euros per month per person."

dave: "Mm-hmm. What?"

Daniel: "Like, no, it doesn't say that. It's just a happy past just leads you to it. Now you open the application. The application is like, hi, it's so nice that you're here. Do you use any of these customer relationship management tools? So you could just click on one of them and you can integrate with your CRM. And so we do use HubSpot for our large customers. So I click the HubSpot and it has a little, the word premium next to it. I'm like, okay, whatever that is, it will surely ask me no."

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "I have now, just with activating the Houseport integration, I have now switched into the premium version, so the application will now cost me 20 euros a month, per person, of course."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Is it then I'm waiting for the punchline, which in my head is going to be, and it's annual payment that they stick you with after that."

Daniel: "The punchline is that I am completely unable. There's no user interface element anywhere. And I've looked for hours to remove all those payment options, just because I switched to the... They have a free soft phone app for Mac OS desktop. It's just incredibly hidden. So I just want to disable the premium desktop whatever app, like I cannot disable it while my free month is still running. But of course, as soon as the free month will end, they will bill me for this. And I am just like, this is such a bad experience. Like I was just like looking around and trying to get everything set up. And every single click, I was like, if I click there, will it just like, I started like."

dave: "Oh, they'll bill you. Wow."

Daniel: "not trusting anything about that website. Like I was just like, okay, this says list all the users in your organization. Like, okay, like will this cost me additionally? Then there was like a button, there's an upload a logo for your organization. I was like this convinced that just like displaying your logo would cost me another five bucks or so. And I mean, I'm fine with paying the good money for good services. Like if this ends up 25 or 30 or 50 euros a month, then yeah, fine."

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "Just the nature of how this happened and how we try to sneak in just completely rubs me the wrong way."

dave: "Yeah, that's a lot of factors, right? It's like, just be open and transparent, then I can make an informed decision, and be very clear that you actually have my consent for the thing that I'm opting into, and you're then charging me for. Like, yeah, that sounds like a bit of a... bit of a rat's nest I was going to say, which sounds like a really severe description of it, but it sounds like very tricky to navigate through. Yeah."

Daniel: "Yeah, I don't know. It's just frustrating. It was just frustrating. Anyway, I've put a link to them in the show, not just because, I don't know, maybe you want to experience that yourself. The product itself is pretty good, and I don't know of any viable contenders or whatever. I've just linked to the UK page so it's in English because most of our customers, or our listeners probably are not German."

dave: "Just double checking that that's not some sort of DartPet and affiliate link that they've roped you into, is it Daniel?"

Daniel: "that would be nice and just like have a referral or something. I don't even know if they have that. Let me have a look."

dave: "I must do, there's got to be a pyramid scheme inside of it somewhere for this sort of stuff. I'm kidding."

Daniel: "Can I? Can I, like, I'm just clicking around if I can actually. Like, no, there's no referral friend."

dave: "Refer a friend. missing a trick but no that's I mean I hope the product works as well as intended and you know it's worth all of this navigating through to then get some local business"

Daniel: "Thanks."

dave: "Yeah."

Daniel: "Um, should I, should I, should I tell you my number? So you're going to call me? Probably not. I'm going to put it on the website, but it's going to be, um, in a way that, oh yeah, if you call this number, it will only ring at certain times in the day. Whatever."

dave: "No. Yeah. But I think that's cool, Daniel. I mean, like, you know, obviously you've been in dev mode for a fair bit with things with telemetry deck, I think recently, and now this is more of a other hat moment that you've been in."

Daniel: "Yeah, I'm definitely switching hats a little bit because I think, hmm, how do I say this? I think I always wanted to have my own software development company or software company or whatever you call it, you know, like where the main thing is like you make a software product. And"

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "In my mind, it was always like, oh yeah, there's a company happening. And that means that I can just like hack on the thing. And that's really fun because I love hacking on the thing. And I say this all the time. And every time I say it, I realize that I'm still doing that, even though I profess that I have realized that it's not like this, but I have realized that it's not like this again. So again, I'm, I'm."

dave: "Ha ha."

Daniel: "re-realizing that yes, if I want to have that, if I want to have my dream, there's like stuff that belongs to that software company dream that is not the fun hacking on the stuff. It's the customer acquisition. It's the dealing with happy and not so happy customers. It's dealing with the tax stuff and it's dealing with them with just like keeping making sure that enough money is coming in so that we can actually pay our salaries and stuff like that. And I think in the past, I was sometimes too happy to let just Lisa take care of all of that and just like hack on the software. Because of course, that's the most important thing. But I'm beginning to realize, well, if the software is really cool, but no one is using it, or not enough people are using it, then it's actually not as cool. So I've kind of like, I've kind of like switched hats, as you said. And my main hat right now is the sales hat. Of course, I'm not forgetting the actual product. And of course I'm going to continue working on it, but it's like, it's not going to be the main thing in the next one, two or three months, I think. Because I would really like to this company to have more customers. And that will really do it."

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "good in the long run, I think. And I think also that the software is kind of in a good place right now. Like it's not perfect. I have like so many things that I would like to improve. But it is very usable. And usually when someone has a question, I can give them an answer that allows them to reach their goal. Maybe not in a perfect, super smooth way. But like..."

dave: "Yeah, and I think..."

Daniel: "But sometimes I kind of have to tell them, okay, you've got to use the custom queries or whatever, but usually they can reach their goal because our custom query language is incredibly powerful because it's awesome."

dave: "Yeah, and I think Daniel as well, though, this is like, there's a few things to what you've just said that are pretty important. You can be in dev mode and make the coolest, slickest, most beautiful bit of software inside its architecture and code quality is without equal."

Daniel: "And so yeah."

dave: "And yet if nobody else is using it, the only person whose life you've improved or made happy in any way is yourself. Um, and that's fine. You know, there's a time and a place for that. And I certainly do lean into that mode with, with my side projects because what your yours isn't a side project. Yours is your business. Mine are side projects right now."

Daniel: "Yeah, but the thing is, if this project, this property has to be able to pay my salary and Lisa's salary, but we're both working on this full time. So we need some more large customers. If you are a TelemetryDex subscriber, you pay 19 bucks a month. I love you for that. You are incredibly valued and this is awesome. But on top of that, we also need a few people who pay like a thousand bucks or whatever. Otherwise this is not going to work in the long run."

dave: "Yes. Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "And so that's what I have to do. Like talk to the, to the people who will spend a thousand bucks on analytics."

dave: "Yeah. Yep. And ultimately I see this, I can frame this as a sense of you're trying to make things sustainable more than anything else. And it's so that blend of different types of customers and the bigger customers, if you like, in the mix with all of your $20 a month customers and indie devs, the whole spectrum of people who use telemetry deck. That's how this becomes sustainable. Right. And uh and how you sort of reach that longer term goal I think which is the having the software business having the really cool software and having you know lots of people who's uh who their business is through what telemetry deck does are being supported by what you do um and you know I look at what you've done and you've got really bloody close to this and it seems like this is really the uh"

Daniel: "Mm-hmm."

dave: "to be wearing right now, if you like. Like you say, the software is at a level of competency where most people can get stuff done, even if it's a slightly longer route here and there. And then the defaults are very, very useful for most people as well. So it seems right. I think your time of year might be a bit awkward, like holidays and Christmas stuff sort of going on might be tricky."

Daniel: "Yeah, but that's also a good way to start slowly. You know what I mean? Like if I just like try to connect with, let's say the 15, like most important app development agencies in my city. And like if then two or three of them answer, then I'm like, that's really cool. Like maybe I can talk to them, but like, if they don't, then yeah, it's just the holiday, but they kind of can hone my approach and stuff like that. And also because the tech community in the city is pretty close knit."

dave: "Yep. through."

Daniel: "It might just be that there will be like one or two like end of year social events that I can go to that I can actually meet people."

dave: "Nice. Yeah, that's cool. That's really cool. But yeah, always, always be selling Daniel. You need to whenever you leave the house."

Daniel: "No, no, I don't want to be always be selling by the way, like, ah, because I've already realized that if I visited a social event with only the intention of selling something to people, then I'm just like so cramped. And I just, ah, it feels so fake. No, I can't, I can't do that. I mean, you, you were, you were joking, I think, but, um, yeah, I know always be connecting, delighting people, whatever networking, but yeah."

dave: "Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I was, yes. Yeah, but I think, I think you, you."

Daniel: "Nothing like I can't put a price on every single social interaction. That is like the death of"

dave: "No, that would be gross. I think what I mean though is, it's like, yeah, get out there, do those, do those things. Um, and you know, where you, where your telemetry deck to shut, um, as you do. But do you know what I mean? It's like, it's like an element of, um, for me anyway, looking at that situation, it's an element of, yeah, you don't need to be, uh, fake and you don't need to be pushy. Um, but you do."

Daniel: "Of course."

dave: "you do need to stand proudly behind everything you've achieved and what you do and to, to be, you know, representing that, that side of things."

Daniel: "Yeah, that's what a few people have told me, that I can be so enthusiastic about the everything that we've built. Like, just like let other people take part in that enthusiasm is what is the advice that I heard. And so yeah, I can see that. We did cross 3 billion signals the other day, by the way. You've already seen this online, but like, I was just gonna tell you anyway, like so..."

dave: "Nice! Oh hell yeah, that's cool!"

Daniel: "At the end of July, I think, we crossed two billion, which took us a little less than a year, and now we're at half a year. So it's getting faster and faster. And I did a render, of course, because whenever I write a blog post, I take it as an excuse to fuss around with Blender more. So yeah, there's another render."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Brilliant."

Daniel: "And every time I do something with Blender, I learn something new. This is more like a simulation of particles and fluids and stuff like that. The other day, I also found out how I can import or how I can convert telemetry chart data into Blender objects so that I can have a 3D chart that looks nice."

dave: "Mm-hmm."

Daniel: "And that is just like, um, that I can use as a backdrop for something, but that's also contained contains real data because then I don't have to fake it like a cool looking chart or anything. And when I do my monthly orbital survey charts, I can just like use the actual data in the, in the, in the blog post image, which is kind of cool."

dave: "Yes. Oh, that's cool. That's really cool. And that means they'll get to reflect whatever it is you're showing as well, like very literally."

Daniel: "Hang on, let me send you the act, the current orbital data thing, because it already does this. And I'm going to continue doing this. I'm just going to paste it into the show notes."

dave: "sweet. go for it I'm just booting that now on my side oh yeah that's cool that's really cool um so for the benefit of listeners that is yeah your latest orbital survey uh published November 30th we'll link in the show notes as always um but there's an image there it's your blender image with um the chart in telemetry deck colors it's nice and 3d and all of those ups and downs and comparison lines that are there are real data."

Daniel: "It's also ray traced, of course. Yeah. It does look lovely. By the way, have you seen, have you seen that? Because like I'm looking at the very page of the blog post that I wrote, but I'm like kind of still surprised that iOS 17 is now already the majority of operating systems that that's running on iPhones. And that's pretty cool because, uh, that didn't use it like that."

dave: "Of course, which makes everything better. The lighting looks lovely. Honestly."

Daniel: "It hasn't been the case with iOS 16. So like the adoption rate is way faster than iOS 16. And so that's, that's actually cool."

dave: "Yeah. Yeah that's looking very... that's very cool. That means as well that yanking the ladder up to iOS 17 is probably within reach for a few types of apps soon. Certainly it feels like probably by 2024, January sort of time, that should be a thing."

Daniel: "Yeah. So as of recording... Oh yeah, yeah. Like as of this blog post, like 63% of iPhones in the telemetry data set I have to add are using iOS 17, so 63% is not bad. And also like 73% of Macs are using the new Mac OS, like Sonoma. Yeah, but that's a way less reliable source because we don't have that many Mac apps."

dave: "Wow, yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah."

Daniel: "Um, and so they probably skew heavily towards, um, very like, um, on the edge, like Mac users, you know what I mean? So I, I wouldn't be surprised if the actual number is a bit lower than."

dave: "Yep. I'm looking at the chart that you've got there now as well though for iOS and realistically if you look at this like 63% iOS 17 or so, 63, 65, 33% iOS 16 and the rest is negligible. If you're still supporting iOS 15 it's probably worth checking your analytics because you might be able to stop."

Daniel: "Yeah, definitely."

dave: "and pull things up to 16 at least and then get the benefits of the newer APIs without having to support backwards. Yeah."

Daniel: "Right. In those charts, by the way, Dave, you can click the name of the OS and disable that from the chart. It will just be hidden. And if you hide everything except 16 and 17, it just doesn't make a difference at all. It looks the same kind of."

dave: "Mm-hmm. Right, yeah. Yeah, that's very interesting. So your iOS 15 is on 3.7% in the mix of this, and then everything else is a bit of a blend. Yeah, I mean, I need to double check what's going on. I'm still supporting iOS 15 with Govj. I get a bit torn, actually, on killing the older support now for Govj, because one of the effects of what happens to my user base... is that people sometimes dedicate devices to performance as it were with the app and so it feels a bit destructive now when I kill the older support if they're on a device that's you know no longer supported as it were so yeah I need to consider it deeply but that will probably"

Daniel: "I got that."

dave: "there's probably going to be a good point at that point to say well actually I do need to probably yank it up just to reduce my support burden as it were longer term. That's the game for me is that I like to stay on latest minus one potentially just latest depending on what's going on or where in the year it is yeah."

Daniel: "Yeah, I mean, Latest Minus One is a pretty good bet these days. Of course, if your use case varies or if you have a very specialized app, then that might be different. But for most people, Latest Minus One is the way to go."

dave: "Yeah."

Daniel: "Yeah, listen, I hear the roaring of Mimi and Momo behind me. Yeah, I close the door, but I just heard the meow and it is two minutes to their feeding time. So we might have to like wrap up at some point in the next few minutes. Oh, but I brought an outro, hang on. I'm gonna read the outro for the first time. Yeah, hang on, okay. So the outro is..."

dave: "Your cats. Okay. That's fine. Let's wrap the show then, Daniel."

Daniel: "Thanks for listening. And now I'm gonna ask our listeners to rate us on iTunes because that actually really, really helps us. So if you have iTunes open or the iTunes podcast directory, I don't know, it's probably not called iTunes anymore, but like if you rate us on there or wherever you look at your podcasts, that really helps us find, helps people find the show and that's really cool. Also, if you wanna send us an email, email us to contact at waitingforreview.com and actually reply to us. And yeah, and also find us online. Where can people find you Dave?"

dave: "As I said earlier on in the show, the Fediverse is my home, so you can find me at dave at social dot light beam apps dot com. You can also find out about my apps, of course, just on the website of light beam apps dot com. And actually, you can also find me lurking in the waiting for review Slack as well. We've got a Slack channel, a Slack setup. And again, if people email us at contact at waitingforreview.com, we can set you up with an invite for that Slack and get you in. So that's another reason for people to reach out and say hello. How about yourself, Daniel? Where are you on the Feddies and that side of things?"

Daniel: "Fantastic. Yeah, you can find me at daniel at social.telemetrydeck.com. That's like my main thing right now. Also go to telemetrydeck.com if you want really, really good privacy-first analytics. Starting it free, but going up very highly if you have like a lot of data, then you can pay me a lot of money."

dave: "premium."

Daniel: "Plus premium Pro Max."

dave: "Well, great talking to you Daniel. Catch you again next time. Take it easy"

Daniel: "Yeah, byeeeeee."