Daniel (00:02.926) I forgot to think about a weird thing to say to you at the beginning of the show. Dave (00:07.695) That's all right. Well Daniel, I can go with sonic batteries to power, turbines to speed, to the Batmobile! Daniel (00:21.87) Also, I was thinking you were going to do a Doctor Who thing because like Sonic engines, Sonic screwdriver. But yeah, Batmobile is also very good. I'm not wearing my Batman t -shirt today. I should have. Hey Dave. Dave (00:28.687) Yeah. Dave (00:36.495) I'm tempted to tilt the camera Adam West style for YouTube, but Daniel (00:40.398) hahahaha How is it going? Dave (00:46.511) Yeah, pretty good, Daniel. That's a few days after Dub -Dub and that's an interesting week actually, just seeing what's coming out. Daniel (00:57.132) yeah, totally. Like, I'm not 100 % on top of everything, but the things I've seen are really fascinating and interesting. We can totally talk about it. First of all, let's do an intro, though. Hey, welcome to Waiting for a View, a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle. Join your scintillating hosts, Dave and Danielle, that's me, and let's hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. Join us while waiting for a view. Dave (01:03.183) Yep. Dave (01:07.471) Yeah, for sure. Daniel (01:28.174) Ha, we made the intro early this time. Dave (01:31.727) We did. You got to keep me on my toes. Daniel (01:34.638) Yeah, like, just keep it fresh, keep it different, you know? Dave (01:39.183) Yeah, yeah, totally. Daniel (01:40.366) Anyway, I don't think we want to talk about every single thing about WWDC. I'm kind of unprepared for that because I haven't done any homework. But we can talk about things that especially caught our attention, I want to say. How do you like that? What's a thing that really caught you? They really stuck with you from WWDC? Dave (02:03.023) Yeah. Dave (02:08.623) That's a very good question. I think number one for me, so we've talked enough on this show and outside of this show about my sort of general, cynicism for AI and LLMs and that sort of stuff. Right. and I'm skeptical, not, not about the utility of them, but just about the, the implementations, the privacy side, all of that. And I think the thing that struck me. from this year's WWDC. Obviously this is where Apple are integrating all of this into the OS in one way or another. My cynicism sort of abated a little bit after I'd had a chance to think about it all. And I'm like, do you know what? Like some of it's really not for me, but I think they've nailed the general security approach. Like in terms of if you're gonna have it in an iOS, if you're gonna integrate these things, have Apple done it in a reasonable way? And my answer to that is yeah, I think so. I'm actually kind of excited about the fact of like the bits where they are integrating this stuff. It's adding something to the experience if you like. So on that basis, yeah. The actually I'm kind of excited about some of the AI stuff to be honest with you, Daniel. Yeah. Daniel (03:31.502) Wow, fantastic. Well, that's yeah, that is kind of congruent with how I'm feeling about about the things as well. Like, I love that, that they are trying to run as much as possible of AI stuff or I have of AI models on device, which is not something that is par for the course for other. Dave (03:52.847) Mm -hmm. Daniel (03:57.678) companies that do AI right now. And then you have a problem with like large server farms that use a lot of water and energy and stuff like that. But also you just have the privacy problem. And of course, Apple, like historically has been pretty good for privacy, which is mind blowing to me because like they are very profit oriented company, but this is one of their principles that they seem reasonably good about keeping, which I really like. But yeah, like, like, all the work that went into having models that not only fit into a phone, like size -wise and processing -wise, but then also still being able to create or get more or less good data out of it and then also having these different, I forgot the name, they have, so AI models are usually made with a bunch of, let's say, layers. And, Dave (04:54.415) Mm -hmm. Daniel (04:55.054) So what they have, what they've created is a system whereby they can slice an AI model up into its different layers and then like switch the last 10, 20, 100 layers out from one thing to the other. Like for example, if you want to send your relative an extremely cringy image of themselves for their birthday, please never do this to me, then you have. Dave (05:19.951) Hehehehe Daniel (05:20.974) the option of sending one of three different styles, art styles. And these art styles are basically just different lenses applied to the same base image creation model, which is pretty cool because that means that A, they don't have to ship three different image creation models, and B, they don't have to ship an image creation model that can do all kinds of styles. So in both of these ways, they have saved a lot of parameters, and that will. Dave (05:25.359) Yes. Daniel (05:47.79) increase or decrease execution time and decrease also like storage space that the model needs kind of. And so that is really cool. And I think like they have lots of these little tricks where they can like compress these models down in a way that they can really run it on device. And I think that is pretty awesome. And of course it doesn't have the, for example, if you have a language model or whatever, it doesn't have the discussion, the capabilities, the language capabilities of a chat GPT -4 or whatever. But on the other hand, it does run on your phone and that is pretty cool. I have no clue how the thing is supposed to work with where they reach out to their own servers. I have like, okay, I have a little bit of a clue I wanna say, but I think that's pretty, that seems like a lot of work for just for the privacy commitment. And I'm really surprised that, Dave (06:39.503) Yes. Daniel (06:44.686) a company like Apple would be like, okay, let's just build our own servers and have them be completely stateless. And also like commit to commit to like privacy reviews and stuff like that, just so that they like they like, so that they like this is a lot of overhead and work just so that they can like keep their privacy promise, which I am very surprised at. Dave (07:08.975) Yeah. Yeah, same. And I think it's a, it's not only a values driven thing, right? I think that, so for me, looking at the approach, there was a bit of me that looked at it and went, Hey, that's, that's kind of the Apple I recognize here. That's great. Right. You know, and it fits with all of that, but there is a, a, a bit of a profit motive and a sense of it's a way of doing it. That I would say only Apple can do in a lot of ways. Right. I'm sure yet. Daniel (07:23.246) Mm -hmm. Dave (07:38.383) Other companies could give it a crack in this sort of a way, but it's such an Apple way of going about doing it as well in terms of we now have this scale to do this, you know, and they've had that scale for many years now, but they've got the power in terms of the financial backing to just go and do this. The other side of it is all the pieces that they've been putting together over the last few years with their own chips and everything else. it leads to enabling something like this in a sense that are really making it work quite well. So everything we've seen about getting devices into some of the cloud services and that sort of thing. Even, I mean, this year there's been more of a Swift on server kind of mention around the edges here and there as well. Yeah. Daniel (08:31.406) I liked that. Dave (08:34.063) Yeah, yeah. And it all, it's like all these bits of the jigsaw puzzle come together and let, and it lets them execute in this way. yeah, I've got to admire that actually. There's a bit of me that sort of looked at it and went, yes, it's a, it's cool. And it's also such an apple thing. Daniel (08:53.454) Also, like all these engineers that used to work on the car stuff need to do something now. Dave (08:58.351) Exactly, exactly. And there they are piling into stateless cloud AI compute. Daniel (09:05.838) Like I wouldn't be surprised, like this is out of thin air, but there was like half a year ago or so there was like one of this, not even half a year, like three, four months ago, there was a story by Mark Gurman about the inner workings of the Apple car. Like someone basically after the project was canceled, someone kind of blabbed. And one of the details in that story was that they were trying out a prototype of the car that was just a regular car, but it was about the self -driving capabilities. And then suddenly like a group of Apple Silicon engineers shows up and they give them a box and the box kind of replaces about a hundred kilos of server hardware in the size of a Mac Studio. It draws a lot of power, but has incredible processing capabilities and does all the AI things that they need like in like a tenth of or hundredth of the power. And then... they tried out it works and then they kind of take it back with them or something like that. Like it was a very ominous story or whatever. But like, I mean, if that is, if they have such a thing, like that would be a perfect piece of hardware to kind of repurpose as, yeah, this is the AI server now. And what I also like about it, if this is true, then this also means that we're going to have more powerful end chips at some point that are more like workstation ready. And that's also a pretty, Dave (10:09.487) Right. Dave (10:20.175) Yes. Dave (10:29.199) Yes. Daniel (10:32.238) pretty nice thought. I'd like that. Dave (10:35.887) Yeah. Yeah. You can certainly see a story around a version of the Mac studio or a Mac pro even where it's a, and these are exactly what we're using for our compute. So you can have a tiny slice of that, that Apple hardware. So yeah, like I said, I don't think I certainly don't want to turn around and say, I think all of this is perfect. And. Daniel (10:53.422) Yeah. Yeah. Dave (11:05.359) you know, they've, they've absolutely nailed it. Cause obviously we've got to see, but I think the approach that they've got with all this stuff is actually about as good as we can get, you know, in terms of the privacy balance and all of that. Daniel (11:10.574) Mm -hmm. Daniel (11:16.75) Yeah, yeah, I feel so too. Also, I feel like I love that they've, that they're doing a lot of stuff with AI. And I have been doing that for a while now where they don't really say, this is AI. They just like, I don't know, they just like take slightly better photos somehow. They just like allow you to search for photos in the photo app, even though you haven't described them, stuff like that, where there is like some kind of machine learning model in the background running already. And I think that is a very cool strategy that just makes things better. Dave (11:36.335) Yes. Daniel (11:49.166) And I love that they're continuing this, like in a way they were like, for example, mail messages used to have like their just like first two lines of the email, like in the preview in the list, but now they have a summary, which is awesome. Like this is awesome smart use of on -device AI. Same with like notifications that kind of summarize or like notification entries that kind of summarize the individual notifications. Like, the group chat kind of discussed the birthday present for... Dave (11:49.679) Yes. Dave (11:58.319) Mm -hmm. Dave (12:02.927) Yep. Daniel (12:18.35) 75 messages messages and then they decided on just like I don't know giving wine Dave (12:25.007) Yep. Daniel (12:26.606) So that is really, really cool, actually. Also, for example, the stuff where they have these wallpapers made out of your images, but then they kind of remove the background and they kind of slide in the, like similar to the iPhone lock screens that we're already having, like for at least a year now, but slightly better even, I think. The separation of like object from background is getting better. And so they can do more with that, which I really like. Like I love that effect. Dave (12:32.047) Yeah, I think so. Dave (12:57.071) Yeah, same, same. It's an interesting one. I think if I think about it, the vibe I get with all of this is like Apple's approach is that they're trying to explain more about the feature itself rather than just saying we've slapped an AI sticker on it. So therefore it's better and it's shiny and you, you know, it's more like, so there's a whole load of things in the keynote where I'm looking and. Daniel (13:19.118) Yeah. Yeah. Dave (13:25.679) like you were just describing, you know, it's a feature, it's a thing. but, yeah, that they're talking about what it lets you do rather than just it's AI for AI sake. And I like that strategically. It gives Apple a lot more room to maneuver as well, because in the course of time, you know, we're certainly seeing a bit of a backlash against AI quote unquote in some areas at the moment as well. If you look at. Microsoft recall and the absolute PR mess that that's been intact circles at least. you know, so actually Apple maneuvering in this way to talk about just the features and to even go as far as rebranding AI as Apple intelligence, which is yeah. Yeah. Same. Daniel (14:10.734) That is so smart from them. Like I hate it. But I don't hate it. I don't hate it. But it's like, it's a bit of a sneaky move. But it's like such a smart move. Like there's like, you got to respect it. Dave (14:20.079) Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and, you know, we can access chat GPT via Siri and all those bits that they showed. Like it's, it's kind of there, but it's also not there in a way where if they have to reverse gear or change or steer, it's going to be a mess. It's actually quite, you know, next year there could be other providers. Daniel (14:38.702) Yeah, it feels like when they still had Google Maps as the default maps provider and the iPhone, whatever that was for, and then they kind of superseded it with Apple Maps. Kind of feels like that, you know? Like, yeah, this is our default implementation until it isn't. Although, to be fair, when I heard the rumors about them talking to various AI chatbot providers like OpenAI, Dave (14:48.751) Yes. Dave (14:54.575) Yeah, it does. Daniel (15:07.246) I was kind of hoping for a more conversational Siri altogether. Like maybe that's coming and I just haven't seen it yet or whatever. But I was like the idea of having a Siri that is as good a conversationalist as at least like a, I don't know, like an earlier version of Chatt GPT, like three, let's say. That is actually really cool. Like I don't want to have like long conversations with Siri, but like if... Dave (15:14.863) Mm -hmm. Daniel (15:36.622) If it like the more it is like serious part, but the more serious part by an LLM or the more I can just like throw whatever I want at Syria and it will mostly understand me, which right now, like me and my friends are always joking. Like, like sometimes we will just like say it to each other. Like that, that sound that Siri makes when it doesn't understand. Dave (16:00.335) Yep. Yep. Or my kids joke with the, I found some results on the web. Yeah. Which is like, yeah. And, and, and, you know, the deep. No. And the default answer to that is like, if I wanted to find it on my phone, I would have used my phone. That's why I'm asking you in the first place, you know? Daniel (16:02.862) Hmm? Daniel (16:09.206) You can use your phone to look at them. And then nothing arrives on your phone. Like when you ask a home port or something. Daniel (16:23.182) Yeah. So like, okay. I'm like fine about web results, not being summarized or whatever. Like, let's just like, okay, whatever. Like Siri can just tell me I can't do that, which I will, I would be fine with that. Like it doesn't have to be a knowledge base, even though it kind of should be, but like, Hey device, I am going to bed. So turn on, turn off all the lights. Like something, something like that would be nice. less. Dave (16:33.007) Hmm? Daniel (16:53.39) less just like, I don't know, showing an activity indicator for 10 seconds and then saying like, I didn't really understand that. Dave (17:01.231) Yeah. Which just annoys you and waste your time. So yeah, I mean, yeah, I'd like it to be intelligent enough, quote unquote, intelligent enough, to, to be able to say, Hey, Siri, I'm going to bed. And then it's next response is, would you like me to turn out the lights? And that's so funny. I've just, yeah, I've got a home pod on here. No, here we go. See, this is what I'm talking about though. Daniel (17:03.413) Yeah. Daniel (17:20.334) It just answered. Yeah. Dave (17:30.895) Okay, so what did it do there? It picked it up. It said here's music for you because I'm going to bed. That's exactly what I wanted Siri. Thank you. Like there we have a live demonstration of it. Not getting it. Daniel (17:35.47) Music for you. Daniel (17:43.854) That is so smart. My favorite interaction with Siri is we have HomePods in every room. We had a phase where I was kind of like super into the HomePod mini, so we kind of like have a handful of them. And so sometimes I will be on the couch in the living room and then telling Siri to turn off the lights. And then... Dave (17:57.647) Yep. Yep. Same, actually. Daniel (18:12.11) like 99, 90 % of the time, the correct HomePod will pick it up because like, and then they turn off the lights in that room. But sometimes the HomePod in Alex's room will pick it up, which is just one room off and that doesn't have any smart lights. So it will answer, certainly, which room would you like me to switch lights off and then continue to list all the rooms without me being able to interrupt it. And it's like, Dave (18:24.399) Yes. Yes. Daniel (18:38.382) we don't have that many rooms, but I've split up various rooms into various zones. So the living room has a living room, but the same room also has a zone that's just like the dining room, basically, because it's the same, but there's different lights, and I just want to call them differently. And so we list, I don't know, seven rooms. And I'm like, come on, shut up. And I'm like, stop. do you mean the living room? Stop. do you mean the dining room? Stop. do you mean the bathroom? Stop. Dave (19:08.623) it's painful. It is painful. We have a stereo pair in our living room and that works. But it amuses me when only one of them is the primary HomePod and the other one's like dumb. And it's kind of like, yeah, that guy's just there for the ride. Daniel (19:32.59) Yeah. So anyway, I'm kinda like, in my fantasy world, the home ports also get way smarter. But on the other hand, they have, they don't have like the strongest of like processors or SoCs, I guess. So I don't know if that would work with Apple's, what is that called actually? The server devices that also add like, Dave (19:41.199) Yeah. Dave (19:50.095) Mm -hmm. Daniel (20:00.91) Apple intelligence. Anyway, with those, or if Apple will just use that as an excuse to sell newer home pods, or if there's a plan at all for us, like we just have to wait like how what the series story is going to be, I think. But yeah, I'm also cautiously excited. Dave (20:02.543) Yes. Dave (20:18.255) We wanted to talk about the features we really loved. I think we've talked enough about the LLMs and the AI, but I just also want to call out what is another LLM based feature actually. And it's the Swift Assist in Xcode. That to me, as it's described at least, we'll see what the betas look like, but as it's described, that looks like exactly what I wanted Copilot to be. Daniel (20:24.91) Yeah. Daniel (20:33.806) Mm -hmm. Daniel (20:46.286) on device, trained with licensed data. Dave (20:47.663) On device, license data, can it? Yes, and can absorb enough about your project. I think the line used was it will also take the symbols from your project to feed into that model and feedback as well. That's perfect, right? I don't just want it to come up with whatever it's managed to scrape from Stack Overflow three years ago and kind of garble it into what I'm asking for. I want it to know. Daniel (20:51.438) knows a lot about Swift. Yeah. Dave (21:17.647) Hey, Dave's using all these Swift packages and actually when he says he wants to connect that node to that node or whatever it is he's done, here's some code in that sort of vein or at least a starting point, you know? Daniel (21:28.302) Yeah, I really wanted to try that out. Like I do use Co -Pilot a lot in JavaScript code and it's actually getting better and better. Like it has actually a really good overview over my very large JavaScript project, which is seriously impressive. But yeah, on device would be way better. So I actually downloaded the newest Xcode and it says, yeah, to try out that kind of code completion, you need the Mac OS 16. Dave (21:35.055) Mm -hmm. Dave (21:44.015) That's cool. Daniel (21:55.534) And I'm not installing the first beta of MechOS on this machine. Dave (21:58.319) Yeah, not yet. No. But yeah, I think we could go on about some of the other bits from Dub Dub. I think there are other things we want to talk about on the show and obviously plenty of months between now and September for new things for us to discover along the way as well. That's the other, that is something I wanted to shout out actually a couple of people who I know are... Yeah, a couple of people that we know within the indie dev scene I've spoken with have said about that feeling of, of overwhelm in the dub dub DC week with so many things being announced and all the rest of it. It is something I want to just highlight. It's like you've got time. You know, it all gets announced this week. It's all thick and fast, but like you can spend the next month. you could ignore it all the way up until sort of September time and just be across the highlights. Daniel (22:37.71) Mm -hmm. Daniel (22:45.502) yeah. Dave (22:57.359) and still probably manage her okay. You know. Daniel (23:00.398) Totally. Like that is so much better with the remote WWDCs, I think, because back when they were still in person, like you would be able to get video after a while. Like it wouldn't take super long for you to get video, but it was always, always, always, always so much better to be there in person and just like scribble down whatever you could like, like, like read what you thought was important. And then kind of, kind of directly afterwards, go to the people, to the presenters and ask them questions, because that is how you really. Dave (23:05.519) Yes. Dave (23:23.886) Mm -hmm. Daniel (23:30.254) I mean, the upside is you kind of had like some personal connections to the people, whereas like if they're just in a video, there's this kind of lesson. but yeah, the ability and, but, but yeah, that's, it has been more asynchronous. So if you're not someone who has an immediate question, you can ask in the Slack, which is very unlikely to be fair. Like it is probably, it's absolutely fine to just, I don't know, like go one video a week or whatever, or. Dave (23:58.799) Go at your own pace. Yeah. Daniel (24:00.078) or even less, like just like watch the keynote, maybe watch the State of the Union, we probably most of us did. And then like if you actually wanna work on something, then look at the video or look at WWDC notes, which is a friends project about summarizing WWDC videos, which has been so incredibly helpful every now and then because like sometimes you don't feel like. Dave (24:12.783) Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Daniel (24:27.086) scrubbing to the whole video or looking at the whole video transcript. And the WDC notes, I'm gonna put a link in the show notes, is just perfect because it allows you to just to get the gist of like, okay, this is what this video is about. And also like here are like the three most important code examples. Dave (24:48.367) Yeah, that's awesome. I need to check that out. I have come across the site before, but I've not used it in a long time. Daniel (24:57.614) Yeah, it's really nice. All right. Do you want to add like one last thing about WWDC or like should we actually because I have a thing to tell you about. Dave (24:58.127) Dave (25:09.135) Tell me about the thing. Let's leave www .dc there and go into whatever the thing is. Daniel (25:10.83) Okay. Daniel (25:17.55) All right, so as you may know, I really like sim racing and I do all my sim racing on my PlayStation. There's like, of course in the community, some people will scoff at that and be like, no, you have to use iRacing and that has to be on a PC. Otherwise it doesn't count, but whatever. Like this is what's what floats my boat. And so I spent a lot of time like in front of the TV, just like playing this game, Gran Turismo. And I also have, because... I am just that guy. I have what is called a SimRig, which is like a chair that looks like a car chair and then has like a steering wheel attached to the thing. It's actually right behind me. I can't move the camera a little bit. You can slightly see it. Yeah, that's the steering wheel. That is a Thrustmaster T300, which is actually on the lower end, like price -wise. Dave (26:00.271) Yeah, I see a steering wheel just behind you. Daniel (26:12.494) But it's still a pretty neat device. At some point, I'm going to have to upgrade it. Anyway, I have a problem. I'm in my room, in my office, but the TV and the PlayStation are in the living room, which are like, I don't know, three rooms, like two rooms down, depending on how you count rooms. Like the HomePod thinks it's like three rooms, a few zones away, right? So the Cymric chair is actually on a piece of cloth. Dave (26:27.919) Mm -hmm. Dave (26:31.279) few zones away. Daniel (26:40.302) that allows it to glide over the wooden floors that we have. And so whenever I'm like, okay, I'm gonna use the steering wheel, whatever, I just have to grab the thing and I just kind of drag it across the apartment. And then it kind of ends up in front of the PlayStation. I gotta like move the couch table away. And then there's like a tiny bit of fiddling with the cables and everything, like getting everything set up. And then you kind of sit down and it's like, okay, now I can finally play. And then of course, after you're done, you're gonna reverse the whole process because the thing doesn't fit in the living room without like all the time. It just barely fits, but like nothing will get through them. And so I've been thinking so much like how can I change the situation? So like ages and ages ago, I actually had a projector in this room and I would actually project the game, which was... a previous game actually at that time, but projected at a wall behind me. And that kind of worked, but it like, you have to have a blank wall and the quality was kind of shitty because like, I don't know, the projector was not very good, high quality. And also the wall is not completely even and you can't do anything during the daytime. And like proper, a proper projector would like be way, way expensive. And also you needed to have like a huge long cable. Anyway, so that's. Dave (27:50.767) Yes. Dave (27:59.215) yes. Daniel (28:03.534) And so recently I've been thinking, what do I do? So recently I've kind of found myself playing with a controller all the time because like, I just didn't want to drag the thing across the apartment, but that's also not so much fun, right? And so I thought about, can I buy another monitor and kind of like, like mounted on the Sim Rig, which is what some people do. But a screen is like, I don't know, 300 bucks ish maybe. if I get like not the most expensive one. And then the stand or the mounting point for this device is actually another 200 bucks or so. And then like 500 bucks for a mediocre screen. And like, but then like I could probably just should probably upgrade to a good screen that's like 700 bucks or whatever. And with that kind of money, I was like, I could buy a PlayStation VR too, which kind of solves the screen issue, right? And so I'm like, Dave (28:47.791) Yeah. Dave (28:54.703) Okay. Daniel (29:00.142) could probably like the game completely like is one of the very, very few games that actually completely supports PSVR 2. And so I've spent I spent like a day or two like or evening or two days watching YouTube videos of people reviewing Gran Turismo on PSVR 2 because I was like, I was like, okay, I'm just if I have if I had a PSVR 2, like, bring the PlayStation here, the VR here and just like leave the the the SimRig that's just in the corner here, right? And after a while I noticed every single video on YouTube that I found about PSVR 2 in general, but especially about racing, like this racing game, like every single video was about first impressions. Like I could not find a single video about someone who says, yeah, I've been using this for a while and it's still great. Like, and I follow a few J Grand Tourism YouTubers because I am that guy. Dave (29:53.199) Right. Yep. Daniel (29:59.662) And they all play with a screen. Like it might be because they're YouTubers and they want you to see their face or whatever. But still, like if it gave you like a huge advantage, all the sim racers will probably use it, right? And so... Dave (30:14.191) Yeah. Well, they'd be given notes to saying I'm on the screen right now, but normally I play in the VR rig, right? Because you'd hear if you. Yeah. Daniel (30:20.59) Yeah. And you'd see it like sometimes people are just sharing their screen recordings and you can like, you see the difference because like the screen is kind of wobbling about if you are, if you're in VR, right? And, and so I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna, I'm not gonna look for text articles. If text articles is the same, like I find, I find nothing. And I'm like, okay, this is, this is strike one and or two, I don't know. And so I'm thinking I can rent one from Grover, which is like a. Dave (30:41.391) Ha ha. Daniel (30:49.838) hardware rental store for 40, 50 bucks a month, which I could try it out. But then I kind of realized that also I actually have a PS VR one. And so I think to myself, it's in the basement, it's actually compatible with the PS5, just the quality is not as good. But I'm thinking to myself, am I actually willing to go down to the basement, grab the box with the PSVR one, bring it up and set it up? Dave (31:10.287) Okay. Daniel (31:19.918) And like my brain tells me, no, actually, no, I don't want to do that. Because the VR one has, of course, like, it's very grainy and like the pixels are about the size of a barn door. But also just with my glasses, it is like, you get a lot of chromatic aberration. Like everything's kind of rainbowy and kind of distorted. And also it's just, Dave (31:25.135) Okay, that's... Dave (31:46.447) It's no fun. Daniel (31:49.902) It's just the thing that I have with every VR headset, even the Vision Pro, which is just like, it feels kind of uncomfortable after a while. And it's just, especially like, that's one thing that the Vision Pro really does well is like the immersion modes where I'm like with. Dave (32:03.375) Yep. Daniel (32:10.414) with every other VR headset, I'm kind of feeling like I'm so disconnected from the outside world. Like suddenly a cat could come along or my wife could come along or like the doorbell could ring or whatever, or I could get a notification on my watch. And what do I do? The VR2 at least also has that kind of a pass -through mode, even though it's kind of bad, but yeah, I don't know. So I've decided, no, I'm not gonna try VR right now. If I don't know, I might rent the thing for a month at some point to try it out, but I want to explore other avenues. And then I kind of realize I have a very large screen just right here. I'm looking at it right now. I have the Pro Display XDR, so it's a high quality screen. It's very large. And I would have to move the SimRig by about half a meter or so. So that's right where my current desk chair is. And. Dave (32:45.583) You could. Dave (32:53.199) You do? Yep. Daniel (33:09.55) It doesn't sound ideal because it is a bit too high up for the SimRip because I'm kind of like down there, right? And like the angle might be wrong or whatever, but like I'm like, is it possible? Is it possible to send a signal from the PlayStation 5 to the Pro Display XDR? And so I kinda go on a internet search spree and there are... Dave (33:16.591) Yeah. Daniel (33:37.454) And so I found like four devices, I think, two of which are duplicates. So I kind of found three distinct devices which claim to support that kind of thing. So HDMI input and then output in basically like USBC plug, but it's not USBC, it's Thunderbolt. And all of them are active adapters. Like they have a chip in them that kind of transcodes the whole. video signal so they have they are supposed to kind of lag. So option one is actually using an Elgato capture card, which has the like, that is basically a device that has an HDMI in and then you kind of plug it into your computer not into the display but into your Mac. And then that allows you to live stream your game from a Mac, even though the game is on the PlayStation. Dave (34:15.791) Okay. Dave (34:26.127) Yes. Daniel (34:31.438) And that I know that it works because I used to work for Agado and I have a few of them. I don't have one here right now, I think, but I've like I've owned a few and they are very good, but they have delay. Like they have a, I don't know, let's say three, 400 milliseconds delay because they don't really care about. They care about like image quality and like capturing the thing inside the software. It doesn't need to be real time, but like for, for playing games that is completely out of the, out of the question. Dave (34:52.143) It doesn't need to be real time in terms of the latency. Yeah. Daniel (35:00.526) Then there's one device that I can probably look up the links later. One device that is multiple Reddit posts and YouTube videos have confirmed this to work, but it costs $180 US dollars and it's only available in the US. And you need. Dave (35:17.679) I think I'm wondering if you're heading in a direction that relates to some of my network video stuff. So, no, keep going. Daniel (35:25.966) Yeah, I'm actually not. I'm actually not. But that is kind of confirmed to work. I saw someone who did a video with their iPhone, and they're like, OK, so this is the device. And then on the one hand, we have the XDR. And on the other side, we have the HDMI from the PlayStation. See? See? It works. It's real time. Very cool. But it's very expensive. And I haven't found a vendor that sells this in Germany. I have found one item on eBay that is used and they still want 190 bucks. And I'm like, like at that price for a used device. I don't know. There's another vendor and they're called, I have it somewhere, Club3D. And they also sell these devices. They are more cheaper, but they have like, they have like all these different model numbers. They're like, Dave (36:06.223) Yeah. Daniel (36:24.27) I don't know, hundreds of different cables. And some of them have USB -C on the other. On the one hand, some of them have HDMI on the other. And so according to Reddit, this one, the active cable 4K60 with. Dave (36:41.599) You've got it in your hand Daniel, just so I can be clear here. You've already bought it. You've got it, yes. Daniel (36:45.134) I cut it in my hand. So someone said this is the only one that works. And so this on German Amazon was like 50 bucks. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna 50. Dave (36:55.599) What is it? It's a, yeah, yeah, no, what's the model? Daniel (36:59.246) On the, it is the HDMI to USB type C 4K 60 Hertz active cable. So this actually has a model number, but it doesn't say on the, yeah, CAC 1334. So someone, like someone said all the other CACs, 1337, 1333, and 1335, someone said they don't work, but this one does. I am. Dave (37:15.631) He he. Dave (37:22.607) huh. Daniel (37:26.606) As you're yet unconvinced because it says USB type C and not Thunderbolt. But I bought it from, because they had it on Amazon and I'm like, okay, like Amazon has a really good return policy. I'm just going to try it out. So it just arrived today. I haven't tried it out. But like, this is one of the things that I'm going to try this week. Dave (37:47.535) Awesome. Well, I'm very curious to hear how you get on because this intersects with my video work and projects a little bit. Right. In terms of if you've got that adapter that you've bought, I'm guessing it takes the HDMI signal in and hang on, it puts it back out as USB -C. Right. That's brilliant. So that's transcoding on device. But it's next door to you can get. converters in a similar fashion that presents it as a webcam input to a connected PC or Mac. Yeah. Yeah. And it's probably exactly the same sort of chip on the inside, right? And doing the transcoding and everything. So yeah, you can buy these adapters. Some of them are less than good, I'll say. Daniel (38:24.175) Dave (38:42.095) So if you've got a good one of this, it's a good brand. I'm actually keen to know because this sort of stuff is, it floats my boat. Daniel (38:47.598) Yeah, I've put a link to the vendor in the Shonos. They're called Club3D. I haven't tried this cable yet, right? So I can't really promise anything. I'm going to report back next week. Dave (38:54.607) Yes. Dave (39:04.751) Yeah, yeah, brilliant. I'm looking forward to hearing about that. But... Daniel (39:08.814) If it works, I'm going to send pictures of my setup. Dave (39:12.623) Do do. the thing I was going to say before about the, the network video stuff was actually relating to people playing with the vision pro in a similar sense, right? So it's the same problem and I've got this display, quote unquote display. It's the vision pro. I want to get my PlayStation into that environment so I can play it there. Yeah. Now with the vision pro, you don't have the option of just plugging. Daniel (39:22.894) huh. Okay. Right. Daniel (39:34.702) That would be so cool. Dave (39:42.415) something into it, right? The only option is to send it over Wi -Fi into it, as far as I know. So the direction there that a lot of people have been taking is with this NDI video -based format that I've been playing with my video mixer app and the switcher app I'm making. And what people with that problem have done is use hardware NDI HDMI converters. Daniel (40:10.606) Mm -hmm. Dave (40:10.863) that are typically used more in production environments, broadcasting environments, that sort of thing. Same thing as you've just described, though, you chuck the HDMI in, and instead of it having a USB connector to send the Thunderbolt out, in this circumstance, it transgodes it and sends it over network in the NDI protocol. So therefore, the Vision Pro can receive it. And the same thing would work for your Mac. Daniel (40:33.55) Right. Dave (40:39.279) Right, you could have an NDI display app running, could have my app running even when I've built it. Shameless plug. And you can receive that video on the display then through your Mac, as it were. So that would be more pricey. And I'll chuck the one I'm looking at into our show notes as well. It's a KiloView. Daniel (40:42.542) Mm. Daniel (41:03.63) Fantastic. Dave (41:05.039) HDMI NDI bi -directional converter so it does all the things but yeah. Daniel (41:11.79) I wonder if that will work for my problem. Dave (41:17.423) It would, but I think it's probably about five or six times more expensive than what you paid for there. So, yeah. Daniel (41:22.862) Okay, okay, fair. Dave (41:27.567) But yeah. Daniel (41:28.526) I looked up by the way, I looked at the other one that because like you said, yeah, this is more professional and like the other one that I didn't buy that's also much more professional. So I looked it up and like the US price is like just about the same. That is so unfair because only the German price is so high. Dave (41:37.423) Mm -hmm. Dave (41:43.215) Oof. Hehehe But I'm keen to hear how you get on though Daniel, this stuff interests me. That is darn expensive shall I say, I've just looked it up and it's yeah very much not cheap. Daniel (41:49.614) well. Daniel (41:53.902) Let me have a look at... Daniel (42:04.622) horn. It does not load for me. I don't know, we've already firebolted. Dave (42:09.199) Okay. So that's fine for listeners of the show. I'm seeing prices of 1700 New Zealand dollars. So roughly cut that in half for euros, Daniel ish. And then there's another one here that's selling for 979 New Zealand dollars, which is still darn expensive to solve this specific problem. Daniel (42:24.814) Mm -hmm. Ish. Daniel (42:35.054) Alright. Yeah, that is really expensive. The other one that I published, it was the SIIG. That's like $189 US. Daniel (42:50.766) Fixing the link because I broke the link. I broke the system. I broke the system. Dave (42:55.247) darn it Daniel. I think that's my phrase today is darn it. I'm not sure why that's happened. Daniel (42:57.742) You Damn, Daniel, always with the new shoes. Dave (43:05.807) You Daniel (43:11.054) There it says darn it. That's good. Yeah, leaving the video converters behind. Dave (43:20.783) Mm -hmm. Daniel (43:22.382) Do you have a story about your development? If not, then I have a story about what I've been working on the last few days. Dave (43:32.015) I'll save mine for the next show, Daniel. I'm still deep in kind of rounding out the first cut of this network video switching app, but we can talk more about that on the next show. Daniel (43:45.742) Why isn't that called the old switcheroo by the way? Dave (43:50.287) switcheroo, that could be the name. Daniel (43:53.646) No, but it has to be the old switcheroo. Dave (43:58.127) No, it's got to be the in this circumstance. It'll be the news. It will be. Well, I'm in New Zealand and not Australia, so I feel like Switcheroo will be a much more Australian kind of branding choice. Daniel (44:00.27) It's the new switcher. It's the new switcher. Yeah. Daniel (44:11.182) What's that? What's that? What's that? The New Zealand? Is it switcherivi? Dave (44:17.743) No. I don't know. It's neither Australian nor New Zealand, but part of me wants to call it the Switchy Boy. no! Yeah. Okay. Let's move on very rapidly. Daniel, tell me about your development. Daniel (44:23.374) Hahaha Daniel (44:28.814) That has different connotations Dave. Daniel (44:40.43) Right. So we've talked a lot about project management last time. And so I've started implementing some of this. And one of the things, like I started to talk to people and listening to them, like how they want to do it, like talk to Lisa and talk to our contractors, stuff like that. And that is, of course, still ongoing. But one thing that I'm already seeing is that I really want to have our roadmap. Dave (44:48.687) Mm -hmm. Daniel (45:09.486) more public. So, both internally, like, it shouldn't be just a thing on my wall, it should be a thing that is shared within our little company. But also, I kind of was like, and I talked to Lisa about this, and Lisa was like, yeah, just like, chuck it on the website as well, you know? And so, I have made, together with Lisa, a new roadmap for my wall. Like, I'm still gonna have a roadmap on my wall, because that's just really cool. And this roadmap has the word website on it, which was the previous project, and it is now finished. And also, the next thing on the roadmap is servers, because I really need to move servers. I want a new architecture, and I want it now, basically. And so, yeah. Dave (46:00.431) Okay. Dave (46:04.367) I love that. Well, you've got one on your roadmap picture you were just holding up, like, Sashita 4A4 with a big text on it. And just off the bottom, you've got one that's just AARRR, so it's just ARRRR. Daniel (46:09.39) huh. Daniel (46:18.574) Right, I'm gonna read it because if you're listening to this on audio, it doesn't make sense. So first item is multi -org, that is like struck through, stroke through, struck through, because it's already implemented and then it's website, the website is not finished content -wise, but all the tech stuff is not done. Then it says servers, so this is the server move. Then it says pricing because we're gonna have to update our pricing model at some point. Then it says Sankey. Dave (46:27.887) Struck through. Dave (46:46.031) Mm -hmm. Daniel (46:47.918) which are Sankey charts. There's a type of chart that shows you navigation through different states. And then it says R, AARRR. And then it says metrics, which is basically metric. But AARRR is the pirate analytics framework. This is not my invention or anything, but it is, if you think about analytics, Dave (46:55.183) Okay. Daniel (47:17.774) Like many people will tell you these are the things you should focus on at the beginning. Like this is a framework in which you can kind of couch your analytics experience until you know like what exactly are the, I hate to say that word, but what are the KPIs that you need to focus on. If you have no idea, take these, like this is a set of KPIs and then customize as you learn more. And so. Dave (47:35.695) Yep. Daniel (47:45.55) All five of these letters stand for different sections of your business and or app and with like some sub examples basically. So the first A is acquisition. Second A is activation. I'm going to explain what that means in a second. Then we have retention, referral and revenue. And so this is kind of from startup, from start -up work. So some of these make more sense than others, but... Dave (48:08.623) Okay. Daniel (48:13.646) Acquisition is pretty clear, like how power are actually people arriving? So interesting metrics from that would be, for example, website visitors or first app installs, and then also like signups, if you have a signup based or stuff like that. That's a kind of acquisition, but also it could be conversion to paid, but probably that's actually not, that's like revenue. Anyway, so that's kind of acquisition. Then activation is something that... some SaaS and apps are kind of doing, others think it's kind of stupid, which is like you have a potential customer, you have a user, like you gotta activate them somehow. Like you gotta give them a little bit of an, this is actually helpful to my life moment. Like you gotta activate them somehow. Like you gotta make them post their first post on Macedon. Dave (49:00.175) Yeah. Daniel (49:11.982) You've got to make them get some kind of value out of your application very, very quickly. So that's activation. Then we have referral. No, retention first. The first one is retention. It's like, OK, you've got to make them stay as your user for a while. You don't want to have them bounce immediately after they use, after they tried out your application. So you want to. how you're going to look at the fact that, I don't know, that they can come back, right? Referral is, can you make people refer to your, can you make people recommend your application? Can you make them talk about it? So you could measure, for example, are people talking about us on Reddit? You could also make a, I don't know, a sharing thing. For example, like the telemetry deck signal boosts, for example. Dave (50:04.399) Mm -hmm. Daniel (50:10.766) or the co -host has entered the, like, co -host number three has entered the office. That's actually me, hang on. Maybe you gotta say hi now. Because otherwise, yeah, okay, you don't wanna say hi. So yeah, referral and then revenue, which is like how much money are you actually making and what contributes to that? Dave (50:14.223) is that Momo? Dave (50:22.447) Hey. Dave (50:35.375) Yep, all of that makes sense. Daniel (50:36.814) And so that is R, the pirate metrics. And my idea is I would really like to have, for each of those metrics, I want to have predefined charts. Like we have now, we have charts for revenue. We have charts for retention. So I want to make that a bit, I want to like, like, make the order in which they appear kind of different. I want to explain a bit more around them and kind of help people along that journey. Like if you don't know what to do, like here are good starting points until you do. And I think that would kind of increase the value that we're giving to people with telemetry. Giving them an activation moment, of course. No, but like, yeah, I think that's actually a cool. thing to work with to really help people grow better, grow more sustainably. I gave a talk about the ARR, the pirate metrics, a few months ago, and that went over so well. It turns out that not many people know about it. Dave (51:34.255) Yeah, I like that. Daniel (51:52.334) And that's so like basically everyone in the audience was like, I didn't know, but I want to implement all of that immediately. Why isn't that a default feature in Geometry Deck? And I was like, why isn't that a default feature in Geometry Deck? Dave (52:04.079) Yeah, it should be like, I like that because I just set up a new app for the, I'm not going to call it that name again now, the NDI switcher app that I'm working on. I set up a new telemetry deck app for it so that I could wire in my settings menu and everything else as well. Cause I've got a settings menu. Daniel (52:16.014) hahahaha Dave (52:32.015) It fires off various signals when you navigate it. So as I brought that in, the first thing that happened is that all the hooks to the analytics didn't work. So I was like, cool. I just need to make a telemetry key and wire in an object for it to receive that. That's fine. And of course, when you do that right now, I get a blank app in my organization, as it were, for telemetry. That's fine. I think with a single chart maybe that sort of shows recent signals or something like that. Daniel (53:09.55) Yeah, you get the user numbers, I think. You get retention, but that is completely empty because you have nothing to retain. You should get versions, like app versions, but that's also pretty empty. And you should get languages, I think. All of which is good information, but I think we can also order that a bit better. Dave (53:18.031) Yep. Yep. Dave (53:31.407) That's it. So having the error there, or at least clickable to activate me. Like that's the other thing. You could provide it out of the box, or you could actually give the user a moment of like, you know, turning them on is almost the first act of activation itself. Like we've given you, you've got a brand new app, we're here, but hit this button to get some sensible defaults, as it were. Daniel (53:49.23) Mm -hmm. Dave (54:01.999) Yeah. Daniel (54:04.046) Yeah, that is also something to think about, like, is that going to be customizable? Is that just going to be like a default dashboard and then start with it? Or is it, I guess, like just hard coded? Hard coded is probably easier to do, but then of course it's hard coded, right? So yeah, there is a lot to think about on this. And so, yeah, I've been creating, I've been like working, like refining that roadmap. Dave (54:09.711) Mm -hmm. Daniel (54:33.582) I'm in the process of trying to communicate the roadmap with all of our collaborators. And it feels actually really good. A few people are still deep in WWDC mode. And so I'm just going to wait until they resurface and I can talk to them. But yeah, it is actually pretty cool. And so hang on, I can also send you the... Or put into the show note the link to the... to the roadmap as it is linked to now. It's just a GitHub project, but everything is now a GitHub project for me. It's hopeless. Dave (55:13.263) to kill though. I honestly Daniel, like what you're saying here though is that your your internal roadmap is now becoming your public technical roadmap as well and I love that because it's a thing that I've always kind of believed is that whatever your your internal communication is as a team, as a leader, it should stand up to the scrutiny of being external as well. Daniel (55:39.598) I'm not afraid of the scrutiny really. Like I stand behind what we're trying to do, but sometimes it feels like, I really know what's the project that I wanna work on in like three iterations, four iterations, whatever. But it is not completely thought through. I don't know exactly what I wanna do with it. And if someone sees it, then they might have a strong opinion about the direction or whatever. Hang on, Mimi, Mimi, do not eat the cable. Dave (55:43.215) Mm -hmm. Dave (55:56.271) Mm -hmm. Daniel (56:09.422) Do not eat the cable. You are not allowed to eat the cable. Dave (56:11.407) no. Daniel (56:14.926) And so I, and so then like it becomes a exercise in communication. You know what I mean? Like, hello, I haven't thought this through, but now I kind of kind of defend the idea, even though I haven't started like started working on it yet. And that's, that's something I'm afraid of. Like it hasn't, that's never happened so far. So let's see, let's see how it goes. If you look at this roadmap, like feel free to send, to send in comments, but like, Dave (56:37.615) that also. Daniel (56:43.182) Be nice, please. Dave (56:44.943) I think it's a, you can, you can still communicate that though, right? As in a sense of, you know, the roadmap is a, an expression of intent as much as anything else. And that actually the only things that are truly thought through to the depth that they really need to be, other things that are in progress or very next on the to -do list. Right. And you can also. Daniel (56:58.158) Mm -hmm. Dave (57:14.543) communicate that to anybody asking you or trying to get into that technicality with you. Like that's item number 10 on the to -do list. We're not there yet. That's brilliant feedback. And I will incorporate some of that into the view we build. But it's fair to say I've not necessarily got into the depths of all of it yet. And so I used the phrase standing up to scrutiny before. I think that's how I would stand up to that scrutiny if you like in your shoes. I would say like, yeah, if it's, if it's next on the roadmap, if it's in progress already, obviously we've got full depth of thinking about it. If it's all the way down the list, it's more of a, like I say, an expression of intent. It's a signpost that we're going to go there. but I love it. I love the fact it's public. I can see what your, your thoughts are and they're. Daniel (58:07.246) Yeah, I get that. Dave (58:12.815) They're in order. They've got a number. Daniel (58:15.502) That's good. Is this actually world writable? That would be. this? Is it world writable? Like, do people actually, like, can you, can you add a new item? You can't? Okay, cool. Like, just let the internet just dictate the roadmap. Like, what could go wrong? Next thing we're developing is Featurey Mac Featureface. Dave (58:21.999) Is it what? Dave (58:25.967) Can I change it? No, no, I don't think so. Yeah. Dave (58:37.487) Hahaha! Dave (58:42.511) Yeah, I was gonna go there telemetry McDeck face Daniel (58:45.806) You Dave (58:50.287) I think on that note Daniel, I need to be wrapping the show with you because I'm clearly going to say something close to the bone or comical with one of these phrases. Daniel (58:55.182) Yeah, that's very good. Daniel (59:03.982) Hahaha. Dave (59:06.895) So I'll let you get back to telemetry McDec face and yeah, but before we go Daniel, where can people find you? Daniel (59:11.662) Fantastic. Daniel (59:18.926) Where can people find me? Please go to telemetrydeck .com, scroll down to the footer and click on the roadmap because you can find me on the roadmap. But also go to daniel at social .telemetrydeck .com for all my social media presence, which is 90 % on Macedon and 10 % on LinkedIn right now. Yeah, Dave, what about you? Dave (59:44.271) Well, for me, you can find my apps over at lightbeamapps .com. You can find me mostly, like yourself, over on the Fediverse or Mastodon at Dave at social .lightbeamapps .com. And an exercise for the listener or viewer is you can also find me on LinkedIn. Have a go. Daniel (01:00:06.062) Please add me to your professional network. Awesome. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening. Please rate us on iTunes and give us a thumbs up on the YouTube. Send us emails at contact at waitingforreview .com. And also, comment into whatever box is below this piece of content. Comment your favorite WWDC, iOS 18, or Mac OS 16 feature. Yes, engagement. Dave (01:00:10.351) Yes. Dave (01:00:35.311) Yes. Daniel (01:00:35.502) Activation, content. Fantastic. Have a great day, Dave. Wait. Dave (01:00:37.935) We've got one more. I have one more thing. One more thing. We also, yes, it's linked in the show notes. There's an indie dev iOS orientated Discord server that we're in and you can add us in there as well. So if you're not sure how to get in touch, go down the show notes of this show, either in YouTube or in your podcast reader, hit that invite into the Discord channel and come and say hello. Daniel (01:00:41.774) One more thing. Daniel (01:01:04.898) yeah, join us. Even I am slowly getting around to actually being there and every now and then if I manage to launch Discord without it crashing my computer. Dave (01:01:13.399) Well. Daniel (01:01:14.766) Have a great day! Dave (01:01:17.775) Take care Daniel. Bye. Daniel (01:01:19.406) Byeeeee!