Daniel (00:49.058) This episode of Waiting for Review is sponsored by the concept of entropy, entropy, when we want it to be cold and dark. I tell you winter has arrived. I'm wearing my hoodie, I'm wearing sweatpants, it is cold and rainy outside. The temperature has dropped by like 20 degrees in Germany from one day to the other. Summer is really, over. Dave (00:59.978) like my soul. Dave (01:19.817) I am. We've got the opposite here. It's been popping off, mate. It's been very warm, very nice. Yeah, so... Daniel (01:33.688) Fantastic Dave (01:36.959) There we are. We are definitely on opposite sides of the world. Daniel (01:37.622) It's really good to hear. mean, at least the sun is going somewhere nice. You deserve all the sun that you can get. What you also deserve is an early intro. So hey, welcome to Waiting for Review, a show about the majestic indie developer lifestyle. Join your scintillating hosts, Dave and Daniel, that's me, and let's hear about a tiny slice of their thrilling lives. Join us while waiting for review. Dave (01:44.905) Mm -hmm. Thank you. Dave (02:09.016) Ayyyy Daniel (02:09.43) All right, are we celebrating? Dave (02:14.803) I'm celebrating a bit, yeah, definitely in that mode. Daniel (02:17.208) What are we celebrating? Brad Summer. Dave (02:22.846) Well. Dave (02:26.749) I'm probably not somebody who should be celebrating Bratz summer. No offense to anybody who is. I feel incredibly old, even touching on making jokes about Bratz summer. But no, not celebrating that. Although I do appreciate the good shade of green. Daniel (02:42.158) A very happy Brad Summer to all those who celebrate this holiest of holidays. Dave (02:50.651) Indeed, indeed. And I must say my main takeaway is that green sort of came back in fashion as a color. It's my favorite color. So green is my favorite color. It's not been a bad thing to see. But moving swiftly on. What am I celebrating? What's been going on? Go VJ my app celebrates its ninth birthday in the last week. Daniel (03:08.6) Mm Daniel (03:18.658) Ninth! That's amazing. Dave (03:19.581) So yeah, nine years ago, ninth. I mean, I should probably celebrate harder for the 10th next year, but when I realized the day was rolling round, that's why I'm going to celebrate this. I'm going to do something. And what I have done is I put messages out on Instagram, on my mailing list and all of that sort of thing. And I've asked users of my video app to send me photos, video clips, anything they're proud of, anything where they're using the app, because I'm going to put together a bit of a ninth birthday celebration reel. So that's that's what I've been up to. Yeah. They I've had quite a few lovely bits of video and photos and messages from people. So it's going to be a job for this weekend to pull all that together. Daniel (04:01.495) Fantastic. Dave (04:18.647) I still haven't decided on the music yet, that'll be very important. But yeah, it's kind of funny, know, nine years ago, yeah, what was going on for me. Daniel (04:24.753) yeah. Daniel (04:32.588) nine years though. Like, does it still have any of the original code? Like, or is it like a ship of theses where like, just like every single line of the code has been replaced? Dave (04:39.583) No, not really. Dave (04:46.225) It's a ship of Theseus for sure. There's been two distinct rebuilds since then. So I'm trying to think it through. think the original stack was Objective -C and then it was Objective -C with Swift view controllers and everything sort of moving that direction. Daniel (04:56.226) The code of Theseus. Dave (05:13.823) migrated the video engine to Swift. then things kind of stayed in a holding pattern for probably four or five years with the app in a lot of ways. I was kind of just cranking, you know, small updates, bug fixes, that sort of thing. Largely because we moved to New Zealand, right? So 2015, the app launched, 2017 was all about emigrating to another country. So. You know, that's one of the beautiful things about indie dev, I think, is that you can just kind of go, okay, I'm going to leave the product where it is. And as long you're happy about where it is, or at least, you know, there's nothing major you want to do. You can just keep the app going and the app store and, just cruise control a little bit in that sense. So that's what happened when I moved to New Zealand and then sometime. between 2019 and 2020, I started getting things together to do another rebuild because SwiftUI happened. And I was like, yeah, this has got to be moved over to that. Event, that took a little while. I'm trying to think this one through. I think it was 2022 that the big rebuild sort of went out that completely nuked the old design. And then Once more, there's been one more rebuild which we spoke all about at the beginning of this year, which was the removal of the design pattern I used for SwiftUI. Yes, thank you. Reactions on the video there as I put my thumb up, I got one of those lovely bubbles that Apple give us. But yeah, anyway, so major rebuild since then, lots of work. Daniel (07:08.313) That react was native. Dave (07:13.317) it ooo ooo yes but long story short Daniel yeah lots of rebuilds lots of that yeah Daniel (07:21.272) Yeah, I get that. Lots of work, lots of evil, like, congrats. Dave (07:28.371) Thank you. I want to just mention just briefly the one thing, the one piece of video, well photos mainly that somebody has sent through to me that I really, really loved is a group called BioLuminescence in Australia. And I'll link them up in the show notes because they, what they do is they do workshops with kids. And they have a fleet of iPads. And what they do is they get the kids to do videos and animations and they edit them in an app called LumaFusion on the iPads. And then as this is a big space that they've got to work in with a lot of outside space. And as the sun goes down, the projectors go on and they let the kids use my app on those iPads to play their animations and videos back. do a performance. Yeah, so that's probably been the highlight actually for me of this whole 9th birthday thing is to get feedback like that and to see some of those things. So yeah, shout out to the Bioluminescence crew, I will link them in the show notes. You can have a bit of bit of a look, a of a gander if you fancy. Daniel (08:28.398) Wow, that's really cool. Dave (08:55.599) sort of see what they did. It's really quite fun. Yeah. Daniel (08:56.354) Have a gander. Daniel (09:00.724) Awesome congrats. Yeah, this sounds awesome. This one's really nice Dave (09:02.174) So. Dave (09:07.581) Tell me about yours, you've got an anniversary as well? What's going on? Daniel (09:11.628) Right, Telemetry Deck has turned four years old. Not the product per se, that's a bit older, depending on where you put the actual conception date, but the company in some form. Because we had a different name in the beginning that turns out was already copyrighted by someone else. Dave (09:31.949) Mm Dave (09:38.655) Yeah. Daniel (09:39.934) The start was a bit slow, right? But we kind of decided on the 1st of September as our official birthday. And so, yeah, we have reached four years of existence, which is longer than most startups exist. So I'm actually kind of proud. Dave (09:57.277) Yeah, it's pretty rocking, mate. I remember the pre days. I do remember that sort of pre pre bit just before, because I remember speaking to you and actually getting an early demo of the SDK. We did that on a screen share. And yeah, it's been fantastic, obviously, podcasting with you. Daniel (10:00.61) and it's still very much fun. Dave (10:24.4) since then as well and getting to sort of know more about how the product's built. Daniel (10:27.79) Yeah, of course, because that's kind how we know each other because at the beginning I really wanted to go on a few developer podcasts and talk about telemetry deck. And so I was an interviewee on the previous season of Waiting for a View. And then you kind of invited me again for a second interview. And then you were like, hey, this is actually pretty fun. Can we like, should we do this more often? Dave (10:38.227) Mm -hmm. That's right. Dave (10:52.575) That second interview, Daniel. Daniel (10:54.12) and I sent you my fees and yeah. Dave (11:00.319) The second interview, you turned the tables on me. You interviewed me on my own podcast. Which, that set the scene. Daniel (11:10.07) I did, yeah, I remember. That was fun. Daniel (11:19.118) So yeah, memorable stations along the way are incorporation into a like GmbH, is just the German form of like a limited liability company, I think. And also the complete rewrite from an iPhone and Mac app into a web application because just like able to be used by more people. And also the great switching from PostgresQL to Apache Druid in the background of 2021. Well, the end of 21. I know this because I have a complete copy of all the telemetry data in various places. And it's kind of in folders, or it's ordered by, like separated by year. So I got like one folder, this is 2021. This is the Postgres database dump. Dave (12:06.27) Yep. Daniel (12:14.798) And ever since like 2022, it's like just like huge chunks of JSON files. And yes, they are encrypted and they are secure, but it's good to have backups. Dave (12:24.339) Mm -hmm. Dave (12:27.953) It's very good to have backups and yeah, it's kind of fantastic that you've got that sort of sedimentary bedrock of data for telemetry deck that goes back that far. Daniel (12:44.046) Totally. And like back in comparison to the amount of data that we're kind of dealing with now, those were like ludicrously small amounts of data, but still like it was like so hard to deal with. So I kind of Dave: (17:05.688) we're back. We are back. Daniel (17:05.688) We're back. back. Had a quick intermission. I hope we had some light jazz or something. Yeah. Dave (17:09.171) Yes. Dave (17:13.011) I'll see what I can find when I put it together. Daniel (17:17.208) But yeah, we weren't done with the topic anyway, I think. There was no big parties regarding our anniversaries, but Lisa actually sent me a huge flower bouquet and I sent her some cremeux. Is that the English word? It's like champagne, but not from the champagne region. Like sparkly wine basically, but the good one. Dave (17:28.159) Mm Dave (17:37.316) yeah. I don't know what I would call that, but that's fine. That's fine. Daniel (17:42.272) Yeah, so that is really cool. Dave (17:44.137) Yep. Awesome. Daniel (17:47.384) Do you want to talk about the new iPhones? Dave (17:53.77) OK. Daniel (17:55.256) They are so exciting. are, especially the Prophones, they're available in four fantastic, colorful, rich, vibrant colors. Dave (18:05.489) Are you sure? thought they were like beige, beige and beige this year. Daniel (18:09.214) No, they are. They are available in light grey, dark grey, medium grey, and sand grey. I'm sorry, desert sand grey. Dave (18:20.607) I have some quite strong thoughts on this. The colours that they have released the regular iPhones on actually look really quite good to me. I've yet to... yeah, all of them. And even hot pink, whatever they've called it... yeah. Daniel (18:36.066) Yes, all of them. Daniel (18:42.606) love that one, that looks so cool. And the turquoise. Turquoise? Turquoise. Dave (18:46.495) so I don't understand why they, need to distinguish the pro phones by making the pro phones boring. Like it just seems, seems like a swing and a miss. the other thing that I'm, I'm pretty aware of is every time they have an interesting color for the pro, it sells out, right? You know, the purple iPhone 14 did really well. Daniel (19:10.286) Totally. Yeah, I have the blue 12 and it's just really nice. Like, it's such a nice color. Dave (19:16.081) Mm -hmm. Yeah. So, yeah, again, I don't really understand this year's lineup in that sense. But in any case, it was very nice to see the colors they've got for the regular phone. I often have come back to a point where I wish Apple would regain some of the whimsy it kind of had with the original iMac era. That's all the sense. Yeah. Daniel (19:43.5) No, the whimsy is gone. The whimsy has left the building. Dave (19:47.409) Yeah, and that always seems like a shame. So these the colors on the regular phone feel like a toe back in the water for Apple towards a little bit more windy. I just wish it would extend across the line, you know, like I don't know if I'm going to buy a new a new Mac, you know, and it was to come in one of these more vibrant colors like don't just reserve it for the iMac. Do the laptops as well. Go all out. But this is today's Apple. Daniel (20:20.162) That's also with other other MacBook Airs in the iMac colors, because that would be consistent, right? Like if there's iPhones, but not pro iPhones in the nice colors, other colorful computers, only the only the iMacs and the MacBook Air in blue, right? Dave (20:27.732) Yeah. Dave (20:31.699) No, that's... Dave (20:35.497) That's right. is there a blue at MacBook Air? Daniel (20:41.048) There's a dark blue MacBook Air. Yeah, I ordered that for our employee the other day. Dave (20:48.733) Right. But is it really a blue color or is it just more sort of gray with a hint of blue? Daniel (20:53.684) It is exactly the same as my phone. So yeah, it's bluish. A bit darker maybe. But yeah. Dave (20:57.659) Okay, sweet. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. Dave (21:04.336) I hadn't actually clocked that they'd done that. That's cool. Daniel (21:07.368) Yeah, that's like the, I don't know if they have updated it, but it is available as an M2. And so, Dave (21:14.1) Mm -hmm. Dave (21:18.269) Nice. I think it's probably fair to say, given how we're talking about it all this year's event for the iPhone, what do you think? I sort of feel like it was a bit of a washout for me in some ways, like a bit of a mixed thing. Daniel (21:33.844) Yeah. So, like when I was a little boy, Apple events used to be like super exciting because every year, like they would like show something that was like really, really new and different. And of course those years are gone, like, right? Like, especially the smartphones, but also computers have kind of entered a very stable era where it's all about the, just like the... Dave (21:55.519) Mm -hmm. Daniel (22:01.666) diminishing returns, the slight increases, the slight improvements, which is fine, I guess. I kind of wish it would change, but on the other hand, whatever. That being said, this event this year felt especially boring somehow. I think that's because of one, the iPhone form factor as it is has been the same for ages now. The iPhone X was the first Dave (22:06.739) Yes. Dave (22:13.074) Mm Dave (22:30.451) Mm -hmm. Daniel (22:31.342) that was in this configuration. We're now up to 16. I assume there was a few S's in there. how many years has it been? Like six years at least, but maybe even eight or 10. Dave (22:39.916) Mm Six years. Yeah, just about, maybe. Maybe. Daniel (22:44.718) Well, they don't do S's anymore, right? OK, so it's like 10, 11, 12, and so on. Then I assume. I assume it's been. Anyway, it's. Dave (22:46.483) No, they don't. They don't. Dave (22:51.721) Yeah, there was a 10S. Daniel (22:55.168) tennis. Anyway, yeah, it's been a while. like the like visually what has changed was mostly like in the last few years, like the the island. I never I never can remember what the what property the island is it a magical island? Is it a dynamic island? Of course, the dynamic island has shrunk slightly. And the screen has gotten better and better. Dave (23:16.319) dynamic. Daniel (23:25.038) And also the camera, of course, has gotten better and huger. Like the three burner stove is a description that I've seen thrown around, which is very apt. So it's nice. I mean, this year, they even added a new button, right? They added the camera control button slash feature element or UI element. But still, it is Dave (23:29.543) Yes. Dave (23:45.353) Yep. Daniel (23:53.458) It's ripe for a change, especially since the rest of the phone industry is slowly honing in on foldable phones. And I get why foldable phones are still too early for Apple because Apple is the company that looks at a product category once it has matured to a certain degree, whereas foldable phones are still very much immature. The companies are still trying out so much stuff. Recently, I saw a video of like the first trifold phone, which is so awesome. Like it's so gimmicky, especially in the design that they had like a fake red leather or something on the back. But still, fantastic. We saw this in the TV show Westworld and I wanted so much. And I get that this is too early for Apple. The creases would not feel as high quality and like Dave (24:24.061) Yeah. I saw that, yes. Dave (24:35.678) Mm -hmm. Daniel (24:51.776) as Apple products are supposed to be, it will probably be too expensive. And also they couldn't make it in the, just the sheer amount of just numbers that iPhones are being produced at, right? But, so it would be nice to have like some kind of, some breath of fresh air in there. That's the one thing. The second thing is they introduced a few things as new that were just like, hey, the AirPods Max now have different colors. Dave (25:12.635) It would. It really would. Daniel (25:18.23) and they still cost the same even though they're a three year old product. That's the thing where I'm like, like at least give him a like, reduce the price slightly. I come on. And the third thing that made it kind of boring for me or not, well, not boring, but I seem to be, I seem to become a bit cynical or more and more cynical of how extremely strong the apple is pushing the health angle, right? So that whereas like the apple that we know that is right now being very, very, very, very, very strong arming like whole industries, like especially developers, but also like stuff like that. This apple is suddenly standing there and being like, we care so much about your health. Dave (26:14.665) Mm -hmm. Daniel (26:15.782) and kind of implying like, you might die if you're not wearing your Apple watch. Better wear that Apple watch, better have your phone with you or you might die. And I don't know, like, it used to be a bit cringy, but now the cringe has increased. Dave (26:36.851) The cringe factor has definitely increased. Daniel (26:40.312) That being said, I love the new Apple watch. I'm not going to get one because mine is still fine, but I love the new design. It's very cool. And also it netted me one of my most favorite mastodon posts for a while. because they introduced the Apple watch as it is more, it has a wide form factor to appear rounder. And I also have a wide form factor to be, to appear rounder. Dave (27:06.338) Hahaha! Brilliant. I'll link that up in the show notes there, Daniel. Daniel (27:15.224) Yeah. What did you think though? Dave (27:17.907) What did I think? my word. Well, a lot of the same sort of vibes, I guess, really, which is that the cringe factor definitely turned up this year. I'm not really sure why that felt that way for me. I think it's because they've not changed the format. Products to one side and Winsy and, you know, form factors to one side. The actual format of the event. could have been one from a year ago, two years ago, three years ago. The delivery, it's polished to within an inch of its eyeballs. And that's great. But I have seen other events and things with less polish that have just felt more genuine. I'm actually thinking back to, I'm thinking of some of the things like Kotlin Conf. that were more dev focused. But I don't know, I just didn't enjoy it in the same way as previous years and I think it's because not a lot of change, quite a high cringe factor, and here and there I guess just some of what they're presenting seeming like it's not really in touch with broader... market kind of considerations and that sort of thing. felt very much like I can see the divide here now, like in terms of Apple are making these very expensive products and you've got this bubble that sort of operates in this, this more, you know, higher spending demographic, if you like. And I was sort of looking and thinking, yeah, I just don't feel the broader connection in the same way as I might've done. And I don't, I don't know what I would like, but I would prefer, think I would prefer, yeah, just a bit of a change and a bit of a leaning into more of like the fun factor of what you can do with these things. Daniel (29:34.488) But that's also, think the other thing, like usually a lot of the presentations also about the features of the new iOS, right? But the thing is the features of the new iOS are not coming. They are not coming to Europe. They are not coming with the phone. And some of them might be arriving as early as October. Some of them might be arriving like by September next year. Because Apple kind of... Dave (29:42.219) Mm -hmm. Dave (29:45.565) Yeah. Yep. Daniel (30:01.668) slept on AI for a while. Dave (30:05.299) Yeah. I feel, you know, I don't particularly blame them for sleeping on AI in some ways because there's a whole element to that where it's going through a bit of a bubble and actually how this stuff is going to get used more longer term is sort of shaking out of that, I think. And that's typical Apple is, you know, wait until somebody else's kind of astroturf stuff, then come in and try and sort of say, you know, put their own spin on it. Daniel (30:34.35) I agree partially, but I have to strongly disagree on the Siri part. Like Apple owns Siri and Siri has been like bad for 10 years. And like four years ago, five years ago, like GPTs were already on the horizon. Like it was already clear. Yes, we are going to steer towards a future where like computers can like not understand, but like parse natural language way better. Dave (30:39.859) Mm -hmm. Dave (30:45.235) Yes. Dave (30:53.021) Mm -hmm. Daniel (31:04.426) And instead of like starting to build on that, they kind of hired and then fired like at least four or five different like serial directors and never really got their feet off the ground. And so that is like, just as an own goal of them basically. Dave (31:13.587) Mm Dave (31:20.937) Yeah, yeah, for sure. You could stick a GPT interface around Siri, keep all the hooks very, very the same, and deliver a much better service through Siri. That sort of seems relatively clear. So yeah, I'd agree. That's definitely a miss that's been going on with today's Apple. And I think it's just, I take all of this stuff into context and especially the way they've been behaving in the EU with the DMA and everything else there, I kind of look and I go, yeah, I described it on Mastodon as this is Apple's boomer era. Right? And please, I mean, you know, I can rag on Apple. Daniel (32:01.902) Yeah Dave (32:10.085) all of these bits and bobs but really it's coming from a place of love I guess in a sense of you know what I want better I want stuff to be fun engaging for there to be this creator aspect to what's going on with their products and there still is a whole bunch of that you know that's not just disappeared overnight we've got iPads with pencils we've got You know, the platform itself is still very, very fun to code for. The APIs and the SDK, I think I've described it in the past as it works like Lego bricks when you know what you're doing. There is still so much that I love about the platform. It's just, is hard at times to hold that against this, yeah, disconnected boomer kind of persona that the company's going through. Daniel (33:04.334) Yeah, you say that you'll say this with love, but, like I say this with love too, but Tim Cook has got to go. Like, he has had a very successful 10 years at Apple, and I think he has earned a respect for retirement because like, Dave (33:14.331) Oof, yeah. Mm -hmm. Daniel (33:29.096) as in like a tick tock development cycle where like you have the talk cycles where you just like optimize everything and just like get the last bit of performance out of things. need every now and then you need a tick cycle where you can actually, where you actually just like experiment and improve things. And Tim Cook has been amazing at getting every last, squeezing every last bit of performance and in revenue out of Apple, out of services, out of hardware, out of like keeping old Dave (33:36.479) Mm -hmm. Dave (33:45.705) Yes. Daniel (33:58.498) devices in the lineup just so they can sell them at reduced prices out of like not increasing RAM until it actually like also hinders their AI roll up and they kind of had to jump a generation of chips in the normal iPhone now. I think it's time that like someone else takes the reins at Apple who is a bit more like happy to experiment with things. Dave (34:15.486) Yes. Dave (34:25.119) I'd agree. think it's the, I see to be honest is that, okay, if it was me, if I could wave a magic one myself and kind of go, okay, what do I think would be good for Apple? I feel like it's not just Tim Cook. It's actually that they've got all of these older guys and you know, I'm not trying to be ageist here or anything, but you've got these very tenured, very established, typically men. who are guiding Apple, you know, I mean, we've, we've got here for swan with Craig Federici. you know, there's the other guy who I can never remember his names, Phil Schiller. there we go. And what I feel really is it's not just, Tim Cook's got to go. We've got to have a new leadership. It's more than that. It's a, the actual team that is getting in front of people needs to shift. Like I would. I would suggest they had to reboot everything. You would need, a new figurehead, a new CEO of some sort. But actually we should be introducing a new team around. We used to have Steve Jobs and Johnny Ive. You know, and it was very clear there was this sort of partnership of vision and design going on. We don't have that anymore. I couldn't actually tell you who's really driving all of the design in UX. at Apple. There will be a person. Yeah, but here we go, right? I'm not sure it needs to be complete cult of personality kind of scenarios that you've ended up with these really strong figures. Daniel (35:56.546) Is it Jeff Williams? Daniel (36:07.126) No, Jeff Williams is the CEO. He's kind of like the next CEO, like rumored to be. But they have like one chief designer. It's just like, he's also not very inspired. Dave (36:09.575) Okay, yep. Yeah. Mm And this is I don't think it needs to be like I say, a cult of personality of big figureheads all the time. I'd love to see a cult of team, though. Like what is Apple's what are Apple's internal values? What are the way the team are getting together to really make these things come to life? You know, can they feature some of their their All styles within the company through this, like we see every now and again with, you know, some of the keynote stuff and dub dub DC, we do see some of the lead developers for different areas bubbling up through the, through the sessions. feel like the same thing should be true of the leadership team of the product team of everybody sort of driving all of this together. It would be lovely to sort of think. It's not just, it's Tim Cook and he's not Steve jobs. It's like, no, we've got this fantastic team. who are coming together to then make these things that are very human -orientated, very artistically -orientated. I think that's a vibe that Apple has historically had and is now failing to have really get across. And for me, that will be the reboot, right? Daniel (37:30.261) yeah. Daniel (37:38.2) Right. And you might say, but if Tim Cook is also gone, like Tim Cook was such a, like, like worked closely with Steve. So if he's also gone, then all the spirit that Steve Jobs can imbue in the company will also be gone. And to that, say, A, you don't imbue a company with spirit. The companies are entities. But B, what I really want to say is it can be like, put the right team in there. And there can be a fantastic company that is like, that has the values. Dave (37:50.761) Mm -hmm. Dave (38:01.993) Mm Daniel (38:07.726) that we liked about Apple. Like look at Microsoft, for example. Microsoft is not a whimsy company, right? But they have made such a 180 in the last 10 years or so from, yeah, Windows needs to be everywhere to, hey, we're now suddenly the company that half of the clouds runs on and that every web developer uses. And that has almost a chokehold over AI in some places. Dave (38:19.807) Mm Dave (38:36.233) Mm Daniel (38:37.164) that is like an integral part of so much of modern culture just because they make so much of the backbone of that. And it's like, wow, that is a incredible pivot basically in startup speak. But yeah, like so you can revitalize something and it might be different, but it's still like nice and mostly helpful. Dave (38:44.884) Yes. Dave (39:00.991) Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's it. needs, but it's one of those things. don't feel like Microsoft ever really acknowledged fully, Hey, we've gone down a bit of a dead end on stuff. You you sort of say the turnaround in the last 10 years, we had the, the, their approach to mobile floundered, in a lot of ways, windows phones are not a thing. but what I haven't really seen as being any big sort of like, Daniel (39:22.104) Yeah. Dave (39:31.151) Any big bang of all of this. It's been more of a series of steps that Microsoft have taken that have now added up this way. Yeah. Daniel (39:36.304) but that is, yeah, of course you can't just do one big bang, right? But basically that is what Sacha and Nadella has done to the company. And at the same time, it's Tim Cook who has been able to lead Apple very successfully, but at the same time has carcified, carcified, is that a word? Like calcified, calcified, that's what I mean, the company, right? It's been a good step by step, and every step was the right. Dave (39:40.606) Yeah. Dave (39:52.265) Mm -hmm. Dave (39:56.063) calcified. Yep. That's it. Daniel (40:05.442) was probably the right step, but now the direction needs to change and it will take a while to change, regardless of who's taking the reins, but it probably will need to change at some point. Otherwise, Apple will slowly go down into obscurity at some point. Not in the next five years, but like sometimes. Dave (40:12.307) Yes. Dave (40:23.689) Yeah. Bit by bit, yeah. And I see this and you know, I've been looking into cross -platform developments and sort of looking outside of the ecosystem and that sort of thing. And part of that for me, it runs off the back of this, right? It's not that I want to go, I'm not making iPhone apps or anything anymore. You know, like there's no big thing there. It's more a case of going, okay, I can see we've got this sort of direction here. I want to personally diversify. I've actually taken a bit of a look against what I'm building and what I want to achieve with the apps and products that I make. And it's more of a strategy for me to go, well, I want to connect with lots of different sorts of people. And that vibe that I was sort of saying to you just earlier about seeing all of this playback and realizing just how strong it is a monied demographic underpinning everything with Apple now. And I think it was has been to a large extent, right? It's just Daniel (41:29.762) Yeah, yeah, we might have not not not been as like, just like, it might not have been as visible to us personally, earlier, but totally like, when I was when I was younger, like Apple was the the rich kid stuff that I just couldn't afford. Now I can. So it feels like, this is normal stuff, but it's still rich kid stuff. Dave (41:36.35) Yes. Dave (41:44.147) Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so there's a bit there for me, which is I'm looking at, you know, bringing my app to Android and that side of things, because again, I want it to be accessible. that's the right thing for me to be looking towards. Bringing this all back to the actual Apple event and everything though, and where Apple's at, I think this is the bit that worries me a little bit is that disconnection. If they keep... going down that path, that divide is going to be even bigger if you like. yeah, I don't just want to be making things that are only for people with lots and lots of money. Like people with a bit of money or people who have, you know, saved and gone, okay, I want to get an iPhone or an iPad because it's got this longevity and everything I appreciate about it. Yeah, for sure. I understand that, but I don't want this. complete divide to be, I guess, to be so, so huge. And it's, I'm focusing on this and perhaps it's a bit amusing. This is what I got out of the event, but yeah, I don't know. It just didn't click with me for all of these reasons. And I fell asleep towards the end because it was five in the morning. It's five in the morning that it starts in New Zealand. Yep. Yep. Daniel (43:08.59) That might have something to do with it. For me, it's just prime time in the evening. It's just like you sit down at 7 p you just had dinner maybe, or you have a snack. I had a glass of wine and it was just nice. And especially with the wine, you're very much, much more sympathetic towards that. So, fantastic. Dave (43:21.897) Mm -hmm. That's nice. That's nice. Dave (43:28.913) in the zone. Yep. I'd had coffee and some biscuits. Daniel (43:38.722) So thoughts about Apple Watch, if any. Dave (43:42.475) who felt like the ultra got sidelined a little bit. Daniel (43:48.322) Yes, yes, that's what I thought too. Dave (43:50.707) Yeah, very much like the direction towards being thinner. That looked cool. Other than that, solid update if you're in the market for an update. Brilliant. But, you know, for me personally, I'll keep running my watch for another year or two before I even think about upgrading. Daniel (44:11.596) Yeah, same. I have the seven and it's still just like fantastic. At some point I want another one. Just when the battery will go or maybe like if a new, like I was gonna say if a new screen size gets introduced, but I think that just happened. But yeah, not this year. Same as with the airports though. I feel like I felt, I feel like know why they did it. Dave (44:13.737) Mm Dave (44:18.377) Yep. Dave (44:33.823) Mm Daniel (44:38.606) but it still felt weird that they kind of reintroduced existing products with just like a, what amounts to a color change. Like they reintroduced the Ultra 2 with, now it's very black and they had a few accessories for it, but it's still the Ultra 2 that is now like has the, no longer the largest screen because the large Apple 110 now has that. And I don't know, like it's just, it feels a bit. Dave (44:59.316) Yep. Daniel (45:07.786) Weird. Like I know, like it makes sense to be like, Hey, this is our whole product lineup here. Like we're not going to, have to, we have to talk about it somehow, but at the same time, I don't know. I don't know what I would have done differently. It just felt a bit, bit weird. Like, Hey, this is the same product as last year. It is the same price. Dave (45:29.267) Yes, and the same thing happened with the AirPods Max as well, That's got a USB port on it now and it's the same price. Daniel (45:34.86) Right. Right. Daniel (45:39.244) And the pro, think. Did the AirPods Pro get really renewed? Because they kind of reintroduced, they introduced the new AirPods that have lots of the pro features except the sticking in your ear bit. But I think they also just reintroduced the regular AirPods Pro, right? I don't think it's an actual new. Dave (45:46.364) Yes, I Dave (45:59.871) That's right. I'm looking I'm looking on the page today and we've got AirPods is flagged with new AirPods Pro is not, although it does say that AirPods Pro will soon feature a scientifically validated hearing test and clinical grade hearing aid capability, which is kind of cool. And the AirPods Max just shows new colors against it. Daniel (46:17.794) Yeah. Daniel (46:23.544) Right. Which nothing against that. But at the same time, especially the AirPods Max, like, come on, this is like, drop the price slightly. Like, this is a bit embarrassing. Dave (46:26.43) No. Dave (46:33.361) Yeah, I would have said like drop the price slightly and give it USB still and everybody keeps on trucking for another year then you know next year they could drop the price a little more and introduce an updated version. Daniel (46:45.824) Especially since it like it has worse features than all of the other airports now, but it's this silver It's still the most expensive one And that's like that feels wrong Dave (46:54.174) Yep. does a bit. Yeah, I don't know. I'm looking at all of all of these right now and yeah, none of it really, really resonates too hard in terms of how they've gone. But the new AirPods, I think that was probably a good direction. A whole load of fun stuff for people who have that model. The Pro with the hearing aid stuff. Daniel (47:16.866) Mm Dave (47:26.455) That's really quite interesting to me. My wife is deaf and the type of performance they would offer as hearing aids wouldn't really help her. But we have said for a while, it feels like the technology in the AirPods Pro is sort of getting closer to being hearing aid style technology. It's solving a very, very similar Daniel (47:30.178) Mm Dave (47:54.665) problem, right? You know, it's boosting sound into your ear. So yeah, I think that for me was pretty cool to see. Daniel (48:03.726) I mean, Apple's demographic is getting older and older. You've got to find something to be able to sell them. Dave (48:09.873) Yeah, yeah, but also, I mean, the other thing is this hearing aid is damn expensive, Daniel. If you've got, you know, mild to moderate hearing loss and AirPods Pro with the right mold is going to help you, especially with their hearing tests that they can do and then configure for you. That's actually quite door opening there. know, in all of my cynicism earlier, this is one that is like this is to me, this is really quite cool because it's an enabler for people. So yeah, I really like that actually. It remains to be seen how it will actually work for people and how good it will be. But I think that was a definite hit in terms of like enabling people. So I quite like that. Daniel (49:04.514) Okay, I can see that, that's pretty cool. It's gonna look weird at first though, like someone with airports in. On the other hand, I have no starters sometimes, like at the cashier in the supermarket, just leaving them in as well, just switching to transparency mode. And I sometimes feel like, am I being rude, but at the same time, it's like, whatever. I'm not being rude on purpose. Dave (49:11.185) yeah. Dave (49:23.155) Mm -hmm. Dave (49:27.455) Yeah. Daniel (49:33.356) Like it's, it's, it should be pretty clear that I'm in transparency mode. question of the question, question though to you, like, are you going to buy any of the things that they introduced? Dave (49:37.385) Mm Dave (49:46.254) Okay, so there's a point where upgrading from my iPhone 14 Pro would it would only make sense on two factors for me. would be the A, I get to play with the new shiny, which is always fun. That doesn't feel like a big enough pool for that amount of money. But the B. Daniel (50:05.838) It's not lot different shiny, right? Especially from the 14 to the 16. Dave (50:10.207) Yeah, it's actually less shiny, to be honest. But it would enable me to complete the hand -me -down cycle in our household. And that would then help my eldest in terms of his YouTube activities and other things that he uses his phone for if he was to then get the 14 Pro from me. So there's a point there where my getting the new kit sort of completes that cycle. Not enough to pull me right now to go, hell yeah, I want to go and do that now. I'm sort of looking and going, yeah, give it another month or so. Let them get the initial orders out of the way. You know, get the first release of iOS 18 out of the way. And then maybe I'll look at it. But otherwise, yeah, definitely eyeballing the AirPods Pro 2, even though they're not updated in a sense of, yeah. The ones I've got are starting to age out a bit. So that could be nice. But other than that, there's a lot there that looks good if you're in the market, but I'm kind of not. Everything's working. So it's all good. How about you though, Daniel? Daniel (51:31.214) I have hemmed and hauled for a while, but I'm gonna get a phone. Right now I have the 12 Pro Max, and I feel like the difference, especially in camera and screen, are significant enough to upgrade from the 12 to the 16. So I'm gonna get the 16 Pro Max in desert color because that is the least boring color of all the colors. Although it is still... Dave (51:34.671) Mm -hmm. Ay. Dave (51:41.833) Mm -hmm. Dave (51:59.167) Hold up, hold up, I've gotta go look. Daniel (52:01.144) Very boring. Dave (52:03.795) This is the downside to falling asleep, Daniel. I don't actually know what they all look like. Daniel (52:04.334) Daniel (52:07.726) I used to have like, I had the six plus in gold. So yeah, I still, probably like, because right now I'm on, I'm like without a case all the time, but I might just put it into a case that has a more interesting color. But I was like, I'm going to get the most interesting of the colors nonetheless. Like I was like, it was like, what's kind of like trying to decide between this one and that deep black one. Dave (52:15.314) Okay. Dave (52:25.811) You can do. Dave (52:29.897) Mm Daniel (52:37.038) But I think the deep black is just, yeah, everybody's gonna get that. And since they don't have a blue one, which is like atrocious, yeah, you're just gonna get the shiny one. I have decided on going with 256 gigs of memory disk, which is the smallest now, which is pretty good. Yes. Dave (52:42.014) Yeah, I see that. Mm -hmm. Dave (52:58.847) And the Pro Max, yeah, it's 128 is the smallest for the... Daniel (53:01.838) Because I looked at mine like mine mine mine my 16 Pro Max I'm sorry my 12 Pro Max has 256 which used to be the medium size and it is half full So I'm feeling like because like I have like I cloud Photos and everything So I feel like that's that's fine. I'm going to take more video for Tiktok and stuff in the future, but also that also gets like sync to iCloud and then Dave (53:12.222) Yes. Okay. Daniel (53:31.808) not being stored on the phone. And I feed okay with that. All right, so yeah. Dave (53:39.295) No, that's cool. I'm just looking at it now and I think that will obviously that'll be a lovely device to go from a 12 to the 12 is no slouch as well still right so. Daniel (53:49.504) Right. But I'll gain 5x zoom, which is going to be pretty awesome. I'll gain a way better screen that goes to the edges and has ProMotion now, which I don't have. And I seem to be able to gain a few hours of battery life, which is also very nice to have. Dave (53:53.619) Mm -hmm. Daniel (54:11.306) And also that camera button, which, and the action button. So for me, it is, is actually an upgrade with two more buttons. Like it used to be like iPhones, iPhones got less buttons, fewer, fewer buttons. Now they're getting more. Dave (54:24.251) Mm -hmm. I was just looking at it now. Yeah, that'll be a nice upgrade, Daniel. And I feel a bit mean for sort of ragging on how boring stuff has been, because I'm looking at that now. And it is nice. That's the other thing. Just because there's not been dramatically new changes or lots of really bright colors and all the rest of it, it doesn't mean that these devices are not going to be lovely to use. have all of the things. Yeah, that's going to be a nice upgrade for you. Like I say, I'm tempted, but very much in a sense of it helps the circle of life through our household. I would definitely appreciate the better camera, the better zoom. and I, incidentally, Daniel, I'm actually going to be taking more videos for things like TikTok and Instagram and that side of things over the next few months as well. So. Daniel (55:29.836) I posted a TikTok just now. Dave (55:31.915) dang, you're to have to link it in the show notes so I can link it here. Daniel (55:33.528) Yeah. I shall do that. Dave (55:39.124) Huh. Daniel (55:39.619) Cool. We have more topics, but I think we don't have the time to really talk about them. Dave (55:48.783) I think this is the show, Daniel, and that's OK, because we can certainly talk about some of those other topics next week. Daniel (55:50.871) Yeah. Daniel (55:56.974) Totally. All right. Fans, chat, mean, Thanks for listening. Please rate us on iTunes and YouTube. Send us emails at contact at waitingforreview .com and join our Discord. The link is in the show notes. Dave, where can people find and follow you? Dave (56:18.907) You can find me on mastodon at Dave at social dot light beam apps dot com. You can find out all about my apps at light beam apps dot com and you can see my attempts at engaging with my users on Instagram at light beam apps dot com or one word. I'll link that in the show notes. Daniel (56:42.22) Fantastic. Dave (56:44.799) How about yourself, Daniel? Daniel (56:46.254) All right, to find out more about what I do, go to Google, type in Duck Duck Go, click on Duck Duck Go, type in Telemetry Deck, click on Telemetry Deck, scroll down all the way, click on Instagram, and on Instagram, click on TikTok. And then you go to the Telemetry Deck TikTok account that is called Telemetry Deck. Dave (57:06.749) Yeah, I'm not doing any of that, Daniel. Daniel (57:08.558) I can make the chain longer. Fantastic. All right, have a great evening. No, a great day even. I'll have a great evening and see you soon. Bye. Dave (57:11.775) I'll link you properly in the show notes. I'll link you properly in the show notes. Dave (57:23.793) Mm -hmm. Take care, Daniel.