Brian: PodRocket is sponsored by LogRocket, a front-end monitoring and product analytics solution. Don't know what that is? Go to logrocket.com. Thanks. Brian: Ace, hello. Ace: Hello. Thank you for having me. Brian: Thank you for being here. It is a pleasure. How are you? Ace: I'm very fine today. How are you? Brian: Also very fine. No one's ever said that they're very fine to me before. I like that. I'm going to steal it. Ace: Yeah. Sometimes I say, "Not too shabby." Brian: Not too shabby is okay. Ace, who are you? What do you do? Intro yourself, please. Ace: Yeah, I'm human, from Lagos, Nigeria. Brian: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ace: I spent quite a lot of time doing web engineering. I'm a front-end engineer at Flutterwave, a global payments gateway out of Lagos, Nigeria, where we try to bring businesses to accept payments from anywhere in the world, especially businesses in Africa. Ace: When I'm not doing that I'm a developer advocate, a YouTuber, a gamer. And I also try to talk about my experiences, and either in tech or just nature, everyday life experiences on YouTube, and also share my experiences on Twitter. Ace: So, that's who Ace is. Brian: That was very succinct. I mean, you have a lot going on. I'm super excited for this episode. Let's start with Flutterwave, a little bit. What do you do there? I know you said obviously you're a front-end developer? Ace: It's actually a little bit tricky recently, because I switched roles, and a lot of people have been asking me, "Wait, what exactly are you doing right now?" Ace: Well, I joined Flutterwave as a developer advocate, and the goal was to improve the developer experience of our products, relates to the develop our relationship, improve it, allow more people to be aware that you don't have to be a big enterprise company to use us. At Flutterwave you could use us for a small business, your projects that you need to accept payment. So, the job, at that point was basically just to revamp a lot of resources that we had, and make it very developer friendly, and also create more resources for developers. Ace: I spent a little over a year in that role, and then I was like, "You know what? I'll just transition on to the front-end role while also doing some of the things that I do in developer advocacy." Ace: So, right now I am majorly in the front-end department, but I still participate and do dev advocacy things [inaudible 00:02:04]. Brian: How many employees, roughly? How big is the team? Ace: I can't remember the exact number, but I think we are 300 right now- Brian: Oh wow! Ace: Almost 300 right now, yes. Brian: I mean, I knew it was big. I didn't know it was 300. So, the dev advocacy or DevRel team is maybe 50 people, 10 people? Ace: Yeah. We've managed to grow the developer experience team, actually that's what we call it a Flutterwave. I would say we are up to maybe up to 20 people. Brian: Oh, wow, cool. Ace: Yeah. We have people in integrations, people that are in the technical support, and people that are just also creating resources and try to help developers in the firm or publicly, public engagement. Recently, we also add this social media accounts role, which is basically for front-end engineering, and we can support developers easily out of trying to do from their main accounts. Ace: So we had this platform to basically connect more with developers and have a direct line. "Okay. These are the plugins that we've created. This is our new libraries. These are things we are doing, engineering wise. These are resources that are new, where you can use, that are for this platform, or for these other platforms." Ace: So basically we've got the platforms and they'll help people in different sections, and in those platforms as well, to better engage these developers. Brian: That's interesting. And then, so you have, not really a hybrid role at the moment, but you still do some dev experience work? Ace: Yeah. So if I'll give you a brief idea of my days. Brian: Yeah. Ace: I wake up thinking majorly about my front-end task, where I have to do this, solve this, fix this boggle. And that boggle that sent me to bed the night before. Ace: Then outside that, it's just me also engaging with other members of the DevEx team. It's not everyday thing anymore, but it's also talking about, "These are things we need to do." Ace: Either we have to do the solution, or improve some aspects of a developer platform, or even our help center, because a lot of technical things go in there too. But that's not my day to day. It's just a part of my day just engaging with the DevEx team. And also I get a lot of people messaging me on social media. "Oh, I am having this issue. How can I do this?" Ace: So even my personal account is almost like a support account, in most cases. I think that comes with the territory. So that happens a lot, so that takes me away from my actual, front-end engineering that I do mostly during the day. Brian: Yeah, I can relate to having your personal account as sort of a support account. But I also feel I don't really know how often somebody actually wants to have a conversation with a... even if it's not a big company, like a corporate Twitter account. Unless it's as an airline. Like if it was an airline, and I lost my bags that I'm definitely going to tell Delta, "Hey." Ace: Totally. Brian: But if I have a problem with a SAS product, I'm not super interested in that, but that'll probably come back to bite me later on when we have a formalized social program and it's not just- Ace: I think enough people just prefer the personalized approach, "Oh, I need to do this. Can you help me?" Ace: And just go straight to it. Yeah. Brian: Yeah. No, that makes sense. That's interesting, also about developer experience. Is everyone on the team a developer experience engineer? Ace: Not everybody. Brian: Okay. Ace: Most of us, they are. A lot of people in the team are engineers, basically. But we are also trying to, we have people that are also focus on storytelling that are from other departments, but work now on the DevEx team. To better... just create resources for developers that are just not... You know, you have to think about it from also a business point of view. I mean, developers are using this in their businesses, so it's easy to get caught up with technicalities. So once in a while, you also have to take a step back and think, "How does this actually apply in a business environment? Not just technical wise." Ace: For developers, for example, to be able to understand that, "Oh, this is how you can use these tools." Ace: Not just, "Oh, this is how to write these tools." Ace: If you know what I mean. Brian: No, I do, this is maybe too granular, and it may be only interesting to me, but so I'm always really interested in the evolution of, I guess, what used to be DevRel or dev advocacy, and kind of the differences in what the titles are, and how things are structured. So if there are DevEx engineers? And then the people who are not engineers, what are they called? Do they have a title that's different? Ace: That is a good question. I'll have to check their bios. Brian: Yeah. See, I agree. It's not weird to me that that's... I don't know, because I feel like maybe the profession is undergoing an evolution, right? And so it's not strange. I've heard that before, which is why I'm kind of obsessed with it. Ace: So I think the thing is, when I look at Nigeria itself, we don't have a lot of companies, local companies, taking developer advocacy roles. So a lot of it involves us winging it. And when we have new hires in developer advocacy, as well, it involves a lot of thinking about how you want to plan the structure out. It's usually very tied to technical product specialists, or technical account managers and then technical support. So the existing departments in these companies have to somehow collaborate to do DevRel. Ace: So for us now, it's just basically, I think we're three developer advocates, there were [Iad 00:06:44], myself, [Ikenne 00:06:44], and Raphael. And we had to just work with other members of the other teams to try to form our own team. But then eventually they were like, "If you merger between technical support and developer advocacy itself." Ace: So I would say even for those that are not hands-on engineering, which I think almost everyone's hands on engineering at some point, but people that also involved in just the experience part of it. Everyone has basically got a developer experience engineer, right now. Ace: But it's you said, it's something that is in progress. And the more we establish the process, the more we say, "Okay, I'm going to focus on this part. I'm probably going to be more outreach or community. Probably going to be more support or education, that kind of thing." Ace: And then the bigger the team gets, the more specialized individual members of the team get to be. But more often than not, developers are just going to be developer experience engineers. Brian: To signal that you are in fact engineers. Ace: Yes. Brian: Yeah. That part is important, so that folks don't forget. Ace: Yeah, and, I don't know if you've noticed, but there are also a huge number of people coming out of Nigeria being developer advocates. Companies are trying to also get developer advocates, because if you are bidding for developers, you need to have that relationship. It's not just about CS anymore. It's also about our relationship. And is it growing? There's a growing industry out here. I think that we're going to see more people become developer advocates as time goes on. Brian: Well, hold that thought. Because I feel like I'll get back to what's going on in Nigeria, tech wise, and then also kind of what the trends are. Brian: Congratulations on Flutterwave's giant funding round. Not exactly breaking news at this point. Ace: Yeah, that's huge. Brian: Yeah. No, that's, that's really, really impressive. If you're interested in that and you can Google. Brian: I forget how much it was. Do you know? Hundreds of millions of dollars. Ace: It's kind of a validation for the ecosystem. I mean, a lot of startups also inspire that, at some point they can, if not get there, they can get really close. There's also awareness for the ecosystem itself. In Nigeria, in Africa as a whole. I know a lot of people are already aware, but when you hear about this kind of thing, it brings even more awareness. A lot of developers and entrepreneurs in the ecosystem are also like, "Yes, we can actually do this." Ace: That there's a platform being presented that yes, people from this region and can also have access to funding and global products that can actually reach that kind of unicorn status. So it's just a validation to all the people that are hustling and trying to get stuff done. Yeah. I know a lot of people are trying to get into this space. So I think it's a, win-win. It's a huge win for the entire ecosystem. Not just Flutterwave itself. Brian: Yeah. No, we're here nodding our heads, like, "Yes. That's awesome." Brian: I want to talk about Nigeria a little bit. What are the tools that are coming out of Nigeria that are interesting? That you think are either noteworthy or maybe you know personally or whatever? The things that pop to mind? Ace: I think the first one that comes to my right now is Chakra UI. I think everyone knows about that at this point. It's one of the most popular projects, open source projects, especially out of Nigeria. Ace: There's one product I actually find interesting is also recent. Tensei.js, which was built by Kati, I think that was his name. And it's basically Atlas CMS, that allows you to be a backend, and APIs for your applications ASAP. I'm looking forward to building with it, but something that's also very promising. Ace: There's also a startup. I think it's called Abeg that allows people to P2P payments. Ace: So those are projects that are just interesting. I kind of look at it like, "Oh yeah, this is what the ecosystem is building." Ace: How people are just.... The African communities, as well, are springing up, trying to support each other, basically. Brian: Do you feel there's a common thread among them? Is there some commonality there, or is it they just kind of what people are interested in? Ace: Yeah, I think one thing I've noticed about a lot of projects coming out of... Well, my space is, that a lot of it are very web focused. Which I think is also valid, because I'm actually a huge fan of the web. I feel the web can be used anywhere. Your smart devices, your Apple watches, your fridge, your PlayStation. I don't think the web will ever go out of fashion. See more people will build for the web, and I feel it's just something that, "Okay, yes, we would continue to shape the experiences for the web." Ace: And when we, as Nigerians, actually are building resources that other people from all over the world can use to build their own custom experiences on. It's a very interesting angle to approach it from, where you are building a solution, with your own experiences. Right? Whereas in tools, underling tools are built by an engineer, and anything you build is basically on that foundation. So I feel those kind of products are really powerful. Those are products that are building for other developers, basically. Ace: And I really those kind of projects, because the potential is limitless. Because you've built your own solution to your own like, "Oh, this is where I think I can do this thing for." Ace: And then other people just come in and just extend it to levels you've never imagined, basically. Brian: That's a good point. I mean, I always figured that my first of all, I'd to point out that you're a big proponent of the web on people's refrigerators. I just wanted everyone to make sure that that's what you're saying is the leading edge of web development. Ace: That's only specific. Brian: You said it, I didn't say it. Ace: I will say... Ace: I just feel like, at some point, we have to access the web from anywhere, from any device that can be considered smart, right? From your tables. Brian: Yeah. Ace: From your walls. Brian: Yeah. Ace: Right? Brian: No, I get it. I just think it's funny. No one's ever really talked about that to me before and I think I've never really considered it seriously. And I'm not sure if I am at the moment. Brian: Anyway, back to the original point, which I think is probably more interesting to people, is that I always kind of assumed that... Like, yes, I saw more web based stuff coming out of Nigeria, but then that's who I'm talking to, is web developers. I just figured I had a biased or skewed view. I don't really know that many folks that are working on backend projects, or even our backend developers. But again, I just figured that was a me problem. Do you think it's a you problem too? Ace: I mean, a little bit, but I'm also in the ecosystem, so I can see other stuff. There are definitely mobile developers iOS, Android developers, and all that. Unique, specific niches. But one thing I think is probably fueling that growth when it comes to the web is the model of learning that people are approaching, right? Ace: So a lot of learning right now in the community is basically, people coming together to say, "Okay, these are the resources that you can have, and your chance of breaking into tech. And one of the chances of that, one of the easiest routes to go is web. Or you learn HTML and CSS." Ace: And when we have a lot of communities that are talking about JavaScript, talking about [Next 00:12:46] Framework, things that make it easier for you to move from a novice to an actual junior developer, as an example. A lot of these resources are structured around the web. Very few are mobile or other kind of platforms, right? So when you see these communities, a lot more people are going to be involved in the web. And then also see the other end of the spectrum, which is designers. Ace: For example, we have Figma coming out. A lot of people in Nigeria, our designers, are using Figma a lot. And even though we have other people building mobile experiences in Figma, huge number of these people are also building experiences for the web. They are building UIs, landing pages, try to get acclimated with the ecosystem, with the tools are easy, so they can also advance in their career. Ace: So you're having two rapidly growing industries, that is design and development, focused on the web. So it's understandable that a lot of resources that'll be created out of this side would also be focused the web. Ace: There are definitely mobile, like I mentioned. But yes, I'm also biased because I have a lot of web developers around me, and designers as well. And a lot of people are just focused on the web, basically. Brian: Yeah, it makes total sense. Now I'm interested in what you said, about people just starting out as developers in Nigeria, and kind of what... Not, when I say ecosystem, I'm not meaning the technical ecosystem, necessarily. I don't want to use the word community because I'm not there. I don't know. So maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Brian: But you said people come together and figure out how to get started, or how to break into tech. It would be helpful for me, because I've always seen it from the outside now for years, as new writers come to the blog, and I always kind of say that they come in waves. They will arrive, and do some writing for maybe a year, and then they move on to do other stuff. Brian: Can you describe that process for me, at least in Nigeria, that you've seen? Either what is the impetus? And then how does that... what are the mechanics there? Is it just a lot of self-directed learning, are people getting to get together physically and then ultimately they write for me and I say, "Cool, thank you." Ace: I get what you mean. It's sort of indirect part, right? I think for people breaking into tech is either you are very interested in tech from a young age, or maybe in school. Or you find other people that you admire, and all these people are doing these kind of things in tech, and you want to come in. Ace: So it starts with the communities, most of the time. Many people of course do boot camps or private learning, and other stuff. Were each done by the communities, like open source communities, Open Source Africa, Code Africa, and For Loop... Those communities are like, "Oh, we are presenting you, providing your resources, that you can use to get started with your tech journey." Ace: So when you look at these structures, it's basically very community focused. A lot of people are like what they are learning in public, you see under these of code, you see all these engagements. So the entire learning process is built on the community. So when you took about a lot of people coming to LogRocket, as we were. I think the step is that when you start learning how to do these things, build applications, and are getting engaged. For you to also advance your career, to get to the point of people that are looking up to say Christian or Prosper as the case may be. You also want to put your name out there. You want to be the brand around your work. Ace: And more often than not, the next place to go is to start talking about your work, your projects. So you go start to be into technical writing. Talk about the things you are building, talk about technologies that you are using. And then you also have to make some money, right? So you have to start improving your writing skills because it's what you do. You work on a regular day, you start to monetize that part of it. Start writing about it, start reaching out to the platforms that you can write for, writing platforms. Then you can make some money off it at the same time. Ace: And also, sometimes it's just about building your brand. When you're writing for Smashing Magazine writing for LogRocket, writing on [Pusher 00:16:14], or any of that kind of platform like that, as you go on that journey, it's just like a sort of social currency for you. People get to see your work. They know that this is what you do. Not everybody follows this to the letter, but different aspects of it come into play. Ace: Some people didn't necessarily have to do technical writing. Some people would just go to YouTube. Some people give technical talks. It think the fundamental part of it is that learning around the community so that people in the community get to know that this person does this thing. And maybe there's an opportunity, or some kind of referral stuff. You get to recommend this person. Ace: More often than not, I think my last few jobs are basically come from recommendations. It's like, "Oh, you need to get Ace to do this." Ace: Or, "What can I do to get you to start on Monday?" Ace: Or, "I saw your profile. I would like to do this." Ace: Or, "Someone mentioned you to me." Ace: So that learning around the community itself has been a fundamental structure that is powered a lot of developers coming out of Nigeria. I think, I don't want to like pull a number out of my head, or other body places, but probably one in two developers I speak to today, for you to be able to reach out to them, that I was already involved in the community in the first place, or for you to reach out to them to be like, "Well, how did you get started learning? What about [inaudible 00:17:15]?" Ace: "I started learning on my own. Then I joined these people and I started talking with these people. Ace: Or, "I made these friends and we're sharing our work." Ace: So that structure has been something that people having been paying forward, so more people come in, they do their thing, they grow. Even if they move out of the country, there's always that connection back. Like, "Oh, this person is creating these resources. This person is building this open source project. This person is supporting other developers, gets to that point, and then his referrals, his recommendations..." Ace: More people are upscaling and up, up, and it's just growing. So I would say that entire pipeline, right now is, of course there are personalities, and people from our institutions. But a huge number of it is from that community part. People learning in the comments, learning in public, and just open and shut out, is most of the case. Ace: In the same time, you've seen open source communities, you've seen Figma Africa. People supporting designers, people supporting developers. And these numbers are huge. We get 300 people at any of the meetups. Not even conferences, like meetups. You get 1,000 plus people at any of the conferences. And a lot of these people are just trying to get their work out there, also like, "I deserve recognition. This person can do this kind of work." Ace: So, for my opinion, as well as most of the developers in the entire system, the entire community that we really have here out of this side of the world. Brian: Yeah. What's amazing is that it's so enormous. I can't find the right word... overlook. I've been here at LogRocket for, I don't know, three and a half years. And there's no country that comes even close to how many developers that I talk to that are from Nigeria versus anywhere else. It's orders of magnitude. And I don't know that... I mean, I've asked. No one person can answer why that is, but it's super impressive, obviously. But it is also... Like, if you don't notice that there's so many good web developers coming out of Nigeria, I really don't know how that's possible. When I look at my inbound, when people who are emailing me being like, "Hey, look, I'm interested in writing..." Brian: It's almost... it's 75% Nigerian devs. Ace: Nigerians. Yeah, I've looked at GitHub active lists for 2020. The top countries that are growing on GitHub itself is like Nigeria at number one. I think 65% growth in the last year. And that's because a lot of these communities are also using open source as a platform to teach other, to share resources. And then everyone signs up on GitHub, or everyone is sharing their code on GitHub. Ace: No one has the answer, like you said. But I don't think anyone can just disregard the importance of that community learning. And, at some point, I feel like we had meet ups every other weekend, before the pandemic. So if you miss one, you definitely have one that you can go to next week. Or if you're not interested in this one's topic, there'll probably be one that will have a topic that is connected to your field the next week. Or even the same weekend. Ace: So there were a lot of communities, a lot of people just trying to grow their brand. Learn in public, and just support each other. And I think that would be a huge part of it. Brian: Grow their brands so they can someday be as famous as Code Beast. Ace: Probably. Brian: Shout out, Christian. What do you do after that? After you ascend to those levels of fame? How could you be better than him? Ace: I mean, I'm not there yet. But I have a vague idea. So I think one thing is, for people like myself, Chris, a few other people like Prosper, for example. But a lot of these people came into tech through this community part that we mentioned. And they were communities like DevCenter, and some other smaller communities back in the day that created a platform for these people to share resources and learn. Ace: So one thing I've also noticed is that as people like this continue to scale in their career, there's always this pay forward mindset that goes with it, because everyone knows that the communities also part of their work. So they try to pay forward, like, "Okay, we're going to support other members of the community. Or actual critical of the community." Ace: Prosper went onto co-found For Loop, which is a huge developer community in Nigeria. There's also Moyinoluwa, I think a huge chunk of the Google developer communities as well, with some other people. So these people are like they went through that platform, they went through that community, and then when they get to the top, usually they're also to help the next set of people to come up, and just show that these are the possibilities. Ace: And I never thought people that were not directly involved in those communities. That is people my age or upwards. They appear as an example that, "Oh, these people did this kind of thing. I should be able to this also. Forge a path in my career." Ace: So even if they are directly responsible for those people, and as examples for, "Okay, I'm a junior developer now. What's my next step? What's going to be the next level for me?" Ace: These people are basically like outlined, of "If I'm able to do this kind of thing, I can become a Google developer expert." Ace: Or, "If I do this kind of thing, I can become a senior engineer." Ace: So even when these people are not actively involved in the community for different reasons. It could be work. They've also just created a line of their past works, has a created chart. Or, "If you do this and design this, there's a high chance you'd be able to do this." Ace: So that influence has definitely trickled down the entire pipeline. And I think this is one of the most amazing things that is going on this side of the world right now. Brian: So who do you think deserves more attention, that maybe doesn't have it right now? I mean, there's you. Everyone should know Ace. If you don't know Ace, that's silly. But, who do you like? Ace: There's someone I would say right now, but I'm not sure he's going to like it. Brian: Great. That's the best part. I love that kind of answer. Ace: And you know this person, actually Nosa. Ace: Nosa has been building amazing solutions for the longest time. He's also head of front-end at Flutterwave. But he's been really quiet about it. I mean, not a lot of people know this person is very good with this front-end, and he just does the social media, when he writes articles. And I think the amount of knowledge that is waiting to be tapped, and that's buried. But yeah, if there's anyone I would like more people to know about, I would definitely start with Nosa. He's actually my team lead right now, funny enough. Brian: Yeah. I agree. I mean, he has written a lot of articles. He has trailed off a little bit. But I think that's not uncommon, but yeah, he definitely is going hate that we're talking about him. And I love that. Ace: Definitely going to... Brian: Yeah, which is the best part, I think, probably maybe of this whole episode, for me. Brian: But yeah, I mean, even the stuff that he's written as far back as a couple years ago, I will see that someone will show him some love and be like, "Hey, this is a great article. I found it super helpful." Brian: And then he's- Ace: I'm not going to tell him that I mentioned him till he listens to the podcast. Brian: I will... Yeah, oh, okay. I'll tell him later. And he'll be like, "Why would you do that?" Brian: But yeah. Check out Code Panda. Follow him. Ace: Yes. There's also something I'm trying out, and it's basically trying to build very small side projects, and reach out to junior designers or developers, as case may be, and try to collaborate with them. Ace: I have an example. I built a very simple, I think it's like a mini-game [inaudible 00:23:48] game. I've never shared it yet. But what I did was I decided to... I sent out a Tweet, "If a junior designer is just trying to have this experience, reach out to me and I will show you the platform. Just go design it to the best of your ability, and then we will talk about it." Ace: So I feel like this kind of, it's not like a working environment. It's not intense, would give more chances to junior designers as the case may be, or developers. To just try out their hands on projects in collaboration with someone as they could be senior. And then you can get feedback, and also improve your own work. Ace: I was waiting to share this publicly, and then I'll try and see if I can get more of my friends that are senior level to... Even if it's just a small... it doesn't have to be a startup. It's just a small side project. It would be like something very basic, and just work with someone that is junior and just walk them through the thought process, "This is what you should think of when adding something like this." Ace: And just have that trickle down effect eventually. So I think, if more people would do that, they would have more answers to all. I think more people should know about this person, more people should know about this person because then they're seeing their work. And giving them the opportunity to put their work out in the open space. So I'm hoping to get to be able to convince people to do that. Brian: Like a smaller mentorship sort of program, almost? Ace: Yes. Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ace: Except it's not like hands-on mentorship. It's like "Oh, for this project, let us doing this. Or I give you tips. We talk about this, you get experiences, and then we'll move on." Brian: Yeah, I guess that makes sense also. And didn't you just share it publicly right now? Ace: No, it's just a very small project. And I haven't actually implemented the design. I'm still talking with the designer, "Oh, this is what you should do." Ace: That kind of thing. That's why I haven't shared it yet. Brian: Oh, so you're just giving us a little teaser. Ace: Yes. Brian: Got it. Ace: I don't know if anyone that is listening. I'd definitely like to encourage anyone mid-level, senior level, for projects that are not a big deal, just collaborate with junior people and get them the opportunities. Ace: Because I don't know if you've noticed, a lot of people come out of boot camps as well. They struggle with finding real world applications to collaborate with and have that experience. A lot of them get stuck on the skills that they are taught in the bootcamp, and that is just it. So they are waiting around for internships, or good opportunities of, "Oh, this is a chance for me to actually see how people build stuff, or launch stuff in the real world." Ace: That kind of thing. So I think it provides that platform for as many people as possible when more people are doing it. Brian: All right, so when are you going to finish it? Ace: I don't know. Brian: I know. Ace: I'm on deadline at work. So that's pretty tough. Brian: I know. I'm just being difficult. But let us know. I'll shout it out. Ace: Awesome. I will do that. Brian: Well I always like to end these little chats with sort of asking the guest things that you're interested in, or what you're excited for, looking forward. I have stopped asking for specific time periods, because when I asked Swyx like, "What are you interested in this year?" Brian: It's like, "That's a silly question. I only think in terms of decades." Brian: So I don't know, I give up on that. But yeah, I mean, looking forward, what are the things that you're interested in or excited about? Ace: There are a few things, but I think one that stands out is the Jamstack. And the reason is because a lot people have really very statically served website for the longest time. But I think what is happening now is a lot of more people building headless CMS back-ends that can easily generate APIs. And I feel like there's going to be an opportunity for people to have ideas to just quickly build out even just a front-end and then connect to different APIs as easily as possible. Like you don't have to think about implementing an entire file structure to test your idea out, right? And I feel like the more people that get to use it will be able to have more ideas as they get it out there. Ace: It's one thing to have ideas in your idea book, or you have to be like a whole ton of things to actually get this, to test it, right? So I feel like with the Jamstack it's easy for you to build out an MVP as quickly as possible and try out your side projects without having to have so much demand or expenses around it as well. So yeah, definitely the Jamstack is one of those things. Ace: Also looking at Nuxt. I've been a fan of Vue.js. Nuxt is growing rapidly, and I definitely would like to know more about the Nuxt ecosystem. How it works. Building receipts, server-side ranging. [SPE 00:27:41] [SAGs 00:27:41] as the case may be. Ace: Of course, it can be Jamstack with Nuxt as well. So Nuxt as tool, Jamstack as a concept. Ace: I feel like I just went off, I'm sorry. Brian: No, that's the point. What I was actually thinking about was do you think front-end is too complex and too complicated as you were naming all of the things? And then I realized- Ace: Yes, I agree. Brian: Yeah, yeah. I assumed, but that's going to be a 15 minute discussion, at least. For anybody, for any developer that I would talk to. So yeah, maybe for part two, we'll come back, and we can... Brian: Actually, I just had an idea. Maybe I'll have a virtual round table. Is front-end to complicated? On this podcast, and everyone can say yes, and complain, and that would be cathartic and maybe helpful for everyone to listen to. Ace: Yeah I think I would enjoy that. That was good. Brian: All right, cool. I would love to keep talking to you forever, but no one wants to listen to us talk for an hour and a half. Ace: Yeah. Brian: But thank you for coming on. Ace: My absolute pleasure. I'm glad to be able to talk to you. Because I love it. Brian: Me too. You're the best. Come back. We'll talk about other stuff. We'll be friends. Ace: Yeah, you too. Brian: Better friends than we are currently. Ace: Before I go, I'd like to just give a shout out the Made in Nigeria project. It's an open source collection of projects that are built out of Nigeria. So if anyone is looking to find out more about Nigeria developers, I mean, projects, out of this region, definitely check it out. It's on GitHub and is also, I don't know, you can share the links in the notes. Brian: Yep. Ace: Yeah, basically a lot of creators, a lot of interesting projects that can be used anywhere in the world. It's not like specific projects, they are very globally relevant. So do check it out. And reach out to the creators, give them opportunities. There's talent everywhere. Brian: Go to madeinnigeria.dev. Love it. Live it. Ace: Yes. Brian: Be it. Brian: All right, I think that's a wrap for us. Ace: Thank you. Brian: Hi. Thanks for listening. Please remember to like, subscribe. Email me, if you want. Even though none of you do. Brian: Go to logrocket.com and try it out. It's free to try. Then it costs money, but yeah. We'll see you next time. Thanks.