Brian: PodRocket is sponsored by LogRocket, a frontend monitoring and product analytics solution. Don't know what that is? Go to logrocket.com. Thanks. Brian: I'm Brian. This is PodRocket. Hi, Kate. Kate: I'm Kate. And this is PodRocket. Brian: Still PodRocket. With us is Eve Porcello. Hi, Eve. Eve Porcello: Hi. Welcome to PodRocket, everybody. My name is Eve Porcello. I'm really happy to be here today. Brian: Hey. So yeah, who are you? Eve Porcello: So who am I? My name is Eve. I work at Moon Highway. Moon Highway is a JavaScript, Node.js, React, GraphQL training company based in the woods in Northern California. We teach a lot of courses to engineers and we teach a lot of courses to teachers about how to teach engineers. So our focus is really on everything you need to know to kind of be a modern web developer, and we try to make that fun and not too painful. Brian: Cool. Then you're in the right place, because that's what we talk about generally. Eve Porcello: Awesome. Brian: So I'm curious about Moon Highway. I mean, I know a little bit about it, but I'd be kind of interested in hearing... I don't really know where you want to start, either the origin or the full kind of spectrum of what it is that you do. Eve Porcello: Yeah. So we started our company 10 years ago, my husband, Alex Banks, and I moved to Tahoe for the winter. There were no jobs here and so we were like, "We better figure out a job to make up." And so that's what we did intending to work on a lot of web development kind of consulting projects. So we were building websites for, and apps, and things like that for various companies. And then because of our proximity to the Bay Area, we live about three hours away from San Francisco, we got kind of looped into teaching and really enjoyed that. It's something that Alex did before that time, but I really liked it too. So we were teaching at like Yahoo and LinkedIn and all these various places and just kind of going in for the day as an instructor and talking about something that they wanted us to. Eve Porcello: And from there that turned into, "Maybe we should record some of this stuff." And we put it on Lynda, which became LinkedIn Learning and then that became books and all sorts of other educational materials. So I would say, a lot of folks are getting into the content creation game now and they're doing it really well, and successfully, and quickly. Our company has been built really slowly over time, just kind of being like, "This seems fun. Let's try that. Let's throw that at the wall," and also being at the right place at the right time in a lot of situations for the rise of React and GraphQL and things like that. So I don't know. It's a long road. Brian: Well, yeah. I think that's true for most people. So there's a part there that I want to zero in on a little bit, because you went from kind of the start, you started your business and then you were in, I guess, onsite you were doing onsite kind of classes. Is that what's happening? Eve Porcello: Yeah. Brian: So how did that work out? I imagine it was a conscious kind of biz dev effort, or was it just networking or how did that go? Eve Porcello: That's sort of an interesting piece, because it was through other companies. So there's a lot of training companies who have huge sales teams that work with enterprise companies to staff instructors on these courses. And so there was a lot of demand for particularly at that time, the new JavaScript stuff and Node.js and a lot of jQuery content and classes at that time as well. So we were working directly with those training companies who would do all the logistics and just say, "Show up here on February 1st at 9:00 AM and teach." Eve Porcello: And that became a really good kind of training ground for me, specifically. Alex had had a lot of in the classroom experience, but for me it was brand new. And both of us came from kind of a... we met doing comedy, which is sort of embarrassing, but I say that only to say that we had focused on presenting things and trying to make things consumable and kind of leaned on that background to make that work. Brian: Was it improv? Is that why you're embarrassed? Eve Porcello: Yeah, it was all sorts of stuff. We were doing improv, we were doing sketch comedy. We were traveling around the Midwest performing for drunk audiences. So there's a lot to be embarrassed about. I can't narrow in on just one thing. Brian: I feel like that is also super relatable. So I wouldn't worry about it. Okay. But then it seems like the natural progression is, okay, I can sort of cut out the third party and maybe not necessarily go on-site although maybe, I guess I'm just trying to figure out the business model. So you had Lynda that then became LinkedIn Learning, which I just was looking at before this. I didn't realize how big that was. Eve Porcello: Yeah. Brian: Wow. No, I don't know how I missed it. I guess, that's a giant blind spot for me. But then, okay, so there's that. But then also, then you just started your own thing, which I guess, have and always has been, but even started doing your own courses and all that stuff. My question is, I have lots of questions, but the first one I have is, how do you plan? How do you plan what it is you're going to teach, how do you decide on coverage? I know that maybe GraphQL is perhaps the thing you're most known for, but I don't... anyway. I'll shut up and then let you answer the question. Eve Porcello: Yeah, I think that this is something that kind of monopolizes every piece of my brain, is this question. So I love that you asked it. I'm trying to figure out what goes into a class is something that we're just so obsessed with and obsessed with making right. So the process for us throughout, I guess, the last few years has been just to kind of really immerse ourselves into a new technology, build a bunch of apps with it, rebuild those, rebuild those, again, show those to people who are using the technology also to make sure that we're not messing anything up. Eve Porcello: And then from there, we try to kind of decompose that application into a course that hits all of the topics that we think are appropriate to cover. And we also are really focused on time. So just making sure that sufficient time is given to people. A lot of folks will show up at a class and they will be worried about how the class will go for many reasons. Content coverage, or feeling like it's not for them because they know too much or they know too little to participate in it. Eve Porcello: So our goal is really to make it real world enough by building that application, but also to make all of the topics very sequential and not throw people into a deep end of, I don't know, terms and edge cases and things like that, that don't matter as much at the outset. So yeah, I think we're really focused on that and the reason I'm smiling about that a little bit more than I perhaps should be is because we're building an app for this as well right now. So we're trying to build an application that teachers can use and I've used it a lot for our teaching lately and it works, so that's kind of cool. Eve Porcello: And it'll be an app that you can use to plan a course, but also to deliver the course. So it's like the best notes that you'll have for the course are the ones that are very thorough and are very time-oriented. So we're trying to make that available to everybody as we develop the product more. Brian: There was a lot there. Eve Porcello: Yeah. 15 minute answer. Brian: No, no, it's good. It's all good. That happens a lot. I don't know which part to respond to. How about my first thought was, do you ever think of a course or a part of a course, and then think later on, "I should not have included that part or I shouldn't... maybe we could have done it a different way." I'll tell you why I ask, right? I'm trying to think about it and how say, we plan content that LogRocket. And sometimes I will decide, or we will decide, "We're going to try to focus on this particular technology and see if the audience cares." And then the audience doesn't care. And I go, "That's a shame." So I'm just wondering if that happens to you at all. Eve Porcello: Yeah. I would say, most of the times where I put in a topic that I regret putting in is when it's sort of just trendy or I don't know, feels like something that maybe I ran into as an edge case and something I was trying to build, but it might just be that I'm trying to show off or make it seem like this thing is cool when really we're trying to prepare people to do their job and to not be as stressed out at their job. So it's really more important to focus on kind of the fundamentals and then build on that. So maybe I can still talk about that thing, but I shouldn't talk about it early where it's going to be just kind of in the way. Kate: Yeah. I was going to ask, how do you know what to take out or leave out? How do you talk about starting an app if you, don't start with like bundlers and the really niche stuff that is just kind of there? Eve Porcello: Totally. That was a really hard thing in the early days of React was like, how do you teach every single build tool plus a brand new library and those types of things. I think really thinking about what people will be doing in their day-to-day job will help with that or help me with that. We try to cut all of that stuff out of the beginner courses and make that something we introduce later. If you talk to, I don't know, PayPal engineer who's working on their projects, they have a special build pipeline that nobody is going to touch probably, unless you're on the dedicated dev tool team who's going to be maintaining that. So having engineers who are ready to write React components is a lot more important than knowing how to build a babble compiler or something like that. Brian: Now I'm wondering about personas for the people that come to your classes or that you're kind of thinking about, who are you thinking about when you're planning this stuff? Eve Porcello: I think for a long time, our most common type of student has been a Java engineer or a back-end engineer who needs to learn JavaScript for the first time. And so there's kind of a shared understanding of, they know how to use a terminal window, they know what an object is. They know what a... I don't know, they know what an IDE or something like that is, but they also have never touched anything on the frontend. So that was kind of our main audience for a long time, was these people who are very hesitant to get into JavaScript who are being forced into it by virtue of JavaScript exploding, but we want to make it such that they don't hate it entirely. So that's kind of what we've been doing. Brian: I really wanted to ask that question, but I didn't want to stereotype, but it's nice that there is in fact. I was going to be like, "So what's their enthusiasm level for the- Eve Porcello: Pretty low, pretty low. Pretty low. Yeah. But I think by the end we tend to turn those people around just because we aren't teaching them things that are way too hard at the beginning. And so, they feel like, "Okay, we made something show up in the browser. How cool is that? This is new, but it's not that painful." So that's kind of our first audience lately though, because of the GraphQL thing people are more, probably more seasoned JavaScript engineers, even if we are teaching an intro to GraphQL course. That assumes a lot of knowledge about the kind of modern JavaScript stack in order to jump in. Eve Porcello: And I know if you're listening, you don't have to use JavaScript to use a GraphQL, but it's a shorthand, I understand. But I also think that we are trying to teach more engineer... not engineers, non-engineers actually. That's a great sentence. That are really getting into programming or getting into GraphQL, particularly the GraphQL piece is that ultimately GraphQL is affecting everybody who works on any sort of web projects at all. So having more people in the room, designing a schema or knowing how to send a GraphQL query is really valuable. And so getting everybody on the same page is usually what these organizations are avoiding for a long time and then realizing they want to do. Brian: So when you say beginners, you're not really working with beginner beginners, mostly? Eve Porcello: For the most part. Yeah. So there is a GraphQL course that we teach to anyone. So anyone who wants to learn it. My brother came, with all the sorts of people, but aren't programmers. But we also tend to teach engineers, so non-beginners. Brian: Non-beginner engineers versus beginner non-engineers. Eve Porcello: You got it. Brian: I got it. Nailed it. Eve Porcello: Have I made things make sense? I am a teacher after all, so their communication is key. Brian: Hey, I've been at least 12 of these episodes, so I'm a professional. Yeah. I mean, the reason I asked that question is, there are a lot of different options, right? Like if you were wanting to learn something related to the frontend or just programming in general, actually it's, I don't really know what to call it exactly. It's its own teachers, but they're businesses of one and they've created their own business. And so they're trying to figure out like, how do you differentiate yourself? What are the different types? Brian: I talked a little bit to Jessica Chan about this a couple months ago. Like, what is the learner to do when looking for resources and how do they find? Is too crowded? I asked her, I was like, "Do you feel like there are too many people teaching?" And she said, "No," which is like, "Was she supposed to say yes?" Right, Brian? But she was saying like, "No, because I think that there's lots of room and it's important to find a teacher who fits with you, who fits with your learning style." And I thought that was really a perfect answer. Is there a question on your future? Yes. Do you feel like, is that something you would agree with or is there something I'm missing? Eve Porcello: No, I totally agree with that. I think that going through any learning process of learning anything, you're going to find your people, you'll find your teachers who resonate with you. And I see this in my own company, I'm a very different person as a teacher than Alex, my husband, who we're teaching the same stuff. But sometimes there'll be people who want to join Alex's cult. They'll follow him to the end of the earth to just listen to everything he has to say. And they're so obsessed with everything he has to say. Other people resonate or feel like my content is more resonant for them. And it is literally the same stuff, but it's the speaker who is delivering the message. Eve Porcello: And I also think that if I hadn't started teaching earlier on in my career, I wouldn't have found the footing to kind of be where I'm at today. So I don't think there's any... people shouldn't hesitate to share what they know, even if they feel like, "Oh, people have done this, or there's already so many React courses or testing courses, or there's one person who's specifically identified as the teacher of that." I think that's kind of, we can get away from that idea, I think, because there's so many people who are getting into web development, there's so many empty web development jobs, and there's a lot of opportunity for people as teachers, as, I don't know, content creators as engineers to kind of do things in their own way and go on their own path with that. Brian: We could probably spend at least a half hour on where, a content creator, which isn't my favorite phrase by the way. But there is no other alternative, well, I don't really... that could mean so much. But I know I get it, because no one wants to be an influencer, but I talk about that enough when I get on here, it's like who is a tech influencer or a dev influencer. And it's like, "I prefer you not call me that." Eve Porcello: For the best. Yeah. Not to say that ever. Brian: Exactly right. That's usually how it goes. I mean, my other question is, what are the patterns as you go in and teach? Do companies have similar problems, do learners have, or students have, which is the word I just get into my brain, students is that word. What are the things that you kind of see over and over again? And so the idea is maybe if you're listening, you don't feel so bad about not knowing a certain thing or having this question. Eve Porcello: I think that's something we see a lot is just that people hesitate to be a beginner at the thing they're learning. We, as I said, teach a lot of back-end engineers, how to use front-end technologies and sometimes there's resistance on that because it's different, it's a different approach. And they're already an expert in the other thing that they do, so that they don't want to start over again. But I think we're constantly having to start over again as developers. I was just making a little diagram on a slide the other day, about how you learn something, you get good at the thing, the thing is obsolete, and then you have to learn a new thing again. It's the nice little circle of learning. Eve Porcello: And so I feel like there's hesitation with that at times. So people don't want to start over, but we always kind of have to, because things are constantly changing. And everything we say is a best practice today will be thought of as a foolish thing and something that we can't use in the future. But that's something we encounter a lot, is just kind of resistance to change and resistance to technologies, inevitable evolution into other things. Eve Porcello: As far as a specific example of something we're running into a lot, because we're teaching a lot of GraphQL courses is, just kind of everybody is starting from scratch on something brand new, and it's a big communication shift. So I think that taking extra time to talk about communication and kind of team management in a GraphQL sort of way is something we've been trying to do, even though it's not typing into a computer, but talking about how to collaborate on the schema or how to conceptualize how your API is built, things like that, that might be a little bit different than a traditional technology class. So yeah, those are the things we've been running into lately. Brian: I don't want to go too deep because then you'd work for free, but I am curious how do you- Eve Porcello: Go for it. Brian: ... team management in a GraphQL way. I don't know what that means. Eve Porcello: Yeah. I didn't explain it. So that makes sense. And it wasn't really well explained before. So basically the thing I see a lot at companies that are rolling out GraphQL is they have three to five people who love GraphQL. They're experts at it, they love it. They want everyone to love it as much as them. So then they try to do some sort of an internal lunch and learn type thing or less formal meeting where they get everybody together. And then they explain all of the hardest and most terrible things about GraphQL, ironically, because those are the things that they're running into in their day-to-day work. But it doesn't bring everybody along to feel comfortable with the shift. Eve Porcello: So when I talk about GraphQL team management, really when you're talking about GraphQL, you're talking about an API that is describing all of your organization's types. So your users, your products, what are the fields on all of those things? And how can we build this one document so that it can support all the different apps that we're building. Designing that document well is kind of hard and it involves a lot of people, but getting everybody together to work on that project together of designing a good schema, I've seen a lot of successful companies making that migration. They really include a lot of different people. Eve Porcello: So it's not like engineer versus product manager, it's everybody coming in together and just being like, "This is what we actually need." And then, because that document is so important, then everybody can go build their part of the app based on that single source of truth, sort of. So I would say, it's hard to include everybody because it feels like, "Well, we moved to React and we moved to Node, and it was just engineers participating in that." And it's like, "Well, that was fun." But guess what, GraphQL, it's A, semi straightforward to get involved in that process. And including everybody in the process, I think is a really good idea because then those people become champions of GraphQL, they get it. And they become people who are advocating for engineering resources on your GraphQL migration in a way that they wouldn't before. Brian: Now I understand. Eve Porcello: Okay, cool. Thank God. Phew. Brian: Well, I was just like, "I don't get it, but I'm going to say, I understand." Eve Porcello: Yeah. Just gloss over it. Just like, yes. Brian: No, actually, I was thinking, is there something about GraphQL that lends itself to that kind of... because if there are so many tendrils that go out and then it requires real coordination. If you just decide, we're going to start using React, and I just picked that randomly, is there something that you could just go, "Okay. I guess that's seems like we should do that." Eve Porcello: Yeah. I think it touches a lot more people in the organization. It's not just front-end folks making that decision as a team. You need a lot more buy-in. So there's a GraphQL summit event you can check out that happened at the beginning of April. And a lot of big companies like Expedia and PayPal were talking about how do they roll this out? And no one was really talking about how the technology shift was hard. It was all communication and cultural. So I think it's sort of interesting to see that play out because everybody has to be on board in a way that you can get, as you said, a much smaller group can buy into React. Whereas, kind of the whole organization has to buy into GraphQL. Brian: That feels like a tough sell of it to have a summit about, to be like communication and cultural stuff. And you're here to like, "I came here and talk about GraphQL, now I have to be friends." Eve Porcello: Yeah. Yes. You have to be friends. But I like it. That's the pro quo. There is like, "To work with GraphQL, you have to be friends." And that's a good thing, ultimately, because I think it'll help build pretty cool products based on that. But yeah, there's a hard shift because it's all about communication. Kate: We had Dmitry Vinnik on here a couple episodes ago and he works with Facebook open source. And he was saying, when they accept a project, it needs a logo and documentation. And then it's just like, then they work on the technical stuff. Eve Porcello: Totally. That's so cool. Kate: Okay. Logo, step one. Eve Porcello: Step one logo. I'm sort of working on a project like that right now. Which is really funny, but I felt like if we have a logo, then we'll do the project, right? It's all come together [crosstalk 00:26:51] what happens. Kate: Right. That could be a job alone. It's just like, thinking of logos for these projects. Eve Porcello: Totally. Brian: That's definitely someone's dream job is to come up with logos. Kate: Might be mine. Eve Porcello: Future career. Yes. Kate: Seriously. I'm curious, this is kind of taking a step back a little bit. Can you talk about what you taught to Yahoo and stuff at all? I mean, what did they want to learn? Eve Porcello: Yeah. So this was probably, we started teaching there in 2013, 2014 timeframe. So it was a lot of JavaScript and then Yahoo is actually... and a lot of Node.js because they were moving to that at that point as well. And that's where we learned about React. So they had a frontend library called YUI. I think other people might pronounce that differently, but I'm going to just confidently stick with it. That was their in-house UI library that they had a conference for. And so we were teaching a workshop on YUI at that conference for a couple of consecutive years. And then one year they were like, after we had scheduled it and everything, they said, "Well, we're deprecating YUI in favor of React." And we were like, "Oh great." And then we got out of the room and we're like, "What's React? We don't know what that is." Eve Porcello: So we were very lucky to figure out what that was, but then we started teaching React at Yahoo as well. So those were kind of the main things we taught at that place. And then there were other kind of... we taught at Macy's a course for their new hires that would teach them everything they needed to know for the web, because their CS graduates mostly knew Java and needed to know more... Java or C++ or other things that were back-end. They needed to have a better command at the frontend. So we taught them everything from CSS to accessibility, to JavaScript. And that was a funny time of my life because everyone was so young and they were all like best friends cause they were starting their first job together. And I felt very old, like a college professor. I don't know, there is no story there, but just a strange time. But they were able to kind of jump into that role where they had to know things about the UI and contribute to those types of projects. Kate: Interesting. Yeah. It does seem like, as we've done these podcasts more and more, there is kind of, I don't know if disconnect is the right word, but it's like, you have like a CS degree but then there's also so much to be learned after that. And I think that's, I mean, a lot of our content at LogRocket is, "This is how you do this thing." And it's almost like you're practicing law or something. It's like you're just re-upping your knowledge, but you're not practicing law, you're an engineer. Eve Porcello: Totally continuing education credits all the time. Yes. Kate: Right. Eve Porcello: You don't get credit for it, you're just expected to know. You just have to it. Kate: Right. Brian: Yeah. But that's great. I wouldn't have much of a job if people weren't constantly Googling stuff. So there is that, I don't have to actually do it. I just ask people, "Please help other people build things." I don't actually have to build the thing, so it makes things way easier, way easier. I don't have to do any kind of building or worrying. And I would also say that young Java engineers are pretty famous for their enthusiasm, general spunkiness. Eve Porcello: Extreme enthusiasm. Yes. Brian: I mean, I can maybe guess, but I do think it's interesting that so many companies point to somebody you would consider a backend engineer and just be like, "You're going to learn some front-end stuff." And then the question is like, "Well, how much do they really want to?" So that's going to be a weird scenario for all involved. I'm sure some people are like, "Cool. I've wanted. I've had some interest," and others that are just not interested. Eve Porcello: Yeah. I think for my perspective, that's changed a little bit over time. There would be really vicious kind of pushback on that stuff before, because JavaScript was considered just not a thing and for just clowns who put buttons on the screen, which I mean some truth to it. But I feel like JavaScript has the influence, it's kind of unmistakable at this point. You have to learn some JavaScript and the respect level for front-end developers has gone up so much lately. Because it is so much you have to learn. And I think that may be shifting a little bit, but people seem a little less hesitant to participate in the classes than they used to. But there were some tough days in the classroom just with people like, "This isn't real, go away. I have to be here for work. There's no reason for this." But now it seems, there's a little more energy and positivity around it, I think. Brian: That's cool. I'm trying to think of- Eve Porcello: You're like, "No." Brian: No, no. I'm not like that. Not at all. In fact, I was going to say, the closest we ever get is when one of our tutorials or posts or whatever makes it to our programming or something where there's a population that is not just web devs. And we get told how much we suck, or how dumb... and that's a gross, accurate statement. But it is interesting to see how it goes. It is also the internet. So thin skin doesn't really worked for us. Eve Porcello: Yeah. Brian: That's okay. Eve Porcello: I know the feeling. Yeah. Kate: Eve, I was going to ask, I guess, what would be some advice you would give to someone who wants to get started in frontend, either back-end engineer or I guess, anyone starting out? Where does that thread start? Eve Porcello: I think it starts by picking a program or picking a lane a little bit. I think when all of the JavaScript frameworks sort of exploded it, there was a temptation to learn all of them or to teach all of them. And resisting that temptation is probably a good idea. Even if you pick the, "Wrong thing," focusing on one thing, focusing on angular, right? If you learn that really well, you'll develop a strategy for learning. And that will kind of get you to a place where you're comfortable at that and maybe you could get a job using that technology. And then maybe you're you switch jobs or your organization decides that you're not an angular shop anymore and you only use React. You have learned how to learn a thing and a lot of the same language features, it's all JavaScript will apply. Eve Porcello: So you're going to be able to be more successful in that transition than I think if you try to learn everything at once. So I think consistency is more important than anything. And I'm saying that I do that, but sometimes I don't. I want to be more consistent about everything I do. So just tiny habits, style, you can do things for a couple minutes a day, and then you're a little farther than you were yesterday. So that's something that can be really hard because it feels like, "Well, learning a new thing is hard. I'm going to have to study this for 24 hours." And then, I do this all the time. I'm like, "Well, I'm going to focus on this for 10 hours today because I have to know it." Eve Porcello: And then by the end, I'm like, "I never want to do that again. I never want to use that language again. I hate programming." And realistically I don't, but I have burned myself and if I just did it for an hour, a couple of times a week, I'd be a lot further along. So I think that consistency piece is important and also focus on one thing versus everything. Because you can get drowned in the soup pretty easily. Kate: I just heard the term a tutorial hell, where it's just like, you just can't stop doing tutorials. And while, I don't have that problem, I feel like, that could be a very hard problem. Eve Porcello: Not an affliction I have, but no. Yeah, I think getting past the tutorial and trying to build your own thing is something that is a good idea. This is something that I, again struggle with too. It's just like you take a tutorial and you're like, "Well, I did it." And then you kind of believe, and you don't apply what you've learned. But even just taking the example that someone built and turning it into something with your personality or, or interest in it, even if it is a private GitHub repo that no one ever sees in their life, it's probably a good idea to do. Just because it's sort of fun. I don't know, if you really like boating, you can take the, I don't know, the shopping app that someone built in their tutorial and turn it into shopping for boats. And I don't know, make little boat jokes or whatever, but that's a very weird specific example. Brian: Like shopping to buy boats or buying gifts for boats? Eve Porcello: Yep. You heard me. That's what I said. Brian: Because if you want to buy your boat- Eve Porcello: That's what I meant. Brian: Yep. Got it. Okay. [crosstalk 00:37:02] Nope. [crosstalk 00:37:06] I need to... nevermind. Why pylon? Who hasn't just been like, "Where's that boat carousel that I could slide through and see all my boats?" Eve Porcello: I want to buy one or more boats and I'd really love for the one-stop resource for that. And so ideally, I should build it. Brian: I think that's two really great business ideas we've had in this conversation, which is the GraphQL motto we came up with. Which is just figuring out if you're going to work on GraphQL to be friends. By the way, if money comes out of that, I feel like I'm owed some of it. Eve Porcello: Of course. Brian: And then the second part is, a boat shopping app. Which we can go both ways. Like I said, we could either, make it so you want to buy multiple boats or you'd like to buy boat presents. Shopping for boats. Eve Porcello: That's a great idea. Hadn't thought about that angle, but I think that's worth investigating, totally. Brian: You should test. Eve Porcello: We'll do some research. We'll test it. Brian: For sure. This is the point where the audience bales entirely. They're like, "You know what? This is not-" Eve Porcello: I hope this is longer. Brian: I just think that this is the end of that. Cool. I think we would probably have hit a natural end here. What do you want to plug? What do you want to talk about? What should people go find out about you or something else? Eve Porcello: You can look at moonhighway.com. We're going to put some new tutorials, we're sort of filming, all this stuff that we've been teaching in classrooms for the last couple of years finally and putting that online. I think that's about it. graphqlworkshop.com is a new course that I'm putting out that should come out this summer as well. So I'll plug, howtographql.com, I have nothing to do with that. That's a great site- Brian: That's what I was going to ask. Eve Porcello: For GraphQL. Brian: Who's doing a great job that's not you. Eve Porcello: Yeah. Stop talking about yourself, you self-involved idiot. So yeah, howtographql.com is a great one, I would recommend, what else? There's the Apollo Odyssey. So Apollo Odyssey is built by the dev [inaudible 00:39:11] team over at Apollo, and it's kind of like everything you need to know to get started with GraphQL. There's also a brand new graphql.org site that is launched with a pretty cool FAQ and GraphQL is now kind of administered by a foundation. So that's kind of cool for the future of the project, because there's going to be all sorts of big companies and vendors who are doing cool stuff with GraphQL involved. So I feel like it'll stick around. So that's a good sign for the future and they're putting out a lot of cool resources for free to get people into it, get them hooked so you can check that out too. Brian: I mean, yeah. If you get a foundation, that's a good start to longevity, I think. I don't how it works. Eve Porcello: Yeah. Totally. That sounds real, right? Yeah. Brian: Sounds really real to me. Cool. Thanks so much for coming on. Eve Porcello: Thanks so much for having me. This is so much fun. Brian: Come back. We'll do the same thing, with boats and stuff or not boats. We're just really going to beat this dead horse. Enough already. Okay. Bye everyone. Brian: Hi. Thanks for listening. Please remember to like, subscribe, email me if you want, even though none of you do. Go to logrocket.com and try it out. It's free to try, then it costs money, but yeah, we'll see you next time. Thanks.