Daniel Roe - AUDIO EDIT === Paul: [00:00:00] Hi there and welcome to Pod Rocket, a web development podcast brought to you by Log Rocket. My name is Paul and joined with me is Daniel Rowe. Daniels is the Nux team lead, and we're here to talk about N Lab with a big news and announcement joining Vercel. There's a lot of nuance to this conversation and many people are interested in what does this mean for Nux? What does it mean for Nux lab? What does it mean for people who use N with Vercel? So we're gonna dig into it all, and we have the man here to talk to us directly about it. So welcome to podcast Daniel. Daniel: Thank you. It's a real pleasure to be here. Paul: So that's the big news. It's Next Labs joining Versa. What was the inception of that? ~Did, ~did they come to you guys? Were you just like hanging out and you're like, by the way, like we would be happy to integrate. Talk to me a little bit about that. Daniel: ~So I think I first, ~I first found out about it,~ um,~ from Sebastian. ~Um, who, so if, if, uh. I, I, ~I should say that,~ um,~ Knuck Labs is a company that was created by Sebastian Japan. ~Uh, ~Sebastian and his brother Alex, created n uh, originally. ~So, ~although I'm,~ I,~ I lead it now,~ I, I, ~I wasn't around ~at the, ~at the time and I definitely didn't create it, even [00:01:00] though ~sometimes people.~ Sometimes ~people, ~people seem to think I did it is not the case. ~Um, and, ~and ~he, he, he created,~ they created a company at N Labs, which has created products and services in the n ecosystem. ~Um, ~and they sponsored me. ~Um, ~they sponsored me for a few years, but, ~um. ~I should say I, you know, I wasn't,~ I was~ an employee ~at, ~at Max Labs. ~Um, ~so I don't have maybe ~all the, um,~ all the inside,~ um,~ details on exactly the initial approach. But,~ uh,~ Sebastian let me know. ~Um, ~I think over dinner he said, oh, by the way,~ I,~ I just wanted to say that,~ um,~ that Baal have reached out ~that, ~that they're actually very interested,~ um,~ in acquiring next labs. ~Um, ~which,~ uh, yeah, that was, ~that was the beginning of it. It happened pretty quickly, I think ~after, ~after that conversation. I dunno how long he'd been,~ uh,~ chatting Tomo ~or, ~or the team there. ~Um, but, ~but yes, that's how I found out. Paul: ~And so next Labs, like you said, it's a company suite of products. Those products just remind us, that's like dv, kv. Um. Things that I would like reach into like, Hey, I'm on V zero and I can like plug in this and, and plug in that. It's like an ecosystem that is analogous to that stuff, right.~ Daniel: ~So, um, there, there were a couple of offerings. So they, they, and I think like many successful companies, it started with, um, based on people. So rather than a single offering that they had initially, people were willing to invest because it was Sebastian and Alex and they had already built something like next, and now they were gonna build things in that ecosystem.~ ~Um, and Sebastian, I think has always been very good at aligning incentives. Well, so building tools and products that don't compromise the independence of n for example. So, um, and, and we've always tried very much to keep the separate, so Nexus has a framework and independent framework. It has different governance, it's controlled by N Labs has been, but Nux Labs created a number of products over the years based on the.~ ~Um, the team. So as Sebastian and Alex figured out good ideas, they would create, create products, try the market, create an MVP. So some of those products have been Volta, which was a better way of handling your GitHub notifications. Dock, which was a, uh, theme, a premium theme around, uh, around, uh, n We're building content based websites, documentation websites, uh, next UI Pro, which was a premium, um, set of components and layouts built on top of N ui.~ ~Uh. Next studio, which is a way of editing markdown files in your get repo, but accessible to, uh, content editors and people who might not be familiar with the get workflow. Uh, but it featured some great stuff like live preview on your actual website. Um, and, uh, next Hub, um, most recently, which was an admin panel basically for your, for your next website.~ ~So it deeply integrated with CloudFlare to provide stuff like access to kv ai. Uh, databases and lots more. Um, and that was one of the most ergonomic ways to deploy to, to CloudFlare, um, with Nux. Um, but all of those things were, were separate. So we tried very much to keep, keep the distinction clear that Nux was a independent, free open source framework.~ ~Uh, and these products that Nux Labs produced were, um, a separate commercial offering from Nux Labs. Um, and at the same time, I think a lot of people wanted to support Sebastian. Um. Uh, and, and I, I, I, I think, supported, um, these products, um, as, as, as a result. Um, and Sebastian equally, uh, really saw, I think, you know, it's a, it is a question for him, but really saw Nux Labs as a way of making development on next sustainable.~ ~Um, so.~ Paul: ~That's, so the timeline's really helpful because I think what a lot of people ask about nux, the N Labs and next piece gets fuddled, so that's very helpful to hear about.~ And so like this product suite. That,~ uh,~ Knox Labs has been working on over the years, the pieces that stuck and the pieces that people use, are those gonna transpire likely into plugging into versel infrastructure and then being reskinned in a way that is,~ um,~ it's like just for Knox. Like it's the same stuff, but it's running on versal bones, it's [00:02:00] integrated into their system. Or is it gonna be maybe a res souping, a rewriting,~ a,~ a reforming of those primitives that you might find from Nux Labs? Daniel: So the three,~ uh,~ products that are sort of most active right now? ~Um, well, ~four, I. Next UI Pro,~ um,~ is the first one. ~So it's, uh,~ it's been a premium theme and what's gonna happen is that it's going to be made free and open source. So it's going to be rolled into a new release of next ui, which I think is scheduled for September, so pretty soon. ~And, um,~ and yes, everyone's gonna have access to it. ~So that's, um. ~But that's not specific to, to al and that is going to, it's gonna see obviously continued development. ~Um, ~and Benjamin Kak is,~ uh,~ leading that. He's done an amazing job and ~um, um, ~that's really very exciting. Then there's a next studio, ~which has been. It's, uh, it's, ~it's been closed source and it's going to become open source as well and self hostable so that people will be able to have the same kind of experience. So previously, obviously it was a single vendor, so like a cloud server. So ~you would, ~you would sign up to no studio and then you would be able to integrate that,~ uh,~ hosted version with your website, [00:03:00] whereas now you'll be able to spin up your own instance of not studio. And integrate it with your website. ~Uh, ~and it will be open source as well. So, again, that you should be able to host that anywhere. ~Uh, then next, I'm trying to make sure I don't, don't forget any of the, the products~ and next hub. ~Um, ~and this is one of the most exciting for me. ~It's, ~it's,~ uh,~ also going open source. ~Um, ~but more than that it's,~ uh,~ going agnostic. So previously it was. Like an interface to CloudFlare. ~Uh, ~and,~ uh, you know, ~CloudFlare has have a phenomenal suite of products,~ um,~ which made a very good choice for the MVP, for Nux Hub. I have been for,~ uh,~ quite some time asking Sebastian to make it agnostic because one of the things that we really stand for as a Nux team,~ uh,~ is for things to be. Swappable and for people to have choice about where ~they, ~they deploy and ~uh, ~where they choose ~to, ~to put their products. ~Um, ~and I worried, I think I've worried for a while that the fact that it was on CloudFlare, which is a great choice to deploy next. ~Um, ~but I worried that people thought it might be the only choice. ~Um, ~so anyway, he's going to be making that agnostic,~ um,~ which should mean people will be able ~to, ~to use it,~ um,~ with lots of different providers. Obviously for sale would be one of those. ~Um, ~but equally, CloudFlare will continue to be. ~Um, and the, ~[00:04:00] so that's, I think one of the things I'm most excited about and people will be able, again, to self-host that. ~Um, ~even at the moment, next hub ~is, uh,~ it's not a service that takes over your account, so ~it, it, ~it basically. Creates resources in your own CloudFlare account and gives you a better way of managing them and integrating with your next projects. ~Um, ~so ~it's, ~it's not like it's a whole set of infrastructure,~ um,~ providing all ~the, ~the kv or the databases. ~It's, ~it's more ~like, uh, ~it's a coordination layer. So if you've ever come across Laravel Vapor, for example, it was a project ~that, ~that did something very similar for Laravel and AWS It enabled you to run your Laravel app. A,~ um,~ serverless application,~ um,~ and again, it connected into your,~ your, your~ AWS account and then provision resources and managed them for you. ~Um, ~so ~I, I, I, ~I really like that as a model because it means you're ultimately still in control. ~Um, ~I dunno exactly what that's gonna look like. Sebastian and Han are working on that,~ uh,~ getting next hub agnostic. ~Uh, ~but that's definitely something to follow. That'll be following with ~very, ~very ego interest. Paul: And I guess the benefit of going somewhere like Versal is one of [00:05:00] those agnostic. Arms that you could grow onto. ~It is, ~there's a lot of magic that CEL can provide out of the box for if you want better images, path caching. ~There's, you know, ~they have infra, so ~there's,~ I'm seeing like good opportunities of, hey, now all of that. There's bits and bobs that might not have been easily reached for in some other adapter and now you're agnostic, you can supercharge it. ~Um,~ Daniel: ~So with, yeah, ~so I mean, we've built next from the beginning to have a lot of primitives that are swappable. So we have the next image component, for example, and I think we have over 20 providers you can use for ~the, ~the image CDN layer. We have a fonts module, which again, I think six or seven different providers that you can use,~ um,~ to get your fonts, whether that's Google fonts or Bunny or font share or font source or whatever,~ uh,~ Adobe. ~Um, ~and the same is true with,~ uh,~ databases and key value stores as well. ~Um, ~and the ~whole. The, ~the great thing o obviously people can choose, they can,~ um,~ build their own,~ uh,~ project like Lego building blocks. This is what I want. And, ~you know, ~I'm gonna grab KV from, uh, sash and I'm gonna grab my,~ uh,~ compute from Hena and I'm going to like, they could do that. [00:06:00] But obviously one of the nicest things is when you have a zero config set. And so we at the moment have zero config deploys for next to a number of providers, including CloudFlare and the for AWS Amplify. And I think there are others. ~I ~I don't want to say that's ~the, ~the only few. ~Um, ~and it's amazing because we are able to detect your environment when you're deploying. Azure Static web apps is another. We're able to detect your environment when you're deploying, build the right kind of output that that platform is looking for, and as much as possible, use the primitives ~that ~that platform provides. So platforms that provide a whole set of primitives ~are, ~are best for that zero config because it means. If you haven't chosen ~some, ~some other provider you can just hook in ~to, ~to what is available,~ uh,~ on the platform. So CloudFlare have a great set because they have, ~you know, ~databases, they have key value, they have,~ uh, the, ~the sort of compute as well,~ uh,~ and image optimization. So we can do that. ~Um, ~and yes, Versal, hopefully. I have exactly the same. And I think that's one of the things that we will be able ~to, ~to really hook into,~ um,~ so that you get that, that create zero config experience there. But ~I, I mean, ~I just to be very clear, our aim [00:07:00] is to have that experience,~ uh,~ as much as possible wherever we can. So wherever ~the, ~the deployment provider exposes, the primitives, we're hooking into them so people can have that zero config experience. Paul: Derek, 'cause why not? More the merrier ~for, ~for the options you can give folks.~ ~ Daniel: ~Well, it's, I, I think the, the value of of, so,~ I mean there are two different things going on here. So one is the value of ease of use and frictionless,~ um,~ development and deployment. ~That's really,~ that's a really high value that we have. ~So the idea that the stuff that you are struggling with and working with should be.~ ~Your, ~the challenge ~of building your,~ of converting the business idea into code, right? The frictions that exist shouldn't be coming from the framework you choose. They shouldn't be coming from the platform you choose. ~You know, they, ~they should be things that you are you,~ uh,~ working out in terms of your coding. ~Um, ~so the friction from the framework should be nil as much as possible. And so if we can have a zero config deployment ~for, ~for example, that is just great. It means people can iterate quickly, they can make changes, they can build things. ~Um, and uh, ~and so we want that. The other thing that we want is openness and choice. And I think choice is one of the fundamental values of the web, almost as close as possible to a fundamental value. ~Uh, as, ~as you can find. ~I mean, ~[00:08:00] even if you think about the original Unix philosophy ~of, ~of like composable pieces of an operating system that worked together,~ um,~ to create something that is,~ uh,~ powerful. ~Um, ~if you think of the world as having lots of interchangeable. Lots of decentralized choices. ~You know, ~you can have any email server you want. You can have any,~ uh, you know, ~DNS or you can have any name server you want. Like ~the, ~the, there are a lot of things where ~you, ~you get to choose. That's what the web looks like and walled gardens. Are unique in a way,~ um,~ to this current,~ um,~ era of web where you have social networks, which are,~ uh,~ like Twitter for example, closing the doors. ~Um, ~preventing API access preventing people ~from, ~from accessing it freely. ~Um, uh, ~which I just wanna say is, it's very foreign to the whole idea of this web is ~an open, ~an open garden for people to, to,~ um,~ to access. And ~so, ~sorry, I'm getting too philosophical, but ~I mean, we, ~we really want both of those things to be true in Knuck. We want to have choice, so you can choose to go wherever you want. Knuck should be making it possible for you to make those moves easily. Now, it shouldn't be a adding any kind of lock in. There's nothing more, ~uh. Uh, ~annoying,~ uh,~ [00:09:00] or it ~really, ~really makes you resentful as a user if you experience that. So ~it's, ~it's about openness and transparency, people being able to move easily, and it's also about,~ uh,~ frictionless development. ~So, um, ~that zero config experience where out of the box, everything just works and then you can customize it infinitely on top of that. And I know we're talking about deployment providers here, but this is also true with a lot of other things. When. For example, vet. We use V by default. It's a great experience. People love it. The fast,~ uh,~ hot reloads,~ um,~ the amazing ecosystem of plugins. But at the same time, we are com so committed to the idea of choice, that you can pick other choices. You can pick Webpac and RS Pack, which we maintain, but you can build your own,~ um,~ adapter to use any bundler or plugin ~that, ~that you want. And in fact, it was that desire that led us to create an Anthony Fu created ~a, ~a package called Unplug in which actually lets you write, build plugins that work seamlessly across,~ uh,~ any bundle, whether that's,~ um,~ any of those or es build or roll down or,~ um,~ farm or really ~any, ~any different kind of bundler because we want people to be able to [00:10:00] choose. Paul: ~I have to find the mute button right there. Yeah. Power ~power. Of choice. And I think even though you did get philosophical, Daniel, that philosophy is what a lot of people are asking about right now. ~I'm sure you've been on multiple conversation where people are, you know, they're asking questions about like, what about this and what about that?~ ~And it and it, it's interesting to hear you put it through the lens of philosophy 'cause that's what it's all coming back to. ~And on the next team, modularity, pluggability, and it's. Helpful to hear you paint it in the zero config bubble. ~Like, ~like that's the user story that kind of ~like ~lets those,~ uh,~ ethos come through. ~But it, it, it applies to, to much more than that. Um, off of the features that they might be more right, because there's gonna be more things that like Versal has then maybe it's not index right now. Um, or maybe in N Labs it, it, it doesn't exist yet. ~Do you see anything,~ um,~ that might be special or only possible due to the partnership between Nux Labs and Versal that might fall outside of that bubble of the North Star of being everything pluggable and co-mingling? Daniel: ~So the um. So, I mean, I do, ~I do think ~there's a, ~huge opportunity for next,~ um,~ at Vaal, because Vaal had this philosophy of framework defined infrastructure, the idea that what frameworks need to create,~ uh,~ good performant, powerful apps should guide the infrastructure they create. ~Um, ~and that is a, it's obviously very flattering,~ uh,~ as a framework author to basically say, Hey. What should we build? ~Like what, ~what are the constraints? What do you need? ~Um, ~and so that's an [00:11:00] opportunity that obviously N Js have had. It's an opportunity that Sphe could have. It's now an opportunity that next have as well to say, this is what we need. These are the primitives that we need in a deployment provider. ~Um, ~so that it's not just that ~we're, ~we're working with what we have, but actually we are specifying. We're saying this is what we need to create an amazing experience for next. ~Um, ~and ~that is, ~that is an incredible offer,~ um, to,~ to a framework. ~Um, it's very, it's, ~I hope it's very clear the direction that's going. So this is not for sell, saying, Hey, we have this, these, this framework, this infrastructure change next so that it matches that it's actually, it's the other way around. It's ~sort of ~how do we as a framework. Look, what do we look for in a provider? What do we want? What are the kinds of features we want to be able to integrate with? ~Um, ~and that's, so yes, that's absolutely something that's going to ~be, ~be a,~ um,~ a real boon, I think for next. And I hope also for next users on va,~ uh,~ because they'll be able to access these primitives that we are specifying. ~We're, ~we're basically saying this is what we need to create great experiences for Nux. ~Um. The, uh,~ in terms of ~that, ~that modularity, you are asking whether ~there's anything ~I foresee ~any, ~any area in [00:12:00] which,~ um,~ like it's not going to be aligned and the, ~I mean, ~the answer is that. We care so strongly. I mean, I, I was saying the other day to somebody that,~ um,~ the open source developers ~we're not, ~we're not rational,~ um, in, ~in a sense,~ um,~ because we're very driven. And I guess actually this is probably true of everybody, right? So you're driven very much by your values. They're things that you care about that are,~ um,~ paramount, that really matter most of all. ~Um, ~and I think for people who are working in open source. We're not working in open source to make money. We're not working in open source ~to,~ as a career path. It's much worse to work on open source. ~Uh, ~you work in open source because you believe in it. You believe in the values that ~you, you, you, ~you're working for, you care about the community you're working with. ~Um, so, um, ~ ~Like, ~so do I think ~that, ~that we're going to change direction? No, the answer is absolutely not. But ~I'll, ~I'll answer another question as well. Do I think Ver gonna ask us to? And the answer is also very much no. So ~I, ~I talked to quite a lot ~of, uh,~ of folk in leadership in the Runup. 'cause obviously I had to decide, ~you know, ~is this something I want to be part of? I could have continued leading the next team, for example, not at [00:13:00] Versal. And,~ um,~ very much the vision. ~I mean, I don't, ~I don't wanna to step in and speak further cell in terms of talking about vision, but very much the vision is open. ~Um, ~and I think ~that ~that makes sense in all honesty, because if I look back to my choices, ~I mean, ~I've been CTO of a company. ~I've, ~I've led a, I've had SA startup. ~If, ~if I'm looking at where I choose to host my. My stuff where I want to build. I don't want to build somewhere that is keeping me,~ um,~ because I can't leave. I want to build somewhere where I choose to stay there because they have the best experience. ~Um, ~and that is something I really think of a cell get. So I think,~ um,~ at least talking to, to,~ um,~ folk in leadership there, that is very much what I see. That,~ um,~ the aim isn't to put barriers. Up there to prevent people from leaving or to lock them in. It's to create a good experience so that people don't want to go. ~Um, that's the, ~that's the best kind ~of ~of lock in to lock in,~ uh,~ because ~you, ~you choose,~ uh,~ to stay. ~Um, so, um. So, ~yeah,~ I,~ I think that's really aligned. ~Um, I mean, ~any open source project has to be very aligned with where it gets its funding, because you don't want to be pulled in a different direction. It's bad for ~your, ~[00:14:00] your own mental health. As a maintainer, I can say, if you feel like ~you're, you're.~ You're having to compromise between different objectives that you have, like ~different, ~different goals. And if one of those is your own value set, that's a real problem. ~Um, ~that's not something, that's not a situation where I could stay, for example, if I felt that was the case. ~Um, ~but that's not what I feel. I feel there's this remarkable alignment of an open vision for the web that really is something we've believed in for a very long time,~ uh,~ in the Nux team. It's something that, that, from what I can tell,~ um,~ um, v are very much,~ um,~ backing and signing up to. Paul: What about things, uh, Daniel that are external to the immediate next offering? ~Um, ~so things like V zero, which is like incredible. For prototyping ideas. 'cause you're talking about ease of getting it out there. You could almost say like scaffolding components and whatever component library you have goes in that bucket as well. It's not the core value you're solving, it's copying a chassis end component. It's setting up a layout or whatever. So do you guys look to march towards that North Star by integrating with tools like that? Daniel: ~So~ [00:15:00] the aim for me in terms of the purpose of next is to solve developer problems. So ~it, ~it only exists and I think a lot of,~ uh,~ meta frameworks. ~Right. ~Should only exist to solve the problems of their. Users, developers, those problems are things like, how do I create a performance website? How do I reduce boilerplate? ~Like ~there are a lot of problems, but one of the problems is how do I get going with an LLM? How do I get it to prompt me? Good components. So as long as those are the problems people are facing, those are problems we need to solve as framework orders. ~Um, it's not because it's a,~ it's not because LLM generated code is the North Star. It's not the North star. ~It's, it's a, ~it's ~a, ~a need that people have. People are a north star. And because people have that need, we absolutely want to make,~ um,~ LMS play that with NI think that the opportunity to integrate with V zero as in to work with V zero team to make,~ um,~ n support better,~ um,~ indeed excellent,~ uh, is a, ~is a ~real, ~real plus. ~You know, ~I'm forward to. Paul: Yeah, it'd be really cool if I could hop in V zero and choose ~like ~which flavor of components ~I, I ~I wanna build. ~Um, ~that to [00:16:00] me makes V zero feel stronger. 'cause now that's more open about where I wanna take the work and deploy it. Daniel: ~well, I, ~I feel that's ~a, ~a good example really of a sort of win-wins kind of situation where ~you, ~you think this improves V zero, it improves ~a, ~a native,~ uh, sort of ~feature offering of a cell. It also ~makes, ~makes things better ~for, ~for next users. Paul: ~Getting. Yeah, I,~ I am getting the vibe of ~like, ~those who collaborate will. I like how you said that's the best lock in. 'cause you're just the best and you didn't have to do anything. It's one of the best experiences as a user, ~you know, you know, ~if I just want to go where it's easiest or I can deploy my app the fastest. ~Um, ~what about,~ uh,~ the difference between database providers? ~Uh, ~some folks will say,~ I, you know, ~you have serverless, so I'm using neon. I have self-hosted Postgres. If you're on CloudFlare, there's certainly orchestrated node environments that some might find tricky if you've never worked with ~like ~a CloudFlare worker or if you've never worked with a durable object. ~Um, ~do you see that palette of primitives expanding when you guys start working with Versal, do you see them changing or becoming more nuanced in any way having,~ uh,~ serverless versus [00:17:00] nons serverless offerings? ~Or do you see that? Um, yeah, cur curious on your take there.~ Daniel: ~I mean, ~I think I put an asterisk here. ~Uh, let's, ~let's see what happens. ~So the, ~I think the breadth of the primitives that are out there at the moment for databases that,~ uh,~ we pretty much already support. So we've got a,~ um,~ a package called UN Storage, which is in the MJS ecosystem, which we use in Nitro,~ um,~ to,~ uh,~ provide. Layered access to different key value stores. ~And we have another, um, package, which, but, ~which also supports a number of databases. And we have another package called DB zero, which integrates with different ORMs,~ um,~ to provide access ~to, ~to databases ~in a, ~in a sort of provider agnostic kind of way. Now ~our, ~our database support, particularly given that we have,~ uh,~ I think. ~I think~ it's maybe two or three ORMs that ~we, ~we ~sort of ~have built in adapters for. ~Um, ~so ~I mean, ~I think that's probably something that you would see ~sort of ~increasing, maybe ~different, ~different support. But ~I don't, ~I don't feel like it's the fact ~that, ~that the, a number of the team are now employed at the cell is going to change that particularly. I think that's something that we would've wanted. Anyway. ~Um, and probably,~ so I think if you look at the trajectory ~of, ~of Nux and Nitro or, and Nux in general, so Nux version two, for example, the server was [00:18:00] connect,~ um,~ a sort of simple node based server, and it really only existed because we needed some kind of server, but it was ~very, ~very minimal. ~Um, ~and ~you could, ~you could actually attach your own, you could have ~different, ~different kinds of servers,~ uh,~ different flavors, and you could put your own next app in as a middleware. So it wasn't really very server focused. As part of moving into next three and building that from scratch, we created a server, we created Nitro,~ um,~ and in fact it started out as Nux Sigma, we called it. And then it became Nux Nitro, and then it became Nitro on its own, and we actually brought it out into unders organ, and now there's actually a nitro js org. ~Um, ~and so our trajectory is moving to take advantage of some of these things. Some of the things that you would look for in a full stack framework like Laravel, for example. So we have,~ uh,~ CR job support,~ uh,~ with nitro tasks. We have KV support, we have caching. We have databases. Like a lot of these things are things that ~you, you, ~you need to have,~ uh,~ in a full stack framework. And so we're gradually moving down that line of providing 'em, like providing these features, building them in, doing that in an agnostic way as much as possible. Provider pattern. [00:19:00] So if you're looking to see the direction we've been going in for some time, we'll continue to go in. Yes, that's the direction we're going in, but ~I'm not, ~I'm not sure I would say that's related particularly to the, to,~ um,~ the next team. ~Um, uh, four of, ~there are eight,~ uh,~ members of the core team. Four of them are joining and the other eight remain independent. ~Um, ~so don't think it's related to this particular, ~um. ~Of or hiring of those team members. Paul: ~What do you think is the, um, is it, ~is there gonna be a,~ uh,~ difference in the communication style or general domain? Of ~like ~those team members who are independent and those who are in verse,~ um,~ how do you see that changing on the N team? Daniel: ~Well, so we've, it's,~ this isn't a sort of a fresh problem,~ um,~ because we've had N Labs,~ uh,~ and Nux Labs as much as possible. We've tried to make the boundary quite clear. The Nux Labs are supporting,~ or,~ or have supported, they have funded a number of the NUX team members, but they don't. Represent, they are a separate company. ~Um, ~and so we have a governance document, for example,~ um, uh, ~nux slash governance on GitHub. ~Um, ~and it initially said that,~ uh,~ that ~Nux Labs had had no, uh, authority over the, uh, what did say, um, next. Yeah, ~next has no authority of the next project. ~Um, ~which is a very interesting thing to say [00:20:00] that ~you, ~you might think because Nuts Labs has done so much good for the ecosystem, but we really wanted to make it very clear that,~ um,~ the project and its roadmap and its direction is independent. It's community focused. It's community based. It's not a company thing. And that feel of the project, what it's like, what it's like to use Nux or be part of that community is ~very, ~very important. ~Um, ~and that's been true at Nux Labs. So the fact that now we've actually added in that the cell has no authority over the next project and next remains an independent opensource project, we've updated the governance guide to ~say, ~say about the cell as well. ~Um, ~I think nothing changes in terms of our feel or what we're like or the direction we go in or how we're governed. ~Um, it's, ~it's, uh, stays. Paul: ~Yeah. Stays~ Daniel: we are. And ~I, I mean, I, ~I really do feel from my point of view,~ it's,~ it's ~sort of ~just upsides. So we have the benefits of being part of the vessel, broader team, being able to ask for infrastructure, being able ~to, ~to work with folk. ~Um, ~and at the same time we have ~the, ~the independence,~ um,~ to be next as we have been for the last how many years. Paul: ~Well, ~Daniel, this is a great way to put a bow on the [00:21:00] conversation and we can move into the quick round, ~Which~~ is essentially gonna be us rapid firing. A few things, uh, pertaining to that which we talked about. Um. The goal is to answer it in less than 30 seconds, like sentence or two. Um, so I have four bullet points here, and we'll hit them one by one.~ Okay. So the first one is, what was your first thought when the Versel deal became official? Daniel: So that was, it was probably pure adrenaline. ~Um, ~and yeah. Talking to people, communicating it, making sure people understood what we cared about and what was gonna happen. ~That was, uh,~ that was my ~first, ~first concern. Paul: Most exciting thing brings to the next ecosystem because we talked about a lot just now, so ~I, ~I think you have to pick one. Daniel: There's so much to pick. And actually this is one I didn't say. I think it's the people at Vial. So there are such hugely talented folk,~ um,~ from think people like the next JS team or the SVE team,~ um,~ to people building infrastructure. And ~um, ~that is ~a real, ~a real boon something. ~I'm, ~I'm really looking forward to. Paul: What's one worry you had going into the deal? Daniel: My biggest worry was making sure that n stayed independent. ~Um, ~so everything I was looking at, all the communication, pretty much all the conversations I had were all geared around this. I was reassured at every stage. ~Um, ~so it's not something I'm worried about,~ um,~ at the moment, but ~that's, ~that's absolutely where I [00:22:00] started that. Paul: ~In one sentence, ~what does this partnership unlock for an average developer? Daniel: I think we have opportunities to make ELL a better place to deploy next apps, and I think it ensures the long-term sustainability of Next as a project for building great web apps. Paul: Long-term stab stability is like one of the best things you can ask for. And another great way to put a bow on things. ~Uh, ~Daniel, it's been a pleasure hearing about this huge change that's happening,~ uh,~ for. Next in terms of the fiber of how it's built. But it's awesome to hear about how everything we've discussed is about it staying the same and staying independent ~and, ~and simply expanding the feature set. ~Um, ~I've certainly learned something about n 'cause ~like ~having only done the Hello World app with n you know, we talked about different data providers,~ um,~ how we can plug in. With the server CR jobs and stuff. So there's a lot to check out. Interesting to see where ~you, ~you bring the project. ~Um, ~yeah, just appreciate your time ~running, ~running through it. ~Um, ~it's a confusing topic and it's web dev so everybody's up in arms at all times wondering what the hell is gonna happen. So it's great to,~ uh,~ be reassured,~ uh,~ and walked through,~ uh,~ the thought process of you and the [00:23:00] Nux Labs team. Daniel: It's really nice Anders, or tips. Paul: Awesome. ~Well, ~thanks again Daniel. It's a pleasure having you. Daniel: Thank you. It's a real pleasure to be here.