recording-1_2025-01-14_10-39-10-vic
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[00:00:00] Guy: Good day listeners. Welcome back to the Geo Heroes Podcast today. I'm super excited to talk to my friend, Vic Donald. So Vic welcome

[00:00:12] Vic: Hello?

[00:00:13] Guy: Vic. Maybe you could just start us out by giving a little introduction of yourself.

[00:00:18] Vic: Yeah, sure. Happy to. Vic Donald, geotechnical engineer with I think about 46 or 47 years at it. So I'm at that age that a lot of people would say they retired but can't do that, have too much fun in this profession. And I still enjoy the people I work with in the things that I do. ~Guy, ~I grew up ~in, ~in the deep south Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and wound up going to LSU, got a. Bachelor's and a master's degree there in civil engineering. My major professor down there Mohammed Tuma was an excellent professor that really was pioneering some work in CPT and Picon and that got me involved way back then in 1980s, early [00:01:00] eighties. Had a great, a little company that I worked for there that allowed me to split my time between grad school and actually in the university there at LSU.

[00:01:09] So I learned a lot about what we were doing in school there in the real life of work. Just enjoyed that deep south adventure was a kid that, to hunt and fish. ~Wasn't ~maybe I wasn't the best student but I certainly did enjoy my mathematics and things like that.

[00:01:26] Became an engineer as a result of that and always loved the south and could never leave the south. The furthest north I've gotten is Nashville, which is where Diane and I are making our forever home here in Nashville, Tennessee.

[00:01:37] Guy: Awesome. So let's dial it ~back the clock ~back a little bit and talk about your early years. What were you like as a kid?

[00:01:43] Vic: Like I said, raised in the south. A young boy raised in the south learned how to hunt and learned how to fish and probably get his dad to help him work on the old pickup truck that, that they had scrambled a few since together to get him around. So that's what we did. We loved to have fun doing that.

[00:01:59] The work that we [00:02:00] did back then was probably. I remember down in Louisiana it was a very agrarian area that I grew up, and we'd get to take weeks off during the spring ~in, ~in high schools to go help the farmers haul their hay into the barn that time of year. And so I think we'd make like a nickel of bale ~to, ~to, to a group of three guys to get all that in there.

[00:02:19] So it was a lot of fun doing that, a lot of comradery, and we just, man I couldn't think of a better place to grow up.

[00:02:25] Guy: It sounds like you worked hard through your youth and had a good time, but how about organized sports? You do anything like that when you were a kid?

[00:02:31] Vic: Oh yeah, ~I was, ~I went to a very small school, so I played football and baseball and I thought I was really good because the school was so small, I got these awards for like best this or that. And come to find out it was just in such a small sample set. Did really enjoy it and got to play a lot, so that's what was the fun part about that.

[00:02:49] Yeah. No ice hockey though, down in Louisiana, ~so we.~

[00:02:51] Guy: That probably makes sense. So I get outta that a lot, their southern values. From your growing up, ~do you, ~would you care to articulate what some of those are that have followed you through to [00:03:00] this day? ~I.~

[00:03:00] Vic: Yeah. Mom and dad ~were I lost him at a fairly young age, but ~were great mentors to me. Dad taught me how to work, dad had a high school education and worked for a natural gas transmission company. That's when we moved around to those three states ~to, ~for him to get a little promotion, we would have to move to another compressor station.

[00:03:14] And I just watched my dad emulate being dependable. Doing what you're being asked to do by your company and taking care of business. And ~even ~another thing that I think I learned from him was even when you felt like you were not being treated fairly within your profession, you would still do your best and know that your work would show up for you at some point in time.

[00:03:33] And it did for him. And I think that hard work has been a little key to the ~su ~success that I've been able to see. ~Guy.~

[00:03:39] Guy: How about at school? Were you active in clubs or activities, or what were your interests when you were in grade school?

[00:03:44] Vic: If it wasn't sports that, that's probably my interest waned and went to the, those hay fields I was talking about, or the creeks or the ponds that we love ~to, ~to go fishing and hunting in. Yeah. Most of my activities, extracurricular were ~in, ~in the athletics.

[00:03:59] Guy: Were you a [00:04:00] math and science guy at that age?

[00:04:01] Vic: I wasn't until I took Algebra one and, that made me want to become an engineer ~guy. I, ~I thought, how cool is this? It just made sense, an equation. If you do ~one ~something to one side of the equation, you could do it to the other side and you would still have that same equation. Man, that locked in with me, and I think I'm a civil engineer today because of Mrs.

[00:04:20] Cowans 1970 something algebra class that just locked in with me, that there's a real logic to this. And as a result I decided to pursue something in mathematics.

[00:04:31] Guy: Did your passion turn into good grades in math and science?

[00:04:34] Vic: I always believed that the, A students taught the B students to work for the C students. And so I was somewhere in that BC range doing a little bit of working for the C students. And when I became an entrepreneur, maybe a little bit more of the C student side of things.

[00:04:47] Guy: You talked about the hay fields and the hard work part. Did you have a more formal job at any time during your high school years?

[00:04:54] Vic: Really. The odd jobs working in the grocery store, doing a little mowing, a few lawns, that sort of [00:05:00] thing. The hauling the hay in that we talked about. But right after I got outta high school you'd ~got to do in Louisiana is you ~typically, ~you could ~go get a job working offshore for some of these natural gas exploration drill rigs, ~these big ~these big jack up drill rigs.

[00:05:12] And so that's what I did every summer when I was in college was I would go work offshore and I. Two things happen there. One is you can make pretty good money back in the day doing that, and you couldn't spend it because you're out there in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico. And so there was nothing you could do but go put in your bank account, which helped when fall came.

[00:05:31] Guy: Is that scary out there on the rigs?

[00:05:34] Vic: Yeah. Taught me a lot about safety and the fact that there are some things that you cannot control. You're on about a one acre spot. With 40 other people. ~Some, something like that. ~And in fact, one of the rigs that I was on the week after I vacated to go back to school, it combusted, it caught on fire and destroyed the entire rig.

[00:05:54] And they got everyone off, but barely I learned early on about safety is in your control [00:06:00] and the control of the people that, that you work with so building a safety culture became very important to me to know that we were counting on each other. I saw some really serious injuries that to this day the way I do things.

[00:06:13] Guy: That's a pretty good takeaway. ~On the front line there.~

[00:06:14] Vic: Yeah.

[00:06:15] Guy: So you mentioned about how algebra and opportunity to go to school inspired you to go into civil engineering and geotech, but maybe you could just get into that a little bit more detail now.

[00:06:25] Vic: I knew I wanted to be an engineer guy and I said I also wanna make money. I wanna make as much money as I can. So I went and looked up, I don't know what you looked up back in 1979 when I, no, I'm sorry, 75 when I, back in 1975 when I graduated high school, but I saw in a listing that a chemical engineer had the highest starting salary. So I said I didn't know much difference between any of the engineering fields. I'll be a chemical engineer. So I enrolled in all the chemistry classes that would be required for that. And I decided pretty quickly that this brain was not [00:07:00] cut out for chemistry or chemical engineering. And so I started to look at what. I could really wrap my head around. I couldn't ~have my ~wrap my head around protons and electrons and that sort of thing, but I could understand concrete and steel. And so I decided to move into that and still applying the mathematics and all the things that go along with civil engineering, structural design.

[00:07:22] I thought at first I wanted to be a structural engineer until I discovered the geotechnical classes, and so that fit me very well.

[00:07:30] Guy: What appealed to you about geotechnical engineering at that time?

[00:07:34] Vic: The same thing that appeals to me today ~is no, no project. ~Is, Alike the next project that you undertake is going to have a soil profile a groundwater issue, ~a something, ~a constructability issue that hasn't occurred in your career. Exactly like that. It's kinda two different snowflakes, right?

[00:07:52] None or alike. So it's fun to always be a pioneer. What's the first thing we do? Soil. Exploration. [00:08:00] And so we get to go out and explore on every project that we do. And I discovered that in my first soils class where someone from a consulting firm actually it was Woodward, Clyde consultants came in and talked to our class about what it meant to be a geotechnical engineer.

[00:08:14] And I went home that weekend and told my dad, I know what I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a geotechnical engineer. You know what he asked me? What's that?

[00:08:22] Guy: What's that? ~Yeah.~

[00:08:23] Vic: So we went through the explanation of that. And the other great thing about geotechnical engineering that I found early on that advised me it was a good idea was you move into construction with it.

[00:08:32] You don't just design and put the plans out, but you're actually in the field dealing with the variations that occur. Even though you drill the borings or did whatever you did, you're gonna find variations. And so you get to be a part of problem solving in the field.

[00:08:46] Guy: Has certain pragmatism that comes from that. So I know you fairly well, Vic, and I know there's a lot of chapters to ~your life ~your professional life. So would you be able to share some of those, so you're coming outta school with an undergraduate degree and now you [00:09:00] are where you are.

[00:09:00] A lot happened in between there.

[00:09:02] Vic: Yeah, how much time you got ~because.~

[00:09:03] Guy: Let's just try and keep it to five minutes or so.

[00:09:06] Vic: I can generalize. So I mentioned early on that I decided to go to grad school when I was working for a small consulting firm that had two offices and one was in Baton Rouge right down the road from LSU. And so ~my ~my boss there allowed me to do the things you would do if you were ~an ~a grad student.

[00:09:25] I was able to. Work behind drill rigs in the summer, run laboratory tests do some what we called back then drafting work, that sort of thing. And I could hang around the geotech and sometimes they would even let me go to lunch with them and oh, that was the biggest thing I could imagine, to hear what they were talking about and how they drill the shaft to do this or that.

[00:09:45] So it was really ~an a, ~a great time of learning for me. And so I stayed with that firm when I got out. Until one of the vice presidents of that firm moved into a new business. And by the way, back then, that's when the geo [00:10:00] environmental practice was really exploding in the early eighties as CRA had promulgated all types of regulation that particularly the petrochemical industry that we worked around in Louisiana had to deal with.

[00:10:11] And so we had the opportunity to do. A lot of good work for them with this other firm. And so we moved more into the ~Jew ~environmental practice for several years. And then I got the itch at a very young age ~to, ~to work for myself. And in about I don't know, 32, 33 years old, I was one of the major owners of a small firm that we created there in Baton Rouge.

[00:10:34] And through various acquisitions and divestitures, et cetera, we had a group of, I don't know, 10 to 25 people. That we grew and actually had offices in Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee Alabama, and created ~a great ~a great geotechnical and geo environmental and materials testing consulting practice until, a company called Terracon asked us if we'd be [00:11:00] interested in being a part of their much ~lower, ~larger organization. This was in oh, about 2008. And my quote was, I'm having too much fun. I'm growing this business. I'm my own boss, loving life. And we talked and I said, but it looks like a good firm if I ever would want to, sell the business, it would be to Terracon. And so time went by and we had more conversations. I decided it was ~best ~in the best interest of my little company. To be a part of this bigger company. It was during the great recession, 2009, that we made the decision to do this. And for those of us who have been through ~that, ~that those were unprecedented times of trying to cashflow your business, find enough work to keep the people, find the courage, to release the people that you didn't wanna release because you didn't have the work for 'em and try to help them assimilate.

[00:11:49] In their life post the company that they worked for. So I just felt like I had a big brother that could help me in that situation. And so it was really a blessing that we [00:12:00] merged with Terracon back in 2009. And as a result of my particular passion for the geotechnical profession, the leadership of Terracon saw ~a, ~an ability for me to. Help lead the geotechnical service line for all of our, at the time, maybe a hundred offices. So I took a new role of building strategy and organization around our entire service line, and was able to do that for about. 10, 12 years. And I'll let that position go about three years ago in order to become a senior consultant now with Terracon working particularly on some of the more innovative things that we do in the practice, not just at Terracon, but in the profession in general. And that's really been a lot of fun in the past three years to work specifically on these things that we know are the future for the company, because I'm an innovator at heart.

[00:12:58] Guy: Yeah, if I had known anything about Vic [00:13:00] Donald, I know you are an innovator at heart and you have a tremendous vision. One of my favorite people to talk to about the future. Now I wanna get into that in the next chapter, but before we finish with the Terracon, it seems a couple things. Are you more of a geotechnical generalist, or are you an expert in a couple of things?

[00:13:18] Vic: Guy, for a lot of my practicing years I don't really do much geotechnical engineering anymore. I've been in management since I started the service line leadership, ~but. ~Back in the practice, I did a lot of work in the solid waste industry. I did a lot of work in the ~Jew ~environmental industry where we understood groundwater flow and groundwater contaminant, transport and cleanup scenario and all that sort of thing.

[00:13:38] But beyond those two things, I would've said I was probably more of a generalist in the profession.

[00:13:43] Guy: You probably had to be to manage such a diverse group as well, I would guess.

[00:13:47] Vic: Yeah. We had grown, even at my little firm, ~we, ~we had grown to about, oh, I don't remember the number. Maybe 120, 130 employees. So at that point, you're doing a lot more management than you are in engineering.

[00:13:58] Guy: From our discussions it [00:14:00] seems Terracon has been, given you a lot of freedom to pursue your passions, which clearly helped Terracon, but I think it's also enabled you to see the industry more generally. And that's what I really admire. So let's switch ~the ~the chapter now.

[00:14:13] We'll unless there's anything else you wanna share about how you got to where you are, and I certainly could pause for that.

[00:14:19] Vic: In order to help the transition, I would mention, Terracon is present throughout the United States, and as the national director of the service line, I was able to talk to our practitioners in Seattle, Washington. And then Miami, Florida, and all points in between. So it was great to get a perspective of the geo profession throughout the country, and that allowed me to really think as we moved into some of the more innovation things that we're talking about where the opportunities are and where the threats are as well.

[00:14:50] Guy: So those aren't just different technical challenges. There's a whole backdrop of community mindset approaches that go with different parts of our country. Is that [00:15:00] overstatement? 

[00:15:01] Vic: No. And to be more specific to that, one of the things that really, me was the problem of commoditization that our profession was facing, particularly a national organization like Terracon, where a potential project had three or four other competitors that were putting their bids into, the proposal that had a very tight specification written around it that would tell you the number of borings, et cetera. And it really did aggravate me to think that our profession was succumbing to being order takers. And as a result of working nationally, I was able to really work. And Joel Carson helped a lot as we. On behalf of GBA spoke to the issues around commoditization, and I think we were able to really enlighten a lot of our clients that it's not the best way to go is to get the lowest bid for a project.

[00:15:55] Guy: Yeah, GBA really tackled that issue well and spent a lot of time on it. ~I ~and [00:16:00] again, that we're switching to the next future of the geo professionals. But when you think about commoditization was such a big challenge through, the 2010s and ~or ~really from the recession on, and maybe even before that, but in some ways you would think we would've solved that problem with the labor shortage that we have.

[00:16:15] And yet it doesn't seem like commoditization is totally behind us yet. What are your thoughts there?

[00:16:20] Vic: ~It continues to be a threat. ~It continues to be a threat that challenges our professionalism because. I talk to our practitioners routinely. How much time do you invest in thinking about a project? If you invest 20 hours, then you would like to charge the client more than if you invested 15 hours, but you might need to invest the 20 hours to give the client. The project and your company, the project that you should render. So it becomes a threat to our professionalism. It becomes a threat to the overall ~satisfaction ~satisfactory nature of the project as it unfolds. Change orders happen fast and [00:17:00] furious early in projects where unanticipated conditions are encountered. Or foundation movements prior to ~construction, ~final construction. So it's best to get that right early on, and I do believe that we have improved upon this substantially. But Guy, I do wonder, is it just because of the shortage of the workforce and the tremendous uptick in the needs of the geof compared to 15, 20 years ago?

[00:17:29] Guy: It seems like there's an opportunity for a profession ~is, ~would you agree?

[00:17:33] Vic: Yes. And we just need to, as geo professionals, we need to remind ourselves of that on a daily basis. ~That, that we, ~I love to compete with others in the profession that care about their client and that well executed job because ~that that, ~that's that tide that raises all of our boats and we can keep doing it that way.

[00:17:51] Guy: I'm sorry to keep jumping around, but a question just popped in my mind. ~I go back as you progressed through your career, ~Vic can you share a story of mentoring that you received and why the advice and counsel that you had [00:18:00] received at that time was so impactful for you?

[00:18:03] Vic: Yeah, and it's a real short story and you would think it wouldn't have much impact, but it really changed the way that I took on my perspective. Of business. I reminded you I started a firm at a very young age, and obviously it was a very small firm and we put a proposal together and actually won a project from a very large oil and gas refining company. And we did the project, it was a tank farm, and we did the project and, finished it up and they asked for some additional work. And at a very small company, young age, I was afraid of scope creep. Not because I've been taught to be afraid of scope creep, but because I needed more income and scope creep without the compensation was not gonna work for me. So I asked the client for a change order. They asked me to, stick it out. [00:19:00] There would be more work coming and, we were forging a good relationship. And in, when they mentioned that, they mentioned you were not the low bidder. We were talking about bidding a few minutes ago. You were not the low bidder on this project, and so let's just hang on. I let a few months go by, but the question always nag me. I was a very young and very fresh and very flimsy from a structure, a financial point of view, consultant. Compared to my competition, why did they select me to do that major project? Why would they have not gone with the big boys down the road that had the financial strength, et cetera, given what the importance of what we do, we did forge a great relationship. We did a lot of work, but I got my courage together and I asked that question one day, why did you pick me when I wasn't the low bidder on that project? And I'll never forget, I can still see the look on this lady's face. She said, Vic, you remember you came over to our office and you explained, I.

[00:19:57] What it means ~to, ~to build a large [00:20:00] oil storage facility ~and ~on soft clays and how you have to stage, load and evaluate poor pressure, dissipation, all these type things. And I said, yeah, we had a great time that day. She said, yeah, we didn't, they were mechanical engineers. We didn't know much about what ~we were talking ~you were talking about, but ~when we, ~when it came time to. Select who we would hire for that project. We remembered how excited you were about the project and we just didn't have the heart to tell you no. And so if you think about that, I was conveying realistically my passion to meet a client's needs there. And as a result, I won a major client for many years, and I believe that as professionals. We should always be showing our clients and our employees our passion for doing well on their behalf. And it'll take you a long way. So that was a life lesson that I learned from an unexpected mentor.

[00:20:55] Guy: So we talked a lot about that technical part, innovation and geographic [00:21:00] expansion and needs. But let's get into the people part of our business and I guess this would be a segue to the future. And without biasing you, although maybe I already am. ~What are, ~what's the stickiness of geo professionals as we look to the future?

[00:21:14] Vic: There's a lot of ~thing ~professions that can easily be overtaken by. AI or some type of technology driven, data-driven transformation. And if I were in some of those professions, I would definitely be concerned about the future. The geo profession can as well, but there's a lot of art to our business as well as science. There's a lot of knowledge of the day I talked about. Tank loading and how to observe poor pressures and what felt right to the professional versus what the number said. And some of that can be displaced by digital technology. But I believe the art of our [00:22:00] profession will always be there.

[00:22:01] Our ability to understand if a contractor is asking these questions. How do we need to respond and what can we do to get the project back on track if it's off track on, so on, et cetera. So I do believe that we'll still have to sample the soil at rock and groundwater to understand ~what were there, ~what's there.

[00:22:20] Although we can have tremendous data driven, predictions of what we're going to encounter and we should, we still should verify. And I think that the need to do that and the need to have the art of what we do will always allow us to be the geotechnical, the geo environmental professionals that we were called to be, to start with.

[00:22:43] Guy: Fascinating. Dig into what is the art, what are the considerations that go into the art of geotechnical engineering? Environmental for that matter.

[00:22:53] Vic: Let's stick with geotechnical for this one, because a lot of the art is, we've worried about our risk in [00:23:00] our profession, the risk of lawsuits. You write a statement in a report, or you don't write a statement in a report, and you're embroiled in a dispute about responsibility. But ~in, ~in the case of geotechnical engineering. It's a great effort to understand your client's risk tolerances and risk aversion, and to let your client know that in many cases they should be driving some of the financial decisions, the risk versus reward decisions. And so now as we have an internet based way of communicating like we're doing right now, it's so easy.

[00:23:44] ~I. ~To see each other and talk to each other from across the country. You're in one part of the United States and I'm in another part. We can do that with our clients and we should constantly be communicating with them, evaluating what we know and what we don't know, [00:24:00] and the consequences of those knowns and unknowns, and what risk are they willing to take, and then document that very well so that the client, if they choose to take an economically beneficial route. That has some inherent risk. We documented their choice to do that.

[00:24:18] Guy: Yeah, that's fascinating because we have to think about ~what's, ~what are we really delivering. I'd be remiss if I didn't go into this in our podcast with you, Vic, that you are one of the unique people that. Both thinks a lot about technology entering our profession and isn't especially scared of it really sees opportunity in there.

[00:24:39] Could you just share with us, your take on changes in technology now and opportunities that might be opening up?

[00:24:46] Vic: Yeah, I love it. Maybe to a fault some people might say, but it occurs to me that we're gonna write reports today to send out to our clients that. Look a [00:25:00] lot like a report that I wrote when I was taught by that small firm in 1980 to do that, the only difference of significance is instead of binding it in GBC binders, we bind it in PDF binders and send it across the internet. We don't even take advantage of the opportunity to ~link ~hyperlink texts to outsourced ~op ~areas that a client could go for further information, like you can get on a Wikipedia page for example. So we need to train ourselves to embrace that basic communication technology of delivering our work more effectively. We have many clients now who don't want a report with all of our opinions and statements. They want our data with ways to visualize and evaluate collectively together. We're excited about introducing new ways. To deliver software that we oversee with our clients so that they can get better access to their information, make decisions more effectively than reading [00:26:00] a hundred soul boring logs and making a decision what the shear strength is for that lower clay layer there.

[00:26:06] There's so much more ability to dissect that data. And then finally, I think ~the ~the biggest opportunity that geotechnical engineers have is. Speaking of data is all of the data that we have ~is ~historically and that we are amassing today on a daily basis to compare, oh, a pile load test to sheer strength data that we had associated with that site, and then to document that for the future so that we're not just taking a new side on that says. We know that these clays have a certain adhesion value, but there's actual numerical data that we call to our fingertips ~and you ~and apply one more data set to that and we're building on this master database. The trick is ~getting that ~discovering your data in your own firm and understanding how to take advantage of that, and it's gonna cost you money. [00:27:00] To bring that in a way that you can use it effectively. So how do you monetize that? What can you do to have clientele appreciate that so much that you can make money, not spend money to pull that data in collectively for your own benefit and the benefit of your new clients?

[00:27:17] Guy: So ~I ~I recall a quote from you, and I'm gonna butcher it, but it was something to the effect of the billable hour is the enemy of the geof. Would you expand on 

[00:27:26] Vic: ~I think ~I think that all of us as engineers, and we're not alone in this. Find that our value is how many hours we spend on a project. And so we go look at our ratios. And your firm, I bet you looked at yours of what's our chargeability in this office versus that one overall how much did it change in the fourth quarter over the third quarter? And at the same time, we have technology analysts, coders, programmers, python programmers that are building ways to remove. At least 50% of that billable time from [00:28:00] the project, we can do this in one half the time. So we're stealing from ourselves if billable time is the way that we make our revenue and profits. So we've got to find a way to pivot from that. Billable hour is our value to the service that we provide. The data that we provide and the evaluation tools that we provide is the value. It's a tough transition, but those who thrive in the future will make that transition and should be working on that right away.

[00:28:37] Guy: Do you think that's more in the minds of the geo professionals or do you think that's what our clients expect? The hourly.

[00:28:43] Vic: I would say both. It's the stereotype. That we've been in all of my career and sometimes is your best engineer the one that should be working on the project for the client. Should that best engineer be working on the project for the [00:29:00] company to make you better so that you can change the paradigm of how you're billing.

[00:29:05] So I think we've gotta put a lot of energy into breaking a paradigm of that's our value. I know that a lot of our clients have just developed budget numbers. We work from everything from large projects, multimillion dollar, multi-year projects to a three week, in turn restaurant project.

[00:29:24] And all of our clients have kind of budget numbers that they're used to seeing what, how much fees they're charged for the geo professional. And can still charge those amounts of money so early on. The the automation that we build into it can be conveyed in higher profitability when you compare it to chargeability, but it's a false measure. We've got to start to look at revenue per person and headcount versus chargeable hours per and an individual. And that's an action that we're taking on, and it's quite a challenge,

[00:29:56] Guy: I hope some geoprofessional listens to this in the year [00:30:00] 2040 or something and says, Vic was right. ~We got that we made it. ~We made it happen.

[00:30:03] Vic: ~I think. ~I think we'll make it happen.

[00:30:05] Guy: So think ahead, Vic, and I really admire your skills here. 'cause you're interested in this, you consciously contemplate the future.

[00:30:13] What does our profession look like in five years and 15 years? We're as far out as you can imagine.

[00:30:19] Vic: I would caveat my crystal ball with, what are we up for? I believe that the geof that are. In charge today, you, me, those around us that are taking care of business will dictate a lot of what our future looks like. How much are we willing to lift our eyes from our computer to the profession that we work in and make a difference there? Because more and more we see technology and data companies and private equity and a combination of those [00:31:00] creating a metamorphosis of our business. And I said early on, I believe that the geo professional and our knowledge of the practice and the art of the practice will help us to sustain a viable place there. We could become subordinate to the data managers and the data scientists as a checker. So I think it's very important guy that, that we insert our role into these. Data driven solutions that we're creating for ourselves and data companies are creating for ourselves. And it's very important that we work with the professional registration the professional engineer registration because that's going to have its own overhaul.

[00:31:47] It's on metamorphosis and engineers are very resistant to change. There's a term in technology that's called. Fail fast. If you use that term in engineering you [00:32:00] send chills down people's mind, fail fast. No way. We don't. That can't happen. So there's a cultural clash that we've got to overcome so that we are still leading the charge when technology is doing our work for us and we're not doing work for technology.

[00:32:19] Guy: Vic, in the interest of time, we're gonna need to move on, but since I value your opinion on these things so much, and ~I, 'cause ~I really think ~you're ~you pay attention to this and you've had ~some of the just ~some of the best ideas that I've heard and I'm also personally interested in it. I don't wanna leave quite yet.

[00:32:32] So can you just think about, ~that ~your most important words of wisdom regarding the future and anything that we didn't cover? Feel free to elaborate now.

[00:32:42] Vic: Ernest Hemingway taught us to listen carefully ~what I forget the quote, but it's something to do with we are. ~We are constantly trying to decide what we're going to say next in a conversation versus listening to the person that's talking at the time he went on to say, observe the room. What in this room motivates [00:33:00] you? What discourages you? ~What, ~what should change? Something to that effect. I probably got it all wrong, but that's what I took away from the quote. And I would say as engineers we need to take a lesson from that, we need to listen very carefully ~and listen. ~Audibly listen ~and listen ~and see how these dramatic changes are changing the way that we work on a daily basis. And see how that makes us feel. How does it make our clients feel? And let's don't be sitting back passively observing. The changes. Let's lean forward and lean into these changes and create a benefit to our clients that they will feel better as a result of their exposure to the geo professional and that the new geo professionals who are considering this or some other degree in finance or the arts they would see a great career path because of what we've been able to do. To [00:34:00] observe the profession and tweak it in these critical times of change in a way that will be beneficial to those that we work with.

[00:34:11] Guy: Probably over summarizing, but effectively you're saying pay attention and don't be afraid to change.

[00:34:18] Vic: Yeah, observe for the need for change, and then have the courage and the forward thinking mentality to do that. I think engineers. I know I've been in this situation or pretty quickly to sit back and go, I hope this turns out all right. Make a difference. If that means getting in politics and making things change at that level, maybe that's where you're called to go, but make a difference in the profession.

[00:34:42] It's up to you.

[00:34:44] Guy: So again to your earlier point, not necessarily something you associate with a typical geo professional. So we're gonna have to be mindful about this.

[00:34:52] That's terrific, Vic I'm gonna turn the page to the next chapter and we're gonna get to ~the ~the famous geo hero speed round. I'm gonna fire off [00:35:00] a few questions and just ask you to, tell us what you're thinking about.

[00:35:05] I believe that geo professionals, at least for my taste, have the best reading list. ~I just. ~I've gotten some great recommendations from other geo professionals about books to read both on business and also other things. So what are your favorite books?

[00:35:19] Vic: Yeah, I've recently picked up a fairly old book, but I've enjoyed the heck out of, it's called Divided Highways. It by Tom Lewis. And that's really a review of the interstate highway system, how the United States went from very poor roads, obviously to the interstates that we enjoy today or sometimes don't enjoy today, and the cultural changes that made and the businesses opportunities that created.

[00:35:43] So as a. Entrepreneur, engineer. I really have enjoyed reading that, but God, I'd be remiss to say anything about my favorite books if I didn't mention. The Bible the inspired word of God that is passed down through [00:36:00] generations is a wisdom council for me. And if anybody wants to pick up Proverbs and just read some management literature it's throughout there.

[00:36:10] So ~that, ~that has been amazing to me that I can pick up ~the, ~these words and know that they've passed through generations to my eyes on any given day. Now, as I looked at books, that helped me in my career, I would think that early on, as I. Tried to be a very young leader Jim Collins. Good to great, spoke to me, and particularly about level five leadership and what it meant to be that leader that could inspire, the future for their organization. So I don't know that I modeled it well, but I knew it and I aspired to do the things that Jim taught me in that book. And then I ran across this book by Dan Pink called A Whole New Mind and this engineer with about 20 years experience, maybe 25. Heard an author say that the other side of my mind needed to go to work because my left brain, [00:37:00] I think it is, my analytical brain does great, but my abstract design level brain needs some activity.

[00:37:08] So I went to work and started looking at how. A drugstore entices you to come in and shop and how my report would be more attractive to a particular client, et cetera. So I learned a lot from that as I started to take a leadership level, particularly at a national company. And then innovator's Dilemma Clay Christensen has, that's just a tremendous knowledge for us to understand how to create. A disruptive change in a very successful organization, and that's been a real inspiration to me because the companies that I've worked for are very successful and success breeds a desire to not change if it ain't broke, you know that one. It was really great to understand techniques. To create changes that would completely disrupt how we're [00:38:00] doing things.

[00:38:00] And that's some of the things I'm working on right now as I start to reconsider with the company, how we deliver our geotechnical opinions and information.

[00:38:08] Guy: Fascinating. That's a lot of reading. I am taking some notes there. And for our listeners, we're gonna find some way to get all these recommendations to you. So Vic, you look back at your long history in the profession and then your current passion for the future of our profession.

[00:38:22] What's your optimism index at this point?

[00:38:26] Vic: I said it earlier in a little different way, and that is, it's up to us. We are going to have to step up and maintain a leadership level. In the universities, we need to help the universities as they train engineers up to know what their roles and responsibilities will be and engineering practice professional registration to make sure that is adhered to because I think we've got a lot of work to do there as we go through that change. And so it's very bright. If we are able to maintain a leadership level [00:39:00] attitude in these areas.

[00:39:01] Guy: That's a big caveat. So I'm gonna pin you down one to five. What do you think?

[00:39:07] Vic: Five or one.

[00:39:08] Really ~it's up to us. ~It's up to us. I said that I thought I was an athlete 'cause I played for a small high school. We can do very well. But it takes a lot of effort to do very well in throwing a football or throwing a curve ball, but in being an engineering leader. It takes a lot of effort. You have to learn the skill sets and you have to exercise them on a daily basis. The opportunity is there for us. I think it can certainly be a five and I believe it will do very well because of the need for our profession. But we have a responsibility that goes with that, and that is maintaining the skill sets at the highest level.

[00:39:45] Guy: Okay. Again storied career. You've done a lot. When you look back at that career, where do you feel like you've made your biggest impact career-wise, in your adult life?

[00:39:58] Vic: That's a tough one. I [00:40:00] really enjoyed. The result of railing against commoditization I could see in the eyes of many men and women that listened to those conversations that they got it and they knew that they needed a good geo professional, not a cheap geo professional. And so that has had a significant positive, of my career. I think that, remember the lady that told me how passionate I was and she couldn't deny me the project. I think that my passion for this has been an inspiration to people. It's allowed people to see that. They can do things beyond the things that they're asked to do in their job description. And, Maybe their eyes light up a little bit now when they talk about the possibilities of their job, et cetera. So yeah, maybe those two things,

[00:40:56] Guy: I feel that's influenced me a little bit. You made some passionate, please that [00:41:00] have gotten me excited about some things. Maybe that pushes us closer to the five on the optimism scale.

[00:41:05] Vic: Yeah, it would.

[00:41:07] Guy: So again the flip of that question is when you look back on your career would you change anything?

[00:41:12] Do you have any regrets that, I would imagine you're a successful person, so you're happy with where you are. And I don't mean to go back and rewrite history, but there are a couple turns you could have gone left and you went right. Anything like that you would be willing to share with our listeners?

[00:41:27] Vic: Yeah. You're right. It's hard to say that I would change things because I think ~the, this, ~the rote answer, I wouldn't change. A thing applies to me. My wife Diane and I was blessed with a wonderful wife ~of ~two weeks ago, we celebrated 46 years together, and four children and now they're married and we've got 12 grandkids, so have this wonderful family. They tend to get along for the most part. And so we did something right. I think Diana did a really good job of raising them, and I would hear from her from time to time about that, and that kind of goes to [00:42:00] a little bit of if there's a regret that we all probably would like to have spent a little more time with our family. In those early years as I was growing a business, you know ~what that's ~you're giving it all you got. And the kids probably could have had a little bit more dad time than I was giving them. And not just for them, but for me. So as a result, ~as ~the hobbies that I will take into retirement. Really don't exist. The hobbies are what we've been talking about today. How do we innovate in our profession and how would we use our data to our benefit better? But it's not about things that I've mastered outside of the office as a result of things that I enjoy doing. So yeah, if I'd have done anything, maybe it'd be a little bit better work life balance.

[00:42:42] Guy: That's an honest answer and I appreciate you sharing that. It's probably hard to acknowledge that, but perhaps one that many people share.

[00:42:49] Vic: Yeah it's about perspective, right? As you get close to retirement, I'm sure you start to think about, what's the next step and what have I done to prepare for that? So yeah, that's when it comes to my mind. ~I.~

[00:42:58] Guy: So one final [00:43:00] question for you, Vic. And you've offered a lot of nuggets along the way over these past x number of minutes. But one piece of advice that you would offer someone who's thinking about joining our profession or just joining our profession, with your perspective. What do you think is important?

[00:43:15] What would you recommend they consider or do. please share your thoughts.

[00:43:21] Vic: I would say that. This comes from my own perspective. Again, like I said, as I'm nearing the end of my career, ~where ~were there really positive things and it was stumbling into good mentors. So if I had to give a young professional advice, be more deliberate about that choose the, job that will put you in touch with men and women that you really respect and that you believe will take the time to be a mentor to you. ~Because, ~and it won't be one person maybe for a given time, it will be one person, but be very deliberate to ask them for that and don't just [00:44:00] suppose it will happen. Be very deliberate to do what Hemingway told us. Listen carefully. Observe the room, observe the office, what happens in this side of our business and why, and ask questions about that. ~I, ~I learned early on that some of those questions you thought ~I. ~Naive questions or questions that wouldn't be asked by more senior people because they thought they were naive questions, so they would go unanswered. ~And ~so have the courage to ask the questions after you've observed the room and listened to your mentor.

[00:44:33] And by the way, a mentor doesn't mean they do everything right. Consider what they're doing that could be improved and maybe. Talk to them about that and see where that would go with them as well. It's a great opportunity to work with others.

[00:44:48] Guy: Good advice, Vic. So I appreciate your time with us today. I've learned a lot. I find you a fascinating person and~ a really ~always interested in talking to you about the profession. And it's ~e ~even interesting for me to hear a little bit more [00:45:00] the details of how you grew up. But before we sign off, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get a chance to mention?

[00:45:08] Vic: When you just said what you said, it provoked a thought of. How beneficial this profession has been for me. And I would like to think that we should all be striving to say that as we. Get close to the end of our careers. And I'm not talking about simply providing for the needs of me and my family, which it's done very well. But ~it ~the rich opportunities to explore, as I talked about earlier to understand what happened on a project or what might happen if we do this or that to get to know your clients. So the profession has been. Very rewarding to me. And ~there were a time or two, ~there was a time or two that I thought about leaving it to move into some ~like ~sideline of this profession, maybe in real estate development or something like that. And I just thank God that I stayed, put where I am ~to ~so that I could [00:46:00] be a person that. Maybe if I'm not interesting, at least there's 40 some odd years of information that I'm relying upon that's all consistent about what the profession has given to me as a result of what I've tried to give it.

[00:46:12] And yeah that's what I would, that's the last points I would make for you, guy.

[00:46:16] Guy: So jumping out of it would be the opposite of a regret. ~You regret. You don't have to make.~

[00:46:19] Vic: Yeah. I'm glad that I stayed, put and did what I did.

[00:46:23] Guy: Terrific. Again, Vic, thanks for sharing a part of your life and ~your ~your wisdom and just your perspective. I think that our listeners will find that very interesting. I sure have. So again, thanks for being with us.

[00:46:33] Vic: God thank you for taking the initiative to do this. I do hope that it makes a difference. This and the collective groups that you're talking to can really be a tremendous, benefit for those who listen. So thank you very much.

[00:46:46] Guy: Okay, so that'll be a wrap. Thank you, listeners. We'll be back for another episode real soon.