GeoHeroes - Rich Johnson
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[00:00:05] Guy: Welcome back, GeoHeroes Podcast listeners. I'm really excited to be back with you today with our next guest, which is Rich Johnson. Hello, rich, you wanna introduce yourself?

[00:00:18] Rich: Yeah. Good morning, guy. My name's Rich Johnson. I am former CEO for BSK Associates, California based, geotech firm. But, i'm retired, happily healthy, enjoying my freedom and relaxation. Do a little bit of part-time, board work, but by and large I'm just living the life.

[00:00:36] Guy: Thanks for coming and sharing with us. Maybe we'll learn the secrets of how to position to live the life through this interview.

[00:00:44] Rich: Well, we'll see.

[00:00:46] Guy: So tell us a little bit about early years of Rich. What were you like as a kid? Where'd you grow up? Tell us your story.

[00:00:52] Rich: What formed me, huh? I grew up in the East Bay area, Walnut Creek, California. So, you know, east Bay of San Francisco [00:01:00] had a great childhood growing up. We lived in a pretty cool little neighborhood that was out in the middle of a bunch of walnut orchards. That all changed over time, but, uh.

[00:01:09] We went exploring. I lived two doors down from a community pool. I spent a lot of time in the water. A lot of time in the water actually. Just, having a great childhood adventuring, letting our imaginations work and just out playing and building and doing things.

[00:01:26] Guy: When you say water, do you mean swimming in a pool or surfing on the ocean or what,

[00:01:31] Rich: No, we're a little

[00:01:32] far from the ocean. Like I said, I was two doors down from the community pool, so I started swimming on the swim team there at age six through 18 when you couldn't swim anymore. I lifeguarded there. I taught swim lessons there. I was a water safety instructor, so I taught lifeguards how to be lifeguards.

[00:01:47] And I swam competitively through, for high school and other organizations that weren't at that pool, but , a lot of time in the water.

[00:01:54] Guy: So do you still an active swimmer?

[00:01:56] Rich: I'm not, I grew to really not like swimming very much. So for me now [00:02:00] I have a pool. I get in it, I cool off and I get back out.

[00:02:04] Guy: Okay.

[00:02:06] Guy: Well, I won't go down that road towards lifelong pursuit. But maybe you could interject that later, which where you, well, we're there right now. So what did you grow to not like about swimming?

[00:02:16] Rich: I used to always say that when the sun came up, my face was in the water and when the sun went down, my face was in the water. So much time doing laps, working out, you know, as a competitive swimmer. I just grew to really, in fact, my senior year I did not swim on the swim team in high school.

[00:02:30] I went and ran track instead because when I signed up for track, they couldn't talk me into swimming anymore.

[00:02:37] Guy: there's a lot of development in the San Francisco area. What does the East Bay of San Francisco look like now where you grew

[00:02:41] Rich: Oh it's overwhelmed and overrun at this point in time. We had tons of open space and there still is some up in the hills, up towards Mount Diablo. But tons of open space. Back then it was all, like I say, walnut orchards as far as the eye could see. And now it's just all homes and businesses. 

[00:02:57] Guy: So it sounds like you're a pretty active kid doing a [00:03:00] lot of stuff with in and around the pool and with people with the pool, I'm sure. How about your other pursuits? What was your schooling like at in those formative years?

[00:03:07] Rich: It was a normal childhood. It wasn't just swimming other sports in there as well. But school I went to actually for most of my elementary experience, I went to a parochial school. So I was kind of set apart from all my neighbors and whatnot. I didn't have them in my classes.

[00:03:21] I remember them saying that when we graduated sixth grade, we were reading at an eighth grade level. And it really made the rest of the school experience pretty easy. 'cause I was pretty advanced in terms of what they taught and whatnot. But I didn't mind it a bit other than I wasn't part of the crowd when I was around the neighbors.

[00:03:36] Parents turned us loose , in junior high to go to public school. So I went to a public for the first experience. I went to the public intermediate school and had to make all new friends and learn all new things and whatnot. That was a little bit of a challenge early on, but by the end of high school, didn't skip a beat.

[00:03:53] Guy: So that that seventh grade experience was at a much bigger school as well.

[00:03:57] Rich: Yeah, it was bigger and classes were about the same [00:04:00] size, but, you know, there was multiple classes at any one time. So yeah, it had I think about four or five elementary schools feeding into it. So yeah, it was a sizable population.

[00:04:10] Guy: As year seventh grade through, say 10th or whatever, where all the, you know, all the growth hormones are happening for, boys and girls. It's an interesting time.

[00:04:19] Rich: Yeah, it is. You know, we'd get in trouble for that at the parochial school if you had a girlfriend, quote unquote, you got sat down and talked to by one of the nuns.

[00:04:28] Guy: Huh, well, I guess they're holding you back, and figuring that would be for a future time in your life.

[00:04:34] Rich: Let that be somebody else's problem probably.

[00:04:39] Guy: So, were you a good student back then in parochial school where you were reading at advanced levels, or were you just keeping up.

[00:04:44] Rich: Yeah, no, I was actually a pretty good student at that point. I had the ability to be a good student all the way through but I learned in public school later on that, there was a lot to do other than the education piece. I got good grades and I learned the topics, but I didn't excel.

[00:04:58] I was not in the top 10 in the class, 10% in the class, anything. So, but yeah, had the capacity, but just didn't have the desire.

[00:05:08] Guy: What were your academic interests at that time? Were you gravitating towards math and science, or are you pretty much an open book?

[00:05:14] Rich: You know, I liked the science side of things particularly like the physics more than the natural science stuff. But no, my interest at that point in time was physical activity. In fact, when I left high school, I declared PE as my major. When I first went to college, I was gonna be a athletic type guy for the rest of my life at that point.

[00:05:30] Guy: So tell us about the choice of college. Where'd you go and how did you decide to go there?

[00:05:34] Rich: It was kind of a default thing. I got the end of high school and I didn't really have a desire to go any one place or another. A good friend of mine, had graduated the year prior. Guy I swam with that went to Chico State, so one of the Cal State universities. And so I just followed suit and went there and it was, like I said, just default.

[00:05:51] I was accepted actually to three different places, but that's the one I picked for whatever reason. 

[00:05:58] Guy: So you entered into that as a [00:06:00] PE major and somewhere along the line you changed course and you went to the geosciences. So tell us about that path. 

[00:06:07] Rich: I started taking all the obligatory PE classes and a lot of 'em I didn't really think were very interesting. They went down the lines of biology and physiology and whatnot, which I never really warmed up to. If I did, I wouldn't probably be a doctor today, but, in the meantime, I was taking general studies classes and one just happened to be a geology class that I absolutely loved. Interest from day one all the way through the end of it. And I also had two uncles who were geologists and remember talking to them about, all of the field stuff they did, they were out.

[00:06:36] In my mind they were hiking it. It really doesn't come down to that but it just sounded wonderful to me. So pretty much on the spot changed my major and became a geology major from that point.

[00:06:47] Guy: Okay, well now we're on a path that we can see converging to where you are right now.

[00:06:52] Did you go for an advanced degree or any epiphanies in the remainder of your geology curriculum?

[00:06:57] Rich: No. Like I mentioned earlier, I had the [00:07:00] ability but not the desire to be a student. And so by the time I finished my bachelor's degree, I was pretty much done. At least I thought I was but no, no advanced degree. I took a lot of classes, postgraduate but they were more towards the business side of things and, much later on, so, no, I didn't go after the advanced degree, and thankfully we didn't need one really back then.

[00:07:19] Guy: Was there anybody influential in your life at that point that guide you through school or into the major or into your career beyond

[00:07:27] Rich: No, not into the major or anything per se. My father was a huge influence on my life. He was a very successful businessman and you know, Midwestern with a heck of a work ethic. So, I would say he influenced my approach to life in a lot of ways. He passed early. I was in high school when he passed and that's probably one reason I wasn't a great student towards the end 'cause he wasn't there pushing on me.

[00:07:50] But nobody else really along the way to guide me into that the decision to be a geologist other than what I'd heard from, sitting around the campfire with my uncles kind of thing, [00:08:00] 

[00:08:00] Guy: So you're graduating college now and you have to move to life beyond that what were you thinking? What'd you do? Tell us the next stage in the story. I.

[00:08:09] Rich: It was interesting first off in geology, I didn't really care for rocks. That was never a big deal for me. But I liked the processes. I liked, sedimentation, I liked structural, I liked geomorphology, I liked things that talked about how the earth forms and whatnot.

[00:08:26] So I didn't wanna go into mining geology at all and oil was probably the best place for me to go at that point in time. 'cause I didn't know any really other places to try and go. And when I graduated was when oil was kind of at a bust and they were, in fact, one of the guys I interviewed with at one point early on said, there're are PhDs out walking the street trying to get the job you're looking at right now.

[00:08:47] So I was a little bit flustered over that. I didn't quite know where to take it, but through my pool years, like I mentioned, I was, lifeguard and I made a lot of acquaintances there, all families that belonged to whatnot. And [00:09:00] one of those guys just happened to be in charge of kind of the earth sciences, part of the western region for the US Forest Service.

[00:09:08] And I was talking to him one afternoon at the pool after I'd graduated. It was not doing anything at that point. And he mentioned a coworker of his who used to be the western regional geologist and had jumped out and started a geotech firm and they were looking for a lab tech.

[00:09:22] So he made that introduction and that's how I got into, the it was something I didn't even know existed. Engineering geology was not a thing in my mind at that point in time, but as it turned out every bit about it, like I mentioned, I like the processes and that's all processes.

[00:09:36] So it was a lot of fun.

[00:09:38] Guy: So now you're in a field tech position, entry level, field tech position. How did you find that meeting your expectations of what you thought you'd be doing?

[00:09:46] Rich: Actually it started as a lab tech and it was nothing like what I thought I'd be doing as a geologist, but it was interesting because I happened to have some really good kind of mentor. I said, I didn't have one earlier, but thinking about it, some of the, those more senior geologists when I first started my [00:10:00] career were very, helpful in terms of pointing out to me what I was doing and why it mattered . And I was learning all about the soils in the Bay Area, which is a pretty unique area all by itself. And why these different things mattered in terms of stability to buildings and all these different things.

[00:10:15] While it didn't meet what I thought I'd be doing it, it really did pique my curiosity. And I started reading, I read. Sours and sours. I read, I couldn't get enough information. I was just a sponge for anything that had to do with this whole topic. And so about a year of that. And then I finally did start going out and doing some drilling and did a lot of compaction control.

[00:10:36] We did a lot of landslide work and so that was actually fascinating and that more than met my need or my desire for the field stuff that I'd be seeing. I saw hundreds of landslides being dug out and put back together and, got to put my finger on slide planes that were actually moving and all kinds of pretty cool stuff.

[00:10:53] Guy: Pretty cool.

[00:10:54] Going back just a little bit there, it was interesting how you brought up some of your mentors resonated with you because [00:11:00] they explained, took the time to explain the importance of what you were doing and its context to the bigger picture. I'd never heard it really described that way, but that's pretty interesting for our listeners in terms of, receiving or giving mentorship as a way to resonate with others.

[00:11:14] Rich: Yeah, no, it was wonderful. I could walk in their office anytime with a piece of dirt and ask 'em what's going on or what's up with this? And they were very wide open to it. In fact, these could be long conversations, not just a 10 minute Now get outta my office.

[00:11:27] Guy: I am thinking back on my own career, I think a lot of geologists like to talk about the soil.

[00:11:31] Rich: Yeah. It's the closest thing to what we learned in school.

[00:11:35] Guy: This is true. So keep going on your career, you're you're now, moving up the ranks of a geo professional firm.

[00:11:42] Ultimately, I know no spoiler alert here, but you became an executive at a firm. So what was your process? Did you wanted to get into management or you just following the path of what's in front of you?

[00:11:54] Rich: So initially, no, I didn't, the technical stuff that I was learning was just over the [00:12:00] top. I mean, the curve was steep, but I was eating up everything that they could possibly throw at me. I was a little confused getting into the world because the founder of that firm was a geotech as well as a engineering geologist, but he'd also served as a civil and a geo structures guy and all that.

[00:12:15] So the lines were blurred between what you do when you're in this kind of world. I was out setting property lines, boundaries. Me being the party chief . Stuff that I had no idea how to really do but learned along the way. And so that was all good and wonderful but it turned out about five or six years into working for that firm, which I figured was gonna be a lifer there.

[00:12:37] The boss went to the dark side and started taking, he became the guy that you learn about at GBA, that you know, you have to stand up to these expert witnesses. Sometimes he turned into that guy, and so his company all bailed. We all took off at one point or another. I waited until I was registered and I didn't even tell him I was registered and I started looking for a job.

[00:12:58] So I left that [00:13:00] firm and went to work for Dames and Moore and was trying to get more into the environmental side of things at that point in time as well, because I saw a lot more money in what I thought was a lot longer longevity. So I went to Dames and Moore for just about 13 months down in Fresno, California.

[00:13:15] And that really wasn't meeting my needs. They hired me down there because I had my license and nobody else in that office did and they needed to stay up down there. So I did that for a while till I just really didn't wanna do it anymore. And that's when I came across BSK Associates. BSK was actually at that point in time doing everything I thought that I'd be doing at Dames and Moore, from seismicity and we were doing a lot of geophysics, a lot of pretty cool stuff. And I was doing both environmental and engineering geology when I first went over to BSK. So I was working for BSK. Their Fresno headquarter, which is where I was as a result of going to work for Dames and Moore and worked there for a year and their Sacramento office branch manager.

[00:13:53] It just took off one day, said, I'm done and left. And I'd been telling him I wanted to get back to Sacramento. So k [00:14:00] Hugo K of BSK came into my office and said pack your things. We're sending you to Sacramento. So I became the branch manager in Sacramento, and that's when I started, had kind to, well, actually a little bit before that, I started getting into the business side of things, leaving Dames and Moore.

[00:14:14] They had all kinds of tools for project managers and BSK really did not. And so I started pushing hard on getting some kind of software package, things that would give us the data we needed to manage effectively. And that's, I think, when I first started getting noticed, by the way.

[00:14:29] And I pushed really hard on that by the time I left there. We did have a, it was called Data Basics. It's one of the early products that was bought by, I believe it is Deltech now. But anyway, so that kind of put me on the map from that standpoint. And then also got me into the Sacramento areas the branch manager.

[00:14:46] Guy: So I wanna pause right here, rich. And I'm gonna ask you, so now you've sort of crossed over, that invisible barrier between consultant to management.

[00:14:54] Rich: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:55] Guy: At that point, did you see them as as different [00:15:00] perspectives or just tell us about your mindset at that point. As you're shifting gear from doing the work to maybe leveraging into

[00:15:07] managing multiple projects and people .

[00:15:09] Rich: It was a small branch, so it really didn't work that way. I still did the, you know, you sell it, you do it, you bill it, all those kind of things. And I had a staff of about three at that point in time. So, yeah, you know, there was some of the management rigor that went along with that, but that developed more slowly as the office grew, it was probably kind of a, a nice way , to become involved in the management side, the business side more a kind of a slower basis than that. My interest in the management, the business side, I should say. Kept growing and actually at some point it became more of a challenge to me than the technical side, and I liked that.

[00:15:45] And so I wanted to pursue it even more. I think that's, the challenge is what I needed.

[00:15:50] Guy: Okay and some of those challenges were

[00:15:53] Rich: Oh, just learning how to manage people and, you know, how do you how do you deal with a client that don't want to pay a bill? And just the [00:16:00] human aspect where you really don't, it's not predictable.

[00:16:02] They're not always predictable and you know, yeah, it's just staff problems. The infighting, the different things can happen there.

[00:16:08] My supervisor actually at one point was. He was a little too handsy with some of the people, and I actually had to go and intervene in, in a situation between my boss and my clerical person that you, you don't learn that in school.

[00:16:24] Guy: Sure. So, turn out the path for us from, you're moving to Sacramento to run an office. You're growing in your experience and and becoming more involved in management all the way through your CEO tenure and I think notably your decision to retire and, move beyond that, that you talked about in the very beginning.

[00:16:44] Rich: Okay, I'll try and make this short. So, the duties kept kind of building . I was a guy who would take on anything that was thrown at me, and there was a lot of things that came up on the management side not the least of which was the accounting system and that kind of thing.

[00:16:57] So, I kept saying yes to things and as a [00:17:00] result became more widely seen in the company . And I wound up becoming, at one point the director of our environmental services group. That was my first kind of corporate wire assignment. And that's really where it launched me into the path towards CEO because at the same time the third founder, K of BSK was getting ready to sell his stock.

[00:17:18] The shareholder agreement said he had to do that at 65, and so he was on his way out, but he was trying to cover bases before he left. And he asked me to sit on the board of directors at that point. And gave me the insight on the other people that were involved in some of the management changes, and asked me to watch over this and that.

[00:17:35] And he kinda shepherded me through that period of things. But every bit of it, as I experienced it, I loved it and just kept trying to do more of it. And so becoming a, a director. And then as he retired, his replacement as CEO really didn't work out after about a year.

[00:17:52] And so we took him out as a board, which was tough to do. He was a pretty major shareholder as well. And at that point, by the way, we were not a [00:18:00] hundred percent esop. Shortly thereafter, we did become a hundred percent esop, but because he was a major shareholder, it was kind of tough. And then his replacement didn't want to do it.

[00:18:09] He grudgingly took the position and sat in that chair for just four years. Before then, I was named CEO, so in that timeframe, and mostly sitting as I wound up sitting as the chair of the board during that timeframe as well. In essence, I was managing the company in the absence of the other guy's interest.

[00:18:26] And yeah, in 2006, I think it was they named me CEO. It's because I just kept saying yes to things. I kept taking on the assignment and even stepping up to it and volunteering sometimes. 

[00:18:37] Guy: What do you think the key skill sets needed to be effective CEO would be.

[00:18:42] Rich: Oh man, so many of 'em. And I'm not sure I completely ever figured it out to be quite honest you have to be able to listen. Probably the hardest thing for me to do sometimes is to sit and listen, but listen look for a big picture. Try not to overreact to some of the daily challenges, the little [00:19:00] setbacks.

[00:19:00] I think you have to actually have a real interest in people and the people that work for you. And actually in the client as well, obviously. That, that kind of goes without saying when you're in the consulting world, so empathy would be a huge one. There's probably more I'm missing.

[00:19:13] Guy: I'm sure it's extensive list and there's probably not one formula there.

[00:19:17] How about your connection to GBA? So how did you first connect to the Geoprofessional Business Association and how did you really get hooked?

[00:19:24] Rich: So BSK was always a member of GBA because we were Terra insured, which, was a requirement at that point that you, you belonged to GBA, but we never participated in any shape or form. We had a lot of the resources, and I remember that's one of the things that the founder kept throwing at me were just some of the recordings and papers and this and that and the other thing.

[00:19:42] So shortly after I became CEO, Dave Coduto came to me and said, you need a peer review. And I said, okay tell me who to pick. So he's put three people in my life that were pretty darn cool to have in my life. We just happened to be on, the front end [00:20:00] of the period for a GBA meeting in Nashville, Tennessee.

[00:20:03] And I thought, I'm gonna go there and meet these guys before they come out here for a peer review. So I went to that meeting, I was totally overwhelmed. Everybody knew everybody. And I'm sitting there knowing nobody, but it was I found the three guys were gonna do my peer review and they were wonderful and took me under their wing and introduced me around.

[00:20:18] I thought everything about it was fantastic. And so yeah, the stage was set. I never stopped going after that.

[00:20:25] Guy: And then you were also active in some committees as well,

[00:20:28] Rich: Mm-hmm. I was, yeah.

[00:20:30] Guy: Okay, let's move the interview to the next stage as we, talked about the geoprofession through GBA and beyond. You've had a great career, rich, and you've seen a lot and probably a lot has changed. So as you reflect on that what has changed, over, your career and our profession, what stands out? 

[00:20:49] Rich: Yeah. This might be an unpopular view but what I really have noticed is the desire of folks to put in extra time on their career. I don't [00:21:00] see that as much today. It was kind of common back then. I remember I have a question on something. My boss would gimme a book and say, read this and come back and we'll talk about it.

[00:21:07] And, but now in fact, a lot of his kind of mantra was, you're a professional. You learn in your time. You come and do in our time . So. People today I don't see them wanting to put in that extra time to really develop themselves for their career. I'm not trying to make that as an absolute statement, but so many people don't do that at this point, and they expect to be spoonfed.

[00:21:29] The 40 hour week is a myth, at least, in my developmental years, it was a myth. And yeah, I actually kind of envy them to some degree. But yeah, people just, they wanna go home at the end of the day and not put in the extra time and all. The other thing is people wanna be promoted too fast.

[00:21:44] They don't wanna do the hard work and get , the soils lab training where you really learn what the soil feels like, that kind of thing. So I'm afraid that we're, I don't wanna use the word dumbing down, but I'm nothing else is coming to mind. I'm, I'm afraid that we're taking the easy path and not learning the nuts and bolts of this [00:22:00] profession.

[00:22:01] That was my frustration towards the end of my career. They apparently wants to be coddled and taken care of instead of getting out and doing the hard work. Like I said, it may not be a popular conclusion, but,

[00:22:12] Guy: Hey, geo heroes. We get honest, candid

[00:22:14] Rich: um,

[00:22:16] Guy: What's the flip of that question? What do you think has stayed the same throughout your entire career? What's the same today that it was, back when you started? I.

[00:22:24] Rich: okay. And actually this is maybe even has been enhanced, but the. While they don't wanna do the hard work at the front end of things, they are absolutely in love with the technical aspects. And I think that's still the same and maybe even more so that engineers love engineering and they just can't get enough of the technical side.

[00:22:41] And so they, they like solving the problems. Part of my gripe part of that would be that I'm not sure they have the tools to solve the problems if they haven't been out there and seen these things. But I think that the love and the desire is still there, if not more so. There's so much about the geosciences that hasn't changed.

[00:22:56] You think about like exploration tools . It's pretty rudimentary, [00:23:00] seemingly, but kind of necessary. And I'm not sure we're ever gonna have a better way of doing things. So a lot of it's similar. The attention we pay to risk management is similar. And maybe little over enhanced at some point to some point, but.

[00:23:17] You know, by and large it's a lot unchanged.

[00:23:23] Guy: Do you see these impending changes or ongoing changes in technology, changing that some of these traditional approaches to, obtaining data or processing data or any of that?

[00:23:38] Rich: I don't see a huge shift in it. One thing that actually I've been watching for a while, one of the first committees I served on at GBA was the emerging issues and trends.* And at one point in time, I don't remember who it was, *it was a national organization might even have been a federal organization that they were trying to compile all this data and make it so that we could.

[00:23:57] Forego subsurface [00:24:00] investigations in a lot of places . They were trying to put together this big national database of soil data throughout the country. And Google, I know took that on for a little while as well. But something like that, I guess with AI developing like it is, I could see something like that coming to be but whether it would really ever replace subsurface investigation I don't know that that could really happen.

[00:24:21] The downside of that is a lot of firms use their local experience to dominate the marketplace because they don't have to do as much subsurface. They've drilled every side around something. So that would be a downside to that happening if it ever really did, but.

[00:24:36] Guy: How about the most opportunities when you look forward for, folks, entering the profession or firms that are, in their heyday where's the future for them? What opportunities are out there that aren't there today?

[00:24:48] Rich: It's a great question because I actually, you know, when I started my career, there were a lot of small firms that had local followings of clientele and they were kind of beholden to that particular engineer. They had a great [00:25:00] relationship and so they would keep working. All the stuff you learn at GBA about the relationships. I see that actually going the opposite direction.

[00:25:05] The firms are getting big, and I'm not sure the relationships are as tight and. Generations are changing and I'm not, I don't know how this generation is gonna be, you know, the Zs, how are they gonna be doing business, what are their relationship's gonna.

[00:25:18] But I would say that that's the best opportunity is to just start trying to form those relationships. That's has served all of us very well and I think it will serve them. I just dunno if they see it at this point in time or that, you know, client side or consultant side. So I don't, I probably took your question in a different direction.

[00:25:36] Guy: That's an interesting point. So I want hear what you're thinking.

[00:25:40] Rich: Look at all the mega mergers that are happening and all the AECOM size firms that are getting all these big projects and there's not a lot of carve out for some of the smaller firms. So I'm not sure how the relationships are really gonna usher those through unless you're, some national figure at AECOM that has a [00:26:00] personal relationship with the Department of Transportation head, things like that.

[00:26:04] But you gotta start, if you don't start trying to make those relationships somewhere, you're never gonna have any of those pieces . There will always be some smaller. Work, smaller pieces of work and whatnot , that you can get in on. But you're not gonna get any of them unless you're forming the relationship.

[00:26:16] So I guess a better way to put that would be you gotta form your network. 'cause that's what's gonna get you involved with some things. And I'm watching right now a firm that, whose board I sit on they're working through several different people to form relationships with Department of Transportation and even up as far as the governor to try and get

[00:26:36] some headway into some work . You just gotta start somewhere.

[00:26:40] Guy: Yeah, I think that's an interesting observation that resonates with me, at least in our business. We are technically capable and we do, you know, material things,

[00:26:49] but relationships also frequently position you for that work. You couldn't get the work without the prowess, but having some form of relationship to put yourself in a position to do the [00:27:00] work is a pretty important part of the consulting world. 

[00:27:04] Rich: Yeah. That was a hard life lesson for me was I thought that we, and we could, you, we can do anything. That's how we used to view the world. We can do anything but. I thought, I'd be going after all these big massive projects that, they didn't know me from Adam. We didn't have a chance in heck, but I didn't know that at that stage of my career.

[00:27:20] You gotta have that recognition, at least, if not relationship,

[00:27:24] Guy: So I, we sort of went down this road, but I'll ask the question explicitly, what do you think the profession looks like in 10 or 15 years from now?

[00:27:31] Rich: I feel like I'm starting to see some of these mega firms starting to break apart a little bit. And yeah, they're getting bigger, but they're also spawning smaller firms and very specialized firms. And I actually see 10 years from now, a lot of maybe small kind of specialty type firms that sub to these massive efforts.

[00:27:48] I don't think that we're gonna see technology take over much of what we do at this point. I think we'll see it be a tool to make us more efficient. Maybe some of the [00:28:00] analysis will become more black box, which would be a shame. I hope that the engineers will still learn the basics behind it.

[00:28:06] But in 10 years, I don't even 20 years, I don't know that there'll be a huge, huge difference. The one thing that I think is coming, the, these younger generations that are gonna be taking over the work world, they've lived their entire life with computers and they've come to depend on what the computer spits out as being, the truth.

[00:28:25] And I'm afraid we could go down that path, especially with AI, where the black box approach is good enough because the computer said it was. I hope that's not the case. And so I guess that would be a cautionary. The statement is, don't let that happen.

[00:28:43] Guy: And the fear there would be some unique catastrophic failure.

[00:28:46] Rich: Yeah. Lack of engineering, no engineering judgment really going into it, and I'm not sure. Yeah. I can capture that kind of thing. It's what they've learned because they've been around the computer all their life, like I said and it's the truth. Yeah, that would be terrible. If that's [00:29:00] a change we see. It's gonna be for the worst.

[00:29:02] Guy: Hmm. That's a little scary.

[00:29:04] Rich: Yeah.

[00:29:06] Guy: All right, we're all on that scary note. We'll switch to the next phase of our interview. Rich, I'm gonna just ask you some speed round questions.

[00:29:12] So, buckle up your seatbelt. I'm gonna fire a couple questions at you and just do your best to answer 'em. And of course, take as much time as you want to answer them. So in my experience with GBA especially, I found that a lot of the people that I talk to have a really interesting reading list. So I'm gonna ask you what your favorite book is.

[00:29:32] Rich: Okay. I've been through all the business books, all that. I just stopped reading those because every new idea is something I tried to take on. I would've answered a long time ago that it was one of those along the way. But honestly at this point in my life the most interesting and important book in my life is the Bible.

[00:29:48] Guy: It would not be our first answer of the Bible in this interview series,

[00:29:51] Rich: really? Okay.

[00:29:52] Guy: tell me about that. How does that influence you today?

[00:29:55] Rich: First off, it's interesting. It's a history book. If you've never read it, I was surprised at how [00:30:00] much history is in there, if you wanna take the time to understand that part and do a little bit more research on it. But beyond that, just the message is calming. And about 2013, 14, I was really high strung and I just couldn't find any way to relax or find peace in my life.

[00:30:17] And so I I turned back I was raised Catholic. I no longer am. Don't consider myself that, but I am Christian, and I started to find some peace in just pursuing more of my spirituality. And the Bible is a huge piece of that. I did learn I can't at least just sit down and read it.

[00:30:33] I have to actually learn more about what does that mean, what does that say? And then it's actually super calming and affirming and actually gives good direction so much about it.

[00:30:44] Guy: Interesting. I appreciate you sharing that with us.

[00:30:47] Next question, as you look at the geof today and we look ahead and we talked about the future, what's your optimism index? One being very pessimistic, five being incredibly optimistic.

[00:30:58] Rich: I'd say four. I like to [00:31:00] think I'm an optimistic guy, even though some of my previous answers were not down that path. It's a profession that's needed. If we're gonna have buildings stand up and with the impending climate changes and, look how many volcanoes are about to go off.

[00:31:15] So many different things. You gotta have the right amount of thought going to a building and its foundation and stability and, protections, dikes or levies. All that stuff is gonna be more and more necessary and we're the people to do it.

[00:31:30] Guy: Sounds good to me. Reflecting on your career your accomplished career what do you think, when you look back on it is your, the biggest impact you've had in that professional life? I.

[00:31:42] Rich: I like to believe it's taking the company that I wound up running and turning it into, it was a founder run business at the time, basically still founder run. When I took over. Turned it into a business. We have systems, we have tools, we have [00:32:00] a lot of things there now , that help the business run more smoothly and those really didn't exist before.

[00:32:06] We also put a lot of effort into developing our people process. And one of my stated objectives was to become best places to work by the time I left my career. And we accomplished that. And I like to think we made a kind company, but one that ran like a company and, not like a frat house or something.

[00:32:26] Guy: Yeah congratulations on that. That's hard to do both of those things, but

[00:32:29] easier if you have that in your mind.

[00:32:31] Rich: Yeah.

[00:32:32] Guy: So the flip of it is you take great pride in that. If you look at your career and you look at the, the decisions you made along the way, you're obviously happy with where you are now, but are there any decisions, forks in the road you came to that you, you're curious about?

[00:32:46] You know, what if I'd gone a different way and, I don't wanna call it a regret per se, but you know, questions that you ask yourself when you reflect on your path to now. 

[00:32:54] Rich: Yeah. No, no regrets. Can't have regrets. I wouldn't even call it a fork in the road necessarily, but [00:33:00] too many times. And when I say that at three or four I would hold onto an employee for too long that I thought was uber valuable in terms of client attraction, that kind of thing.

[00:33:10] And come to find out they were basically a cancer on the company. And it took me too long to realize that and do something about it. The other thing that I did too much of was I would hear a gripe or a complaint. It was one that actually just kind of hit my funny bone and I would become livid over this situation and mad at who, whoever they were tattle, tailing on kind of thing.

[00:33:31] Come to find out, you know, more often than not later, that wasn't really the situation. So I react too quickly, too many times,

[00:33:41] Guy: Hmm.

[00:33:41] Well those are uniquely human qualities, so, you could probably forgive yourself a little bit there.

[00:33:47] Rich: well, yeah.

[00:33:49] Guy: So, rich, as we, we wrap up, and this is my final formal question but what would be one piece of advice you would offer to anyone, just beginning their career in the geoprofession?

[00:33:59] Rich: Yeah, I [00:34:00] said it earlier. I'll try and be more articulate this time with it but take time to invest. Your time in your career. Go above and beyond. Yeah. I tell my two boys all the time, it's easy to be extraordinary in this world right now. All you have to do is, put in an extra hour every day, do it for yourself, work on yourself and your profession, your chosen endeavor.

[00:34:21] So that, I think that really will get people further along than anything else. And they'll climb the ladder faster.

[00:34:29] Guy: That sounds good advice, rich. So we're pretty much concluded the interview, but I wanna open it up to you, as the last word. Is there anything that you wanted to share with our audience today that, maybe I didn't explicitly ask you, and where it's still hanging by a thread in your brain and you wanna articulate it?

[00:34:46] Rich: Nothing really comes to mind. Again, work on yourself. GBA if you can get your firm to sponsor you into GBA somehow. Invaluable. That would be another great place for a youngster to start and go. But I [00:35:00] think, yeah, get involved. Invest in this organization and it will pay, dividends in spades.

[00:35:08] Guy: Okay. Well, we're gonna, we're gonna wrap on that. I wanna thank you, rich for joining us today and sharing your story and your perspectives because I found them to be very interesting and meaningful. And I wanna thank you, our audience for tuning in today and listening through to the end. So we're gonna call that a wrap. Have a great one.