GeoHero - Dan Schaefer
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[00:00:00] Guy: welcome back GeoHero listeners. Excited to have another great podcast interview to you with GeoHero, Dan Schaefer. Welcome, Dan.

[00:00:09] Dan: Thanks guy, appreciate being here.

[00:00:11] Guy: Give a brief introduction of yourself for our audience today?

[00:00:14] Dan: Yes. I'm Dan Schaefer. I'm a VP of Operations for Froehling & Robertson. I'm based in the Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill area, North Carolina, and I've been with FNR for 35 years.

[00:00:27] Guy: Thanks for taking time today and agreeing to meet with us and tell us a little bit about your story. Dan and I know each other through GBA, but also, more notably through the board. And I've really enjoyed working with you, Dan. So I know a little bit about your story and I'm gonna ask you to share some details.

[00:00:43] Tell us a little bit about, young Dan Schafer. What were you like where'd you grow up? What was your childhood like?

[00:00:49] Dan: Yeah I grew up in Rochester, New York. And my dad was a lawyer. My mom was a homemaker and I have an older brother and sister. [00:01:00] My parents got divorced when I was in third grade, so, I gained three stepbrothers. So it was a pretty big group growing up. It was a lot of fun and I think.

[00:01:10] Rochester, New York and upstate New York was just, it's a great place to, to grow up. Just really enjoyed it.

[00:01:17] Guy: What did you do for fun when you're young in Rochester, New York? 

[00:01:21] Dan: I think, sort of typical childhood, I was really into sports. Especially early on and then, but that kind of gravitated to, as I got into like middle school and high school of less sort of team sports and more outdoor stuff. I got into biking in a big way.

[00:01:38] Did a lot of camping and spent a lot of time on the water boating, canoeing, sailing. Did a lot of fishing and so yeah, that sort of just transitioned as I was growing up. Particularly through high school. I love to build things and you know, like whatever Legos and blocks and just you know, spend countless hours [00:02:00] focusing on those type of things.

[00:02:01] Yeah, that's pretty much, those were my interests, at least when I was younger.

[00:02:05] Guy: So a love of outdoors and building things. It seems like you are destined to be a geoprofessional.

[00:02:11] Dan: Yeah, I think so. I think there were a number of things that occurred like that I can remember that sort of had me, yeah. This was my destiny from an early age. And I remember those things to this day and I repeat them to people. And I think that yeah, it's really had a big impact on my life.

[00:02:30] Guy: So wait a minute. So how old were you when you knew you wanted to be an engineer?

[00:02:33] Dan: I didn't know about if I wanted to be an engineer, so like very early in life like before I could even read, I remember my parents reading me books and one of my favorite books was Who Built The Highway? And then there's another favorite book, Mike Mulligan and The Steam Shovel. And there was another book called Farewell to Shady Glade, these are books that were read to me over and over, demanded they be read to me over and over, and then I started reading them as I grew up. So it was just like I, I was just really [00:03:00] into construction. I don't know why. And then when I got to,

[00:03:03] Guy: Wait before you leave that. Solve the mystery. Who built the highway?

[00:03:07] Dan: Well, it was just a bunch of big machines for me. It was scrapers and excavators and steam shovels. Right. They didn't have, they don't have steam shovels anymore. Right. And

[00:03:16] Guy: what the books had in the, yeah.

[00:03:18] Dan: right. So of course this was back in the sixties. But yeah, it was just a really, I don't know. It was just interesting.

[00:03:25] I don't know why it connected with me, but it did. 

[00:03:28] Guy: But you never lost that. Then your whole life you sort of, realized that was a calling or certainly an area of interest.

[00:03:33] Dan: Yeah. And I think that another time was, I think I was probably seven or eight, and I was pushing for a sandbox for my birthday, and I wanted a Tonka toy. And my dad had a client who owned a sand and gravel business. So I didn't get a sandbox. He got a dump truck of sand delivered to our house.

[00:03:52] Dumped in the backyard. So I had a sand yard and that sort of became for a few years, like the rallying point [00:04:00] for the kids in the neighborhood. They all brought their Tonka toys and we just spent hours and hours out there playing and building stuff. And so that was really, I still remember those days and it was just really important.

[00:04:12] And again, sort of further that I want to be involved with construction. I like to build things.

[00:04:19] Guy: That's really cool. Dan, I did not know that part of your story.

[00:04:22] Growing up did you have a, like a part-time job? Did you do anything to make a little side hustle for money? 

[00:04:27] Dan: Yeah I had two jobs, getting into high school, I worked in a restaurant and quickly realized that. I was an awesome dishwasher. So they pushed me out to the front of the restaurant and I started busing tables and serving and that was a weekend job.

[00:04:45] And, but I learned a lot and I stayed connected. It was at this one Italian restaurant and I stayed connected with that family. For long after I stopped working there and just really enjoyed it. Really enjoyed it. I learned [00:05:00] that it gets very intense.

[00:05:02] Like I'm making connections to work now, right? You have these intense periods working in a restaurant. You have to work together. You have to keep customers happy and I think that someone told me you have to. Eat crap and smile at the same time sometimes. So I think that's one of the things I learned from that.

[00:05:17] Guy: What did you enjoy about it though, specifically? Was it the interactions with the people or working in the team, or what? What was your connection to it?

[00:05:25] Dan: I think the thing I liked the most was if I worked hard, I could make more tips. So I think to me it was this very. Just clear, distinct. If you work hard and you do your job well, you're gonna get more money. And I think that was it. I mean, I enjoyed the people that I worked with and we had a lot of fun as well.

[00:05:45] But I think , that's pretty much what I learned from it. I had another job though that was also pretty meaningful. And had a huge impact on my life. And it's something, again, I still remember to the day, just have vivid memories and [00:06:00] taught me a whole lot.

[00:06:00] And that was I worked as a camp counselor and it all started back when I was probably in sixth grade where I went to this camp where I had brothers had gone before me and cousins had gone before me. And it was a camp, a wilderness camp located in Algonquin Park. And Canada and Ontario and it was a canoe tripping camp.

[00:06:22] So it wasn't like your typical sort of boy scout camp or y camp . So you basically canoe tripping is, and you may know this, but you you paddle across lakes and rivers and then you carry your equipment in your canoe on paths. You port portage 'em and they maybe a short path. It may be miles long to the next river, and you just go throughout, you know, this canoe tripping.

[00:06:45] You bring everything that you need to sustain and it starts out easy when you're a kid. Maybe you're doing one and. Two night overnight trips. But then as I got older, going to the camp through high school, and then when I became a counselor, the trips get more [00:07:00] intense and they maybe you might be gone for one or three weeks without seeing anybody.

[00:07:04] And you know, it's demanding physically. It's demanding mentally. You have to work very hard to get to some very beautiful places that you can only get to, by paddling and carrying. It really taught me more than the restaurant this teamwork and hard work and, you know, just persevering through difficulties to get something really nice.

[00:07:25] So I think that had a big impact on my life.

[00:07:28] Guy: So when you look back at that time the times when you were a guest, one of the campers versus you became the counselor, do you see that differently through those two different lenses? And if so what were the differences? 

[00:07:40] Dan: I think it was fun both times, right? I never really felt that distinction of going from camper to counselor, but. Other than I knew there was more responsibility and because we were taught that, because you're far away from, there were no cell phones.

[00:07:57] You're far away, you know, if you had to get [00:08:00] help. You'd have a long way to go. And so I think, just learning about the importance of safety and I think that was probably the biggest thing. And just being responsible for the others, you know, as opposed to them being responsible for me I think was meaningful, you know, a little bit like it is at work as my career's grown.

[00:08:19] Right. I went from, you know, being a young professional where. I wasn't in control of my destiny and people were looking out for me to now being in a more senior position where there's a lot of people that are counting on me. So I think that's sort of some of the takeaways I have.

[00:08:36] Guy: Okay you're growing up in your extended family doing your camping at some point you had to sort of figure out what you were gonna do with your life and where you're gonna go to school. And so tell us about your journey through that part of your life.

[00:08:49] Dan: Yeah, so there was another sort of I don't know if it was serendipity or not, but my last summer, well, so I didn't know what I wanted to do getting outta high school. I [00:09:00] loved math, so I thought I would be a math teacher, and my dad kinda looked at me, you want to be a math teacher, Dan, are you sure? And so we had a party at our house. One of my dad's clients was there and he owned a precast concrete company. And somehow we got talking and he asked me what I was interested in and I told him well I was interested in math. I like the outdoors and I like to build things. And he said, have you thought about being a civil engineer?

[00:09:31] And one thing led to another. I was a few months later, I was headed off to college to get a degree in civil engineering. So. It didn't take much to steer me. It was that it sounded a whole lot more interesting than teaching math. And yeah. So that, that's how, that, that's how that happened.

[00:09:48] Guy: So that person just connected the dots to the big themes in your life.

[00:09:52] Dan: Yeah. And I think he knew civil engineers from his company, precast Concrete company. So I think that's how that worked.

[00:09:58] Guy: So were you a good [00:10:00] student?

[00:10:00] Dan: In high school I was, I would say I was average at everything and I really excelled at math and I loved shop classes. I loved engine shop and I loved the drafting class. Of course. You know, nobody helped.

[00:10:13] Guy: fingers did your shop teacher have?

[00:10:15] Dan: Yeah, right. I know he had a tip of one missing. But wood shop was the one I really enjoyed the most, so I spent a lot of time down there and and then going to college, I, I was probably at best an average student.

[00:10:28] But I really enjoyed certain classes, like the math. Physics. And then when we got to junior, senior year when we're starting to do, like really engineering classes, I think that the soils and foundations classes I took, I liked the most. Yeah, I think that's where my interests lied.

[00:10:47] I like geology, Of course I liked the outdoors. So I think that all kind of fit together.

[00:10:52] Guy: So you're moving towards the end of your college life. You've taken a, I assume, a general civil engineering curriculum, but you like the soil [00:11:00] part of it, the soils lab. What did it look like upon graduation and, moving ahead with your life?

[00:11:05] Dan: So in my junior year I was thinking should I go back to the camp and, or should I try to get a job that summer somewhere related to engineering or construction? So again my dad talked to his client who owned the precast concrete company. And so I'm thinking, oh boy, I am gonna go work at the precast concrete company this summer, slugging concrete or whatever they do.

[00:11:27] And he came back and said Mr. Clark suggested that maybe you go work for a testing firm. And I was like, oh, okay. That's not gonna be as hard as working in the yard at the precast plant. So. I ended up work getting a job, a summer job, working as an engineering technician for Empire Soils in Rochester, New York.

[00:11:49] And so I did that my summer of my junior year. And then when it came time to getting close to graduation, I asked 'em if they had any [00:12:00] jobs for engineers and they didn't in the Rochester office, but they said, call this guy in the headquarters in Central New York. And see if they have any jobs. So I made a call, I got an interview got a job offer and went to work for that same company empire Soils Investigations.

[00:12:18] Guy: Where did you have to go for that?

[00:12:20] Dan: So that was in, Groton, New York. So it's located New Ithaca, that's where their headquarters was. That's where I got my start and that's where I spent the first five years of my career.

[00:12:30] Guy: Actually, yeah. So I'm gonna ask you, Dan, if you go back to your mindset when you're still a junior in college and working as a engineering tech. What was your perception of the industry, at that time in your life?

[00:12:44] Dan: I don't know. I felt it was a really strong industry because there was lots of work to be done and I felt that it was gonna be like in terms of a career was gonna be reliable and I felt like, there was always going to be a [00:13:00] job. The times back then were a little different than they are now.

[00:13:02] Right. So I think that in terms of availability for work, I think that, the jobs weren't quite so plentiful as they are now, and there were more people and positions perhaps. But I think that was, it was a lot of fun. It was doing what I liked.

[00:13:17] I mean, the first day of work. I went down into a tunnel project that they were building beneath Rochester. I dunno if it was 20 foot diameter tunnel. I went down and then I went in a mile or so, and we were taking cores out of the roof of this tunnel and I was just thinking.

[00:13:36] That was pretty cool. I just, I was just thinking this is gonna be fun. I don't think I understood necessarily the engineering distinction of engineering and construction quite so well, but it seemed comfortable to me in a place that, that I could excel.

[00:13:50] Guy: Fast forwarding, now you're in the, industry, full time. So trace your path from there till now.

[00:13:56] Dan: I think I got kind of lucky 'cause when I went to [00:14:00] Empire Soils to their headquarters office I got to work for two really good geotechnical engineers Ben Thompson and Charlie Gainor. They sort of took me under their wing, particularly Charlie and just taught me and I soaked it up.

[00:14:12] I was eager to learn. I knew I didn't have a great technical background necessarily from college and they were willing to teach me. So it was just a five years of pretty intense learning, a mix of field work. Then, you know, just pretty traditional. Did a lot of field work to begin, started getting involved with analysis and writing reports.

[00:14:34] Started doing proposals and mostly in materials testing and geotechnical primarily. But I got involved with some environmental work , in the late eighties, there was a lot of environmental work going on. So I got involved with some of that and I think that one of the biggest things was Empire Soils was an ASFE member firm.

[00:14:54] So I think that, that was something that. I don't know if I'd be involved with [00:15:00] ASFE quite as much as I am now if I didn't have that early start with a firm that was an ASFE member. So I worked there for five years for a number of reasons. It was a good time for me to explore opportunities.

[00:15:14] Probably that number one reason was a girlfriend I had at the time moved to North Carolina, so I followed her to North Carolina. We thought that was a better place at that time. With the economy in 1990 and in New York being pretty bad and things in North Carolina looking like they were on a really upward trajectory.

[00:15:34] I came down, I visited her, I interviewed with three firms. I got three offers. I took one of them and at FNR where I've been for 35 years.

[00:15:46] Guy: So when you look back at that time , I think it was Charlie, you said it was one of your mentors. What was it he was doing to teach you? Can you describe what worked really well for you that he was doing?

[00:15:56] Dan: Yeah, so I think, he [00:16:00] was very, he was hard, he was strict. It was black and white. And I know a lot of people don't respond well to that type of. Boss, but I did never bothered me. You know, I'd been, I'd been through a lot of life and so if somebody is demanding it didn't bother me.

[00:16:16] So I think that I responded well to that. So he took more time to teach me. So he basically taught me how to do step by step, geotech analysis. And I just think that, you know, bearing capacity, settlement, deep foundations, everything it was mostly hand calculations at the time. I do analysis.

[00:16:38] He would review it and he was a heavy reviewer. If you did something wrong, he told you. So I think that. I benefited because he didn't need to beat around the bush with me. And I just walk me through everything and I just think that was really beneficial and help me to sort of get outside my comfort zone a little bit and allowed me to do that [00:17:00] and encouraged me to do that.

[00:17:01] Not be reckless, but to get out there and take some calculated chances I guess.

[00:17:09] Guy: In your current role, Dan what are some of the challenges that you face, in the role that you're in now?

[00:17:16] Dan: I think the biggest challenge is one that we all talk about is is workforce development and this changing, changing situation we have and you know, when I came into the business, I think we were lucky to have jobs right now. Now we can't find enough people. And I think that's probably the number one challenge that we have 

[00:17:41] Guy: Oh, fair enough. So you talked about Empire being a member of ASFE. How were you exposed to ASFE as a precursor for GBA for those that may not remember that, but tell us about how you got involved in GBA.

[00:17:55] Dan: yeah, so I guess there's sort of two [00:18:00] connections. The first one was at Empire Soils where, I'd been there for three years and I. Charlie called me into his office one day and said, so I was only 25 years old at the time, and he said, I'm gonna enroll you in this class called Introduction to Professional Practice.

[00:18:17] And with Charlie, there really wasn't a whole lot of choice, nor was I gonna turn up my nose, an opportunity like that. So I said, all right, sounds good. I got onto IPP, which I guess became FOPP, fundamentals of professional practice somewhere along the line. And it just so happened that Ben Thompson, the owner of Empire Soils, worked with John Bachner on the development of the class.

[00:18:38] So I think it felt like maybe I was, I think it was class two or three. I'm not saying I was the Guinea pig, but I think they wanted to get somebody in. And here I was in the headquarters and. Seemed like a good person. So it was really good. And I just think it, for me, it opened like a whole new world for me.

[00:18:57] And, you know, I'd always wanted to be strong technically [00:19:00] that's what I was really focusing on those early years, right, is to know the analysis, to be strong technically, to understand the construction techniques and construction practices. And then I got exposed to loss prevention and it really opened my eyes to, wow, this is important.

[00:19:20] And the words we use in reports and, contracts and limitation of liability and legal situations, things that never even crossed my mind I was exposed to and I ate it up. That, that was my first introduction to ASFE and GBA and it really set the tone for, I guess for including all of that into all the other parts of the business, meaning having the technical background and then having this whole other.

[00:19:52] Business related knowledge and incorporating that into what we do.

[00:19:57] Guy: And then you've been continuously involved since that [00:20:00] point.

[00:20:00] Dan: Not really. So I left empire Soils and came to work at FNR in North Carolina. And we were a GBA member or ASFE member at the time, and then GBA member. I wasn't heavily involved. I got into field work and I was really just. Doing mostly operations work, and there were GBA materials floating around the office.

[00:20:20] We had audio tapes that we would listen to had lunch and learns and all that. So I was still engaged. But then our main liaison to GBA was retiring. I liked what GBA was selling at the time in terms of the. Really still loss prevention at that time.

[00:20:39] And this guy was retiring and I knew GBA went to great places. So I immediately volunteered. I want to be the GBA liaison. This was in 2002, I think. And so they said, okay, Dan, you can do it. And you're gonna go to a conference in California. And I never forget going home that night and walking in the door and my [00:21:00] wife and daughter were on the couch and I said, we're going to California honey.

[00:21:03] They looked at me both kind of cross-eyed, I guess like thinking like the Beverly Hillbillies. Like, we're moving to California. I was like no, we're not. We're not going to California. We're gonna a conference in California. Think it was the first conference I'D I had been to. So that, that's how it started.

[00:21:20] And I got involved with the CoMET committee and that's how it got started.

[00:21:25] Guy: That's cool. So let's shift the interview over to the geoprofession now.

[00:21:30] Just more broad trends that you've seen. So what have you seen in terms of change over your 35 career, 35 year career, Dan?

[00:21:39] Dan: Yeah. So a lot of things have changed and a lot of things haven't changed. Right. So I think that, you know, like some of the tests. We run we still drill test borings. We still do SPT. We still do, a lot of the CMT tests are the same, but I think what has changed the most is how we get that data [00:22:00] out of the field.

[00:22:01] Into the hands of the office, right. And, and out to the clients. And so we've seen tons of change in that regard. And we've also seen a ton of change, like in construction equipment, construction techniques, right? We have new foundation techniques. We have all this ground improvement stuff you know, different types of pile driving and pile drilling rigs, and just a lot of advancements in that area.

[00:22:29] But I think the biggest changes have probably been, technology and things like analysis. When I got started, all analysis was by hand, even I remember doing slope stability analysis by hand and so all that software and technology has just changed that for the better, right?

[00:22:45] It made us really more efficient things like design work, right? Not that. We did a lot of pure design work, but we were developing drawings and plans by hand, right hand drawn and now [00:23:00] we have CAD and things like that. So it's just, that's some pretty big changes over that time period.

[00:23:07] And then it's like word processing, he started writing reports by hand and there was one computer in the office. And people were dictating reports and the admin hated that. Right. You know, having to take those reports. So I think that now we're all writing our reports and we have this great software.

[00:23:23] So I just think that there's been a lot of change. Some of what we do is still the same, but how we do it and how we process it has improved quite a bit.

[00:23:32] Guy: So in terms of some of these core competencies for geoprofessionals, which ones do you think are still as relevant today as they were the day started?

[00:23:43] Dan: I think that just problem solving, evaluating different situations, just like decision making. I think that. That's still important today. I think it's always gonna be important. I don't know [00:24:00] if a machine, as of today, what I know today might say something different 20 years from now, but I just don't think machines are gonna be able to learn that.

[00:24:09] The judgment, engineering, judgment I still think it's gonna be important and communicating. I just think that this human to human communication. It's still relevant. We have much better ways to communicate if we decide to use them. We have a lot of tools now to communicate. I'm not sure if we always use them as well as we should, but I think that, I think commun obviously communication, whatever method we're using, you still have to do it.

[00:24:38] I don't think there's gonna be a replacement for that, and I think that's still relevant for sure.

[00:24:43] Guy: So do you see disruptions as you look forward for the industry, with regard to technology or you'd mentioned staffing and demographic shifts. What do you see there for these challenges?

[00:24:54] Dan: Yes. I think that I just think that the advances in technology, they're the big disruptor. I think [00:25:00] they're gonna help us. They may disrupt things, but I think that if we embrace them and learn them and use them properly, then they're gonna benefit us. There's AI, but what's the next disruptor?

[00:25:14] That one's just beginning, I guess, right? Or we're early on in AI, but there's gonna be something else. 'cause there's been so many along the way that we've experienced in our careers that I just think that we have to embrace them and work through it.

[00:25:29] Guy: So how about workforce? Dan you talked about workforce development earlier. What are your thoughts there in terms of where. You think that's heading?

[00:25:37] Dan: Yeah I think that we need to, well, we need to embrace technology to make us more efficient, but I think the use of more non-traditional staffing. Not everybody has to have a degree in civil engineering and just the greater use of paraprofessionals and just being more open-minded to [00:26:00] how we deliver our how we produce and how we deliver our work.

[00:26:05] Yes, there's probably gonna still be a need for licensed professionals. Things are gonna have to be stamped. Right? But does that mean that everybody that works on the project has to be an engineer? No. We're gonna have to come up with ways of bringing in more non-traditional people people with non-traditional backgrounds and incorporating them in our operations if we're gonna be successful. And I think a lot of us are trying to do that. I don't think that what we do is so complex from a technical standpoint or it's not brain surgery, what we're doing here.

[00:26:37] So I think that a lot of people can be taught the geoprofession and even the technical aspects of it. Do you have to be an engineer to know how to do settlement estimates for shallow foundations? Do you have to be an engineer to manage a construction services project?

[00:26:58] No.[00:27:00] 

[00:27:02] Guy: So those are things that I'm sure that we'll see pressure to broaden the folks that come into the profession, you call that diversity, you know, different backgrounds and approaches.

[00:27:12] Dan: I don't think technology can do it alone, right? I think it needs to be a combination of technology and being more open-minded to hiring good people that we can teach and we can train.

[00:27:24] Guy: So what do you, when you look ahead, Dan and just pick a number 10 years out what do you think the profession looks like at that point? You venture to

[00:27:32] prognosticate. 

[00:27:34] Dan: I think it's gonna look a lot like it looks now, Guy other than we're gonna be. I think, like I said earlier, I think a lot of the things we do are gonna stay the same. We're still gonna be running tests, we're gonna be drilling holes in the ground, but I think where we're gonna be is more advanced, for sure with things like AI and hopefully 10 years from now we [00:28:00] have, and of course, hope's not a plan, right?

[00:28:02] But, but hopefully 10 years from now we're gonna have gotten somewhere with this workforce crisis we find ourselves in now through the combination of what we've been talking about, like embracing technology and embracing staff that come from non-traditional backgrounds.

[00:28:21] I think that we can fit in well in our career, and in our industry. You know, 10 years from now, 

[00:28:28] Guy: So it sounds like leveraging the actual folks that are classically trained and registered engineers, et cetera with efficiencies of technology and maybe a broader, more diverse group of folks to support that.

[00:28:43] Dan: that's how I see it. Yep.

[00:28:44] Guy: Yeah, that's probably a safe bet. Well, that's great, Dan. So let's shift to the the next phase of our interview.

[00:28:51] We call this the speed round, but don't get nervous. You don't have to go super fast. It's just a collection of a couple of questions that I'm gonna ask you [00:29:00] and ask the same questions to all of our interviews and gives us some sort of, comparison across the industry. I love reading and I find the GBA folks are reading the most interesting thing.

[00:29:12] So what's your favorite book, Dan?

[00:29:15] Dan: Yeah I don't read a lot. When I do read, it's usually nonfiction and there's a lot of books by my bedstand nightstand, right. But I think my favorite book is one that my dad gave to me and someone at church recommended to me, and this was. At least 15 years ago, it was a book by Bill Bryson called A Short History of Nearly Everything.

[00:29:37] And I'm not sure if you know it, but

[00:29:39] Guy: I know it well. Bryson's awesome. 

[00:29:41] Dan: This broad overview of the universe and scientific discovery and making complex things easy to understand and like exploring some of the paradoxes of life and. It's a book about, about [00:30:00] science, but it really brings out, how delicate this world is and how delicate a balance it is and I think the reason someone at church suggests that I read the book is 'cause it almost has this spiritual, are we here by chance?

[00:30:17] Was there something divine involved? I don't know. But it makes you think and I think that's why I like that book a lot. So that's probably my favorite one, I guess of all time.

[00:30:30] Guy: Yeah, that's a good one. And bill Bryson's written a number of really interesting books. He has an interesting,

[00:30:36] Conversational style about some pretty meaty topics. okay. So based on all that you talked about you seem a little bit on the optimistic side, so I'm gonna ask you what's your optimism index?

[00:30:49] One being very pessimistic and five being optimistic. And this pertains to the geof.

[00:30:55] Dan: Yeah I'm a solid four. I don't I'm very [00:31:00] optimistic. I think that the future. It's gonna be really strong for our industry. Obviously we will have something to do with that in, in promoting our industry, but yeah, there's gonna be ups and downs, but if nothing else, we've shown through, at least through the course of my career, that this is a very resilient and adaptable industry.

[00:31:22] So I think things are, I think there's reason everyone should be optimistic.

[00:31:27] Guy: Yeah. That's great. Good to hear that. Well, congratulations on a great career, Dan. When you look at back at your career, and maybe you're not at that point where you're really looking back at your career, except for when I ask you these questions, but you know what do you think has been your biggest impact in your professional life?

[00:31:42] Is it a maybe a project or a client or, something you did within your company?

[00:31:48] Dan: I think it's, client building, which leads to office operation building. And that has been accomplished, I think just through [00:32:00] training and mentoring people. Which starts by leading by example. And I think that's my biggest contribution and, where I'm working now, I have a lot of people that I've hired or have come to work for us that have been here for a long time.

[00:32:16] And I think that's sort of, a little bit of validation that, what I've been doing is making an impact because this is a time when a lot of people aren't staying with their employers for long periods of time. So I think that showing people. How to, we're very busy. We have a lot going on and but trying to show people that even though there's a lot of noise in my life, whether it's work or home life that you can juggle a lot, but you need to focus on what you're doing now. You can't do two things well at the same time. So I think that I really tried to, 'cause people [00:33:00] can get overwhelmed by what they have going on and somehow you gotta put aside the noise. Focus on what's going on right now at this moment.

[00:33:08] And then get that done and then move on to the next thing. And I know it's not easy, but I just think that's something that I've tried to do

[00:33:15] Guy: And then we move on to the next thing and we forget to acknowledge the good thing we just finished.

[00:33:19] That's pretty typical in the industry it seems. Looking at the whole of your career arc, do you have any any things you would do differently? I won't even go so far as say regrets, but what, whys have you come to in the road where you had to choose to go right or left, and you maybe wonder what happened if you went the other way?

[00:33:36] Dan: Yeah, I think from a, like from a career standpoint, I'm very happy with the way it went and this is what I wanted it to be. I always wanted. From a soon as I got into working as a geoprofessional, I wanted to be a branch manager. And when I was a branch manager, I wanted to be a regional manager.

[00:33:54] So I think that's what happened. I think the thing that I wish would've happened [00:34:00] is I would've gotten more experience, more training in people management. So as I said earlier, I learned from Charlie who was tough, right? And he was a task master and he demanded a lot, right? And I embraced it.

[00:34:15] I loved that, right? He was direct, do this, boom. And so it all made sense to me. So when I started getting into branch management I thought everybody may react to that style well. And we all know that everybody's different people are motivated differently. ~Um, ~you can run people off with that style.

[00:34:32] I've learned a lot since then, but some of it has come through this hard knocks and I think that, I wish I would've had some more training at that point. And somebody said something to me early on that really was a light bulb moment for me was this was somebody, a geotechnical engineer that had been here a year or two, and he said, Dan.

[00:34:53] You'll get more out of me if you don't push me so hard. And I was like, wow. No one ever said that. [00:35:00] Yeah, no one said that. And because I'm a pretty empathetic person, and that was like this turning point for me of I really have to understand what motivates people and how they are treated, how they're managed and brought along and how we work together. And he's still with me 20 years later, so I'm glad he said it. And I thank him for that a lot. And so I think that's the one thing that I wish I would've focused on some more. I,

[00:35:26] Guy: That's that's a great little tale there that I think a lot of people could probably identify with.

[00:35:31] Dan: yeah.

[00:35:32] Guy: Okay, so final question, Dan. It's hard to believe that we're almost completed the interview. I've enjoyed engaging with you and I'd like to get longer, but we'll adhere to the norms of the podcast world. If you had one piece of advice, for those entering the geoprofession right now what would it be?

[00:35:51] Dan: There's a lot of advice I could give. I think the one thing that comes to mind. 'cause I see this in businesses we're so [00:36:00] busy. Is that if you get into an organization and maybe they don't have a mentoring program, or you're not assigned a mentor, find somebody that you respect and can learn from and attach yourself to them.

[00:36:17] I think that's really important to to have that person, or that could be people in your life and I think that it'll help your career as opposed to coming into an organization. They're very busy time for mentoring is probably short, and I just think that you don't want to get lost in an organization.

[00:36:36] So I think that if somebody doesn't step up to teach you, go find somebody. I that's one piece of advice. And of course, you know, stay humble and, seek to learn. And if you're uncomfortable getting out of your comfort zone. You need to, 'cause you're not gonna grow unless you do.

[00:36:53] I'm not saying jump out of your comfort zone. Right. But you gotta explore the margins. [00:37:00] If you're gonna, if you're going to succeed and learn.

[00:37:03] Guy: Well, that resonates with me, Dan. That's some good advice. I guess as we're wrapping up, is there anything else that you wanted to share with our audience today? 

[00:37:12] Dan: Yeah. Just that I think, being part of GBA has been a highlight of my career and I'm just really appreciative of being, able to tell my story and just, I think it's important in our business is to have fun along the way. I think, I like to have fun and I think that helps even out some of the challenging times.

[00:37:36] So I think that's the main thing is try to have fun in your career. As well as working hard and going through the challenges.

[00:37:44] Guy: Well said Dan. Listeners, thank you again for tuning in and listening to another GeoHero episode. Thank you, Dan, for a terrific interview and sharing your story with us today, and I hope everybody joins us for the next episode as well. [00:38:00]